1 00:00:00,460 --> 00:00:03,477 Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Marcelo Mena is an environmentalist 2 00:00:03,501 --> 00:00:04,652 and a scholar, 3 00:00:04,676 --> 00:00:07,482 and he is the former Minister of Environment for Chile. 4 00:00:07,506 --> 00:00:08,738 Welcome, Marcelo. 5 00:00:09,590 --> 00:00:12,812 Marcelo Mena: How are you doing, Whitney? Thanks for the invitation. 6 00:00:12,836 --> 00:00:13,988 WPR: Perfect. Great. 7 00:00:14,012 --> 00:00:16,769 Of course, thank you so much for being with us here today. 8 00:00:16,793 --> 00:00:20,049 And you know, before we dive into the future of climate action 9 00:00:20,073 --> 00:00:21,715 in Chile and beyond, 10 00:00:21,739 --> 00:00:24,574 I think it would be great for us to talk about the present 11 00:00:24,598 --> 00:00:29,942 and why Chile really represents a country that is worth thinking about 12 00:00:29,966 --> 00:00:31,985 when we talk about climate. 13 00:00:32,009 --> 00:00:35,618 You know, recently there have been lots of commendable actions 14 00:00:35,642 --> 00:00:40,366 taken by your country when we think about climate. 15 00:00:40,390 --> 00:00:44,931 Chile recently committed to net-zero emissions by 2050, 16 00:00:44,955 --> 00:00:47,012 the first in the Americas to do this, 17 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:49,928 and that's especially notable when you think about 18 00:00:49,952 --> 00:00:54,116 how much of Chile's economy really depends on carbon emissions: 19 00:00:54,140 --> 00:00:56,847 mining and agriculture and spaces like that. 20 00:00:56,871 --> 00:00:59,374 So could you start a little bit by just talking about 21 00:00:59,398 --> 00:01:03,300 how would this even be possible to get to net-zero emissions in 30 years, 22 00:01:03,324 --> 00:01:05,947 and what would that mean for Chile? 23 00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:09,927 MM: Mm-hmm. It was a very surreal image 24 00:01:09,951 --> 00:01:14,561 when we saw Minister Schmidt, the COP25 president, 25 00:01:14,585 --> 00:01:17,245 Patricia Espinosa, the UN head on climate change, 26 00:01:17,269 --> 00:01:21,383 with masks, delivering this new NDC. 27 00:01:21,407 --> 00:01:26,091 The important thing here is, things that are hard to build require consensus, 28 00:01:26,115 --> 00:01:30,704 but therefore to get rid of that commitment, 29 00:01:30,728 --> 00:01:32,456 you need to have another consensus. 30 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,645 This hasn't happened, 31 00:01:33,669 --> 00:01:39,098 so the thing is, the reason why Chile has a sort of vision towards mitigation 32 00:01:39,122 --> 00:01:40,431 that's ambitious 33 00:01:40,455 --> 00:01:43,042 is that we see that there's a big economic benefit. 34 00:01:43,066 --> 00:01:44,822 We have seen, we've witnessed, 35 00:01:44,846 --> 00:01:48,133 what the renewable energy sector has been able to do for investment, 36 00:01:48,157 --> 00:01:50,329 for lowering energy costs. 37 00:01:50,353 --> 00:01:52,802 And so therefore to reach this goal, 38 00:01:52,826 --> 00:01:56,539 we will inevitably expand to 100 percent renewable, 39 00:01:56,563 --> 00:02:00,196 but we'll also transform our industry, which is heavy on fossil fuels, 40 00:02:00,220 --> 00:02:01,569 towards low emissions, 41 00:02:01,593 --> 00:02:03,521 with the hydrogen economy kicking in, 42 00:02:03,545 --> 00:02:06,115 with a recently launched committee that I formed, 43 00:02:06,139 --> 00:02:09,453 that Minister Jobet, the Minister of Energy, set up. 44 00:02:09,477 --> 00:02:13,753 And also energy efficiency and a lot of capture, carbon capture. 45 00:02:13,777 --> 00:02:17,015 We are endowed with a lot of natural capital. 46 00:02:17,039 --> 00:02:20,015 Taking care of that natural capital and expanding plantations 47 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:22,787 will allow us to reach net-zero by 2050. 48 00:02:24,358 --> 00:02:25,541 WPR: That's great. 49 00:02:25,565 --> 00:02:28,572 And now it seems like Chile has such a huge focus, then, 50 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:32,024 in thinking about renewable energy and thinking about climate. 