WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.200
(intro music)

00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:08.660
My name is Tyler Doggett.

00:00:08.660 --> 00:00:11.331
I teach at the University of Vermont,

00:00:11.331 --> 00:00:14.930
and I'm going to talk about
whether it's morally

00:00:14.930 --> 00:00:18.558
permissible to kill animals for food.

00:00:18.558 --> 00:00:21.048
One thing I'm not going to talk about is

00:00:21.048 --> 00:00:25.520
whether it's morally permissible
to eat animals for food.

00:00:25.520 --> 00:00:27.711
I'm also not going to talk
about whether it's okay,

00:00:27.711 --> 00:00:32.061
morally okay, to buy animals for food.

00:00:32.061 --> 00:00:33.907
What I want to talk about
is whether it's morally

00:00:33.907 --> 00:00:37.883
permissible to kill animals
for food in the first place.

00:00:37.883 --> 00:00:42.041
And we do kill a lot of
animals for food each year.

00:00:42.041 --> 00:00:46.159
Millions of pigs are
killed for food each year.

00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:47.699
Is that permissible?

00:00:47.699 --> 00:00:51.858
Over twenty million pigs were
killed last year for food.

00:00:51.858 --> 00:00:53.444
Is that morally permissible?

00:00:53.444 --> 00:00:58.444
In particular, is it morally
permissible to kill pigs

00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:02.294
for food that we don't need to eat?

00:01:02.294 --> 00:01:03.891
I'm not talking about a situation

00:01:03.891 --> 00:01:06.955
where you're all alone on a desert island,

00:01:06.955 --> 00:01:10.517
and if you don't kill that
pig, you're going to die.

00:01:10.517 --> 00:01:12.359
I'm talking about the
situation where in right now,

00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:14.822
which is we don't have
to kill pigs to eat.

00:01:14.822 --> 00:01:16.914
We could all eat kale sandwiches.

00:01:16.914 --> 00:01:19.203
But instead, because they're delicious,

00:01:19.203 --> 00:01:22.148
we kill millions of pigs each year.

00:01:22.148 --> 00:01:24.215
Is that morally permissible?

00:01:24.215 --> 00:01:25.914
That's what I want to talk about.

00:01:25.914 --> 00:01:28.307
But let's talk about a
different question first.

00:01:28.307 --> 00:01:33.307
Is it morally permissible
to kill people for food?

00:01:33.358 --> 00:01:35.388
Again, I'm not talking about a situation

00:01:35.388 --> 00:01:38.973
like the Donner Party, or situations

00:01:38.973 --> 00:01:43.031
where people crash land
on a deserted island,

00:01:43.031 --> 00:01:45.991
and if they don't eat each
other, they're going to die.

00:01:45.991 --> 00:01:50.273
I mean, would it be
permissible for you to keep

00:01:50.273 --> 00:01:54.095
some stranger in your house
and kill that stranger

00:01:54.095 --> 00:01:57.347
for food, rather
than eat a kale sandwich.

00:01:57.347 --> 00:01:59.351
We don't have to talk about
that question for very long

00:01:59.351 --> 00:02:02.113
That has an easy answer: no!

00:02:02.119 --> 00:02:04.879
It is morally impermissible to kill people

00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.093
for food you don't need to eat.

00:02:07.093 --> 00:02:08.520
So let me ask you this.

00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:13.223
If it is permissible to kill pigs for food

00:02:13.223 --> 00:02:16.904
but not permissible to
kill people for food,

00:02:16.904 --> 00:02:19.631
there must be some difference
between pigs and people

00:02:19.631 --> 00:02:21.383
that explains why it's permissible

00:02:21.383 --> 00:02:24.433
to kill the pig but not the person.

00:02:24.433 --> 00:02:26.441
So what's the difference?

00:02:26.441 --> 00:02:27.848
Here's an idea.

00:02:27.848 --> 00:02:29.702
The pig is a pig.

00:02:29.702 --> 00:02:31.318
The person is a person.

00:02:31.318 --> 00:02:34.406
So this difference, I think, is supposed

00:02:34.406 --> 00:02:38.011
to be a difference in genetic makeup,

00:02:38.011 --> 00:02:40.916
the type of DNA the pig has

00:02:40.916 --> 00:02:43.992
that's different from our genetic makeup.

