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Chris Anderson: Hello. So welcome
to this TED dialogue.

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It's the first of a series that's
really going to be done

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in response to the current
political upheaval.

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I don't know about you.

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I've become quite concerned about
the growing divisiveness in this country

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and in the world.

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No one's listening to each other. Right?

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They aren't.

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And it feels like we need

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a different kind of conversation,

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one that's based on, I don't know,

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reason, listening, on understanding,

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on a broader context.

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That's at least what we're going to try

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in these TED Dialogues starting today,

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and we couldn't have anyone with us

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who I'd be more excited to kick this off.

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This is a mind right here that thinks

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pretty much like no one else on the planet

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I would say, because I'm serious.

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I'm serious.

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He synthesizes history

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with underlying ideas in a way

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that kind of takes your breath away.

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So some of you will know this book,

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"Sapiens."

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Has anyone here read "Sapiens?"

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(Applause)

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I mean, I could not put it down.

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The way that he tells
the story of mankind

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through big ideas that really make you
think differently, though,

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it's kind of amazing.

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And here's the follow-up, which I think
is being published in the U.S. next week.

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Yuval Noah Harari: Yeah, next week.
CA: "Homo Deus."

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Now this is the history
of the next hundred years.

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I've had a chance to read it.

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It's extremely dramatic,

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and I daresay for some people

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quite alarming.

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It's a must-read,

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and honestly, we couldn't have
someone better to help

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make sense of what on Earth
is happening in the world right now.

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So a warm welcome, please,
to Yuval Noah Harari.

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(Applause)

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It's great to be joined by our friends
on Facebook and around the web.

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Hello, Facebook.

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And all of you, as I start
asking questions of Yuval,

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come up with your own questions,

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and not necessarily about
the political scandal du jour

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but about the broader understanding
of where are we heading?

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You ready? Okay, we're going to go.

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So here we are, Yuval, New York City,

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2017, there's a new president in power,

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and shockwaves rippling around the world.

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What on Earth is happening?

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YNH: I think the basic thing that happens

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is that we have lost our story.

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Humans think in stories,

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and we try to make sense of the world

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by telling stories,

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and for the last few decades,

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we had a very simple
and very attractive story

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about what's happening in the world,

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and the story said that, oh,
what's happening is

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that the economy is being globalized,

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politics is being liberalized,

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and the combination of the two
will create paradise on Earth,

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and we just need to keep on
globalizing the economy

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and liberalizing the political system,

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and everything will be wonderful.

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And 2016 is the moment

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when a very large segment,

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even of the Western world,

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stopped believing in this story.

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For good or bad reasons doesn't matter.

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People stopped believing in the story,

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and when you don't have a story,

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you don't understand what's happening.

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CA: Part of you believes that that story
was actually a very effective story.

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It worked.

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YNH: To some extent, yes.

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According to some measurements,

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we are now in the best time ever

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for humankind.

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Today, for the first time in history,

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more people die from eating too much

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than from eating too little,

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which is an amazing achievement.

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(Laughter)

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Also for the first time in history,

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more people die from old age

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than from infectious diseases,

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and violence is also down.

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For the first time in history,

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more people commit suicide

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than are killed by crime and terrorism

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and war put together.

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Statistically, you are
your own worst enemy.

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At least, of all the people in the world,

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you are most likely
to be killed by yourself,

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which is very good news

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compared to the level of violence

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that we saw in previous eras.

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CA: But this process
of connecting the world

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ended up with a large group of people
kind of feeling left out,

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and they've reacted, and so we have
this bombshell that's sort of ripping

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through the whole system.

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I mean, what do you make
of what's happened?

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It feels like the old way
that people thought of politics,

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the left-right divide,
has been blown up and replaced.

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How should we think of this?

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YNH: Yeah, the old 20th century

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political model of left versus right

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is now largely irrelevant,

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and the real divide today

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is in global and national,

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global or local.

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And you see it again all over the world

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that this is now the main struggle.

