Welcome to the Brigham Young
University Family History

Library Webinar Series.
My name is Sean Firmage.

I will be your host 
for this webinar.

Today we will be pleased to hear 
from Kathryn Grant, who will be

giving a presentation titled,
"What every Family Tree User

should know about 
name-finding apps.

After years on the sidelines, 
Kathryn started doing

family history and discovered to her 
surprise that she loved it.

Her specialty is mentoring 
new family historians and

helping them find success,
and maybe even avoid

some of the mistakes
that she's made.

Kathryn teaches Sunday classes 
at the BYU Family History Library.

She also presents at 
Riverton Saturday Seminars

and other family 
history events.

Her column on family history 
ran in the Nauvoo Times

for about a year and is still 
available online.

Kathryn works for the LDS Church 
as a technical writer,

with a focus on usability 
and process improvement.

Besides family history, 
she loves uplifting music,

thought-provoking books 
and spring lilacs.

Kathryn, we’ll turn 
the time over to you.

(Kathryn) Great! Shaun, 
thank you so much.

Hi everybody and welcome 
to our webinar today.

As we’ve seen, technology has 
its blessings and challenges

and we appreciate your patience 
as we’ve gotten started with this.

Today’s webinar is about a very 
important topic that has become

of interest to people with the 
many name-finding apps

being made available 
to Family Tree users.

Maybe you have had a friend 
approach you and say something like,

“Hey! Have you tried 
such-and-such an app?

It’s amazing! 
In a matter of minutes,

I found over a hundred names 
for temple work!”

Name-finding apps have become
popular in the last few years

for doing family history, 
but they’re also widely

misunderstood 
and even misused.

And that misuse has some 
unexpected consequences.

Today I’m hoping that we can shed
some light on those consequences

and talk about how 
to avoid them.

I hope this webinar will be of help 
to three main audiences.

The first is for people 
who are using the apps

or may be considering 
using the apps.

The second audience 
is for consultants

who help others 
to find family names.

And then finally, 
developers of name-finding apps

or those who may be considering 
developing a name-finding app.

Here's a short overview of what 
we’re going to be talking about.

First of all, we’re going to get 
on the same page as far as what

we’re talking about 
in this particular webinar

when we say 
“name-finding apps.”

Then we’re going to talk about 
some common misconceptions

that people have about 
name-finding apps.

Then we’ll look at some 
unintended consequences.

And finally, we’ll look 
at an alternative approach.

So let’s go ahead 
and dive in.

What do we mean in this webinar 
when we talk about name-finding apps?

Basically we’re talking about apps 
that crawl FamilySearch Family Tree

to find names with 
green temples.

Why is there such an appeal 
for name-finding apps?

I am guessing if you 
joined this webinar,

you’ve probably had more than one 
friend talk to you about their

favorite name-finding app 
and how much they love it.

So, why do people love 
these apps so much?

Well, name-finding apps say that 
they will save you time,

that they will reduce the effort 
required for family history,

that they will eliminate the tedium
(and who doesn’t want that),

and then finally, they promise to 
make family history fast and easy.

Now, for a lot of us, especially 
if we are just starting out,

family history can seem like 
kind of a black box

and we hear people talk about 
how they spent years

trying to break down 
a brick wall.

And we might look at some 
genealogical problem

and just be completely 
flummoxed.

What’s not to love about 
an app that says

it’s going to take away 
all those problems?

But there’s a little bit more to it, 
so let’s look at some of the common

misconceptions that happen when 
people use these apps.

It’s important to point out 
that people don’t promote

these misconceptions 
on purpose.

In other words, no user 
or developer, for that matter,

says, “I think I’ll spread 
some misconceptions.”

When we have misconceptions, 
one of the reasons we have them

is that we don’t know they’re 
misconceptions.

It’s been my experience 
that these misconceptions

lead to using 
name-finding apps

and using the apps tends to 
reinforce the misconceptions.

Let’s look at a few 
of those misconceptions.

First of all there are 
three misconceptions

that tend to go 
hand-in-hand.

The first is that the 
Church is the entity

that provided the 
names in Family Tree.

If we think that, 
it’s not a very far leap

to believe if the Church 
provided the names,

they must be verified
and ready for temple work.

It’s a logical conclusion, 
right?

Finally, if we believe the Church
has provide the names

and they are ready for temple work, 
it’s not too much of a stretch

to believe Family Tree 
was supposed to be

an on-going source 
of temple names.

Let’s take a look at the truth 
about each of these.

The first misconception
that the Church provided

the names in Family 
Tree is not true.

Where the names came from was
users, interestingly enough.

And that's something that is 
very often misunderstood

especially by new users
to FamilySearch because

the FamilySearch website is 
sponsored by the Church

so it's logical to think the
Church provided those names.

But what the Church and 
and FamilySearch did

was they gathered names 
that were provided by users.

I have another webinar 
that goes into a lot more detail

on that so I won’t go into 
a lot of detail here,

but it's important to realize 
the names in Family Tree

were ultimately 
contributed by users.

Here’s an example, for those 
of you who might remember

the 4-generation program
of the last century.

We sent in our 
family history

on family group sheets 
like this one.

This is an actual family group 
sheet for James Waterfield.

He’s got a couple of daughters, 
but notice there’s no wife,

and there’s a half-sister 
to these other daughters here,

but the information 
is scanty.

Rose Hannah has more information; 
Mary, not so much.

But before we judge 
people too harshly,

we might look at 
this record and go,

“Wow, that’s kind of shoddy work! 
That wasn’t very complete.”

Remember, this sheet was prepared 
before the days of the internet.

The person may not have even had 
access to a typewriter back then,

for those of you who know 
what typewriters are

since we don’t use them 
much anymore.

I have no doubt this person was 
doing the very best that they could.

They were following the 
counsel to collect names

for four generations and to 
submit them to the church.

And to be honest with you, 
many of the names that are

submitted to Family Tree, 
are about of this quality.

It’s harder to see when 
the name is digital.

We can look at this family group 
sheet and see there’s a lot missing.

But when you look at this 
same name in Family Tree,

it's not quite so obvious
what's missing.

We don’t want to be judgmental 
or critical of people

who have put names in 
Family Tree.

Whether they did it through 
an old 4-generation program

or they're doing it today, 
they’re doing the best they can

with the information 
and skills that they have.

For any of you who 
have indexed,

you may be familiar with the old
extraction program,

which was the forerunner 
of the indexing program.

