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36C3 preroll music
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Robert Tibbo: Thank you for your patience[br]tonight. It was a little bit hectic in my
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getting here on time. So I do apologize.[br]But thank you for all being here tonight.
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Myself and the Snowden refugees, Mr.[br]Snowden, we really appreciate your
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attendance here. The people watching the[br]livestream and the support for my
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clients. And just very briefly, in case[br]there are a few people out there, I met
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Mr. Snowden in 2013, June in Hong Kong.[br]And that's when he made the globally
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significant disclosures of the Five Eyes[br]electronic mass surveillance program. And
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it was at that time that I represented Mr.[br]Snowden in Hong Kong. And thereafter. And
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it was also at that time that I asked for[br]brave adults, incredibly courageous adults
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who exercised decisions of conscience to[br]provide Mr. Snowden with a refuge, with
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shelter, humanity, compassion and caring.[br]And to introduce them again. Briefly,
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Vanessa, on the left, if you're facing the[br]screen from the Philippines to her right.
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To her left. A military deserter from Sri[br]Lanka. Nadeka from Sri Lanka. And on the
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far, far left supporting from Sri Lanka.[br]And these are the three children. On the
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bottom left is Keana, and beside her is[br]her stepsister, Satyamdi. And support is
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holding a little boy Dinath.[br]Applause
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What what I'm gonna do this evening before[br]providing a brief update on the Snowden
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refugee status. I'm gonna go through a bit[br]of law, I think, at this stage. There's
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been such marginalization, demonization,[br]confusion about what refugees are and
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what, you know, what is required to[br]qualify as a refugee. I'm gonna go through
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a number of international law and at the[br]same time. Beyond that, I'm gonna go
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through what's happening globally and in[br]my view, where we're really at a crisis in
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terms of authoritarian leaders[br]democratically elected and ignoring their
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constitutions, violating them, blatantly[br]ignoring international law. So very
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briefly, I've just listed some of the most[br]crucial or core conventions that protect
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human rights from the U.N. Universal[br]Declaration of Human Rights to the UN
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Convention Against Torture. And of course,[br]the UN Convention relating to the Status
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of Refugees and its protocol. I'm also[br]mentioning the Rome Statute of the
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International Criminal Court, because this[br]is a court where this court itself is now
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being attacked by states around the world,[br]nations around the world. I'm also
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mentioning customary international law,[br]which is an international norm, where due
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to practice, the practice becomes so[br]pervasive that countries no need, no
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longer need to sign up to an international[br]treaty. That treaty becomes part of
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customary law. It doesn't have to be[br]written anywhere. Now, the core document
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I'm going to discuss is the Refugee[br]Convention and Article 33 and some are sub
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paragraph one is the core. It's the core[br]part of refugee protection and that is no
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state shall expel return. And the legal[br]word is refoul means to return. So no
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state is going to should return any[br]refugee. And that also includes any
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refugee claimant out of their jurisdiction[br]where their life or freedom are at risk,
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and that the life and freedom also[br]includes any serious harm. And there
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are five fundamental grounds to secure[br]refugee status, race, religion,
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nationality and political opinion. These[br]are the classical four. There's a fifth
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called social group. And it's not a[br]closed end category. It's actually open
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ended because as you know, over time, we[br]recognize that different human rights
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abuses occur affecting different social[br]groups that don't fall into the four
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classic categories. So just a review[br]just to interpret Article 33. As I
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mentioned, liberty and life also includes[br]serious harm. It's a forward looking test.
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So if an asylum seeker or refugee crosses[br]a border into another country, they don't
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need to prove that they actually suffered[br]any harm or any threats or any risks or
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any threats or harms or loss of liberty or[br]serious harm before they leave their
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jurisdiction into another jurisdiction.[br]That person has to show they're unable or
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unwilling to seek help from the police or[br]the state. And that's quite often the case
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because of corruption or the state itself[br]is the persecutor. And there must be a
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nexus to one of the five grounds. I'm[br]going to focus on political opinion and
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political opinion can be expressed by an[br]individual verbally through their physical
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actions. The presence with others and[br]political opinion is connected to the
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right of freedom of expression. And one[br]thing I would stress is that freedom of
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expression under the law is not just your[br]right to say something. It's also your
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right to receive information, to be[br]present, to be able to hear and listen or
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record. And the freedom of expression[br]connects fundamentally to freedom of
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association, assembly and mobility. Lot of[br]people misunderstand that persecution for
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political opinion is the persecutor. Is[br]that the opinion comes from the persecuted
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person. In fact. The Refugee Convention[br]clearly states, it is the opinion of the
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persecutor that counts. So, for example,[br]I've had clients from South Asia. One case
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was of a farmer who just had no political[br]opinion, but was at a rally in a public
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place and just was standing on a corner[br]and was unaware there was a political
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opponent standing near him. Those in power[br]saw my client. Inferred that my client
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must be supporting the opposition. And[br]from that day onward, persecuted him,
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burned down his house, destroyed his farm[br]and he fled for his life. So the legal
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test is the opinion or the perception of[br]the persecutory. Now, I'd like to go to
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the social group category. This is really[br]important, because this relates to some of
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my clients and in particular the Snowden[br]refugees. And a social group is a
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particular group of people that are[br]connected or linked through a shared
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characteristic or there's a perception by[br]society that they, you know, having
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certain characteristics that they form a[br]group. These characteristics are typically
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historical and relate fundamentally to an[br]individual's identity and conscience.
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Usually they're unchangeable. And if[br]they're not unchangeable, that person
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should not have to change those character[br]characteristics, because they are
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fundamental to their identity or[br]conscience. If they can be changed, they
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still should not be changed because[br]they're linked to that person's
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fundamental exercise of human rights. The[br]Snowden refugees fall into the social
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group category. Aside from having claims[br]with Hong Kong and the Canadian government
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under political opinion for supporting[br]helping Mr. Snowden, they form the unique
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social group that I think everyone in the[br]world recognizes. They are the Snowden
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refugees and the social group are[br]individuals that protect whistleblowers.
