WEBVTT 00:00:00.460 --> 00:00:03.477 Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Marcelo Mena is an environmentalist 00:00:03.501 --> 00:00:04.652 and a scholar, 00:00:04.676 --> 00:00:07.482 and he is the former Minister of Environment for Chile. 00:00:07.506 --> 00:00:08.738 Welcome, Marcelo. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:09.590 --> 00:00:12.812 Marcelo Mena: How are you doing, Whitney? Thanks for the invitation. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:12.836 --> 00:00:13.988 WPR: Perfect. Great. 00:00:14.012 --> 00:00:16.769 Of course, thank you so much for being with us here today. 00:00:16.793 --> 00:00:20.049 And you know, before we dive into the future of climate action 00:00:20.073 --> 00:00:21.715 in Chile and beyond, 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:24.574 I think it would be great for us to talk about the present 00:00:24.598 --> 00:00:29.942 and why Chile really represents a country that is worth thinking about 00:00:29.966 --> 00:00:31.985 when we talk about climate. 00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:35.618 You know, recently there have been lots of commendable actions 00:00:35.642 --> 00:00:40.366 taken by your country when we think about climate. 00:00:40.390 --> 00:00:44.931 Chile recently committed to net-zero emissions by 2050, 00:00:44.955 --> 00:00:47.012 the first in the Americas to do this, 00:00:47.036 --> 00:00:49.928 and that's especially notable when you think about 00:00:49.952 --> 00:00:54.116 how much of Chile's economy really depends on carbon emissions: 00:00:54.140 --> 00:00:56.847 mining and agriculture and spaces like that. 00:00:56.871 --> 00:00:59.374 So could you start a little bit by just talking about 00:00:59.398 --> 00:01:03.300 how would this even be possible to get to net-zero emissions in 30 years, 00:01:03.324 --> 00:01:05.947 and what would that mean for Chile? NOTE Paragraph 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:09.927 MM: Mm-hmm. It was a very surreal image 00:01:09.951 --> 00:01:14.561 when we saw Minister Schmidt, the COP25 president, 00:01:14.585 --> 00:01:17.245 Patricia Espinosa, the UN head on climate change, 00:01:17.269 --> 00:01:21.383 with masks, delivering this new NDC. 00:01:21.407 --> 00:01:26.091 The important thing here is, things that are hard to build require consensus, 00:01:26.115 --> 00:01:30.704 but therefore to get rid of that commitment, 00:01:30.728 --> 00:01:32.456 you need to have another consensus. 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:33.645 This hasn't happened, 00:01:33.669 --> 00:01:39.098 so the thing is, the reason why Chile has a sort of vision towards mitigation 00:01:39.122 --> 00:01:40.431 that's ambitious 00:01:40.455 --> 00:01:43.042 is that we see that there's a big economic benefit. 00:01:43.066 --> 00:01:44.822 We have seen, we've witnessed, 00:01:44.846 --> 00:01:48.133 what the renewable energy sector has been able to do for investment, 00:01:48.157 --> 00:01:50.329 for lowering energy costs. 00:01:50.353 --> 00:01:52.802 And so therefore to reach this goal, 00:01:52.826 --> 00:01:56.539 we will inevitably expand to 100 percent renewable, 00:01:56.563 --> 00:02:00.196 but we'll also transform our industry, which is heavy on fossil fuels, 00:02:00.220 --> 00:02:01.569 towards low emissions, 00:02:01.593 --> 00:02:03.521 with the hydrogen economy kicking in, 00:02:03.545 --> 00:02:06.115 with a recently launched committee that I formed, 00:02:06.139 --> 00:02:09.453 that Minister Jobet, the Minister of Energy, set up. 00:02:09.477 --> 00:02:13.753 And also energy efficiency and a lot of capture, carbon capture. 00:02:13.777 --> 00:02:17.015 We are endowed with a lot of natural capital. 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.015 Taking care of that natural capital and expanding plantations 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.787 will allow us to reach net-zero by 2050. