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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:09.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:09.33,0:00:14.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Welcome Jeff with a warm applause\Non stage. He works for Tactical Tech
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.18,0:00:19.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.13,0:00:22.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and will talk about a bias in\Ndata and racial profiling
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.86,0:00:25.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany compared with\Nthe UK. It’s your stage!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:25.87,0:00:30.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: Right. Thank you! Yeah, okay!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.09,0:00:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My presentation is called\N“Profiling (In)justice –
Dialogue: 0,0:00:33.32,0:00:36.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– Disaggregating Data by Race\Nand Ethnicity to Monitor
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.43,0:00:41.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Evaluate Discriminatory Policing”.\NIn terms of my background:
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.63,0:00:46.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’ve done research, doing\Nmostly quantitative research
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.78,0:00:50.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the issues of racial\Ndiscrimination for a long time.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.73,0:00:55.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In New York, at the Center for\NConstitutional Rights I was working on
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.96,0:00:59.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at trends and levels of
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.80,0:01:04.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,use-of-force by police against civilians,\Nand also on stop-and-search
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.21,0:01:08.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against civilians. And then more\Nrecently for the last 18 months or so
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.60,0:01:12.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’ve been working as a research\Nconsultant at Tactical Tech,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.33,0:01:16.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at issues of data politics and\Nprivacy. So this is kind of like a merger
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.36,0:01:21.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of these 2 areas. In terms of what this\Npresentation is gonna be about:
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.96,0:01:26.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s gonna be 3 takeaways. First, that
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.90,0:01:29.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’re dealing with the issues of privacy\Nand also [freedom from] discrimination.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.59,0:01:34.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And both are fundamental human rights.\NBut there’s tension between the two.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.87,0:01:40.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And important questions to think about\Nare: “When do privacy concerns exceed
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.88,0:01:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or take precedence over those of\Ndiscrimination, or vice versa?”
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.49,0:01:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Two: That data is political, both in the\Ncollection and aggregation of data;
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.40,0:01:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also in terms of having the\Ncategories of being created.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.93,0:02:00.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, three: That data ethics are\Na complex thing, that things aren’t
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.55,0:02:05.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so black-and-white all of the time.\NSo what is racial profiling?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.09,0:02:08.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The term originates from the US.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:08.91,0:02:14.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it refers to when a police officer\Nsuspects, stops, questions, arrests or…
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.51,0:02:17.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, or… at other stages (?)\Nof the communal justice system
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.08,0:02:21.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of their perceived\Nrace or ethnicity. After 9/11
Dialogue: 0,0:02:21.04,0:02:26.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it also refers to the profiling of Muslims\Nor people perceived to be Middle Eastern.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.61,0:02:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in German there is no direct translation,\Nso the term ‘Racial Profiling’ (quotes)
Dialogue: 0,0:02:31.52,0:02:36.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is used a lot in parliamentary hearings\Nand also in court documents.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.86,0:02:41.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the problem that we’re gonna talk\Nabout is that because of the lack of data
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.79,0:02:46.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany there’s no empirical\Nevidence to monitor and evaluate
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.31,0:02:50.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trends in discrimination.\NThis is creating problems
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.73,0:02:55.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for both civil society in terms of looking\Nat these levels and trends over time,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.29,0:02:58.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also from an individual perspective\Nit becomes difficult for people
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.20,0:03:02.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to file complaints. In Germany the only\Nway to file a complaint officially
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.26,0:03:07.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is to go to the police department,\Nwhich introduces power dynamics,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.100,0:03:11.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, challenges and additional\Nbarriers. But also if you’re an individual
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.35,0:03:16.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have to show that there’s a trend,\Nright? That you are part of another,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.33,0:03:19.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a long standing story. And without this\Ndata it becomes difficult to prove
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.76,0:03:24.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that that’s happening.\NSo what we’re needing,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.05,0:03:27.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or what some people are calling\Nfor, is having this data
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.16,0:03:32.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at a state and a sort of national level.\NAnd this ratio that I’m putting here,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.85,0:03:36.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,referring to policing, is looking at the\Nrate at which people are stopped
