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Robert Tibbo: Thank you for your patience
tonight. It was a little bit hectic in my
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getting here on time. So I do apologize.
But thank you for all being here tonight.
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Myself and the Snowden refugees, Mr.
Snowden, we really appreciate your
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attendance here. The people watching the
livestream and the support for my
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clients. And just very briefly, in case
there are a few people out there, I met
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Mr. Snowden in 2013, June in Hong Kong.
And that's when he made the globally
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significant disclosures of the Five Eyes
electronic mass surveillance program. And
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it was at that time that I represented Mr.
Snowden in Hong Kong. And thereafter. And
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it was also at that time that I asked for
brave adults, incredibly courageous adults
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who exercised decisions of conscience to
provide Mr. Snowden with a refuge, with
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shelter, humanity, compassion and caring.
And to introduce them again. Briefly,
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Vanessa, on the left, if you're facing the
screen from the Philippines to her right.
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To her left. A military deserter from Sri
Lanka. Nadeka from Sri Lanka. And on the
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far, far left supporting from Sri Lanka.
And these are the three children. On the
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bottom left is Keana, and beside her is
her stepsister, Satyamdi. And support is
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holding a little boy Dinath.
Applause
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What what I'm gonna do this evening before
providing a brief update on the Snowden
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refugee status. I'm gonna go through a bit
of law, I think, at this stage. There's
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been such marginalization, demonization,
confusion about what refugees are and
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what, you know, what is required to
qualify as a refugee. I'm gonna go through
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a number of international law and at the
same time. Beyond that, I'm gonna go
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through what's happening globally and in
my view, where we're really at a crisis in
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terms of authoritarian leaders
democratically elected and ignoring their
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constitutions, violating them, blatantly
ignoring international law. So very
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briefly, I've just listed some of the most
crucial or core conventions that protect
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human rights from the U.N. Universal
Declaration of Human Rights to the UN
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Convention Against Torture. And of course,
the UN Convention relating to the Status
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of Refugees and its protocol. I'm also
mentioning the Rome Statute of the
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International Criminal Court, because this
is a court where this court itself is now
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being attacked by states around the world,
nations around the world. I'm also
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mentioning customary international law,
which is an international norm, where due
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to practice, the practice becomes so
pervasive that countries no need, no
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longer need to sign up to an international
treaty. That treaty becomes part of
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customary law. It doesn't have to be
written anywhere. Now, the core document
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I'm going to discuss is the Refugee
Convention and Article 33 and some are sub
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paragraph one is the core. It's the core
part of refugee protection and that is no
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state shall expel return. And the legal
word is refoul means to return. So no
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state is going to should return any
refugee. And that also includes any
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refugee claimant out of their jurisdiction
where their life or freedom are at risk,
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and that the life and freedom also
includes any serious harm. And there
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are five fundamental grounds to secure
refugee status, race, religion,
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nationality and political opinion. These
are the classical four. There's a fifth
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called social group. And it's not a
closed end category. It's actually open
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ended because as you know, over time, we
recognize that different human rights
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abuses occur affecting different social
groups that don't fall into the four
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classic categories. So just a review
just to interpret Article 33. As I
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mentioned, liberty and life also includes
serious harm. It's a forward looking test.
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So if an asylum seeker or refugee crosses
a border into another country, they don't
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need to prove that they actually suffered
any harm or any threats or any risks or
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any threats or harms or loss of liberty or
serious harm before they leave their
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jurisdiction into another jurisdiction.
That person has to show they're unable or
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unwilling to seek help from the police or
the state. And that's quite often the case
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because of corruption or the state itself
is the persecutor. And there must be a
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nexus to one of the five grounds. I'm
going to focus on political opinion and
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political opinion can be expressed by an
individual verbally through their physical
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actions. The presence with others and
political opinion is connected to the
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right of freedom of expression. And one
thing I would stress is that freedom of
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expression under the law is not just your
right to say something. It's also your
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right to receive information, to be
present, to be able to hear and listen or
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record. And the freedom of expression
connects fundamentally to freedom of
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association, assembly and mobility. Lot of
people misunderstand that persecution for
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political opinion is the persecutor. Is
that the opinion comes from the persecuted
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person. In fact. The Refugee Convention
clearly states, it is the opinion of the
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persecutor that counts. So, for example,
I've had clients from South Asia. One case
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was of a farmer who just had no political
opinion, but was at a rally in a public
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place and just was standing on a corner
and was unaware there was a political
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opponent standing near him. Those in power
saw my client. Inferred that my client
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must be supporting the opposition. And
from that day onward, persecuted him,
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burned down his house, destroyed his farm
and he fled for his life. So the legal
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test is the opinion or the perception of
the persecutory. Now, I'd like to go to
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the social group category. This is really
important, because this relates to some of
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my clients and in particular the Snowden
refugees. And a social group is a
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particular group of people that are
connected or linked through a shared
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characteristic or there's a perception by
society that they, you know, having
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certain characteristics that they form a
group. These characteristics are typically
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historical and relate fundamentally to an
individual's identity and conscience.
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Usually they're unchangeable. And if
they're not unchangeable, that person
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should not have to change those character
characteristics, because they are
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fundamental to their identity or
conscience. If they can be changed, they
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still should not be changed because
they're linked to that person's
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fundamental exercise of human rights. The
Snowden refugees fall into the social
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group category. Aside from having claims
with Hong Kong and the Canadian government
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under political opinion for supporting
helping Mr. Snowden, they form the unique
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social group that I think everyone in the
world recognizes. They are the Snowden
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refugees and the social group are
individuals that protect whistleblowers.