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:24.358 --> 00:02:25.541 WPR: That's great. 00:02:25.565 --> 00:02:28.572 And now it seems like Chile has such a huge focus, then, 00:02:28.596 --> 00:02:32.024 in thinking about renewable energy and thinking about climate. 00:02:32.048 --> 00:02:33.640 But this wasn't always the case. 00:02:33.664 --> 00:02:35.448 Could you talk a little bit, I guess, 00:02:35.472 --> 00:02:38.363 about the history of how Chile arrived at this moment? NOTE Paragraph 00:02:39.712 --> 00:02:43.045 MM: Yeah, so in 2011, 2010, 00:02:43.069 --> 00:02:45.698 we had an energy discussion 00:02:45.722 --> 00:02:49.126 with incumbents saying the only way we could solve our energy problems 00:02:49.150 --> 00:02:52.412 will be through large coal and large hydro in the Patagonia. 00:02:52.436 --> 00:02:54.644 And that really polarized the discussion. 00:02:54.668 --> 00:02:58.717 We got together as a community after large protests 00:02:58.741 --> 00:03:00.782 that triggered a lot of social movements, 00:03:00.806 --> 00:03:02.221 and we started discussing 00:03:02.245 --> 00:03:05.994 how we should be able to do our energy going forward. 00:03:06.018 --> 00:03:10.756 The population, public unrest, set up almost 6,000 megawatts 00:03:10.780 --> 00:03:13.344 of coal-fired power plants to never be built. 00:03:13.368 --> 00:03:17.016 And when the government, Michelle Bachelet's government came in, 00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:19.220 we pulled the plug on the HidroAysén project, 00:03:19.244 --> 00:03:22.156 which is a big hydro project in the Patagonia. 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:25.836 And both of these conditions enabled an opportunity 00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:27.725 for renewable energy to set in. 00:03:27.749 --> 00:03:29.301 We put in carbon taxes, 00:03:29.325 --> 00:03:31.825 we put in environmental regulations, 00:03:31.849 --> 00:03:36.976 and we set up an energy strategy that we did, building on discussing 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.376 and looking at the data, 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:42.766 in which we thought that the 70 percent renewable energy by 2050 00:03:42.790 --> 00:03:45.045 was going to be a target that we could agree on. 00:03:45.069 --> 00:03:47.612 This target has been long surpassed. 00:03:47.636 --> 00:03:50.996 Now we're thinking of reaching that same goal by 2030. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:53.346 --> 00:03:57.545 WPR: And what you were saying about social protests, 00:03:57.569 --> 00:04:00.547 that's something that a lot of people maybe have been following 00:04:00.571 --> 00:04:03.969 news of what's going in Chile are familiar with recent social protests, 00:04:03.993 --> 00:04:07.390 and I think I'm curious about how you see that factoring in 00:04:07.414 --> 00:04:09.088 to climate action moving forward. 00:04:09.112 --> 00:04:11.539 How might these social protests 00:04:11.563 --> 00:04:13.939 play a role in what climate action you see? 00:04:13.963 --> 00:04:18.718 And, really, how is it possible for Chile to be a leader in climate action 00:04:18.742 --> 00:04:22.547 while also struggling with some of these social issues? NOTE Paragraph 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:25.282 MM: Well, the social issues, 00:04:25.306 --> 00:04:28.406 which are very profound and important to address, 00:04:28.430 --> 00:04:31.987 caused, for example, COP25 to not be able to be held in Santiago 00:04:32.011 --> 00:04:33.788 and to go to Madrid. 00:04:33.812 --> 00:04:37.250 And this also shifted a whole bunch of the discussions and announcements 00:04:37.274 --> 00:04:38.429 that weren't done 00:04:38.453 --> 00:04:39.933 and we were expecting to have. 00:04:39.957 --> 00:04:41.349 But regardless of this, 00:04:41.373 --> 00:04:45.456 the fact that we have this commitment from the government today 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.137 shows that there's a resolution to continue forward. 