Dialogue: 0,0:03:36.02,0:03:41.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over the census figure of the\Ndemographic share of the population.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.63,0:03:44.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you really need both; the first\Nbeing on the police side and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:44.90,0:03:49.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the second being on the census. So\Nthat, you know, if you only have one,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.59,0:03:52.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you only have the rate at which police\Nwere stopping people then you actually
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.17,0:03:55.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can’t see if this is discriminatory or\Nnot. And if you only have the census
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.17,0:03:59.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you can’t see that, either.\NSo you really need both.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.72,0:04:03.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The European Commission, the International\NLabour Organisation and academics are all
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.79,0:04:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,calling for these… the creation of\Nstandardized and comparable data sets.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.55,0:04:13.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I’m not gonna read these out,\Nbut I can go back to them later
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.94,0:04:18.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you’re interested. But what I’m gonna\Ntalk about is comparing the UK
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.76,0:04:23.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to that of Germany. So in Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.29,0:04:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 1983 there was a census; or there\Nwas an attempt to making a census.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.13,0:04:31.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But due to wide-spread resentment\Nand disenfranchisement,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.97,0:04:37.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fears of surveillance and lack of\Ntrust in state data collection
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.19,0:04:42.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was a big boycott. Or people\Ndeliberately filled in forms wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:42.49,0:04:45.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In some cases there were even\Nbombings of statistical offices.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.28,0:04:51.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or people spilled coffee over census\Nforms to try to deliberately ruin them.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.22,0:04:55.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As a couple of other presentations at the\Nconference have already said
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.53,0:04:59.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was found to be an\Nunconstitutional census.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:59.25,0:05:01.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because of the way that\Nthey were framing it.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.99,0:05:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Comparing the census to\Nhousehold registrations.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.52,0:05:14.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the census was delayed until 1987,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:14.90,0:05:19.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was the most recent census until\Nthe most recent European one in 2011.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.93,0:05:23.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This Supreme Court decision\Nwas really important
Dialogue: 0,0:05:23.26,0:05:28.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it established this right\Nfor informational self-determination.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.81,0:05:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very important for privacy\Nin terms of Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.04,0:05:37.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, until today. So what kinds\Nof information is being collected?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:37.71,0:05:40.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In Germany we have pretty standard kind\Nof demographic information things
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.69,0:05:45.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like gender, age, income, religion. But\Nwhat I want to talk about in particular
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.20,0:05:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is country origin and country citizenship.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.20,0:05:53.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which are used to determine a person\Nof migration background. And
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.66,0:05:56.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this term ‘person of migration background’\Ngenerally refers to whether you,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.86,0:06:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your parents or your grandparents\N– the first, second or third generation –
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.22,0:06:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come from a migrant background. Right, and
Dialogue: 0,0:06:03.96,0:06:10.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this term is used oftentimes as a proxy\Nfor ethnic or for racial diversity in Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.00,0:06:15.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is problematic because\Nyou’re using citizenship as a proxy
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.05,0:06:20.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for looking at racial and ethnic identity.\NAnd it also ignores the experiences
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.08,0:06:23.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and identities, the self identities\Nof people who don’t fall into
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.45,0:06:26.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this ‘first, second or third generation’,\Nright? People who may identify
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.87,0:06:30.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as Black German, let’s say. But\Nof fourth, fifth or sixth generation.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.69,0:06:34.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’re just ignored in this\Ndata set. So they fall out.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.71,0:06:38.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, it’s difficult to measure these at\Na national level because each state
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.16,0:06:41.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has different definitions of what\Nconstitutes a migrant background.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.95,0:06:44.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we don’t have this at a national level\Nbut also within states there’s no way
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.79,0:06:49.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to compare them. Of course, not\Nhaving that data doesn’t mean
Dialogue: 0,0:06:49.37,0:06:53.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there’s no racism, right?\NAnd so in 2005 e.g. we see
Dialogue: 0,0:06:53.84,0:06:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that neo-Nazi incidents have increased 25%
