0:00:27.206,0:00:32.082
KILGALLEN: I like things that are handmade, [br]and I like to see people's hand in the world.

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Any day in the mission in San Francisco,

0:00:35.640,0:00:40.200
you can see a hand-painted [br]sign that is kind of funky.

0:00:40.200,0:00:45.912
And maybe that person, if they had money, [br]they would prefer to have a neon sign.

0:00:46.480,0:00:48.320
But I don't prefer that.

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I think it's beautiful what they [br]did, in that they did it themselves.

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That's what I find beautiful.

0:00:55.920,0:00:59.130
–Um, I'm an artist and I just [br]like those figures a lot.

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–Do you know who painted them?

0:01:02.190,0:01:03.779
–No, no.[br]–They're pretty awesome.

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Often in the city, when there's [br]so many things to look at,

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and so many things going on, [br]you don't see those things,

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but I see those things.

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MCGEE: There's a lot of talk of how damaging graffiti is,

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and this destruction that happens with graffiti,

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but there's actually no damage at all,

0:01:46.280,0:01:48.201
it can be like painted over with a roller.

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They're just like commercial jingles, like,

0:01:54.080,0:01:55.640
that are stuck in my head, and to me,

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that's like, that's damage to me.

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KILGALLEN: The public looks at graffiti [br]and sees garbage, and sees ugliness.

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And I always wonder why they [br]don't look at the billboards,

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especially around San Francisco, [br]there's millions, everywhere,

0:02:12.000,0:02:13.000
isn't that garbage?

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That's like mind garbage.

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MCGEE: The billboards are very subversive, [br]and advertising is very subversive,

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whereas, like most of the stuff that's done [br]on the street is very close to the truth.

0:02:24.640,0:02:27.001
It's like the highest art there is.

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I've done graffiti for a hell of a long time.

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There's never been like a time when I was like,

0:02:33.720,0:02:37.259
oh, I'm like 25 now, I'm [br]going to stop doing graffiti.

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You know, it wasn't like a planned thing, like,

0:02:39.960,0:02:43.690
oh, I do art, now I'm gonna surf [br]and now I'm gonna do graffiti.

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It's just everything, I've always done it.

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KILGALLEN: And most of the things that inspire my artwork are

0:03:09.960,0:03:15.000
folk art of some kind, American folk art.

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I'm also very interested in Indian folk art.

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When I first started painting seriously, [br]I used to look at a lot of typography

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from, like, the 16th century,

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and the color of the inks that they used,

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which were normally black [br]and red, and sometimes blue.

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Having a background in doing [br]printmaking and doing letterpress,

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I became very interested in [br]images that were flat and graphic.

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And my painting still today is very flat.

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In my own work, I do everything [br]by hand, I don't project.

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I do spend a lot of time [br]trying to perfect my line work

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and my hand, but my hand will always [br]be imperfect because it's human.

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If I'm doing really big letters and I [br]spend a lot of time going over the line

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and over the line trying to make it straight,

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I'll never be able to make it straight.

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From a distance, it might look [br]straight, but when you get close up,

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you can always see the line waver.

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And I think that's, that's where the beauty is.

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MCGEE: I bring in every little damn thing on the street.

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Some stuff makes it, some doesn't.

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Some things just get walked [br]on for years and years,

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and then magically, it works in a frame.

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I like that process of a thing discarded

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then picked up and then intercepted,

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and then I do something on [br]it and then it goes into

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a fine collector's home, probably.

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And, once again, it's cherished.

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The frame clusters of drawings are usually [br]little scenarios that have developed

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and that I have seen on the street, and [br]then go home and just draw it, or whatnot,

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and then put it into a frame,

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And then I've always just thought of them as like

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similar to like how a community [br]of some sort might work.

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In some areas, people are getting [br]along great, having a good time.

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Then some have tension, so it's [br]like, loosely like a community.

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But when I went into art school, [br]I wanted to know everything.

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I took installation classes, [br]I took performance classes,

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I was like, I wanted to know [br]this thing art like so badly,

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I wanted to know what the hell it was.

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I could never knock art school.

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I learned so much about the process of making

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and documentating, and voila, [br]here's art, we have art, yay!

0:06:41.280,0:06:42.642
Everyone applaud, we have art.