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That's the social category.[br]Applause
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One thing I'll stress is that we hear[br]about whistleblowers and public support
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for whistleblowers, not protection. Public[br]support for journalists to carry out their
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duties. Quite often working or reporting,[br]what whistleblowers want to disclose. But
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there is not enough in, in terms of legal[br]applications, there's not enough in terms
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of public awareness, the importance of the[br]average individual on the street, anybody
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on the street who may one day be faced[br]with, what the Snowden refugees were faced
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with and make extraordinary decisions of[br]conscience to help a whistleblower. I'm
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mentioning the CAT Convention, the United[br]Nations Convention of Torture. Torture is
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a non-derogable right. It's not to be[br]tortured is a non-derogable right. There
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is no circumstances that exist that can[br]justify any state or private party
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torturing an individual. And I also[br]mentioned the International Covenant on
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Civil and Political Rights and 3, 3 core[br]rights here are the right to life and that
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it should not be arbitrarily taken.[br]Tortures repeated here, but also cruel,
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inhuman or degrading treatment or[br]punishment. And this is a a non-derogable
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right. No one should ever be subjected to[br]this. And then the last one I'm going to
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mention, I apologize, is liberty and[br]security in particular, arbitrary arrest
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and arbitrary detention. And as we see[br]globally today, countries around the world
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where there's mass protests against[br]government corruption, government abuses,
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a lack of freedoms. Governments are[br]arbitrarily using arbitrary arrest and
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detention to make people disappear. To[br]shut them up. No need to mention or point
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to the Universal Declaration of Human[br]Rights. And in there, as well as Article
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31 of the Refugee Convention, that every[br]refugee claimant has an absolute right to
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cross a border if they're at risk of[br]losing their liberty, their life or
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serious harm. And unfortunately, we're[br]living in a world today where countries
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and around the world are putting up walls[br]that are real, walls that are virtual.
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Because they do not want to address or[br]comply with their international
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obligations to help the most vulnerable.[br]And what nation states are doing is
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they're using propaganda, inaccurate[br]information, false information to
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criminalize legitimate asylum seekers and[br]refugees, to try to categorize them as
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illegal immigrants, economic migrants. And[br]with all of this, we're seeing an erosion
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of international law and constitutional[br]law. And one area where nations have been
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very clever is they've been using the[br]strategy of constructive refoulement. Now
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refoulement means to return. And in Hong[br]Kong, for example, the government achieves
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constructive refoulement, which basically[br]means, they create an environment that
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makes it intolerable for an individual to[br]remain in that jurisdiction. And that in
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the end, that person's mental and physical[br]integrity is so compromised, they make a
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decision to return their home country to[br]take a risk. So whether they're going to
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live or die or lose their liberty or not.[br]So in Hong Kong, for example, the
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government does not provide full[br]humanitarian assistance. They criminalize
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work. There's no education allowed for[br]adults. And employment is prohibited so
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that there's no way for the individual to[br]be making money or participating in a
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meaningful way in society. And in the end,[br]that person becomes so compromised, they
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decide to leave. The governments create[br]these circumstances to violate their
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constitutional rights, international equal[br]rights, by making them leave, by making
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the circumstances intolerable. You're[br]seeing a global trend of criminalization
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and ill treatment of asylum seekers.[br]You've seen similar legislative and policy
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and propaganda frameworks in Austria,[br]Denmark and Hungary. We've all seen the
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asylum seekers who've lost their lives[br]crossing the Mediterranean. In the United
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States we've seen separation of children[br]separated from families, a tactic used by
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the US government. The children held in[br]detention centers, deprived of blankets,
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soap, toothpaste, a lack of monitoring and[br]care for the welfare and health of these
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children. Some have died and more[br]recently. And this is a tactic also used
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by the Hong Kong government, but in a[br]different way. Asylum seekers who are
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outside the U.S. jurisdiction, the[br]immigration officers put incorrect
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addresses recorded in the system, so that[br]they cannot receive legal notifications
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from the U.S. government. You've seen the[br]same thing in Hong Kong. I know firsthand.
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I've seen asylum seekers go to the[br]immigration and removal assessment
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section, try to hand in a document stating[br]that they're raising a claim as a
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protection claimant for refugee status or[br]torture. And there are security guards at
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the door that basic that tell them go[br]away. It's not acceptable. Not immigration
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officers. And if they do manage to submit[br]raising their refugee asylum claims, I've
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I've had too many clients, who've been[br]told you're not using the right words to
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raise a claim that you're afraid you're[br]gonna die or you're afraid you're going to
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be hurt. So these are tactics that deny,[br]what I would describe, the due process
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rights of these votes, this vulnerable[br]groups. And I do want to mention Thailand
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in terms of the treatment of asylum[br]seekers. And that they have found mass
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graves in Thailand has been complicit in[br]human trafficking of the Rohingya. Now,
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there's a few quotes I'd like to to read,[br]and this is from the former U.N. high
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commissioner for Human Rights. And it was[br]right for us -not just to have remembered
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Mandela's greatness, but to have almost[br]unconsciously contrasted it with all the
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narrow politicians, who continue to[br]proliferate across the face of the world.
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Authoritarian in nature, many of them are[br]wily political in-fighters, but most are
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of the thin mind and faint humanity, prone[br]to fan division and intolerance. And just
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for the sake of securing their political[br]ambition, while some do this more openly
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than others, all are well aware what they[br]practice comes at the expense of
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vulnerable humans. And the U.N. high[br]commissioner goes on to state to them, I
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say you may seize power or stubbornly hold[br]onto it, by playing on and stoking the
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fears of your followers. You may[br]congratulate yourselves for this and you
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may think yourself so clever for it. But[br]we know all you've done is to copy the
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behavior of previous generations of once[br]strong but ultimately catastrophic,
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leaders and politicians. Yours will, in[br]the end, become a mouse like global
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reputation, never the fine example of the[br]leader you think you are, and never even
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close to a Mandela.[br]Applause
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To deserve global respect, you must begin[br]to follow his example---committing to the
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spirit and letter of the Universal[br]Declaration of Human Rights. Hong Kong
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does not recognize the Universal[br]Declaration of Human Rights. Hong Kong
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doesn't recognize the UN convention[br]relating to the Status of Refugees.
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Michelle Bachelet, the current U.N. high[br]commissioner, she stated early this year
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"the report outlines our efforts to assist[br]States to uphold all human rights, at a
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time when humanity faces many serious[br]challenges. These include the existential
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threat of climate change; technological[br]developments: unbearable civilian
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suffering in multiple armed conflicts,[br]displacement, youth unemployment,
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structural economic injustices, xenophobia[br]and hate speech, and -- a focus on my
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statement today --- gross inequalities".[br]Me specially continues focusing on these
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inequalities and I'm just going to read at[br]the bottom. Yet in several cases they are
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being met with violent and excessive use[br]of force, arbitrary detentions, torture,
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even alleged summary extrajudicial[br]killings. People are protesting. People
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are protesting at the behavior of[br]government and authoritarian leaders. And
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I put my mind to how to describe what's[br]going on. And in the best way I've been
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able to describe it is, that these[br]authoritarian leaders, democratic,
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elected, have become unhinged,[br]disconnected from from the populace. And
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most recently, especially as talked about[br]global protests, and she stated just a few
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months ago, I fear that we are moving[br]farther away, further away from the global
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solutions to the global problems due to[br]two clear trends that are taking us in the
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opposite directions. Today, in places with[br]very different circumstances, level of
0:19:50.990,0:19:54.450
development and political situations,[br]we're seeing an outpouring of popular
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discontent and mass protests or their[br]suppression with the firm hand of the
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state in every region. And Hong Kong is[br]included in here and I'll just part move
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forward. We see the desperate need for[br]dialog. The use of unnecessary and
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disproportionate force[br]against people holding dissenting views
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and arrests of individuals exercising[br]their rights to freedom of expression and
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peaceful assembly can only exacerbate[br]tensions, seriously undermining the space
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for dialog. In my view, we are in crisis.[br]There is a global crisis. What I thought I
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would do is to give some tangible examples[br]through the casework I do. Narendra Modi.
