1 00:00:01,116 --> 00:00:05,869 Would you ever forgive a person who kills a member of your family? 2 00:00:07,027 --> 00:00:09,712 In September of 2019, 3 00:00:09,736 --> 00:00:14,447 Dallas police officer Amber Guyger was sentenced for murder, 4 00:00:15,558 --> 00:00:19,156 and then the brother of the victim 5 00:00:19,180 --> 00:00:20,559 forgave her. 6 00:00:21,845 --> 00:00:24,560 Brandt Jean was 18 years old, 7 00:00:24,584 --> 00:00:30,253 and I joined the rest of the country watching on television in awe 8 00:00:30,277 --> 00:00:32,055 at that act of grace. 9 00:00:32,784 --> 00:00:34,379 But I also worried. 10 00:00:35,286 --> 00:00:40,034 I worried that people who are African American like Brandt Jean 11 00:00:40,058 --> 00:00:43,549 are expected to forgive more often than other people. 12 00:00:44,801 --> 00:00:48,535 And I worried that a white police officer like Amber Guyger 13 00:00:48,559 --> 00:00:50,864 receives a lesser sentence 14 00:00:50,888 --> 00:00:53,945 than other people who commit wrongful killings. 15 00:00:54,841 --> 00:00:56,772 But because I'm a law professor, 16 00:00:57,750 --> 00:01:00,824 I also worried about the law itself. 17 00:01:01,764 --> 00:01:06,653 The law leans so severely towards punishment these days 18 00:01:06,677 --> 00:01:09,205 that it's part of the problem. 19 00:01:09,814 --> 00:01:11,984 And that's what I want to talk about here. 20 00:01:13,035 --> 00:01:17,527 The powerful example of one individual's forgiveness 21 00:01:17,551 --> 00:01:23,385 makes me worry that lawyers and officials too often overlook the tools 22 00:01:23,409 --> 00:01:27,975 that law itself creates to allow forgiveness, 23 00:01:27,999 --> 00:01:32,965 when the principle should be the cornerstone of a thriving society. 24 00:01:34,145 --> 00:01:40,304 I worry that lawyers and officials do not adequately use the tools of forgiveness, 25 00:01:40,328 --> 00:01:44,578 by which I mean letting go of justified grievance. 26 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:46,283 And those tools are many. 27 00:01:46,307 --> 00:01:51,369 They include pardons, commutations, expungement, 28 00:01:51,393 --> 00:01:53,389 bankruptcy for debt, 29 00:01:53,413 --> 00:01:57,786 and the discretion that's held by police and prosecutors and judges. 30 00:01:59,072 --> 00:02:01,335 But I also worry -- I worry a lot -- 31 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:02,384 (Laughter) 32 00:02:02,408 --> 00:02:08,806 I worry these tools, when used, replicate the disparities, 33 00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:12,666 the inequities along the lines of race and class and other markers 34 00:02:12,690 --> 00:02:14,612 of advantage and disadvantage. 35 00:02:15,025 --> 00:02:18,723 Biases or privileged access are at work 36 00:02:18,747 --> 00:02:24,602 when United States presidents pardon people charged with crimes. 37 00:02:25,027 --> 00:02:29,220 Historically, white people are pardoned four times as often 38 00:02:29,244 --> 00:02:34,461 as members of minority groups for the same crime, same sentence. 39 00:02:35,576 --> 00:02:41,462 Forgiveness between individuals is supported by every religious tradition, 40 00:02:41,486 --> 00:02:43,625 every philosophic tradition. 41 00:02:43,649 --> 00:02:46,217 And medical evidence now shows 42 00:02:46,241 --> 00:02:51,273 the health benefits of letting go of grievances and resentments. 43 00:02:52,193 --> 00:02:56,794 As Nelson Mandela led South Africa's transition 44 00:02:56,818 --> 00:02:58,506 from apartheid to democracy, 45 00:02:58,530 --> 00:03:00,290 he explained, 46 00:03:00,314 --> 00:03:06,654 "Resentment is like drinking a poison and hoping it will kill your enemies." 47 00:03:08,352 --> 00:03:12,777 Law can remove the penalties for those who apologize and seek forgiveness. 