0:00:05.973,0:00:08.013 (Andrew) Welcome to the Infoboxes panel. 0:00:08.013,0:00:11.036 How many people here know[br]what an infobox is in our community? 0:00:11.811,0:00:15.531 Good, but even if you don't,[br]the 30-second introduction is 0:00:15.531,0:00:19.734 infoboxes are what you normally see[br]when you look at an article in Wikipedia, 0:00:19.734,0:00:22.315 in the upper right hand corner[br]and it probably tries to give you 0:00:22.315,0:00:24.266 most of the facts about a topic. 0:00:24.266,0:00:27.229 You're starting to see infoboxes more[br]than in just Wikipedia articles. 0:00:27.229,0:00:31.467 If you saw one of our presenters here,[br]Mike Peel, got an award yesterday 0:00:31.467,0:00:34.529 for his work on infoboxes and Commons,[br]and he'll talk about that. 0:00:34.529,0:00:37.109 We're also going to have other folks[br]talk about their experiences 0:00:37.109,0:00:41.219 in implementing infoboxes[br]that are driven by Wikidata. 0:00:41.219,0:00:44.248 So, even without Wikidata[br]as part of the equation, 0:00:44.248,0:00:48.798 there have been some pretty famous,[br]I don't want to say battles, 0:00:48.798,0:00:53.482 but let's say disputes and conflicts[br]between Wikipedia editors 0:00:53.482,0:00:57.815 about the appropriateness of infoboxes[br]and their role in different projects. 0:00:57.815,0:01:02.269 So, we've been having a session like this[br]for the last few years 0:01:02.269,0:01:06.835 talking about what the interaction[br]should be between our communities 0:01:06.835,0:01:10.324 in Wikidata and Wikipedia[br]and Commons and other places. 0:01:10.324,0:01:14.166 So, hopefully this will give you[br]a pretty good set of views 0:01:14.166,0:01:17.222 on where things are right now[br]and where they're going, 0:01:17.222,0:01:20.982 from Wikipedia editions[br]that are heavily using infoboxes 0:01:20.982,0:01:23.226 and ones that are a little bit[br]more reluctant to do that. 0:01:23.226,0:01:27.771 So we have our presenters today,[br]Harmonia, Tpt, Amador and Mike Peel. 0:01:27.771,0:01:30.031 So, we're going to start with Harmonia,[br]is that right? 0:01:30.031,0:01:31.755 - Or Tpt and Harmonia?[br]- Yes, both of us. 0:01:31.755,0:01:34.147 - We’re presenting together. [br]- Okay very good, thank you. 0:01:34.147,0:01:37.983 And they'll introduce themselves [br]and talk about their infobox story. 0:01:39.114,0:01:40.179 Hi, everyone. 0:01:40.179,0:01:43.671 So I am Harmonia Amanda,[br]I don't have my name tag. 0:01:44.366,0:01:49.439 I think we have very different[br]expectation and goals 0:01:49.439,0:01:52.339 whether we are really small communities,[br]bigger communities 0:01:52.339,0:01:56.522 or the really, really big communities[br]like Commons and everything. 0:01:56.522,0:02:02.200 What Tpt and I are working on are,[br]Automatic Wikidata Infoboxes 0:02:02.200,0:02:04.650 for really, really small Wikipedias. 0:02:04.650,0:02:08.702 So Wikipedias without anyone[br]knowing LUA in their community 0:02:08.702,0:02:14.478 or really--or not having regular workshops[br]or nobody meeting up in real life 0:02:14.478,0:02:17.508 like the really, really small communities. 0:02:17.508,0:02:21.628 And Tpt will start[br]with the technical side of it. 0:02:21.628,0:02:25.772 Yes, so, what we wanted to have[br]is templates without-- 0:02:25.772,0:02:29.670 It's for very small Wikis, so without [br]having to do any work, saying, 0:02:29.670,0:02:32.447 "Hey, we want to have an infobox[br]about a person. 0:02:32.447,0:02:35.596 Where should we display the birthdate[br]and the birthdays?" 0:02:35.596,0:02:38.877 It's a piece on [inaudible] [br]on Wikidata and so on. 0:02:38.877,0:02:44.136 So maybe something that is fully automated[br]and just works, you just have to copy 0:02:45.086,0:02:47.614 a LUA module on your Wiki[br]and then the templates 0:02:47.614,0:02:49.912 according to the LUA module[br]and then it should just work 0:02:49.912,0:02:52.220 without any configuration. 0:02:52.220,0:02:54.977 And so it's what we did,[br]so it's basically a single LUA module 0:02:54.977,0:02:58.658 with something like 200 lines of LUA. 0:02:59.268,0:03:02.995 The only configuration we have in this[br]is just a list of properties 0:03:02.995,0:03:04.544 we don't want to display. 0:03:04.544,0:03:07.545 So it's mostly it's properties that[br]are internal to Wikimedia projects 0:03:07.545,0:03:13.115 and then it creates an infobox from this[br]based on the Wikidata content. 0:03:13.115,0:03:17.103 So it's already deployed[br]on 13 Wikipedias right now, 0:03:17.103,0:03:18.574 and we call it Databox. 0:03:18.574,0:03:23.970 So there is [inaudible] infobox[br]in one very small Wikipedia. 0:03:23.970,0:03:26.590 Sorry, I don't remember the language. 0:03:26.590,0:03:29.527 - (Harmonia) It's in Hausa.[br]- (Tpt) Thank you. 0:03:29.527,0:03:33.542 So, every some examples you see[br]basically the ideas in infobox is, 0:03:33.542,0:03:35.455 it displays a label 0:03:35.905,0:03:40.908 of the Wikidata item and then you have-- 0:03:40.908,0:03:43.740 if there is an image on the Wikidata[br]you displayed, 0:03:43.740,0:03:49.309 then you have a subtitle[br]with the Wikidata type. 0:03:49.309,0:03:53.004 And then you have the list of properties[br]sorted just like Wikidata. 0:03:53.004,0:03:56.756 And at the end is our geo coordinates,[br]you have a map and that's it. 0:03:56.756,0:03:58.206 So it's very simple. 0:03:58.206,0:04:00.679 And it works for any kind of entities. 0:04:00.679,0:04:03.134 So it's just not [br]for a person, place or such. 0:04:03.134,0:04:05.338 You don't have to configure it.[br]It just works. 0:04:05.338,0:04:07.926 So it's not the nicest infobox. 0:04:07.926,0:04:12.187 But it's very simple and you see it[br]in four different languages. 0:04:13.597,0:04:15.320 I believe it works quite well, 0:04:15.320,0:04:18.350 but there is still a lot of work[br]for languages actually. 0:04:18.350,0:04:23.420 It's to translate the labels[br]and Harmonia's is going to talk about it. 0:04:24.034,0:04:25.144 (Harmonia) Yeah. 0:04:26.624,0:04:30.034 The problem with the infoboxes in general, 0:04:30.034,0:04:33.627 it's what the Indian community talked[br]yesterday in their talk 0:04:33.627,0:04:37.196 so if you want that specific thing[br]you should [inaudible] the stream 0:04:37.196,0:04:39.267 for that presentation they did yesterday. 0:04:39.267,0:04:43.117 Or to fill the knowledge gap in Wikidata. 0:04:43.117,0:04:46.224 And the problem is not [br]the technical part of it. 0:04:46.224,0:04:49.696 It's that if you don't add [br]any labels in your language, 0:04:49.696,0:04:52.742 we will follow the MediaWiki[br]fall back languages 0:04:52.742,0:04:55.656 and at some point,[br]it will end up in English. 0:04:55.656,0:04:59.098 So the problem with these[br]really small communities 0:04:59.098,0:05:04.136 is actually auto-created dynamic[br]to translate things so we can use data 0:05:04.136,0:05:05.244 from Wikidata. 0:05:05.244,0:05:09.528 And that's in auto-create[br]your own community rules. 0:05:09.528,0:05:14.297 So on the 13 Wikipedias,[br]we have very different usables. 0:05:14.297,0:05:19.556 So we have Wikipedia, we make the choice[br]to only have the infoboxes in drafts. 0:05:19.556,0:05:21.786 So you have the data,[br]you can write the article 0:05:21.786,0:05:24.293 but you don't see it on the main space. 0:05:24.293,0:05:26.411 You have Wikipedia who makes the choice, 0:05:26.411,0:05:30.349 "Hey, if two third of the infobox[br]is in my language, 0:05:30.349,0:05:34.078 then I want it on the main space[br]and so I know 0:05:34.078,0:05:38.897 which, what do I need to translate,"[br]and their Wikipedia would trust 0:05:38.897,0:05:42.387 only infoboxes entirely[br]in their languages. 0:05:42.387,0:05:47.964 So the idea is to start [br]with labelathons 0:05:47.964,0:05:52.104 so you can use--you can,[br]oh, this next slide. 0:05:52.864,0:05:54.526 Oh, no it's-- 0:05:54.526,0:05:55.646 Yeah, sorry. 0:05:55.646,0:06:01.500 You can see on the side we made[br]a SPARQL query for the Hausa Wikipedia 0:06:01.500,0:06:07.330 for the most used properties on Wikidata[br]which don't have labels in Hausa. 0:06:07.330,0:06:11.520 And you can see, that the first property[br]is language used 0:06:11.520,0:06:16.157 which is not that much used on Wikidata 0:06:16.157,0:06:18.947 because they translated everything else. 0:06:18.947,0:06:23.019 And that was not that much [br]an amount of work. 0:06:23.019,0:06:25.997 So you can start small, build a community, 0:06:25.997,0:06:28.247 start using data on Wikidata. 0:06:28.247,0:06:32.807 And if you have a bigger community,[br]you want infoboxes while doing 0:06:32.807,0:06:38.774 cooler things than that[br]and that's the Catalan projects. 0:06:40.364,0:06:43.544 - (Harmonia) And that's yours.[br]- (Amador) Thank you, thank you. 0:06:44.613,0:06:45.933 First of all-- 0:06:47.213,0:06:48.860 (applause) 0:06:52.141,0:06:54.881 First of all, I apologize for my English. 0:06:54.881,0:06:59.505 If you are expert in rare languages, 0:06:59.505,0:07:01.429 this is your opportunity. 0:07:02.464,0:07:05.654 While I will talk about two things[br]that are infoboxes, 0:07:05.654,0:07:06.856 but... 0:07:08.418,0:07:10.898 several infoboxes and our [inaudible] 0:07:10.898,0:07:13.876 and you can play with them. 0:07:13.876,0:07:18.262 And I prepared an analysis[br]that you can see in the presentation. 0:07:18.262,0:07:23.939 In order to play, I show some[br]but no standard in the process-- 0:07:23.939,0:07:26.819 in the look and feel but in the process. 