WEBVTT
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Music
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Herald Angel: So, they say that the only
certainties in life are death and taxes
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and even hackers have decided that death
is easier to cheat.
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Life is about to get, way more interesting
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for more than 60 million Europeans, and
we're going to find out why here is the
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taxman with the international exchange of
tax information.
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Why don't we give him a huge round of
applause?
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Huge applause
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Taxman: C3 rocks! Yeah, thanks for being
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here I deal with this stuff every day and
I'm happy that some other people are
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interested in this because I have the
impression the subject hasn't really made
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its way into the public. There's a lot of
ignorance out there even among
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specialists. So, thank you very much for
listening to what I have to go through
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nearly every day. What am I going to talk
about? First, what are FATCA and CRS?
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FATCA is the Foreign Account Tax
Compliance Act. CRS, Common Reporting
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Standard. From now on don't remember what
it stands for. It's FATCA and CRS. I'll
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give you some practical advice how FATCA
affects you and what you can do about it.
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And, at the end, since we're on the
political section here at CCC I would like
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to venture 2 or 3 thoughts on what FATCA
and CRS means for, let's say, society as a
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whole. Let's see, here we are! This is the
most important slide of my talk, so, if
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you got this one you can go home. What is
going... What's going on here? You, the
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listeners, we're the pink dudes.
[Pause]
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Rattling sounds
...with bank accounts, financial
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institutions and the parlance of FATCA and
CRS. Banks will collect information from
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us, forward it to the local tax
administration. In this case, the
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Luxembourg flag suggests we're in
Luxembourg. The Luxembourg tax
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administration will collects this
information and forward it to the
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designated countries. On the top, we see a
foreign tax administration that doesn't
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have a flag. Imagine there's an American
flag there. FATCA deals with forwarding
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information from - the German, Luxembourg,
French, etc, tax administration's - to the
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United States. CRS the Common Reporting
Standard took the idea, the model of the
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American's, copied it and convinced about
a 100 nations to sign up. Here in the
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example, we see Germany, France, but China
is among the nations that will receive and
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provide information. Russia is there,
Chile is there, just imagine the list of
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signatories to the MCAA another
abbreviation to the convention that was
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signed on the 29th of October 2014 grows
every day. 101 Nations is already pretty
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big. If you look at this schema or at this
structure there's something funny. They
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want information about you but they're not
gonna ask you. Who are they gonna ask?
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Your bank. Banks are gonna get fined,
banks are gonna get in trouble. But they
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gonna forward your information. One of the
problems with FATCA and CRS is that the
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terms are rather vague and ill-defined.
You think "yeah I've got a bank, I can
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handle my bank no problem" but have you
ever thought that your lawyer might need
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to forward your information? Meaning
you're a foreign -- you're a foreigner the
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lawyer in his ordinary course of business
accepts deposits -- in this case retainers
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and client funds -- and has to forward
this information.
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Many lawyers are not aware of this, I
believe the law is ambiguous, the reason
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why I take lawyers as an example FATCA and
CRS are pretty identical. Under FATCA the
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Germans negotiated that lawyers don't have
to report any information, under CRS we
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don't have this exception.
So, vague terms, ill-defined terms and a
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huge amount of data being thrown around in
the world. I was introduced with the
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example of PayPal, PayPal in Luxembourg.
My guesstimate is -- according to SEC
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filings, PayPal has about 150 million
accounts, Europe is an important market,
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60 million accounts in Europe -- the tax
administration's are going to receive 60
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million notifications about PayPal
balances and that's not all I mean think
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about your bank whether your hold shares,
whether you have the normal -- how do you
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call it -- deposit, a deposit account, a
savings account all this information is
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going to be forwarded. Who is particularly
affected? People with connection to
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foreign countries. The guy in pink will be
a person with the contact, with the
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relationship, to a foreign country, I will
show you what this relationship can look
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like. Okay we're at CCC, XML schema,
nothing new for you, it's a tree. Don't
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worry, the more interesting stuff is going
on here; the ambiguities in the schema.