00:04:48.161 --> 00:04:54.373 But really, the economic model of Chile was brought into question, 00:04:54.397 --> 00:04:59.198 because the environmental issues, for example, are quite widespread, 00:04:59.222 --> 00:05:02.932 and many times you have large coal-fired power plants 00:05:02.956 --> 00:05:05.670 being situated where people live 00:05:05.694 --> 00:05:07.576 and with higher mortality rates. 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.667 Somebody who lives where a power plant is installed 00:05:10.691 --> 00:05:13.872 has twice the rate of death 00:05:13.896 --> 00:05:16.048 in comparison to other people in Chile. 00:05:16.072 --> 00:05:21.637 So the model of having many people be impacted for the benefit of few 00:05:21.661 --> 00:05:25.218 is something that caused and triggered the social unrest. 00:05:25.242 --> 00:05:27.689 And it goes into the economic model itself 00:05:27.713 --> 00:05:31.250 of extracting, polluting, impacting communities 00:05:31.274 --> 00:05:34.268 that may not see the benefits of these economic activities. 00:05:34.292 --> 00:05:35.667 So while we've done a lot -- 00:05:35.691 --> 00:05:41.275 we've come a long way, for example, in securing a very emblematic agreement 00:05:41.299 --> 00:05:43.776 to phase out coal-fired power plants -- 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.182 many people feel that this wasn't done fast enough 00:05:46.206 --> 00:05:48.722 and want this action to be brought faster. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:49.952 --> 00:05:54.922 WPR: And it sounds like having people be the voice and the engine 00:05:54.946 --> 00:05:56.274 behind making that happen 00:05:56.298 --> 00:05:59.445 has really been part of this historical thread 00:05:59.469 --> 00:06:01.785 with climate action in Chile 00:06:01.809 --> 00:06:05.514 and seems like it would really lead things moving into the future. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:07.285 --> 00:06:11.358 MM: No, definitely, and we will continue. Yes, go ahead. Sorry. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:11.382 --> 00:06:15.007 WPR: Go ahead. Please go ahead. We have a little bit of a delay. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:15.031 --> 00:06:20.096 MM: Going forward, we're going to be ... Starting out, we are doing well, 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.717 but I think we need to double down on our commitments. 00:06:22.741 --> 00:06:24.780 So even though we have ministries involved, 00:06:24.804 --> 00:06:27.115 we have civil society involved, 00:06:27.139 --> 00:06:30.197 we need to bring in the mainstream industry. 00:06:30.221 --> 00:06:33.591 I think, for example, the mining sector has a great opportunity 00:06:33.615 --> 00:06:36.372 to be the solution for the environmental issues, 00:06:36.396 --> 00:06:39.693 because we provide the copper, the cobalt, the lithium 00:06:39.717 --> 00:06:43.556 that are required for solar PV panels, for battery storage. 00:06:43.580 --> 00:06:45.556 But we need to do this in a clean manner. 00:06:45.580 --> 00:06:48.295 I think that's the biggest challenge we're going to have 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:49.814 in the next 20 years ahead. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:51.207 --> 00:06:53.466 WPR: And sort of pivoting to the pandemic 00:06:53.490 --> 00:06:55.820 and to thinking about what's going on right now, 00:06:55.844 --> 00:06:59.174 the entire world has obviously been devastated by this crisis. 00:06:59.198 --> 00:07:03.694 What have been some of the unique challenges that Chile has faced 00:07:03.718 --> 00:07:05.120 during this pandemic? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:06.303 --> 00:07:08.003 MM: Well, definitely, as anybody, 00:07:08.027 --> 00:07:10.887 we are always struggling within 00:07:10.911 --> 00:07:15.269 taking actions today to prevent a deeper impact in the future. 