0:07:26.819,0:07:30.179 We started three years ago, 0:07:30.179,0:07:34.513 where we implemented[br]Wikidata in--Wikidata-- 0:07:34.513,0:07:38.127 inside the infoboxes. 0:07:38.497,0:07:41.854 Our objectives were these,[br]take advantage of Wikidata 0:07:41.854,0:07:45.051 in that moment was emerging. 0:07:45.051,0:07:49.265 Use these skills as harmonized 0:07:49.265,0:07:53.235 the skins of the layout... 0:07:54.846,0:08:00.119 Reduce the obsolescence of the information[br]because everything was manual parameters 0:08:00.119,0:08:06.320 and avoid particular solutions[br]because there are millions more templates, 0:08:06.320,0:08:07.320 it's easier, 0:08:07.320,0:08:11.852 and everybody has its own[br]template for its own article, 0:08:11.852,0:08:15.767 and well, we have thousands of articles 0:08:15.767,0:08:17.606 with a--Sorry. 0:08:17.606,0:08:22.155 Those itself infoboxes[br]with just 10, 20 articles. 0:08:23.091,0:08:28.761 The problems are these, [br]the people doesn't trust in the Wikidata 0:08:29.293,0:08:31.503 doesn't want to change, 0:08:31.612,0:08:34.752 and they want to maintain 0:08:34.752,0:08:39.914 typical or local information[br]that is not in Wikidata. 0:08:42.059,0:08:45.199 Now three years, three years after, 0:08:46.498,0:08:51.568 the solutions that we applied[br]and the state of the art that we have 0:08:51.568,0:08:56.820 is, we say, "Okay, we will keep[br]the manual parameters, 0:08:56.820,0:08:58.012 if you wish." 0:08:58.012,0:09:02.528 But as Wikidata gets the information, 0:09:02.528,0:09:07.188 I will erase the manual parameter[br]because you don't need it. 0:09:07.188,0:09:08.256 Okay. 0:09:08.868,0:09:12.112 Now 80%--82% 0:09:12.112,0:09:15.451 of all Wikipedia articles 0:09:15.451,0:09:19.722 have a Wikidata infobox. 0:09:20.232,0:09:25.837 Sixty percent of the articles have [br]just the call to the template 0:09:25.837,0:09:28.751 without any other manual parameters. 0:09:30.172,0:09:35.181 We agree 90% of the all the articles 0:09:35.181,0:09:38.461 have the harmonizing and some 0:09:38.461,0:09:41.131 similar skill and look and feel. 0:09:43.263,0:09:45.823 When the [inaudible] language changes[br]the priority we say, 0:09:45.823,0:09:51.315 manual is before the Wikidata[br]but in some moment we say, 0:09:51.315,0:09:53.255 this manual probably is absolute. 0:09:53.255,0:09:56.828 So we will change the priority. 0:09:59.672,0:10:05.813 This is a question about[br]there's an exclusion I need, I want to-- 0:10:05.813,0:10:09.976 I believe that it's important[br]to have too many infoboxes 0:10:09.976,0:10:12.012 or he has one infobox. 0:10:12.962,0:10:16.870 Well, we believe that it's important[br]to have one infobox for each, 0:10:16.870,0:10:18.072 great concept. 0:10:18.072,0:10:20.348 A person, a building[br]or something like this 0:10:20.348,0:10:22.657 but not one for its kind 0:10:22.657,0:10:26.215 or one for all kinds of solutions. 0:10:27.145,0:10:30.865 This is our figures,[br]the important thing is this-- 0:10:31.445,0:10:34.265 this is with four infoboxes 0:10:34.265,0:10:38.497 we cover 50% of four articles. 0:10:38.497,0:10:40.869 With four infoboxes, 0:10:40.869,0:10:44.229 we cover [inaudible] % more. 0:10:45.287,0:10:50.162 And with all, we cover 80%. 0:10:51.104,0:10:55.806 Look at that long tail that we can--[br]we have no solution 0:10:55.806,0:10:58.746 because they are very specific 0:10:58.746,0:11:02.887 is 83 infoboxes 0:11:02.887,0:11:05.107 only four cover 9%. 0:11:05.107,0:11:09.737 So the most important, if you [br][inaudible] for these options, 0:11:09.737,0:11:11.721 you have a great cover. 0:11:12.611,0:11:15.781 The look and feel of the infoboxes[br]is like this. 0:11:15.781,0:11:18.517 You have here and another is... 0:11:19.760,0:11:21.319 to arrive 0:11:21.319,0:11:24.852 and these infoboxes are multilingual 0:11:24.852,0:11:26.442 and respond to-- 0:11:26.442,0:11:29.447 you can explain the--[br]can tell them the parameter-- 0:11:29.447,0:11:31.154 the language in two ways. 0:11:31.154,0:11:35.415 One is when the preferences[br]of the Wikipedia, 0:11:36.858,0:11:40.538 or if you don't want[br]to follow the preferences, 0:11:40.538,0:11:42.355 and will force another language, 0:11:42.355,0:11:45.277 you can call the template 0:11:45.807,0:11:50.166 with the parameter of line, equal[br]and the language you wish. 0:11:51.868,0:11:56.478 All the translations[br]are made via Wikidata labels. 0:11:56.959,0:11:58.399 So, when-- 0:11:59.020,0:12:02.560 Let me show one example of-- 0:12:12.050,0:12:13.280 if some-- 0:12:14.314,0:12:16.884 if your label doesn't exist[br]in your language 0:12:16.884,0:12:20.511 in Wikidata-- 0:12:20.511,0:12:23.011 it appears not in this case, sorry. 0:12:23.011,0:12:24.959 It appears here, a pencil, 0:12:25.670,0:12:30.210 and you push the pencil and it goes[br]to Wikidata in order to enter the label, 0:12:30.210,0:12:32.305 and then it's running. 0:12:37.996,0:12:39.006 Yes. 0:12:39.323,0:12:40.793 Ten seconds. 0:12:44.413,0:12:45.873 What is our current goals? 0:12:45.873,0:12:50.763 We have a solution implemented[br]in our Wikipedia. 0:12:51.310,0:12:54.500 The community, right, is happy. 0:12:54.930,0:12:59.261 And no one thinks again[br]in the old solutions. 0:12:59.591,0:13:04.478 So as a WIkidata team told me 0:13:06.221,0:13:11.710 [inaudible] before. 0:13:12.866,0:13:14.506 It's live at the talk in Catalan. 0:13:14.506,0:13:19.170 So, I translate, I change it [br]to be multilingual 0:13:19.896,0:13:24.386 and now this solution is near[br]to be a plug and play 0:13:24.386,0:13:27.339 in any other Wikipedia. 0:13:27.339,0:13:28.764 Until now, 0:13:29.124,0:13:33.706 other languages, copy it or Wiki model 0:13:33.706,0:13:34.743 and... 0:13:35.766,0:13:40.487 infoboxes but no were multilingual, 0:13:40.487,0:13:42.207 they need to translate 0:13:42.207,0:13:46.707 and then they have their own copy[br]and launch the synchronizing 0:13:46.707,0:13:48.568 with our revolution. 0:13:48.898,0:13:51.234 But now, this is not necessary 0:13:51.234,0:13:55.074 or if you made this kind of migration 0:13:55.074,0:13:56.714 and don't touch 0:13:56.714,0:13:59.941 or every [inaudible] with it, 0:13:59.941,0:14:01.981 we--sorry-- 0:14:01.981,0:14:03.606 every update with it. 0:14:04.289,0:14:05.289 You are good. 0:14:05.289,0:14:06.396 Okay. 0:14:07.373,0:14:12.768 And Mr. Mike Peel. to explain enwp. 0:14:12.768,0:14:15.158 (applause) 0:14:17.908,0:14:19.838 (Mike) Okay, I've just got[br]a couple of slides 0:14:19.838,0:14:22.968 and one on Commons,[br]one on English Wikipedia. 0:14:22.968,0:14:24.641 So the first is on Commons. 0:14:24.641,0:14:27.792 So this is a single infobox. 0:14:27.792,0:14:31.264 It's actually two infoboxes,[br]it's separate in what's coded for people 0:14:31.264,0:14:32.562 and for everything else. 0:14:32.562,0:14:35.023 But it generally works[br]for every single topic. 0:14:35.023,0:14:38.897 And it's deployed on Commons[br]where it's a very different community 0:14:38.897,0:14:40.152 from most Wikipedias 0:14:40.152,0:14:43.218 that it needs to be multilingual[br]out-of-the-box. 0:14:43.218,0:14:45.740 So you need to be able to change[br]the language, if you interface 0:14:45.740,0:14:49.433 and everything changes in the infobox,[br]which Wikidata lets you do. 0:14:49.433,0:14:53.588 So before this, before WIkidata,[br]Commons did not really have infoboxes 0:14:53.588,0:14:56.252 in categories, now it can. 0:14:56.924,0:14:59.134 It's currently deployed[br]in about two and a half million, 0:14:59.134,0:15:01.749 not quite two and a half million[br]but hopefully in a few weeks time 0:15:01.749,0:15:03.039 we'll get there. 0:15:03.039,0:15:05.674 And that's had about seven million[br]Common categories so we're less 0:15:05.674,0:15:08.170 than halfway to go actually [br]and so please keep adding it 0:15:08.170,0:15:10.682 if you spot a category without it. 0:15:12.052,0:15:15.402 It tries to add everything it can,[br]which is useful but try to do it 0:15:15.402,0:15:17.708 in as compact form as possible 0:15:17.708,0:15:20.588 because you don't want to take up[br]space because the main thing of Commons 0:15:20.588,0:15:21.743 is all the media files. 0:15:21.743,0:15:24.812 So you want to highlight those,[br]and then this infobox gives you 0:15:24.812,0:15:27.633 additional context on the topic[br]down the side. 0:15:27.633,0:15:30.395 And so it shows, the image it shows, 0:15:30.395,0:15:33.800 the main properties[br]and map of where it is. 0:15:34.530,0:15:37.424 Importantly it links to tools,[br]which you might find useful at the bottom. 0:15:37.424,0:15:41.330 So things like, Wiki Shoot Me![br]to find nearby pictures 0:15:42.080,0:15:43.872 and other things like that. 0:15:44.766,0:15:46.846 It's something[br]that can work on other Wikis. 0:15:46.846,0:15:48.361 It's not very portable. 0:15:48.361,0:15:51.121 It relies on about half of dozen[br]different templates 0:15:51.121,0:15:53.163 and LUA codes at the moment. 0:15:53.163,0:15:55.468 I'm hoping to compact that,[br]so it is more portable 0:15:55.468,0:15:57.839 so you can use it elsewhere, if you want. 0:15:57.839,0:16:00.658 It's now set up so that[br]the main template is actually 0:16:00.658,0:16:02.522 a configuration template. 0:16:02.522,0:16:04.844 So you can say we want 0:16:04.844,0:16:07.683 the width of this to be 200 pixels[br]or 300 pixels, 0:16:07.683,0:16:09.285 you can define that in here. 0:16:09.285,0:16:12.055 You can say, "We want a map,[br]we want this coordinate system." 