Now, we can start talking about your
family's story during the genocide.
My ancestors, my grandpa and grandma
in 1915, my mom's side was from Marash
and my dad's side was from Boursa.
My mother and father were born and raised
in Aleppo.
Like them, I was born in the
same city.
I went to school in that city. My entire
childhood was spent there.
I went to school in Aleppo and had a good
environment. I have also been
an Armenian language teacher.
I have left all my friends in Aleppo
and came to Yerevan.
Do you know how your grandparents came
to Turkey and to Syria?
It is not really clear how my family
from Marash came...
In 1915, they must have joined the other
Armenians that fled the country and went
to an orphanage in Aleppo.
In that orphanage, they introduced them
to my grandmother and grandfather.
And then, they got married.
On my dad's side, the same
thing happened. They were also raised
in an orphanage.
My grandparents met one another there
and got married.
Do you know what they did for work?
I do not know where they used to work
during that time.
On my dad's side, they owned some land
and agricultural properties.
On my mom's side, it is a bit harder
to know. My family goes back many
generations and it's hard to know
where they worked.
My grandpa was a mechanic.
What else should I say?
Do you know how hard it was to start
their life again in Aleppo after the war?
What difficulties did they face?
Yes, they did go through tough times
during the war.
Firstly, they have lived in metal
shacks. They are called metal shacks
for Armenians. In Arabic, they say
berakatl Armen.
Secondly, the Armenians missed having
a home and moved into their own houses.
Life started to improve and as soon as we
came to Aleppo or Syria in general...
we had some Armenian churches.
Next to the churches, we had Armenian
schools. In the beginning, we have had
year-around schools. The population were
all Turkish speakers.
Since it was mandatory, they spoke Turkish
for 500 years.
When they came to Aleppo, due to the
Armenian schools they attended, the
people became more and more Armenian.
They started teaching Armenian.
From generation to generation,
we feel more Armenian since we speak
Armenian and have Armenian schools.
We also have Armenian
at the secondary level.
In Aleppo, what do you do to remember
the 1915 genocide and April 24th?
On the morning of April 24th, we go to
the cemetery and gather around the chapel
to remember those that we lost by praying
and by lighting candles.
During that time and on some days,
lectures took place in the Armenian
community centers.
From generation to generation,
we continue to remember and to not forget
that we have a problem with keeping
our Armenianhood. It is not only about
April 24th. It is not about tears.
Armenians do get sad and emotional
about what happened to our people.
We have been reborn and are
still living. We are still here. They said
that they are going to kill every
Armenian and leave one. They are going to
put that person in a museum. They did not
succeed in doing that. Because of that,
April 24th is a time of sorrow
for us. At the same time, it is
a victory for the Armenian people.
We are still present. We are still here.
We still have demands and want restitution
from them. We are not sleeping.
We are awake.
From generation to generation, we teach
them Armenian heritage and spirit with
the help of our cultural organizations.
With that, we prepare the next
generation of Armenians.
That is great.
Tell me a bit about your childhood.
My childhood... I was really happy.
Where were you raised? Aleppo! Aleppo!
I was born in Aleppo. In which neighborhood?
Sulaymaniyah! I was born in Aleppo
and grew up there in the same house.
My house is still luckily there.
I had a good childhood and was very happy.
I always had a good life... always.
Which school did you attend?
I went to Lazar Najarian. I attended that
school. I graduated in 1984. In terms of
the different community centers, I do not
want to make a distinction between them.
All of the community centers do their work
in their own way and follow different
principles. The goal that they all share
is Armenians keeping their
Armenianhood in the Diaspora.
We used to go to the theater with my
family. We did not have the choice to
go to one and not the other.
May it be a theater performance or
a literary evening, we have attended most
of them. I have been part of the scouting
ranks for a few years (for a short time).
It was one of the most beautiful years
of my life.
Until when did you go to school?
I graduated with the 1984 class.
High school
After you said...