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That's the social category.
Applause
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One thing I'll stress is that we hear
about whistleblowers and public support
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for whistleblowers, not protection. Public
support for journalists to carry out their
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duties. Quite often working or reporting,
what whistleblowers want to disclose. But
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there is not enough in, in terms of legal
applications, there's not enough in terms
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of public awareness, the importance of the
average individual on the street, anybody
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on the street who may one day be faced
with, what the Snowden refugees were faced
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with and make extraordinary decisions of
conscience to help a whistleblower. I'm
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mentioning the CAT Convention, the United
Nations Convention of Torture. Torture is
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a non-derogable right. It's not to be
tortured is a non-derogable right. There
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is no circumstances that exist that can
justify any state or private party
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torturing an individual. And I also
mentioned the International Covenant on
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Civil and Political Rights and 3, 3 core
rights here are the right to life and that
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it should not be arbitrarily taken.
Tortures repeated here, but also cruel,
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inhuman or degrading treatment or
punishment. And this is a a non-derogable
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right. No one should ever be subjected to
this. And then the last one I'm going to
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mention, I apologize, is liberty and
security in particular, arbitrary arrest
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and arbitrary detention. And as we see
globally today, countries around the world
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where there's mass protests against
government corruption, government abuses,
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a lack of freedoms. Governments are
arbitrarily using arbitrary arrest and
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detention to make people disappear. To
shut them up. No need to mention or point
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to the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. And in there, as well as Article
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31 of the Refugee Convention, that every
refugee claimant has an absolute right to
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cross a border if they're at risk of
losing their liberty, their life or
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serious harm. And unfortunately, we're
living in a world today where countries
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and around the world are putting up walls
that are real, walls that are virtual.
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Because they do not want to address or
comply with their international
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obligations to help the most vulnerable.
And what nation states are doing is
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they're using propaganda, inaccurate
information, false information to
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criminalize legitimate asylum seekers and
refugees, to try to categorize them as
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illegal immigrants, economic migrants. And
with all of this, we're seeing an erosion
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of international law and constitutional
law. And one area where nations have been
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very clever is they've been using the
strategy of constructive refoulement. Now
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refoulement means to return. And in Hong
Kong, for example, the government achieves
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constructive refoulement, which basically
means, they create an environment that
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makes it intolerable for an individual to
remain in that jurisdiction. And that in
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the end, that person's mental and physical
integrity is so compromised, they make a
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decision to return their home country to
take a risk. So whether they're going to
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live or die or lose their liberty or not.
So in Hong Kong, for example, the
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government does not provide full
humanitarian assistance. They criminalize
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work. There's no education allowed for
adults. And employment is prohibited so
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that there's no way for the individual to
be making money or participating in a
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meaningful way in society. And in the end,
that person becomes so compromised, they
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decide to leave. The governments create
these circumstances to violate their
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constitutional rights, international equal
rights, by making them leave, by making
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the circumstances intolerable. You're
seeing a global trend of criminalization
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and ill treatment of asylum seekers.
You've seen similar legislative and policy
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and propaganda frameworks in Austria,
Denmark and Hungary. We've all seen the
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asylum seekers who've lost their lives
crossing the Mediterranean. In the United
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States we've seen separation of children
separated from families, a tactic used by
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the US government. The children held in
detention centers, deprived of blankets,
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soap, toothpaste, a lack of monitoring and
care for the welfare and health of these
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children. Some have died and more
recently. And this is a tactic also used
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by the Hong Kong government, but in a
different way. Asylum seekers who are
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outside the U.S. jurisdiction, the
immigration officers put incorrect
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addresses recorded in the system, so that
they cannot receive legal notifications
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from the U.S. government. You've seen the
same thing in Hong Kong. I know firsthand.
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I've seen asylum seekers go to the
immigration and removal assessment
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section, try to hand in a document stating
that they're raising a claim as a
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protection claimant for refugee status or
torture. And there are security guards at
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the door that basic that tell them go
away. It's not acceptable. Not immigration
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officers. And if they do manage to submit
raising their refugee asylum claims, I've
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I've had too many clients, who've been
told you're not using the right words to
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raise a claim that you're afraid you're
gonna die or you're afraid you're going to
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be hurt. So these are tactics that deny,
what I would describe, the due process
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rights of these votes, this vulnerable
groups. And I do want to mention Thailand
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in terms of the treatment of asylum
seekers. And that they have found mass
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graves in Thailand has been complicit in
human trafficking of the Rohingya. Now,
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there's a few quotes I'd like to to read,
and this is from the former U.N. high
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commissioner for Human Rights. And it was
right for us -not just to have remembered
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Mandela's greatness, but to have almost
unconsciously contrasted it with all the
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narrow politicians, who continue to
proliferate across the face of the world.
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Authoritarian in nature, many of them are
wily political in-fighters, but most are
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of the thin mind and faint humanity, prone
to fan division and intolerance. And just
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for the sake of securing their political
ambition, while some do this more openly
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than others, all are well aware what they
practice comes at the expense of
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vulnerable humans. And the U.N. high
commissioner goes on to state to them, I
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say you may seize power or stubbornly hold
onto it, by playing on and stoking the
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fears of your followers. You may
congratulate yourselves for this and you
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may think yourself so clever for it. But
we know all you've done is to copy the
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behavior of previous generations of once
strong but ultimately catastrophic,
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leaders and politicians. Yours will, in
the end, become a mouse like global
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reputation, never the fine example of the
leader you think you are, and never even
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close to a Mandela.