0:16:12.055,0:16:16.000 So it's got some flexibility[br]to cope with and different cases. 0:16:16.000,0:16:18.410 It is actually installed[br]on English Wikipedia 0:16:18.410,0:16:19.730 and you can sort of use it there 0:16:19.730,0:16:22.129 but someone will come along[br]within a few hours and change it 0:16:22.129,0:16:23.567 to a different template, so 0:16:23.567,0:16:26.085 you can see how it looks[br]on English Wikipedia, at least. 0:16:26.085,0:16:28.493 It is also on a few other ones. 0:16:29.280,0:16:32.260 English Wikipedia is a difficult one. 0:16:32.260,0:16:35.430 So it has a lot of existing content. 0:16:35.430,0:16:37.708 The advantage of Commons[br]is there wasn't that much content 0:16:37.708,0:16:39.790 in the categories to start with,[br]so you could go in 0:16:39.790,0:16:41.756 and add a lot more very easily. 0:16:41.756,0:16:44.072 English WIkipedia already has that. 0:16:44.072,0:16:46.614 So if you are using an infobox in Wikidata 0:16:46.614,0:16:48.798 you're normally replacing existing content 0:16:48.798,0:16:50.778 and editors don't like that. 0:16:50.778,0:16:53.298 There also seems to be a feeling[br]that in the English Wikipedia 0:16:53.298,0:16:55.236 it can act as a check against Wikidata. 0:16:55.236,0:16:57.953 So if you keep things independent,[br]than you can cross check 0:16:57.953,0:17:01.383 and catch vandalism,[br]which sort of works as long you don't mind 0:17:01.383,0:17:05.523 all the extra burden of having to handle[br]two lots of the same data. 0:17:05.523,0:17:07.272 One in a structured form,[br]which is lovely 0:17:07.272,0:17:09.559 and one in an unstructured form[br]which is a pain. 0:17:10.192,0:17:12.132 There's also a lot more[br]different templates. 0:17:12.132,0:17:15.631 So there's about hundred templates[br]that infobox templates are used 0:17:15.631,0:17:16.758 in Wikidata at the moment. 0:17:16.758,0:17:18.733 That's out of thousands[br]on English Wikipedia. 0:17:18.733,0:17:21.460 Converting all those[br]will take a long time. 0:17:21.460,0:17:25.300 There's about 2,000 infoboxes[br]that are entirely drawn from Wikidata 0:17:25.300,0:17:28.736 which is a small fraction[br]of the number of articles there but... 0:17:29.946,0:17:32.604 It's been a long way to get there. 0:17:32.604,0:17:35.752 And it's lot more demanding[br]on, again, exactly like formatting 0:17:35.752,0:17:37.998 so you can't have anything[br]which doesn't look quite right 0:17:37.998,0:17:39.754 or show cue numbers[br]and things like that. 0:17:39.754,0:17:41.229 You've got to have local override. 0:17:41.229,0:17:44.617 You've got to make sure[br]you only showing referenced information. 0:17:44.617,0:17:48.671 All of that is built into the code[br]which underlays these infoboxes 0:17:48.671,0:17:51.533 which is WikidataIB, which is [br]what Doug Taylor's been working on, 0:17:51.533,0:17:53.209 user access. 0:17:53.209,0:17:55.219 And you can use that, it's very modular. 0:17:55.219,0:17:57.467 So each bit of the infobox[br]is constructed separately, 0:17:57.467,0:18:00.776 so you don't even need to know[br]LUA to create these infoboxes. 0:18:00.776,0:18:03.833 I don't really know LUA at all, so. 0:18:03.833,0:18:07.833 You can just use the existing[br]templates structure to do that. 0:18:07.833,0:18:11.299 Which makes it quite nice to deploy[br]and to fiddle around with. 0:18:12.376,0:18:14.146 Yeah, that's basically all I've got. 0:18:14.146,0:18:16.981 So most of the session, hopefully[br]will be questions from you 0:18:16.981,0:18:18.581 and hopefully, we can give some answers. 0:18:18.581,0:18:19.997 Thanks for listening. 0:18:19.997,0:18:22.153 (applause) 0:18:23.598,0:18:26.238 (Andrew) Let's make sure we have[br]both microphones working here. 0:18:26.238,0:18:28.358 You want to test that, make sure it works. 0:18:29.538,0:18:31.321 Does that microphone work? 0:18:31.767,0:18:33.107 Second one? 0:18:33.857,0:18:34.924 - Does it work?[br]- Testing. 0:18:34.924,0:18:35.925 - Yeah.[br]- Great. 0:18:35.925,0:18:37.085 Alright, great. 0:18:37.085,0:18:38.906 Well we love to hear some questions[br]and also, 0:18:38.906,0:18:40.881 if you've had experiences[br]with information boxes 0:18:40.881,0:18:41.997 and other communities, 0:18:41.997,0:18:43.574 we'd love to hear that, so. 0:18:44.234,0:18:47.467 (audience 1) Yeah, my case has more WIki. 0:18:47.467,0:18:50.493 And we have 10 to 25 editors. 0:18:50.493,0:18:54.881 So, do I need to know LUA 0:18:54.881,0:18:57.141 to implement Wikidata template? 0:18:58.161,0:19:01.784 (Amador) To whom? To me? 0:19:02.358,0:19:03.718 (audience 1) To all the people. 0:19:03.718,0:19:05.937 Anybody can answer, that's okay. 0:19:05.937,0:19:07.107 (Harmonia) Okay. 0:19:07.107,0:19:10.511 That's actually why we made[br]three presentations in one in that, 0:19:10.511,0:19:15.014 if nobody in your community[br]can do any LUA work at all 0:19:15.014,0:19:18.764 then the solution is the one[br]Tpt and I made. 0:19:19.264,0:19:21.180 But this one is 0:19:21.660,0:19:25.503 you can't easily make[br]your own preferences. 0:19:25.503,0:19:28.382 So we deal with all the technical parts. 0:19:28.382,0:19:30.484 But there is drawback to that. 0:19:30.484,0:19:32.866 If you have someone locally,[br]who can say, 0:19:32.866,0:19:38.303 "Eh, this looks good but we have actually[br]this kind of problem in all language." 0:19:38.303,0:19:42.523 Like for example, we have problems[br]with gender language 0:19:42.523,0:19:44.744 which are not shown female labels 0:19:44.744,0:19:48.637 which is actually not[br]a complicated thing to find in LUA 0:19:48.637,0:19:52.787 but you need to know[br]the LUA codes to find that. 0:19:53.237,0:19:57.601 So someone who doesn't know your language[br]won't think of that 0:19:57.601,0:20:01.711 if they are coming from a language[br]which doesn't have this problem. 0:20:01.711,0:20:03.866 So see if you have someone who know LUA, 0:20:03.866,0:20:07.363 you can make more personalization[br]to have something 0:20:07.363,0:20:10.420 which looks better on your Wikipedia, 0:20:10.420,0:20:13.085 which is what[br]the Catalan Wikipedia is doing. 0:20:13.085,0:20:16.569 They have skin layouts which are really... 0:20:17.399,0:20:21.095 integrated with the rest[br]of the layout of Wikipedia 0:20:21.095,0:20:24.904 which you can't do[br]when you don't know any LUA at all. 0:20:24.904,0:20:27.450 But you have different kinds of solution, 0:20:27.450,0:20:31.228 depending on what[br]your community is right now. 0:20:34.726,0:20:36.946 (audience 1) Can I copy the code, 0:20:36.946,0:20:42.175 which is already there[br]in Catalan Wikipedia to my Wikipedia, 0:20:42.175,0:20:46.595 the code, to make a new template[br]or something like that? 0:20:48.982,0:20:52.572 Actually our solutions has two labels. 0:20:52.572,0:20:55.500 The model Wikidata, 0:20:55.500,0:20:58.174 that they say is able to handle the access 0:20:59.054,0:21:01.909 to the Wikidata and recovery 0:21:01.909,0:21:05.023 [inaudible] values,[br][inaudible] values, qualifiers and so. 0:21:05.023,0:21:08.954 And the level presentation,[br]the presentation level 0:21:08.954,0:21:12.781 that is made by Wiki template[br]is in Wikicode, okay. 0:21:12.781,0:21:18.067 So, our model now is running in seven[br]or eight WIkipedia difference, 0:21:18.067,0:21:21.719 that they have their own solutions, 0:21:21.719,0:21:25.858 call it this model[br]but the presentation is their own. 0:21:25.858,0:21:26.878 Okay. 0:21:26.878,0:21:31.006 If you have some solution like this,[br]you can get the old model. 0:21:31.596,0:21:35.203 However, if you don't have[br]a good solution in that template 0:21:35.203,0:21:37.018 in the presentation, 0:21:37.018,0:21:40.795 you can take both, a model[br]and other template, okay. 0:21:40.795,0:21:45.375 Because if you get and change[br]the language, change your language, 0:21:45.375,0:21:47.244 it runs immediately. 0:21:47.244,0:21:48.447 Okay. 0:21:48.447,0:21:52.588 (Andrew) So, to be clear your solution[br]is LUA based, you have to take it all, 0:21:52.588,0:21:54.492 you handle all the technical parts. 0:21:54.492,0:21:57.152 But since you have a split in two layers,[br]you can still tweak it 0:21:57.152,0:21:59.142 at the Wikicode level to customize it. 0:21:59.142,0:22:00.483 Does that make sense? 0:22:00.483,0:22:02.868 We split in two because... 0:22:03.576,0:22:04.656 the number of... 0:22:05.206,0:22:08.426 details able to modify LUA is decreasing. 0:22:08.426,0:22:09.506 (Andrew) Right. 0:22:09.506,0:22:15.691 And we concentrated in a LUA model,[br]everything that is considered 0:22:15.691,0:22:17.961 can be considered a black box. 0:22:17.961,0:22:22.609 And the changes people have[br]is related with the presentation. 0:22:22.609,0:22:27.005 "I don't like this color,[br]I want this upper and this other down," 0:22:27.005,0:22:29.956 all these kind of things[br]is made in templates. 0:22:29.956,0:22:34.100 So I made--I modified the template[br]but there are several editors 0:22:34.100,0:22:36.031 that can modify the templates too. 0:22:36.031,0:22:38.033 (Andrew) Great and then Mike,[br]how does yours-- 0:22:38.033,0:22:40.097 Yeah, but, but...[br](laughter) 0:22:40.097,0:22:41.466 I'm sorry. 0:22:41.466,0:22:42.657 That's the part. 0:22:42.657,0:22:45.909 I think most of the people[br]who are at the WikidataCon 0:22:45.909,0:22:50.819 are actually coming for communities[br]which know Wikicode. 