1 00:00:27,206 --> 00:00:32,082 KILGALLEN: I like things that are handmade,  and I like to see people's hand in the world. 2 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Any day in the mission in San Francisco, 3 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,200 you can see a hand-painted  sign that is kind of funky. 4 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:45,912 And maybe that person, if they had money,  they would prefer to have a neon sign. 5 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,320 But I don't prefer that. 6 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,234 I think it's beautiful what they  did, in that they did it themselves. 7 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,413 That's what I find beautiful. 8 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,130 –Um, I'm an artist and I just  like those figures a lot. 9 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,272 –Do you know who painted them? 10 00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:03,779 –No, no. –They're pretty awesome. 11 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,040 Often in the city, when there's  so many things to look at, 12 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,160 and so many things going on,  you don't see those things, 13 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:12,434 but I see those things. 14 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,680 MCGEE: There's a lot of talk of how damaging graffiti is, 15 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,800 and this destruction that happens with graffiti, 16 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,280 but there's actually no damage at all, 17 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,201 it can be like painted over with a roller. 18 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,080 They're just like commercial jingles, like, 19 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,640 that are stuck in my head, and to me, 20 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,674 that's like, that's damage to me. 21 00:01:59,662 --> 00:02:04,603 KILGALLEN: The public looks at graffiti  and sees garbage, and sees ugliness. 22 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,400 And I always wonder why they  don't look at the billboards, 23 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,170 especially around San Francisco,  there's millions, everywhere, 24 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000 isn't that garbage? 25 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,220 That's like mind garbage. 26 00:02:16,706 --> 00:02:19,920 MCGEE: The billboards are very subversive,  and advertising is very subversive, 27 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:23,438 whereas, like most of the stuff that's done  on the street is very close to the truth. 28 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,001 It's like the highest art there is. 29 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,166 I've done graffiti for a hell of a long time. 30 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,720 There's never been like a time when I was like, 31 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,259 oh, I'm like 25 now, I'm  going to stop doing graffiti. 32 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,960 You know, it wasn't like a planned thing, like, 33 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,690 oh, I do art, now I'm gonna surf  and now I'm gonna do graffiti. 34 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,156 It's just everything, I've always done it. 35 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,960 KILGALLEN: And most of the things that inspire my artwork are 36 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:15,000 folk art of some kind, American folk art. 37 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,289 I'm also very interested in Indian folk art. 38 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,880 When I first started painting seriously,  I used to look at a lot of typography 39 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,760 from, like, the 16th century, 40 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,360 and the color of the inks that they used, 41 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,661 which were normally black  and red, and sometimes blue. 42 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Having a background in doing  printmaking and doing letterpress, 43 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,560 I became very interested in  images that were flat and graphic. 44 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,946 And my painting still today is very flat. 45 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,400 In my own work, I do everything  by hand, I don't project. 46 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,920 I do spend a lot of time  trying to perfect my line work 47 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,421 and my hand, but my hand will always  be imperfect because it's human. 48 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,200 If I'm doing really big letters and I  spend a lot of time going over the line 49 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,080 and over the line trying to make it straight, 50 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,000 I'll never be able to make it straight. 51 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,520 From a distance, it might look  straight, but when you get close up, 52 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,770 you can always see the line waver. 53 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,414 And I think that's, that's where the beauty is. 54 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,141 MCGEE: I bring in every little damn thing on the street. 55 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:15,760 Some stuff makes it, some doesn't. 56 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,680 Some things just get walked  on for years and years, 57 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,122 and then magically, it works in a frame. 58 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,680 I like that process of a thing discarded 59 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,920 then picked up and then intercepted, 60 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,520 and then I do something on  it and then it goes into 61 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,640 a fine collector's home, probably. 62 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,604 And, once again, it's cherished. 63 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:43,120 The frame clusters of drawings are usually  little scenarios that have developed 64 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,800 and that I have seen on the street, and  then go home and just draw it, or whatnot, 65 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,640 and then put it into a frame, 66 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,760 And then I've always just thought of them as like 67 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,660 similar to like how a community  of some sort might work. 68 00:05:56,883 --> 00:05:59,160 In some areas, people are getting  along great, having a good time. 69 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,707 Then some have tension, so it's  like, loosely like a community. 70 00:06:21,887 --> 00:06:24,320 But when I went into art school,  I wanted to know everything. 71 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,680 I took installation classes,  I took performance classes, 72 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,200 I was like, I wanted to know  this thing art like so badly, 73 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,663 I wanted to know what the hell it was. 74 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,040 I could never knock art school. 