Applause
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To deserve global respect, you must begin
to follow his example---committing to the
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spirit and letter of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. Hong Kong
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does not recognize the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. Hong Kong
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doesn't recognize the UN convention
relating to the Status of Refugees.
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Michelle Bachelet, the current U.N. high
commissioner, she stated early this year
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"the report outlines our efforts to assist
States to uphold all human rights, at a
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time when humanity faces many serious
challenges. These include the existential
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threat of climate change; technological
developments: unbearable civilian
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suffering in multiple armed conflicts,
displacement, youth unemployment,
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structural economic injustices, xenophobia
and hate speech, and -- a focus on my
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statement today --- gross inequalities".
Me specially continues focusing on these
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inequalities and I'm just going to read at
the bottom. Yet in several cases they are
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being met with violent and excessive use
of force, arbitrary detentions, torture,
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even alleged summary extrajudicial
killings. People are protesting. People
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are protesting at the behavior of
government and authoritarian leaders. And
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I put my mind to how to describe what's
going on. And in the best way I've been
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able to describe it is, that these
authoritarian leaders, democratic,
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elected, have become unhinged,
disconnected from from the populace. And
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most recently, especially as talked about
global protests, and she stated just a few
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months ago, I fear that we are moving
farther away, further away from the global
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solutions to the global problems due to
two clear trends that are taking us in the
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opposite directions. Today, in places with
very different circumstances, level of
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development and political situations,
we're seeing an outpouring of popular
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discontent and mass protests or their
suppression with the firm hand of the
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state in every region. And Hong Kong is
included in here and I'll just part move
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forward. We see the desperate need for
dialog. The use of unnecessary and
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disproportionate force
against people holding dissenting views
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and arrests of individuals exercising
their rights to freedom of expression and
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peaceful assembly can only exacerbate
tensions, seriously undermining the space
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for dialog. In my view, we are in crisis.
There is a global crisis. What I thought I
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would do is to give some tangible examples
through the casework I do. Narendra Modi.
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His platform has been Hindu nationalism,
and that's been at the expense of
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religious minorities and ethnic minorities
in India. In particular, the Muslim
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population. And what Modi has done and
this is this is a thread that runs through
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what happens in other jurisdictions,
including Hong Kong, is when you have
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nationalism and minorities are targeted by
the government or they're discriminated
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against. Third parties in the private
sector or related to politicians act on
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their own. And when the state allows that
to happen, we call that state
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acquiescence. And in India, that's what
we're seeing. Back here. Recently, there
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was a deprivation of citizenship of 1.9
million people in Assam state, an
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arbitrary act by Modi's government. And as
of last week, there was a new bill enacted
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into law, granting citizenship to Hindus,
Buddhists and Christians from certain
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Southeast Asian countries. But it excludes
Muslims and it also excludes the Sri
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Lankan Tamils, for which there is a huge
number of refugees, who had fled from Sri
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Lanka. And what Modi has done is all
contrary to Article 15 up to 28, and
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that's prohibition of
discrimination based on religion, race and
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place of birth. The tactics used by
governments today in doing what Modi has
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done, it's being used all over the world.
The executive branch for the legislator
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legislature passes legislation that's
unconstitutional and it may take a year or
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two or three years before a court strikes
it down. But during that gap period, those
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people who are discriminated against or
persecuted suffer. Often they have to flee
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their homes. They had to flee their
country or they're hurt or they're killed.
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So this is another way that democratically
elected leaders are utilizing the
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government and the legal system to strip
away constitutional rights and rights
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under international law. Sri Lanka,
extraordinarily good by Rajapaksa, accused
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of war crimes, crimes against humanity and
genocide, was elected as Sri Lanka's new
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president just a month ago. In 1987 to
1988, 1990, he was the commanding officer
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in charge of the Mottola district, where
about eight years ago they found mass
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graves. In 2009, he was accused of war
crimes, crimes against humanity and
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genocide. At the end of the war bombing,
hospitals, civilian hospitals where they
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were Tamils, actually judicial killings,
summary executions. And the
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platform of Rutter Rajapaksa was based on
ethnicity and nationalism. And the
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Philippines. Duterte came to power in
2016. It was on the platform that he would
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carry out mass extrajudicial killings
against drug addicts and drug traffickers.
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He had done that when he was mayor of
Davao City in southern Philippines. And in
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June 2016, when he took power as president
of the country, he did exactly that to
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over 20.000 Philipinos executed. The
president, the Philippines, the government
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have threatened NGO, human rights
activists, ethnic minorities, Catholic
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Church and even U.N. special rapporteurs.
And stunningly Duterte was actually
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filmed. This was televised, where he in
his campaign and basically committing
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crimes against humanity. He said "If
Germany had Hitler, the Philippines would
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have. He said, pausing and pointing to
himself. Hitler massacred three million
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Jews. There's three million drug addicts,
there are. I'd be happy to slaughter them.
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And a year later, Donald Trump
congratulated Duterte on his war on drugs.
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U.N. Special Rapporteur on the rights of
indigenous people, Victoria Tauli-Corpuz.
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She fled the jurisdiction because the tar
tape put her on a her name on a terrorist
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list. This is about state acquiescence to
human rights violations when a government
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puts an individual's name on a list. And
what happened in the Philippines? Private
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parties took the law into their own hands
and executed a number of people,
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assassinated them. So that was the fear
for the UN special rapporteur, and she
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fled the jurisdiction. Complaints were
filed with the International Criminal
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Court for crimes against humanity against
Duterte. And also this UN special
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rapporteur, Agnes Kellerman on summary and
extradition killings. Both the
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International Criminal Court prosecutor
was threatened by Duterte and also the UN
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Special Rapporteur. Most significantly,
the ICC prosecutor was threatened with
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arrest, if she came to the Philippines to
investigate. She'd be assaulted and she'd
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be killed. She'd be fed to the crocodiles.