00:02:43.992 --> 00:02:46.365
So is that the kind of
difference that explains

00:02:46.365 --> 00:02:49.067
why it's morally
permissible to kill the pig

00:02:49.067 --> 00:02:51.715
but not morally permissible to kill us?

00:02:51.715 --> 00:02:53.511
Let me ask you this.

00:02:53.511 --> 00:02:56.815
There's a Twilight Zone
episode called "To Serve Man."

00:02:56.815 --> 00:02:58.248
If you want to see that episode,

00:02:58.248 --> 00:03:00.052
you should skip this part of the video,

00:03:00.052 --> 00:03:02.485
because I'm going to give
away something very important.

00:03:02.485 --> 00:03:03.671
In the Twilight Zone episode

00:03:03.671 --> 00:03:07.832
"To Serve Man," aliens come to earth and,

00:03:07.832 --> 00:03:11.415
to make a long story short,
they're farming us for food.

00:03:11.415 --> 00:03:13.531
Is that morally permissible?

00:03:13.531 --> 00:03:14.450
You might think, "No!

00:03:14.450 --> 00:03:16.813
"It's not permissible for
me to eat people for food

00:03:16.813 --> 00:03:19.910
"I don't need. Neither is it
permissible for aliens to eat us."

00:03:19.910 --> 00:03:22.939
But then imagine the alien
says, "But don't you see?

00:03:22.939 --> 00:03:25.061
"You're a different sort of
creature than we are.

00:03:25.061 --> 00:03:28.107
"We have totally different
genetic makeups."

00:03:28.107 --> 00:03:29.572
That does not seem like a very good

00:03:29.572 --> 00:03:32.329
answer the alien's given.

00:03:32.329 --> 00:03:34.189
One thing you might say is, "Yes, I see

00:03:34.189 --> 00:03:36.161
"that we have different genetic makeups

00:03:36.161 --> 00:03:39.828
"but I'm still the kind of
thing you shouldn't kill."

00:03:39.828 --> 00:03:43.064
But a pig might say that to us
if we say, "It's permissible

00:03:43.064 --> 00:03:46.243
"for us to kill you because
you're a pig and we are people."

00:03:46.243 --> 00:03:48.595
But maybe what you're getting
at when you say, "A pig's a pig;

00:03:48.595 --> 00:03:52.031
a person, a person" is people are special

00:03:52.031 --> 00:03:55.600
because, well, for one thing,

00:03:55.600 --> 00:03:56.982
we're quite a bit smarter than pigs

00:03:56.982 --> 00:03:59.890
which isn't to say pigs are dummies.

00:03:59.890 --> 00:04:01.356
Pigs are pretty smart.

00:04:01.356 --> 00:04:03.409
People are just smarter.

00:04:03.409 --> 00:04:04.444
Okay.

00:04:04.444 --> 00:04:06.046
One thing you might ask is,

00:04:06.046 --> 00:04:08.519
"Why does that make it okay to kill the pig?"

00:04:08.519 --> 00:04:10.121
But that's not what I want to ask,

00:04:10.121 --> 00:04:12.823
because while I think
you're smarter than a pig,

00:04:12.823 --> 00:04:14.746
you're watching a philosophy video.

00:04:14.746 --> 00:04:17.563
Not everyone is smarter than a pig.

00:04:17.563 --> 00:04:20.185
In fact, we all know some creatures,

00:04:20.185 --> 00:04:24.376
some people even probably,
who are not smarter than pigs.

00:04:24.376 --> 00:04:26.589
Is it okay to eat those people?

00:04:26.589 --> 00:04:27.846
No!

00:04:27.846 --> 00:04:29.947
That's not a hard question.

00:04:29.947 --> 00:04:33.055
Now, one reason it might be
you shouldn't eat people

00:04:33.055 --> 00:04:37.758
who have mental lives as pigs:
we care about those people.

00:04:37.758 --> 00:04:41.176
It might be that my brother
has the mental life of a pig,

00:04:41.176 --> 00:04:43.200
but it would be wrong to kill him for food,

00:04:43.200 --> 00:04:45.290
because I care about him.

00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:47.980
But let me ask you two things about this.

00:04:47.980 --> 00:04:51.472
First, why does caring about
my brother make a difference?