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We probably need completely
new political models

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and completely new ways of thinking

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about politics.

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In essence what you can say

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is that we now have global ecology,

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we have a global economy,

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but we have national politics,

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and this doesn't work together.

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This makes the political
system ineffective

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because it has no control
over the forces that shape our life.

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And you have basically two solutions

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to this imbalance.

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Either deglobalize the economy

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and turn it back into a national economy,

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or globalize the political system.

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CA: So some, I guess
many liberals out there

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view Trump and his government

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as kind of irredeemably bad,

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just awful in every way.

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Do you see any underlying

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narrative or political philosophy in there

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that is at least worth understanding.

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How would you articulate that philosophy?

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Is it just the philosophy of nationalism?

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YNH: I think the underlying
feeling or idea

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is that the political system,
something is broken there.

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It doesn't empower

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the ordinary person anymore.

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It doesn't care so much
about the ordinary person anymore,

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and I think this diagnosis
of the political disease is correct.

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With regard to the answers,
I am far less certain.

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I think what we are seeing
is the immediate human reaction:

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if something doesn't work, let's go back.

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And you see it all over the world,

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that people, almost nobody
in the political system today

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has any future-oriented vision

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of where humankind is going.

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Almost everywhere, you see
retrograde vision.

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Let's make America great again,

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like it was great, I don't know,
in the '50s, in the '80s, sometime,

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let's go back there.

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And you go to Russia.

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So a hundred years after Lenin,

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Putin's vision for the future

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is basically, ah, let's go back
to the Tsarist empire.

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And in Israel, where I come from,

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the hottest political vision

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of the present

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is "let's build the temple again."

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So let's go back 2,000 years backward.

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So people are thinking
sometime in the past we've lost it,

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and sometimes in the past, it's like
you've lost your way in the city,

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and you say okay, let's go back
to the point where I felt secure

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and start again.

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I don't think this can work,

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but a lot of people,
this is their gut instinct.

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CA: But why couldn't it work?

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America first is a very
appealing slogan in many ways.

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Patriotism is in many ways
a very noble thing.

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It's played a role in promoting

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cooperation among large numbers of people.

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Why couldn't you have a world

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organized in country

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all of which put themselves first?

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YNH: For many centuries,

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even thousands of years,

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patriotism worked quite well.

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Of course it led to wars an so forth,

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but we shouldn't focus
too much on the bad.

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There are also many,
many positive things about patriotism,

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and the ability to have
a large number of people

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care about each other,

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sympathize with one another,

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and come together for collective action.

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If you go back to the first nations,

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so thousands of years ago,

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the people who lived along
the Yellow River in China,

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it was many, many different tribes

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and they all depended on the river

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for survival and for prosperity,

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but all of them also suffered

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from periodical floods

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and periodical droughts,

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and no tribe could do anything about it

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because each of them controlled
just a tiny section of the river.

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And then in a long
and complicated process,

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the tribes coalesced together

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to form the Chinese nation,

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which controlled the entire Yellow River

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and had the ability

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to bring hundreds of thousands
of people together

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to build dams and canals

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and regulate the river

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and prevent the worst floods and droughts

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and raise the level
of prosperity for everybody.

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And this worked in many places
around the world.

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But in the 21st century,

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technology is changing all that
in a fundamental way.

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We are now living, all people
in the world are living

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alongside the same cyber river,

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and no single nation

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can regulate this river by itself.

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We are all living together
in a single planet

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which is threatened by our own actions,

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and if you don't have some kind
of global cooperation,

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nationalism is just not on the right level

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to tackle the problems

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of whether it's climate change

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or whether it's technological disruption.

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CA: So it was a beautiful idea

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in a world where most of the action,

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most of the issues,

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took place on national scale,

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but your argument is that the issues
that matter most today

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no longer take place on a national scale
but on a global scale.

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YNH: Exactly. All of the major problems
of the world today

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are global in essence,

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and they cannot be solved

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unless through some kind
of global cooperation.