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His platform has been Hindu nationalism,[br]and that's been at the expense of
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religious minorities and ethnic minorities[br]in India. In particular, the Muslim
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population. And what Modi has done and[br]this is this is a thread that runs through
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what happens in other jurisdictions,[br]including Hong Kong, is when you have
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nationalism and minorities are targeted by[br]the government or they're discriminated
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against. Third parties in the private[br]sector or related to politicians act on
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their own. And when the state allows that[br]to happen, we call that state
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acquiescence. And in India, that's what[br]we're seeing. Back here. Recently, there
0:21:33.559,0:21:42.320
was a deprivation of citizenship of 1.9[br]million people in Assam state, an
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arbitrary act by Modi's government. And as[br]of last week, there was a new bill enacted
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into law, granting citizenship to Hindus,[br]Buddhists and Christians from certain
0:21:52.409,0:21:59.549
Southeast Asian countries. But it excludes[br]Muslims and it also excludes the Sri
0:21:59.549,0:22:07.149
Lankan Tamils, for which there is a huge[br]number of refugees, who had fled from Sri
0:22:07.149,0:22:16.159
Lanka. And what Modi has done is all[br]contrary to Article 15 up to 28, and
0:22:16.159,0:22:19.710
that's prohibition of[br]discrimination based on religion, race and
0:22:19.710,0:22:25.269
place of birth. The tactics used by[br]governments today in doing what Modi has
0:22:25.269,0:22:33.230
done, it's being used all over the world.[br]The executive branch for the legislator
0:22:33.230,0:22:37.820
legislature passes legislation that's[br]unconstitutional and it may take a year or
0:22:37.820,0:22:44.191
two or three years before a court strikes[br]it down. But during that gap period, those
0:22:44.191,0:22:49.900
people who are discriminated against or[br]persecuted suffer. Often they have to flee
0:22:49.900,0:22:55.229
their homes. They had to flee their[br]country or they're hurt or they're killed.
0:22:55.229,0:23:01.639
So this is another way that democratically[br]elected leaders are utilizing the
0:23:01.639,0:23:05.519
government and the legal system to strip[br]away constitutional rights and rights
0:23:05.519,0:23:14.139
under international law. Sri Lanka,[br]extraordinarily good by Rajapaksa, accused
0:23:14.139,0:23:18.080
of war crimes, crimes against humanity and[br]genocide, was elected as Sri Lanka's new
0:23:18.080,0:23:26.850
president just a month ago. In 1987 to[br]1988, 1990, he was the commanding officer
0:23:26.850,0:23:33.650
in charge of the Mottola district, where[br]about eight years ago they found mass
0:23:33.650,0:23:39.539
graves. In 2009, he was accused of war[br]crimes, crimes against humanity and
0:23:39.539,0:23:44.570
genocide. At the end of the war bombing,[br]hospitals, civilian hospitals where they
0:23:44.570,0:23:52.869
were Tamils, actually judicial killings,[br]summary executions. And the
0:23:52.869,0:24:05.389
platform of Rutter Rajapaksa was based on[br]ethnicity and nationalism. And the
0:24:05.389,0:24:14.460
Philippines. Duterte came to power in[br]2016. It was on the platform that he would
0:24:14.460,0:24:19.760
carry out mass extrajudicial killings[br]against drug addicts and drug traffickers.
0:24:19.760,0:24:25.580
He had done that when he was mayor of[br]Davao City in southern Philippines. And in
0:24:25.580,0:24:31.190
June 2016, when he took power as president[br]of the country, he did exactly that to
0:24:31.190,0:24:37.489
over 20.000 Philipinos executed. The[br]president, the Philippines, the government
0:24:37.489,0:24:43.759
have threatened NGO, human rights[br]activists, ethnic minorities, Catholic
0:24:43.759,0:24:50.720
Church and even U.N. special rapporteurs.[br]And stunningly Duterte was actually
0:24:50.720,0:24:58.450
filmed. This was televised, where he in[br]his campaign and basically committing
0:24:58.450,0:25:02.980
crimes against humanity. He said "If[br]Germany had Hitler, the Philippines would
0:25:02.980,0:25:08.960
have. He said, pausing and pointing to[br]himself. Hitler massacred three million
0:25:08.960,0:25:18.090
Jews. There's three million drug addicts,[br]there are. I'd be happy to slaughter them.
0:25:18.090,0:25:28.720
And a year later, Donald Trump[br]congratulated Duterte on his war on drugs.
0:25:28.720,0:25:34.039
U.N. Special Rapporteur on the rights of[br]indigenous people, Victoria Tauli-Corpuz.
0:25:34.039,0:25:37.739
She fled the jurisdiction because the tar[br]tape put her on a her name on a terrorist
0:25:37.739,0:25:46.119
list. This is about state acquiescence to[br]human rights violations when a government
0:25:46.119,0:25:52.191
puts an individual's name on a list. And[br]what happened in the Philippines? Private
0:25:52.191,0:25:55.840
parties took the law into their own hands[br]and executed a number of people,
0:25:55.840,0:25:59.941
assassinated them. So that was the fear[br]for the UN special rapporteur, and she
0:25:59.941,0:26:07.110
fled the jurisdiction. Complaints were[br]filed with the International Criminal
0:26:07.110,0:26:17.489
Court for crimes against humanity against[br]Duterte. And also this UN special
0:26:17.489,0:26:25.379
rapporteur, Agnes Kellerman on summary and[br]extradition killings. Both the
0:26:25.379,0:26:29.009
International Criminal Court prosecutor[br]was threatened by Duterte and also the UN
0:26:29.009,0:26:36.659
Special Rapporteur. Most significantly,[br]the ICC prosecutor was threatened with
0:26:36.659,0:26:41.280
arrest, if she came to the Philippines to[br]investigate. She'd be assaulted and she'd
0:26:41.280,0:26:48.799
be killed. She'd be fed to the crocodiles.[br]Philippines officially withdrew from the
0:26:48.799,0:26:58.099
International Criminal Court, but that[br]still does not protect President Duterte.