Many extracted names were 
also added to Family Tree.

We see the neat screen in 
Family Tree and it's all digital

and beautiful and easy to read,
and sometimes we don't stop

to think about where that
information came from.

It came from a record like this. 
Some are a little easier to read.

Some are a lot harder.
But they were, in many cases,

handwritten records made 
at the time of the event

by a person who may or may not 
have had an extensive education.

People were doing their best, 
but this kind of information

ended up in Family Tree and it 
varied widely in quality.

So, did the Church verify all the 
names in FamilySearch Family Tree?

Actually, they didn’t. 
Not because they didn't want to,

but because it simply 
wouldn’t be feasible.

Family Tree has 1.1 
billion names in it,

so it wouldn’t have been 
feasible for the Church to get

the staff and the manpower 
to verify every single one.

The truth is, we the users 
are responsible for

verifying the names 
in Family Tree.

Many of those names 
that we just looked at

became green temples 
in Family Tree.

So those extracted records 
or names submitted with the old

3 and 4 generation program, 
ended up in Family Tree

with green temples 
looking like they need

temple work when 
they actually don’t.

And that’s an important 
thing to be aware of

when you’re using 
a name-finding app.

In my experience, about 80% 
of the green temples that I find

in Family Tree do not need 
temple work and there are

four main reasons for that, 
that are listed here on the screen.

The first one is they 
might be a duplicate.

If they are a duplicate 
of a record that already has

temple work attached, then 
that work doesn’t need to be done,

the records just
need to be merged.

The records might also have 
errors in vital information.

As an example, I found a record 
in Family Tree that had come from

an early submission that 
had the birth place

of Cathearth in 
Cambridgeshire, England.

And there was no such place 
as Cathearth, but because

the last name of that person on the 
record was one of my family names,

and because it was close to 
where that family lived,

which was actually 
a place called Chatteris,

I thought there’s something going 
on, I’m going to check this out.

So I found the original submission 
and was able to determine

that the person had meant 
Chatteris and not Cathearth.

But because of the error 
in that vital information,

a duplicate did not come up 
when I did the search.

As soon as I corrected the error, 
the duplicate came up

and this woman’s temple work 
had already been done.

So errors in vital information 
can cause problems.

There can be relationship errors. 
Not too long ago,

I found a mother having 
children when she was four.

Not so likely, right? 
So there was a problem there.

Even though those names 
had green temples on them,

they weren’t ready 
for temple work.

Another common problem is that 
people will put in names,

maybe based on a census 
or they’ll come from extraction,

where they won’t have a death date 
because they don’t know it

so the person shows up 
with a green temple,

but a little more research shows 
that they died before eight

and all they need is 
sealing to parents.

So green temple names may not need
work for any of these reasons

and a name-finding app will normally 
not be able to distinguish this.

They may tell some duplicates 
but on most of the rest of them,

these other three 
bullet points,

they don’t have the 
programming power

or the algorithms, to determine 
whether those problems exist.

The last misconception of those 
three is that Family Tree

is intended to be an ongoing
source of temple names.

Again, that’s logical if you think 
that the Church originally

populated Family Tree 
with these temple names.

I found that this misconception 
gets passed so frequently,

kind of like wildfire gossip, 
from one member to another.

Where I live, people are constantly 
telling each other this, saying,

“All you have to do is go to Family
Tree and find your temple names.

Isn’t that awesome that the 
Church has made it so easy!

They’ve just handed 
us these names.”

And so the “good news” gets 
spread around with people

not realizing that it’s 
actually a misconception.

But the truth is that Family Tree 
is a wonderful gift that was

given to us by the Church 
through FamilySearch

as a place to collaborate 
with other researchers,

a place to track temple work, and 
where we can add family names.

Once in a while when I talk 
about the problems

with the data in Family Tree, 
I have had a couple of people say,

“Wow! It sounds to me like you’re 
criticizing Family Tree.”

One person even felt like I was 
criticizing the Prophet because

the Church sponsors Family Tree. 
But the truth is,

to point out the reality of the 
data in Family Tree

isn’t a criticism, 
it’s actually empowering,

because if we understand 
the data in Family Tree,

we understand better 
how to use it.

So data issues don’t mean 
that Family Tree is flawed,

or that the Church 
did something wrong

by putting this data 
in Family Tree.

It only looks like a criticism of 
Family Tree to point out the data

if a person thought the data was 
supposed to be perfect

and that Family Search had
intended it to be perfect.

If you think something’s perfect 
and then someone says it’s not,

that sounds like criticism and
like the program failed.

But if we realize that the 
purpose of Family Tree

is for us to collaborate, 
track temple work, and add names,

and it was never meant to be a 
perfect source of verified names,

then we realize it’s not a 
criticism of Family Tree.

So the problem isn’t 
the Family Tree data.

The problem is the misconceptions 
that we might have about it.

Two more common misconceptions 
that go a little bit hand in hand --

One of those is that success 
in family history

means reserving large 
numbers of names.

Again, this is one of those 
misconceptions promoted by apps,

at least the way they are used, 
because so many people use them

to find large numbers 
of temple names.

Associated with that, is the 
misconception that family history

is tedious and time-consuming, 
especially so without an app.

Let’s look a little bit closer 
at those two misconceptions.

So, does success in 
family history mean

reserving large 
numbers of names?

We’ve been taught in conference 
that’s not the case.

You might remember Elder Scott’s
talk where he mentioned that he

didn’t think people would be very 
happy beyond the veil if someone

reserved a large number of names 
and kept them in their temple queue.

So that's a problem and
the Church has dealt

with that problem by 
releasing names from

people’s temple queues if they’re 
older than two years.

So that took care of that problem, 
but still I hear people saying,

“Wow! I found 400 names!” 
It almost becomes a matter of pride.

I remember hearing a talk that was 
given in my stake by a young woman

who had been taught to use a 
name-finding app to just comb

through family tree and 
find bunches of names.

So she had used the app. 
She had gone through and gotten

a couple hundred names and then 
her sister tried to use the app

to crawl the tree, but the older 
girl had already reserved the names

after the app had run 
for a certain period of time.

So the younger sister was really 
frustrated and discouraged because

she tried to do the same
thing her sister did

and wasn’t able to get 
this huge number of names.

Another problem with this 
misconception is that it can lead

to cutting corners and 
not verifying the names.