Philippines officially withdrew from the
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International Criminal Court, but that
still does not protect President Duterte.
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Duterte may have committed possible war
crimes. I've mentioned a few here,
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particularly calling for horrific crimes
to be committed against women. And the
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People's Republic of China has been a
great supporter of Duterte today, and it's
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understood that, because of the provisions
under the Rome Statute for the
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International Criminal Court, that Duterte
would not be prosecuted. China would use
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its veto power in the International
Criminal Court to prevent any prosecution
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of him. Again, this is an example of how
states are interfering with violating or
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making international law useless. The
People's Republic of China, the most
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pressing example are the current
concentration or detention camps in China.
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Of the Uighur Muslims, and despite the
China cable, satellite images and
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witnesses, China denies that they've
arbitrarily arrested, arbitrarily detained
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and disappeared over a million from
[unaudible] Xinjiang provice.
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I'd like to mention Hong Kong
very briefly, and Hong Kong has had a
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history of violating its own constitution
and international law. From the Sami al-
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Saadi extraordinary rendition, where Hong
Kong deprived Mr. Saudi of all his due
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process rights and its protections under
international law and handed him over the
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UK and U.S. government on a rendition
flight in 2004. And that was the incident
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that put fear that made, that gave me
great concern when Mr. Snowden was in Hong
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Kong, that the Hong Kong government could
not be trusted to uphold its constitution,
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to uphold international law. 2014 Occupy
protests, Ken Tsang, a politician. He was
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hold tied, hands tied behind his back and
his legs and tortured by the police, and
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it was caught on video and these officers
were convicted, but then they compared
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them, the police compared themselves to
being persecuted as the Jewish people had
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during the Holocaust. And that's on video
that's been publicly recorded. And 2018
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Allen Lee and Ray Wong fled Hong Kong in
fear for their liberty and their and their
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safety, and they were granted refugee
status by the German government, which was
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the right thing to do. And this caused a
lot of outrage of the Hong Kong government
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and Beijing. And right now we have the
Hong Kong protests, including arbitrary
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arrest, arbitrary detention, cruel and
inhuman or degrading treatment and
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punishment, torture, enforced
disappearances, cases of rape by the
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police and actual extrajudicial killings.
I'm going to skip this. I still have
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clients, my clients in Hong Kong, Snowden
refugees, and fortunately this March,
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March of this year, Vanessa O'Dell and her
daughter Keana safely arrived in Canada,
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having been granted refugee status.
Applause
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This was a seven and a half year battle,
seven and a half years, and one thing I'll
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say is that so many people gave up, so
many people said to me, you're not going
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to win. It's taken too long. What? Why
don't you just move on with other cases?
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Anyways, I believed that we'd be
successful. And we have.
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Applause
Keana, in this photo, this is Keana on her
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father's lap. And her father is still in
Hong Kong with her brother and sister.
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Satyam de and Denath, and we would like to
see this family being reunited in Canada
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and we're asking Canada to act fast, as
fast as possible. She has a sister who
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only thinks about in Hong Kong something,
who only thinks about being reunited with
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Keana in Montreal. And at this time, with
the with the police abuses, the government
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abuses in Hong Kong Sethumdi she has been
traumatized and she suffered permanent
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damage. The whole family is afraid. They
live in fear and they are at heightened
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risk with the lawlessness in Hong Kong.
The lawlessness by the Hong Kong police. I
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just want to share this picture, which was
taken by Jane Russell in August this year.
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This is the Hong Kong Police Tactical Unit
in Fanling. And you'll notice that there's
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no Hong Kong flag. And Jane Russell,
photojournalist, pointed this out. And it
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was at that point we all realized that the
hand of Beijing was apparently acting
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directly inside Hong Kong. Directing the
Hong Kong police. What's happened in Hong
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Kong, is the same thing that you see in
Sri Lanka, in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India,
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where the government allows the police to
commit abuses state sanctioned or the
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police commit abuses and the government
turns a blind eye. And that amounts to
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state acquiescence. And what's happened in
Hong Kong is, what you see classically in
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Sri Lanka or the Philippines, where third
private parties take the law into their
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own hands and go after innocent civilians
or peaceful protesters. Hong Kong has
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become a very dangerous place today. And
my clients lives are at risk, at a
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heightened risk. I thought I would share
this image taken by Keana's father of
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[inaudible] during the protests.
And this is what these children are
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growing up in this kind of environment
right now. Where really where they should
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be, is in this environment. And this is
Vanessa and Keana in Montreal, Quebec, not
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just earlier this month. Now, what I'd
like to do in saying that is I'd like to
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invite Mr. Snowden to join us. Dom. Check.
Edward Snowden: Can anyone hear me? Thank
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you.
Applause
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We have very little time. So let me first
give thanks to Robert Tibbo. I know it's
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not always fun for Rudy to sit through,
what is effectively a long lecture about
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what's wrong with the world. But these
things matter and it's important that we
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remember how they get better. I've been
thinking a lot this year and writing my
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book, Permanent Record and after about the
state of the world and the direction of
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our future.
laughing
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I trust that each of you will understand
that in 2019 this was not an especially
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enjoyable activity, but it's necessary.
