WEBVTT 00:00:27.206 --> 00:00:32.082 KILGALLEN: I like things that are handmade,  and I like to see people's hand in the world. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:35.640 Any day in the mission in San Francisco, 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:40.200 you can see a hand-painted  sign that is kind of funky. 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:45.912 And maybe that person, if they had money,  they would prefer to have a neon sign. 00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:48.320 But I don't prefer that. 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:51.234 I think it's beautiful what they  did, in that they did it themselves. 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:54.413 That's what I find beautiful. 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.130 –Um, I'm an artist and I just  like those figures a lot. 00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:01.272 –Do you know who painted them? 00:01:02.190 --> 00:01:03.779 –No, no. –They're pretty awesome. 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.040 Often in the city, when there's  so many things to look at, 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.160 and so many things going on,  you don't see those things, 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:12.434 but I see those things. 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.680 MCGEE: There's a lot of talk of how damaging graffiti is, 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.800 and this destruction that happens with graffiti, 00:01:44.800 --> 00:01:46.280 but there's actually no damage at all, 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.201 it can be like painted over with a roller. 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:54.080 They're just like commercial jingles, like, 00:01:54.080 --> 00:01:55.640 that are stuck in my head, and to me, 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:57.674 that's like, that's damage to me. 00:01:59.662 --> 00:02:04.603 KILGALLEN: The public looks at graffiti  and sees garbage, and sees ugliness. 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.400 And I always wonder why they  don't look at the billboards, 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.170 especially around San Francisco,  there's millions, everywhere, 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:13.000 isn't that garbage? 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:15.220 That's like mind garbage. 00:02:16.706 --> 00:02:19.920 MCGEE: The billboards are very subversive,  and advertising is very subversive, 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:23.438 whereas, like most of the stuff that's done  on the street is very close to the truth. 00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:27.001 It's like the highest art there is. 00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:31.166 I've done graffiti for a hell of a long time. 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:33.720 There's never been like a time when I was like, 00:02:33.720 --> 00:02:37.259 oh, I'm like 25 now, I'm  going to stop doing graffiti. 00:02:37.720 --> 00:02:39.960 You know, it wasn't like a planned thing, like, 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.690 oh, I do art, now I'm gonna surf  and now I'm gonna do graffiti. 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.156 It's just everything, I've always done it. 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.960 KILGALLEN: And most of the things that inspire my artwork are 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:15.000 folk art of some kind, American folk art. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.289 I'm also very interested in Indian folk art. 00:03:21.440 --> 00:03:27.880 When I first started painting seriously,  I used to look at a lot of typography 00:03:27.880 --> 00:03:29.760 from, like, the 16th century, 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.360 and the color of the inks that they used, 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:38.661 which were normally black  and red, and sometimes blue. 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.480 Having a background in doing  printmaking and doing letterpress, 00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:53.560 I became very interested in  images that were flat and graphic. 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.946 And my painting still today is very flat. 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:17.400 In my own work, I do everything  by hand, I don't project. 00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:20.920 I do spend a lot of time  trying to perfect my line work 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:26.421 and my hand, but my hand will always  be imperfect because it's human. 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:36.200 If I'm doing really big letters and I  spend a lot of time going over the line 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:38.080 and over the line trying to make it straight, 00:04:38.080 --> 00:04:40.000 I'll never be able to make it straight. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.520 From a distance, it might look  straight, but when you get close up, 00:04:46.520 --> 00:04:48.770 you can always see the line waver. 00:04:49.840 --> 00:04:53.414 And I think that's, that's where the beauty is. 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.141 MCGEE: I bring in every little damn thing on the street. 00:05:14.280 --> 00:05:15.760 Some stuff makes it, some doesn't. 00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:17.680 Some things just get walked  on for years and years, 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:21.122 and then magically, it works in a frame. 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:24.680 I like that process of a thing discarded 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.920 then picked up and then intercepted, 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.520 and then I do something on  it and then it goes into 00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:32.640 a fine collector's home, probably. 00:05:32.640 --> 00:05:34.604 And, once again, it's cherished. 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:43.120 The frame clusters of drawings are usually  little scenarios that have developed 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.800 and that I have seen on the street, and  then go home and just draw it, or whatnot, 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.640 and then put it into a frame, 00:05:48.640 --> 00:05:50.760 And then I've always just thought of them as like 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.660 similar to like how a community  of some sort might work. 00:05:56.883 --> 00:05:59.160 In some areas, people are getting  along great, having a good time. 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.707 Then some have tension, so it's  like, loosely like a community. 00:06:21.887 --> 00:06:24.320 But when I went into art school,  I wanted to know everything. 00:06:24.320 --> 00:06:26.680 I took installation classes,  I took performance classes, 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.200 I was like, I wanted to know  this thing art like so badly, 00:06:29.200 --> 00:06:30.663 I wanted to know what the hell it was. 