51 00:02:32,048 --> 00:02:33,640 But this wasn't always the case. 52 00:02:33,664 --> 00:02:35,448 Could you talk a little bit, I guess, 53 00:02:35,472 --> 00:02:38,363 about the history of how Chile arrived at this moment? 54 00:02:39,712 --> 00:02:43,045 MM: Yeah, so in 2011, 2010, 55 00:02:43,069 --> 00:02:45,698 we had an energy discussion 56 00:02:45,722 --> 00:02:49,126 with incumbents saying the only way we could solve our energy problems 57 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:52,412 will be through large coal and large hydro in the Patagonia. 58 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:54,644 And that really polarized the discussion. 59 00:02:54,668 --> 00:02:58,717 We got together as a community after large protests 60 00:02:58,741 --> 00:03:00,782 that triggered a lot of social movements, 61 00:03:00,806 --> 00:03:02,221 and we started discussing 62 00:03:02,245 --> 00:03:05,994 how we should be able to do our energy going forward. 63 00:03:06,018 --> 00:03:10,756 The population, public unrest, set up almost 6,000 megawatts 64 00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:13,344 of coal-fired power plants to never be built. 65 00:03:13,368 --> 00:03:17,016 And when the government, Michelle Bachelet's government came in, 66 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,220 we pulled the plug on the HidroAysén project, 67 00:03:19,244 --> 00:03:22,156 which is a big hydro project in the Patagonia. 68 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:25,836 And both of these conditions enabled an opportunity 69 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:27,725 for renewable energy to set in. 70 00:03:27,749 --> 00:03:29,301 We put in carbon taxes, 71 00:03:29,325 --> 00:03:31,825 we put in environmental regulations, 72 00:03:31,849 --> 00:03:36,976 and we set up an energy strategy that we did, building on discussing 73 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,376 and looking at the data, 74 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,766 in which we thought that the 70 percent renewable energy by 2050 75 00:03:42,790 --> 00:03:45,045 was going to be a target that we could agree on. 76 00:03:45,069 --> 00:03:47,612 This target has been long surpassed. 77 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:50,996 Now we're thinking of reaching that same goal by 2030. 78 00:03:53,346 --> 00:03:57,545 WPR: And what you were saying about social protests, 79 00:03:57,569 --> 00:04:00,547 that's something that a lot of people maybe have been following 80 00:04:00,571 --> 00:04:03,969 news of what's going in Chile are familiar with recent social protests, 81 00:04:03,993 --> 00:04:07,390 and I think I'm curious about how you see that factoring in 82 00:04:07,414 --> 00:04:09,088 to climate action moving forward. 83 00:04:09,112 --> 00:04:11,539 How might these social protests 84 00:04:11,563 --> 00:04:13,939 play a role in what climate action you see? 85 00:04:13,963 --> 00:04:18,718 And, really, how is it possible for Chile to be a leader in climate action 86 00:04:18,742 --> 00:04:22,547 while also struggling with some of these social issues? 87 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,282 MM: Well, the social issues, 88 00:04:25,306 --> 00:04:28,406 which are very profound and important to address, 89 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:31,987 caused, for example, COP25 to not be able to be held in Santiago 90 00:04:32,011 --> 00:04:33,788 and to go to Madrid. 91 00:04:33,812 --> 00:04:37,250 And this also shifted a whole bunch of the discussions and announcements 92 00:04:37,274 --> 00:04:38,429 that weren't done 93 00:04:38,453 --> 00:04:39,933 and we were expecting to have. 94 00:04:39,957 --> 00:04:41,349 But regardless of this, 95 00:04:41,373 --> 00:04:45,456 the fact that we have this commitment from the government today 96 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,137 shows that there's a resolution to continue forward. 