And one of the bright spots for me in this
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increasingly dark world has been the fact
that people like you, that CCC has
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supported these families over the last few
years. They made a difference for me.
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Think think about, what would have
happened if I wouldn't have been able to
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get off the street. Think about what might
have happened to me. I think about the
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fact that I wouldn't be able to talk to
you today and all these years since the
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book that I wrote would not exist. It
might seem like a small thing, you know,
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to you, to it to give a donation to help
out. But I believe that it really has
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genuinely changed the future of these
brave families in a positive way. And so
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when I'm thinking about everything that's
broken in the world. It got me thinking
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about the lessons that can be taken from
them and how they fit into a larger
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framework. We have pretty limited time
here. So I'm going to do something a
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little bit unusual to try to summarize and
read a little passage from the book. What
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makes a life? It's more than what we say.
More even than what we do. A life is also
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about what we love and what we believe in.
For me, what I love and believe in the
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most is connection, human connection and
the technologies by which that's achieved.
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Those technologies include books, of
course. But for my generation, connection
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has largely met the Internet. Now, before
a lot of you recoil, knowing how broken
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the Internet, the toxic madness that's all
over it. I understand that for me, as it
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was for, I believe many of you, when I
came to know it. The Internet was a very
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different thing. It was a friend and a
parent. It was a community without borders
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or limit. One voice and millions, a common
frontier that had been settled, but not
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exploited by diverse tribes living
amicably enough side by side. Each member
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which was free to choose their own name
and history and culture. Everyone wore
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masks. And yet this culture of anonymity
through polyanomy produced more truth and
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falsehood, because it was creative and
cooperative rather than commercial and
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competitive. Certainly there was conflict,
but it was outweighed by goodwill and good
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feelings. The true pioneering spirit.
You'll understand why I say, that the
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internet today is in many ways
unrecognizable. It's worth noting that
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this change has been a conscious choice,
the result of a systematic effort on the
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part of a privileged few. The early rush
to turn commerce into e-commerce quickly
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led to a bubble and then, just after the
term of the millennium, to a collapse.
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After that, companies realized that people
who went online were far less interested
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in spending than in sharing, and that the human
connection, the internet made possible,
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could be monetized. If most of what people
wanted to do online, was to be able to
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tell their family and their friends and
strangers what they were up to and to be
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told what their family, friends and
strangers were up to in return, then all
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companies had to do to figure out how to
put them was figure out how to put
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themselves in the middle of those social
exchanges and turn them into profit. This
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was the beginning of surveying capitalism
and the end of the Internet, as I know it
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now. It was the creative web that
collapsed as countless beautiful,
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difficult, individualized web sites were
shuttered. The promise of convenience led
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people to exchange their personal sites,
which demanded constant and laborious
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upkeep. As you are known for a Facebook
page and a Gmail account, the appearance
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of ownership was easy to mistake for the
reality of it. But few of us understood it
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at the time. None of the things that we go
on to share would belong to us anymore.
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The successors to the emerge commerce
companies that had failed because they
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couldn't find anything to sell, that we
were interested in. They now had a new
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product to sell, and that product was us,
our attention, our activities, our
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locations, our desires, everything about
us, that we revealed knowingly or
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unknowingly, with or without consent, was
being surveilled and sold in secret so as
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to delay the inevitable feeling violation
that is for most of us arriving now. And
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this surveillance would go on to be
actively encouraged and even funded by an
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army of governments greedy for the vast
volume of intelligence that they would
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gain from these practices. Aside from logins
and financial transactions, hardly any
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communications were encrypted in the early
twenty aughts, which meant that in many
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cases governments didn't need to even
bother approaching the companies that were
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running these platforms in order to know
what their customers were doing. They
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could just spy on the world without
telling a soul. And now I ask you, is this
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what the world should look like and how
did this come to be? We were there. We
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were watching, and we thought we
controlled the system. We thought we ran
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the system. We thought it was our
Internet. But here we are. Surveillance,
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after all, is less about safety than it is
about control. And when you look around at
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the union of technical and political
systems today, it seems that they intend
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less to serve us than for us to serve
them. And it's funny talking about this at
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CCC, because to me it it feels like a
hack. You know what is hacking, I'm sure,
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all you guys have different definitions.
But in my definition, it's not just
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programing. Of course, we wouldn't see
terms like bio hacking. Hacking is about
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rules and the distance between how they
are believed to operate and how they
401
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:03,230
operate in fact. Hacking for me means,
coming to understand a system better than
402
00:43:03,230 --> 00:43:10,960
its creators or its operators and using
that understanding to produce impossible
403
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:19,530
results, unexpected behavior. Thanks so
much. Now we'd like to think about hacks
404
00:43:19,530 --> 00:43:25,560
in a positive light, but in the case of
these last few decades, it's our society
405
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,160
that was hacked. It is the whole of our
network. It is the Internet itself, that
406
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:38,010
they exploit. And you see that. That's the
thing. The choices that we make and the
407
00:43:38,010 --> 00:43:47,850
things that you do. They have power and
doing nothing, that that's a choice. Now,
408
00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:53,740
a lot of us like to think it's a willing
choice. We'd like to think that we're the
409
00:43:53,740 --> 00:43:58,031
sole captains of our own destiny. And
that's the way it's supposed to be. That's
410
00:43:58,031 --> 00:44:03,120
the way it was intended. That's the way we
designed the system. And yet the system
411
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:09,260
today. Somehow the actors within it spend
an enormous amount of energy trying to
412
00:44:09,260 --> 00:44:14,680
make you forget, that the things you do
affect the outcome. They'll tell you not
413
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,780
to worry about it. That that it's not so
bad after all. You know, it could be
414
00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:28,010
worse. But I say to you, it could be
better. And every time we hear those
415
00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:34,310
words, that's what we need to say. Every
system in history, even the most powerful,
416
00:44:34,310 --> 00:44:42,830
has been subject to change. And every hack
that is performed against us, can face a
417
00:44:42,830 --> 00:44:50,880
patch and more in all of the trouble to
which these people have gone, to to make
418
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,910
the people broadly forget their own power,
they have forgotten something that I think
419
00:44:55,910 --> 00:45:06,010
is fundamental. We can hack back. They run
the system. They may have won today. But
420
00:45:06,010 --> 00:45:09,340
I've been thinking about this, look, we
all know the history and it has been a
421
00:45:09,340 --> 00:45:17,020
dark time. But I'm here today in front of
you to say that tomorrow will be ours.