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It is promoted by the OECD, the
Organization for the Economic Cooperation
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and Development. Cooperation and
development sound so good and at the end
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they just pass our tax information around.
Some of the problems here, one of the
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problems, transliteration; a hundred and
one nations as of December signing up.
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What about the information we're going to
get from China? Are they gonna send
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Chinese characters? And imagine there's a
German in China. A friend of mine, Robert,
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his name in China is 罗伯特, how is this
information gonna come back? If you look
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at Bulgaria you have Cyrillic, Cyrillic,
if you transliterate it to German is
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transliterated in a special way, the
Germans have a DIN, a norm, to
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transliterate Cyrillic. That norm is not
identical with how the French
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transliterate Cyrillic characters, so if
the Germans ask about suspicious character
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Anton Chekhov and ask the French
authorities, they might not talk about the
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same guy, because the spelling is slightly
different.
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the ambiguities in this schema are in a
way more irksome because here I just have
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three nodes, the header, the financial
information-- financial institution and
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the person or account information. The
OECD went overboard and has meta
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information on each of those nodes,
describing what type of information is
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supposed to follow. So what's going to
happen -- or how is anybody to interpret
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information where in the header you say
it's new, on the FI node you say it's
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corrected and then the person/ account
info you say it's gonna be deleted. How
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are we going to resolve this? For me an
example of lawyers and technology, meaning
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anybody who works with this, will have
some pain and suffering.
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Okay, practical advice. First of all, what
type of information is going to be
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reported.
You see here the name, address, the
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jurisdictions of residence, TINs, that's a
tax payer information number, and the date
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of place of birth.
So at one point I was trying to make the
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presentation a little more visual and I
was looking for images for place-- place
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of birth and I found somebody who wrote to
this-- to this request to provide this
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information -- home delivery. No that's
not what is meant when the OECD asked for
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the place of birth it's the date of birth
is important. If you have two Pierre
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Dupont that's the way to keep them apart,
meaning your birth date information is
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relevant to keep you apart from other
people having your name. The information
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itself is fairly technical, there's
nothing really going overboard. The idea
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of FATCA and CRS was to catch individual
tax cheats. We're not talking about
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corporations dodging taxes or anything. We
are trying to-- or FATCA is trying to
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catch people who evade taxes. How did
Americans in particular evade taxes in the
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past? They had a trip to the Bahamas with
the suitcase full of money and deposited
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the money in an account there. Maybe they
got a credit card and used the credit card
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in the United States to live off the
interest that the account accumulated.
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Since Bahamas, Cayman Island, Turks,
Caicos didn't have any exchange in regards
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to this information with the United
States. These Americans went home free
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thus cheating the taxman. Later on they
became a little smarter, instead of
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signing up for an account themselves they
created corporations or trusts. So it's no
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longer in the name of your own name but in
the name of your trust that you hold these
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funds. So the information that the banks
are forwarding, is actually -- how to say
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-- it's fairly technical, they are not
going overboard. That having said you
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might disagree with the whole idea of tax
exchange-- of exchanging tax information
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but this is basically what you expect to
see when you're looking for tax cheats.
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Number 5, not only your account balance as
of the 31st of December so you still have
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a chance to change that today and
tomorrow, if you take all the money out
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then nothing is gonna be reported, and
your dividends and gross proceeds of--
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gross proceeds for the sale of shares or
other financial assets is going to be
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reported.
That's-- that's a lot. Okay how do banks
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find out whether you are a potential tax
cheat? I listed the three main criteria
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they're looking for. They ask you-- or if
they know whether you're resident of
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reportable jurisdiction; if you are an
American your birth certificate is
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sufficient. I've seen it with other banks
that they come around now to ask "Show me
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a birth certificate", if you're an
American, your information is gonna be
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reported to the United States, to the IRS.