97 00:04:48,161 --> 00:04:54,373 But really, the economic model of Chile was brought into question, 98 00:04:54,397 --> 00:04:59,198 because the environmental issues, for example, are quite widespread, 99 00:04:59,222 --> 00:05:02,932 and many times you have large coal-fired power plants 100 00:05:02,956 --> 00:05:05,670 being situated where people live 101 00:05:05,694 --> 00:05:07,576 and with higher mortality rates. 102 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,667 Somebody who lives where a power plant is installed 103 00:05:10,691 --> 00:05:13,872 has twice the rate of death 104 00:05:13,896 --> 00:05:16,048 in comparison to other people in Chile. 105 00:05:16,072 --> 00:05:21,637 So the model of having many people be impacted for the benefit of few 106 00:05:21,661 --> 00:05:25,218 is something that caused and triggered the social unrest. 107 00:05:25,242 --> 00:05:27,689 And it goes into the economic model itself 108 00:05:27,713 --> 00:05:31,250 of extracting, polluting, impacting communities 109 00:05:31,274 --> 00:05:34,268 that may not see the benefits of these economic activities. 110 00:05:34,292 --> 00:05:35,667 So while we've done a lot -- 111 00:05:35,691 --> 00:05:41,275 we've come a long way, for example, in securing a very emblematic agreement 112 00:05:41,299 --> 00:05:43,776 to phase out coal-fired power plants -- 113 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,182 many people feel that this wasn't done fast enough 114 00:05:46,206 --> 00:05:48,722 and want this action to be brought faster. 115 00:05:49,952 --> 00:05:54,922 WPR: And it sounds like having people be the voice and the engine 116 00:05:54,946 --> 00:05:56,274 behind making that happen 117 00:05:56,298 --> 00:05:59,445 has really been part of this historical thread 118 00:05:59,469 --> 00:06:01,785 with climate action in Chile 119 00:06:01,809 --> 00:06:05,514 and seems like it would really lead things moving into the future. 120 00:06:07,285 --> 00:06:11,358 MM: No, definitely, and we will continue. Yes, go ahead. Sorry. 121 00:06:11,382 --> 00:06:15,007 WPR: Go ahead. Please go ahead. We have a little bit of a delay. 122 00:06:15,031 --> 00:06:20,096 MM: Going forward, we're going to be ... Starting out, we are doing well, 123 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,717 but I think we need to double down on our commitments. 124 00:06:22,741 --> 00:06:24,780 So even though we have ministries involved, 125 00:06:24,804 --> 00:06:27,115 we have civil society involved, 126 00:06:27,139 --> 00:06:30,197 we need to bring in the mainstream industry. 127 00:06:30,221 --> 00:06:33,591 I think, for example, the mining sector has a great opportunity 128 00:06:33,615 --> 00:06:36,372 to be the solution for the environmental issues, 129 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:39,693 because we provide the copper, the cobalt, the lithium 130 00:06:39,717 --> 00:06:43,556 that are required for solar PV panels, for battery storage. 131 00:06:43,580 --> 00:06:45,556 But we need to do this in a clean manner. 132 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:48,295 I think that's the biggest challenge we're going to have 133 00:06:48,319 --> 00:06:49,814 in the next 20 years ahead. 134 00:06:51,207 --> 00:06:53,466 WPR: And sort of pivoting to the pandemic 135 00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:55,820 and to thinking about what's going on right now, 136 00:06:55,844 --> 00:06:59,174 the entire world has obviously been devastated by this crisis. 137 00:06:59,198 --> 00:07:03,694 What have been some of the unique challenges that Chile has faced 138 00:07:03,718 --> 00:07:05,120 during this pandemic? 139 00:07:06,303 --> 00:07:08,003 MM: Well, definitely, as anybody, 140 00:07:08,027 --> 00:07:10,887 we are always struggling within 141 00:07:10,911 --> 00:07:15,269 taking actions today to prevent a deeper impact in the future. 142 00:07:15,293 --> 00:07:17,871 And we started off pretty well. 143 00:07:17,895 --> 00:07:19,415 We shut off schools. 