So people will use the app. 
They’ll gather hundreds

and in some cases I’ve heard of, 
people doing thousands of names,

and then they don’t verify them. 
They either put them in their

temple queue or share them 
with the temple system,

and then other people end up 
doing the invalid names,

which is not really
fair to them.

So if success in family history 
doesn’t mean reserving

huge numbers of names, how do we 
qualify success in family history?

After years of working with people 
and helping them get started,

I’ve come to believe that 
success in family history

means a consistent, 
diligent effort.

In a way, for those of you who 
are home or visiting teachers,

it’s the same principle. 
Home and visiting teaching

isn’t a one and done. 
We don’t just visit a person

once and then say, 
“Okay, you’re good for life.”

or just think about them once 
towards the end of the month.

Being a good home or 
visiting teacher means

consistent, diligent effort 
on a regular basis.

And I really believe it’s 
the same in family history.

So, our goal shouldn’t be 
to be gathering large

numbers of family names, 
but instead to be

making a consistent, 
diligent effort.

And this one, oh my goodness, 
please forgive me because

this is actually one of 
my greatest concerns,

one that I just wish I 
could shout from the rooftops

and tell people it’s a 
myth that family history

is tedious and 
time-consuming.

Let’s leave the app 
aside for a minute.

There’s a misconception in the 
church that family history is

tedious and time-consuming. 
It’s true that some time periods

and some areas of the world are 
more difficult than others.

I wish I could tell people 
that everybody has places

on their line like that, 
but everybody also has

places on their line that 
are easier than others.

So family history is not tedious 
and time-consuming per se.

What is tedious and time-consuming 
is doing it without the spirit.

Let me give you an example. 
I was helping my friend Marci

get started with family history
quite a few years ago.

I was kind of new to what I was
doing and hadn’t fully realized

the power of prayer and the 
power of following the spirit.

So Marci and I just met in 
the Family History Center and

sat down to work on her lines. 
I asked what she wanted to work on.

And she said, “Well, what about this?” 
So we got in there

and we looked and looked and tried
stuff and churned and finally

after 45 minutes or an hour, 
we both looked at each other and

agreed it wasn't working 
and didn't feel right.

It was a good learning 
experience that it took me

that long to realize 
that it wasn’t working.

And it was tedious. 
And it was time consuming.

And we both felt that we had not 
made the best use of our time.

But what was interesting 
is that after we realized that,

and then we sought the Lord 
and the inspiration of the Spirit,

we felt prompted to move 
to a different place

in her family tree 
and things just opened up.

And it was not tedious, 
and it was not time-consuming.

So, I really believe it’s a myth, 
and we do people a disservice

when we teach them family history 
is tedious and time-consuming.

So, technology can help us. 
It can take some of the searching.

We can search digital records 
so much more quickly than if we

had to travel to a court house. 
But family history only becomes

tedious and time-consuming when 
we’re not going by the Spirit.

It can be challenging, 
but it won’t be tedious

and it won’t be this 
terrible experience.

So, unintended consequences 
of those misconceptions,

let’s take a look at some of those.
Invalid or duplicate temple work.

We’ve talked a little bit 
about that with the high percentage

of green temples 
that are invalid.

Another problem that 
has surfaced within

the last year or so is using a 
name-finding app to take

names that somebody else is 
right in the process of reserving.

And then not realizing that names 
need to be added to Family Tree.

So if we think that Family Tree 
is this pool of names that

the Church has provided, 
then we don’t realize that

a lot of names are missing 
and that we are the ones

who are supposed to be 
adding those names.

And finally, another unintended 
consequence is not becoming

self-sufficient in finding names 
because we don’t think we have to

and so we don't and so we never 
learn to become self-sufficient.

I want to go into a little bit 
more detail about this problem

of taking names that other 
people are currently reserving.

I want to share two experiences 
that I had on that.

The first is that one of my friends 
called me almost in tears.

Her voice was teary when she said, 
“I’ve been working on this

such and such family.” 
She was pretty new to

family history at the time 
and she was learning to

do careful verification 
and find family and

it had just been such a beautiful 
experience for her to finally

take her own family 
names to the temple.

So she had found this family 
and she was very carefully

putting them in family tree, 
verifying the names,

adding the sources, 
and so forth and then,

before she could finally 
make the reservations,

someone else came through 
with a name-finding app

to reserve those green temples 
and took the names that

my friend had very carefully 
researched and verified,

and this other person 
had not done any

research or verification
on the names.

So that’s one experience that I 
learned first-hand from my friend.

And then I had an experience 
the other night,

where I was working on a name 
and I promise you the name had not

been available in the system 
for more than five minutes,

and I think it was more 
like about 3 minutes,

when somebody else came 
through and got the name.

I was in the very process of 
reserving it for temple work.

Now, it’s important to point out 
that it is not wrong to reserve a

name added by somebody else. 
That’s not what I’m saying.

So, my niece, just as an example, 
she loves doing family history

and the other day she had found 
some names that were very

difficult to find while she was 
working on our family.

So she found family names, 
but she found some other names

in that process, of people that it
took her awhile and they were

tricky to find. Well, she 
made the choice to put

those names in Family Tree because 
she suspected that it would be very

difficult for somebody else to 
repeat the research she had done.

So she put the names 
in Family Tree,

but because they weren’t on her
line she did not reserve them.

So if somebody comes along 
and reserves those names,

that’s why she put them there. 
So that is not a problem at all.

The problem arises when --
Well, I just have to ask myself,

is it fair to take names
that somebody else

has loved and labored 
over with no more

thought than running an 
automated name-finding program.

So to avoid this problem,
as you’ve probably noticed

if you’ve used one of these 
name-finding apps,

they don't tell, at least none
of the ones that I have tried,

tell you when the 
name was created.

And so, if a name 
was created,

and you can tell this is by 
looking in the change log.

Over on the right-hand side 
of the Person page,

there’s a link that says 
“Show All Changes.”

If you click that link and
scroll to the bottom,

it will tell you when 
that name was created.

So you can tell if the name was 
created within the last week

or maybe even within 
the last month,

it would be a nice courtesy 
to contact the person who

contributed that name and say, 
“I noticed that you

contributed this name. 
They’re on my family line too,

and I was hoping to reserve 
some names for the temple.

Are you OK with me 
reserving these names?”

And who knows, through that 
process you might meet a

cousin who you can collaborate 
on research with.

But just doing that resolves 
the problem of reserving names

that other people are right 
in the process of reserving.