If you give the-- a mailing address or a
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residence address in a country abroad,
that similar will trigger the bank to look
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a little more carefully at your account.
What banks typically do is when they find
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this information they send you a self-
certification. They ask you "Please
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certify this information". They basically
ask you "Were your tax resident and is the
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mailing address correct?". And think about
number three: Phone numbers. The phone
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number the bank has on record will trigger
this additional search or sending out the
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self-certification form. Meaning, you've
got a Google number with a zero zero one
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country code your bank is gonna ask you
and if you don't respond, they're gonna
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send this information to the United
States. Your tax account information.
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What can you do about it? Be local.
Meaning check with your bank, whether all
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the information the bank has on file about
you reflects a local residence. I have
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heard -I cannot verify it- that certain
countries make this a business by
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providing easy resident certificates,
meaning you can go to countries so easily
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obtain a certificate of residence then go
to your bank and open an account. When the
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bank is reviewing the information it sees
taxman local guy.
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This information doesn't have to be
forwarded to another country because he
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supposedly is paying his taxes locally. Is
there a legal option; is there a legal
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opportunity or is there a case for lawyers
here? It's a little doubtful.
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In Germany, the Germans changed the law in
the fiscal code regarding the
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consultation. Typically, or before the
automatic exchange of tax information, the
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Germans asked you, consulted you, gave you
a chance to voice your objections, before
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they would forward your information to
another country. For automatic exchange of
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information like FATCA and CRS, this is no
longer the case. Nevertheless, there has
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been a case in Germany decided by the
fiscal court in Cologne, where the German
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tax administration wanted to forward
information to the Turkish government in
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regards to some payment, a German company
has made.
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So, the German company thought, their
contact and Turkey would be burnt and they
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provided an expert opinion, that turkey
does not safeguard tax information. The
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Turkish finance minister claimed the
country, but the court was not convinced.
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So the court in Cologne said: "German tax
administration, you can not forward this
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information to a country that doesn't
follow data privacy laws!" Let's look at
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FATCA and CRS. We're talking about 60
million; hundred million accounts being
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distributed all over the world. The courts
are not -I believe- not going to shoot
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down CRS and FATCA. They will not ask the
tax administration to hear you, before
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your information is being passed on to
another country. However, if you can come
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up with an expert opinion and say: "My
information is gonna hurt me in Turkey or
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wherever", I believe the fiscal courts in
Germany would issue an injunction, would
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prevent the German tax administration in
Bonn, to forward the information. Think
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about turkey. Turkey, nothing incentive,
but it's a third world country. Compared
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to any other third world country in the
world, you can most likely obtain an
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expert opinion from -regarding any third
world country- that they are not
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protecting data; that they are not
protecting tax information in the country.
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They're gonna use it to shame you, so even
though I'm not really convinced, that the
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legal solution is a good one, it will be
interesting to see what the courts say in
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this regard.
A little ray of hope was, that for another
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tax information exchange, the French,
their Conseil d'État, recently decided,
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based on a law signed -oh, it wasn't a
law, it was a decree by Louis XVI.
NOTE Paragraph
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Laughter
This was, I means,
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it must have been weeks before he
was beheaded 1791, that they didn't want
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to participate in this other tax
information exchange, which is a country-
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by-country reporting regarding companies.
So maybe -we have not heard the courts
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yet- maybe, there's still something to
come. Ok, let's look at the consequences
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of this.
I'm very concerned about CRS and FATCA.
00:19:29.510 --> 00:19:37.250
On the one hand, anybody who is a little
international, might run into problems.