00:04:51.472 --> 00:04:55.060
If the reason it's wrong to
kill my severely mentally

00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:58.370
handicapped brother for food
is because I care about him,

00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:00.555
then what you're saying
is the reason it's wrong

00:05:00.555 --> 00:05:02.006
doesn't have to do with my brother,

00:05:02.006 --> 00:05:04.172
so much as it has does to do with me.

00:05:04.172 --> 00:05:05.928
And that does not seem correct.

00:05:05.928 --> 00:05:07.637
It seems like there's something
about what you're doing

00:05:07.637 --> 00:05:09.972
to my brother when you kill him for food

00:05:09.972 --> 00:05:10.983
that's objectionable.

00:05:10.983 --> 00:05:13.678
that has nothing to do with
what you're doing to me.

00:05:13.678 --> 00:05:15.461
Now let me ask you a different question:

00:05:15.461 --> 00:05:17.770
what if no one cared about my brother?

00:05:17.770 --> 00:05:21.460
What if my brother, with the
mental life of a pig or a hermit,

00:05:21.460 --> 00:05:22.499
no one cared about him?

00:05:22.499 --> 00:05:23.809
No one even knew about him?

00:05:23.809 --> 00:05:27.001
Would it be permissible
to kill him for food then?

00:05:27.001 --> 00:05:28.008
I don't think so.

00:05:28.008 --> 00:05:30.428
I still think this is not a hard question.

00:05:30.428 --> 00:05:31.878
What we're looking for is a difference

00:05:31.878 --> 00:05:35.442
between people and pigs that explains

00:05:35.442 --> 00:05:38.288
why it's morally permissible
to kill pigs for food

00:05:38.288 --> 00:05:41.297
but not permissible to kill people.

00:05:41.297 --> 00:05:42.765
And we've tried some differences out.

00:05:42.765 --> 00:05:44.440
They're different species,

00:05:44.440 --> 00:05:46.924
but that doesn't really
seem to explain it.

00:05:46.924 --> 00:05:50.053
People are smarter in general than pigs.

00:05:50.053 --> 00:05:52.303
That doesn't seem to explain it either.

00:05:52.303 --> 00:05:55.254
We care about people,
don't care about pigs.

00:05:55.254 --> 00:05:57.169
That doesn't seem to explain it either.

00:05:57.169 --> 00:05:58.607
What else?

00:05:58.607 --> 00:05:59.919
Well, here's something people say

00:05:59.919 --> 00:06:01.773
sometimes when you talk about this:

00:06:01.773 --> 00:06:03.166
"The pig would do it to us."

00:06:03.166 --> 00:06:05.179
Put a person with a pig.

00:06:05.179 --> 00:06:07.463
The pig might eventually eat the person.

00:06:07.463 --> 00:06:10.277
Does that show it's morally permissible

00:06:10.277 --> 00:06:12.548
for the person to eat the pig?

00:06:12.548 --> 00:06:13.845
Let me ask you a different question.

00:06:13.845 --> 00:06:17.453
Have you ever been punched
by a very small child?

00:06:17.453 --> 00:06:18.365
I have.

00:06:18.365 --> 00:06:21.451
Do you think it was permissible for
me to punch the child back,

00:06:21.451 --> 00:06:24.201
reasoning, "He did it to me; therefore,

00:06:24.201 --> 00:06:26.405
it's permissible for me to do it to him"?

00:06:26.405 --> 00:06:29.073
I think that would not be
very good reasoning.

00:06:29.073 --> 00:06:31.012
It would be wrong to punch the child,

00:06:31.012 --> 00:06:33.538
even though the child would do it to me.

00:06:33.538 --> 00:06:37.550
In fact, I think the child,
if the child is young enough,

00:06:37.550 --> 00:06:40.692
doesn't do anything wrong
if it does it to me.

00:06:40.692 --> 00:06:42.692
The child is not the kind
of thing that does anything

00:06:42.692 --> 00:06:47.544
right or wrong, but still,
we might do wrong to it.

00:06:47.544 --> 00:06:48.827
Last difference:

00:06:48.827 --> 00:06:51.107
we're at the top of the food chain.

00:06:51.107 --> 00:06:54.414
where we live in places where
we can watch philosophy videos.

00:06:54.414 --> 00:06:56.383
Obviously, if we lived in the ocean,

00:06:56.383 --> 00:06:58.475
we wouldn't be at the
top of the food chain.