0:22:50.819,0:22:53.729 We made data box for all-- 0:22:53.729,0:22:57.469 especially for African languages[br]but I think it should be in on many 0:22:57.469,0:22:58.707 minority languages. 0:22:58.707,0:23:02.988 But we made that for the [inaudible][br]Wikipedia, for the Hausa Wikipedia 0:23:02.988,0:23:04.870 who are actually on the Hausa Wikipedia. 0:23:04.870,0:23:09.073 Hausa is actually the language[br]spoken by millions of people. 0:23:09.073,0:23:13.930 But the Wikipedia have less[br]than 4,000 articles. 0:23:13.930,0:23:17.140 And they don't have[br]people knowing even Wikicode 0:23:17.140,0:23:20.068 because they are editing[br]by phone and things, so. 0:23:20.068,0:23:25.398 It's like Wikidata describe the projects[br]we presented on the first day 0:23:25.398,0:23:26.448 and everything. 0:23:26.448,0:23:29.354 So the really, really small communities 0:23:29.354,0:23:32.155 have actually really [br]different expectations 0:23:32.155,0:23:36.753 from communities who are actually[br]really Wikipedian already 0:23:36.753,0:23:40.170 and who have their own templates[br]and their own personalization. 0:23:40.170,0:23:44.623 And they want the code[br]but they don't know any code at all. 0:23:44.623,0:23:47.818 (Andrew) Right, right, [br]that's great. Mike. 0:23:47.818,0:23:50.247 The ones on Commons and English Wikipedias 0:23:50.247,0:23:52.047 tend to build up using WikidataIB 0:23:52.047,0:23:54.557 so that there's the individual parameters[br]that you fetch. 0:23:54.557,0:23:58.635 And that's all in LUA but then[br]you're calling that from the Wiki text. 0:23:58.635,0:24:00.026 So I don't know LUA. 0:24:00.026,0:24:03.190 So all those infoboxes--these all[br]are constructed in Wikitext 0:24:03.190,0:24:04.413 and that's possible. 0:24:04.413,0:24:07.098 The good thing with all these[br]different combinations is you can pick 0:24:07.098,0:24:08.898 which one you like the best[br]and just use that. 0:24:08.898,0:24:11.114 Or you use multiple ones on the same Wiki. 0:24:11.114,0:24:12.732 Or--yeah. 0:24:12.732,0:24:14.688 It's all drawing information[br]from the same place 0:24:14.688,0:24:15.839 that's the important thing. 0:24:15.839,0:24:17.553 So we all share the same data set. 0:24:17.553,0:24:20.398 If [inaudible] a little. 0:24:20.398,0:24:24.278 So you have a lot of people[br]that knows LUA or Wikicode, 0:24:24.278,0:24:25.429 it doesn't matter. 0:24:25.429,0:24:30.681 If you have a low people able to do that,[br]you must choose 0:24:30.681,0:24:33.031 the better solution for you. 0:24:33.031,0:24:35.511 (Andrew) It's amazing how far[br]we've come in the last two years. 0:24:35.511,0:24:38.863 That we actually have a choice[br]of a really good solutions, that's great. 0:24:38.863,0:24:40.687 (Danny) Hi, thank you. 0:24:40.687,0:24:43.480 I'm Danny,[br]I'm from the Wikimedia Foundation. 0:24:43.408,0:24:48.540 I think that there are actually[br]some problems that need to get solved 0:24:49.140,0:24:51.790 in regards to the distrust[br]that Wikipedians have 0:24:51.790,0:24:54.994 that are on the Wikidata side[br]and not on the Wikipedia side. 0:24:54.994,0:24:56.893 So it's not just about[br]resistance of change. 0:24:56.893,0:24:58.379 I will tell you a story. 0:24:58.379,0:25:02.305 I was talking to Lydia[br]at Wikimedia about this 0:25:02.305,0:25:04.598 and sort of walked [br]through a little scenario. 0:25:04.918,0:25:07.588 Because we were in Stockholm,[br]we tried--the examples that we used 0:25:07.588,0:25:09.187 was the population of Stockholm. 0:25:09.187,0:25:13.637 So let's say I'm from English Wikipedia,[br]and I say that it's x million. 0:25:14.077,0:25:17.501 And then I come back later and I see[br]that that has been changed to y million 0:25:17.501,0:25:18.872 because it's-- 0:25:19.225,0:25:22.543 that was done by somebody[br]on another Wikipedia in another language. 0:25:22.813,0:25:27.453 How do I know where that comes from[br]and who did it and what the source was? 0:25:27.941,0:25:31.461 So I click through[br]to get to the Wikidata item 0:25:32.027,0:25:34.327 and then looked at that property 0:25:34.327,0:25:37.558 and it actually turned out[br]that somebody had very recently-- 0:25:37.558,0:25:38.718 this was a coincidence, 0:25:38.718,0:25:41.532 but somebody had very recently[br]had changed the population of Stockholm. 0:25:41.532,0:25:45.166 And the source that they used[br]led to a 404 error. 0:25:46.295,0:25:48.415 So in other words I can't-- 0:25:48.415,0:25:53.380 And that person spoke German,[br]and so it would be difficult for me 0:25:53.380,0:25:55.810 to talk to the person, asked them like, 0:25:55.810,0:25:58.592 "What kind of source was that?[br]Why did that change? 0:25:58.592,0:26:01.340 Is that actually an update[br]or is it just a mistake?" 0:26:01.340,0:26:04.767 So I said like,[br]I know this is a coincidence, 0:26:04.767,0:26:06.537 like I just happened to pick this example 0:26:06.537,0:26:11.252 but 100% of the things I tried[br]have this problem. 0:26:12.242,0:26:15.203 And that's a really difficult thing[br]to figure out. 0:26:15.203,0:26:20.932 And there's other problems with references[br]on Wikidata as well. 0:26:21.102,0:26:23.752 There's tainted references[br]like Lydia spoke about earlier, 0:26:23.752,0:26:25.934 but there's also circular references, 0:26:25.934,0:26:30.408 where I believe a lot[br]of the initial import came from Wikipedias 0:26:30.408,0:26:33.352 and so the source just says[br]Italian Wikipedia. 0:26:33.352,0:26:35.536 And that's a thing, though. 0:26:35.536,0:26:39.911 Like I know that everybody knows,[br]but that's an actual real thing. 0:26:40.247,0:26:41.877 We can't have it 0:26:42.623,0:26:47.053 on the big WIkipedias[br]that the infobox for every page 0:26:47.594,0:26:49.220 doesn't have sources anymore. 0:26:49.220,0:26:53.184 It's just like from Italian--[br]like Italian Wikipedia is sourcing itself. 0:26:53.184,0:26:55.434 - Can I answer some of that?[br]- (Danny) Yes, please do. 0:26:55.434,0:26:57.843 And so looking at[br]the English Wikipedia infoboxes, 0:26:57.843,0:27:00.242 they aren't referenced.[br](laughter) 0:27:00.242,0:27:01.487 That's kind of a problem. 0:27:01.487,0:27:03.099 So you need to look into the-- 0:27:03.099,0:27:04.707 (Andrew) You need traditional infoboxes. 0:27:04.707,0:27:06.719 Traditional infoboxes,[br]not the Wikidata ones. 0:27:06.719,0:27:08.669 Forget the Wikidata ones here. 0:27:08.669,0:27:10.669 If you want to find out[br]where the information is, 0:27:10.669,0:27:12.949 in the infobox you need to look[br]through the whole article 0:27:12.949,0:27:14.956 and find it and pull it out[br]and that's difficult. 0:27:14.956,0:27:16.298 Wikidata does support references. 0:27:16.298,0:27:18.265 We need to use those more. 0:27:18.265,0:27:21.300 And in particular, when you're importing[br]on the English Wikipedia, 0:27:21.300,0:27:23.464 you only import referenced information 0:27:23.464,0:27:27.567 and that's excluding these sources[br]stated in English Wikipedia. 0:27:27.567,0:27:28.635 That's ignored. 0:27:29.248,0:27:31.878 So it's only if it's a good reference,[br]then it's used. 0:27:31.878,0:27:33.476 So there's some ways of doing that, 0:27:33.476,0:27:37.479 but Wikidata does have a long way to go[br]before everything is referenced. 0:27:38.817,0:27:42.937 And I think there is a bias here[br]on the English Wikipedia 0:27:42.937,0:27:45.456 in that it's the biggest Wikipedia[br]which is... 0:27:46.622,0:27:48.372 with more information. 0:27:48.372,0:27:51.620 But we actually run through[br]with the same problem 0:27:51.620,0:27:52.930 on the French Wikipedia 0:27:52.930,0:27:55.020 when we started, we automated infoboxes 0:27:55.020,0:27:57.237 and people start following. 0:27:57.237,0:28:01.161 When there is discrepancies[br]between Wikidata and Wikipedia, 0:28:01.161,0:28:02.790 which one is right? 0:28:02.790,0:28:05.883 And it was 90% Wikidata. 0:28:05.883,0:28:11.502 So Wikidata was way better than Wikipedia[br]and we supported wrong information, 0:28:11.502,0:28:14.715 obsolete information and everything[br]that nobody on Wikipedia 0:28:14.715,0:28:16.519 had supported for years. 0:28:16.519,0:28:20.846 So I think the numbers are less[br]for the English Wikipedia 0:28:20.846,0:28:22.153 than for other Wikipedias. 0:28:22.153,0:28:24.786 But the French Wikipedia[br]is not a small one, 0:28:24.786,0:28:27.123 but Wikidata was way better. 0:28:27.783,0:28:30.806 So I think it's not 90%[br]for the English Wikipedia, 0:28:30.806,0:28:35.005 but I think when these discrepancies[br]and we have tools to do that. 0:28:35.005,0:28:40.306 Like, hey, this manual value is [br]conflicting with the value from Wikidata. 0:28:41.576,0:28:43.976 When these semantic templates 0:28:43.976,0:28:48.145 on the code like for tables of... 0:28:48.845,0:28:51.532 population which you have in tables, 0:28:51.532,0:28:54.625 which are sometimes depending[br]on the article 0:28:54.625,0:28:57.722 as with semantic marker. 0:28:57.722,0:29:00.134 You can use the semantic marker[br]and say, 0:29:00.134,0:29:03.501 the value are from infobox is not-- 0:29:03.501,0:29:08.135 So we have technical means[br]to track some of that 0:29:08.135,0:29:12.255 and to put this[br]where it's originating from. 0:29:12.255,0:29:17.191 We did that, welcome to French Wikipedia[br]and Wikidata statistically is right. 