00:07:15.293 --> 00:07:17.871 And we started off pretty well. 00:07:17.895 --> 00:07:19.415 We shut off schools. 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:23.689 We shut off different cities and had a quarantine. 00:07:23.713 --> 00:07:27.555 But we gave the wrong signals to people 00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:29.552 and we didn't have a consistent effort, 00:07:29.576 --> 00:07:32.906 and this has brought us to have the highest infection rates per capita 00:07:32.930 --> 00:07:34.500 in the world these days. 00:07:34.524 --> 00:07:38.009 So this goes to show that -- the same parallels with climate change. 00:07:38.033 --> 00:07:41.261 We need to take action now to prevent deeper impact later. 00:07:41.285 --> 00:07:43.928 And I think we need to take the lesson of this 00:07:43.952 --> 00:07:46.714 to continue with an effort, 00:07:46.738 --> 00:07:50.230 because one thing is to announce an ambitious NDC. 00:07:50.254 --> 00:07:53.752 Another thing is to invest and do the regulations that you require 00:07:53.776 --> 00:07:55.125 to turn this into reality. 00:07:55.149 --> 00:07:57.362 But there are some things that are interesting. 00:07:57.386 --> 00:07:58.647 The pollution in Santiago, 00:07:58.671 --> 00:08:02.141 which is one of the most polluted capitals historically in Latin America, 00:08:02.165 --> 00:08:03.423 has dropped substantially. 00:08:03.447 --> 00:08:06.349 The car-related emissions are down almost 80 to 90 percent, 00:08:06.373 --> 00:08:08.195 which is pretty substantive. 00:08:08.219 --> 00:08:11.823 And we look at the example of what's going on. 00:08:11.847 --> 00:08:13.788 Harvard University showed a study 00:08:13.812 --> 00:08:17.290 in which they showed higher mortality rates for more polluted cities. 00:08:17.314 --> 00:08:19.005 And this is also the case in Chile. 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:23.896 For every microgram of pollution, PM2.5, there is an increase of the fatality rate 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:25.075 of nine percent. 00:08:25.099 --> 00:08:28.654 But the thing is, we could also look back at what we've achieved up to now. 00:08:28.678 --> 00:08:30.725 Had we not taken measures to clean the air, 00:08:30.749 --> 00:08:34.047 as we've done in Chile these last 20 years, 00:08:34.071 --> 00:08:37.768 we would be talking about five times more people would have died from COVID. 00:08:37.792 --> 00:08:42.171 We have around 800 people that have died due to COVID directly, 00:08:42.195 --> 00:08:46.495 but this would have been much higher had we not taken action. 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:48.861 And in fact, due to the lower pollution, 00:08:48.885 --> 00:08:52.976 if we estimate and predict this to the rest of the year, 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:56.222 we will have saved as many lives reducing the pollution 00:08:56.246 --> 00:08:57.949 as we have lost in COVID, 00:08:57.973 --> 00:09:00.874 showing that there's a pandemic that we also need to address, 00:09:00.898 --> 00:09:05.295 which is the crisis on air pollution that suffocates many cities in the world. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:06.849 --> 00:09:10.031 WPR: And it seems like that's probably something that we're seeing 00:09:10.055 --> 00:09:11.597 in other areas around the world. 00:09:11.621 --> 00:09:15.325 As you're suggesting, air pollution is a problem everywhere. 00:09:15.349 --> 00:09:17.652 And I'm curious also 00:09:17.676 --> 00:09:22.442 how these challenges that you've mentioned, and maybe others, 00:09:22.466 --> 00:09:24.928 might hinder or help 00:09:24.952 --> 00:09:27.325 some of this progress that you're hoping to make 00:09:27.349 --> 00:09:28.926 towards climate action. 