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.18,0:07:03.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– the NSU case coming out but still\Ngoing on in court proceedings.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.32,0:07:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The xenophobic attacks but also the way\Nin which these crimes were investigated
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.02,0:07:13.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– at a state and at a federal level –\Nand the way that it was botched,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.67,0:07:17.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in addition to showing that\Nracism now in general
Dialogue: 0,0:07:17.90,0:07:22.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is at a higher rate than it has been for\Nthe last 30 years. And much more recently
Dialogue: 0,0:07:22.23,0:07:26.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seeing the rise in arson attacks on\Nrefugee centers. There’s been
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.71,0:07:30.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over 200 attacks this year so far.\NYou know, all of these showed
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.36,0:07:34.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that not collecting this data doesn’t\Nmean that we don’t have a problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.22,0:07:40.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the UK by comparison: In 1981,\Nthere was the Brixton riots,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.83,0:07:45.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an area of London.\NAnd these arose largely
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.67,0:07:50.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of resentment towards\Nthe way that police were
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.32,0:07:53.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,carrying out what they called ‘Sus Laws’.\NOr people being able to be stopped
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.55,0:07:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on suspicion of committing\Na crime, carrying drugs,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.08,0:08:03.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having a weapon etc. and so forth.\NAnd so in the aftermath of the riot
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.65,0:08:07.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they came up with this report called the\N‘Scarman report’. And this found
Dialogue: 0,0:08:07.55,0:08:11.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is much disproportionality in\Nthe way that Police were carrying out
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.15,0:08:16.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their stop-and-search procedures.\NSo for the first time this required…
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.28,0:08:20.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or one of the reforms that was\Ninstituted was that UK Police started
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.13,0:08:26.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have to collect data on race\Nor ethnicity during the stops.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.75,0:08:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When they stop a person they have to start\Ncollecting this data. And then you have
Dialogue: 0,0:08:29.60,0:08:34.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a baseline that’s being established.\NAround the same time in the UK
Dialogue: 0,0:08:34.63,0:08:38.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have the 1981 census.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.73,0:08:41.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in society they were having\Na lot of debates around
Dialogue: 0,0:08:41.81,0:08:45.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether or not they wanted to have this…
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.90,0:08:49.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collecting this baseline national level\N(?) figure, because we need these 2 things
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.97,0:08:56.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for this ratio in order to monitor and\Nevaluate levels of discrimination.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:56.26,0:09:00.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, you know, there was\Na lot of opposition to this.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:00.24,0:09:04.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And many found it to be (quote)\N“morally and politically objectionable”.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.83,0:09:08.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But not for the reason you’d think.\NPeople found objections to it
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.57,0:09:13.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not because of asking these question,\Nbut because of the way that the question
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.23,0:09:17.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was phrased, with the categories that\Nwere being used. And they did surveys
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.19,0:09:21.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between ’75 and about ’95, and found that
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.40,0:09:26.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,among marginalized communities\Nand in minority ethnicity groups
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.53,0:09:31.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was actually a lot of support\Nfor collecting this kind of data.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.33,0:09:35.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They just wanted to have it phrased to\Nbe different. And so ’91 they started
Dialogue: 0,0:09:35.25,0:09:40.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to collect the data. They put this\N‘race question’ in. And here I have,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.36,0:09:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 2011 – the most recent census –\Nsome of the kinds of categories
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.60,0:09:50.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they wanted to also include.\NAnd they’ve changed over time.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.05,0:09:54.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So e.g. like ‘White Irish people’ felt\Nthat they also were discriminated against.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:54.33,0:09:58.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they experienced things differently\Nthan white British people, e.g.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.93,0:10:03.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So having things broken down\Nfurther would be helpful for them
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.23,0:10:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of highlighting discrimination\Nthat each specific demographic faces.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:09.72,0:10:14.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So around that time ’91, ’93 we\Nhave the murder of Stephen Lawrence
Dialogue: 0,0:10:14.38,0:10:19.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an unprovoked racist attack. Nobody\Nwas ever convicted of that. But
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.13,0:10:22.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what’s important is that we have this\N‘Macpherson report’ that came out.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:22.53,0:10:27.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it developed a lot of recommendations,\N70, and most of them were adopted.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.29,0:10:31.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One: to be collecting this at a national\Nlevel, and to be comparing these.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.53,0:10:35.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 2011 they stopped mandating\Nthat you had to collect this data,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.20,0:10:38.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at a national level. So none of the\Ndata from then going forward
