What is another concern or fear
you might have for this generation
of young believers that is coming up?
Jesse: Another concern that I have
for this generation coming up
is what I call the eclipsing of the Gospel;
the eclipsing of Jesus Christ.
Meaning, whether it's the individual
or the church finding its identity,
its hope, its joy, its fellowship,
its unity in something other than
Jesus Christ and the Gospel.
And it's a very subtle shift
that happens without many people
noticing that it happens.
So often, so many people will come
to the church,
and they'll begin to discuss with them
about they're looking for a church.
And so often, brother, there are so many things
people are looking for in the church -
these byproducts of the Gospel;
these byproducts of Jesus Christ,
which are good things,
but they become the source
of their identity,
they become the source of their fellowship;
they're what they're looking for in a church,
and they don't ask questions about Jesus Christ or the Gospel,
and that's a great concern.
James: Maybe you could give some examples there.
What are things you've seen people
looking for too much
instead of the essentials of the Gospel?
Jesse: I'll start with this.
How about the whole family integration thought?
Just this last week,
a couple of young people came into the church,
seemed like passionate,
excited people.
And the very first comments and questions
were about family integration,
family worship.
Brother, our church worships together in that sense.
And my home - we practice family worship.
But when those things become
the mark and identity of a church,
or the mark and identity of the believer,
and the evidence you can see
that this is happening
is this is what you talk about most.
This is what you're passionate about most.
And this is how you base your fellowship,
even within the church -
those who affirm you in these truths,
those who practice in conscience
the same things that you do
whether it's homeschooling
or how you do family worship.
And the moment those things
become the foundation of our relationship
or the identity of the church,
and Christ is no longer that foundation,
inevitably, it will crumble.
Question: What are the biggest dangers
confronting the church today?
The reformed church specifically?
Jesse: It's kind of getting back to that
whole eclipsing of Jesus Christ.
And I'm going to preach on this here
on Saturday.
A great concern I have,
especially in reformed circles:
all genuine Christians love God,
they love truth, they love doctrine.
But in reformed circles,
it's like we're known for our doctrine.
Those are the doctrinally focused, sound people.
We study through Revelation 2 -
the letter to the church at Ephesus.
And if you've ever read what Jesus commends
about that church,
they're a doctrinally sound church.
They toil in truth.
They defend truth.
They expose false teachers.
They can't stand evil.
They can't stand the Nicolaitans
and they're commended for all of that,
but then Jesus says to them,
"But I have this against you,
you've left your first love."
Now, you might say,
well, that was a love for Jesus Christ
and I would agree with you.
But here's the concern I have:
I think our love for Jesus Christ
is most manifested for its true sense
in our love for His people.
In other words, I love Jesus.
Well, how do I know I love Jesus?
Well, it's evident in the way that I love
and treat His people, the church.
And what that church was warned about
is what we might call loveless orthodoxy.
So the concern I have for the reformed church
is that we can have all of our doctrinal positions right;
we can debate them left and right,
but we lack love -
a love for God and a love for His people.
And it's a subtle shift again.
People will say how can I have
all my doctrine right and still struggle?
And throughout the Bible, we see examples
of churches that have their doctrine right,
but they struggle with love towards God
and love towards the church.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13,
if I have all understanding,
all knowledge, but I have not love...
So the notion is I can have
some of these things
and be lacking in love.
And I think one of the things we need to do
in the reformed church
is mark loveless orthodoxy
as sin that needs to be repented of.
It's not something, oh, we should do better in.
It's sin to be repented of.
The warning Jesus gave to that church
is, "Repent and return,
or I'll take away your lampstand."
It's as serious as it gets.
So this eclipsing of Jesus Christ,
finding identity in something other than Christ,
or believing we're good because we have our doctrine right,
but if we lack love,
we're nothing.
Here's what I struggle with so much in this, James,
is that when I preach on this subject -
and I've preached on it, I think,
probably ten times between men's meetings
and the service and different things -
ten times in the last year.
And I keep getting accused of:
well, you just are minimizing doctrine.
You're saying that parts of God's Word are not important.
And I'm like, listen, I've given my life
to the study and preaching and teaching of doctrine.
But I've come to realize by God's grace,
you can be right in your doctrine
and absolutely wrong.
And I don't think people realize that.
You can have the right doctrine
and be nothing.
And so what's the mark of maturity?
In the reformed circle?
Having all your doctrine right.
What's the mark of maturity in Scripture?
Love.
We begin to look at people as positions,
where our conversations are not anymore:
"how are you doing, brother?"
"What's going on at your workplace?"
"How is your marriage going?"
It is, "where are you at in this position?"
And brother, they're not people anymore.
We're just viewing people as positions
to win over to my camp.
Be careful.
One of the sermons I preached on
was Romans 14 in this.