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:31.647 How do you see this factoring in to some of the decisions 00:09:31.671 --> 00:09:34.681 that might be made going forward in Chile and beyond? NOTE Paragraph 00:09:35.972 --> 00:09:39.212 MM: OK, so we have a higher fatality rate and more polluted cities, 00:09:39.236 --> 00:09:41.716 and we have a climate action to carry out. 00:09:41.740 --> 00:09:43.748 This is going to be a decisive decade, 00:09:43.772 --> 00:09:48.467 in which we need to lay the groundwork for our lower-emissions strategies. 00:09:48.491 --> 00:09:53.302 So whatever we do today cannot lock us in to an incompatible climate future. 00:09:53.326 --> 00:09:57.249 We need to lay the groundwork for this low-emissions transition. 00:09:57.273 --> 00:10:00.402 So therefore, our green recovery efforts need to be done, 00:10:00.426 --> 00:10:03.006 as Kristalina [Georgieva] spoke last week, 00:10:03.030 --> 00:10:07.202 has to be related to a green recovery that creates jobs immediately, 00:10:07.226 --> 00:10:11.023 that addresses the poverty issues that we have on energy 00:10:11.047 --> 00:10:12.356 today in southern Chile, 00:10:12.380 --> 00:10:15.298 and we need to use this for expanding renewable energy 00:10:15.322 --> 00:10:18.827 and expanding the successful efforts that we've done on electromobility. 00:10:18.851 --> 00:10:23.774 Today, we have the largest fleet of electric buses outside of China, 00:10:23.798 --> 00:10:26.764 but we could actually make this go even bigger, 00:10:26.788 --> 00:10:31.668 because we've seen that the reductions in cost have been almost 70 percent 00:10:31.692 --> 00:10:33.437 in comparison to diesel buses. 00:10:33.461 --> 00:10:35.974 So we should use this opportunity to expand. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:35.998 --> 00:10:38.625 And multiple stakeholders are working. 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:41.568 We're working together to call on the government 00:10:41.592 --> 00:10:43.054 to do a green recovery, 00:10:43.078 --> 00:10:45.637 to use the green bonds that we've already issued 00:10:45.661 --> 00:10:50.467 and under which we've gotten really low rates for interest rates, 00:10:50.491 --> 00:10:53.737 to do and fund cleaning the air, 00:10:53.761 --> 00:10:55.118 cleaning the transportation 00:10:55.142 --> 00:10:58.975 and laying the groundwork for a cleaner tomorrow in the mining sector, 00:10:58.999 --> 00:11:01.876 which is our biggest challenge going forward. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:02.669 --> 00:11:06.378 WPR: And then as far as the way that you think about 00:11:06.402 --> 00:11:08.922 and conceptualize climate action, 00:11:08.946 --> 00:11:12.351 have you personally had any changes to your thinking, 00:11:12.375 --> 00:11:15.987 just as a result of what you're seeing through this pandemic? NOTE Paragraph 00:11:17.348 --> 00:11:19.733 MM: Yeah, I think we start looking around, 00:11:19.757 --> 00:11:25.167 everybody had to struggle and find that we could do much more with less, 00:11:25.191 --> 00:11:27.894 and keeping a full economy 00:11:27.918 --> 00:11:31.099 that requires you to buy an extra t-shirt that you don't need, 00:11:31.123 --> 00:11:35.164 the fact that we're using three times more clothes 00:11:35.188 --> 00:11:36.955 than we were maybe 20 years ago 00:11:36.979 --> 00:11:40.595 shows that we are blowing up an economy that requires us 00:11:40.619 --> 00:11:42.814 to destroy the environment, in a way, 00:11:42.838 --> 00:11:45.609 to continue forward. 00:11:45.633 --> 00:11:48.793 And the food system is going to be probably our biggest challenge, 00:11:48.817 --> 00:11:53.500 and even though I've been working with electric buses and electromobility 00:11:53.524 --> 00:11:57.228 and just the more conventional mitigation, 00:11:57.252 --> 00:11:59.199 I think our biggest cultural challenge 00:11:59.223 --> 00:12:02.647 will be to talk about how our food decisions 00:12:02.671 --> 00:12:08.138 impact the way that we will have a future. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:08.162 --> 00:12:10.455 "Nature" just put out a report 00:12:10.479 --> 00:12:14.237 that showed something that when we were in the government, we had talked about. 00:12:14.261 --> 00:12:16.018 When Chile was good in soccer, 00:12:16.042 --> 00:12:22.148 we started going deeper into the wintertime contests, 00:12:22.172 --> 00:12:23.599 and we started winning games. 00:12:23.623 --> 00:12:26.714 But to win those games, we started doing a lot of barbecues, 00:12:26.738 --> 00:12:29.097 and the paper that came out showed something that, 00:12:29.121 --> 00:12:30.702 when we explained this to people, 00:12:30.726 --> 00:12:33.894 that you guys are messing up the air with barbecues, 00:12:33.918 --> 00:12:35.324 people thought we were crazy. 00:12:35.348 --> 00:12:40.683 Well, the "Nature" report now shows that we actually fouled the air 00:12:40.707 --> 00:12:42.921 and destroyed the air, annihilated the air, 00:12:42.945 --> 00:12:45.134 because we wanted to celebrate the soccer. 00:12:45.158 --> 00:12:48.583 And we set this up to people, and people thought we were crazy. 00:12:48.607 --> 00:12:52.284 Now people acknowledge the fact that the basic things that you could do, 00:12:52.308 --> 00:12:54.469 such as the way that you choose how to cook, 00:12:54.493 --> 00:12:56.285 could actually impact your air. 00:12:56.309 --> 00:13:00.847 So I think going forward these cultural challenges that we need to do, 00:13:00.871 --> 00:13:02.367 we need to tackle them head-on. 00:13:02.391 --> 00:13:04.153 We should need to show the evidence. 00:13:04.177 --> 00:13:06.667 Otherwise, we're just going to be ignoring problems 00:13:06.691 --> 00:13:08.747 and letting them perpetuate for the future. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:10.967 --> 00:13:14.382 WPR: And, you know, for nations who have not really prioritized climate 00:13:14.406 --> 00:13:16.588 in the same way that Chile has, 00:13:16.612 --> 00:13:19.506 are there lessons that you think can be learned 00:13:19.530 --> 00:13:22.433 from some of the choices that Chile has made in recent years 00:13:22.457 --> 00:13:24.123 that other nations can apply, 00:13:24.147 --> 00:13:28.238 and how could folks in other countries implement some of these strategies 00:13:28.262 --> 00:13:30.257 that you implemented in Chile? NOTE Paragraph 00:13:31.523 --> 00:13:33.975 MM: So, many people in the US and across the world 00:13:33.999 --> 00:13:35.534 know about the Chilean sea bass. 00:13:35.558 --> 00:13:39.772 The Chilean sea bass was overfished and almost collapsed. 00:13:39.796 --> 00:13:43.479 One of the things that we did under the support from "National Geographic" 00:13:43.503 --> 00:13:45.600 and with the leadership of President Bachelet 00:13:45.624 --> 00:13:47.336 was to expand marine protection, 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.632 from four percent of our oceans to 43 percent within one government, 00:13:50.656 --> 00:13:52.415 which is the largest leap. 00:13:52.439 --> 00:13:56.923 There's only comparison to the US during Obama in terms of protection. 00:13:56.947 --> 00:14:01.413 And this is because we want this population also to recover. 00:14:01.437 --> 00:14:06.935 You know, when you let the park stop fishing, 00:14:06.959 --> 00:14:09.229 the overflow from the fishing 00:14:09.253 --> 00:14:12.061 will actually increase the biomass sixfold. 00:14:12.085 --> 00:14:15.153 So I think one of the efforts that we need to do 00:14:15.177 --> 00:14:17.708 as we talk about the biodiversity convention 00:14:17.732 --> 00:14:19.527 that's going to happen this next year 00:14:19.551 --> 00:14:22.606 is that we need to change our relationship to the environment. 00:14:22.630 --> 00:14:25.596 We need to protect and conserve our ecosystems, 00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:28.917 so they provide the services that they do today. 