00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:42.919
For FATCA, Americans have problems opening
bank accounts in Europe, because the
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European banks think, it's not worth the
trouble. So Americans are complaining
00:19:48.870 --> 00:19:57.979
about not being able to bank outside the
United States. With CRS this is a little
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different, because a hundred nations; they
can't always refuse foreigners. But you
00:20:05.789 --> 00:20:14.110
see, that the target of FATCA and CRS are
individuals like you and me, who are a
00:20:14.110 --> 00:20:20.820
little mobile and travel and work across
the globe. Our life is a little more
00:20:20.820 --> 00:20:28.929
difficult with this. The other thing is:
If you think that you want to create a
00:20:28.929 --> 00:20:38.799
start-up in the space, the compliance
burden is very high. This type of law
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:43.570
prevents starts of innovation in the
space.
00:20:43.570 --> 00:20:51.140
That's it already. I hope you have some
questions, so I can elaborate a little
00:20:51.140 --> 00:20:57.320
more on individual details, that you might
be interested in. Thank you very much.
00:20:57.320 --> 00:21:04.260
Applause
00:21:04.260 --> 00:21:07.230
Herald: Great! So, questions. If you have
a question: Again,
00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:10.331
please, the microphones
are here and here in the aisles, so
00:21:10.331 --> 00:21:14.160
already in the back.
Person 1 from audience: Yeah, hi! I was
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.110
wondering, if it was possible to know, if
the information has already been traded or
00:21:18.110 --> 00:21:21.210
sent to other countries or things like
that.
00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:28.480
Taxman: FATCA was originally implemented
in 2010. The first exchange, I mean banks
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:36.170
were required to submit the information,
on the 30th of June 2015. So we've already
00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:41.459
seen two rounds of exchanging data with
the United States. For the Common
00:21:41.459 --> 00:21:47.140
Reporting Standard, CRS, we're going to
see the first exchange next year. Until
00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:53.099
the 30th of June, banks were required to
submit the information, until the 30th of
00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:57.280
June. The tax administration itself has
three more months, until the 30th of
00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:03.740
September, to forward the information to
the respective countries.
00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:06.680
Herald: Great! Do we have a question from
the internet?
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:12.100
Angel: Yes. Somebody on IRC wants to know,
because when you have an American social
00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:17.330
security number or someone, you can commit
identity theft. Is the problem the same
00:22:17.330 --> 00:22:21.619
for German tax IDs or are they more immune
to that?
00:22:21.619 --> 00:22:28.370
Taxman: To be honest... Okay, 2 parts to
the answer: a) I'm not an expert on German
00:22:28.370 --> 00:22:34.529
tax numbers and identity theft, in the
United States social security number is a
00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:39.039
lot more important. So, once you have
social security number, you get loans and
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:44.929
everything else. Typically when you apply
for a loan with a car or wherever, you
00:22:44.929 --> 00:22:48.580
don't -- at least according to my
experiences, which is very limited -- you
00:22:48.580 --> 00:22:55.269
don't provide your German social security
number. The encryption of the information
00:22:55.269 --> 00:23:01.490
etc. is something I would not be worried
about. I mean encryption in this space is
00:23:01.490 --> 00:23:08.029
a solved problem and the tax
administration, they'll follow best
00:23:08.029 --> 00:23:15.660
practices, so that the information is
going to be used by third party, I
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:22.429
believe, is not a major problem. The other
thing is, however, that everybody is
00:23:22.429 --> 00:23:26.140
basically considered... everybody who has
connection with a foreign country is
00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:31.049
basically considered a tax cheat and will
be treated differently from local
00:23:31.049 --> 00:23:37.860
residents. That is a problem I see.
Herald: All right. From up front.
00:23:37.860 --> 00:23:41.370
Person 2 from audience: So, I've had the
displeasure of having to file an F bar
00:23:41.370 --> 00:23:45.929
and, as part of the F bar, it asked for
the highest amount of money in my account
00:23:45.929 --> 00:23:51.250
at any point in time in the year. And I
filled all that out and so forth, as
00:23:51.250 --> 00:23:57.389
condescending as it was, but now you're
saying the fact, actually, now wants to
00:23:57.389 --> 00:24:01.410
report my amount of money at the end of
the year. The two are completely
00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:04.860
incongruent! Like how... I mean you're
kind of spelling out that there's going to
00:24:04.860 --> 00:24:09.019
be a giant data mess. Is this going to
factor into that? Do have any thoughts on
00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:14.690
this?