You can imagine how discouraging 
that is, especially for a new

family historian, to be right in 
the process of adding names and

just have those names vanish
right before their eyes as

they’re trying to add them. 
That’s a reason that I recommend

not adding lots of names all at 
once with a name-finding app,

but rather checking those names 
and checking to make sure that

somebody else is not already 
planning to reserve those names.

Another problem is that people 
get the mindset that family

history means searching in 
Family Tree for names and

they don’t realize 
names need to be added.

So I did some checking and 
got some updated figures.

These population totals used 
to be higher but current estimates

are that about 100 to 115 billion 
people have lived on the earth

since the beginning 
of human history.

Only 1.1 billion people 
are in Family Tree.

I am not really good at math, 
but even I can figure out that

this leaves between 99 billion 
and 114 billion people

that probably need to be 
added to Family Tree.

Granted there are not records 
for many people who lived

back through time where either 
the records have been destroyed

or they didn’t keep them. 
So there are some of this

large group that we’re not going 
to be able to find records for,

but there are a surprisingly large 
number that do have records.

A lot of people still need
to be added to Family Tree

and it is an absolute joy. 
I don’t know that I’ve ever

felt the Spirit stronger 
than when I find a name

and add it to Family Tree. 
That person has just gone

from being lost to 
“getting in the queue”

of having the opportunity 
to get their temple work done.

Some more unintended 
consequences --

An unfortunate one 
that I’ve noticed

is relying on technology 
instead of the Spirit.

Now let me be careful to 
explain what I mean there.

One problem is that people 
trust technology more than

they trust themselves. 
I’ve been in information technology

for about 20 or 25 years now 
as a web designer,

as a database person, 
done different things

with technology and 
I love technology.

Technology is so 
miraculous to us

in so many ways that we give it 
more credit than it deserves.

We think it’s maybe a little 
more perfect then it is.

Because of that sometimes 
people will trust the technology

and not trust the Spirit. 
And usually in a case like that,

it’s not so much that they 
don’t trust the Spirit,

but more that they doubt the 
prompting that they’re hearing

because they think, “why 
am I getting that prompting

because the technology right
on my screen that I can trust,

or I feel I can trust, is showing 
me something different.”

If it’s a toss-up and they’re 
not quite sure that the Spirit’s

really speaking to them, 
I’ve seen that a lot of people

will tend to go with technology.
Another issue is that technology

can just make the Spirit 
seem unnecessary.

So it’s not that people are 
blocking the spirit

or ignoring the spirit, 
it’s just that if you use

a name-finding app and it 
presents you with 400 names

of people who apparently 
need temple work,

then why do you need to 
follow the Spirit on that,

The names are right I front of you. 
And I understand that.

I can see why people would.
It would not even occur to them

that they would need to follow 
the Spirit in a case like that

because the names have just been 
handed to them as they see it.

So another challenge that comes up, 
another unintended consequence is

that these misconceptions 
just spread like wildfire.

Because somebody reserves 
400 names or 8,000 or whatever,

and they feel that they’ve 
experienced such great success,

and they can’t wait to share 
it with everybody else.

Just in the last couple of weeks, 
I’ve seen people posting on facebook

and posting on forums, saying, 
“I’ve found this wonderful app,

and I reserved these hundreds 
of names and now I’m just so glad

that I did that and you 
guys should try it too.

So it just spreads because 
it sounds so fantastic.

And it sounds like it’s going to 
make a difficult task easier.

The problem is because people 
have these false expectations,

then when somebody tries to 
share the facts with them,

the facts are really not welcome. 
And that also is understandable.

Nobody likes to be disappointed 
in their expectations.

I’ll give you a couple of examples. 
There was someone on a public forum

who was talking about gathering 
hundreds and hundreds of names,

and submitting them to the temple. 
When a few of us very gently tried

to suggest that a lot of the names 
gathered that way probably

weren’t valid and at least 
they should be verified,

the person responded, 
“Do you mean to tell me that

the Church has spent millions 
of dollars to make Family Tree

and the names in it aren’t 
even ready for temple work?”

So that was shock to them and 
it was a huge disappointment,

because they had been led to 
believe that all they had to do

was run an app and gather 
names out of Family Tree.

Another person that I was 
helping not too long ago,

we sat down and he happily showed
me his name-finding results,

where he had around 300 names 
that the app had found

and he said, “Isn’t this great? 
I’d like to get these names done.”

And I said, “I’m so glad 
you found those names.

We really should verify them. 
There’s a chance that some

of them may not be accurate 
and it’s always just a good idea

to go through and attach 
some sources and so forth.”

And he just said, 
“No, I’d really rather not.

The names look ready to me so I 
think I’m just going to go ahead.”

Of course as a consultant, you 
can’t put your foot down and say

“NO! You’re not submitting those 
names until you’ve verified them.”

We all have our agency 
and we’re all responsible,

but I have to think that this 
brother had very good intentions,

I know he had very good intentions, 
and I have to think that one reason

he felt that it was appropriate was 
because he had used an app that

presented those names to him as 
apparently needing temple work,

and it just seemed superfluous that
he would need to verify them.

For the last part of these 
unintended consequences,

I want to talk about some of the 
more spiritual downsides to using

name-finding apps and gathering 
large numbers of names.

What I’m noticing among people 
that have done this is that they

don’t really get to know the 
people whose names they’re

reserving so their hearts 
aren’t really turned.

All those people are 
is names on a list to them.

Don’t get me wrong, 
they feel a general sense of

“Wow, this is great! Now 
their temple work can be done.”

That is wonderful but they don’t 
know anything about these people.

Where did they live? 
What was their life like?

What did they experience that has 
contributed to the way I live?

What sacrifices did they 
make that enabled me

to enjoy the blessings 
I have today?

So when we don’t dig into those 
names as we’ve actually been

counselled to do then we lose 
something really precious and,

in my experience, people’s hearts 
are not turned by just

submitting names from an app, 
and especially just by submitting

large numbers of names 
that aren’t verified.

Another problem that I’ve seen 
is that an app can encourage

people to have that 
“one and done” mentality,

like the woman that I mentioned, 
I don’t think I told this

whole story in this webinar, 
but I mentioned somebody

who found 8,000 names. 
She was a sister from California,

who had been taught to use a 
name-finding app and didn’t realize

that there were some possible 
problems with it so she had just

reserved all these names and 
shared them with the temple system

and thought, “OK, that’s done. 
I’ve fulfilled my obligation

to family history.” 
What’s interesting about

family history is that, 
as Boyd K. Packer said,

there is no work that is 
more spiritually refining.