00:14:28.941 --> 00:14:32.679 Today, 96 percent of all mammals, land mammals, 00:14:32.703 --> 00:14:35.020 are humans or stuff humans eat. 00:14:35.044 --> 00:14:38.322 Only four percent of land mammals are wild. 00:14:38.346 --> 00:14:40.771 When I heard that data, from "National Geographic," 00:14:40.795 --> 00:14:41.960 for the first time, 00:14:41.984 --> 00:14:43.140 I couldn't believe it. 00:14:43.164 --> 00:14:45.556 We've changed our relationship with the planet, 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:48.674 and we're suffering these decisions 00:14:48.698 --> 00:14:51.805 because we see zoonotic diseases -- not just coronavirus -- 00:14:51.829 --> 00:14:53.936 spread time after time. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:56.398 --> 00:15:00.175 WPR: And we have Bruno here -- hi, Bruno -- with a question from the community. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:00.199 --> 00:15:02.466 Bruno Giussani: Hi. Absolutely. Hello, Marcelo. 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:05.015 This is a question from Melissa Mahoney. 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.092 She asks if you can expand on what economic benefits 00:15:09.116 --> 00:15:11.996 of net-zero emissions are. 00:15:12.020 --> 00:15:15.619 And especially, could those benefits be the same for Chile 00:15:15.643 --> 00:15:17.390 and for other countries? NOTE Paragraph 00:15:19.363 --> 00:15:20.514 MM: Good. 00:15:20.538 --> 00:15:22.678 For example, when I worked in the World Bank, 00:15:22.702 --> 00:15:25.370 we supported Chile to look into the macroeconomic impacts 00:15:25.394 --> 00:15:27.006 of the net-zero target. 00:15:27.030 --> 00:15:31.679 And it was shown that Chile will grow 4.4 percent more. 00:15:31.703 --> 00:15:34.574 So we turned the risk of climate change, 00:15:34.598 --> 00:15:37.466 and we turned it into an opportunity of expanded growth. 00:15:37.490 --> 00:15:40.669 This manifests in lower transportation costs, 00:15:40.693 --> 00:15:42.553 lower energy costs, 00:15:42.577 --> 00:15:45.299 and this makes the economy more competitive. 00:15:45.323 --> 00:15:48.916 The costs of reaching the net-zero target 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:54.869 are much lower than the benefits that we will have to reap. 00:15:54.893 --> 00:15:57.472 And we're not even talking about cleaner air benefits, 00:15:57.496 --> 00:15:59.577 we're talking about direct economic benefits 00:15:59.601 --> 00:16:01.147 of having increased investments, 00:16:01.171 --> 00:16:04.402 which is something that every country will require in these years 00:16:04.426 --> 00:16:06.277 to recover from the COVID crisis, 00:16:06.301 --> 00:16:07.509 and lower energy costs. 00:16:07.533 --> 00:16:08.833 So that's how it manifests, 00:16:08.857 --> 00:16:10.890 and this is a consensus today 00:16:10.914 --> 00:16:13.006 that we need to have more renewable energy 00:16:13.030 --> 00:16:16.776 because this is the way that we've had cleaner air and lower energy costs. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:25.522 BG: There is another question from someone in the audience, asking, 00:16:25.546 --> 00:16:30.092 "Countries across Latin America have very different attitudes on climate. 00:16:30.116 --> 00:16:31.461 Can you comment on that?" NOTE Paragraph 00:16:32.672 --> 00:16:36.103 MM: So Pew Research Center has been putting out reports 00:16:36.127 --> 00:16:40.463 regarding what is the main external threat that you have. 00:16:40.487 --> 00:16:42.683 And in Europe, in the US, 00:16:42.707 --> 00:16:45.483 the biggest threat was either China or ISIS 00:16:45.507 --> 00:16:47.726 or some external bellicose threat. 00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:51.259 In Latin America and Africa, it's climate change, number one, 00:16:51.283 --> 00:16:54.543 and Chile is one of the highest, with 86 percent of Chileans 00:16:54.567 --> 00:16:58.174 saying that climate change is the greatest external threat. 