144 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:23,689 We shut off different cities and had a quarantine. 145 00:07:23,713 --> 00:07:27,555 But we gave the wrong signals to people 146 00:07:27,579 --> 00:07:29,552 and we didn't have a consistent effort, 147 00:07:29,576 --> 00:07:32,906 and this has brought us to have the highest infection rates per capita 148 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:34,500 in the world these days. 149 00:07:34,524 --> 00:07:38,009 So this goes to show that -- the same parallels with climate change. 150 00:07:38,033 --> 00:07:41,261 We need to take action now to prevent deeper impact later. 151 00:07:41,285 --> 00:07:43,928 And I think we need to take the lesson of this 152 00:07:43,952 --> 00:07:46,714 to continue with an effort, 153 00:07:46,738 --> 00:07:50,230 because one thing is to announce an ambitious NDC. 154 00:07:50,254 --> 00:07:53,752 Another thing is to invest and do the regulations that you require 155 00:07:53,776 --> 00:07:55,125 to turn this into reality. 156 00:07:55,149 --> 00:07:57,362 But there are some things that are interesting. 157 00:07:57,386 --> 00:07:58,647 The pollution in Santiago, 158 00:07:58,671 --> 00:08:02,141 which is one of the most polluted capitals historically in Latin America, 159 00:08:02,165 --> 00:08:03,423 has dropped substantially. 160 00:08:03,447 --> 00:08:06,349 The car-related emissions are down almost 80 to 90 percent, 161 00:08:06,373 --> 00:08:08,195 which is pretty substantive. 162 00:08:08,219 --> 00:08:11,823 And we look at the example of what's going on. 163 00:08:11,847 --> 00:08:13,788 Harvard University showed a study 164 00:08:13,812 --> 00:08:17,290 in which they showed higher mortality rates for more polluted cities. 165 00:08:17,314 --> 00:08:19,005 And this is also the case in Chile. 166 00:08:19,029 --> 00:08:23,896 For every microgram of pollution, PM2.5, there is an increase of the fatality rate 167 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,075 of nine percent. 168 00:08:25,099 --> 00:08:28,654 But the thing is, we could also look back at what we've achieved up to now. 169 00:08:28,678 --> 00:08:30,725 Had we not taken measures to clean the air, 170 00:08:30,749 --> 00:08:34,047 as we've done in Chile these last 20 years, 171 00:08:34,071 --> 00:08:37,768 we would be talking about five times more people would have died from COVID. 172 00:08:37,792 --> 00:08:42,171 We have around 800 people that have died due to COVID directly, 173 00:08:42,195 --> 00:08:46,495 but this would have been much higher had we not taken action. 174 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:48,861 And in fact, due to the lower pollution, 175 00:08:48,885 --> 00:08:52,976 if we estimate and predict this to the rest of the year, 176 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,222 we will have saved as many lives reducing the pollution 177 00:08:56,246 --> 00:08:57,949 as we have lost in COVID, 178 00:08:57,973 --> 00:09:00,874 showing that there's a pandemic that we also need to address, 179 00:09:00,898 --> 00:09:05,295 which is the crisis on air pollution that suffocates many cities in the world. 180 00:09:06,849 --> 00:09:10,031 WPR: And it seems like that's probably something that we're seeing 181 00:09:10,055 --> 00:09:11,597 in other areas around the world. 182 00:09:11,621 --> 00:09:15,325 As you're suggesting, air pollution is a problem everywhere. 183 00:09:15,349 --> 00:09:17,652 And I'm curious also 184 00:09:17,676 --> 00:09:22,442 how these challenges that you've mentioned, and maybe others, 185 00:09:22,466 --> 00:09:24,928 might hinder or help 186 00:09:24,952 --> 00:09:27,325 some of this progress that you're hoping to make 187 00:09:27,349 --> 00:09:28,926 towards climate action. 188 00:09:28,950 --> 00:09:31,647 How do you see this factoring in to some of the decisions 189 00:09:31,671 --> 00:09:34,681 that might be made going forward in Chile and beyond? 