When we treat it like 
a “one and done”

I think we miss out on that 
spiritual refinement.

We don’t have that on-going 
blessing of learning to

recognize the spirit, 
of connecting with our ancestors,

of discovering 
our family stories.

And so, I think we rob ourselves 
of that blessing when we make

family history into a 
“one and done” experience.

I debated whether or not to share 
this next one because once

in a while people have gotten 
offended at my bringing this up.

But, I’ve experienced it myself and 
I’ve talked to so many other people

that have experienced it that I 
think it’s worth mentioning.

And that is, that when we submit 
invalid names for temple work,

our temple experience 
is less meaningful.

And I think there’s a 
good reason for that.

As perhaps you have, I have been 
in the temple when I have

literally felt the gratitude of the
person whose work I was doing.

I could tell they were pleased. 
I could tell that they accepted

the work and that they were so 
happy about the chance to progress.

I don’t think I would feel that 
same joy and gratitude from

somebody if I were doing their 
work for the 20th time.

I had a friend who had an 
experience that illustrated

this not too long ago.
He had gone to the baptistery

to do some family names
that he had carefully

researched and validated and 
he said that the Spirit was so

strong during that experience. 
He was just overjoyed to tell that

those people were happy 
about their temple work.

So after he did the work 
for his ancestors,

apparently it wasn’t a very busy 
day so the officiator asked if he

could stay and do other names. 
And so he agreed gladly and

started doing the names. 
As he did, he noticed that the

wonderful feelings were no longer 
present, and that seemed strange.

As they went through the names, 
what he started to notice is that

there were a couple of them that 
were apparently the wrong gender.

They were clearly women’s names 
that were being baptized as men.

And also there were some dates 
that were suspect and some places,

and things that you could just
tell that these names

had not been very 
carefully researched.

And for my friend, 
that was just another testimony

that when we are careless with 
our family names and don’t

properly verify them, 
and then if we do work and

the names turn out to be invalid, 
it’s not going to be as meaningful

of a temple experience. 
Now the reason some people have

expressed concern before, 
is that they’ve misunderstood me

to say the temple’s not 
a good experience.

No, that’s not what I’m saying. 
But what I am saying is that

if we’re careful about doing 
our research and we find

valid names and we’re guided by 
the Spirit in doing that work,

then we’re going to have an 
especially beautiful experience

at the temple which we 
might not otherwise have.

Let’s return, if you don’t mind, 
to the misconception that I said

was one of my greatest concerns, 
and that is that we're teaching

people that family history 
is tedious and difficult.

And in this particular context 
people are being taught that

it's tedious and difficult 
without the app.

The truth is 
family history is

tedious and difficult 
without the Spirit.

What I’d like to do now 
is show you an alternative

approach to using 
name finding apps,

especially to find 
large numbers of names.

A little while ago, 
the Church did some research

and I learned about this 
in a presentation that I attended

by a brother named Mike Sandberg 
who works for family search.

He said that the Church 
had done research on people

who were not submitting 
any temple names at all

and suddenly they went to 
submitting names regularly.

So naturally, the Church 
had a burning question.

How did they make the transition? 
What enabled them to go from

not submitting any names at all 
to successfully submitting

temple names regularly? 
What they found out

was very interesting. 
85% of those who made this

transition had a helper and 65% 
of them got help multiple times.

So the Church discovered that 
having a person to help or mentor

somebody new to family history 
was the key to success.

If this is sounding familiar 
to any of you, you will realize

that this became the basis for the 
Church’s Find-Take-Teach program.

Find-Take-Teach is a Spirit-led, 
one-on-one effort

where help is given 
by a person who pays the price

to know how to help 
that person by the Spirit.

Let me go ahead and show you 
in a little more detail

why this approach works. 
I’m simplifying this.

If you want more information 
you can look on FamilySearch.org.

They’ve got a complete 
description of it.

But very simply, the helper and 
the patron both pray for guidance

and then the helper prepares a 
personalized lesson by the Spirit.

And during this lesson, 
also by the Spirit,

they find a starting place 
for this person

or they find valid temple 
names for the person.

Finally, when they get together, 
the helper guides the patron

in a one-on-one setting to 
reserve those temple names.

I want to show you as a person who 
has responsibility currently for

helping and mentoring people, 
I want to show you the process

that I go through to find a good 
starting place when I’m working

with somebody in a 
Find-Take-Teach experience.

This is not the only way to do it. 
It’s the way that works best for me

and I have other friends that are 
equally successful in using

different approaches but I can 
speak to what works for me.

I hope that this example 
might be helpful to you

in finding your own best approach.
So the first, most important thing

for me is that I have to go 
some place quiet where I can

hear the Spirit in preparing 
this Find-Take-Teach experience.

I can’t be where I’m distracted. 
I can’t be where I feel pressured.

I have to be in a place 
where I can truly feel

the inspiration 
of the Holy Ghost.

So, I make those arrangements, 
whatever it takes.

In one of my classes a sister said 
that she can’t do it at home.

There’s just no way, 
even in the bathroom

it’s like knock, knock, knock 
“Mom! Are you in there?”

So what she does is she 
goes to the public library

where people are 
supposed to be quiet.

And so that place works for her. 
You might find a different quiet

place that works for you. 
But whatever you do,

find a place where you can be 
in tune with the Spirit.

And then, I bring up the Fan Chart, 
that’s my favorite place to work.

And I listen for what I call 
“heart tugs” which are

spiritual promptings to me 
that somebody is wanting

their temple work to be done. 
So here’s an example.

I had offered to help a sister 
at the MTC as part of a

Find-Take-Teach experience there. 
This sister had a very full tree

and she wasn’t convinced that we 
would be able to find anything.

So I asked for her
helper number.

The place where we were working 
that Sunday in the MTC was very

noisy and I knew that it was 
not a good place for me to

really hear the Spirit and 
find a good starting place.

I asked for her helper number and we
arranged to meet the following week.

And I went to a place where 
I could listen to the Spirit.

As I did, I prayed sincerely, and 
I had asked her to pray with me.

And so, I looked at the fan chart 
and as I pondered and looked and

clicked on a few different names, 
I found that I was drawn to this

name of Abraham Chadwick. 
So I thought, "OK, I’ll follow that

prompting and I will 
check Abraham’s

Person page and see
what’s going on there."

