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Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
Marcelo Mena is an environmentalist,

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a scholar,

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and he is the former
Minister of Environment for Chile.

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Welcome, Marcelo.

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Marcelo Mena: How are you doing, Whitney.
Thanks for the invitation.

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WPR: Perfect. Great.

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Of course, thank you so much
for being with us here today.

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And you know, before we dive
into the future of climate action

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in Chile and beyond,

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I think it would be great for us
to talk about the present,

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and why Chile really represents
a country that is worth thinking about

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when we talk about climate.

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You know, recently there have been
lots of commendable actions

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taken by your country
when we think about climate.

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Chile recently committed
to net zero emissions by 2050,

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the first in the Americas to do this,

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and that's especially notable
when you think about

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how much of Chile's economy
really depends on carbon emissions:

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mining, agriculture, and spaces like that.

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So could you start a little bit
by just talking about

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how would this even be possible
to get to net zero emissions in 30 years,

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and what would that mean for Chile?

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MM: It was a very surreal image

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when we saw Minister Schmidt,

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the COP25 president,

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Patricia Espinosa,
the UN head on climate change,

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with masks delivering this new NDC.

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The important thing here is things
that are hard to build require consensus,

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but therefore to get rid
of that commitment,

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you need to have another consensus.

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This hasn't happened,

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so I think is, the reason why Chile
has a sort of vision towards mitigation

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that's ambitious

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is that we see that there's
a big economic benefit.

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We have seen, we've witnessed,

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what the renewable energy sector
has been able to do for investment,

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for lowering energy costs,

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and so therefore to reach this goal

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we will inevitably expand
to 100 percent renewable,

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but we'll also transform our industry,
which is heavy on fossil fuels,

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towards low emissions,

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with the hydrogen economy kicking in,

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with a recently launched committee
that I formed, that Minister Jobet,

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the Minister of Energy, set up.

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And also energy efficiency
and a lot of capture, carbon capture.

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We are endowed with
a lot of natural capital.

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Taking care of that natural capital
and expanding plantations

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will allow us to reach net zero by 2050.

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WPR: That's great.

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And now it seems like Chile
has such a huge focus, then,

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in thinking about renewable energy
and thinking about climate.

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But this wasn't always the case.

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Could you talk a little bit, I guess,

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about the history of how Chile
arrived at this moment?

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MM: Yeah, so in 2011, 2010,

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we had an energy discussion
with incumbents

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saying the only way we could solve
our energy problems

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will be through large coal
and large hydro in Patagonia.

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And that really polarized the discussion.

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We got together as a community
after large protests

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that triggered a lot of social movements,

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and we started discussing

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how we should be able
to do our energy going forward.

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The population, public unrest,
set up almost 6,000 megawatts

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of coal fired power plants
to never be built.

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And when the government,
Michelle Bachelet's government came in,

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we pulled the plug on HidroAysén project,

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which is a big hydro project
in the Patagonia.

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And both of these conditions
enabled an opportunity

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for renewable energy to be set in.

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We put in carbon taxes,

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we put in environmental regulations,

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and we set up an energy strategy
that we did building on discussing

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and looking at the data

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in which we thought that
the 70 percent renewable energy by 2050

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was going to be a target
that we could agree on.

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This target has been long surpassed.

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Now we're thinking of reaching
that same goal by 2030.

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WPR: And what you were saying
about social protests,

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that's something that a lot of people
maybe have been following

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news of what's going in Chile
are familiar with recent social protests,

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and I think I'm curious about
how you see that factoring in

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to climate action moving forward.

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How might these social protests

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play a role in what
climate action you see?

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And, really, how is it possible for Chile
to be a leader in climate action

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while also struggling
with some of these social issues?

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MM: Well, the social issues,

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which are very profound
and important to address,

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caused, for example, COP25

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to not be able to be held in Santiago,
and to go to Madrid.

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And this also shifted a whole bunch
of the discussions and announcements

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that were done

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and we were expecting to have.

