9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
... wanted to be able to use

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Thunderbird and GnuPG together with Tor,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and so we thought:

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
oh, it would be really easy, I bet,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to configure Thunderbird to work with Tor

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
- hah - so a new Free software project[br]was born.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It's a really simple thing, but basically

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
it's just a package[br]that hooks it all together.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So a lot of people were using Thunderbird

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and TorBirdy, and GnuPG, and Tor,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and Debian, together for email,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
combined with Riseup as an email service.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So it's a literally a real peer to peer,[br]Free software driven set of things,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
actually, that made it possible.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[question]:[br]So one thing I never understood about this

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
process was exactly how the documents were[br]handled, and maybe that's because nobody

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
wants to say, but, you know, did you leave[br]them on a server somewhere and download

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
them, hand them over to people, and who[br]took what where, and how do you...

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in case I need to do something really[br]dangerous with a load of documents,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
what's the best way of doing it?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[laughter]

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[Jacob]: Hmm!

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[audience member]: It's a good thing[br]this isn't being streamed.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I'm sorry, what?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
There was a voice from god,[br]what did she say?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[audience]:[br]I said good we aren't streaming tonight.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Oh yeah, so hello to all of our friends[br]

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in domestic and international[br]surveillance services.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Well, so I won't answer your question,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but since you asked the question,[br]it's my turn to talk.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So what I would say is that...

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
if you want to do clandestine activities

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that you fear for your life for,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
you need to really think about[br]the situation that you're in

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
very carefully.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And so a big part of this is[br]operational security

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and a big part of that is[br]compartmentalization.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So certain people had access[br]to certain things,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but maybe they couldn't decrypt them,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and certain things were moved around,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and that's on a need to know basis,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and those people who knew,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
which is not me - I don't know anything,[br]I don't know what you're talking about.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Those people knew, and then you know,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
it'll go with them to their grave.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So if you're interested in being the next[br]Edward Snowden,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
you need to do your homework

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in finding people that will be able to do[br]the other part of it, let's say.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
But just in general, I mean

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
compartmentalization is key, right.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So it's not just for AppArmor profiles.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So you need to think about[br]what you want to do.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I mean a big part of this[br]is to consider that the network itself

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
is the enemy, even though it is useful[br]for communicating.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So all the metadata that exists[br]on the network

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
could have tipped people off,[br]could have caused

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
this whole thing to fall apart.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It really is amazing, I feel like you know

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
two and half, three years ago,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
when you talk about Free software,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and you talk about the idea of[br]Free software,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and you talk about issues relating to[br]autonomy and privacy, and security

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
you have a really different reception now[br]than you did then,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and that's really what it took

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to turn the world half a degree,[br]or something,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or a quarter of a degree or something.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So I'm not going to tell you about[br]detailed plans for conspiracy,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but I highly encourage you to read about[br]South African history,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in particular the history of[br]Umkhonto we Sizwe.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
They are the clandestine communications[br]group for MK,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or rather the operation who lay inside of MK,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
which is Umkhonto we Sizwe,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and they are sort of with[br]the African National Congress,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and those people have published so many[br]books about the revolutionary activities

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to overthrow the apartheid state.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
If you read these books, especially[br]the book "Operation Vula"

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and "Armed and Dangerous"[br]by Ronnie Kasrils

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
they give you some idea about[br]what you need to do

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
which is to compartmentalize,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
how to find people to do various tasks,[br]specific tasks,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
how to work on building trust[br]with each other, what that looks like,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
how to identify political targets,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
how you might use things[br]like communications technology

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to change the political topic on,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and the discussion in general.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I think the best way to learn about[br]these things is to study previous people

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
who have tried to do that kind of stuff.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And the NSA is not the apartheid regime of[br]South Africa,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but there are still lessons[br]to be learned there,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
so if you really want to know the answer[br]to that, also Che Guevara's manual

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
on guerilla warfare is very interesting,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and there's a lot of other books like that.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I'd be happy to talk about it[br]with you later.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I have nothing to do with anything[br]that we may or may not have done.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[laughter]

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[question]: Do you think there is a chance[br]that things may get better

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
for example I know that publicly,[br]some programs were not extended

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but I don't know what is happening[br]in the background

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
so maybe it's the same thing[br]but they are pretending that it's not

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
How do you see this?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[Jacob]: Well I think a couple of things.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
In general I think what happened, not just[br]with this movie but with all of these things

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
is that in inspired hope,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and the hope is very important,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but hope is not a strategy for survival,[br]or for building alternatives,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
so what it has also done, is that it has[br]allowed us to raise the profile

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
of the things which actually do[br]make it better.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
For example ridding ourselves of the[br]chains of proprietary software

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
is something that's a serious discussion[br]with people that wouldn't have previously

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
talked about Free software[br]because they don't care about liberty,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
they care about security.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And even though I think those are[br]really simliar things,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
previously they just thought we were just[br]Free software hippies,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in tie-dye shirts

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and while that may be true on the weekends[br]and evenings

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or with Bdale every day[br][laughter]

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I think that actually does make it better

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And it also changes the dialogue, in[br]the sense that it's no longer reasonable

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to pretend that mass surveillance and[br]surveillance issues don't matter,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
because if you really go down the[br]rabbit-hole

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
of thinking about what the security[br]services are trying to do

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
it becomes obvious that we want to encrypt[br]everything all the time

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to beat selector-based surveillance[br]and dragnet-based surveillance.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It doesn't matter if something is authenticated

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
You could still trigger some action[br]to take place

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
with these kinds of surveillance machines

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that could for example drone[br]strike someone,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and so it raises that.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And that gives me a lot of hope too,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
because people understand the root[br]of the problem,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or the root of many problems

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and the root of some violence[br]in the world, actually.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And so it helps us to reduce that[br]violence

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
by getting people to acknowledge[br]that it's real

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and also that they care about it

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and that we care about each other.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So that really gives me a lot of hope,[br]and part of that is Snowden

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and part of that is the documents

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but the other part of it is that..