Well, as my friend mentioned, 
he had done a lot.

As it turned out, and I had no way 
of knowing this of course,

he was the first member of their 
family to join the Church.

So as I looked here and read 
his personal history and clicked

on his wives’ names and 
his children’s names,

sure enough all their work 
was done and it was evident

that he was a good, faithful 
man from reading his testimony.

So I thought, "Wow, this might 
be harder than I thought."

But I continued to pray and ask 
the Spirit for guidance to be led

to that place where the 
Spirit wanted me to work

for my dear sister in the MTC. 
And as I did, again just another

line-upon-line gentle prompting, 
I found that I was

led to this name of 
Sarah Ann Chadwick.

So I looked at that and 
this is what I found.

She had a husband, George Bradbury, 
and they had six kids.

And all their work was done too, 
so I’m so grateful that by this

point I had learned better 
how to recognize the Spirit,

because in my younger days I might 
have doubted myself and just said,

“Wow, I’ve been digging around here 
and I’m not finding anything so that

might not really have 
been the Spirit.”

I might have questioned myself. 
But because I had, fortunately,

tried really hard to grow in my 
ability, and I’m far from perfect,

but I’d really tried to grow in 
my ability to hear the Spirit,

I trusted these promptings. 
I thought, “I’m gonna keep going.

I am not sure why ‘cause this 
isn’t looking too good,

but I’m gonna keep trying.” 
So I clicked on the first name of

their first son and that’s when I 
started to feel that I was going

the right direction. 
And so the first thing that caught

my attention was that Samuel’s wife 
didn’t even have a last name.

So that indicated more research 
definitely needed to be done.

And I noticed that they 
didn’t have many children.

Back in the 1800’s, most families 
had a large number of children.

With just a little bit of research, 
it wasn’t like I took days and days,

in fact I don’t think 
it was even hours,

it was just a little quick checking 
in Ancestry and FamilySearch

historical records. 
It didn’t take long to discover

that Samuel and Kate were missing 
four children from Family Tree.

These children were not there and 
needed to be added so that their

temple work could be done. 
And then I thought,

“OK, that is why I 
got that prompting.”

I think the reason I was prompted 
to start with Abraham was that if

I got a prompting like suppose 
that the name Samuel Bradbury

came into my mind, I would not 
have a clue what to do with it.

And so the Spirit led me along a
path where I could see how this

family first got involved with 
the Church and then how these

people who needed their ordinances 
were related to that first convert.

So this was just a wonderful, 
beautiful experience in

finding these names. 
Also, as I did more research,

I found in the 1911 census that 
Kate had died and so Samuel had

remarried and his second wife 
Ada Sarah was not in

Family Tree either, and her 
temple work needed to be done.

So just from following that 
prompting, I was able to find and

verify these five names and pass 
those on to the sister in the MTC

so that she could get 
that temple work done.

Another example on this family, 
was that when I looked at Hannah,

Samuel’s younger sister, 
she did not have a spouse.

Again, just a little 
bit of research.

This wasn’t hours of looking 
through court records or something,

this was doing a search on 
Ancestry in available censuses.

In just a short period of time 
I discovered that at one point

Hannah had been living 
with her mother.

And so there was the definite proof 
there that this really was my

Hannah that I was looking for, 
and found out that she did have a

husband and they had 
three children together.

Right there were four more names, 
four valid names that needed

to be added to Family Tree.
So that is an example of how

to follow the Spirit to find 
a place to work in Family Tree.

But I was mentioning this to a dear
sister in my stake who I was

helping get started with family 
history and this is what she said,

“I don’t think I’m that good 
at hearing the Spirit.”

I have to tell you 
something about this sister.

She is amazing! She serves people. 
She’s wonderful.

I don’t think she was giving 
herself enough credit.

But, I think all of us have felt 
that kind of sense of inadequacy.

I know I certainly did, especially 
when I was first starting to really

try to follow the Spirit 
in family history.

Fortunately we all learn to hear 
the Spirit line upon line.

Wherever you are in learning 
to follow the Spirit,

wherever I am, that’s a place 
to start growing from.

In fact the only place we can start 
growing from is where we are.

So we all learn to hear the 
Spirit line upon line,

and to me that is such good news, 
because that’s doable.

I can do that. 
I can grow line upon line.

And the wonderful thing I that have 
found about family history,

and to me it’s one of its greatest, 
greatest blessings is that it is

simply one of the best tutorials 
in learning to hear the Spirit.

I could give you dozens of 
examples on this, but I won’t.

I’ve got a whole other webinar 
on that and I’ll show you the

link at the end of this one and 
you can watch that if you'd like.

I have found as I listen to the 
Spirit in doing family history,

I’ve learned more about how the
Spirit speaks to me and that

knowledge has grown over the years 
as I continue to hear promptings

and discern then correctly, 
and sometimes not correctly.

I learn from making mistakes too. 
But the point that I wanted to

make is that family history 
is one of the very best

tutorials in learning 
to hear the Spirit.

And if we don’t try to follow the 
Spirit in family history then we

lose that great opportunity of 
refining our ability to hear.

Hearing the Spirit better brings 
blessings in all areas of our lives.

I love this quote by Joseph Smith, 
and it’s something that I have

experienced doing family history. 
And that is that a person may

profit by noticing the 
first intimation (or hint)

of the spirit of revelation.
It may give you sudden strokes

of ideas like call so and so, 
or sit here at this meeting

because you don’t know this 
but you’re going to find somebody

to help you with temple names, 
or there’s a mistake in your record,

go back and check it. 
So it may give you these sudden

strokes of ideas so that by 
noticing it you find it fulfilled.

So you find that prompting 
you got was a real

prompting because whatever
it told you about was true.

So you find it fulfilled 
the same day or soon

and thus by learning the Spirit 
of God and understanding it,

you may grow into the 
principle of revelation.

And it’s my testimony that this 
is absolutely true and that doing

family history gives 
you the opportunity

to grow in hearing 
revelation in this way.

So, closing thoughts. 
This is something that comes up

from time to time when we 
talk about the problems with

misusing name-finding apps. 
So the person will say,

“But, the app I’m using is 
certified by FamilySearch.

Doesn’t that mean that it 
finds valid names?”

And that’s understandable why 
people would think that because

the word “certified” sounds 
really official, doesn’t it.