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But regardless of this,

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the fact that we have this commitment
from the government today

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shows that there's a resolution
to continue forward.

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But really the model,

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the economic model of Chile,

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was brought into question,

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because the environmental issues,
for example, are quite widespread,

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and many times you have
large coal-fired power plants

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being situated where people live

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and with higher mortality rates.

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Somebody who lives
where a power plant is installed

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has twice the rate of death

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in comparison to other people in Chile.

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So the model of having many people
be impacted for the benefit of few

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is something that caused
and triggered the social unrest.

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And it goes into the economic model itself

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of extracting, colluding,
impacting communities

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that may not see the benefits
of these economic activities.

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So while we've done a lot,
we've come a long way,

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for example in securing

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a very emblematic agreement
to phase out coal-fired power plants,

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many people that this
wasn't done fast enough

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and want this action to be brought faster.

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WPR: And it sounds like having people
be the voice and the engine

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behind making that happen

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has really been part
of this historical thread

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with climate action in Chile

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and seems like it would really
lead things moving into the future.

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MM: No, definitely -- yes.
Go ahead. Sorry.

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WPR: Go ahead. Please go ahead.

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We have a little bit of a delay.

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MM: Starting out, we are doing well,

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but I think we need
to double down our commitments.

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So even though
we have ministries involved,

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we have civil society involved,

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we need to bring in
the mainstream industry.

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I think, for example, the mining sector
has a great opportunity

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to be the solution
for the environmental issues,

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because we provide the copper,
the cobalt, the lithium

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that are required for solar PV panels,
for battery storage.

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But we need to do this in a clean manner.

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I think that's the biggest challenge
we're going to have

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in the next 20 years ahead.

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WPR: And sort of pivoting to the pandemic

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and to thinking about what's going,

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right now the entire world has obviously
been devastated by this crisis.

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What have been some of the unique
challenges that Chile has faced

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during this pandemic?

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MM: Well, definitely, as anybody,

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we are always struggling within

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taking actions today to prevent
a deeper impact in the future.

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And we started off pretty well.

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We shut off schools.

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We shut off different cities
and had a quarantine.

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But we gave the wrong signals to people

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and we didn't have a consistent effort,

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and this has brought us to have
the highest infection rates per capita

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in the world these days.

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So this goes to show that,
the same parallels with climate change.

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We need to take action now
to prevent deeper impact later.

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And I think we need
to take the lesson of this

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to continue with an effort,

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because one thing is to announce
an ambitious NDC.

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Another thing is to invest and do
the regulations that you require

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to turn this into reality.

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But there are some things
that are interesting.

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The pollution in Santiago,

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which is one of the most polluted capitals
historically in Latin America,

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has dropped substantially.

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The car-related emissions
are down almost 80 to 90 percent,

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which is pretty substantive.

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And we look at the example
of what's going on.

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Harvard University showed a study
in which they showed

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higher mortality rates
for more polluted cities.

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And this is also the case in Chile.

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For every microgram of pollution, PM2.5,
there is an increase of the fatality rate

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of nine percent.

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But the thing is, we could also look back
at what we've achieved up to now.

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Had we not taken
measures to clean the air,

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as we've done in Chile
these last 20 years,

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we would be talking about five times
more people would have died from COVID.

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We have around 800 people
that have died due to COVID directly,

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but this would have been much higher
had we not taken action.

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And in fact, due to the lower pollution,

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if we estimate and predict this
to the rest of the year,

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we will have saved as many lives
reducing the pollution

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as we have lost in COVID,

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showing that there's a pandemic
that we also need to address,

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which is the crisis on air pollution
that suffocates many cities in the world.

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WPR: And it seems like that's probably
something that we're seeing

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in other areas around the world.

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As you're suggesting,
air pollution is a problem everywhere.

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And I'm curious also

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how these challenges
that you've mentioned, and maybe others,

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might hinder or help

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some of this progress
that you're hoping to make

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towards climate action.

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How do you see this factoring in
to some of the decisions

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that might be made going forward
in Chile and beyond?