422
00:45:17,020 --> 00:45:22,880
Change is coming and it is coming from
people who pay attention. People who care.
423
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:28,040
It will come from people like you, who
took the time out of the day, out of their
424
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,490
lives. The money out of their pocket to
travel. The time, the minutes of your life
425
00:45:32,490 --> 00:45:42,140
to be here today, standing in solidarity,
talking, learning, sharing to show that
426
00:45:42,140 --> 00:45:51,070
this broken world could very well be
better. We can change it. We can change
427
00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:57,910
everything. One system, one rule at a
time. Thank you.
428
00:45:57,910 --> 00:46:31,130
Applause
I just hope it's not kind of I no longer
429
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:33,770
have audio, so I'm afraid I won't be able
to.
430
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:37,560
Robert Tibbo: Ed, we've got Vanessa on the
screen, half the screen with you right
431
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:44,560
now. And she's, uh, she's on video live
from Montreal. And can you...
432
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:51,330
ES: Just if it's not clear I can't do
anything even so, I'm a bystander now. I'm
433
00:46:51,330 --> 00:47:00,710
going to go to the stream and hopefully
Robert and Vanessa can help us for the Q&A
434
00:47:00,710 --> 00:47:09,640
RT: Ed, do you want to do a Q&A right now
or do you want to. They've lost that. All
435
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:19,650
right, so, yeah. So Vanessa's in Montreal
and I've invited here her here today. And
436
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:26,610
so why don't we just start with a Q and A?
This is this is really it's Vanessa's
437
00:47:26,610 --> 00:47:32,940
first year after a decade and a half of
being under very difficult circumstances.
438
00:47:32,940 --> 00:47:45,280
Applause
Herald: Also, you know the drill. We have
439
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,330
microphones in the halls. Please line up
behind them. If you have question for a
440
00:47:49,330 --> 00:47:56,830
Robert Tibbo or Vanessa and hopefully Mr.
Snowden will join us again, I think we're
441
00:47:56,830 --> 00:48:04,900
working out the background. Do we have
questions from the Internet so far? Yes,
442
00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:08,900
that is the case. So, Signal-Engel, please
give us a question.
443
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:12,220
Signal-Angel: Do you think that
whistleblowing could have prevented
444
00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:17,280
fascist received regimes in the past and
that it will be more important in the near
445
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:26,970
future for the same reason?
RT: Questions for me, I'm assuming.
446
00:48:26,970 --> 00:48:34,740
Whistleblowing has always occurred in the
past and it has brought about change.
447
00:48:34,740 --> 00:48:40,400
Historically there, you know, there are
recorded cases, but the difficulties in
448
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,710
the past were the lack of protections.
Quite often in whistleblowers had to leave
449
00:48:45,710 --> 00:48:52,780
the jurisdiction. They would end up being
killed. And and really, it's only in
450
00:48:52,780 --> 00:48:59,520
recent history and in particular with with
Edward Snowden's whistleblowing, that
451
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:05,690
governments around the world, including
the European Union as a whole, recognize
452
00:49:05,690 --> 00:49:12,280
that there needs to be change. There needs
to be more protections. But we're also
453
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,620
seeing that nations are providing enhanced
whistleblower protections. But on the
454
00:49:17,620 --> 00:49:23,230
commercial civil side and they're still
lagging significantly, where there's
455
00:49:23,230 --> 00:49:28,630
whistleblowing outing governments that
behave egregiously or criminally, as in
456
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:36,620
Mr. Snowden's case. So more than ever,
whistleblowing will remain and will
457
00:49:36,620 --> 00:49:41,860
continue to be a crucial part of ensuring
government accountability and
458
00:49:41,860 --> 00:49:47,270
transparency. But for whistleblowers to
step forward, a couple of things have to
459
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:52,880
happen. Society needs to be stepping up
and demanding government that there be
460
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:59,280
protections for whistleblowers,
particularly like Mr. Snowden. And
461
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:08,320
secondly, we've seen the government go
after with the Snowden refugees and made
462
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:16,510
their lives intolerable. There exists in
existence intolerable in Hong Kong and the
463
00:50:16,510 --> 00:50:22,950
delay of so many years to get Vanessa and
Keana on the screen now into Canada and
464
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:28,750
the other families here in Hong Kong, who
are suffering right now, was the the
465
00:50:28,750 --> 00:50:36,330
global leadership saying, don't protect a
whistleblower, because this is what's
466
00:50:36,330 --> 00:50:44,070
gonna happen to you. So I hope that
Vanessa and Keana's arrivaled refuge in
467
00:50:44,070 --> 00:50:49,580
Canada to safety and security, is an
example for the whole world that there
468
00:50:49,580 --> 00:50:53,650
will be more whistleblowers. But there
also needs to be people in the general
469
00:50:53,650 --> 00:50:59,480
population who say, look, we need to
support them and to take steps to make
470
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,430
whistle, make sure whistleblowers can
remain safe, but also when democratic
471
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:09,200
systems to put pressure on government, to
make changes and whistleblower
472
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,440
protections.