After that, I studied Armenian Studies .
In university? -Hamazkayin had opened
their own Armenian Studies department.
A very long time ago, I went to
the British Council.
What kind of work did you do?
I have been an Armenian language teacher.
And... when you were an Armenian teacher,
did you think that it was
your responsibility to teach them
the language and about their culture?
Yes, it is important to know about
their culture. To teach Armenians the
Armenian language is a big responsibility
in the Diaspora.
Our teaching is not limited to learning
how to read and write and studying grammar
and literature. It is also to teach them
Armenian values by introducing
the students to Armenian symbols in order to
make them feel a sense of belonging
to the Armenian culture.
If someone asks them
about who they are
they would say Armenian.
"What does it mean to be an Armenian?"
They should be able to say that
Armenians are the group of people that
lived during the times of Dikran Medz
a long time ago. We have been a prominent
nation from sea to sea. We have had some
well-known Armenians like Viktor Ambartsumian
and Aram Khachaturian.
We have had many famous personalities.
It would be hard to count them all.
We should remember the individuals that
fought for our people and be proud of all
the things they have done for us.
We have to tell the new generation
about this. So, they hear and know
what is being an Armenian and feel
a sense of belongingness.
Only speaking Armenian is not enough.
And which school?
I was at Zvartnots Primary School.
And... do you think that the students
are interested in this subject matter?
The teacher is the person that should
make them interested in it.
They say that learning about literature
can be boring, but it is not like that.
The teacher can get them interested in our
culture, because our culture is very
beautiful. You can make it more
interesting for the students by making
them relate to the subject.
I did all the work. I do not know how much
I succeeded in that since I have only
worked for 10 years. Before that, I worked
with the English language...
not with Armenians.
When you were an Armenian teacher, did you
feel free in Syria to say anything in
school or about what the government allows
and what it does not?
We had permission for 4 hours per week
to teach the Armenian language
in Armenian schools and 2 hours
to teach religion.
We were free. We had Armenian language
and religion books.
We had no restrictions.
We have been very free.
We have also had our own printing press
and our newspapers and printed books
in Armenian. We would easily receive
permission to print from the Syrian
government. Until the time that we did not
make a mistake and say and/or write
something wrong about the government
or against religion, we could print
anything. It was a positive thing to be
an Armenian in Syria. As a minority,
we had many rights.
Everyone was equal. Everyone was equal.
The Arabs, the Armenians, the Assyrians,
and the Kurds, all had equal rights.
Unlike some other minorities, we had
schools, the printing press, theaters,
and scouting ranks. We had all the rights.
We were never treated differently
by the government... not by our last prime
minister and not by the current one.
Did you experience any difficulty?
I know you said that the government did
not cause any difficulty. Did the people?
The people? No, they were very respectful
in regards to us. The Arabs were very
respectful towards us. All of us have had
friendships. We all have had good
and honest friends. We have never been
told you are Armenian...
why do you live here?
You should go back to Armenia. They have
never said that. On the contrary,
they were happy with us. The Arab culture
has always shown respect to the Armenian people.
Do you see a difference between
Armenians and non-Armenians in terms
of how they were treated? A difference?
All Syrians are one. There could not be
any difference between them. As Syrians,
we were equal. We had not noticed any
difference. When there were religious
events, like Easter or other holidays,
we would celebrate them differently
than others since we were Christian.
In general! In general, we were one.
There was no difference
between us. On the contrary,
we would visit each other. They would
visit us during the holidays. We would
visit them and wish them happy holidays.
We have never felt any difference.
When you got older (apart from work),
what would you do in your life?
I had a strong social life. Strong social life!
I like having friends. I have gone to
a lot of places with my brother like
historical castles and other antiquities.
Syria is a rich country with its
historical sites. If you have heard of
the city of Palmyra, it is very known.
I visited a lot of ancient places in Syria with my brother.
Do you want
to explain anything from your life
before the war?