48 00:03:12,801 --> 00:03:16,570 For example, in 39 states in the United States 49 00:03:16,594 --> 00:03:18,570 and the District of Columbia, 50 00:03:18,594 --> 00:03:22,152 there are laws that allow medical professionals to apologize 51 00:03:22,176 --> 00:03:23,383 when something goes wrong 52 00:03:23,407 --> 00:03:28,037 and not fear that that statement could later be used against them 53 00:03:28,061 --> 00:03:30,737 in an action for damages. 54 00:03:31,086 --> 00:03:35,903 More actively, bankruptcy law offers debtors, under some conditions, 55 00:03:35,927 --> 00:03:37,625 the chance to start anew. 56 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:42,538 Pardons and expungements sealing criminal records can, too. 57 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,800 I have been teaching law for almost 40 years, hard to believe, 58 00:03:49,824 --> 00:03:52,630 but recently, I realized 59 00:03:52,654 --> 00:03:56,917 that we don't teach law students about the tools of forgiveness 60 00:03:56,941 --> 00:03:58,545 that are within the legal system, 61 00:03:58,569 --> 00:04:02,227 and nor do law schools usually explore 62 00:04:02,251 --> 00:04:05,650 the potential for new avenues for forgiveness 63 00:04:05,674 --> 00:04:07,904 that law can adopt or assist. 64 00:04:08,564 --> 00:04:10,670 These are lost opportunities. 65 00:04:10,694 --> 00:04:13,464 These are lost obligations, even, 66 00:04:13,488 --> 00:04:16,948 because the students that I teach 67 00:04:16,972 --> 00:04:22,399 will become prosecutors, judges, governors, presidents. 68 00:04:23,063 --> 00:04:25,488 Barack Obama, my former student, 69 00:04:25,512 --> 00:04:31,434 used his power as the President of the United States to give pardons. 70 00:04:31,902 --> 00:04:36,993 That released several hundred people from prison after the law changed 71 00:04:37,017 --> 00:04:39,874 to provide shorter sentences for the same drug crimes 72 00:04:39,898 --> 00:04:41,554 for which they had been convicted. 73 00:04:41,578 --> 00:04:45,538 But if he hadn't used his pardon power, they would still be in prison. 74 00:04:46,752 --> 00:04:50,055 Legal tools of forgiveness should be used more, 75 00:04:50,079 --> 00:04:53,539 but not without reason and not with bias. 76 00:04:53,563 --> 00:04:58,286 A "New Yorker" cartoon shows a judge with a big nose and a big mustache 77 00:04:58,310 --> 00:05:01,818 looking down at a defendant with the exact same nose 78 00:05:01,842 --> 00:05:03,306 and exact same mustache 79 00:05:03,330 --> 00:05:05,750 and says, "Obviously not guilty." 80 00:05:05,774 --> 00:05:07,226 (Laughter) 81 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:11,531 Forgiveness could undermine the commitment that law has 82 00:05:11,555 --> 00:05:15,778 to treat people the same under the same circumstances, 83 00:05:15,802 --> 00:05:17,707 to apply rules evenly. 84 00:05:17,731 --> 00:05:22,181 In this age of resentment, mass incarceration, 85 00:05:22,205 --> 00:05:24,776 widespread consumer debt, 86 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,182 we need more forgiveness, but we need a philosophy of forgiveness. 87 00:05:29,206 --> 00:05:31,389 We need to forgive fairly. 88 00:05:32,928 --> 00:05:37,398 Contrast the treatment globally of child soldiers 89 00:05:37,422 --> 00:05:41,422 with the treatment of juvenile offenders in the United States. 90 00:05:42,072 --> 00:05:45,644 International human rights condemn and punish adults 91 00:05:45,668 --> 00:05:48,369 who involve children in armed conflict 92 00:05:48,393 --> 00:05:50,419 as those most responsible, 93 00:05:50,443 --> 00:05:54,053 but treat the children themselves quite differently. 94 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,702 The International Criminal Court, 95 00:05:56,726 --> 00:06:00,113 now with 122 member nations, 96 00:06:00,137 --> 00:06:04,708 convicted Thomas Lubanga, warlord in the [Democratic Republic of the] Congo, 97 00:06:04,732 --> 00:06:11,627 for enlisting, recruiting and deploying children, teens, as soldiers. 