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.71,0:10:42.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can actually be trusted. Some\Nforces continued to do it,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.66,0:10:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but not all of them. So you can’t actually\Ncompare them between forces.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.27,0:10:50.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the same year we have these London\Nriots. The Guardian and LSE put out
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.25,0:10:54.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a report called “Reading the Riots”. Where\Nthey did a lot of interviews with people
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.19,0:10:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who participated. And they found that\Nmost of the people who participated
Dialogue: 0,0:10:58.43,0:11:03.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had feelings of… that they\Nwere mistreated by Police.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.57,0:11:07.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or that there is racial discrimination\Nin terms of the policing practices.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.82,0:11:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That they weren’t being\Ntreated with respect.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.76,0:11:16.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So to put some data to that:\NBefore this was removed
Dialogue: 0,0:11:16.71,0:11:22.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there… it was 2 different types of\Nstops in the UK. Those PACE stops,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:22.22,0:11:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you stops with reasonable suspicion.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.77,0:11:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And among that you have e.g. black people\Nstopped at 7 times the rate of white people.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.38,0:11:34.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Asian people – Asian referring to (?)(?)(?)(?)\NSoutheast Asian in the UK –
Dialogue: 0,0:11:34.69,0:11:39.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at twice the rate. And ‘Section 60 stops’:\Nwhere you don’t have to actually have
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.43,0:11:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reasonable suspicion. And when you don’t\Nneed to have that you have much, much
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.40,0:11:51.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,higher rates. 26.6 times the rate of white\Npeople black people are being stopped at.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.84,0:11:54.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the State Department even coming\Nout and they’re saying: “There’s
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.07,0:11:59.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no relationship between criminality\Nand race… criminality and ethnicity”.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.73,0:12:02.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact it’s like: If people are being\Nstopped at these rates it’s…
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.45,0:12:06.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s in the wrong direction. You have\Nwhite males in particular who are
Dialogue: 0,0:12:06.67,0:12:10.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fending at higher rates. Who are using\Ndrugs at a higher rate. Who are
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.02,0:12:15.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possessing weapons at a higher rate.\NBut that’s not who’s being stopped.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.06,0:12:19.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a connection though between\Nrace and ethnicity and poverty.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.58,0:12:23.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you can see here, they call it like\NBAME groups, or ‘Black, Asian and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:23.04,0:12:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Minority Ethnicity’. And you can see\Nthat among like wealth and assets:
Dialogue: 0,0:12:27.22,0:12:30.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s much, much lower for non-white\Nhouseholds. Unemployment rates
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.71,0:12:36.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are much higher as well.\NIncome is much lower.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.15,0:12:39.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I like making maps. And I think\Nmaps are really cool. ’Cause you can
Dialogue: 0,0:12:39.81,0:12:44.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tell stories when you overlay a lot\Nof data with it. So on the left
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.27,0:12:50.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I put by different borough in London\Nwhere people are actually being stopped.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:50.70,0:12:54.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Per 1,000 people in 2012.\NAnd on the right I put
Dialogue: 0,0:12:54.53,0:12:58.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the crime is actually occurring.\NAnd this is coming from UK Police.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:58.79,0:13:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so you can see that where people\Nare being stopped isn’t exactly
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.01,0:13:05.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the crime is actually happening.\NAnd if you’re seeing this stop-and-search
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.80,0:13:11.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a crime preventing tactic then we\Nhave to question why this isn’t lining up.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.07,0:13:15.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Going back to this ratio:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.45,0:13:19.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier I mentioned like – having the rate\Nat which one group is being stopped
Dialogue: 0,0:13:19.46,0:13:22.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over that share of the total population.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.99,0:13:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we can take it a step further\Nand we can compare that to…
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.00,0:13:29.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between different demographic groups.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:29.03,0:13:33.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when using census figures\Ncombined with police figures,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.61,0:13:38.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can do things like looking on the left.\NI mean this disproportionality ratio,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.50,0:13:41.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the rate at which black groups\Nas a share are stopped
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.26,0:13:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,versus the total population, compared\Nto white groups are stopped.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:45.84,0:13:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you can see the darker areas\Nis where you have a higher rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.92,0:13:56.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So when we’re talking about those\N‘7 times, or 26 times more likely’