Taxman: As I mentioned about FATCA, the
00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:21.380
date to report information is the 31st of
December; that's for account balances. For
00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:30.539
sale of shares, any time during the year.
For information regarding interest and
00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:37.309
dividends, any time during the year.
Talking about "data mess": Yes, I'm pretty
00:24:37.309 --> 00:24:45.259
much convinced this will be a huge data
mess. Think about for Germany: German
00:24:45.259 --> 00:24:55.341
public servants receiving 20 million
records -- and this is only PayPal, we're
00:24:55.341 --> 00:25:01.009
not talking about credit cards, we're not
talking about bank accounts. This is just
00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:08.110
one measly little company. So, and it's
not only the Germans, and, by the way,
00:25:08.110 --> 00:25:12.799
American tax administration was completely
overwhelmed by the implementation of
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:19.590
FATCA. You could see it that they changed
the technical requirements by changing the
00:25:19.590 --> 00:25:25.029
FAQs on the website. So, you went to the
website a week later and found out "Oh,
00:25:25.029 --> 00:25:30.889
there're 10 new special characters we
can't use", so the tax administrations
00:25:30.889 --> 00:25:35.720
across the globe, they are overwhelmed,
and what's going to happen with these
00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:44.159
data... It will depend on each country and
the data privacy standards. I mean, the
00:25:44.159 --> 00:25:50.850
Germans take this very seriously, but
think about a small country whether it's
00:25:50.850 --> 00:25:59.049
Luxembourg or some country in the
Caribbean, Panama: These guys, they lack
00:25:59.049 --> 00:26:03.340
certain practices; they haven't been, so
to speak, under attack; they haven't been
00:26:03.340 --> 00:26:11.789
able to develop the defenses. So, a lot of
data will float around the internet in the
00:26:11.789 --> 00:26:15.739
end, I believe.
Herald: Okay, we have time for one short
00:26:15.739 --> 00:26:20.330
one and a very short answer, so can we go
to the front here?
00:26:20.330 --> 00:26:24.600
Person 3 from audience: Yeah, one
question: In which country are you tax
00:26:24.600 --> 00:26:29.369
resident when you are living in several
countries for quite a long time in the
00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:32.799
year? For instance, 3 countries, four
months. How is it decided?
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:38.519
Taxman: Very good question and banks are
supposed to figure this out, but banks ...
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:43.230
quiet laughter Yeah, I mean the bank has
to report, so banks are overwhelmed, so
00:26:43.230 --> 00:26:51.519
that makes you an expert in the different
laws of each jurisdiction you're in. For
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:59.119
Germany, I believe it's 183 days residence
here. In the United States and Eritrea...
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.480
Hey, something Eritrean and the United
States have in common, place of birth is
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:12.710
enough. In Eritrea, I was told, paying
taxes more of an option, but okay.
00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:17.970
laughter So you are... the bank will ask
you on the self-certification "Where are
00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:23.560
your tax resident?" and you are supposed
to know, which is a little painful. I
00:27:23.560 --> 00:27:27.660
mean, you're for 4 months in the country.
Are you tax resident? You don't know the
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:33.480
funny tax laws everybody has. So, the
burden is on you. I mean, the bank tries
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:38.870
to put the burden on you, because you're
not going to get fined, the bank is going
00:27:38.870 --> 00:27:43.610
to get fined.
Herald: Great. Let's give the taxman a
00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:54.169
warm round of applause.
[Applause]
00:27:54.169 --> 00:28:00.029
[Music]
00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:18.000
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