WEBVTT 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 ... wanted to be able to use 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Thunderbird and GnuPG together with Tor, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and so we thought: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 oh, it would be really easy, I bet, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to configure Thunderbird to work with Tor 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - hah - so a new Free software project was born. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's a really simple thing, but basically 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's just a package that hooks it all together. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So a lot of people were using Thunderbird 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and TorBirdy, and GnuPG, and Tor, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and Debian, together for email, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 combined with Riseup as an email service. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So it's a literally a real peer to peer, Free software driven set of things, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 actually, that made it possible. NOTE Paragraph 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: So one thing I never understood about this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 process was exactly how the documents were handled, and maybe that's because nobody 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 wants to say, but, you know, did you leave them on a server somewhere and download 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 them, hand them over to people, and who took what where, and how do you... 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in case I need to do something really dangerous with a load of documents, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 what's the best way of doing it? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [laughter] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: Hmm! 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [audience member]: It's a good thing this isn't being streamed. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm sorry, what? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There was a voice from god, what did she say? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [audience]: I said good we aren't streaming tonight. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Oh yeah, so hello to all of our friends 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in domestic and international surveillance services. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, so I won't answer your question, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but since you asked the question, it's my turn to talk. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So what I would say is that... 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 if you want to do clandestine activities 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that you fear for your life for, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you need to really think about the situation that you're in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 very carefully. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so a big part of this is operational security 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and a big part of that is compartmentalization. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So certain people had access to certain things, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but maybe they couldn't decrypt them, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and certain things were moved around, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that's on a need to know basis, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and those people who knew, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is not me - I don't know anything, I don't know what you're talking about. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Those people knew, and then you know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it'll go with them to their grave. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So if you're interested in being the next Edward Snowden, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you need to do your homework 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in finding people that will be able to do the other part of it, let's say. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But just in general, I mean 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 compartmentalization is key, right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So it's not just for AppArmor profiles. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So you need to think about what you want to do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I mean a big part of this is to consider that the network itself 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is the enemy, even though it is useful for communicating. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So all the metadata that exists on the network 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 could have tipped people off, could have caused 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this whole thing to fall apart. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It really is amazing, I feel like you know 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 two and half, three years ago, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 when you talk about Free software, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and you talk about the idea of Free software, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and you talk about issues relating to autonomy and privacy, and security 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you have a really different reception now than you did then, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that's really what it took 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to turn the world half a degree, or something, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or a quarter of a degree or something. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I'm not going to tell you about detailed plans for conspiracy, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I highly encourage you to read about South African history, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in particular the history of Umkhonto we Sizwe. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They are the clandestine communications group for MK, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or rather the operation who lay inside of MK, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is Umkhonto we Sizwe, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they are sort of with the African National Congress, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and those people have published so many books about the revolutionary activities 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to overthrow the apartheid state. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 If you read these books, especially the book "Operation Vula" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and "Armed and Dangerous" by Ronnie Kasrils 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they give you some idea about what you need to do 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is to compartmentalize, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how to find people to do various tasks, specific tasks, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how to work on building trust with each other, what that looks like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how to identify political targets, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how you might use things like communications technology 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to change the political topic on, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and the discussion in general. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I think the best way to learn about these things is to study previous people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who have tried to do that kind of stuff. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And the NSA is not the apartheid regime of South Africa, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but there are still lessons to be learned there, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so if you really want to know the answer to that, also Che Guevara's manual 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on guerilla warfare is very interesting, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and there's a lot of other books like that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'd be happy to talk about it with you later. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I have nothing to do with anything that we may or may not have done. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [laughter] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: Do you think there is a chance that things may get better 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for example I know that publicly, some programs were not extended 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I don't know what is happening in the background 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so maybe it's the same thing but they are pretending that it's not 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 How do you see this? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: Well I think a couple of things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In general I think what happened, not just with this movie but with all of these things 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is that in inspired hope, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and the hope is very important, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but hope is not a strategy for survival, or for building alternatives, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so what it has also done, is that it has allowed us to raise the profile 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of the things which actually do make it better. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 For example ridding ourselves of the chains of proprietary software 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is something that's a serious discussion with people that wouldn't have previously 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 talked about Free software because they don't care about liberty, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they care about security. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And even though I think those are really simliar things, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 previously they just thought we were just Free software hippies, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in tie-dye shirts 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and while that may be true on the weekends and evenings 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or with Bdale every day [laughter] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think that actually does make it better 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And it also changes the dialogue, in the sense that it's no longer reasonable 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to pretend that mass surveillance and surveillance issues don't matter, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because if you really go down the rabbit-hole 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of thinking about what the security services are trying to do 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it becomes obvious that we want to encrypt everything all the time 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to beat selector-based surveillance and dragnet-based surveillance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It doesn't matter if something is authenticated 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You could still trigger some action to take place 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with these kinds of surveillance machines 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that could for example drone strike someone, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and so it raises that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that gives me a lot of hope too, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because people understand the root of the problem, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or the root of many problems 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and the root of some violence in the world, actually. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so it helps us to reduce that violence 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by getting people to acknowledge that it's real 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and also that they care about it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that we care about each other. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So that really gives me a lot of hope, and part of that is Snowden 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and part of that is the documents 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but the other part of it is that.. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I don't want to blow it up and make it sound like we did something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like a big deal, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but in a sense, Laura, Glen, myself and a number of other people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 were really not sure we would ever be able to travel home to our country 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that we wouldn't be arrested. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I actually haven't been home in over two and half years, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 well, two years and three months or something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I went out on a small business trip that was supposed to last two weeks 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and then this happened 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I've been hear ever since. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's a really long, crazy trip. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But the point is that that's what was necessary to make some of these changes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and eventually it will turn around 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I will be able to go home, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and Laura and Glen will be able to travel to the US again. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Obviously, Julian is still stuck in the Ecuadorian embassy 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Sarah lives in exile in Berlin, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I live in exile in Berlin, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And Ed is in Moscow 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So we're not finished with some of these things 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and it's also possible that we are, the set of people I mentioned, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the state we're in, will stay that way forever. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But what matters is that the rest of the world 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 can actually move on and fix some of these problems, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I have a lot of hope about that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I see a lot of change, that's the really big part. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like I see the reproducible build stuff that Holger and Lunar are working on. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 People really understand the root reason for needing to do that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and actually seems quite reasonable to people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who would previously have expended energy against it, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in support of it, so I think that's really good. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And there's a lot of other hopeful things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I would try and be as uplifting as possible. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's not just the rum! 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: Near the end of the film we saw something about another source. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I may have been missing some news or something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I don't remember anything about that being public. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Do you know what happened to them? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: As far as I know any other source that was mentioned in the film 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is still anonymous, and they're still free. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm not exactly sure because I was not involved in that part 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I also saw the end of the film 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I've seen a bunch of other reporting which wasn't attributed to anyone in particular 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So the good news... there's an old slogan from the Dutch hacker community, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "Someone you trust is one of us, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and the leak is higher up in the chain of command than you" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I feel like that might be true again, hopefully. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think that guy has a question as well. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: Part of the problem initially was that encryption software 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was not so easy to use, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I think part of the challenge for everyone 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was to improve on that situation to make it better 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so I'm asking you if you've observed any change and to the rest of the room 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 have we done anything to improve on that? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: I definitely think that there is a lot of free software 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that makes encryption easier to use, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 though not always on free platforms, which really is heart-breaking. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 For example Moxie Marlinspike has done a really good job 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with Signal, Textsecure and Redphone 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and making end-to-end, encrypted calling, texting, sexting, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and whatever apps, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 sext-secure is what I think it's nicknamed 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I'm very impressed by that, and it works really well 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and it's something which in the last two years 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 if you have a cell-phone, which I don't recommend 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but if you have a cell-phone, and you put in everyone's phone number, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a lot of people that I would classify as non-technical people, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that don't care about Free software as a hobby or as a passion 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or as a profession. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You see their names in those systems 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 often more than some of the Free software people, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that's really impressive to me, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I think there's been a huge shift just generally about those sorts of things 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 also about social responsibility, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or people understand they have a responsibility to other people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to encrypt communications, and not to put people in harm's way 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by sending unsafe stuff over unsafe communication lines. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I think in my personal view it's better. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But the original problem wasn't actually that the encryption was hard to use. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think the main problem is people didn't understand the reason 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that it needed to be done 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they believed the lie that is targetted versus mass surveillance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And there's a big lie, and the lie is that there is such a thing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as targeted surveillance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In the modern era, most so-called targetted surveillance actually happens 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 through mass surveillance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They gather everything up, and then they look through the thing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they've already seized. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And of course there are targetted, focussed attacks. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But the main thing is that the abuse of surveillance often happens 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on an individual basis. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It also has a societal cost. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think a lot of people really understand that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's probably because I also live in Germany now for the last two years 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I feel that German society in particular is extremely aware 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of these abuses in the modern world 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they have a historical context that allows them to talk about it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with the rest of the world, where the world doesn't downplay it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So this is how other people relate to Germany 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 not just about Germans relate to each other. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that has also been really good for just meeting regular people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who really care about it, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and who really want to do things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So people's parents email me, and are like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "I want to protect my children, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 what's the best way to use crypto with them?" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You know, things like that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I didn't every receive emails like that in the past 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that's to me is uplifting and very positive. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: A quick organisational question. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Right now we're live-streaming the Q&A. Are you comfortable with that? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: I don't think in the last three years I've ever had a moment 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that wasn't being recorded. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [laughter, applause] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: If you're fine with it, moving on... 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: That's fine, just don't do it when I'm trying to sleep. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: I was wondering why Laura and you ended up in Germany 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because what you said about people in Germany might be true 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I'm really ashamed about my Government and how they dealt with ???? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they are doing nothing for this. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: The reason that we ended up in Germany 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is that I'd been attending Chaos Computer Club events 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for many years 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and there are bunch of people that are part of the Chaos Computer Club 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who are really supportive, and good people, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who have a stable base, and an infrastructure. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The German hacker scene has this phenomenon which is that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's a part of society. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So there are people in the CCC who will talk with the constitutional court 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for example, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that creates a much more stable society 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and those people were willing to help us. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They were willing to hold footage, to hold encrypted data. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They were willing to help modify hardware. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There was a huge base of support where people, even if they had fear, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they did stuff anyway. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that support went back a long time. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so we knew that it would be safe to store footage for the film here. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In Berlin, not in Heidelberg, but here in Germany. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we knew that, of course, there were people that would be helpful. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In the US there's a much bigger culture of fear. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 People are afraid of having their houses raided by the police, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 where there's lots of detainments at the borders, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 where there's lots of speculative arrests, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 journalists that are jailed, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so the situation was not to say that Germany was perfect. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I revealed in Der Speigel with three other journalists that Merkel was spied on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by the NSA. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And it's clear that the Germany government was complicit 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with some of this surveillance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But in a sort of pyramid of surveillance there's a sort of colonialism 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that takes place. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that the NSA and GCHQ are at the top. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And the Germans are little bit below that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The thing is that there's not a lot you do about that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so even though we revealed this about Merkel, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's not clear what she should do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's not clear what anyone should do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But one thing that was clear was that if they wanted to break into our houses 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they would do it in a way that would cost them a lot politically. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It would be very public. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The last time someone raided someone working with Der Speigel 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was in 1962 during the Speigel affair, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and some ministers were kicked out. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You may have seen recently the Landersverrat thing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with Netzpolitik. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The charges against them now have been dropped. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 That would never happen in the United States. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We would not be safe. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I still, for my investigative journalism, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and my work with Wikileaks, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and my work with the Tor project, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I wouldn't even go back to the US, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because there's no chance that if they wanted to do something to me 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that I would have any constitutional liberties, I think, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and the same is true of Snowden. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You just won't get that fair trial. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we thought at least here we would have ground to stand and fight on. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And it's exactly what happened, and we won. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [question]: This is also about the fear stuff that you talk about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is in the very old days we used to put red words in the end of every message 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to make sure that it would be hard to find the actual subversive message 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 among all the noise. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And you can think about the same thing here. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Should we build our systems so that everything gets encrypted all the time? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [Jacob]: So I have a lot of radical suggestions for what to do, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I'm going to talk about them tomorrow in the keynote mostly. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But to give you an example, if you install Debian, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you can give someone the ability to log into the machine 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 over a Tor hidden service for free. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You get a free .onion when you add two lines to a Tor configuration file. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We should make encryption not only easy to use but also out of the box 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 we should have it possible to have end-to-end reachability and connectivity, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and we should reduce the total amount of metadata, to make it harder for people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who want to break the law, that want to break into computers. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We should solve the problem of adversarial versus non-adversarial forensics 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so we can verify our systems with open hardware and Free software together. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And there's a lot to be done, but the main thing to do is to recognise 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that if you have the ability to upload to Debian, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there are literally intelligence agencies that would like those keys. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we have a great responsiblity to humanity as Debian developers 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to do the right thing: to build open systems, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to build them in a way where users don't need to understand this stuff. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There are a lot of people in the world that will never see this film. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we can solve the problems that this film describes largely with Free software. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we can do that without them knowing, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they will be safe for us having done that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And if we can do that, the world will be a better place, I think. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I think the world is a better place because of the efforts that were 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 already done in that area, that made this possible. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The Tails project made it so that a bunch of people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who were good at investigative journalism, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but absolutely terrible with computers, were able to pull this off. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that is entirely the product, in my opinion, of Free software. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And a little bit of Laura and Glen, but I'd say a lot of Free software.