98 00:06:12,096 --> 00:06:17,001 Many nations commit to ensuring that people under the age of 15 99 00:06:17,025 --> 00:06:18,926 do not become child soldiers, 100 00:06:18,950 --> 00:06:23,231 and most nations treat those who do become soldiers 101 00:06:23,255 --> 00:06:25,584 not as objects of punishment 102 00:06:25,608 --> 00:06:28,045 but as people deserving a fresh start. 103 00:06:28,901 --> 00:06:34,717 Compare and contrast how the United States treats juvenile offenders, 104 00:06:34,741 --> 00:06:37,171 where we severely punish minors, 105 00:06:37,195 --> 00:06:41,256 often moving them to adult courts, even adult prisons. 106 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:44,068 And yet, like child soldiers, 107 00:06:44,092 --> 00:06:48,764 teens and children are drawn into violent activity in the United States 108 00:06:48,788 --> 00:06:50,954 when there are few options, 109 00:06:50,978 --> 00:06:52,232 when they are threatened 110 00:06:52,256 --> 00:06:56,389 or when adults induce them with money or ideology. 111 00:06:57,451 --> 00:07:03,625 The rhetoric of innocence is resonant when we talk about child soldiers, 112 00:07:03,649 --> 00:07:08,121 but not when we talk about teen gang members in the United States. 113 00:07:08,883 --> 00:07:13,084 Yet in both settings, youth are caught in worlds that are made by adults, 114 00:07:13,108 --> 00:07:16,839 and forgiveness can offer both accountability and fresh starts. 115 00:07:17,914 --> 00:07:23,069 What if, instead, young people caught in criminal activity and violence 116 00:07:23,093 --> 00:07:26,675 could have chances to accept responsibility 117 00:07:26,699 --> 00:07:31,863 while learning and rebuilding their lives and their own communities? 118 00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:36,121 Legal frameworks inviting youth to describe their conduct 119 00:07:36,145 --> 00:07:39,802 could also involve community members to hear and forgive. 120 00:07:40,365 --> 00:07:42,009 Called "restorative justice," 121 00:07:42,033 --> 00:07:46,401 such efforts emphasize accountability and service 122 00:07:46,425 --> 00:07:48,005 rather than punishment. 123 00:07:49,275 --> 00:07:54,440 Many schools in the United States have turned to use restorative justice methods 124 00:07:54,464 --> 00:07:57,628 to resolve conflicts and to prevent them, 125 00:07:57,652 --> 00:08:00,457 and to disrupt the school-to-prison pipeline. 126 00:08:01,467 --> 00:08:05,403 Some American high schools have replaced automatic suspensions 127 00:08:05,427 --> 00:08:08,999 with opportunities for victims to narrate their experiences 128 00:08:09,023 --> 00:08:12,415 and for offenders to take responsibility for their actions. 129 00:08:12,795 --> 00:08:17,436 As they describe their experiences and feelings about a theft 130 00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:21,777 or hateful graffiti or a verbal or physical assault, 131 00:08:21,801 --> 00:08:25,462 the victims and offenders often express strong emotions. 132 00:08:26,009 --> 00:08:28,611 And other members of the community take turns 133 00:08:28,635 --> 00:08:31,413 describing the impact of the offense on them. 134 00:08:32,683 --> 00:08:38,807 The leader is often a student peer, who is trained to deescalate the conflict 135 00:08:38,831 --> 00:08:42,904 and orchestrate a conversation about what the offender can do 136 00:08:42,928 --> 00:08:44,691 that would help the victim. 137 00:08:44,715 --> 00:08:48,536 Together, they come to an agreement about how to move forward, 138 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:51,505 what the wrongdoer can do to repair the injury, 139 00:08:51,529 --> 00:08:55,547 and what all could do to better avoid future conflicts. 140 00:08:56,452 --> 00:08:59,819 Consider this example, recently in a publication. 