0:29:18.056,0:29:20.806 But on the English Wikipedia,[br]I think it's a little less. 0:29:20.806,0:29:25.488 But I think it's actually a good thing[br]to have a way to spot 0:29:25.488,0:29:29.302 that there is a discrepancy[br]and a reference problem. 0:29:29.302,0:29:33.246 And yeah, Mike Peel said that unless[br]it's the biggest Wikipedia, 0:29:33.246,0:29:36.509 we only use reference statements[br]and the import 0:29:36.509,0:29:41.952 from stating with Italian Wikipedia[br]are not considered as references. 0:29:41.952,0:29:44.682 (Andrew) It's kind of a relic[br]of the initial import that we did, 0:29:44.682,0:29:47.081 but you're right it's not acceptable[br]as a reference statement 0:29:47.081,0:29:49.121 and most people are trying[br]to get rid of those. 0:29:49.121,0:29:52.078 (Danny) Yes, it's just [br]that it just needs... 0:29:52.697,0:29:54.932 (Andrew) You need, you need-- 0:29:54.932,0:29:58.752 (Danny) That's a problem that needs[br]a strategy on Wikidata. 0:29:58.752,0:30:03.507 Like how are we going to clean that up[br]in different references? 0:30:03.507,0:30:04.513 I agree. 0:30:04.513,0:30:06.987 But this is out of this presentation, no? 0:30:06.987,0:30:08.644 What's your proposal? 0:30:09.086,0:30:10.306 What do you propose? 0:30:10.306,0:30:12.690 - (Danny) I...[br]- Clean Wikidata? 0:30:12.690,0:30:15.538 - Close Wikidata? I don't know.[br]- (Danny) I just wanted to point out 0:30:15.538,0:30:18.253 that the distrust by people[br]on some of the big Wikis 0:30:18.253,0:30:22.429 is actually based on real concerns[br]about references that-- 0:30:22.429,0:30:28.587 Yeah, that's-- the references problem[br]starts in 2013 because the references 0:30:28.587,0:30:32.787 on Wikidata was new and we couldn't deal[br]with complicated references 0:30:32.787,0:30:35.171 at the time like technically[br]on the Wikidata side. 0:30:35.171,0:30:38.159 So we had like very bare references, 0:30:38.159,0:30:42.067 and I think some Wikipedians[br]are still stuck on that 0:30:42.067,0:30:45.877 but Wikidata is in 2019 now. 0:30:45.877,0:30:48.085 And we have good references[br]on many things. 0:30:48.085,0:30:49.932 (Andrew) We're going to go[br]to the next question 0:30:49.932,0:30:52.212 but just to make sure people know,[br]I think a lot of people 0:30:52.212,0:30:54.012 in English Wikipedia[br]and other large languages 0:30:54.012,0:30:55.762 that are resistant [br]to some to some of this, 0:30:55.762,0:30:57.795 they'd make the argument that[br]an error in Wikidata 0:30:57.795,0:31:00.661 is magnified by these infoboxes. 0:31:00.661,0:31:03.960 But the number of fact checkers[br]is also magnified, right. 0:31:03.960,0:31:06.461 So you see it as both ways[br]like if you have one place 0:31:06.461,0:31:08.558 to fact check and reference,[br]you solve the problem 0:31:08.558,0:31:12.442 for hundreds of editions[br]at the same time, right, so. 0:31:13.930,0:31:17.350 (audience 2) Okay, so[br]with the previous topic 0:31:17.350,0:31:21.706 about how to implement data, [br]we in the Basque-- 0:31:21.706,0:31:26.110 we in the Basque Wikipedia,[br]we adopted the Catalan system. 0:31:26.926,0:31:31.606 Aside maybe from scratch,[br]when you do something incrementally 0:31:31.606,0:31:34.079 as the Catalans did, it's a lot of work 0:31:34.079,0:31:36.760 but I say this is from scratch, 0:31:37.580,0:31:40.874 I notice how long it took 0:31:40.874,0:31:43.090 for me to do that. 0:31:43.090,0:31:48.492 So if you go to Wikidata,[br]you have the acronym of O, 0:31:48.492,0:31:54.694 [inaudible], as one hour[br]Wikidata template system 0:31:54.694,0:31:59.728 or a fully automatic system[br]and is actually one hour. 0:32:00.058,0:32:03.748 it's telling everything you need[br]for a template to work. 0:32:03.748,0:32:07.989 One, I mean, or biography[br]or city or one of them. 0:32:07.989,0:32:13.283 So implementing the five, six[br]most used templates 0:32:13.283,0:32:16.923 will take you like ten hours of work. 0:32:16.923,0:32:20.225 I mean it's like something[br]you can handle easily 0:32:20.225,0:32:24.047 in one week of volunteering[br]and you have it done. 0:32:24.047,0:32:29.277 So sometimes it's like,[br]"Oh, but we need a lot of templates, 0:32:29.277,0:32:30.491 we need a lot of things." 0:32:30.491,0:32:32.941 It's quite straightforward. 0:32:32.941,0:32:36.161 If you are not at Wikipedia[br]with only ten articles 0:32:36.161,0:32:37.735 and no templates because then you need 0:32:37.735,0:32:40.815 the coordinates, the model of coordinates,[br]these kind of things. 0:32:40.815,0:32:44.757 But if you have some development,[br]it will take like one hour, 0:32:44.757,0:32:48.096 two hours work to do that,[br]it's quite easy. 0:32:48.096,0:32:51.156 And I think the others[br]will be also like one hour, two hours, 0:32:51.156,0:32:53.884 it's not-- maybe yours is 30 minutes. 0:32:53.884,0:32:55.188 It takes about two minutes. 0:32:55.188,0:32:57.358 - (audience 2) That's it, it's quite easy.[br]- (laughter) 0:32:57.358,0:33:02.509 Yeah, what I said with databox[br]is that the problem with databox 0:33:02.509,0:33:03.675 is not installing it. 0:33:03.675,0:33:07.918 It's translating[br]and adding data to Wikidata. 0:33:07.918,0:33:11.334 To have your property in Hausa,[br]that's the work. 0:33:11.334,0:33:13.485 That's not making the infobox. 0:33:13.485,0:33:16.917 It's making the labelathons [br]and the translation and everything. 0:33:16.917,0:33:18.079 That's the work. 0:33:18.079,0:33:21.856 So it's a very different kind of problem[br]than the English Wikipedia, 0:33:21.856,0:33:26.075 where most of the time[br]have the labels or are translated easily. 0:33:28.912,0:33:29.928 (audience 3) Thank you. 0:33:29.928,0:33:34.189 I wanted to make you aware of something[br]that's going to be beneficial to this, 0:33:34.189,0:33:38.262 it's not directly related to infoboxes[br]but it's a proposal that I and Amir 0:33:38.262,0:33:40.188 and a couple of other people[br]have been working on 0:33:40.188,0:33:44.269 for quite some time now[br]around a central repository 0:33:44.269,0:33:46.184 for templates and modules. 0:33:46.184,0:33:49.823 So at the moment, if you have a module[br]that you've written in, for example, 0:33:49.823,0:33:51.668 in the English Wikipedia[br]and you want to use it 0:33:51.668,0:33:54.969 on the Catalan Wikipedia[br]or some minority language Wikipedia, 0:33:54.969,0:33:58.495 some of those, you have to copy[br]across the code. 0:33:58.495,0:34:01.446 And then when the code is improved[br]on the English Wikipedia, 0:34:01.446,0:34:03.730 the improvement typically[br]doesn't get copied across 0:34:03.730,0:34:06.075 or it gets copied across sometime later. 0:34:06.075,0:34:08.944 So the idea is to have[br]a central repository 0:34:08.944,0:34:13.106 where LUA modules can be held[br]and used by every Wiki 0:34:13.866,0:34:16.546 in the same way that you hold an image[br]on Commons or a piece of data 0:34:16.546,0:34:17.973 on Wikidata. 0:34:17.973,0:34:23.894 So there is a very long draft proposal[br]in MediaWiki 0:34:24.144,0:34:26.718 and I will put the address of that[br]on the Etherpads 0:34:26.718,0:34:28.144 when I hand the microphone back 0:34:28.144,0:34:30.232 - and can get a web connection.[br]- (chuckles) 0:34:30.232,0:34:33.832 We would like your comments[br]and questions on that proposal. 0:34:33.832,0:34:37.614 It is going to take a very long time[br]before this can be implemented 0:34:37.614,0:34:40.211 because it'll be quite[br]a considerable change to the way 0:34:40.211,0:34:43.189 that the underlying [br]MediaWiki software works. 0:34:43.189,0:34:46.463 But when it comes in,[br]it will make this reuse of code 0:34:46.463,0:34:49.409 by minor Wikipedias much more easy. 0:34:49.409,0:34:50.940 Great, thank you, Andy. 0:34:50.940,0:34:52.013 Go ahead. 0:34:52.013,0:34:56.155 (Tpt) Yes, so actually the link[br]is here for the Global Template proposal. 0:34:56.155,0:34:58.127 I just did not have time to talk about it. 0:34:58.127,0:35:01.526 But yes, I think it would be[br]tremendously useful 0:35:01.526,0:35:04.385 so if you could talk[br]to Wikimedia Foundation people 0:35:04.385,0:35:08.892 and say, "Hey, we need to make[br]this proposal happen." 0:35:08.892,0:35:11.482 - Yes, it's a link to the proposal.[br]- [inaudible] 0:35:11.482,0:35:12.519 (Tpt) Yes. 0:35:14.973,0:35:17.323 (audience 4) Excuse me, [br]can you say why you think it's-- 0:35:17.323,0:35:19.793 No, no, no, no, no, it's not the same. 0:35:19.793,0:35:21.945 - (audience 3) Not the same?[br]- Maybe it's similar. 0:35:21.945,0:35:24.472 (Mike) This is off topic,[br]so let's not spend so much time on it. 0:35:24.472,0:35:25.578 (audience) Yes. 0:35:25.578,0:35:27.301 This will be incredibly useful [br]but not yet. 0:35:27.301,0:35:30.109 Take a look at the Etherpad.[br]Andy will leave a note there. 0:35:30.109,0:35:32.680 Andy, to answer to you, 0:35:33.944,0:35:37.394 maybe you talk about a project 0:35:37.746,0:35:42.226 called Multilingual Templates--[br]it's a model that is a project 0:35:42.226,0:35:48.010 and initiative to make a repository[br]that you can subscribe to there. 0:35:48.901,0:35:51.571 Anytime the owner or the creator 0:35:51.571,0:35:55.681 of this model or this template update, 0:35:55.681,0:35:58.736 all the subscribers receive their own copy 0:35:58.736,0:36:02.876 if they don't change it, the previous one. 0:36:03.266,0:36:06.966 So I don't know if finally[br]it will be this solution or another 0:36:06.966,0:36:11.249 - but this initiative or this idea,[br]- Idea. 0:36:11.249,0:36:13.575 I think that all of us agree. 