75 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,080 I learned so much about the process of making 76 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,280 and documentating, and voila,  here's art, we have art, yay! 77 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:42,642 Everyone applaud, we have art. 78 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,400 I felt like I was an art school jock of some sort. 79 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,000 If it was art that I was going to  do, I was going to be good at it. 80 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,622 There was no way that I was  going to be lousy at it. 81 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:56,299 [ train whistle ] 82 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,800 –Oh, my god, we gotta go, because there's  a guy back there and I don't know him. 83 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,240 –All right, we should probably go. 84 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,680 The thing that really  fascinated me about the trains 85 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,680 is that it's very much about folklore. 86 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,120 You see a huge variety of markings. 87 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Just really, really old ones, 88 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,935 and there's so much history there. 89 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,080 It is something that's been happening 90 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,000 ever since trains were around. 91 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,440 And it is still happening today,  it's happening in the present, 92 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,480 and yet when you look at  it, it looks like folklore. 93 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,560 He originally wrote it in '85, 94 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,680 then he came past it again in '91, 95 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,440 and then he came past it again in '92. 96 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,440 So every time he goes past  it, you update your signature. 97 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,570 You're learning about someone  without ever even knowing the person. 98 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,570 There's legalities about writing on someone  else's property, too, which I always enjoy. 99 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,840 But there's a lot of people that are just like working-class people that write on trains, and... 100 00:08:14,736 --> 00:08:16,093 KILGALLEN: and they don't know why they do it. 101 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,845 I don't know why we do it,  it's like you just do it. 102 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,920 –We haven't got kicked out or anything,  I was expecting to get kicked out. 103 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,160 –I know. 104 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,440 –That's a good one. 105 00:08:31,559 --> 00:08:32,621 –Barry – 106 00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:33,938 –What, I almost hit it. 107 00:08:35,358 --> 00:08:36,560 –Barry, don't -- 108 00:08:37,783 --> 00:08:39,307 –Look, I have one on there. 109 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,320 Whenever I do stuff indoors, I always feel like 110 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,640 I have to do 110% more stuff  outdoors to keep, like, 111 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,040 my street credibility. 112 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:08,640 It's probably the audience I'm most worried about, 113 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,080 like graffiti kids that are  really doing stuff are like... 114 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,400 and I'm always wary of how I sit in the eye 115 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,200 of like a 12- or 13-year-old kid, like, 116 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:18,960 what do they think of what I've done, 117 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,440 how I fit in their scheme of things, 118 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,566 or, "Oh, that guy sold out." 119 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,640 KILGALLEN: The more and more work I do in a gallery, 120 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,012 then it's really easy to  get separated from people. 121 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,240 You want to be able to sell your work, 122 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,640 and you want to be able to live off your work. 123 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:53,560 And that world that involves the art  buying and selling is a very closed world, 124 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,764 and sometimes you forget about  the other world around you. 125 00:10:00,888 --> 00:10:03,408 MCGEE: It has to do with money, you know? 126 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,120 Who has access to space. 127 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,680 And when I feel like the access to space is  like cut off for like the general public, 128 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,866 that makes me want to do stuff on  the street even that much more. 129 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:25,342 The stuff in the galleries is just, it's  already, the art crowd, it's the same people. 130 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,440 Sometimes I feel like if I do something indoors, 131 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,240 the circle of people that see things  is getting smaller and smaller, 132 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,118 whereas if I'm outdoors, it's  open to anyone to look at. 133 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,360 But doing stuff indoors is  definitely, it's fun to do. 134 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,760 I like going to sites and just, 135 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,880 they pretty much let me run around wild and free 136 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,120 for like a month, and then I stop and that's it. 137 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,816 You know, without supervision, so... 138 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,792 there's a sense of freedom involved, too. 139 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,000 Up to about, like, '98, I always  painted directly on the walls, 140 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,480 then people would come, see the piece, 141 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,120 and the only thing that would be kind of left 142 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:12,760 is the idea of the piece, but I did something  at the Walker, they skinned the walls. 143 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,973 And it was part my idea, my decision,  too, so I could have something to keep. 144 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,400 It's a contradiction, too, for me. 145 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,200 I definitely sell stuff to make a living. 146 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,640 I'm a working artist now, I mean, I always  like to think that I'm trying to keep it 147 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:32,640 as pure as possible, 148 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,606 But what I do is definitely tainted, too.