0:26:58.099,0:27:02.689
Duterte may have committed possible war[br]crimes. I've mentioned a few here,
0:27:02.689,0:27:10.850
particularly calling for horrific crimes[br]to be committed against women. And the
0:27:10.850,0:27:15.031
People's Republic of China has been a[br]great supporter of Duterte today, and it's
0:27:15.031,0:27:19.259
understood that, because of the provisions[br]under the Rome Statute for the
0:27:19.259,0:27:25.149
International Criminal Court, that Duterte[br]would not be prosecuted. China would use
0:27:25.149,0:27:29.580
its veto power in the International[br]Criminal Court to prevent any prosecution
0:27:29.580,0:27:38.759
of him. Again, this is an example of how[br]states are interfering with violating or
0:27:38.759,0:27:48.229
making international law useless. The[br]People's Republic of China, the most
0:27:48.229,0:27:52.489
pressing example are the current[br]concentration or detention camps in China.
0:27:52.489,0:27:59.010
Of the Uighur Muslims, and despite the[br]China cable, satellite images and
0:27:59.010,0:28:04.700
witnesses, China denies that they've[br]arbitrarily arrested, arbitrarily detained
0:28:04.700,0:28:13.910
and disappeared over a million from[br][unaudible] Xinjiang provice.
0:28:13.910,0:28:19.679
I'd like to mention Hong Kong[br]very briefly, and Hong Kong has had a
0:28:19.679,0:28:26.960
history of violating its own constitution[br]and international law. From the Sami al-
0:28:26.960,0:28:32.149
Saadi extraordinary rendition, where Hong[br]Kong deprived Mr. Saudi of all his due
0:28:32.149,0:28:36.509
process rights and its protections under[br]international law and handed him over the
0:28:36.509,0:28:43.130
UK and U.S. government on a rendition[br]flight in 2004. And that was the incident
0:28:43.130,0:28:48.369
that put fear that made, that gave me[br]great concern when Mr. Snowden was in Hong
0:28:48.369,0:28:53.590
Kong, that the Hong Kong government could[br]not be trusted to uphold its constitution,
0:28:53.590,0:29:05.489
to uphold international law. 2014 Occupy[br]protests, Ken Tsang, a politician. He was
0:29:05.489,0:29:10.700
hold tied, hands tied behind his back and[br]his legs and tortured by the police, and
0:29:10.700,0:29:18.410
it was caught on video and these officers[br]were convicted, but then they compared
0:29:18.410,0:29:23.220
them, the police compared themselves to[br]being persecuted as the Jewish people had
0:29:23.220,0:29:33.489
during the Holocaust. And that's on video[br]that's been publicly recorded. And 2018
0:29:33.489,0:29:38.649
Allen Lee and Ray Wong fled Hong Kong in[br]fear for their liberty and their and their
0:29:38.649,0:29:43.859
safety, and they were granted refugee[br]status by the German government, which was
0:29:43.859,0:29:48.759
the right thing to do. And this caused a[br]lot of outrage of the Hong Kong government
0:29:48.759,0:29:54.710
and Beijing. And right now we have the[br]Hong Kong protests, including arbitrary
0:29:54.710,0:29:58.280
arrest, arbitrary detention, cruel and[br]inhuman or degrading treatment and
0:29:58.280,0:30:03.279
punishment, torture, enforced[br]disappearances, cases of rape by the
0:30:03.279,0:30:16.539
police and actual extrajudicial killings.[br]I'm going to skip this. I still have
0:30:16.539,0:30:21.369
clients, my clients in Hong Kong, Snowden[br]refugees, and fortunately this March,
0:30:21.369,0:30:27.710
March of this year, Vanessa O'Dell and her[br]daughter Keana safely arrived in Canada,
0:30:27.710,0:30:40.349
having been granted refugee status.[br]Applause
0:30:40.349,0:30:47.330
This was a seven and a half year battle,[br]seven and a half years, and one thing I'll
0:30:47.330,0:30:54.959
say is that so many people gave up, so[br]many people said to me, you're not going
0:30:54.959,0:31:01.889
to win. It's taken too long. What? Why[br]don't you just move on with other cases?
0:31:01.889,0:31:07.779
Anyways, I believed that we'd be[br]successful. And we have.
0:31:07.779,0:31:26.649
Applause[br]Keana, in this photo, this is Keana on her
0:31:26.649,0:31:33.740
father's lap. And her father is still in[br]Hong Kong with her brother and sister.
0:31:33.740,0:31:43.259
Satyam de and Denath, and we would like to[br]see this family being reunited in Canada
0:31:43.259,0:31:54.809
and we're asking Canada to act fast, as[br]fast as possible. She has a sister who
0:31:54.809,0:32:00.840
only thinks about in Hong Kong something,[br]who only thinks about being reunited with
0:32:00.840,0:32:06.460
Keana in Montreal. And at this time, with[br]the with the police abuses, the government
0:32:06.460,0:32:12.190
abuses in Hong Kong Sethumdi she has been[br]traumatized and she suffered permanent
0:32:12.190,0:32:17.129
damage. The whole family is afraid. They[br]live in fear and they are at heightened
0:32:17.129,0:32:24.779
risk with the lawlessness in Hong Kong.[br]The lawlessness by the Hong Kong police. I
0:32:24.779,0:32:29.320
just want to share this picture, which was[br]taken by Jane Russell in August this year.
0:32:29.320,0:32:34.250
This is the Hong Kong Police Tactical Unit[br]in Fanling. And you'll notice that there's
0:32:34.250,0:32:43.409
no Hong Kong flag. And Jane Russell,[br]photojournalist, pointed this out. And it
0:32:43.409,0:32:48.809
was at that point we all realized that the[br]hand of Beijing was apparently acting
0:32:48.809,0:33:03.679
directly inside Hong Kong. Directing the[br]Hong Kong police. What's happened in Hong
0:33:03.679,0:33:12.329
Kong, is the same thing that you see in[br]Sri Lanka, in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India,
0:33:12.329,0:33:18.539
where the government allows the police to[br]commit abuses state sanctioned or the
0:33:18.539,0:33:22.629
police commit abuses and the government[br]turns a blind eye. And that amounts to
0:33:22.629,0:33:27.249
state acquiescence. And what's happened in[br]Hong Kong is, what you see classically in
0:33:27.249,0:33:32.669
Sri Lanka or the Philippines, where third[br]private parties take the law into their
0:33:32.669,0:33:39.759
own hands and go after innocent civilians[br]or peaceful protesters. Hong Kong has
0:33:39.759,0:33:46.119
become a very dangerous place today. And[br]my clients lives are at risk, at a
0:33:46.119,0:33:56.720
heightened risk. I thought I would share[br]this image taken by Keana's father of
0:33:56.720,0:34:03.789
[inaudible] during the protests.[br]And this is what these children are
0:34:03.789,0:34:13.990
growing up in this kind of environment[br]right now. Where really where they should
0:34:13.990,0:34:24.330
be, is in this environment. And this is[br]Vanessa and Keana in Montreal, Quebec, not
0:34:24.330,0:34:33.130
just earlier this month. Now, what I'd[br]like to do in saying that is I'd like to
0:34:33.130,0:35:26.070
invite Mr. Snowden to join us. Dom. Check.[br]Edward Snowden: Can anyone hear me? Thank
0:35:26.070,0:35:27.070
you.[br]Applause
0:35:27.070,0:35:33.250
We have very little time. So let me first[br]give thanks to Robert Tibbo. I know it's
0:35:33.250,0:35:40.920
not always fun for Rudy to sit through,[br]what is effectively a long lecture about
0:35:40.920,0:35:45.180
what's wrong with the world. But these[br]things matter and it's important that we
0:35:45.180,0:35:51.940
remember how they get better. I've been[br]thinking a lot this year and writing my
0:35:51.940,0:35:58.390
book, Permanent Record and after about the[br]state of the world and the direction of
0:35:58.390,0:36:01.480
our future.[br]laughing
0:36:01.480,0:36:06.490
I trust that each of you will understand[br]that in 2019 this was not an especially
0:36:06.490,0:36:12.650
enjoyable activity, but it's necessary.[br]And one of the bright spots for me in this
0:36:12.650,0:36:20.990
increasingly dark world has been the fact[br]that people like you, that CCC has
0:36:20.990,0:36:27.020
supported these families over the last few[br]years. They made a difference for me.