Before the war, I do not have anything
specific to talk about. I already said
everything. I talked about the type
of life we had... a good and happy life.
Difficulties! We cannot call it
difficulties. These are normal
difficulties that we have overcome
in life. Before the war, it was very good.
After the war, however, everything changed.
Before 2011, were there
any signs that a war was going to
start soon?
For the most part, there were signs.
Things happened. Some governments
threatened others.
Middle Eastern countries have
always been in danger. The worry about
a war starting has always been there.
But until the last minute, you cannot know
that for sure a war will take place.
Maybe, they will come to an agreement.
You will get convinced of that and will
always have hope that it will not happen.
When did you know the war in Syria
had started? What were the first signs?
In the beginning, it started at
the outskirts. We heard the sounds.
I visited Armenia for 2 months. I was
going to return to Aleppo. They came
and took over the city.
I stayed here for a while. A lot
of people came from Aleppo. They came
in 2012 in August and September. It was
during that time. I stayed here too. Then,
there were people that returned to Aleppo.
During New Year's Day, I returned too.
I stayed there for 6 months. Then, I went
back. In June 2013, I came back to
Armenia. I came back here.
When you traveled from Syria
to Armenia and from Armenia to Syria... how was it?
The first time, I came here on
an airplane and returned the same way.
The second time, I came with a car.
We came on our own. We passed
the Turkish border and went to Georgia
and after Armenia.
Any difficulties?
Of course, there were going to be some
difficulties. It was evident that we were
going to have some difficulties.
We left illegally. So, we were going
to face some difficulties.
The 6 months that you were in Syria...
Yes. What state was Aleppo in?
It was really bad. It was really bad.
There was no electricity.
There was no water.
Excuse me.
Yes, there was in the beginning.
After...
Always, there was the fear of death.
It was not the fear of death per se, but
the way that someone was going to die.
It was the violent depictions displayed
in videos and photos on YouTube.
More than death, you would worry about
the way you were going to die.
You always heard the people
and the sound of bombs.
At night, it would get worse.
In the morning, it would be less.
And why? I turned back,
because it was safer.
I came back to Armenia, because it was safer.
Why did you go back
to Armenia and then Syria?
I went to Syria. My brother was in Syria.
We were going to celebrate New Year's.
We had no one there. We did not want
my brother to be alone.
I am here. He is there.
I took the risk. I did not want to...
In this world, he only has me
and I only have him.
That is how I went there.
And then, we came here together.
And... are the other families still in Aleppo?
I do not have a mom and a dad.
Other family members? My mom and my dad
have already passed away. My brother...
Before the war?
My mom died before the war due to an illness.
My dad died long before that.
And... the first time you went to Armenia?
Was that the first time that you went to Armenia?
I came here in 2004 with other
teachers for training purposes
for 1 month. I was in love with Armenia.
I had left my soul here. I wanted to
live in Armenia. We had decided with
the family to live here. My brother would
come when he had breaks.
He would say that we should live here
and go back later. We said that it is
hard. We already have good jobs
back home.
And yes, we came.
Did you come in 2012?
The last time was in 2013.
But the first time in 2012? Yes, 2012.
The first first time was in 2004. 2004!
The second one was in 2012.
How was your new life? How did you feel
in Armenia? How was life there?
What were the difficulties?
2012? Yes! You mean the differences
in 2004, right?
No, no, Not the differences.
You said that you went in 2012 just
to visit and you ended up staying
here after. How was it during that time?
Living here is different. Visiting is
different too.
Living here is very difficult. You really
have to have a good job to live here.
And... when you decided that I visited
and now I want to live here, did anyone
help you with where to live?
Or how to find a job?
No! How to help? I stayed in Echmiadzin.
The people were really great. I have had
neighbours... as soon as I moved to
a house, they always came to ask
if I needed anything.
If I said, yes, I need something.
They have offered pots, pans, blankets,
pillows, and clothing.
If I said, yes, I need something.
I would most probably have rooms
full of pots and pans and blankets.