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.23,0:13:59.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these are those areas that we’re\Ntalking about. And so the darker areas:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.96,0:14:05.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can see that when compared to poverty,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.91,0:14:09.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are stopped… there’s\Ngreater disproportionality ratios
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.31,0:14:13.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in wealthier areas than there are in\Npoorer areas. And this is kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.03,0:14:16.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a way, you could say, almost\Nof perceiving people of colour
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.99,0:14:24.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as others who shouldn’t belong in\Nthese areas. It’s also… you can…
Dialogue: 0,0:14:24.51,0:14:27.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when combined with other census\Ninformation you can see that you have
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.82,0:14:32.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more discrimination, you have more\Ndisparities in areas that are more white
Dialogue: 0,0:14:32.07,0:14:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also less racially diverse.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.24,0:14:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is kind of all on the\Nsame kind of a message.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.07,0:14:44.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if it works fine? – It doesn’t.\NUK Police is saying that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.23,0:14:49.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at most they have a 6%\Narrest rate of all stops.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.50,0:14:52.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And arrests are not conviction rates.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.97,0:14:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Looking for weapons we have like less\Nthan 1% of a positive search rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.32,0:15:03.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the European Human Rights\NCommission e.g. has called for reform
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.35,0:15:06.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of these practices. The UN has called\Nfor reform of these practices.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.100,0:15:12.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they instituted like\Na reform that called for
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.56,0:15:19.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having a 20% arrest quota. And so that\Ncould either go positively or negatively.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.04,0:15:21.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Making a higher quota means that you\Ncould be just arresting more people
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.65,0:15:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you’re stopping. More likely, or\Nhopefully it means that you have
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.44,0:15:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a higher justification or grounds\Nfor stopping a person.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.55,0:15:35.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So these are the kinds of things you can\Ndo in the UK, with these kinds of data.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:35.43,0:15:40.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In Germany, you can’t. But I wanna\Nhighlight there’s this one case
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.08,0:15:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Koblenz in 2010.\NThere was a student of…
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.15,0:15:50.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unnamed, black student who\Nis stopped travelling on train,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.05,0:15:53.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and who was asked to show his ID.\NAnd he refused. And he said: “No,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.31,0:16:01.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’m not gonna do that. This is\Nreminiscent of Nazi era tactics”.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:01.19,0:16:07.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so he was charged with slander.\NAnd he was brought into court.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.51,0:16:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the police officer, when it\Nwas in court, said, (quote):
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.44,0:16:16.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“I approach people that look like\Nforeigners, this is based on skin colour.”
Dialogue: 0,0:16:16.15,0:16:20.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so this is for the first time\Nthe police have admitted that
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.21,0:16:23.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their grounds for doing immigration\Nrelated stops are based on
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.47,0:16:28.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perceived race or ethnicity.\NThe judge sided with the police.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.52,0:16:32.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That this was good justification,\Nlike it was good grounds.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:32.03,0:16:36.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But a higher court ruled\Nthat that wasn’t the case.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.78,0:16:38.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They said: “Yeah,\Nthis is unconstitutional,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.54,0:16:42.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can’t actually do it,\Nit violates the constitution.”
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.34,0:16:46.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No person shall be favoured or disfavoured\Nbecause of sex, parentage, race,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:46.25,0:16:50.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language, homeland, origin,\Nfaith, religious… etc.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:50.74,0:16:54.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just as a side note there’s been a large\Nmovement to remove this term ‘race’
Dialogue: 0,0:16:54.36,0:16:58.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from that part of the constitution\Nsince it’s been put in.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:58.41,0:17:02.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also the court dismissed the slander\Ncharge. They said: “No, this student…”
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.19,0:17:07.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like he’s actually able to critique\Nthe police, you know, in this way.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:07.16,0:17:10.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But after we have the response\Nby the police union,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.66,0:17:14.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the head of the police union\Nat the time, who said (quote):
Dialogue: 0,0:17:14.44,0:17:18.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“The courts deal with the law in\Nan aesthetical pleasing way, but
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.01,0:17:21.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don’t make sure their judgments\Nmatch practical requirements”.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.76,0:17:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so what this means is: we see\Nthat according to the police union