190 00:09:35,972 --> 00:09:39,212 MM: OK, so we have a higher fatality rate and more polluted cities, 191 00:09:39,236 --> 00:09:41,716 and we have a climate action to carry out. 192 00:09:41,740 --> 00:09:43,748 This is going to be a decisive decade, 193 00:09:43,772 --> 00:09:48,467 in which we need to lay the groundwork for our lower-emissions strategies. 194 00:09:48,491 --> 00:09:53,302 So whatever we do today cannot lock us in to an incompatible climate future. 195 00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:57,249 We need to lay the groundwork for this low-emissions transition. 196 00:09:57,273 --> 00:10:00,402 So therefore, our green recovery efforts need to be done, 197 00:10:00,426 --> 00:10:03,006 as Kristalina [Georgieva] spoke last week, 198 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:07,202 has to be related to a green recovery that creates jobs immediately, 199 00:10:07,226 --> 00:10:11,023 that addresses the poverty issues that we have on energy 200 00:10:11,047 --> 00:10:12,356 today in southern Chile, 201 00:10:12,380 --> 00:10:15,298 and we need to use this for expanding renewable energy 202 00:10:15,322 --> 00:10:18,827 and expanding the successful efforts that we've done on electromobility. 203 00:10:18,851 --> 00:10:23,774 Today, we have the largest fleet of electric buses outside of China, 204 00:10:23,798 --> 00:10:26,764 but we could actually make this go even bigger, 205 00:10:26,788 --> 00:10:31,668 because we've seen that the reductions in cost have been almost 70 percent 206 00:10:31,692 --> 00:10:33,437 in comparison to diesel buses. 207 00:10:33,461 --> 00:10:35,974 So we should use this opportunity to expand. 208 00:10:35,998 --> 00:10:38,625 And multiple stakeholders are working. 209 00:10:38,649 --> 00:10:41,568 We're working together to call on the government 210 00:10:41,592 --> 00:10:43,054 to do a green recovery, 211 00:10:43,078 --> 00:10:45,637 to use the green bonds that we've already issued 212 00:10:45,661 --> 00:10:50,467 and under which we've gotten really low rates for interest rates, 213 00:10:50,491 --> 00:10:53,737 to do and fund cleaning the air, 214 00:10:53,761 --> 00:10:55,118 cleaning the transportation 215 00:10:55,142 --> 00:10:58,975 and laying the groundwork for a cleaner tomorrow in the mining sector, 216 00:10:58,999 --> 00:11:01,876 which is our biggest challenge going forward. 217 00:11:02,669 --> 00:11:06,378 WPR: And then as far as the way that you think about 218 00:11:06,402 --> 00:11:08,922 and conceptualize climate action, 219 00:11:08,946 --> 00:11:12,351 have you personally had any changes to your thinking, 220 00:11:12,375 --> 00:11:15,987 just as a result of what you're seeing through this pandemic? 221 00:11:17,348 --> 00:11:19,733 MM: Yeah, I think we start looking around, 222 00:11:19,757 --> 00:11:25,167 everybody had to struggle and find that we could do much more with less, 223 00:11:25,191 --> 00:11:27,894 and keeping a full economy 224 00:11:27,918 --> 00:11:31,099 that requires you to buy an extra t-shirt that you don't need, 225 00:11:31,123 --> 00:11:35,164 the fact that we're using three times more clothes 226 00:11:35,188 --> 00:11:36,955 than we were maybe 20 years ago 227 00:11:36,979 --> 00:11:40,595 shows that we are blowing up an economy that requires us 228 00:11:40,619 --> 00:11:42,814 to destroy the environment, in a way, 229 00:11:42,838 --> 00:11:45,609 to continue forward. 230 00:11:45,633 --> 00:11:48,793 And the food system is going to be probably our biggest challenge, 231 00:11:48,817 --> 00:11:53,500 and even though I've been working with electric buses and electromobility 232 00:11:53,524 --> 00:11:57,228 and just the more conventional mitigation, 233 00:11:57,252 --> 00:11:59,199 I think our biggest cultural challenge 234 00:11:59,223 --> 00:12:02,647 will be to talk about how our food decisions 235 00:12:02,671 --> 00:12:08,138 impact the way that we will have a future. 236 00:12:08,162 --> 00:12:10,455 "Nature" just put out a report 237 00:12:10,479 --> 00:12:14,237 that showed something that when we were in the government, we had talked about. 238 00:12:14,261 --> 00:12:16,018 When Chile was good in soccer, 239 00:12:16,042 --> 00:12:22,148 we started going deeper into the wintertime contests, 240 00:12:22,172 --> 00:12:23,599 and we started winning games. 