The community always offered to help.
We were always treated well.
[Children yelling in background] Children? Yes!
I have received help from Mission
Armenia, and they helped pay my rent.
I have also received books
from the Red Cross (and that is
worth mentioning as well).
There is another organization
called UN in English.
They are always willing and continue to
help us. We also have Syrian centers
called ACMA. They distribute
nutrients/food every 3-4 months.
One of the charities helps us find
doctors. We get help from Syrian doctors,
and they take care of us without pay.
The government has made education free.
Going to the polyclinic is also free.
The government tries to help us
as much as possible.
And... the first time in Armenia...
not the first time but the second time...
did you work during that time? Where?
Here! Here, I taught people at home.
Taught! That is how they say it in Eastern
Armenian. So, I did one-on-one
sessions with kids.
In that way, I was able to make a living.
Second? The third time?
No! When I came here the last time,
I did one-on-one sessions. When I
came here to visit, no,
I just came to visit.
In 2014, the third time that you came,
where did you live? Or now, where do you live?
I lived mostly in Etchmiadzin
and then came to Yerevan. They paid
the rent. When they stopped, I could
no longer continue to pay the rent.
It is hard to survive in Yerevan. I went
back to Etchmiadzin. And there,
Mission Armenia helped me
again. UN paid my rent.
After that, my dream was to live
in Yerevan. There are more job
opportunities in Yerevan.
I applied to UN and Mission Armenia,
and they helped me find a boarding room.
I have been living there for a year and a half now.
And... do you live here
and work with Mission Armenia?
I take part in trainings. I teach kids.
I give English classes
and sometimes Armenian.
Because... learning from Western to
Eastern Armenian is very easy. It is
much easier. The grammar and spelling
and etcetera are much easier.
And... how is life at the new house?
How is life there? I live in a unit
that has 5 boarding rooms.
We all live in the same unit.
The only problem is during winter
we had heating problems.
Last year! Last year, we did not have
a bathroom to take a shower in
or could not even do laundry. We were
not living in good conditions. As soon as
a drop of water would drip on the floor...
it was scary even the elderly could
have slipped. UN paid for the rent
and renovations of this housing unit.
Some renovations were done, but some have
not been completed and I do not know why.
Heating is an important issue
in the winter.
We really need it, but who is going to
help us and how I do not know.
How do you think the government
and the other organizations are going
to help Syrian-Armenians to have
a better and easier life here?
The government does all that it can.
They can only help within their limits.
The organizations and benefactors of other
foreign countries can help us more
effectively if it is well-coordinated
with local authorities.
Which organization and in what way...
that only they know.
I think that the organizations can help us
more, but they have already helped us
(like UN and the Red Cross).
They have already done that.
And... did you feel welcomed by
the Armenians living in Armenia?
Did you feel welcome and see any
differences in the culture?
On the contrary, I was emotionally ready
to live here from way before.
The Armenia population is not that
different compared to Syrian-Armenians.
They have been to and visited Aleppo
already. We are not foreigners. For us,
the Armenian culture is not different.
There can be some small differences.
The country the Diasporan
is from can have an effect on him/her.
Here, it is a purely Armenian culture.
Everything is very beautiful and nice.
There is not that much difference. I got
used to it quickly. I accepted them in
every way from their cuisine to their way
of thinking. It was not that difficult.
With those little cultural and language
differences, how do you keep your
Syrian-Armenian culture here in Armenia?
For the Syrian culture, first is
Western Armenian. I do not want to forget
Western Armenian. I want to pronounce
Eastern Armenian well, but I cannot.
I can talk (said in Western).
I can talk (said in Eastern).
Pronouncing it is difficult.
Unfortunately, we have lost
the traditional pronunciations.
As a Syrian culture, an Armenian
culture, a Syrian-Armenian culture,
we still have the same traditions and
continue to do things in the same way.