Signal-Angel: Thank you a lot for the
473
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,330
detailed answer. We have some more
questions. But before we continue with
474
00:51:16,330 --> 00:51:21,270
them, I would like to ask all of you to
stay seated and stay quiet. Some people
475
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:25,820
are leaving already the hall. Please
don't. And please stay quiet so we can
476
00:51:25,820 --> 00:51:31,510
enjoy the last minutes of this lovely Q
and A. You can also ask questions to
477
00:51:31,510 --> 00:51:37,810
Vanessa, who played a crucial role in
sheltering Mr. Snowden back in Hong Kong.
478
00:51:37,810 --> 00:51:43,220
And for now, I would like to hear a
question from microphone number three.
479
00:51:43,220 --> 00:51:49,440
Mic 3: Hi. I'm [inaudible] Hi, I'm a Pakistani
journalist in exile. So thank you for the
480
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:57,200
talk. It's been super inspiring. My
question to Vanessa is that looking back
481
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,520
now that you everything that you suffer.
Would you say that if you were given a
482
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:08,300
choice, that you could do this all over
again and not do this at all? Would you?
483
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:49,890
Which one would you choose?
Vanessa: If I had the chance again [inaudible]
484
00:52:49,890 --> 00:53:01,990
Applause
Herald: Can we have another question from
485
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:07,230
the Internet?
Signal-Angel: It's a question for Vanessa.
486
00:53:07,230 --> 00:53:35,920
How are you settling down in Montreal and
has the community received you well?
487
00:53:35,920 --> 00:54:14,760
Vanessa: inaudible
Herald: Thank you for this answer. Do we
488
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:19,430
have more questions in the hall? I sat at
a microphone and I can't see you right
489
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:26,210
now. Please wink if you do. I think that's
not the case. Signal-Angel. Do we have one
490
00:54:26,210 --> 00:54:31,500
more question from you? Or wait?
Microphone number two, please go ahead.
491
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:36,290
Mic. 2: I don't know which one of you can
answer that, but what's causing the delay?
492
00:54:36,290 --> 00:54:40,391
Why is the families still separated? Is
there any indication why Canada doesn't
493
00:54:40,391 --> 00:54:45,160
process the search for asylum?
RT: *To an Angel: I want to put this on
494
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:55,620
last. OK?
RT: The Snowden refugee cases, it has been
495
00:54:55,620 --> 00:55:05,450
a long delay and it's been too long. And
at this stage, the Canadian government is
496
00:55:05,450 --> 00:55:14,830
is progressing with the cases and these
are complex cases. At this stage, that's
497
00:55:14,830 --> 00:55:21,180
all I can really say. We all want the
other families supporting the DEKA, the
498
00:55:21,180 --> 00:55:25,070
two children, Kiena's brother and sister.
And we want to treat this, the former
499
00:55:25,070 --> 00:55:30,760
soldier, and we want them in Canada. We
want them in at the earliest time. And
500
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,730
this is really the only solution. It's the
right solution for the these extraordinary
501
00:55:34,730 --> 00:55:37,620
people. Applaus
Mic 2: Thank You.
502
00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:46,920
Applause
So apparently we have Edward Snowden
503
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,030
back.The connection is established again.
There is a question for him, then he's run
504
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:54,960
to a microphone because that's your only
chance. That's probably the last question
505
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,930
of this session. Microphone number four,
what's your question? Qualified?
506
00:55:59,930 --> 00:56:05,690
Mic. 4: Yes, I think so. What an aura.
Thought. Thank you, everybody. My question
507
00:56:05,690 --> 00:56:14,610
quick. So, Mr. Snowden, you said we should
put pressure and make change. And do you
508
00:56:14,610 --> 00:56:20,890
think we should pressure our own
government locally or that we pressure our
509
00:56:20,890 --> 00:56:26,330
government to pressure other governments?
So, for example, which sanctions through
510
00:56:26,330 --> 00:56:30,650
these countries that Mr. Tibbo mentioned?
That's a quick.
511
00:56:30,650 --> 00:56:40,550
ES: Yes. I think we need to look at where
can we be the most effective. This is a
512
00:56:40,550 --> 00:56:44,400
difficult question, I think, for people
who are in advanced democracies. And
513
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,360
because you see all the terrible things
that are happening all over the world, you
514
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,710
see the situation in Russia, you see the
situation in China, you see the Russia
515
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:55,570
situation in Iran and North Korea. And of
course, where you can make a difference, I
516
00:56:55,570 --> 00:57:02,400
think you always should act. Even in my
case, there have been things where I have
517
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,660
been criticizing, of course, the Russian
government, even though I live here, even
518
00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:11,800
though it's dangerous to do. I don't think
there's much likelihood that the Russian
519
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:16,530
government is likely to listen to me. I
don't think there's much likelihood that
520
00:57:16,530 --> 00:57:22,610
the Russian people will listen to me in
that circumstance, because I'm not
521
00:57:22,610 --> 00:57:30,020
Russian. I don't speak the language. I
can't persuade them. But you can persuade
522
00:57:30,020 --> 00:57:34,540
the people that you're around. You can
persuade the community. And that's really
523
00:57:34,540 --> 00:57:38,480
when we talk about hacking, when we talk
about systems. Right. The whole thing that
524
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:45,010
they used against us was, that they
thought, we thought, you know, the system,
525
00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:50,870
our democracy, our methods of voting, our
methods of policing the Internet, of
526
00:57:50,870 --> 00:57:58,100
managing and sharing our communications
worked in a certain way. And how they were
527
00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:01,110
actually being used, how they were
actually being implemented, how they were
528
00:58:01,110 --> 00:58:07,480
actually being operated in many cases
against us. That was not clear in secrecy.