0:36:13.575,0:36:16.795 (audience 3) I believe that Andy[br]was talking about Amir's proposal 0:36:16.795,0:36:21.101 so it's this one that is really having[br]just like Wikidata 0:36:21.101,0:36:22.720 but for templates. 0:36:23.582,0:36:25.890 - (audience 5) [inaudible][br]- (audience 3) Yes. 0:36:25.890,0:36:29.189 (audience 5) Because you have things[br]lie the LUA code to verify 0:36:29.189,0:36:31.390 the little check that[br]you got a nice balance. 0:36:31.390,0:36:32.791 [inaudible] 0:36:39.924,0:36:41.862 (Andrew) You got a question. 0:36:43.240,0:36:45.310 (audience 6) First of all,[br]I wanted to thank you all 0:36:45.310,0:36:47.867 for your great projects[br]and all of the work you're doing. 0:36:47.867,0:36:51.132 And also the great idea[br]of the central repository, 0:36:51.132,0:36:52.309 it's a good thing. 0:36:52.309,0:36:57.415 I'm from the German Wikipedia[br]and we have a thing there with-- 0:36:57.415,0:37:00.225 where we're trying to modify[br]most of the infoboxes 0:37:00.225,0:37:05.417 to actually support data from Wikidata[br]and we ran into a problem, 0:37:05.417,0:37:07.829 more of a cultural problem, actually, 0:37:07.829,0:37:13.737 where we are importing data[br]from Wikidata and by default 0:37:13.737,0:37:17.227 if nothing is entered in the infobox, 0:37:17.227,0:37:21.945 at the Wiki value pair[br]where it should be. 0:37:21.945,0:37:27.955 So if you leave the position empty,[br]for example, the coordinates of something 0:37:27.955,0:37:30.815 then the data comes from Wikidata[br]and if you put something in, 0:37:30.815,0:37:32.075 it's a local override. 0:37:32.075,0:37:35.727 And we run into a problem[br]that sometimes people actually 0:37:35.727,0:37:37.003 want nothing in there. 0:37:37.003,0:37:40.294 They want--they don't want[br]to change the data in Wikidata, 0:37:40.294,0:37:42.674 but they don't want the data[br]from Wikidata. 0:37:42.674,0:37:46.115 And they just want to override it[br]so it says nothing. 0:37:46.785,0:37:51.441 And we seem to have no real solution[br]for a use case scenario like that. 0:37:51.441,0:37:56.565 We thought about using like magic words[br]to suppress the actual information 0:37:56.565,0:38:00.445 of Wikidata but I don't know if you have[br]similar problems in your projects 0:38:00.445,0:38:02.034 and how you tackle them. 0:38:02.034,0:38:04.772 Yeah, so we have exactly the same problem[br]on French Wikipedia 0:38:04.772,0:38:09.261 and what the infoboxes are currently doing[br]is that if you put hyphen, 0:38:09.261,0:38:11.858 you just remove the Wikidata value. 0:38:11.858,0:38:14.488 It's kind of a hack but it works. 0:38:14.488,0:38:15.978 (audience 6) Interesting. 0:38:15.978,0:38:18.798 And the one I use[br]as a first field parameter 0:38:18.798,0:38:22.412 and you pass the name of a field leader[br]and want to show and it just hides it. 0:38:22.412,0:38:23.776 There are ways of doing this. 0:38:23.776,0:38:26.488 It's something that happens[br]on English Wikipedia as well. 0:38:26.488,0:38:29.118 Things like religion, people don't want[br]to show that in articles, 0:38:29.118,0:38:30.329 they can just turn it off. 0:38:30.329,0:38:31.774 (audience 6) Really cool, so. 0:38:31.774,0:38:34.577 So as we were saying,[br]you have multiple solutions 0:38:34.577,0:38:38.141 depending on the multiple problem[br]and you can--on the French Wikipedia, 0:38:38.141,0:38:41.998 we have some fields which[br]are then in the infoboxes itself, 0:38:41.998,0:38:46.153 like if the infoboxes can be used[br]for several kinds of things, 0:38:46.153,0:38:50.163 we all think, "Well, if it's this[br]specific thing, then this field 0:38:50.163,0:38:53.699 shouldn't show but it should show[br]if it's this other thing. 0:38:53.699,0:38:57.829 Or manually, in this article specifically,[br]I don't want this field." 0:38:57.829,0:39:02.050 So a technical solution exists[br]and we can probably implement that 0:39:02.050,0:39:03.905 on the German Wikipedia, no problem. 0:39:03.905,0:39:06.315 (audience 6) Really great,[br]and I'm going to look into that. 0:39:08.223,0:39:10.713 To answer you, we can... 0:39:11.956,0:39:15.656 in order to blend it,[br]you can hide any parameter. 0:39:18.164,0:39:20.944 But in each use, article by article. 0:39:22.195,0:39:26.395 Now, we are preparing a new release 0:39:27.838,0:39:29.778 if this release is-- 0:39:29.778,0:39:32.428 use it another Wiki pages 0:39:33.117,0:39:36.300 in order to be able to make[br]some kind of a customization. 0:39:36.300,0:39:39.620 For instance, what is the color[br]of the headers? 0:39:39.620,0:39:42.948 We have our color code[br]but maybe you'll want another, 0:39:42.948,0:39:45.822 I don't need to change the code to do that 0:39:45.822,0:39:49.473 or what are the units[br]that you want the results 0:39:49.473,0:39:51.253 of the measurements? 0:39:51.623,0:39:55.446 I use centimeters and meters[br]but maybe you want feet and-- 0:39:55.446,0:39:58.604 So all these kinds of things,[br]we want to make a list 0:39:58.604,0:40:03.892 of logical things that another Wikipedia 0:40:03.892,0:40:06.888 wants to customize 0:40:06.888,0:40:10.453 and this defines as a parameter[br]that you can change 0:40:10.453,0:40:13.993 and are not changing the version[br]of the infobox 0:40:13.993,0:40:17.237 because if you change the infobox,[br]you lose the connection 0:40:17.237,0:40:18.971 with the synchronization. 0:40:20.501,0:40:22.981 By the way, don't tell too many people[br]but Wikidata infobox 0:40:22.981,0:40:24.422 is on the German Wikipedia. 0:40:24.422,0:40:25.578 (laughter) 0:40:27.699,0:40:29.529 (audience 7) Once more. 0:40:29.529,0:40:31.381 (audience 8) Thank you, Mike. 0:40:31.381,0:40:35.399 (audience 9) That is a working mechanism[br]that, okay, we have 0:40:35.399,0:40:38.814 a central repository of infoboxes[br]it's a great idea. 0:40:38.814,0:40:42.770 But as a working--if we have[br]a central repository 0:40:42.770,0:40:48.867 of documentation, of these infoboxes[br]in meta or MediaWiki 0:40:48.867,0:40:52.384 or in a central place,[br]so everybody can benefit. 0:40:52.384,0:40:56.168 And so if I can put that page[br]into my watch list. 0:40:56.168,0:40:58.407 If something changes,[br]I will get a notification 0:40:58.407,0:41:00.693 so I can update my template. 0:41:00.693,0:41:04.853 That is easy, there is no need[br]for a proposal for that thing. 0:41:04.853,0:41:08.413 We can create a central repository[br]of documentation. 0:41:08.413,0:41:10.586 I don't think there's much[br]documentation at the moment, 0:41:10.586,0:41:12.965 so, yeah, that's important to do. 0:41:15.231,0:41:18.241 Yeah, well, actually[br]it's eight pages for databox, 0:41:18.703,0:41:22.953 way longer than the code, itself[br]because it's for a very smart community, 0:41:22.953,0:41:24.478 with no technical background. 0:41:24.478,0:41:28.830 But I think we have a tragic lack[br]of documentation in templates, 0:41:28.830,0:41:30.197 in general. 0:41:30.926,0:41:33.256 Really, a tragic lack. 0:41:33.709,0:41:38.700 And I do think that[br]Wikidata infoboxes are not worse. 0:41:39.380,0:41:41.107 Not by a lot. 0:41:41.107,0:41:45.437 Because we are working on[br]so many common LUA modules. 0:41:45.437,0:41:48.892 We are always using the same LUA bricks. 0:41:48.892,0:41:54.937 So some of this documentation[br]actually probably exists 0:41:54.937,0:41:59.217 in at least the French Wikipedia[br]but we have a translation problem. 0:42:00.376,0:42:05.140 We have--yeah, so a central repository[br]would be great, 0:42:05.140,0:42:07.883 but we will run[br]into a translation problem. 0:42:12.420,0:42:15.168 (audience 10) Dare I just throw out here[br]in the room that we probably 0:42:15.168,0:42:17.716 should have Wikidata items[br]for all of these infoboxes 0:42:17.716,0:42:20.407 and then we can have[br]the documentation on Wikidata, 0:42:20.407,0:42:24.502 where you have multilingual translations[br]that are a lot easier to do. 0:42:24.712,0:42:29.760 Yeah, we actually have the templates[br]for the translation of the documentation 0:42:29.760,0:42:32.730 of databox but people are not translating. 0:42:32.730,0:42:36.738 So yeah, you could translate easily,[br]you can help me translate that 0:42:36.738,0:42:38.834 in your languages so people can use. 0:42:38.834,0:42:43.775 But I can't translate that in Hausa,[br]I don't speak Hausa, though. 0:42:45.370,0:42:50.548 In any case, when we talk about[br]the accommodation of the template, 0:42:50.548,0:42:53.038 we are thinking in a large accommodation, 0:42:53.038,0:42:57.056 the display in each parameter[br]and each value that you can put, 0:42:57.056,0:42:58.813 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 0:42:59.587,0:43:05.717 Our experience is 60% of all of articles[br]has just info [inaudible] person 0:43:05.717,0:43:09.557 info [inaudible] building,[br]info [inaudible] no parameters. 0:43:09.557,0:43:14.343 So the unique documentation[br]that you need and we don't have, 0:43:14.343,0:43:18.374 very well, I confess,[br]is that was the model 0:43:18.374,0:43:23.917 of that data that[br]you have to fill in Wikidata. 0:43:24.137,0:43:30.007 Not how the template runs[br]because you do not need it anymore. 0:43:30.711,0:43:33.381 So we have stories--[br]oh, sorry, just rather quick-- 0:43:33.381,0:43:39.147 stories of Catalan and Basque[br]who are like 80% infoboxes in Wikidata 0:43:39.147,0:43:40.147 which is incredible. 