241 00:12:23,623 --> 00:12:26,714 But to win those games, we started doing a lot of barbecues, 242 00:12:26,738 --> 00:12:29,097 and the paper that came out showed something that, 243 00:12:29,121 --> 00:12:30,702 when we explained this to people, 244 00:12:30,726 --> 00:12:33,894 that you guys are messing up the air with barbecues, 245 00:12:33,918 --> 00:12:35,324 people thought we were crazy. 246 00:12:35,348 --> 00:12:40,683 Well, the "Nature" report now shows that we actually fouled the air 247 00:12:40,707 --> 00:12:42,921 and destroyed the air, annihilated the air, 248 00:12:42,945 --> 00:12:45,134 because we wanted to celebrate the soccer. 249 00:12:45,158 --> 00:12:48,583 And we set this up to people, and people thought we were crazy. 250 00:12:48,607 --> 00:12:52,284 Now people acknowledge the fact that the basic things that you could do, 251 00:12:52,308 --> 00:12:54,469 such as the way that you choose how to cook, 252 00:12:54,493 --> 00:12:56,285 could actually impact your air. 253 00:12:56,309 --> 00:13:00,847 So I think going forward these cultural challenges that we need to do, 254 00:13:00,871 --> 00:13:02,367 we need to tackle them head-on. 255 00:13:02,391 --> 00:13:04,153 We should need to show the evidence. 256 00:13:04,177 --> 00:13:06,667 Otherwise, we're just going to be ignoring problems 257 00:13:06,691 --> 00:13:08,747 and letting them perpetuate for the future. 258 00:13:10,967 --> 00:13:14,382 WPR: And, you know, for nations who have not really prioritized climate 259 00:13:14,406 --> 00:13:16,588 in the same way that Chile has, 260 00:13:16,612 --> 00:13:19,506 are there lessons that you think can be learned 261 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:22,433 from some of the choices that Chile has made in recent years 262 00:13:22,457 --> 00:13:24,123 that other nations can apply, 263 00:13:24,147 --> 00:13:28,238 and how could folks in other countries implement some of these strategies 264 00:13:28,262 --> 00:13:30,257 that you implemented in Chile? 265 00:13:31,523 --> 00:13:33,975 MM: So, many people in the US and across the world 266 00:13:33,999 --> 00:13:35,534 know about the Chilean sea bass. 267 00:13:35,558 --> 00:13:39,772 The Chilean sea bass was overfished and almost collapsed. 268 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:43,479 One of the things that we did under the support from "National Geographic" 269 00:13:43,503 --> 00:13:45,600 and with the leadership of President Bachelet 270 00:13:45,624 --> 00:13:47,336 was to expand marine protection, 271 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,632 from four percent of our oceans to 43 percent within one government, 272 00:13:50,656 --> 00:13:52,415 which is the largest leap. 273 00:13:52,439 --> 00:13:56,923 There's only comparison to the US during Obama in terms of protection. 274 00:13:56,947 --> 00:14:01,413 And this is because we want this population also to recover. 275 00:14:01,437 --> 00:14:06,935 You know, when you let the park stop fishing, 276 00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:09,229 the overflow from the fishing 277 00:14:09,253 --> 00:14:12,061 will actually increase the biomass sixfold. 278 00:14:12,085 --> 00:14:15,153 So I think one of the efforts that we need to do 279 00:14:15,177 --> 00:14:17,708 as we talk about the biodiversity convention 280 00:14:17,732 --> 00:14:19,527 that's going to happen this next year 281 00:14:19,551 --> 00:14:22,606 is that we need to change our relationship to the environment. 282 00:14:22,630 --> 00:14:25,596 We need to protect and conserve our ecosystems, 283 00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:28,917 so they provide the services that they do today. 