1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,200
(intro music)

2
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,660
My name is Tyler Doggett.

3
00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:11,331
I teach at the University of Vermont,

4
00:00:11,331 --> 00:00:14,930
and I'm going to talk about
whether it's morally

5
00:00:14,930 --> 00:00:18,558
permissible to kill animals for food.

6
00:00:18,558 --> 00:00:21,048
One thing I'm not going to talk about is

7
00:00:21,048 --> 00:00:25,520
whether it's morally permissible
to eat animals for food.

8
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,711
I'm also not going to talk
about whether it's okay,

9
00:00:27,711 --> 00:00:32,061
morally okay, to buy animals for food.

10
00:00:32,061 --> 00:00:33,907
What I want to talk about
is whether it's morally

11
00:00:33,907 --> 00:00:37,883
permissible to kill animals
for food in the first place.

12
00:00:37,883 --> 00:00:42,041
And we do kill a lot of
animals for food each year.

13
00:00:42,041 --> 00:00:46,159
Millions of pigs are
killed for food each year.

14
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,699
Is that permissible?

15
00:00:47,699 --> 00:00:51,858
Over twenty million pigs were
killed last year for food.

16
00:00:51,858 --> 00:00:53,444
Is that morally permissible?

17
00:00:53,444 --> 00:00:58,444
In particular, is it morally
permissible to kill pigs

18
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,294
for food that we don't need to eat?

19
00:01:02,294 --> 00:01:03,891
I'm not talking about a situation

20
00:01:03,891 --> 00:01:06,955
where you're all alone on a desert island,

21
00:01:06,955 --> 00:01:10,517
and if you don't kill that
pig, you're going to die.

22
00:01:10,517 --> 00:01:12,359
I'm talking about the
situation where in right now,

23
00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:14,822
which is we don't have
to kill pigs to eat.

24
00:01:14,822 --> 00:01:16,914
We could all eat kale sandwiches.

25
00:01:16,914 --> 00:01:19,203
But instead, because they're delicious,

26
00:01:19,203 --> 00:01:22,148
we kill millions of pigs each year.

27
00:01:22,148 --> 00:01:24,215
Is that morally permissible?

28
00:01:24,215 --> 00:01:25,914
That's what I want to talk about.

29
00:01:25,914 --> 00:01:28,307
But let's talk about a
different question first.

30
00:01:28,307 --> 00:01:33,307
Is it morally permissible
to kill people for food?

31
00:01:33,358 --> 00:01:35,388
Again, I'm not talking about a situation

32
00:01:35,388 --> 00:01:38,973
like the Donner Party, or situations

33
00:01:38,973 --> 00:01:43,031
where people crash land
on a deserted island,

34
00:01:43,031 --> 00:01:45,991
and if they don't eat each
other, they're going to die.

35
00:01:45,991 --> 00:01:50,273
I mean, would it be
permissible for you to keep

36
00:01:50,273 --> 00:01:54,095
some stranger in your house
and kill that stranger

37
00:01:54,095 --> 00:01:57,347
for food, rather
than eat a kale sandwich.

38
00:01:57,347 --> 00:01:59,351
We don't have to talk about
that question for very long

39
00:01:59,351 --> 00:02:02,113
That has an easy answer: no!

40
00:02:02,119 --> 00:02:04,879
It is morally impermissible to kill people

41
00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:07,093
for food you don't need to eat.

42
00:02:07,093 --> 00:02:08,520
So let me ask you this.

43
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,223
If it is permissible to kill pigs for food

44
00:02:13,223 --> 00:02:16,904
but not permissible to
kill people for food,

45
00:02:16,904 --> 00:02:19,631
there must be some difference
between pigs and people

46
00:02:19,631 --> 00:02:21,383
that explains why it's permissible

47
00:02:21,383 --> 00:02:24,433
to kill the pig but not the person.

48
00:02:24,433 --> 00:02:26,441
So what's the difference?

49
00:02:26,441 --> 00:02:27,848
Here's an idea.

50
00:02:27,848 --> 00:02:29,702
The pig is a pig.

51
00:02:29,702 --> 00:02:31,318
The person is a person.

52
00:02:31,318 --> 00:02:34,406
So this difference, I think, is supposed

53
00:02:34,406 --> 00:02:38,011
to be a difference in genetic makeup,

54
00:02:38,011 --> 00:02:40,916
the type of DNA the pig has

55
00:02:40,916 --> 00:02:43,992
that's different from our genetic makeup.