And I'll mention it some in the sermon,
because this is not only, James,
in the doctrines that we hold to,
but it's also in the living out
of our doctrines and convictions.
And what I find so interesting about Romans 14 -
if you say what does Romans 14 about?
Oh, it's about Christian liberty and conscience.
No, it's not.
It's about living out love in the middle
of a church that has differences.
And it deals with Christian liberty and conscience,
but how do you deal with someone
who has a different understanding?
You know what I love about Romans 14
more than anything?
Is Paul acknowledges:
this brother has it wrong.
And he doesn't really correct him.
His greater concern is this:
Are we welcoming one another?
Now think of that.
This brother - he says he has a wrong understanding.
He is weak in faith,
and it's leading him to make decisions
that are wrong.
And Paul acknowledges it.
But he doesn't say:
Go over there and correct your brother to the right doctrine.
He says: Are you welcoming him?
Are you loving him
as Christ has welcomed you?
And that doesn't mean we're indifferent to doctrine
or we don't talk about it.
But there's a spirit that if it's not there
you can have all the right doctrine in the world
and it means nothing.
So, Lord, help us, brother.
Question: After studying and preaching
your recent series on, "Maintaining Unity
in the Midst of Diversity,"
what do you look back on
and say most impacted you
from your studies?
Jesse: I think the most impactful study
that I got from the study there personally
was I thought I was a much more loving person.
And I realized that the way Paul
understands love is that we should not
measure our love based on
how we get along and respond with those
who agree with us,
but rather it's with those who disagree
or offend us.
So if we surround ourselves with people
who just affirm us,
and who agree on every point of doctrine,
hold to all the same convictions,
and have the same passions that we do,
and we sit around and just affirm each other,
you might look at that and say,
look how loving we are.
And I'm not questioning whether that's
genuine love or not.
What I'm saying is though
the true reality or depth, you could say,
of your love for people,
is measured in how you respond
with those who do not agree;
with those who hold to different convictions;
with those who have offended you.
It is how you respond in those circumstances
and those situations that reveals
the depth of our love.
And I'll go further than that.
I think it reveals the depth of our love for Jesus.
I think sometimes we can believe,
oh, I love Jesus, it's just these immature Christians
who don't see it the way I do -
they I struggle with.
But as I read through Scripture,
I think of 1 John 3.
How can you love God
whom you have not seen
when you can't even love your brother
who you do see?
In other words, this:
Our love for Christ is always displayed
in our love for the church;
in our love for others.
So our vertical love is always manifested horizontally.
Or you could say the depth of it.
And again, to take what Paul said then,
and the reality of your love horizontally
is not with those who agree.
It's with those who disagree.
So, I went into that thinking,
I'm a pretty loving guy.
And I walked away from it realizing,
I have so much room to grow in my love
as I look how I respond to those
who disagree or offend me.
Another thing I learned from that
is I've watched people
when they have disagreements
maybe in doctrine or convictions
or how they live out their convictions -
how they begin to treat
other genuine Christians, other believers.
And it's almost like they create subgroups
or you might say,
second-class Christians.
And I want to remind us all
that there are no second-class Christians.
That Jesus Christ identifies
with the genuine believer who holds
to the lowest view of doctrine;
the struggling Christian.
He identifies with them.
And I'm really struggling in my own life
and in the church and the church abroad
with the response I'm seeing
where people will say things like this:
"Yes, we agree in the Gospel
and in Jesus Christ,
but in this other area of doctrine,
we don't see eye-to-eye,
and therefore I can't fellowship with you anymore."
And that's that eclipsing of Jesus again.
Brother, if you agree in Jesus Christ
and the Gospel,
I'm not minimizing all the other doctrines
in the Bible - they're important;
they're God's Word -
but we have so much in common
in Christ and the Gospel,
and then you begin to maximize
these other areas.
I struggle to even use the term, because people get so angry at me.
Non-salvific doctrine.
But listen, there are other doctrines
that you can be wrong in and still be saved.
I think Dr. Mohler did a great job
in helping in this.
He called it spiritual triage.
And he wrote, listen, we don't treat
a skinned knee like we do
a gunshot wound to the chest.
And we have to have a doctrinal triage
at some level, so that if you and I
can't agree on some level of eschatology,
but we see eye-to-eye on Jesus Christ,
justified by grace through faith alone,
you're my brother.
We can be in fellowship.
We may not be able to pastor together,
but we can be in fellowship,
and I need to treat you with the same love
that I would treat anybody else.
And brother, I'm not seeing that.
I'm seeing divisions after divisions after divisions.
And it's concerning.
James: And why do you think the devil wants that?
Jesse: Well, when the church is divided,
something other than Jesus becomes
the basis of our unity.
Something other than Jesus becomes
the basis of our fellowship.
And the moment that happens
and it's not Christ as the foundation anymore,
the inevitability is we crumble.