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.40,0:17:28.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– this isn’t official response, but this\Nis from the Police Union itself –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.87,0:17:32.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they say that we need to\Nprofile. We need to do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.92,0:17:38.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or else we aren’t able to do\Nimmigration related stops.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.75,0:17:43.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s crazy. They also…\NI mean, at the same time
Dialogue: 0,0:17:43.47,0:17:46.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they were doing these parliamentary\Nhearings they institute these mandatory
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.84,0:17:50.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inter cultural trainings for police\Nofficers. And these are kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.66,0:17:55.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a one-day training where\Nyou go and learn all about
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.21,0:17:58.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how to deal with people from different\Ncultures. But in some of the interviews
Dialogue: 0,0:17:58.65,0:18:01.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I was doing they said: “Okay, well,\Nthis isn’t an inter cultural issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.91,0:18:05.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a racism issue”.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.73,0:18:08.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People aren’t just coming from other\Nplaces. These are Germans,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:08.25,0:18:11.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these are people who grew up here. These\Nare people who live here. Who know
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.00,0:18:15.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how to speak the language.\NWho were born and raised…
Dialogue: 0,0:18:15.97,0:18:19.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we need to be dealing\Nwith this in a different way.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.26,0:18:23.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,However, in this time, we see that\Nracial profiling has become part of
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.25,0:18:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the national conversation. And so this\Nis the sticker that somebody put up
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.56,0:18:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Berlin, in a U-Bahn.\NIt says: “Attention…,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.04,0:18:36.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we practice RACIAL PROFILING while\Nchecking the validity of your ticket”.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.14,0:18:42.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s not real, but it looks…\NI think it’s kind of cool.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.20,0:18:45.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When they were doing this in\Nthese Bundestag hearings…
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.79,0:18:50.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they released data for Federal Police\Nfor 2013. This is the first time
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.26,0:18:54.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have any data that’s released.\NNo data has ever been released
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.27,0:18:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,based on State Police stops.\NThey say that they’re not actually
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.43,0:19:01.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collecting the information, so they\Ndon’t have anything to show. Of course
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.01,0:19:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the figures that are released from the\NFederal Police are not disaggregated
Dialogue: 0,0:19:03.96,0:19:08.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by race and ethnicity.\NBut what does this actually show?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.00,0:19:17.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, most of the stops,\Nover 85% are border stops.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:17.27,0:19:20.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Border being within ca. 30 km\Nof the German border.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.91,0:19:25.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is actually taking into account\Nmost of the German population.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.54,0:19:29.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if we’re doing these immigration\Nrelated stops then… if we break it down
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.47,0:19:34.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by offense – in the last two, these are\Nthe immigration related offenses
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.43,0:19:38.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people are committing – and\Nwe have less than, at most,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.91,0:19:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe 1% of people who\Nare found to be a positive,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:44.08,0:19:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meaning that they’re found to be violating\Nsome kind of offense. It’s – again,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.10,0:19:53.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s not a conviction, right?\NAnd people can challenge this.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:53.93,0:19:56.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,E.g. like you don’t have to have your\NID on you in all times. You can
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.55,0:20:00.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,present it later, and the\Ncharge can go away.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.47,0:20:05.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if we have such low\Nrates of positive searches
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.08,0:20:10.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then like why is this happening? Why\Ndo we feel that with such good data,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.98,0:20:18.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and knowing, as good researchers,\Nwhy are we continuing this as a practice?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.95,0:20:22.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On one of the other interviews that I was\Ndoing they found that okay well:
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.00,0:20:26.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, we know this is ineffective.\NBut this has the effect of criminalizing
Dialogue: 0,0:20:26.47,0:20:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our communities. And\Nwhether or not this is true
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.55,0:20:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is an argument for why we should maybe\Nhave this kind of data to show that
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.13,0:20:41.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is or is not actually occurring.\NOf course, European Commission
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.22,0:20:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against racism and intolerance and the UN\Nhave said: “Well, even among this at most
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.49,0:20:50.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,1% positive rates these are\Nnot being distributed evenly, and
Dialogue: 0,0:20:50.02,0:20:53.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have people of certain groups that are\Nbeing stopped at rates higher than others,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.70,0:20:58.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly black and other\Nminority ethnicity groups.”