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It's not just climate change,

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which is, like, the most obvious
example people give.

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I think more in terms
of technological disruption.

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If you think about, for example,
artificial intelligence,

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over the next 20, 30 years

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pushing hundreds of millions of people
out of the job market,

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this is a problem on a global level.

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It will disrupt the economy
of all the countries,

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and similarly if you think
about, say, bioengineering

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and people being afraid
of conducting genetic engineering

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research in humans,

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it won't help if just a single country,

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let's say the U.S.,

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outlaws all genetic experiments in humans

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but China or North Korea
continues to do it.

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So the U.S. cannot solve it by itself,

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and very quickly, the pressure on the U.S.

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to do the same will be immense

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because we are talking about
high-risk, high-gain technologies.

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If somebody else is doing it,

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I can't allow myself to remain behind.

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The only way to have regulations,

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effective regulations,

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on things like genetic engineering,

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is to have global regulations.

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If you just have national regulations,

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nobody would like to stay behind.

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: So this is really interesting.

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It seems that this might be one key

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to provoking at least
a constructive conversation

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
between the different sides here,

270
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because I think everyone can agree
that the start point

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of a lot of the anger that's
propelled us to where we are

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is because of the legitimate
concerns about job loss.

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Work is gone, a traditional way of life

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has gone, and it's no wonder
that people are furious about that.

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And in general, they have blamed
globalism, global elites

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for doing this to them
without asking their permission,

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that seems like
a legitimate complaint.

278
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But what I hear you saying

279
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that, so a key question is,
what is the real cause of job loss,

280
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
both now and going forward?

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
To the extent that it's about globalism,

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then the right response, yes,

283
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is to shut down borders

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and keep people out

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and change trade agreements and so forth.

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But you're saying, I think,

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that actually the bigger cause of job loss

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is not going to be that at all.

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's going to originate
in technological questions,

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we have no chance of solving that
unless we operate as a connected world.

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yeah, I think that,

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't know about the present,

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but looking to the future,

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's not the Mexicans or Chinese

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who will take the jobs from
the people in Pennsylvania,

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's the robots and algorithms,

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so unless you plan to build a big wall

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the border of California --

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter) --

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the wall on the border with Mexico
is going to be very ineffective.

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I was struck when I watched
the debates before the elections,

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was struck that certainly Trump
did not even attempt

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to frighten people by saying
the robots will take your jobs.

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now even if it's not true,
it doesn't matter.

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It could have been an extremely
effective way of frightening people

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and galvanizing people.
"The robots will take your jobs."

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And nobody used that line.

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it made me afraid,

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because it meant

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that no matter what happens

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in universities and laboratories,

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there there is already
an intense debate about it,

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but in the mainstream political system

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and among the general public,

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people are just unaware

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that there could be an immense
technological disruption,

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not in 200 years,

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but in 10, 20, 30 years,

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we have to do something about it now,

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
partly because most of what we teach

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
children today in school

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or in college

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is going to be completely irrelevant

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the job market of 2040, 2050.

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's not something we'll need
to think about in 2040.

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We need to think today

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what to teach the young people.

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Yeah, no, absolutely.

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You've often written about
moments in history

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where humankind has

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
entered a new era kind of unintentionally.

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Decisions have been made,
technologies have been developed,

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and suddenly the world has changed,

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
possibly in a way that's
worse for everyone.

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So one of the example
you give in "Sapiens"

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is just the whole agricultural revolution,

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which for an actual person
tilling the fields,

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they just picked up a 12-hour
backbreaking workday

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
instead of six hours in the jungle

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and a much more interesting lifestyle.

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So are we at another possible
phase change here

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where we kind of sleepwalk into
a future that none of us actually wants?

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yes, very much so.

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
During the agricultural revolution,

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what happened is that immense
technological and economic revolution

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
empowered the human collective,

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but when you look at actual
individual lives,

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the life of a tiny elite

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
became much better,

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the life of the majority of people

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
became considerably worse.