0:43:40.147,0:43:42.488 English at the other end of the spectrum. 0:43:42.988,0:43:44.888 Other languages,[br]I love to hear from other folks 0:43:44.888,0:43:47.459 after we hear from Jane,[br]about your experiences. 0:43:47.459,0:43:50.119 French is somewhere[br]maybe in between... yeah. 0:43:52.021,0:43:54.381 (Jane) Okay, the wonderful [br]Sandra Fauconnier is not 0:43:54.381,0:43:55.654 in the room, I don't think, 0:43:55.654,0:43:59.388 did this amazing page on Wikidata[br]for the visual arts 0:43:59.388,0:44:01.405 where she actually put in[br]all of the things 0:44:01.405,0:44:03.287 that are actually considered artworks. 0:44:03.287,0:44:06.207 So you could have a page on Wikidata[br]that has your infobox 0:44:06.207,0:44:07.830 with all of the fields. 0:44:07.830,0:44:11.313 And then the fields can--[br]those are actual things in Wikidata. 0:44:11.313,0:44:13.898 So that's why I talk about[br]multilingual translation 0:44:13.898,0:44:17.473 that is automatically done for you[br]and you just put it in a huge table. 0:44:17.953,0:44:22.033 Yeah, that actually is the same problem[br]we have on other projects, 0:44:22.033,0:44:24.910 we talked about the WikidataCon,[br]and I think it's a running thing, 0:44:24.910,0:44:29.604 like Wiki projects, I think[br]are making data modeling, 0:44:29.604,0:44:32.773 saying, hey, [br]we should do that on Wikidata 0:44:32.773,0:44:38.580 and we have outreach problem [br]in that Wikidatians which are not working 0:44:38.580,0:44:41.460 on this specific subject[br]don't know how the data is modeled. 0:44:41.460,0:44:45.733 And Wikipedians know that even less[br]and everything else. 0:44:45.733,0:44:50.907 So most of it already exists in some form. 0:44:50.907,0:44:53.956 But people who need it[br]don't know they need it 0:44:53.956,0:44:57.936 so they don't search[br]for the help pages which exist. 0:44:57.936,0:45:02.066 Yeah, it's not only a Wiki[br]and infoboxes problem. 0:45:02.066,0:45:04.932 It's a more general problem 0:45:04.932,0:45:08.640 we ran [into] several stations[br]today and yesterday, so. 0:45:08.640,0:45:09.833 Very good. 0:45:10.129,0:45:12.649 Any other reports or folks, or Shani? 0:45:16.126,0:45:20.546 (Shani) Well, not report but a question[br]to the people in the room. 0:45:21.374,0:45:24.394 A show of hands if we can,[br]for a second, how many think that 0:45:25.604,0:45:29.818 a central repository of infoboxes 0:45:29.818,0:45:31.483 is needed? 0:45:33.022,0:45:34.842 Okay, let's do the opposite. 0:45:34.842,0:45:36.744 Are there any people who oppose? 0:45:36.744,0:45:40.130 Okay, so, Andy, this is for you,[br]why did you say it's going to take 0:45:40.130,0:45:42.181 - a long time to--[br]- (laughter) 0:45:42.988,0:45:46.458 It's going to take a long time[br]because the people working 0:45:46.458,0:45:50.811 on infoboxes want it[br]and the people using the infoboxes 0:45:50.811,0:45:52.028 don't want it. 0:45:52.028,0:45:53.038 I have a-- 0:45:54.412,0:45:59.943 Okay, yeah, so on a technical level,[br]making a--if you want to do it properly 0:45:59.943,0:46:02.443 so having one Wiki,[br]where you put infobox codes 0:46:02.443,0:46:06.115 and you're having other Wikis[br]taking the code 0:46:06.115,0:46:10.706 and doing some proper rendering,[br]it's kind of hard on the technical level. 0:46:10.706,0:46:14.706 So it's going to--so it's basically[br]like implementing Wikidata-- 0:46:15.356,0:46:17.691 just like, for example,[br]getting Wikidata content 0:46:17.691,0:46:20.628 into Wikipedia was hard[br]on a technical level, 0:46:20.628,0:46:25.981 it's going to be the same[br]and so it's something that 0:46:25.981,0:46:28.111 a volunteer, for example,[br]couldn't do at all. 0:46:28.111,0:46:29.760 So that's why it takes a long time. 0:46:29.760,0:46:31.430 (audience 11) So it's a WF thing? 0:46:31.430,0:46:33.690 It's definitely a WMF thing, yes. 0:46:33.690,0:46:36.253 - [inaudible][br]- Yeah. 0:46:36.253,0:46:37.642 (Andrew) You can help with that. 0:46:37.642,0:46:39.769 But it's software release engineering, 0:46:39.769,0:46:42.714 basically, if you think about it, right. 0:46:42.714,0:46:44.670 So it gets pretty complex. 0:46:44.670,0:46:48.545 I understand and I agree with you[br]that it's not easy. 0:46:53.718,0:46:54.918 It's not easy. 0:46:55.598,0:46:59.050 Maybe it's a dream,[br]a repository central, 0:46:59.050,0:47:00.658 repository et cetera, et cetera. 0:47:00.658,0:47:04.850 However, when I try to do 0:47:04.850,0:47:06.898 an installation pack, 0:47:07.478,0:47:12.201 the problems that I found[br]is not only the translation problem 0:47:12.201,0:47:15.661 that the language is different[br]but even that the-- 0:47:17.977,0:47:19.977 the modus operandi is different. 0:47:19.977,0:47:25.320 For instance, the [inaudible] model[br]exists from several years. 0:47:25.320,0:47:28.952 All of us copy it from the English version 0:47:28.952,0:47:31.812 but after that, we have to change it 0:47:31.812,0:47:35.702 in order to adapt to our measurements. 0:47:35.702,0:47:37.947 So these kind of things 0:47:37.947,0:47:42.158 or the model or the elements 0:47:42.158,0:47:45.058 to put in the repository 0:47:45.058,0:47:49.318 is prepared to do that[br]or the repository is not the solution. 0:47:49.833,0:47:53.019 It's not only a question[br]of translating the language 0:47:53.019,0:47:58.069 but also that the running way 0:47:58.069,0:48:03.459 must be different for each[br]one of necessities of each user filter. 0:48:03.649,0:48:06.862 If you don't take care of all of them, 0:48:07.048,0:48:10.274 the model will know universally. 0:48:10.274,0:48:13.394 And this is the difficulty,[br]not the question of how 0:48:13.394,0:48:15.480 a repository with automatic replication-- 0:48:15.480,0:48:17.536 No, this is a technical solution. 0:48:17.536,0:48:18.581 Okay. 0:48:19.639,0:48:22.845 Actually on the French Wikipedia,[br]one of the biggest, biggest 0:48:22.845,0:48:27.745 and longest war edits[br]before Wikidata was a project 0:48:28.065,0:48:32.710 was that we have[br]three different infoboxes for our cities. 0:48:32.944,0:48:36.474 And there were infoboxes[br]with data with cities, 0:48:36.474,0:48:38.941 totally manually,[br]so no Wikidata question here. 0:48:38.941,0:48:42.817 And we have war edits[br]about these templates for years. 0:48:42.817,0:48:45.434 It was a very big thing[br]because people were like, 0:48:45.434,0:48:49.234 "No, I prefer information this way"[br]or, "I prefer information this way." 0:48:49.234,0:48:51.029 And we have a big repository. 0:48:51.029,0:48:57.428 We are multiplying that for every template[br]across every Wiki and for community 0:48:57.428,0:49:01.288 who have edits for years[br]and years and years. 0:49:01.288,0:49:04.284 So we have a technical problem to do that. 0:49:04.284,0:49:10.086 And we will fight[br]with a very, very big push 0:49:10.086,0:49:13.946 against it by people who are not[br]creating the infoboxes 0:49:13.946,0:49:15.003 or using the infoboxes 0:49:15.003,0:49:19.263 but will just be really happy[br]that their specific field, 0:49:19.263,0:49:23.310 they are used to have at the top[br]of the infobox will get in the middle. 0:49:23.310,0:49:25.402 That's what we will fight against. 0:49:25.402,0:49:27.521 Because everyone wants a repository. 0:49:27.521,0:49:32.110 But everyone wants a repository[br]of their template as they want them. 0:49:32.110,0:49:33.457 (laughter) 0:49:35.194,0:49:36.634 (Andrew) Yeah, just-- 0:49:37.328,0:49:40.108 (audience 3) Thank you,[br]I think that's a valid point. 0:49:40.108,0:49:43.444 But the idea is to provide[br]a repository of modules. 0:49:43.564,0:49:45.825 And then people can put[br]their own front end on them 0:49:45.825,0:49:48.594 if they want to, in a local template. 0:49:48.594,0:49:50.805 If they don't want to,[br]there should be a shared template 0:49:50.805,0:49:53.642 which they can use[br]out of the box as it were. 0:49:53.642,0:49:56.094 But it's certainly[br]meant to be configurable 0:49:56.094,0:49:59.139 and that is taken account[br]into the proposal that Amir has drafted, 0:49:59.139,0:50:01.985 if you read that and indeed,[br]if you read the discussion page, 0:50:01.985,0:50:04.635 that issue has already been addressed. 0:50:05.488,0:50:09.128 (Shani) Can I talk on to something? 0:50:10.952,0:50:13.012 Take the mic. 0:50:14.794,0:50:17.764 (Shani) Sorry, just to note[br]that on Hebrew Wikipedia, for example, 0:50:17.764,0:50:21.403 the templates that we--[br]that the infoboxes that we use, 0:50:21.403,0:50:23.915 they are automatic and come from Wikidata. 0:50:23.915,0:50:28.837 But there's always an option[br]for the community to edit that template 0:50:28.837,0:50:32.467 and adjust it to our specific needs. 0:50:32.467,0:50:35.637 - (Shani) So--[br]- No, the repository problem 0:50:35.637,0:50:37.980 is not about taking information[br]about Wikidata. 0:50:37.980,0:50:41.965 It's like on the French Wikipedia,[br]for dates, we will have 0:50:43.211,0:50:48.311 space between, I don't know,[br]the day, then the month, then the year. 0:50:48.311,0:50:50.503 You don't want that order in English. 0:50:50.503,0:50:54.943 So when you pull a data from dates,[br]you want it formatted in English 0:50:54.943,0:50:56.543 as you want it. 0:50:57.449,0:51:02.847 So the idea of the repository[br]would be a generic LUA template 0:51:02.847,0:51:05.880 with dates where you can just put,[br]"Hey, this is French, 0:51:05.880,0:51:07.382 so I want this formatting. 