00:16:58.198 --> 00:17:02.451 And this is also very high across the region. 00:17:02.475 --> 00:17:06.822 We could have populist governments coming in, changing their priorities, 00:17:06.846 --> 00:17:08.883 but the reality is, people are concerned, 00:17:08.907 --> 00:17:11.606 because they see the threat of climate change every day, 00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:14.732 and regardless of whether the national government believes in it, 00:17:14.756 --> 00:17:15.915 climate change is real 00:17:15.939 --> 00:17:18.837 and is causing impacts and causing poverty in the region. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:20.117 --> 00:17:22.234 BG: Thank you, Marcelo. Back to you, Whitney. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:22.666 --> 00:17:24.286 WPR: Thank you. Thank you, Bruno. 00:17:24.310 --> 00:17:28.075 And Marcelo, just one last question before we actually say goodbye, 00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:31.732 which is just, knowing that you were involved in the negotiations 00:17:31.756 --> 00:17:32.978 for the Paris Agreement, 00:17:33.002 --> 00:17:35.698 are there things that you take from that experience 00:17:35.722 --> 00:17:37.529 that you can apply to this moment 00:17:37.553 --> 00:17:40.893 as we think about emerging from this crisis 00:17:40.917 --> 00:17:43.338 and coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:44.726 --> 00:17:45.902 MM: Yes, 00:17:45.926 --> 00:17:49.517 that there will always be a populist that will be opposing climate action, 00:17:49.541 --> 00:17:52.899 and the way to get at this is to make the economic case, 00:17:52.923 --> 00:17:54.544 so regardless of what happens, 00:17:54.568 --> 00:17:58.104 there will be an economic case for spending on renewable energy. 00:17:58.128 --> 00:18:02.039 The US grew its renewable energy investments around 40 percent last year. 00:18:02.063 --> 00:18:04.060 In Brazil, it grew almost 10 percent. 00:18:04.084 --> 00:18:07.004 And so therefore, if we are able to align the economic goals 00:18:07.028 --> 00:18:08.212 with climate goals, 00:18:08.236 --> 00:18:10.749 you will be able to make this go forward. 00:18:10.773 --> 00:18:14.885 There's the Network for Greening the Financial System 00:18:14.909 --> 00:18:16.910 that puts together central bankers. 00:18:16.934 --> 00:18:20.814 The World Bank launched a coalition of finance ministers for climate action. 00:18:20.838 --> 00:18:22.932 These are great efforts 00:18:22.956 --> 00:18:27.403 that will allow us to have the financial system support climate action 00:18:27.427 --> 00:18:29.510 because there's an economic benefit, 00:18:29.534 --> 00:18:33.121 because it's important for you, for your fiduciary responsibilities, 00:18:33.145 --> 00:18:35.270 to disclose the risks you have, 00:18:35.294 --> 00:18:37.445 both transitionally and physically. 00:18:37.469 --> 00:18:38.926 And if we are able to do this, 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:41.189 regardless of what negotiations happen, 00:18:41.213 --> 00:18:45.944 because there will always be problems with the consensus, 00:18:45.968 --> 00:18:48.635 you will continue to have a resilient approach 00:18:48.659 --> 00:18:50.496 because climate action will continue 00:18:50.520 --> 00:18:53.461 because you can have the economic system support this. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.943 WPR: That's really great. 00:18:55.967 --> 00:18:58.122 Thank you so much, Marcelo, for being with us 00:18:58.146 --> 00:19:00.208 to share your perspective and your insight. 00:19:00.232 --> 00:19:03.913 It's really great to sort of zoom in on some of the things happening in Chile 00:19:03.937 --> 00:19:06.770 and how that might apply to all of us all over the world. 00:19:06.794 --> 00:19:08.809 Thank you for joining us today. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:08.833 --> 00:19:09.258 MM: Thanks.