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And this can happen again
in the 21st century.

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No doubt the new technologies
will empower the human collective,

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we may end up again

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with a tiny elite

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ripping all the benefits,

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
taking all the fruits,

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the masses of the population

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
finding themselves worse

360
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than they were before,

361
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
certainly much worse than this tiny elite.

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: And those elites might not
even be human elites.

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They might be cyborgs or --

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yeah, they could be
enhanced superhumans.

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They could be cyborgs.

366
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They could be completely
nonorganic elites.

367
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They could even be
non-conscious algorithms.

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What we see now in the world

369
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is authority shifting away

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from humans to algorithms.

371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
More and more decisions

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about personal lives,
about economic matters,

373
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about political matters,

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is actually being taken by algorithms.

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you ask the bank for a loan,

376
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
chances are your fate is decided
by an algorithm, not by a human being,

377
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the general impression is that

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
maybe homo sapiens just lost it.

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The world is so complicated,

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there is so much data,

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things are changing so fast,

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that this thing that evolved
on the African savannah

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
tens of thousands of years ago

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to cope with a particular environment,

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a particular volume
of information and data,

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it just can't handle the realities
of the 21st century,

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the only thing that may
be able to handle it

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is big data algorithms.

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So no wonder that more and more
authority is shifting from us

390
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the algorithms.

391
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: So we're in New York City

392
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the first of a series of TED Dialogues

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with Yuval Harari,

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there's a Facebook live
audience out there.

395
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're excited to have you with us.

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're going to start coming
to some of your questions

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and questions of people in the room

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in just a few minutes,

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so have those coming.

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yuval, if you're going
to make the argument

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we need to get past nationalism
because of the coming

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
technological danger, in a way,

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
presented by so much of what's happening

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we've got to have
a global conversation about this.

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Trouble is, it's really hard to get people
really believing that, I don't know,

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AI really is an imminent
threat, and so forth.

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The things that people,
some people at least,

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
care about much more immediately perhaps

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is perhaps climate change,

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
perhaps other issues like refugees,
nuclear weapons, and so forth.

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Would you argue that

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where we are right now

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that somehow those issues

414
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
need to be dialed up?

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You've talked about climate change,

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but Trump has said
he doesn't believe in that.

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So in a way your most powerful argument,

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you can't actually use to make this case.

419
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yeah, I think with climate change,

420
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at first sight, it's quite surprising

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that there is a very close correlation

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
between nationalism and climate change.

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, almost always the people
who deny climate change are nationalists.

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And at first sight, you think why?

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What's the connection?

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Why don't you have socialists
denying climate change?

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But then, when you think about it,

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's obvious.

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because nationalism has
no solution to climate change,

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if you want to be a nationalist
in the 21st century,

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you have to deny the problem.

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you accept the reality of the problem,

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then you must accept that yes,

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there is still room in the world

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for patriotism,

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there is still room in the world

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for having special loyalties

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and obligations towards your own people,

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
towards your own country.

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't think anybody is really
thinking of abolishing that.

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But in order to confront climate change,

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we need additional loyalties
and commitments

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to a level beyond the nation.

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that should not be impossible,

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because people can have

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
several layers of loyalty.

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You can be loyal to your family

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and to your community

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and to your nation,

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so why can't you be also loyal

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to humankind as a whole?

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Of course, there are occasions
where it becomes difficult,

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what to put first,

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but life is difficult. Handle it.

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter)

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Okay, so I would love to get
some questions from the audience here.

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We've got a microphone here.

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Speak into it, and Facebook,
get them coming too.

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Question: So one of the things

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that has clearly made a huge difference

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in this country and other countries

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is the income distribution inequality,

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the dramatic change in income distribution

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the U.S. from what it was 50 years ago

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and around the world.

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is there anything that we can do
to affect that,

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because that gets at a lot
of the underlying causes?