Do you still think that you live
in your homeland? This is not the same
homeland that your grandfathers
and grandmothers lived in? Do you still
feel that this is your homeland?
Of course, it is not the same. 100 years
ago, it was different. It is not about
the 100 years. Already 5 years ago,
Armenia was different. Life is more
difficult now. When I came as a tourist
just to visit, my point of view
was different. Now that I live here,
it is more difficult. I saw more
of the difficulties. It is mine
and I belong to it. The sense of
belongingness is very nice. All Armenians
have to put their roots in Armenia.
Every person has to put their roots in
their own land.
When on someone else's land you plant
a tree, you might not have the time to sit
under the tree's shadow. You have to plant
the tree on your own land.
Do you want to stay here? Or go back
to Aleppo? Or go somewhere else?
I want to go back to Aleppo, because
I miss the land that I grew up in
(my birthplace, my home, and my neighborhood).
I have lived there for 46 years before
coming here. Of course, I have a lot of
memories there and I miss everyone there,
but I want to continue to live in Armenia.
And... what do you want to do for work?
On my own? On my own! If I do not find
a good job, there is no hope.
There has to be a job out there.
You should not lose all hope.
To enjoy life, you have to create your own
aspirations. Without work, you cannot
do anything.
What kind of job do you want?
Whatever is available. This is Armenia.
You have to work with whatever work
is available.
You said that you do not have family in Aleppo.
No, I do not have family there.
Do you have any family there?
No, no family.
Yes, I have friends and neighbours there.
Are they still there?
For the most part, they went to Europe.
For the most part, no one is there now.
Is your house still there? Yes, it is.
Is anyone checking up on it? Yes!
In 1915, we had to... no... we were forced
to leave. We did not decide to leave.
Unfortunately, our forefathers were
all displaced in 1915.
From the war, the ruins, and the death
of many people, only a few of the families
made it to Syrian land.
Now, it is very different. No one told us
to leave Syria. Never. We left. There are
still a lot of Armenians that live in
Aleppo, Syria. We left. We had the ability
to leave. We had the convenience to
leave. We wanted to leave. From the people
that came to Armenia with us, they came
here temporarily. We thought the war
would end and we would go back.
That is the reason why we came here.
Now, I do not want to talk for other
people. For the most part, the people
that have work here do not go back.
When they have learned and gotten used to
the life here and have a job here,
I do not think that they will go back.
I highly doubt that Aleppo will go back
to the way it was. It will take a long
time for it to be the same as before.
It will take a long time.
And... for you, personally, what draws you to Armenia?
Personally! Since childhood, the love
for Armenia was in our house, at school,
and in the community centers. There is
a problem of keeping our Armenianhood.
The community centers and the schools
work with this issue. In our house,
patriotism was important. They always
mentioned Armenia. When I came
to Armenia in 2004 for 1 month,
I left my soul here.
I wanted to live here, but we could not
dare to do that because of work. We could
not destroy everything there and start
a new life here. We did not know if
we would succeed or not. I already
wanted to live in Armenia. And now,
I am here.
Very good!
What advice would you give? To give advice
to who? To Syrian-Armenians?
Yes, the ones that returned to Armenia.
I do not give myself permission to give
advice to others, because every
difficulty and experience in life teaches
you something new. You will see that
there is still a lot that you do not know.
For this reason, I cannot give advice
to anybody. Everyone will know what is
convenient for them and will think before
taking the appropriate steps. Like I said
before, for everyone their motherland
has to be their inspiring, final
destination that they will feel
comfortable in.
We do not need to live in foreign lands.
You always have to live on your own land.
The next generation... you will teach
the next generation about their own land.
The tree that I talked about earlier,
you are going to plant it on
your motherland. That is a beautiful
statement.
Can you tell me about yourself
in two words? About myself?
What are those two words?
I am proud that I am Armenian. I am still
having some difficulties and do not know
what the future will bring, but I am happy
that I live in Armenia. I always wanted to
live here.
I am thankful to the Armenian people
here that were always ready to help.