0:36:27.020,0:36:29.830
Think think about, what would have[br]happened if I wouldn't have been able to
0:36:29.830,0:36:33.520
get off the street. Think about what might[br]have happened to me. I think about the
0:36:33.520,0:36:37.040
fact that I wouldn't be able to talk to[br]you today and all these years since the
0:36:37.040,0:36:44.840
book that I wrote would not exist. It[br]might seem like a small thing, you know,
0:36:44.840,0:36:49.130
to you, to it to give a donation to help[br]out. But I believe that it really has
0:36:49.130,0:36:56.260
genuinely changed the future of these[br]brave families in a positive way. And so
0:36:56.260,0:37:01.210
when I'm thinking about everything that's[br]broken in the world. It got me thinking
0:37:01.210,0:37:05.800
about the lessons that can be taken from[br]them and how they fit into a larger
0:37:05.800,0:37:11.870
framework. We have pretty limited time[br]here. So I'm going to do something a
0:37:11.870,0:37:20.741
little bit unusual to try to summarize and[br]read a little passage from the book. What
0:37:20.741,0:37:28.390
makes a life? It's more than what we say.[br]More even than what we do. A life is also
0:37:28.390,0:37:34.880
about what we love and what we believe in.[br]For me, what I love and believe in the
0:37:34.880,0:37:41.020
most is connection, human connection and[br]the technologies by which that's achieved.
0:37:41.020,0:37:44.480
Those technologies include books, of[br]course. But for my generation, connection
0:37:44.480,0:37:50.120
has largely met the Internet. Now, before[br]a lot of you recoil, knowing how broken
0:37:50.120,0:37:54.560
the Internet, the toxic madness that's all[br]over it. I understand that for me, as it
0:37:54.560,0:37:58.600
was for, I believe many of you, when I[br]came to know it. The Internet was a very
0:37:58.600,0:38:03.360
different thing. It was a friend and a[br]parent. It was a community without borders
0:38:03.360,0:38:09.440
or limit. One voice and millions, a common[br]frontier that had been settled, but not
0:38:09.440,0:38:15.130
exploited by diverse tribes living[br]amicably enough side by side. Each member
0:38:15.130,0:38:22.710
which was free to choose their own name[br]and history and culture. Everyone wore
0:38:22.710,0:38:29.700
masks. And yet this culture of anonymity[br]through polyanomy produced more truth and
0:38:29.700,0:38:34.770
falsehood, because it was creative and[br]cooperative rather than commercial and
0:38:34.770,0:38:40.930
competitive. Certainly there was conflict,[br]but it was outweighed by goodwill and good
0:38:40.930,0:38:47.241
feelings. The true pioneering spirit.[br]You'll understand why I say, that the
0:38:47.241,0:38:51.850
internet today is in many ways[br]unrecognizable. It's worth noting that
0:38:51.850,0:38:58.060
this change has been a conscious choice,[br]the result of a systematic effort on the
0:38:58.060,0:39:05.550
part of a privileged few. The early rush[br]to turn commerce into e-commerce quickly
0:39:05.550,0:39:11.670
led to a bubble and then, just after the[br]term of the millennium, to a collapse.
0:39:11.670,0:39:15.070
After that, companies realized that people[br]who went online were far less interested
0:39:15.070,0:39:22.490
in spending than in sharing, and that the human[br]connection, the internet made possible,
0:39:22.490,0:39:28.800
could be monetized. If most of what people[br]wanted to do online, was to be able to
0:39:28.800,0:39:33.700
tell their family and their friends and[br]strangers what they were up to and to be
0:39:33.700,0:39:38.060
told what their family, friends and[br]strangers were up to in return, then all
0:39:38.060,0:39:41.930
companies had to do to figure out how to[br]put them was figure out how to put
0:39:41.930,0:39:47.551
themselves in the middle of those social[br]exchanges and turn them into profit. This
0:39:47.551,0:39:54.600
was the beginning of surveying capitalism[br]and the end of the Internet, as I know it
0:39:54.600,0:40:00.210
now. It was the creative web that[br]collapsed as countless beautiful,
0:40:00.210,0:40:05.630
difficult, individualized web sites were[br]shuttered. The promise of convenience led
0:40:05.630,0:40:09.520
people to exchange their personal sites,[br]which demanded constant and laborious
0:40:09.520,0:40:15.100
upkeep. As you are known for a Facebook[br]page and a Gmail account, the appearance
0:40:15.100,0:40:22.860
of ownership was easy to mistake for the[br]reality of it. But few of us understood it
0:40:22.860,0:40:31.030
at the time. None of the things that we go[br]on to share would belong to us anymore.