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: So far I haven't heard
a very good idea

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about what to do about it,

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
again partly because most ideas
remain on the national level,

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the problem is global.

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, one idea that we hear
quite a lot about now

473
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is universal basic income,

474
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but this is a problem.

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I think it's a good part,

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it's a problematic idea because
it's not clear what universal is

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it's not clear what basic is.

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Most people when they speak
about universal basic income,

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they actually mean national basic income,

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but the problem is global.

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let's say that you have an AI

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the 3D printers

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
taking away millions of jobs in Bangladesh

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of all the people who make my shirts

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and my shoes?

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So what's going to happen?

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The U.S. government will levy taxes

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in Google and Apple in California

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and use that to pay basic income
to unemployed Bangladeshis?

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you believe that,

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you can just as well
believe that Santa Claus

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
will come and solve the problem.

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So unless we have really universal

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not national basic income,

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the deep problems

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are not going to go away,

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and also it's not clear what basic is,

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because what are basic human needs?

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A thousand years ago,
just food and shelter is enough,

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but today people will say education

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a basic human need.

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It should be part of the package.

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But how much?

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Six years? Twelve years? PhD?

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Similarly with health care,

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
let's say that in 20, 30, 40 years,

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you'll have expensive treatments

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that can extend human life

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to 120, I don't know.

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Will this be part

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the basket of basic income or not?

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's a very difficult problem,

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because in a world

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where people lose their ability
to be employed,

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the only thing they are going to get
is this basic income.

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So what's part of it

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a very, very difficult
ethical question.

518
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: And there's a bunch of questions
on how the world affords it as well,

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who pays.

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's a question here
from Facebook from Lisa Larson.

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How does nationalism in the U.S. now

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
compare to that between
World War I and World War II

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the last century?

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Well the good news,

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with regard to the dangers of nationalism,

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we are in a much better position

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than a century ago.

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A century ago, 1917,

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Europeans were killing each other
by the millions.

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In 2016, with Brexit,

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as far as I can remember,

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a single person lost their life,

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
an MP who was murdered
by some extremist,

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just a single person.

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, if Brexit was about
British independence,

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this is the most peaceful
war of independence in human history.

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And let's say that Scotland
will now choose to leave the U.K.,

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
after Brexit.

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So in the 18th century,

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if Scotland wanted,
and the Scots wanted several times,

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to break out of the control of London,

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the reaction of the government
in London was to send an army up north

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to burn down Edinburgh

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and massacre the highland tribes.

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My guess is that if in 2018,

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the Scots vote for independence,

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the London government
will not send an army up north

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to burn down Edinburgh.

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Very few people are now willing
to kill or be killed

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for Scottish or for British independence.

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So for all the talk
of the rise of nationalism

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and going back to the 1930s,

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the 19th century,

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the West at least,

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the power of national sentiments today

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is far, far smaller

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than it was a century ago.

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Although some people now,
you hear publicly worrying

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about whether that might be shifting,

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that there could actually be
outbreaks of violence in the U.S.

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
depending on how things turn out.

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Should we be worried about that, or
do you really think things have shifted?

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: No, we should be worried.

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We should be aware of two things.

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
First of all, don't be hysterical.

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We are not back
in the First World War yet.

567
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But on the other hand,
don't be complacent.

568
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We reached from 1917 to 2017

569
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not by some divine miracle

570
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but simply by human decisions,

571
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and if we now start making
the wrong decisions,

572
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we could be back

573
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in an analogous situation

574
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to 1917 in a few years.

575
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the things I know as a historian

576
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that you should never
underestimate human stupidity.

577
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter)

578
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's one of the most powerful
forces in history

579
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is human stupidity and human violence.

580
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Humans do such crazy things

581
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for no obvious reasons,

582
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but again, at the same time,

583
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
another very powerful force
in human history is human wisdom.

584
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have both.

585
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: We have with us here
moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt,

586
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who I think has a question.