284 00:14:28,941 --> 00:14:32,679 Today, 96 percent of all mammals, land mammals, 285 00:14:32,703 --> 00:14:35,020 are humans or stuff humans eat. 286 00:14:35,044 --> 00:14:38,322 Only four percent of land mammals are wild. 287 00:14:38,346 --> 00:14:40,771 When I heard that data, from "National Geographic," 288 00:14:40,795 --> 00:14:41,960 for the first time, 289 00:14:41,984 --> 00:14:43,140 I couldn't believe it. 290 00:14:43,164 --> 00:14:45,556 We've changed our relationship with the planet, 291 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:48,674 and we're suffering these decisions 292 00:14:48,698 --> 00:14:51,805 because we see zoonotic diseases -- not just coronavirus -- 293 00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:53,936 spread time after time. 294 00:14:56,398 --> 00:15:00,175 WPR: And we have Bruno here -- hi, Bruno -- with a question from the community. 295 00:15:00,199 --> 00:15:02,466 Bruno Giussani: Hi. Absolutely. Hello, Marcelo. 296 00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:05,015 This is a question from Melissa Mahoney. 297 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:09,092 She asks if you can expand on what economic benefits 298 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:11,996 of net-zero emissions are. 299 00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:15,619 And especially, could those benefits be the same for Chile 300 00:15:15,643 --> 00:15:17,390 and for other countries? 301 00:15:19,363 --> 00:15:20,514 MM: Good. 302 00:15:20,538 --> 00:15:22,678 For example, when I worked in the World Bank, 303 00:15:22,702 --> 00:15:25,370 we supported Chile to look into the macroeconomic impacts 304 00:15:25,394 --> 00:15:27,006 of the net-zero target. 305 00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:31,679 And it was shown that Chile will grow 4.4 percent more. 306 00:15:31,703 --> 00:15:34,574 So we turned the risk of climate change, 307 00:15:34,598 --> 00:15:37,466 and we turned it into an opportunity of expanded growth. 308 00:15:37,490 --> 00:15:40,669 This manifests in lower transportation costs, 309 00:15:40,693 --> 00:15:42,553 lower energy costs, 310 00:15:42,577 --> 00:15:45,299 and this makes the economy more competitive. 311 00:15:45,323 --> 00:15:48,916 The costs of reaching the net-zero target 312 00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:54,869 are much lower than the benefits that we will have to reap. 313 00:15:54,893 --> 00:15:57,472 And we're not even talking about cleaner air benefits, 314 00:15:57,496 --> 00:15:59,577 we're talking about direct economic benefits 315 00:15:59,601 --> 00:16:01,147 of having increased investments, 316 00:16:01,171 --> 00:16:04,402 which is something that every country will require in these years 317 00:16:04,426 --> 00:16:06,277 to recover from the COVID crisis, 318 00:16:06,301 --> 00:16:07,509 and lower energy costs. 319 00:16:07,533 --> 00:16:08,833 So that's how it manifests, 320 00:16:08,857 --> 00:16:10,890 and this is a consensus today 321 00:16:10,914 --> 00:16:13,006 that we need to have more renewable energy 322 00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:16,776 because this is the way that we've had cleaner air and lower energy costs. 323 00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:25,522 BG: There is another question from someone in the audience, asking, 324 00:16:25,546 --> 00:16:30,092 "Countries across Latin America have very different attitudes on climate. 325 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:31,461 Can you comment on that?" 326 00:16:32,672 --> 00:16:36,103 MM: So Pew Research Center has been putting out reports 327 00:16:36,127 --> 00:16:40,463 regarding what is the main external threat that you have. 328 00:16:40,487 --> 00:16:42,683 And in Europe, in the US, 329 00:16:42,707 --> 00:16:45,483 the biggest threat was either China or ISIS 330 00:16:45,507 --> 00:16:47,726 or some external bellicose threat. 331 00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:51,259 In Latin America and Africa, it's climate change, number one, 332 00:16:51,283 --> 00:16:54,543 and Chile is one of the highest, with 86 percent of Chileans 333 00:16:54,567 --> 00:16:58,174 saying that climate change is the greatest external threat. 334 00:16:58,198 --> 00:17:02,451 And this is also very high across the region. 