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MM: OK, so we have a higher fatality rate
and more polluted cities,

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and we have a climate action to carry out.

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This is going to be a decisive decade,

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in which we need to lay the groundwork
for our lower emissions strategies.

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So whatever we do today cannot lock us
into an incompatible climate future.

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We need to lay the groundwork
for this low emissions transition.

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So therefore, our green
recovery efforts need to be done,

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as ?? spoke last week,

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has to be related to a green recovery
that creates jobs immediately,

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that addresses the poverty issues
that we have on energy

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today in southern Chile,

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and we need to use this
for expanding renewable energy

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and expanding the successful efforts
that we've done on electromobility.

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Today, we have the largest fleet
of electric buses outside of China,

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but we could actually
make this go even bigger,

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because we've seen

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that the reductions in cost
have been almost 70 percent

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in comparison to diesel buses,

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so to use this opportunity to expand.

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And multiple stakeholders are working.

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We're working together
to call on the government

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to do a green recovery,

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to use the green bonds
that we've already issued

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and under which we've gotten
really low rates for interest rates,

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to do and fund cleaning the air,

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cleaning the transportation,

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and laying the groundwork for
a cleaner tomorrow in the mining sector,

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which is our biggest
challenge going forward.

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WPR: And then as far as the way
that you think about

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and conceptualize climate action,

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have you personally
had any changes to your thinking,

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just as a result of what
you're seeing through this pandemic?

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MM: Yeah, I think we start looking around.

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Everybody had to struggle and find
that we could do much more with less,

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and keeping a full economy

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that requires you to buy
an extra t-shirt that you don't need,

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the fact that we're using
three times more clothes

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than we were maybe 20 years ago,

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shows that we are blowing up
an economy that requires us

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to destroy the environment, in a way,

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to continue forward.

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And the food system is going to be
probably our biggest challenge,

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and even though I've been working
with electric buses and electromobility

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and just the more conventional mitigation,

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I think our biggest cultural challenge

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will be to talk about
how our food decisions

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impact the way that we will have a future.

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"Nature" just out a report that showed
when we were in the government,

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what we talked about.

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When Chile was good in soccer,

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we started going deeper
into the wintertime contests,

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and we started winning games,

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but to win those games,
we started doing a lot of barbecues,

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and the paper that came out
showed something that,

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when we explained this to people,

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that you guys are messing up
the air with barbecues,

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people thought we were crazy.

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Well, "Nature" now showed,
the "Nature" report shows

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that we actually fouled the air
and destroyed the air

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and annihilated the air
because we wanted to celebrate the soccer.

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And we set this up to people,
and people thought we were crazy.

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Now, people acknowledge the fact
that the basic thing that you could do,

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such as the way that
you choose how to cook,

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could actually impact your air.

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So I think going forward these
cultural challenges that we need to do,

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we need to tackle them head-on.

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We need to show the evidence.

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Otherwise, we're just going
to be ignoring problems

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and letting them
perpetuate for the future.

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WPR: And, you know, for nations
who have not really prioritized climate

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in the same way that Chile has,

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are there lessons that
you think can be learned

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from some of the choices
that Chile has made in recent years

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that other nations can apply,

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and how could folks in other countries
implement some of these strategies

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that you implemented in Chile?

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MM: So many people in the US
and across the world

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know about the Chilean sea bass.

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The Chilean sea bass was overfished,
and almost collapsed.

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One of the things that we did under
the support from "National Geographic"

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and with the leadership
of President Bachelet

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was to expand marine protection,

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from four percent our own oceans
to 43 percent within one government,

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which is the largest.

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There's only comparison to the US
during Obama in terms of protection.

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This is because we want
this population also to recover.

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You know, when you
let the park, stop fishing,

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the overflow from the fishing

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will actually increase
the biomass sixfold.

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So I think one of the efforts
that we need to do

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as we talk about
the biodiversity convention

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that's going to happen this next year

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is that we need to change
our relationship to the environment.