587
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Jonathan Haidt: Thanks, Yuval.

588
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you seem to be a fan
of global governance,

589
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but when you look at the map of the world

590
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from Transparency International,

591
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which rates the level of corruption
of political institutions,

592
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's a vast sea of red

593
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with little bits of yellow here and there
for those with good institutions.

594
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if we were to have
some kind of global governance,

595
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what makes you think that it would end up
being more like Denmark

596
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rather than more like Russia or Honduras,

597
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and aren't there alternatives

598
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
such as we did with CFCs?

599
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, there are ways to solve
global problems with national governments.

600
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What would world government
actually look like,

601
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and why do you think it would work?

602
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Well, I don't know
how it would look like.

603
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nobody still has a model for that.

604
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The main reason we need it

605
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is because many of these issues

606
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are lose-lose situations.

607
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When you have a win-win situation

608
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like trade, both sides can benefit
from a trade agreement,

609
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then this is something you can work out.

610
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Without some kind of global government,

611
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
national governments each
has an interest in doing it.

612
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But when you have a lose-lose situation,
like with climate change,

613
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's much more difficult

614
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without some overarching
authority, real authority.

615
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, how to get there

616
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and how would it look like,

617
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't know.

618
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And certainly there is no obvious reason

619
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to think that it would look like Denmark,

620
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or that it would be a democracy.

621
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Most likely it wouldn't.

622
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We don't have workable

623
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
democratic models

624
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for a global government.

625
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So maybe it would look more
like ancient China

626
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than like modern Denmark,

627
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but still, given the dangers

628
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are facing,

629
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think the imperative

630
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of having some kind of real ability

631
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to force through difficult decisions

632
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the global level

633
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is more important

634
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than almost anything else.

635
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: There's a question from Facebook here,

636
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then we'll get the mic to Andrew.

637
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So Kat Hebron on Facebook,

638
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
calling in from Vale:

639
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how would developed nations manage

640
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the millions of climate migrants?

641
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: I don't know.

642
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: That's your answer, Kat.
(Laughter)

643
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: And I don't think
that they know either.

644
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, they'll just
deny the problem, maybe.

645
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: But immigration, generally,
is another example of a sort of problem

646
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's very hard to solve
on a nation-by-nation basis.

647
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One nation can shut its doors,

648
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but maybe that stores up
problems for the future.

649
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yes. I mean,
it's another very good case,

650
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
especially because it's so much easier

651
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to migrate today

652
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than it was in the Middle Ages
or in ancient times.

653
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Yuval, there's a belief

654
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
among many technologists, certainly,

655
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that political concerns
are kind of overblown,

656
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that actually political leaders
don't have that much

657
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
influence in the world,

658
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the real determination

659
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of humanity at this point is by science,
by invention, by companies,

660
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by many things other than
political leaders,

661
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it's actually very hard
for leaders to do much,

662
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we're actually worrying
about nothing here.

663
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Well, first, it should be emphasized

664
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that it's true that political leaders
ability to do good is very limited,

665
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but their ability to do harm is unlimited.

666
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is a basic imbalance here.

667
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You can still press the button
and blow everybody up.

668
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You have that kind of ability,

669
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but if you want, for example,
to reduce inequality,

670
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's very, very difficult.

671
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But to start a war,

672
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you can still do so very easily.

673
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So there is a built-in imbalance
in the political system today

674
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is very frustrating

675
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that you cannot do a lot of good

676
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but you can still do a lot of harm.

677
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And this makes the political system

678
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
still a very big concern.

679
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: So as you look at what's
happening today,

680
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and putting your historian's hat on,

681
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do you look back in history

682
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at moments when things
were going just fine

683
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and an individual leader

684
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
really took the world
or their country backwards?

685
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: There are quite a few examples,

686
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I should emphasize, it's never
an individual leader.

687
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, somebody put him there,

688
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and somebody allowed him
to continue to be there.

689
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's never really just the fault
of a single individual.