56
00:02:43,992 --> 00:02:46,365
So is that the kind of
difference that explains

57
00:02:46,365 --> 00:02:49,067
why it's morally
permissible to kill the pig

58
00:02:49,067 --> 00:02:51,715
but not morally permissible to kill us?

59
00:02:51,715 --> 00:02:53,511
Let me ask you this.

60
00:02:53,511 --> 00:02:56,815
There's a Twilight Zone
episode called "To Serve Man."

61
00:02:56,815 --> 00:02:58,248
If you want to see that episode,

62
00:02:58,248 --> 00:03:00,052
you should skip this part of the video,

63
00:03:00,052 --> 00:03:02,485
because I'm going to give
away something very important.

64
00:03:02,485 --> 00:03:03,671
In the Twilight Zone episode

65
00:03:03,671 --> 00:03:07,832
"To Serve Man," aliens come to earth and,

66
00:03:07,832 --> 00:03:11,415
to make a long story short,
they're farming us for food.

67
00:03:11,415 --> 00:03:13,531
Is that morally permissible?

68
00:03:13,531 --> 00:03:14,450
You might think, "No!

69
00:03:14,450 --> 00:03:16,813
"It's not permissible for
me to eat people for food

70
00:03:16,813 --> 00:03:19,910
"I don't need. Neither is it
permissible for aliens to eat us."

71
00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:22,939
But then imagine the alien
says, "But don't you see?

72
00:03:22,939 --> 00:03:25,061
"You're a different sort of
creature than we are.

73
00:03:25,061 --> 00:03:28,107
"We have totally different
genetic makeups."

74
00:03:28,107 --> 00:03:29,572
That does not seem like a very good

75
00:03:29,572 --> 00:03:32,329
answer the alien's given.

76
00:03:32,329 --> 00:03:34,189
One thing you might say is, "Yes, I see

77
00:03:34,189 --> 00:03:36,161
"that we have different genetic makeups

78
00:03:36,161 --> 00:03:39,828
"but I'm still the kind of
thing you shouldn't kill."

79
00:03:39,828 --> 00:03:43,064
But a pig might say that to us
if we say, "It's permissible

80
00:03:43,064 --> 00:03:46,243
"for us to kill you because
you're a pig and we are people."

81
00:03:46,243 --> 00:03:48,595
But maybe what you're getting
at when you say, "A pig's a pig;

82
00:03:48,595 --> 00:03:52,031
a person, a person" is people are special

83
00:03:52,031 --> 00:03:55,600
because, well, for one thing,

84
00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:56,982
we're quite a bit smarter than pigs

85
00:03:56,982 --> 00:03:59,890
which isn't to say pigs are dummies.

86
00:03:59,890 --> 00:04:01,356
Pigs are pretty smart.

87
00:04:01,356 --> 00:04:03,409
People are just smarter.

88
00:04:03,409 --> 00:04:04,444
Okay.

89
00:04:04,444 --> 00:04:06,046
One thing you might ask is,

90
00:04:06,046 --> 00:04:08,519
"Why does that make it okay to kill the pig?"

91
00:04:08,519 --> 00:04:10,121
But that's not what I want to ask,

92
00:04:10,121 --> 00:04:12,823
because while I think
you're smarter than a pig,

93
00:04:12,823 --> 00:04:14,746
you're watching a philosophy video.

94
00:04:14,746 --> 00:04:17,563
Not everyone is smarter than a pig.

95
00:04:17,563 --> 00:04:20,185
In fact, we all know some creatures,

96
00:04:20,185 --> 00:04:24,376
some people even probably,
who are not smarter than pigs.

97
00:04:24,376 --> 00:04:26,589
Is it okay to eat those people?

98
00:04:26,589 --> 00:04:27,846
No!

99
00:04:27,846 --> 00:04:29,947
That's not a hard question.

100
00:04:29,947 --> 00:04:33,055
Now, one reason it might be
you shouldn't eat people

101
00:04:33,055 --> 00:04:37,758
who have mental lives as pigs:
we care about those people.

102
00:04:37,758 --> 00:04:41,176
It might be that my brother
has the mental life of a pig,

103
00:04:41,176 --> 00:04:43,200
but it would be wrong to kill him for food,

104
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,290
because I care about him.

105
00:04:45,290 --> 00:04:47,980
But let me ask you two things about this.

106
00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:51,472
First, why does caring about
my brother make a difference?