It sounds like there’s some 
type of guarantee on the app

that it’s going to perform 
as I expect it to.

But, that’s actually not the case. 
The short answer is no,

being certified doesn’t guarantee 
finding valid names.

And, in fact, it doesn’t have 
anything to do with valid names.

Let’s take a look at what 
FamilySearch certification means.

This is a direct quote from the 
FamilySearch certification site.

The reason most people probably 
don’t read this is that it’s

geared towards developers. 
So most of us don’t have any

reason to go out to this site. 
But, listen to what it says.

The designation is simply used 
to identify software applications

that FamilySearch believes to be 
generally compatible with

FamilySearch or its application 
programming interfaces,

which is basically the way the 
programs talk to each other.

So FamilySearch believes that 
this app is generally compatible

but FamilySearch takes no 
responsibility and is no way

liable for any such application. 
Accordingly, FamilySearch in no way

warrants that these applications 
will function as intended or that

they are free from harmful 
or undesirable aspects

or free from errors. 
So, the reason I bring this up

is just to help us understand 
that to say an app is FamilySearch

certified is a wonderful thing and 
it does mean something specific.

It means that you can generally
count on it to work correctly with

the FamilySearch.org website, 
but it does not guarantee anything

about the app being used in a 
certain way, or misused, or any

problem that result from its use.
Here’s another thing that I hear

sometimes in talking with a couple 
of different app developers or

reading their websites. 
They say, “I’m an app developer

and my app warns people that they 
should research the names that

they find so isn’t that enough?” 
You would hope that it would be.

You would hope that everybody 
reads the fine print,

but my own experience is that 
I don’t always read the fine print.

Sometimes if I’m in a hurry 
I just glance at it and think

"I don't have time for this."
My experience is most people don't

read the warnings not only for 
these apps but for anything.

In fact, I’ll give you an example. 
The other day I was helping

somebody in a Find-Take-Teach 
experience and several warnings

came up during the process of 
our working together and

the person I was helping just
clicked right past the warnings.

And the sense that I got was that 
they felt that they would not

have understood the warnings anyway
so why bother to read them.

So maybe it was a little sense of 
technophobia or inadequacy or

whatever, but for whatever reason, 
most people don’t read the warnings

on these apps or anyplace else.
I’ve also found that the few people

who read the warnings don’t really 
understand how to apply it because

often the main users of 
name-finding apps are people

who are just getting started 
in family history and

somebody has told them about 
the app and said this is a

quick and easy way to 
find temple names.

So they get to the app, 
and if they read the warning,

they go, “Oh, Okay, I’ll research, 
whatever that means.”

And so they reserve their 
hundred names, or whatever,

and then they look at the list 
of a hundred and they go,

“Well, looks fine to me. 
I’m not really sure what I’m

looking for but I don’t see any 
problems so I guess I’ll go ahead.”

And we can’t fault people for 
that because if they’re just

getting started and they don’t 
understand, then they’re doing

their best to follow the warning 
but they didn’t really understand

what the app developer 
meant by the warning.

So, that’s an example of how just 
putting a warning on an app doesn’t

really help solve the problem of 
the app being misused to find

invalid names or large 
numbers of names.

So at this point you might 
be asking yourself,

what if I submitted a lot of names 
like the dear sister in California

that has submitted 8,000 names 
gathered with a name-finding app?

Well, if the names are in your 
reservation list, verify them.

You’ve got them. There's no
reason to not verify them.

What that means is not just kind of 
looking at them and going

“Well, I don’t see any problems,” 
but rather going back and verifying

is the vital information correct? 
Is it supported by sources?

Are the relationships correct? 
Are there any obvious problems

like the mom having kids 
when she’s age four?

So verifying
those names,

you can’t really verify 
names en masse.

You need to verify 
them individually,

just like when the Savior had 
the individuals come to him.

When he appeared in the Americas, 
they came one by one.

We also need to verify 
names one by one

and make sure that
they’re correct.

So that, of course, is not 
necessarily a short process,

especially if you have 8,000 
names in your temple queue.

So if it’s going to take longer 
than two years before the names

will be released by the Church, 
then you probably would want to

put those names back in 
FamilySearch and let other people

go ahead and reserve them and 
hopefully they would reserve

just a few and they would 
carefully verify them.

If the ordinances 
are already done,

don’t worry about it. 
Don’t beat yourself up.

I know of people who have 
beat themselves up.

Like a sister I’m aware of 
who found out that she had,

after reserving green temple names
and doing about 30 ordinances,

a cousin contacted her and said, 
“Did you realize you just did

all this duplicate work? 
Those names were done years ago.

And she was so hurt and so 
frustrated and so disappointed

because she had been told that the
right thing to do was just gather

these green names and that
she didn’t need to verify them.

So she was so hurt and disappointed
that she exclaimed,

“I am never doing 
family history again!”

Now, hopefully after she thought 
about it she changed her mind.

That was hopefully just said in the 
disappointment of the moment,

but that’s what we don’t want 
to do is beat ourselves up.

If you’ve done some of these names, 
especially if you did them with

the best of intentions, 
consider it a learning

experience and just say, “Okay, 
that’s water under the bridge.

Going forward I’ll know 
better what to do.”

And, you can help people that you
talk to be aware of these problems

so that they don’t run into 
the same types of issues.

Your next question might be, 
are you saying that I should

never use a name-finding app? 
No, I’m not saying that,

because it is possible to use name-
finding apps to find valid names.

It's just that in my experience, 
and this is anecdotal,

so this is just my experience
as a Stake Temple and

Family History Consultant
and a ward consultant

in a number of different 
wards, it’s been my experience

that they usually aren’t 
used to find valid names.

Most of the time the people 
who are using them have been

told that it’s a fast 
and easy way to find

temple names and they’re 
not told about verification.

So, if I use a name finding app, 
how can I find valid names?

You can! So here are some tips 
for finding valid names

with name-finding apps.
First of all, most importantly,

seek the guidance of the Spirit. 
I know a woman who started to use

a name-finding app and the 
Spirit told her not to.

Now that was specifically 
for her situation.

That should not be 
generalized to anybody else

in any other situation.
That was just in hers.

But, she was told not to 
and if she had disobeyed

the Spirit, then that would 
have been a mistake for her.

So you want to seek the 
guidance of the Spirit

in using the name-finding apps, 
and if you’re warned

not to use them, then don’t. 
On the other hand, if you’re

told to use them by a definite 
spiritual prompting then do.