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We need to protect
and conserve our ecosystems,

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so they provide the services
that they do today.

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Today, 96 percent of all mammals,

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land mammals, are humans
or stuff humans eat.

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Only four percent
of land mammals are wild.

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When I heard that data,
from "National Geographic",

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for the first time, I couldn't believe it.

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We've changed our relationship
with the planet,

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and we're suffering these decisions

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because we see zoonotic diseases,

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not just coronavirus,
spread time after time.

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WPR: And we have Bruno here --

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hi, Bruno -- with a question
from the community.

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Bruno Giussani: Hi.
Absolutely. Hello, Marcelo.

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This is a question from Melissa Mahoney.

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She asks if you "can expand on
what economic benefits

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of net zero emissions are.

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And especially, could those benefits
be the same for Chile

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and for other countries?"

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MM: Good.

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For example, when I worked
in the World Bank,

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we supported Chile to look into
the macroeconomic impacts

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of the net zero target,

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and it was shown that Chile
will grow 4.4 percent more.

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So we turned the risk of climate change

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and we turned it into an opportunity
of expanded growth.

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This manifests in lower
transportation costs,

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lower energy costs,

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and this makes the economy
more competitive.

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The costs of reaching the net zero target

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are much lower than the benefits
that we will have to reap.

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And we're not even talking
about cleaner air benefits,

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we're talking about
direct economic benefits

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of having increased investments,

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which is something that every country
will require in these years

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to recover from the COVID crisis,

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and lower energy costs.

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So that's how it manifests,

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and this is a consensus today

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that we need to have more renewable energy

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because this is the way that we've had
cleaner air and lower energy costs.

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BG: There is another question
from someone in the audience

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asking,

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"Countries across Latin America
have very different attitudes on climate.

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Can you comment on that?"

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MM: So Pew Research Center
has been putting out reports

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regarding what is the main
external threat that you have.

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And in Europe, in the US,

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the biggest threat
was either China or ISIS

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or some external ?? threat.

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In Latin America and Africa,
it's climate change, number one,

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and Chile is one of the highest,
with 86 percent of Chileans

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saying that climate change
is the greatest external threat.

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So this is also very high
across the region.

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We could have populist governments
coming in, changing their priorities,

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but the reality is people are concerned,

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because they see the threat
of climate change every day,

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and regardless of whether
the national government believes in it,

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climate change is real

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and is causing impacts
and causing poverty in the region.

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BG: Thank you, Marcelo.
Back to you, Whitney.

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WPR: That's great.
Thank you. Thank you Bruno.

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And Marcelo, just one last question
before we actually say goodbye,

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which is just, knowing that you
were involved in the negotiations

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for the Paris Agreement,

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are there things that you take
from that experience

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that you can apply to this moment

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as we think about emerging
from this crisis

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and coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic.

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MM: Yes,

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that there will always be a populist
that will be opposing climate action,

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and the way to get at this is
is to make the economic case,

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so regardless of what happens,

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there will be an economic case
for spending on renewable energy.

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The US grew its renewable energy
investments around 40 percent last year.

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In Brazil, it grew almost 10 percent.

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And so therefore, if we are able
to align the economic goals

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with climate goals,

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you will be able to make this go forward.

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There's the network of greening
the financial system

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that puts together central bankers.

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The World Bank launched a coalition
of finance ministers for climate action.

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These are great efforts

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that will allow us to have
the financial system

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support climate action

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because there's an economic benefit,

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because it's important for you,
for your fiduciary responsibilities,

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to disclose the risks you have,

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both transitionally and physically.

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And if we are able to do this,

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regardless of what negotiations happen,

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because there will always be
problems with the consensus,

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you will continue to have
a resilient approach

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because climate action will continue

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because you can have
the economic system support this.

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WPR: That's really great.

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Thank you so much, Marcelo,
for being with us

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to share your perspective
and your insight.

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It's really great to sort of zoom in
on some of the things happening in Chile

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and how that might apply
to all of us all over the world.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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MM: Thanks.