0:40:31.030,0:40:35.100
The successors to the emerge commerce[br]companies that had failed because they
0:40:35.100,0:40:43.500
couldn't find anything to sell, that we[br]were interested in. They now had a new
0:40:43.500,0:40:50.300
product to sell, and that product was us,[br]our attention, our activities, our
0:40:50.300,0:40:54.860
locations, our desires, everything about[br]us, that we revealed knowingly or
0:40:54.860,0:41:00.530
unknowingly, with or without consent, was[br]being surveilled and sold in secret so as
0:41:00.530,0:41:06.980
to delay the inevitable feeling violation[br]that is for most of us arriving now. And
0:41:06.980,0:41:11.450
this surveillance would go on to be[br]actively encouraged and even funded by an
0:41:11.450,0:41:15.410
army of governments greedy for the vast[br]volume of intelligence that they would
0:41:15.410,0:41:20.891
gain from these practices. Aside from logins[br]and financial transactions, hardly any
0:41:20.891,0:41:25.580
communications were encrypted in the early[br]twenty aughts, which meant that in many
0:41:25.580,0:41:30.960
cases governments didn't need to even[br]bother approaching the companies that were
0:41:30.960,0:41:36.520
running these platforms in order to know[br]what their customers were doing. They
0:41:36.520,0:41:46.800
could just spy on the world without[br]telling a soul. And now I ask you, is this
0:41:46.800,0:41:53.661
what the world should look like and how[br]did this come to be? We were there. We
0:41:53.661,0:42:00.130
were watching, and we thought we[br]controlled the system. We thought we ran
0:42:00.130,0:42:07.010
the system. We thought it was our[br]Internet. But here we are. Surveillance,
0:42:07.010,0:42:13.350
after all, is less about safety than it is[br]about control. And when you look around at
0:42:13.350,0:42:18.520
the union of technical and political[br]systems today, it seems that they intend
0:42:18.520,0:42:26.790
less to serve us than for us to serve[br]them. And it's funny talking about this at
0:42:26.790,0:42:36.180
CCC, because to me it it feels like a[br]hack. You know what is hacking, I'm sure,
0:42:36.180,0:42:42.390
all you guys have different definitions.[br]But in my definition, it's not just
0:42:42.390,0:42:49.570
programing. Of course, we wouldn't see[br]terms like bio hacking. Hacking is about
0:42:49.570,0:42:56.600
rules and the distance between how they[br]are believed to operate and how they
0:42:56.600,0:43:03.230
operate in fact. Hacking for me means,[br]coming to understand a system better than
0:43:03.230,0:43:10.960
its creators or its operators and using[br]that understanding to produce impossible
0:43:10.960,0:43:19.530
results, unexpected behavior. Thanks so[br]much. Now we'd like to think about hacks
0:43:19.530,0:43:25.560
in a positive light, but in the case of[br]these last few decades, it's our society
0:43:25.560,0:43:30.160
that was hacked. It is the whole of our[br]network. It is the Internet itself, that
0:43:30.160,0:43:38.010
they exploit. And you see that. That's the[br]thing. The choices that we make and the
0:43:38.010,0:43:47.850
things that you do. They have power and[br]doing nothing, that that's a choice. Now,
0:43:47.850,0:43:53.740
a lot of us like to think it's a willing[br]choice. We'd like to think that we're the
0:43:53.740,0:43:58.031
sole captains of our own destiny. And[br]that's the way it's supposed to be. That's
0:43:58.031,0:44:03.120
the way it was intended. That's the way we[br]designed the system. And yet the system
0:44:03.120,0:44:09.260
today. Somehow the actors within it spend[br]an enormous amount of energy trying to
0:44:09.260,0:44:14.680
make you forget, that the things you do[br]affect the outcome. They'll tell you not
0:44:14.680,0:44:19.780
to worry about it. That that it's not so[br]bad after all. You know, it could be
0:44:19.780,0:44:28.010
worse. But I say to you, it could be[br]better. And every time we hear those
0:44:28.010,0:44:34.310
words, that's what we need to say. Every[br]system in history, even the most powerful,
0:44:34.310,0:44:42.830
has been subject to change. And every hack[br]that is performed against us, can face a
0:44:42.830,0:44:50.880
patch and more in all of the trouble to[br]which these people have gone, to to make
0:44:50.880,0:44:55.910
the people broadly forget their own power,[br]they have forgotten something that I think
0:44:55.910,0:45:06.010
is fundamental. We can hack back. They run[br]the system. They may have won today. But
0:45:06.010,0:45:09.340
I've been thinking about this, look, we[br]all know the history and it has been a
0:45:09.340,0:45:17.020
dark time. But I'm here today in front of[br]you to say that tomorrow will be ours.
0:45:17.020,0:45:22.880
Change is coming and it is coming from[br]people who pay attention. People who care.
0:45:22.880,0:45:28.040
It will come from people like you, who[br]took the time out of the day, out of their
0:45:28.040,0:45:32.490
lives. The money out of their pocket to[br]travel. The time, the minutes of your life
0:45:32.490,0:45:42.140
to be here today, standing in solidarity,[br]talking, learning, sharing to show that
0:45:42.140,0:45:51.070
this broken world could very well be[br]better. We can change it. We can change
0:45:51.070,0:45:57.910
everything. One system, one rule at a[br]time. Thank you.
0:45:57.910,0:46:31.130
Applause[br]I just hope it's not kind of I no longer
0:46:31.130,0:46:33.770
have audio, so I'm afraid I won't be able[br]to.
0:46:33.770,0:46:37.560
Robert Tibbo: Ed, we've got Vanessa on the[br]screen, half the screen with you right
0:46:37.560,0:46:44.560
now. And she's, uh, she's on video live[br]from Montreal. And can you...
0:46:44.560,0:46:51.330
ES: Just if it's not clear I can't do[br]anything even so, I'm a bystander now. I'm
0:46:51.330,0:47:00.710
going to go to the stream and hopefully[br]Robert and Vanessa can help us for the Q&A
0:47:00.710,0:47:09.640
RT: Ed, do you want to do a Q&A right now[br]or do you want to. They've lost that. All
0:47:09.640,0:47:19.650
right, so, yeah. So Vanessa's in Montreal[br]and I've invited here her here today. And
0:47:19.650,0:47:26.610
so why don't we just start with a Q and A?[br]This is this is really it's Vanessa's
0:47:26.610,0:47:32.940
first year after a decade and a half of[br]being under very difficult circumstances.
0:47:32.940,0:47:45.280
Applause[br]Herald: Also, you know the drill. We have
0:47:45.280,0:47:49.330
microphones in the halls. Please line up[br]behind them. If you have question for a
0:47:49.330,0:47:56.830
Robert Tibbo or Vanessa and hopefully Mr.[br]Snowden will join us again, I think we're
0:47:56.830,0:48:04.900
working out the background. Do we have[br]questions from the Internet so far? Yes,
0:48:04.900,0:48:08.900
that is the case. So, Signal-Engel, please[br]give us a question.
0:48:08.900,0:48:12.220
Signal-Angel: Do you think that[br]whistleblowing could have prevented
0:48:12.220,0:48:17.280
fascist received regimes in the past and[br]that it will be more important in the near
0:48:17.280,0:48:26.970
future for the same reason?[br]RT: Questions for me, I'm assuming.
0:48:26.970,0:48:34.740
Whistleblowing has always occurred in the[br]past and it has brought about change.