335 00:17:02,475 --> 00:17:06,822 We could have populist governments coming in, changing their priorities, 336 00:17:06,846 --> 00:17:08,883 but the reality is, people are concerned, 337 00:17:08,907 --> 00:17:11,606 because they see the threat of climate change every day, 338 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:14,732 and regardless of whether the national government believes in it, 339 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:15,915 climate change is real 340 00:17:15,939 --> 00:17:18,837 and is causing impacts and causing poverty in the region. 341 00:17:20,117 --> 00:17:22,234 BG: Thank you, Marcelo. Back to you, Whitney. 342 00:17:22,666 --> 00:17:24,286 WPR: Thank you. Thank you, Bruno. 343 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:28,075 And Marcelo, just one last question before we actually say goodbye, 344 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:31,732 which is just, knowing that you were involved in the negotiations 345 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:32,978 for the Paris Agreement, 346 00:17:33,002 --> 00:17:35,698 are there things that you take from that experience 347 00:17:35,722 --> 00:17:37,529 that you can apply to this moment 348 00:17:37,553 --> 00:17:40,893 as we think about emerging from this crisis 349 00:17:40,917 --> 00:17:43,338 and coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic? 350 00:17:44,726 --> 00:17:45,902 MM: Yes, 351 00:17:45,926 --> 00:17:49,517 that there will always be a populist that will be opposing climate action, 352 00:17:49,541 --> 00:17:52,899 and the way to get at this is to make the economic case, 353 00:17:52,923 --> 00:17:54,544 so regardless of what happens, 354 00:17:54,568 --> 00:17:58,104 there will be an economic case for spending on renewable energy. 355 00:17:58,128 --> 00:18:02,039 The US grew its renewable energy investments around 40 percent last year. 356 00:18:02,063 --> 00:18:04,060 In Brazil, it grew almost 10 percent. 357 00:18:04,084 --> 00:18:07,004 And so therefore, if we are able to align the economic goals 358 00:18:07,028 --> 00:18:08,212 with climate goals, 359 00:18:08,236 --> 00:18:10,749 you will be able to make this go forward. 360 00:18:10,773 --> 00:18:14,885 There's the Network for Greening the Financial System 361 00:18:14,909 --> 00:18:16,910 that puts together central bankers. 362 00:18:16,934 --> 00:18:20,814 The World Bank launched a coalition of finance ministers for climate action. 363 00:18:20,838 --> 00:18:22,932 These are great efforts 364 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:27,403 that will allow us to have the financial system support climate action 365 00:18:27,427 --> 00:18:29,510 because there's an economic benefit, 366 00:18:29,534 --> 00:18:33,121 because it's important for you, for your fiduciary responsibilities, 367 00:18:33,145 --> 00:18:35,270 to disclose the risks you have, 368 00:18:35,294 --> 00:18:37,445 both transitionally and physically. 369 00:18:37,469 --> 00:18:38,926 And if we are able to do this, 370 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:41,189 regardless of what negotiations happen, 371 00:18:41,213 --> 00:18:45,944 because there will always be problems with the consensus, 372 00:18:45,968 --> 00:18:48,635 you will continue to have a resilient approach 373 00:18:48,659 --> 00:18:50,496 because climate action will continue 374 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,461 because you can have the economic system support this. 375 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:55,943 WPR: That's really great. 376 00:18:55,967 --> 00:18:58,122 Thank you so much, Marcelo, for being with us 377 00:18:58,146 --> 00:19:00,208 to share your perspective and your insight. 378 00:19:00,232 --> 00:19:03,913 It's really great to sort of zoom in on some of the things happening in Chile 379 00:19:03,937 --> 00:19:06,770 and how that might apply to all of us all over the world. 380 00:19:06,794 --> 00:19:08,809 Thank you for joining us today. 381 00:19:08,833 --> 00:19:09,258 MM: Thanks.