107
00:04:51,472 --> 00:04:55,060
If the reason it's wrong to
kill my severely mentally

108
00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:58,370
handicapped brother for food
is because I care about him,

109
00:04:58,370 --> 00:05:00,555
then what you're saying
is the reason it's wrong

110
00:05:00,555 --> 00:05:02,006
doesn't have to do with my brother,

111
00:05:02,006 --> 00:05:04,172
so much as it has does to do with me.

112
00:05:04,172 --> 00:05:05,928
And that does not seem correct.

113
00:05:05,928 --> 00:05:07,637
It seems like there's something
about what you're doing

114
00:05:07,637 --> 00:05:09,972
to my brother when you kill him for food

115
00:05:09,972 --> 00:05:10,983
that's objectionable.

116
00:05:10,983 --> 00:05:13,678
that has nothing to do with
what you're doing to me.

117
00:05:13,678 --> 00:05:15,461
Now let me ask you a different question:

118
00:05:15,461 --> 00:05:17,770
what if no one cared about my brother?

119
00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:21,460
What if my brother, with the
mental life of a pig or a hermit,

120
00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:22,499
no one cared about him?

121
00:05:22,499 --> 00:05:23,809
No one even knew about him?

122
00:05:23,809 --> 00:05:27,001
Would it be permissible
to kill him for food then?

123
00:05:27,001 --> 00:05:28,008
I don't think so.

124
00:05:28,008 --> 00:05:30,428
I still think this is not a hard question.

125
00:05:30,428 --> 00:05:31,878
What we're looking for is a difference

126
00:05:31,878 --> 00:05:35,442
between people and pigs that explains

127
00:05:35,442 --> 00:05:38,288
why it's morally permissible
to kill pigs for food

128
00:05:38,288 --> 00:05:41,297
but not permissible to kill people.

129
00:05:41,297 --> 00:05:42,765
And we've tried some differences out.

130
00:05:42,765 --> 00:05:44,440
They're different species,

131
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,924
but that doesn't really
seem to explain it.

132
00:05:46,924 --> 00:05:50,053
People are smarter in general than pigs.

133
00:05:50,053 --> 00:05:52,303
That doesn't seem to explain it either.

134
00:05:52,303 --> 00:05:55,254
We care about people,
don't care about pigs.

135
00:05:55,254 --> 00:05:57,169
That doesn't seem to explain it either.

136
00:05:57,169 --> 00:05:58,607
What else?

137
00:05:58,607 --> 00:05:59,919
Well, here's something people say

138
00:05:59,919 --> 00:06:01,773
sometimes when you talk about this:

139
00:06:01,773 --> 00:06:03,166
"The pig would do it to us."

140
00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:05,179
Put a person with a pig.

141
00:06:05,179 --> 00:06:07,463
The pig might eventually eat the person.

142
00:06:07,463 --> 00:06:10,277
Does that show it's morally permissible

143
00:06:10,277 --> 00:06:12,548
for the person to eat the pig?

144
00:06:12,548 --> 00:06:13,845
Let me ask you a different question.

145
00:06:13,845 --> 00:06:17,453
Have you ever been punched
by a very small child?

146
00:06:17,453 --> 00:06:18,365
I have.

147
00:06:18,365 --> 00:06:21,451
Do you think it was permissible for
me to punch the child back,

148
00:06:21,451 --> 00:06:24,201
reasoning, "He did it to me; therefore,

149
00:06:24,201 --> 00:06:26,405
it's permissible for me to do it to him"?

150
00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:29,073
I think that would not be
very good reasoning.

151
00:06:29,073 --> 00:06:31,012
It would be wrong to punch the child,

152
00:06:31,012 --> 00:06:33,538
even though the child would do it to me.

153
00:06:33,538 --> 00:06:37,550
In fact, I think the child,
if the child is young enough,

154
00:06:37,550 --> 00:06:40,692
doesn't do anything wrong
if it does it to me.

155
00:06:40,692 --> 00:06:42,692
The child is not the kind
of thing that does anything

156
00:06:42,692 --> 00:06:47,544
right or wrong, but still,
we might do wrong to it.

157
00:06:47,544 --> 00:06:48,827
Last difference:

158
00:06:48,827 --> 00:06:51,107
we're at the top of the food chain.

159
00:06:51,107 --> 00:06:54,414
where we live in places where
we can watch philosophy videos.

160
00:06:54,414 --> 00:06:56,383
Obviously, if we lived in the ocean,

161
00:06:56,383 --> 00:06:58,475
we wouldn't be at the
top of the food chain.