0:48:34.740,0:48:40.400
Historically there, you know, there are[br]recorded cases, but the difficulties in
0:48:40.400,0:48:45.710
the past were the lack of protections.[br]Quite often in whistleblowers had to leave
0:48:45.710,0:48:52.780
the jurisdiction. They would end up being[br]killed. And and really, it's only in
0:48:52.780,0:48:59.520
recent history and in particular with with[br]Edward Snowden's whistleblowing, that
0:48:59.520,0:49:05.690
governments around the world, including[br]the European Union as a whole, recognize
0:49:05.690,0:49:12.280
that there needs to be change. There needs[br]to be more protections. But we're also
0:49:12.280,0:49:17.620
seeing that nations are providing enhanced[br]whistleblower protections. But on the
0:49:17.620,0:49:23.230
commercial civil side and they're still[br]lagging significantly, where there's
0:49:23.230,0:49:28.630
whistleblowing outing governments that[br]behave egregiously or criminally, as in
0:49:28.630,0:49:36.620
Mr. Snowden's case. So more than ever,[br]whistleblowing will remain and will
0:49:36.620,0:49:41.860
continue to be a crucial part of ensuring[br]government accountability and
0:49:41.860,0:49:47.270
transparency. But for whistleblowers to[br]step forward, a couple of things have to
0:49:47.270,0:49:52.880
happen. Society needs to be stepping up[br]and demanding government that there be
0:49:52.880,0:49:59.280
protections for whistleblowers,[br]particularly like Mr. Snowden. And
0:49:59.280,0:50:08.320
secondly, we've seen the government go[br]after with the Snowden refugees and made
0:50:08.320,0:50:16.510
their lives intolerable. There exists in[br]existence intolerable in Hong Kong and the
0:50:16.510,0:50:22.950
delay of so many years to get Vanessa and[br]Keana on the screen now into Canada and
0:50:22.950,0:50:28.750
the other families here in Hong Kong, who[br]are suffering right now, was the the
0:50:28.750,0:50:36.330
global leadership saying, don't protect a[br]whistleblower, because this is what's
0:50:36.330,0:50:44.070
gonna happen to you. So I hope that[br]Vanessa and Keana's arrivaled refuge in
0:50:44.070,0:50:49.580
Canada to safety and security, is an[br]example for the whole world that there
0:50:49.580,0:50:53.650
will be more whistleblowers. But there[br]also needs to be people in the general
0:50:53.650,0:50:59.480
population who say, look, we need to[br]support them and to take steps to make
0:50:59.480,0:51:03.430
whistle, make sure whistleblowers can[br]remain safe, but also when democratic
0:51:03.430,0:51:09.200
systems to put pressure on government, to[br]make changes and whistleblower
0:51:09.200,0:51:12.440
protections.[br]Signal-Angel: Thank you a lot for the
0:51:12.440,0:51:16.330
detailed answer. We have some more[br]questions. But before we continue with
0:51:16.330,0:51:21.270
them, I would like to ask all of you to[br]stay seated and stay quiet. Some people
0:51:21.270,0:51:25.820
are leaving already the hall. Please[br]don't. And please stay quiet so we can
0:51:25.820,0:51:31.510
enjoy the last minutes of this lovely Q[br]and A. You can also ask questions to
0:51:31.510,0:51:37.810
Vanessa, who played a crucial role in[br]sheltering Mr. Snowden back in Hong Kong.
0:51:37.810,0:51:43.220
And for now, I would like to hear a[br]question from microphone number three.
0:51:43.220,0:51:49.440
Mic 3: Hi. I'm [inaudible] Hi, I'm a Pakistani[br]journalist in exile. So thank you for the
0:51:49.440,0:51:57.200
talk. It's been super inspiring. My[br]question to Vanessa is that looking back
0:51:57.200,0:52:02.520
now that you everything that you suffer.[br]Would you say that if you were given a
0:52:02.520,0:52:08.300
choice, that you could do this all over[br]again and not do this at all? Would you?
0:52:08.300,0:52:49.890
Which one would you choose?[br]Vanessa: If I had the chance again [inaudible]
0:52:49.890,0:53:01.990
Applause[br]Herald: Can we have another question from
0:53:01.990,0:53:07.230
the Internet?[br]Signal-Angel: It's a question for Vanessa.
0:53:07.230,0:53:35.920
How are you settling down in Montreal and[br]has the community received you well?
0:53:35.920,0:54:14.760
Vanessa: inaudible[br]Herald: Thank you for this answer. Do we
0:54:14.760,0:54:19.430
have more questions in the hall? I sat at[br]a microphone and I can't see you right
0:54:19.430,0:54:26.210
now. Please wink if you do. I think that's[br]not the case. Signal-Angel. Do we have one
0:54:26.210,0:54:31.500
more question from you? Or wait?[br]Microphone number two, please go ahead.
0:54:31.500,0:54:36.290
Mic. 2: I don't know which one of you can[br]answer that, but what's causing the delay?
0:54:36.290,0:54:40.391
Why is the families still separated? Is[br]there any indication why Canada doesn't
0:54:40.391,0:54:45.160
process the search for asylum?[br]RT: *To an Angel: I want to put this on
0:54:45.160,0:54:55.620
last. OK?[br]RT: The Snowden refugee cases, it has been
0:54:55.620,0:55:05.450
a long delay and it's been too long. And[br]at this stage, the Canadian government is
0:55:05.450,0:55:14.830
is progressing with the cases and these[br]are complex cases. At this stage, that's
0:55:14.830,0:55:21.180
all I can really say. We all want the[br]other families supporting the DEKA, the
0:55:21.180,0:55:25.070
two children, Kiena's brother and sister.[br]And we want to treat this, the former
0:55:25.070,0:55:30.760
soldier, and we want them in Canada. We[br]want them in at the earliest time. And
0:55:30.760,0:55:34.730
this is really the only solution. It's the[br]right solution for the these extraordinary
0:55:34.730,0:55:37.620
people. Applaus[br]Mic 2: Thank You.
0:55:37.620,0:55:46.920
Applause[br]So apparently we have Edward Snowden
0:55:46.920,0:55:51.030
back.The connection is established again.[br]There is a question for him, then he's run
0:55:51.030,0:55:54.960
to a microphone because that's your only[br]chance. That's probably the last question
0:55:54.960,0:55:59.930
of this session. Microphone number four,[br]what's your question? Qualified?
0:55:59.930,0:56:05.690
Mic. 4: Yes, I think so. What an aura.[br]Thought. Thank you, everybody. My question
0:56:05.690,0:56:14.610
quick. So, Mr. Snowden, you said we should[br]put pressure and make change. And do you
0:56:14.610,0:56:20.890
think we should pressure our own[br]government locally or that we pressure our
0:56:20.890,0:56:26.330
government to pressure other governments?[br]So, for example, which sanctions through
0:56:26.330,0:56:30.650
these countries that Mr. Tibbo mentioned?[br]That's a quick.