How can Syrian-Armenians help Armenia?
Every person that has a talent or can
bring something new to the table
or has a skill, depending on
the conditions, he/she can help
Armenia. Why not? It depends if
he/she has the right conditions.
He/she has to be given the opportunity.
The conditions have to be met
financially first.
You can work with things you know, so that
you can help others as well. If someone
has a personal store, he/she is not going
to work alone. That individual will have
other employees. Other families will be
able to benefit from them too. This is
the smallest way that they can help.
There are other ways too. They can
be artists or artisans for example.
Syrian-Armenians have some advanced
and knowledgeable workers now that work
in different centers like the national
library and other places that
I do not want to specify.
There are already Syrian-Armenians that
are working and are helping Armenia.
And... how did you make friends and make
a community here? New social life?
With Syrian-Armenians or Armenians from Armenia?
My surroundings are mostly
Eastern Armenians. I like change. I was
emotionally ready to accept all
the changes. Their life is interesting.
It was not difficult to get used to
the change. For me, it was nice.
I have many vast, rich,
and interesting surroundings.
What are? You were so happy when you
were saying Armenia has welcomed you
and maybe you have said it already, but
what are some examples of how
they welcomed you?
How Armenia has welcomed you?
How the Armenians were accepting
of us here? Example? Do you have
examples? How they welcomed us?
Like I said before... how the people?
Do you have stories or examples?
For example, it has happened that I have
been in some sort of transportation
and had to go somewhere
and they knew from the way
I talked that I spoke Western Armenian
and they have paid 100 AMD for me.
They wanted to do something. It has
happened that they did not take 100 AMD
from me or the taxi charged me less.
All these people are people I do not know.
Speaking about neighbours, as soon as
I would move...
they would ask me what I need.
With that question, you know that you are
not alone. There have always been people
who were willing to help us. It was not
only me. There have always been people
and institutions who wanted to help
(like the Red Cross, UN,
and Mission Armenia). They are
non-Syrian organizations. They already
help us. There are a lot of people here
that want to help us.
Is there anything you want to add that
you did not say?
There is a lot.
What kind of thing?
All the Armenians should come back to Armenia.
Please see, for example, my family has
always loved Armenia even before
seeing it. I already loved Armenia. When
we saw Armenia, we fell in love with it...
because you feel like you belong to it
and it belongs to you and is your mom.
With all its bad qualities, it is yours
and you belong to it. We really wanted
to come and move here. Since we always
thought about our work situation, we did
not take the necessary steps to move here.
You can see that the day came and that we
are here now. We should not have come in
this way. We should have been more
organized when we came here. In the end,
we heard that our place is our mother's
lap and not foreign lands. Syria,
my birthplace, is a very good place
in terms of its people and its government.
They are like family to us.
Your motherland should be your country.
All the Armenians, especially those that
had the convenience to work here, can
create jobs. They do not have to think.
There is not that much to think about.
They have to come and start from here
and after them the next generation.
When the Diasporans start to come
to Armenia, especially the youth, they
should not be easily discouraged and have
high hopes. You should create that hope.
From generation to generation, we get
better. We sit and watch the Diasporans
from afar. The love of Armenia is
not enough. We have to do something.
Everyone should do, whatever they can do.
There is a short story.
In the forest, a fire takes place.
All the animals... what does that word
mean? Fire! All the animals think about
saving their souls and run away. All
of a sudden, they see a bird on its back
and its feet up. They ask the bird, what
are you doing? Run away and save your
soul. You can get burnt and die. The bird
says, no, I am holding up the sky.
So, that bird with its small and weak feet
is trying to do its part.
It holds up the sky to protect and save
the forest. Sorry, it was not fire.
You could say that it was the end
of the world.
If everyone does what they
can like the bird in the story and does
not get discouraged, something will
happen. So, we can do something to help.
Anything else?
No, that is all. I am a teacher I can
talk all morning.
We learned a lot from you.