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I don't want to blow it up and make it[br]sound like we did something

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
like a big deal,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but in a sense, Laura, Glen, myself[br]and a number of other people

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
were really not sure we would ever be able[br]to travel home to our country

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that we wouldn't be arrested.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I actually haven't been home[br]in over two and half years,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
well, two years and three months[br]or something

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I went out on a small business trip[br]that was supposed to last two weeks

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and then this happened

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I've been hear ever since.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It's a really long, crazy trip.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
But the point is that that's what was[br]necessary to make some of these changes

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and eventually it will turn around

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I will be able to go home,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and Laura and Glen will be able to travel[br]to the US again.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Obviously, Julian is still stuck in the[br]Ecuadorian embassy

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Sarah lives in exile in Berlin,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I live in exile in Berlin,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And Ed is in Moscow

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So we're not finished with some of[br]these things

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and it's also possible that we are,[br]the set of people I mentioned,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
the state we're in, will stay that way[br]forever.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
But what matters is that the rest[br]of the world

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
can actually move on and fix some of[br]these problems,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I have a lot of hope about that.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I see a lot of change, that's the[br]really big part.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Like I see the reproducible build stuff[br]that Holger and Lunar are working on.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
People really understand the root reason[br]for needing to do that

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and actually seems quite reasonable[br]to people

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
who would previously have expended energy[br]against it,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
in support of it, so I think that's[br]really good.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And there's a lot of other hopeful things.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So I would try and be as uplifting[br]as possible.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It's not just the rum!

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[question]: Near the end of the film[br]we saw something about another source.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I may have been missing some news[br]or something

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but I don't remember anything about that[br]being public.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
Do you know what happened to them?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[Jacob]: As far as I know any other[br]source that was mentioned in the film

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
is still anonymous, and they're still free.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I'm not exactly sure because I was not[br]involved in that part

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but I also saw the end of the film

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I've seen a bunch of other reporting[br]which wasn't attributed to anyone in particular

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So the good news... there's an old slogan[br]from the Dutch hacker community, right?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
"Someone you trust is one of us,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and the leak is higher up in the chain of[br]command than you"

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I feel like that might be true again,[br]hopefully.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I think that guy has a question as well.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[question]: Part of the problem initially[br]was that encryption software

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
was not so easy to use, right?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I think part of the challenge[br]for everyone

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
was to improve on that situation[br]to make it better

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
so I'm asking you if you've observed[br]any change and to the rest of the room

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
have we done anything to improve on that?

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
[Jacob]: I definitely think that there is[br]a lot of free software

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that makes encryption easier to use,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
though not always on free platforms,[br]which is heart-breaking.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
For example Moxie Marlinspike has done[br]a really good job

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
with Signal, Textsecure and Redphone

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and making end-to-end, encrypted[br]calling, texting, sexting,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and whatever apps,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
sext-secure is what I think it's nicknamed

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I'm very impressed by that,[br]and it works really well

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and it's something which in the[br]last two years

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
if you have a cell-phone,[br]which I don't recommend

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but if you have a cell-phone,[br]and you put in everyone's phone number,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
a lot of people that I was classify as[br]non-technical,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that don't care about Free software[br]as a hobby or as a passion

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or as a profession.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
You see their names in those systems

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
often more than some of the[br]Free software people,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and that's really impressive to me

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and I think there's been a huge shift[br]just generally about those sorts of things

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
also about social responsibility

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
or people understand they have a[br]responsibility to other people

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
to encrypt communications,[br]and not to put people in harm's way

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
by sending unsafe stuff over[br]unsafe communication lines

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So I think in my personal view it's better.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
But the original problem wasn't actually[br]that the encryption was hard to use.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I think the main problem is people didn't[br]understand the reason

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
that it needed to be done

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and they believed the lie that is[br]targetted versus mass surveillance

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And there's a big lie, and the lie is[br]that there is such a thing

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
as targeted surveillance.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
In the modern era, most so-called[br]targetted surveillance actually happens

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
through mass surveillance.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
They gather everything up, and then they[br]look through the thing

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
they've already seized.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And of course there are targetted,[br]focussed attacks.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
But the main thing is that the abuse of[br]surveillance often happens

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
on an individual basis

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It also has a societal cost.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
I think a lot of people really[br]understand that.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
It's probably because I also live in[br]Germany now for the last two years

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
but I feel that German society in[br]particular is extremely aware

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
of these abuses in the modern world

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and they have a historical context[br]that allows them to talk about it

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
with the rest of the world, where the[br]rest of the world doesn't downplay it.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So this is how other people relate to[br]Germany

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
not just about Germans relate to[br]each other.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And that has also been really good[br]for just meeting regular people

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
who really care about it,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and who really want to do things.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
So people's parents email me,[br]and are like

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
"I want to protect my children,

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
what's the best way to use crypto[br]with them"

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
You know, things like that.

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
And I didn't every receive emails like[br]that in the past

9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000
and that's to me is uplifting[br]and very positive.