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.87,0:21:05.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, so, going back, why…\Ninto the initial question…
Dialogue: 0,0:21:05.67,0:21:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If we have both freedom from\Ndiscrimination and the right to privacy
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.67,0:21:15.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as these human rights how\Ndo we address this tension?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.93,0:21:18.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how do we make sure that we’re\Nmaking the right decision in terms of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.27,0:21:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which takes precedence? And so I came…\Nor I’ve thought of 3 different reasons
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.44,0:21:27.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why this isn’t happening. The first\Nbeing a series of legal challenges.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.69,0:21:31.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Things that are preventing\Nus from implementing this
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.74,0:21:36.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from a legal basis. And the first…\Nyou know there’s 3 exceptions
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.40,0:21:39.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would allow for this\Ndata to be collected.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:39.24,0:21:43.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(1) The first being if there’s a provision\Nin EU directive that calls for collecting
Dialogue: 0,0:21:43.35,0:21:49.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this kind of a data. And within that\N(2) if you have the consent of the person
Dialogue: 0,0:21:49.70,0:21:53.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the data is subject, let’s say.\NConsent is kind of a difficult thing
Dialogue: 0,0:21:53.77,0:21:57.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we could have a whole conversation\Njust about that on its own.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.97,0:22:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you’re being stopped by police officer\Nto what extent can you actually consent
Dialogue: 0,0:22:00.95,0:22:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the data that’s being collected?\NBut this is put in place
Dialogue: 0,0:22:06.66,0:22:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as one of the mandatory\Nlegal requirements.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.51,0:22:16.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or (3) if there’s an exception in\Nthe hopefully soon to be finalized
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.05,0:22:19.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,EU Data Protection law that\Nallows for collecting data
Dialogue: 0,0:22:19.46,0:22:23.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it’s in the public interest. So you\Ncould argue that we need to be collecting
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.02,0:22:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this data because monitoring\Nand evaluating discrimination
Dialogue: 0,0:22:28.92,0:22:34.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a problem that we need\Nto solve as a society, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.48,0:22:38.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Two: As a lot of people here at\Nthe conference are talking about:
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.81,0:22:42.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s a lot of distrust in terms\Nof collecting data by the state.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.95,0:22:47.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Particularly sensitive data. But I mean\Nas many of us are already aware
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.96,0:22:53.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this data is already being collected. And\Nthis doesn’t mean that we should maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:22:53.52,0:22:57.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collect more just for the\Nsake of collecting data.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.68,0:23:01.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in terms of sensitive data –
Dialogue: 0,0:23:01.46,0:23:04.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’re collecting things also like medical\Ndata. And medical data sometimes
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.99,0:23:08.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is interesting for looking at trends\Nin terms of the illnesses,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:08.72,0:23:14.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and where illnesses spread. And you can\Nlook at this as also possibly a way of
Dialogue: 0,0:23:14.85,0:23:21.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using sensitive data for highlighting\Nand monitoring public problems.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.13,0:23:25.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, (3), we have these\Nchallenges in determining
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.15,0:23:29.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which kind of categories\Nwe should put in place.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.06,0:23:32.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, like the UK, if something\Nwere implemented in Germany
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.89,0:23:37.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel as though this would change over\Ntime as other groups also want their data
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.09,0:23:43.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be collected… or not!
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.49,0:23:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that’s kind of where\NI’m at. I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:48.40,0:23:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are no easy answers in terms of\Nwhether we should or should not do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:51.48,0:23:53.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think that at the very least\Nwe should be starting to have
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.67,0:23:56.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these conversations. And I think that\Nit’s important to start having these
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.50,0:23:59.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conversations with communities\Nthemselves who are being targeted,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.44,0:24:05.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or feel they’re being profiled.\NSo, thank you!
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.06,0:24:16.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:24:16.32,0:24:20.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: It was an awesome talk. I think\Nthere might be 5 minutes for questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:20.42,0:24:24.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are mics over there and over\Nthere. And whoever has a question,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.62,0:24:28.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like in the front rows,\NI can come walk to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.14,0:24:30.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Thank you very much.\NI’m just wondering in terms of…
Dialogue: 0,0:24:30.98,0:24:33.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are you sort of creating this…
Dialogue: 0,0:24:33.37,0:24:34.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: I’m sorry, I can’t hear you…
Dialogue: 0,0:24:34.69,0:24:37.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Sorry, of course… I’m sort\Nof curious in terms of how you’re
Dialogue: 0,0:24:37.26,0:24:40.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creating the disproportionate demographics\Nwhere there will be birth, including
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.99,0:24:44.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other kinds of information, such as sex,\Nage, time of day they’re stopped.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.52,0:24:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because there’s possibly\Nunemployment bias as well…