690
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is a lot of people

691
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
behind every such individual.

692
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Can we have the microphone here please

693
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to Andrew?

694
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Andrew Solomon: You've talked a lot about
the global versus the national,

695
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but increasingly

696
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but increasingly it seems to me
that the world situation

697
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is in the hands of identity groups.

698
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We look at people within the United States

699
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who have been recruited by ISIS.

700
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We look at these other groups
which have formed

701
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which go outside of national bounds

702
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but still represent
significant authorities.

703
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How are they to be integrated
into the system,

704
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and how is a diverse set of identities

705
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be made coherent under
either national or global leadership?

706
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: well, the problem
of such diverse identities

707
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a problem for nationalism as well.

708
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nationalism believes
in a single, monolithic identity,

709
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and exclusive or at least
more extreme versions of nationalism

710
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
believe in an exclusive loyalty
to a single identity,

711
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and therefore nationalism has had
a lot of problems

712
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with people wanting to divide
their identities

713
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
between various groups.

714
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's not just a problem, say,
for a global vision.

715
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think, again, history shows

716
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that you shouldn't necessarily think

717
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in such exclusive terms.

718
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you think that there is just
a single identity for a person,

719
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I am just X, that's it,

720
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I can't be several things,
I can be just that,

721
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's the start of the problem.

722
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You have religions, you have nations

723
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that sometimes demand exclusive loyalty,

724
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it's not the only option.

725
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are many religions and many nations

726
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that enable you to have diverse identities

727
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at the same time.

728
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: But is one explanation of what's
happened in the last year

729
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that a group of people have got
fed up with, if you like,

730
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the liberal elites, for want
of a better term,

731
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
obsessing over many, many
different identities

732
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and them feeling,
"But what about my identity?

733
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I am being completely ignored here.

734
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And by the way, I thought
I was the majority."

735
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that that's actually
sparked a lot of the anger.

736
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yeah. Identity is always problematic

737
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because identity is always based

738
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on fictional stories

739
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that sooner or later collide with reality.

740
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Almost all identities,

741
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, beyond the level

742
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the basic communities
of a few dozen people,

743
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are based on a fictional story.

744
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They are not the truth.

745
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They are not the reality.

746
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's just a story that people invent
and tell one another and start believing.

747
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And therefore all identities
are extremely unstable.

748
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They are not a biological reality.

749
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, sometimes nationalists,
for example, think that the nation

750
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a biological entity.

751
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's made of the combination
of soil and blood,

752
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
creates the nation.

753
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But this is just a fictional story.

754
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Soil and blood
kind of makes a gooey mess.

755
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter)

756
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: It does,

757
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and also it messes with your mind

758
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when you think too much

759
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I am a combination of soil and blood.

760
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you look from a biological perspective,

761
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
obviously none of the nations
that exist today

762
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
existed 5,000 years ago.

763
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Homo sapiens is a social animal,

764
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's for sure,

765
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but for millions of years,

766
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
homo sapiens and our hominid ancestors

767
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
lived in small communities

768
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of a few dozen individuals.

769
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Everybody knew everybody else.

770
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whereas modern nations
are imagined communities,

771
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in a sense that I don't
even know all these people.

772
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I come from a relatively
small nation, Israel,

773
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and eight million Israelis,

774
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I never met most of them.

775
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I will never meet most of them.

776
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They basically exist here.

777
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: But in terms of this identity,

778
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this group who feel left out

779
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and perhaps have work taken away,

780
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, in "Homo Deus"

781
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you actually speak of this group
in one sense expanding,

782
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that so many people

783
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
may have their jobs taken away

784
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by technology in some way

785
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we could end up with a really large,

786
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think you call it a useless class,

787
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a class where traditionally,

788
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as viewed by the economy,
these people have no use.

789
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
YNH: Yes.

790
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: How likely a possibility is that?

791
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is that something we should
be terrified about?

792
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And can we address it in any way?