162
00:06:58,475 --> 00:07:00,883
But where we are, we're the
top of the food chain,

163
00:07:00,883 --> 00:07:03,454
so isn't it morally permissible
for us to take advantage

164
00:07:03,454 --> 00:07:07,227
of that and kill whatever
we want for food?

165
00:07:07,227 --> 00:07:10,276
It might be that we're in a
position to do various things

166
00:07:10,276 --> 00:07:12,695
to other animals because we're
the top of the food chain,

167
00:07:12,695 --> 00:07:14,462
but that doesn't mean it's morally

168
00:07:14,462 --> 00:07:16,245
permissible for us to do it.

169
00:07:16,245 --> 00:07:17,825
I'm a very small person,

170
00:07:17,825 --> 00:07:19,688
so I'm constantly dealing with people

171
00:07:19,688 --> 00:07:21,247
who are much bigger than I am,

172
00:07:21,247 --> 00:07:23,087
who are much stronger than I am,

173
00:07:23,087 --> 00:07:25,945
who could pound me to a pulp very easily.

174
00:07:25,945 --> 00:07:27,473
Well, imagine they did.

175
00:07:27,473 --> 00:07:29,231
And I said, "You shouldn't have done that!

176
00:07:29,231 --> 00:07:30,471
"That was morally wrong."

177
00:07:30,471 --> 00:07:32,928
And they say, "But don't you see?

178
00:07:32,928 --> 00:07:34,541
"I'm stronger than you."

179
00:07:34,541 --> 00:07:35,627
That's terrible reasoning.

180
00:07:35,627 --> 00:07:36,986
Of course, they're stronger than me.

181
00:07:36,986 --> 00:07:38,475
What I wanted to know is why it was okay

182
00:07:38,475 --> 00:07:40,972
for them to express their
strength in that way.

183
00:07:40,972 --> 00:07:43,627
Similarly, it might be that we're above

184
00:07:43,627 --> 00:07:45,265
the pig on the food chain,

185
00:07:45,265 --> 00:07:46,677
and as you get ready
to kill the pig to eat it,

186
00:07:46,677 --> 00:07:49,879
the pig might say, "Why
are you eating me?"

187
00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:52,544
We just say, "We can.

188
00:07:52,544 --> 00:07:54,706
"We have control over you."

189
00:07:54,706 --> 00:07:57,154
That does not seem like
a very good answer.

190
00:07:57,154 --> 00:07:59,012
Sometimes people say something related

191
00:07:59,012 --> 00:08:02,219
which is "That's just the way nature is.

192
00:08:02,219 --> 00:08:04,323
"That's why it's morally permissible."

193
00:08:04,323 --> 00:08:06,050
But it's natural to do all sorts

194
00:08:06,050 --> 00:08:08,169
of things that are morally wrong.

195
00:08:08,169 --> 00:08:09,492
If you're listening to this video

196
00:08:09,492 --> 00:08:11,163
and getting really frustrated,

197
00:08:11,163 --> 00:08:12,777
it's natural to want to punch me.

198
00:08:12,777 --> 00:08:15,260
It might be natural to punch me.

199
00:08:15,260 --> 00:08:17,957
But that doesn't mean you should do it.

200
00:08:17,957 --> 00:08:20,589
So I'm perplexed.

201
00:08:20,589 --> 00:08:22,740
I started off asking

202
00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:24,975
whether it's okay to kill pigs for food.

203
00:08:24,975 --> 00:08:28,573
To answer that question, I asked,
first, a very easy question:

204
00:08:28,573 --> 00:08:30,595
whether it's okay to kill people for food.

205
00:08:30,595 --> 00:08:31,969
That's an easy question.

206
00:08:31,969 --> 00:08:33,143
The answer is "No."

207
00:08:33,143 --> 00:08:37,097
Then I asked, "What's the
difference between people and pigs,

208
00:08:37,097 --> 00:08:41,288
"such that it's permissible
to kill pigs for food

209
00:08:41,288 --> 00:08:44,181
"even though it's not
permissible to kill people?"

210
00:08:44,181 --> 00:08:46,863
And I've gone through
a bunch of differences.

211
00:08:46,863 --> 00:08:50,213
None of them seem like they
do the work that's required.

212
00:08:50,213 --> 00:08:53,228
None of them seem like they
explain why it's okay to kill

213
00:08:53,228 --> 00:08:57,840
pigs for food but it's not
okay to kill people for food.

214
00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,355
So I hope you'll help me
figure out the answer,

215
00:09:00,355 --> 00:09:04,700
or decide it's morally
wrong to kill pigs for food.

216
00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:06,465
Thanks.