Verify each and every name 
carefully that you find.

So verify the vital information, 
the relationships,

check for duplicates, add sources, 
make sure the vital information

agrees with the sources. 
And here a tip is to use

one or more names as a starting 
point to find and add more names.

So you can find, maybe a couple 
of names using a name-finding app

and then go back to Family Tree and 
thoroughly research those names and

see if anybody’s missing, 
kind of as we did in the example

that I showed you of the Find-
Take-Teach experience in the MTC.

And then finally, I found 
that it really helps to work

on one family at a time, rather
than a large list of random names.

The reason it’s helpful to work on 
one family at a time is that you

get to know that family, 
you become familiar with

the place that they lived, 
with what they did for a living,

with how many children they had, 
with when their kids left home

and got married, and so forth.
And so, as you follow

this family through time, 
as you find their birth records,

their census records, 
their death records,

all those different things that 
help you know that family,

then you’re able to correctly 
find the information for them,

validate those names and 
add them to Family Tree.

And I felt so much more 
comfortable working in

family units to add names
to Family Tree rather than

just working from a mass list of 
random names that are just in

whatever order they were found 
by the name-finding app.

So, therefore what? 
Do you remember President Packer

used to say this a lot, 
so what are the takeaways that

I hope we’ll get from this webinar? 
Well, if you are a user

of a name-finding app, 
the takeaways are

I hope that you would be aware 
of the potential problems

that we’ve talked about today 
and also that you’d help others

be aware because there’s so many 
misconceptions going around,

that you would use these apps 
as guided by the Spirit,

that you would remember 
that there are so many names

that still need to be
added to Family Tree,

that you would realize 
that a good helper can help you

in a way that an app can’t, 
and that you would remember

that technology doesn’t replace
thought, research, or the Spirit.

As amazing as technology is, 
it’s not perfect and we need

to use it as a tool and 
as a companion to our

spiritual efforts but not 
as a replacement for them.

If you are a developer, 
what would I hope that

you would take away from 
this webinar today?

I would love to see app 
developers educate people about

the data in Family Tree to 
combat those misconceptions.

Again, I don’t think most 
developers are setting out

to tell people wrong facts 
about the data in Family Tree.

They’re not meaning to 
communicate misconceptions,

but users pick them up anyway, 
especially when they’re shared

word of mouth from user to user 
or posted on Facebook or wherever.

So app developers could do 
a huge favor to users

by educating them about 
the data in Family Tree.

Also, teach people that 
Family Tree is not meant

to be a primary source 
for finding names.

Yes, there are some great, valid 
green temple names in Family Tree,

but Family Tree was never intended 
to be a primary source of temple

names so we don’t have to find our 
own family or do our own research.

I would love it if app developers
did not give users the impression

that family history without the 
app is difficult and tedious.

Again, family history is only 
difficult and tedious

if we don’t have the Spirit. Let
me take that back on difficult.

There can be challenges, 
especially in some time periods

and some places, but what I found 
is that if you follow the Spirit,

you’ll be led to solve those 
problems and there’s a

sense of joy and it’s not 
difficult in a horrible way.

It’s difficult in a challenging 
and invigorating way.

So, I would love for this 
misconception to be done

away with in the Church, 
that family history is synonymous

with difficult and tedious. 
I would also love it if apps

put caps on the number 
of names that they found.

I’m aware of some that do, 
but to my understanding,

there are some that don’t, 
that allow users to just grab

huge numbers of names and 
submit them for temple work.

I was talking with some friends 
the other day about the problems

that we continue to see with people 
submitting large numbers of invalid

names using name-finding 
apps and we would love it if

there was some kind of
feature that would allow

people to clean up those large 
numbers of the invalid names

that have been submitted, 
whether it was some

super duplicate search or 
something, I don’t know.

This was on our wish list. 
We thought it would be

so wonderful if there was 
some way to clean up

those many invalid names 
that have been submitted.

I would like to close with 
a quote from David Rancher,

who is currently the chief 
genealogical officer

at FamilySearch. 
He said, “I love my computer.

I love it for everything 
it can do for me,

but the computer is not 
what turns my heart.

What turns my heart are the 
experiences and the impressions

I have from the Spirit and the 
things that I know and understand.

So that concludes 
our webinar for today.

I wanted to share with you those
promised additional resources.

The first one is a list of other 
webinars that you can get on this

link down at the bottom and 
they are webinars that go into

more detail about what 
we’ve talked about today.

Many times people use name-finding 
apps because they’ve been told that

it is the only way to find 
success as a beginner.

And, unfortunately, I’ve 
even seen this attitude

among consultants where 
they will say it is too hard

to teach a beginner to do 
careful family history.

They’re going to get discouraged
and they won’t do it.

And so therefore I have to teach 
them to use the name-finding app.

Well of course, Find-Take-Teach 
has turned that on its head.

As a helper prepares a Spirit-led 
Find-Take-Teach experience

to find valid names, beginners do 
learn to do valid family history.

So that first webinar kind 
of touches on that subject.

The second one dives more 
into using the Holy Ghost

in family history, duplicates 
in Family Tree, obviously.

And then the last one goes into 
a lot more detail on understanding

the data in Family Tree,
where it came from and

what some of the additional 
challenges are with it.

And then lastly, 
I want to recommend to you

this amazing book that I just love. 
It’s available at Deseret Book.

It’s called "Hearts Turned 
to the Fathers,"

and it’s a history of family 
history since the restoration.

So it starts out from 
the beginning of the

restored gospel to about 
the 1990’s when the book was

published and when FamilySearch 
was just gaining traction.

So if you love family history 
I think you would love this book.

So thank you everybody for your 
time and attention today

and I hope that this webinar 
is helpful to you,

hope that it makes your 
family history more meaningful

and more successful. 
Thank you.

(Sean) Okay thank you so much 
to Kathryn for that wonderful

presentation. I would just like 
to remind everybody that these

webinars will be uploaded onto 
YouTube and our channel name

is BYU Family History Library. 
If you could, before you leave

the webinar today, look at the 
different polls that we have

down at the bottom 
of the screen.

We’d love to hear any feedback 
that you have or suggestions

to different topics that you’d 
like us to cover in the future.

That would be very helpful for us 
and our different presenters.

And again, thanks to Kathryn for 
that wonderful presentation today

and we hope to see you guys at our 
next webinar. Alright, Bye.