0:56:30.650,0:56:40.550
ES: Yes. I think we need to look at where[br]can we be the most effective. This is a
0:56:40.550,0:56:44.400
difficult question, I think, for people[br]who are in advanced democracies. And
0:56:44.400,0:56:47.360
because you see all the terrible things[br]that are happening all over the world, you
0:56:47.360,0:56:50.710
see the situation in Russia, you see the[br]situation in China, you see the Russia
0:56:50.710,0:56:55.570
situation in Iran and North Korea. And of[br]course, where you can make a difference, I
0:56:55.570,0:57:02.400
think you always should act. Even in my[br]case, there have been things where I have
0:57:02.400,0:57:06.660
been criticizing, of course, the Russian[br]government, even though I live here, even
0:57:06.660,0:57:11.800
though it's dangerous to do. I don't think[br]there's much likelihood that the Russian
0:57:11.800,0:57:16.530
government is likely to listen to me. I[br]don't think there's much likelihood that
0:57:16.530,0:57:22.610
the Russian people will listen to me in[br]that circumstance, because I'm not
0:57:22.610,0:57:30.020
Russian. I don't speak the language. I[br]can't persuade them. But you can persuade
0:57:30.020,0:57:34.540
the people that you're around. You can[br]persuade the community. And that's really
0:57:34.540,0:57:38.480
when we talk about hacking, when we talk[br]about systems. Right. The whole thing that
0:57:38.480,0:57:45.010
they used against us was, that they[br]thought, we thought, you know, the system,
0:57:45.010,0:57:50.870
our democracy, our methods of voting, our[br]methods of policing the Internet, of
0:57:50.870,0:57:58.100
managing and sharing our communications[br]worked in a certain way. And how they were
0:57:58.100,0:58:01.110
actually being used, how they were[br]actually being implemented, how they were
0:58:01.110,0:58:07.480
actually being operated in many cases[br]against us. That was not clear in secrecy.
0:58:07.480,0:58:13.880
In many cases was responsible for this.[br]But when you talk about where you can make
0:58:13.880,0:58:19.300
the most difference, it's in this room.[br]It's the friendships you make that you
0:58:19.300,0:58:23.720
take with you. It's the networks of[br]solidarity and influence that you build,
0:58:23.720,0:58:28.870
the sharing of skill sets and cooperation[br]that will allow you to influence people
0:58:28.870,0:58:33.830
even outside your areas of expertise,[br]going to politics, going to local
0:58:33.830,0:58:37.120
officials, using the local officials to[br]get the state officials, using the state
0:58:37.120,0:58:41.690
officials to get to national, using the[br]national to get to the international. What
0:58:41.690,0:58:47.120
we have to do is we have to take a hard[br]look at how the world actually operates
0:58:47.120,0:58:52.500
today. Not how we wanted to operate, not[br]how we think it operates, but to measure
0:58:52.500,0:58:55.880
it, to see how it's actually function and[br]to see where the money goes, to see who's
0:58:55.880,0:59:02.810
using it, to see where the influence is.[br]And in many cases, to seize control of
0:59:02.810,0:59:10.150
that via whatever means that we have[br]available to us. This is where we get the
0:59:10.150,0:59:14.750
technical systems that, the people in this[br]room have an extraordinary amount of
0:59:14.750,0:59:18.880
influence over that. We may not have in[br]the political realm. If you make a phone
0:59:18.880,0:59:23.540
call and that gets used around the world,[br]you can provide the same guarantees, the
0:59:23.540,0:59:27.750
same protection to someone in China, to[br]someone in Russia that they have in
0:59:27.750,0:59:34.610
Germany, because technology can be[br]agnostic to its use. And if we make these
0:59:34.610,0:59:41.470
carve outs, if we make these sort of[br]emissions, if we make concessions to
0:59:41.470,0:59:48.700
power, to system, to government, to[br]institutions, we have to think about how
0:59:48.700,0:59:54.800
they will be used. The more rules in the[br]system, the more lines of complexity there
0:59:54.800,1:00:00.710
are, the greater the unseen attack surface[br]that can be used against us. We need to
1:00:00.710,1:00:09.310
design for tomorrow. But there is no time[br]to wait. We need to be working today.
1:00:09.310,1:00:21.390
Applause.[br]And if I could just say one thing. Thank
1:00:21.390,1:00:24.590
you, everyone, for your patience and for[br]bearing with us through all of this. I'm
1:00:24.590,1:00:30.260
gonna shut up and give this back to[br]Robert, but everybody asks, you know, how
1:00:30.260,1:00:35.110
can I make a difference? This is all very[br]good. It's very abstract. Again, be
1:00:35.110,1:00:39.230
opportunistic. Look at where you can make[br]a difference right now. In the case of
1:00:39.230,1:00:43.230
these families, we are almost across the[br]finish line. We had been in this fight for
1:00:43.230,1:00:48.500
years and we are about to win. We can do[br]it with your help. So please, if you can
1:00:48.500,1:01:03.870
support them, do. Thank you.[br]Applause
1:01:03.870,1:01:09.360
Herald: I have to extend a huge thanks to[br]you, Mr. Robert, to go to you. Edward
1:01:09.360,1:01:14.010
Snowden, thank you for coming on our[br]stream and thank you, Vanessa, for coming
1:01:14.010,1:01:21.030
to us as well. This is, this was a lovely[br]event and Mr. Snowden asked you to help.
1:01:21.030,1:01:27.270
And this is how, this is how, Robert, if[br]you like to say some last words?
1:01:27.270,1:01:33.090
RT: I would. This has been a long fight.[br]It's we're in the eighth year now, and
1:01:33.090,1:01:39.770
there's no way that we're gonna get to the[br]finish line unless donations are made.
1:01:39.770,1:01:44.250
Whatever you can help with, if it's if[br]it's a small amount of change, that's
1:01:44.250,1:01:47.720
fine. If you can donate something more[br]significantly. Of course, that's going to
1:01:47.720,1:01:55.670
help. But it's all about food, rent,[br]utilities, and also for Vanessa and Keana
1:01:55.670,1:02:01.640
and Montreal. We, the NGO, is under a[br]legal obligation to continue to support
1:02:01.640,1:02:07.160
them financially for the first full year,[br]that they're there in Montreal and they do
1:02:07.160,1:02:13.430
need that support. The one thing all[br]stresses the climate has been a big shock
1:02:13.430,1:02:19.120
for Vanessa and Keana, and it costs a lot[br]of money to get winter jackets or, you
1:02:19.120,1:02:25.960
know, jackets for autumn shoes, boots. So[br]it's been at times it's been rough for
1:02:25.960,1:02:31.060
them. But one solution is the donations[br]that make sure they have warm clothes and
1:02:31.060,1:02:36.020
food, etc.. And of course, the clients in[br]Hong Kong that they have almost no
1:02:36.020,1:02:42.060
government humanitarian support. So if you[br]can donate. We continue to donate. We all
1:02:42.060,1:02:46.250
appreciate this. And thank you so much.
1:02:46.250,1:02:57.290
Applause
1:02:57.290,1:03:01.310
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