Dialogue: 0,0:24:46.30,0:24:47.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: I’m sorry, I still can’t\Nactually hear you.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.83,0:24:52.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Sorry… whether it’d be\Nworth including, say, other details
Dialogue: 0,0:24:52.51,0:24:56.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about people, such as their sex, their\Nage, maybe the time of day that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.35,0:25:01.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these stops are happening. As there may\Nbe a bias towards the unemployed.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.88,0:25:06.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If that’s possible, do you think,\Nwith the UK census data?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:06.76,0:25:10.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: So you’re asking: Do I feel as\Nthough we should also be including
Dialogue: 0,0:25:10.35,0:25:15.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other kinds of demographic data?\NYeah. I mean I do, but I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:25:15.09,0:25:18.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I shouldn’t be the one who’s deciding how\Nto implement these programs. And I think
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.60,0:25:23.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we should be speaking with\Nthe communities themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.19,0:25:26.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and having them give their opinion. So if\Nthis is something that those communities
Dialogue: 0,0:25:26.53,0:25:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who feel that they’re being targeted\Nor being discriminated against
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.26,0:25:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to include then I think that they\Nshould be taken into account. But
Dialogue: 0,0:25:33.80,0:25:37.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t know that I should be\Nthe one who’s deciding that.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.47,0:25:40.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Okay, next question\Nover there, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:40.98,0:25:45.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: To this ratio you’ve been\Ntalking about: So you compare
Dialogue: 0,0:25:45.23,0:25:49.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,census data to – as you\Nsaid in the definition
Dialogue: 0,0:25:49.53,0:25:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the first slide –\Nperceived ethnicity or race.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:53.51,0:25:57.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it is an attribution of the\Npersons themselves in a census
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.81,0:26:01.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compared to attribution per\Npolice officers. And those
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.73,0:26:05.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,won’t necessarily match, I’m not\Nsure. So I was just wondering
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.49,0:26:08.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether you could comment on\Nthat a bit. And this is related
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.98,0:26:13.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the second question when it comes\Nabout: We don’t get this data
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.13,0:26:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe from the police, because it’s\Ndifficult for the state to collect it.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.60,0:26:21.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But maybe we could get the data from\Nthose which suffer from discrimination
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.56,0:26:25.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the first place. So do you see any\Npossibility for public platforms…
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.83,0:26:29.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I was reminded of this\Nidea from Egypt, HarassMap (?)
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.93,0:26:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is about sexual harassment\Nof women. That just made visible,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:34.14,0:26:37.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with maps, similar to what you do,\Nactually where this happened,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:37.71,0:26:42.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when this happened, and how this happened.\NBut it’s been the people themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.86,0:26:46.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speaking out and making this\Nheard. And I was wondering
Dialogue: 0,0:26:46.70,0:26:51.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether that may be another source of the\Ndata you would be needing for your work.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:51.60,0:26:55.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: So the first question was talking\Nabout whether we should be using
Dialogue: 0,0:26:55.75,0:26:58.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,‘self-identified’ vs. ‘perceived’,\Nright?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.64,0:27:02.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, I mean they may not line up, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.28,0:27:06.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People can be perceived in a way\Ndifferent than they identify.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.47,0:27:10.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some groups in Germany\Nare calling for both.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.45,0:27:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’re calling for kind of like\Na two-ticket mechanism
Dialogue: 0,0:27:14.50,0:27:19.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you have people who\Nput how they self-identify
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.75,0:27:24.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also how the Police are identifying\Nthem. If we’re looking for patterns
Dialogue: 0,0:27:24.04,0:27:27.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of discrimination then it may actually\Nbe more interesting if we’re looking at
Dialogue: 0,0:27:27.58,0:27:31.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how people are perceived.\NThen, how people self-identify.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:31.58,0:27:35.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think it’s important to take both\Ninto account. And for the second question,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:35.52,0:27:38.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’m sorry, I kind of forgot what that was.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.17,0:27:42.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Like asking the\Npeople themselves for data
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.01,0:27:45.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they suffer from discrimination\Nor [are] being stopped more.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.77,0:27:49.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jeff: Yeah, no, I mean I think that’s a\Ngreat idea. And there was a survey
Dialogue: 0,0:27:49.79,0:27:53.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was actually just done,\Nthat was doing just that!
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.89,0:27:57.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The findings haven’t been released,\Nbut it just finishes up. And it’s looking
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.20,0:28:01.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at different types of experiences of\Ndiscrimination that people are having.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.37,0:28:05.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There’s also organisations like\Nsocial worker organisations
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.60,0:28:08.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have been collecting\Nthis data for a long time.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.73,0:28:14.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Having hundreds and hundreds\Nof cases. Yeah, thanks!
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Dialogue: 0,0:28:19.64,0:28:25.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2016. Join, and help us!{\i0}