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I felt like I was an art school jock of some sort.

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If it was art that I was going to [br]do, I was going to be good at it.

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There was no way that I was [br]going to be lousy at it.

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[ train whistle ]

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–Oh, my god, we gotta go, because there's [br]a guy back there and I don't know him.

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–All right, we should probably go.

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The thing that really [br]fascinated me about the trains

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is that it's very much about folklore.

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You see a huge variety of markings.

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Just really, really old ones,

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and there's so much history there.

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It is something that's been happening

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ever since trains were around.

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And it is still happening today, [br]it's happening in the present,

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and yet when you look at [br]it, it looks like folklore.

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He originally wrote it in '85,

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then he came past it again in '91,

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and then he came past it again in '92.

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So every time he goes past [br]it, you update your signature.

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You're learning about someone [br]without ever even knowing the person.

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There's legalities about writing on someone [br]else's property, too, which I always enjoy.

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But there's a lot of people that are just like[br]working-class people that write on trains, and...

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KILGALLEN: and they don't know why they do it.

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I don't know why we do it, [br]it's like you just do it.

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–We haven't got kicked out or anything, [br]I was expecting to get kicked out.

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–I know.

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–That's a good one.

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–Barry –

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–What, I almost hit it.

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–Barry, don't --

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–Look, I have one on there.

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Whenever I do stuff indoors, I always feel like

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I have to do 110% more stuff [br]outdoors to keep, like,

0:09:02.640,0:09:04.040
my street credibility.

0:09:06.680,0:09:08.640
It's probably the audience I'm most worried about,

0:09:08.640,0:09:12.080
like graffiti kids that are [br]really doing stuff are like...

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and I'm always wary of how I sit in the eye

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of like a 12- or 13-year-old kid, like,

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what do they think of what I've done,

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how I fit in their scheme of things,

0:09:20.440,0:09:22.566
or, "Oh, that guy sold out."

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KILGALLEN: The more and more work I do in a gallery,

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then it's really easy to [br]get separated from people.

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You want to be able to sell your work,

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and you want to be able to live off your work.

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And that world that involves the art [br]buying and selling is a very closed world,

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and sometimes you forget about [br]the other world around you.

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MCGEE: It has to do with money, you know?

0:10:03.800,0:10:05.120
Who has access to space.

0:10:05.120,0:10:09.680
And when I feel like the access to space is [br]like cut off for like the general public,

0:10:10.280,0:10:12.866
that makes me want to do stuff on [br]the street even that much more.

0:10:19.560,0:10:25.342
The stuff in the galleries is just, it's [br]already, the art crowd, it's the same people.

0:10:28.160,0:10:30.440
Sometimes I feel like if I do something indoors,

0:10:30.440,0:10:33.240
the circle of people that see things [br]is getting smaller and smaller,

0:10:33.240,0:10:37.118
whereas if I'm outdoors, it's [br]open to anyone to look at.

0:10:41.400,0:10:44.360
But doing stuff indoors is [br]definitely, it's fun to do.

0:10:44.360,0:10:45.760
I like going to sites and just,

0:10:45.760,0:10:47.880
they pretty much let me run around wild and free

0:10:47.880,0:10:50.120
for like a month, and then I stop and that's it.

0:10:50.120,0:10:51.816
You know, without supervision, so...

0:10:53.520,0:10:55.792
there's a sense of freedom involved, too.

0:10:58.960,0:11:02.000
Up to about, like, '98, I always [br]painted directly on the walls,

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then people would come, see the piece,

0:11:03.480,0:11:06.120
and the only thing that would be kind of left

0:11:06.120,0:11:12.760
is the idea of the piece, but I did something [br]at the Walker, they skinned the walls.

0:11:12.760,0:11:17.973
And it was part my idea, my decision, [br]too, so I could have something to keep.

0:11:22.960,0:11:25.400
It's a contradiction, too, for me.

0:11:25.400,0:11:27.200
I definitely sell stuff to make a living.

0:11:28.440,0:11:31.640
I'm a working artist now, I mean, I always [br]like to think that I'm trying to keep it

0:11:31.640,0:11:32.640
as pure as possible,

0:11:32.640,0:11:35.606
But what I do is definitely tainted, too.