529
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:13,880
In many cases was responsible for this.
But when you talk about where you can make
530
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:19,300
the most difference, it's in this room.
It's the friendships you make that you
531
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:23,720
take with you. It's the networks of
solidarity and influence that you build,
532
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,870
the sharing of skill sets and cooperation
that will allow you to influence people
533
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:33,830
even outside your areas of expertise,
going to politics, going to local
534
00:58:33,830 --> 00:58:37,120
officials, using the local officials to
get the state officials, using the state
535
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:41,690
officials to get to national, using the
national to get to the international. What
536
00:58:41,690 --> 00:58:47,120
we have to do is we have to take a hard
look at how the world actually operates
537
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:52,500
today. Not how we wanted to operate, not
how we think it operates, but to measure
538
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:55,880
it, to see how it's actually function and
to see where the money goes, to see who's
539
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:02,810
using it, to see where the influence is.
And in many cases, to seize control of
540
00:59:02,810 --> 00:59:10,150
that via whatever means that we have
available to us. This is where we get the
541
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:14,750
technical systems that, the people in this
room have an extraordinary amount of
542
00:59:14,750 --> 00:59:18,880
influence over that. We may not have in
the political realm. If you make a phone
543
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:23,540
call and that gets used around the world,
you can provide the same guarantees, the
544
00:59:23,540 --> 00:59:27,750
same protection to someone in China, to
someone in Russia that they have in
545
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:34,610
Germany, because technology can be
agnostic to its use. And if we make these
546
00:59:34,610 --> 00:59:41,470
carve outs, if we make these sort of
emissions, if we make concessions to
547
00:59:41,470 --> 00:59:48,700
power, to system, to government, to
institutions, we have to think about how
548
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:54,800
they will be used. The more rules in the
system, the more lines of complexity there
549
00:59:54,800 --> 01:00:00,710
are, the greater the unseen attack surface
that can be used against us. We need to
550
01:00:00,710 --> 01:00:09,310
design for tomorrow. But there is no time
to wait. We need to be working today.
551
01:00:09,310 --> 01:00:21,390
Applause.
And if I could just say one thing. Thank
552
01:00:21,390 --> 01:00:24,590
you, everyone, for your patience and for
bearing with us through all of this. I'm
553
01:00:24,590 --> 01:00:30,260
gonna shut up and give this back to
Robert, but everybody asks, you know, how
554
01:00:30,260 --> 01:00:35,110
can I make a difference? This is all very
good. It's very abstract. Again, be
555
01:00:35,110 --> 01:00:39,230
opportunistic. Look at where you can make
a difference right now. In the case of
556
01:00:39,230 --> 01:00:43,230
these families, we are almost across the
finish line. We had been in this fight for
557
01:00:43,230 --> 01:00:48,500
years and we are about to win. We can do
it with your help. So please, if you can
558
01:00:48,500 --> 01:01:03,870
support them, do. Thank you.
Applause
559
01:01:03,870 --> 01:01:09,360
Herald: I have to extend a huge thanks to
you, Mr. Robert, to go to you. Edward
560
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:14,010
Snowden, thank you for coming on our
stream and thank you, Vanessa, for coming
561
01:01:14,010 --> 01:01:21,030
to us as well. This is, this was a lovely
event and Mr. Snowden asked you to help.
562
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:27,270
And this is how, this is how, Robert, if
you like to say some last words?
563
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:33,090
RT: I would. This has been a long fight.
It's we're in the eighth year now, and
564
01:01:33,090 --> 01:01:39,770
there's no way that we're gonna get to the
finish line unless donations are made.
565
01:01:39,770 --> 01:01:44,250
Whatever you can help with, if it's if
it's a small amount of change, that's
566
01:01:44,250 --> 01:01:47,720
fine. If you can donate something more
significantly. Of course, that's going to
567
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:55,670
help. But it's all about food, rent,
utilities, and also for Vanessa and Keana
568
01:01:55,670 --> 01:02:01,640
and Montreal. We, the NGO, is under a
legal obligation to continue to support
569
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:07,160
them financially for the first full year,
that they're there in Montreal and they do
570
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:13,430
need that support. The one thing all
stresses the climate has been a big shock
571
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:19,120
for Vanessa and Keana, and it costs a lot
of money to get winter jackets or, you
572
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:25,960
know, jackets for autumn shoes, boots. So
it's been at times it's been rough for
573
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:31,060
them. But one solution is the donations
that make sure they have warm clothes and
574
01:02:31,060 --> 01:02:36,020
food, etc.. And of course, the clients in
Hong Kong that they have almost no
575
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:42,060
government humanitarian support. So if you
can donate. We continue to donate. We all
576
01:02:42,060 --> 01:02:46,250
appreciate this. And thank you so much.
577
01:02:46,250 --> 01:02:57,290
Applause
578
01:02:57,290 --> 01:03:01,310
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579
01:03:01,310 --> 01:03:25,000
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