00:06:58.475 --> 00:07:00.883
But where we are, we're the
top of the food chain,

00:07:00.883 --> 00:07:03.454
so isn't it morally permissible
for us to take advantage

00:07:03.454 --> 00:07:07.227
of that and kill whatever
we want for food?

00:07:07.227 --> 00:07:10.276
It might be that we're in a
position to do various things

00:07:10.276 --> 00:07:12.695
to other animals because we're
the top of the food chain,

00:07:12.695 --> 00:07:14.462
but that doesn't mean it's morally

00:07:14.462 --> 00:07:16.245
permissible for us to do it.

00:07:16.245 --> 00:07:17.825
I'm a very small person,

00:07:17.825 --> 00:07:19.688
so I'm constantly dealing with people

00:07:19.688 --> 00:07:21.247
who are much bigger than I am,

00:07:21.247 --> 00:07:23.087
who are much stronger than I am,

00:07:23.087 --> 00:07:25.945
who could pound me to a pulp very easily.

00:07:25.945 --> 00:07:27.473
Well, imagine they did.

00:07:27.473 --> 00:07:29.231
And I said, "You shouldn't have done that!

00:07:29.231 --> 00:07:30.471
"That was morally wrong."

00:07:30.471 --> 00:07:32.928
And they say, "But don't you see?

00:07:32.928 --> 00:07:34.541
"I'm stronger than you."

00:07:34.541 --> 00:07:35.627
That's terrible reasoning.

00:07:35.627 --> 00:07:36.986
Of course, they're stronger than me.

00:07:36.986 --> 00:07:38.475
What I wanted to know is why it was okay

00:07:38.475 --> 00:07:40.972
for them to express their
strength in that way.

00:07:40.972 --> 00:07:43.627
Similarly, it might be that we're above

00:07:43.627 --> 00:07:45.265
the pig on the food chain,

00:07:45.265 --> 00:07:46.677
and as you get ready
to kill the pig to eat it,

00:07:46.677 --> 00:07:49.879
the pig might say, "Why
are you eating me?"

00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:52.544
We just say, "We can.

00:07:52.544 --> 00:07:54.706
"We have control over you."

00:07:54.706 --> 00:07:57.154
That does not seem like
a very good answer.

00:07:57.154 --> 00:07:59.012
Sometimes people say something related

00:07:59.012 --> 00:08:02.219
which is "That's just the way nature is.

00:08:02.219 --> 00:08:04.323
"That's why it's morally permissible."

00:08:04.323 --> 00:08:06.050
But it's natural to do all sorts

00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:08.169
of things that are morally wrong.

00:08:08.169 --> 00:08:09.492
If you're listening to this video

00:08:09.492 --> 00:08:11.163
and getting really frustrated,

00:08:11.163 --> 00:08:12.777
it's natural to want to punch me.

00:08:12.777 --> 00:08:15.260
It might be natural to punch me.

00:08:15.260 --> 00:08:17.957
But that doesn't mean you should do it.

00:08:17.957 --> 00:08:20.589
So I'm perplexed.

00:08:20.589 --> 00:08:22.740
I started off asking

00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:24.975
whether it's okay to kill pigs for food.

00:08:24.975 --> 00:08:28.573
To answer that question, I asked,
first, a very easy question:

00:08:28.573 --> 00:08:30.595
whether it's okay to kill people for food.

00:08:30.595 --> 00:08:31.969
That's an easy question.

00:08:31.969 --> 00:08:33.143
The answer is "No."

00:08:33.143 --> 00:08:37.097
Then I asked, "What's the
difference between people and pigs,

00:08:37.097 --> 00:08:41.288
"such that it's permissible
to kill pigs for food

00:08:41.288 --> 00:08:44.181
"even though it's not
permissible to kill people?"

00:08:44.181 --> 00:08:46.863
And I've gone through
a bunch of differences.

00:08:46.863 --> 00:08:50.213
None of them seem like they
do the work that's required.

00:08:50.213 --> 00:08:53.228
None of them seem like they
explain why it's okay to kill

00:08:53.228 --> 00:08:57.840
pigs for food but it's not
okay to kill people for food.

00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.355
So I hope you'll help me
figure out the answer,

00:09:00.355 --> 00:09:04.700
or decide it's morally
wrong to kill pigs for food.

00:09:04.700 --> 00:09:06.465
Thanks.