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:34.040 I could never knock art school. 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.080 I learned so much about the process of making 00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:41.280 and documentating, and voila,  here's art, we have art, yay! 00:06:41.280 --> 00:06:42.642 Everyone applaud, we have art. 00:06:46.640 --> 00:06:49.400 I felt like I was an art school jock of some sort. 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:52.000 If it was art that I was going to  do, I was going to be good at it. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.622 There was no way that I was  going to be lousy at it. 00:06:53.840 --> 00:06:56.299 [ train whistle ] 00:07:15.640 --> 00:07:21.800 –Oh, my god, we gotta go, because there's  a guy back there and I don't know him. 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.240 –All right, we should probably go. 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.680 The thing that really  fascinated me about the trains 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.680 is that it's very much about folklore. 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.120 You see a huge variety of markings. 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:33.480 Just really, really old ones, 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.935 and there's so much history there. 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:38.080 It is something that's been happening 00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:40.000 ever since trains were around. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:42.440 And it is still happening today,  it's happening in the present, 00:07:42.440 --> 00:07:46.480 and yet when you look at  it, it looks like folklore. 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.560 He originally wrote it in '85, 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.680 then he came past it again in '91, 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.440 and then he came past it again in '92. 00:07:54.440 --> 00:07:59.440 So every time he goes past  it, you update your signature. 00:08:00.520 --> 00:08:03.570 You're learning about someone  without ever even knowing the person. 00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:08.570 There's legalities about writing on someone  else's property, too, which I always enjoy. 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.840 But there's a lot of people that are just like working-class people that write on trains, and... 00:08:14.736 --> 00:08:16.093 KILGALLEN: and they don't know why they do it. 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.845 I don't know why we do it,  it's like you just do it. 00:08:24.520 --> 00:08:26.920 –We haven't got kicked out or anything,  I was expecting to get kicked out. 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:28.160 –I know. 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:29.440 –That's a good one. 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:32.621 –Barry – 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:33.938 –What, I almost hit it. 00:08:35.358 --> 00:08:36.560 –Barry, don't -- 00:08:37.783 --> 00:08:39.307 –Look, I have one on there. 00:08:56.520 --> 00:08:58.320 Whenever I do stuff indoors, I always feel like 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:02.640 I have to do 110% more stuff  outdoors to keep, like, 00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:04.040 my street credibility. 00:09:06.680 --> 00:09:08.640 It's probably the audience I'm most worried about, 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:12.080 like graffiti kids that are  really doing stuff are like... 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.400 and I'm always wary of how I sit in the eye 00:09:14.400 --> 00:09:17.200 of like a 12- or 13-year-old kid, like, 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:18.960 what do they think of what I've done, 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:20.440 how I fit in their scheme of things, 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:22.566 or, "Oh, that guy sold out." 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.640 KILGALLEN: The more and more work I do in a gallery, 00:09:37.640 --> 00:09:41.012 then it's really easy to  get separated from people. 00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:44.240 You want to be able to sell your work, 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:47.640 and you want to be able to live off your work. 00:09:47.640 --> 00:09:53.560 And that world that involves the art  buying and selling is a very closed world, 00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:56.764 and sometimes you forget about  the other world around you. 00:10:00.888 --> 00:10:03.408 MCGEE: It has to do with money, you know? 00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:05.120 Who has access to space. 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.680 And when I feel like the access to space is  like cut off for like the general public, 00:10:10.280 --> 00:10:12.866 that makes me want to do stuff on  the street even that much more. 00:10:19.560 --> 00:10:25.342 The stuff in the galleries is just, it's  already, the art crowd, it's the same people. 00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:30.440 Sometimes I feel like if I do something indoors, 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.240 the circle of people that see things  is getting smaller and smaller, 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.118 whereas if I'm outdoors, it's  open to anyone to look at. 00:10:41.400 --> 00:10:44.360 But doing stuff indoors is  definitely, it's fun to do. 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:45.760 I like going to sites and just, 00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:47.880 they pretty much let me run around wild and free 00:10:47.880 --> 00:10:50.120 for like a month, and then I stop and that's it. 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:51.816 You know, without supervision, so... 00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:55.792 there's a sense of freedom involved, too. 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.000 Up to about, like, '98, I always  painted directly on the walls, 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:03.480 then people would come, see the piece, 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:06.120 and the only thing that would be kind of left 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:12.760 is the idea of the piece, but I did something  at the Walker, they skinned the walls. 00:11:12.760 --> 00:11:17.973 And it was part my idea, my decision,  too, so I could have something to keep. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.400 It's a contradiction, too, for me. 00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:27.200 I definitely sell stuff to make a living. 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.640 I'm a working artist now, I mean, I always  like to think that I'm trying to keep it 00:11:31.640 --> 00:11:32.640 as pure as possible, 00:11:32.640 --> 00:11:35.606 But what I do is definitely tainted, too.