0:51:07.382,0:51:09.300 This is English, I want this." 0:51:09.300,0:51:14.955 So whatever infoboxes or other templates[br]you are using with dates, 0:51:14.955,0:51:21.095 you can use the exact same infobox[br]and have it correct in your language. 0:51:21.095,0:51:23.244 And that's a technical problem. 0:51:24.258,0:51:27.418 Can I suggest go to the Tool page,[br]talk about it there? 0:51:27.418,0:51:31.749 Amir would love feedback on this,[br]so please, do edit there. 0:51:33.785,0:51:36.535 So, yeah, a repository[br]is a really great thing 0:51:36.535,0:51:41.710 for everyone working on Wikidata[br]but it's really not Wikidata-centric, 0:51:41.710,0:51:43.989 the problem we are running with that idea. 0:51:43.989,0:51:45.495 Everyone here will love it. 0:51:45.495,0:51:46.635 But, yeah. 0:51:48.007,0:51:50.437 (Andrew) Any other questions.[br]João, do you have a question? 0:51:51.553,0:51:53.376 (audience 12) Just a general question. 0:51:53.376,0:51:57.436 Well, sorry, more aimed at Mike,[br]I have come across the problem 0:51:57.436,0:52:03.056 of wanting to use the infoboxes[br]on species pages in WikiCommons. 0:52:03.056,0:52:05.171 a species category in WikiCommons. 0:52:05.171,0:52:10.703 And there are taxonomic[br]minded people who really 0:52:10.703,0:52:15.213 do not like Wikidata going anywhere near 0:52:15.213,0:52:19.529 all their beautifully curated data[br]which has no references 0:52:19.529,0:52:20.747 - Yeah.[br]- in their category. 0:52:20.747,0:52:23.964 (audience 12) And I find it quite--[br]I personally can handle the fact 0:52:23.964,0:52:28.074 that the two pieces[br]of data disagree, that's fine 0:52:28.074,0:52:32.088 because taxonomists disagree[br]all the time about whether something 0:52:32.088,0:52:33.738 is even a species or not. 0:52:33.738,0:52:38.099 But the people who I have edited[br]their category pages for 0:52:38.099,0:52:41.947 go off the deep end at me for doing it,[br]so I've learned very quickly 0:52:41.947,0:52:44.382 to back off and not do it[br]and only do it for my categories 0:52:44.382,0:52:47.955 that I'm creating and I'm very quick[br]about creating my categories 0:52:47.955,0:52:49.592 before they get anywhere near them, 0:52:49.592,0:52:54.992 so that I can stick[br]a Wikidata-sourced infobox on it. 0:52:54.992,0:52:57.705 And then they don't take it off[br]because it's there first. 0:52:57.705,0:53:00.313 But they do still put[br]their own data in there 0:53:00.313,0:53:01.452 - and references.[br]- Yeah. 0:53:01.452,0:53:04.140 So taxons are the one exception[br]on Commons at the moment 0:53:04.140,0:53:06.498 - to the Wikidata infobox deployment?[br]- (audience 12) Yes. 0:53:06.498,0:53:09.023 It's probably because it's a Commons thing[br]but anyway, if you go 0:53:09.023,0:53:11.301 to the Village pump/proposals,[br]there was currently, 0:53:11.301,0:53:13.641 I submitted a proposal [br]to add them to taxons. 0:53:13.641,0:53:15.583 So go comment on there, please. 0:53:15.583,0:53:16.916 - (audience 12) Okay.[br]- (laughter) 0:53:16.916,0:53:18.799 It's currently being discussed. 0:53:21.437,0:53:23.477 (Andrew) We only have[br]about five minutes left. 0:53:23.477,0:53:27.928 - So one--oh, two minutes left.[br]- Yeah, I have an answer to Andy. 0:53:27.928,0:53:28.998 Andy? 0:53:30.312,0:53:32.532 What you proposed about... 0:53:34.752,0:53:37.285 a common base, 0:53:37.285,0:53:41.119 and a personalized presentation, 0:53:41.119,0:53:43.555 is the Basque solution. 0:53:43.555,0:53:47.402 They copy it all modeled [br]and old templated. 0:53:47.402,0:53:50.932 And after that, they modify[br]their templates. 0:53:50.932,0:53:56.198 So now, similar[br]but they have their own copy. 0:53:56.198,0:54:01.396 Obviously, also it's time[br]we made an upgrade. 0:54:01.396,0:54:04.366 I say we have a--[br]with relationship I send a message. 0:54:04.366,0:54:06.495 But I can send a copy... 0:54:06.495,0:54:07.550 to you? 0:54:07.550,0:54:12.449 But this is a [inaudible][br]of the implementator. 0:54:12.450,0:54:14.320 Make modifications or not. 0:54:14.320,0:54:16.393 (Andrew) One last question[br]for the folks there. 0:54:16.393,0:54:20.613 How many people here know about[br]Shape Expressions in Wikidata? 0:54:20.613,0:54:23.190 They're E numbers in Wikidata? 0:54:23.190,0:54:24.540 You got a quick slide up there. 0:54:24.540,0:54:26.908 But what do you folks predict[br]as the relationship between 0:54:26.908,0:54:30.049 what you're doing with infoboxes[br]and the rise of Shape Expressions 0:54:30.049,0:54:31.478 or ShEx in Wikidata? 0:54:31.478,0:54:33.528 There's a mic right there. 0:54:33.528,0:54:37.828 I would love to be able to define[br]infoboxes with Shape Expression. 0:54:37.828,0:54:40.770 Because here you would write,[br]basically my idea is that 0:54:40.770,0:54:43.965 you would write a Shape Expression,[br]on the how data should look like 0:54:43.965,0:54:46.315 and then you annote--[br]maybe annoted them 0:54:46.315,0:54:49.174 with some labels if you want to customize[br]let's say a field name. 0:54:49.174,0:54:51.274 And then it would be able to do[br]multiple things. 0:54:51.274,0:54:53.284 First, generating infobox. 0:54:53.284,0:54:56.374 For example, the shape is--[br]here's an example of Shape Expression 0:54:56.374,0:54:59.594 for a personal infobox,[br]you would just first say that 0:54:59.594,0:55:01.288 you have a sex and gender property 0:55:01.288,0:55:04.621 with some added values,[br]some birth dates 0:55:04.621,0:55:08.114 and some, let's say[br]it's a nationality and so on. 0:55:08.114,0:55:12.495 And then you could see it as a section[br]of infobox on which you could give 0:55:12.495,0:55:14.076 a label in multiple languages. 0:55:14.076,0:55:17.000 So this way you are able[br]to first generate an infobox. 0:55:17.000,0:55:19.898 Then you are able to validate the data. 0:55:20.558,0:55:24.934 If you want to do--[br]you could even do some fun stuff 0:55:24.934,0:55:29.780 like generating having some--[br]you know the project of Wikimedia Germany 0:55:29.780,0:55:32.220 of being able to edit Wikidata[br]from Wikipedias. 0:55:32.220,0:55:33.640 (audience 14) Wikidata Bridge. 0:55:33.640,0:55:35.134 Wikidata Bridge, yes, I thank you. 0:55:35.134,0:55:38.224 So countries working on each field[br]but if you have these kind of things 0:55:38.224,0:55:41.938 for infobox, you can do edit forms,[br]that works on the field level, 0:55:41.938,0:55:43.841 but on the infobox level. 0:55:43.841,0:55:46.505 And you already know[br]which has the possible values. 0:55:46.505,0:55:49.259 For example, for a property[br]or could be able to say 0:55:49.259,0:55:53.206 that you might have multiple values[br]for some but not for others 0:55:53.206,0:55:54.294 and so on. 0:55:54.853,0:55:58.383 And so you would have both displays,[br]validations and editing 0:55:58.383,0:56:00.028 all in the same place. 0:56:01.132,0:56:06.654 And for the display part,[br]it would be like for the Catalan state. 0:56:06.654,0:56:09.220 With four infoboxes,[br]they are like ask the data. 0:56:09.220,0:56:12.716 So we have a Shape Expression,[br]we could say, 0:56:12.716,0:56:15.432 "Hey, this is a human,[br]I want this layout, 0:56:15.432,0:56:18.142 this is a location, I want this layout," 0:56:18.142,0:56:23.963 without ever needing[br]several infoboxes. 0:56:24.617,0:56:28.297 So it would be a way[br]to make databox even prettier, 0:56:28.297,0:56:30.270 for a very small Wikipedia and everything. 0:56:30.270,0:56:33.480 So yeah, a big thing[br]I'm enthusiastic about. 0:56:36.303,0:56:39.773 With four changes, I solve 50%. 0:56:39.773,0:56:40.978 Yes.[br](laughter) 0:56:42.133,0:56:45.383 I can't see how it integrates Shape [br]Expressions into the Wikidata infobox 0:56:45.383,0:56:47.775 because it just uses--[br]it's one thing for everything. 0:56:47.775,0:56:51.023 Where this is breaking it down again[br]into individual bits and pieces 0:56:51.023,0:56:53.700 and changing the amount of formatting[br]for each individual area 0:56:53.700,0:56:55.206 which maybe it isn't so useful. 0:56:55.206,0:56:58.519 Very useful to gain data into Wikidata[br]and saying this is what we want 0:56:58.519,0:56:59.596 in these entries. 0:56:59.596,0:57:01.687 But then the infoboxes[br]can just display the whole lot 0:57:01.687,0:57:04.235 without having to go[br]into this complex thing, I think. 0:57:04.235,0:57:06.025 I agree with Mike. 0:57:06.470,0:57:10.990 One of our goals, initial goals,[br]was the harmonization. 0:57:12.030,0:57:18.306 You don't like my look and feel,[br]you can make a proposal to change. 0:57:18.306,0:57:22.896 But everybody will have the same,[br]a [inaudible] Wikipedia. 0:57:22.896,0:57:24.161 Because if not, 0:57:24.958,0:57:29.945 finally you can have[br]four infoboxes for 50%, 0:57:29.945,0:57:34.135 you need 40 infoboxes for 50%. 0:57:34.135,0:57:35.782 So it's very dangerous. 0:57:35.782,0:57:36.803 (laughter) 0:57:36.803,0:57:40.209 No, no, I agree that[br]maybe the [sign] doesn't like, 0:57:40.209,0:57:41.557 I change it. 0:57:41.557,0:57:44.073 But all the articles would be the same, 0:57:44.073,0:57:46.183 the same that we agree. 0:57:46.183,0:57:48.326 (Andrew) Great, well, thank you so much. 0:57:48.326,0:57:50.548 Let's have a hand for the [inaudible] 0:57:50.548,0:57:51.979 (applause) 0:57:51.979,0:57:54.489 Alright, and continue[br]the conversation online, top page 0:57:54.489,0:57:55.883 or find them later on. 0:57:55.883,0:57:56.966 Thanks.