141 00:09:00,359 --> 00:09:04,975 A young woman named Mercedes M. transferred, in California, 142 00:09:04,999 --> 00:09:06,768 from one high school to another 143 00:09:06,792 --> 00:09:10,292 after she was so repeatedly suspended in her old high school 144 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:11,839 for getting into fights. 145 00:09:12,345 --> 00:09:14,053 And here in her new high school, 146 00:09:14,928 --> 00:09:19,526 two other young women accused her of lying 147 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:22,583 and called her the b-word. 148 00:09:23,323 --> 00:09:27,047 A counselor came over and talked to her and earned enough trust 149 00:09:27,071 --> 00:09:32,179 that she acknowledged she had stolen the shoes of one of the other classmates. 150 00:09:33,104 --> 00:09:36,262 Turns out, the three of them had known each other for a long time, 151 00:09:36,286 --> 00:09:39,043 and they didn't know any other way to deal with each other 152 00:09:39,067 --> 00:09:40,344 other than to fight. 153 00:09:40,942 --> 00:09:45,484 The facilitator invited them to participate in a circle, 154 00:09:45,508 --> 00:09:47,806 a confidential conversation about what happened, 155 00:09:47,830 --> 00:09:49,117 and they agreed. 156 00:09:49,141 --> 00:09:53,982 And initially, each of them expressed a lot of emotion. 157 00:09:55,107 --> 00:09:57,633 And then Mercedes apologized. 158 00:09:58,549 --> 00:10:01,169 And she said she had stolen the shoes 159 00:10:01,193 --> 00:10:04,768 but she did so because she wanted to sell them 160 00:10:04,792 --> 00:10:09,139 and take the money to pay for a drug test 161 00:10:09,163 --> 00:10:12,370 so that her mother could show she was clean 162 00:10:12,394 --> 00:10:15,887 and try to regain custody of two younger children 163 00:10:15,911 --> 00:10:18,956 who were then in state protective care. 164 00:10:20,829 --> 00:10:23,228 The other girls heard this, 165 00:10:23,252 --> 00:10:24,640 saw Mercedes crying, 166 00:10:24,664 --> 00:10:25,852 and they hugged her. 167 00:10:26,927 --> 00:10:29,622 They did not ask her to return what she'd stolen, 168 00:10:29,646 --> 00:10:32,226 but they did say they wanted a restart. 169 00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:34,544 They wanted a reason they could trust her. 170 00:10:34,568 --> 00:10:36,804 Later, Mercedes explained 171 00:10:36,828 --> 00:10:39,167 that she was sure she would have been suspended 172 00:10:39,191 --> 00:10:40,797 if they hadn't had this process. 173 00:10:40,821 --> 00:10:44,559 And her high school has reduced suspensions by more than half 174 00:10:44,583 --> 00:10:47,654 through the use of this kind of restorative justice method. 175 00:10:48,941 --> 00:10:53,235 Restorative justice alternatives involve offenders and victims 176 00:10:53,259 --> 00:10:54,831 in communicating in ways 177 00:10:54,855 --> 00:10:58,139 that an adversarial and defensive process does not allow, 178 00:10:58,163 --> 00:11:00,983 and it's become the go-to method 179 00:11:01,007 --> 00:11:04,726 in places like the District of Columbia juvenile justice system 180 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:08,690 and innovations like Los Angeles's Teen Court. 181 00:11:09,834 --> 00:11:12,074 If tuned to fairness, 182 00:11:12,995 --> 00:11:16,809 forgiveness methods like bankruptcy would be available 183 00:11:16,833 --> 00:11:21,286 not only for the for-profit college that goes belly-up 184 00:11:21,310 --> 00:11:24,180 but also for the students stuck with the loans; 185 00:11:24,886 --> 00:11:27,710 pardons would not be given to campaign contributors; 186 00:11:27,734 --> 00:11:33,001 and black men would no longer have 20 percent longer criminal sentences 187 00:11:33,025 --> 00:11:34,255 than do white men, 188 00:11:34,279 --> 00:11:37,345 due to how judges exercise discretion. 189 00:11:38,452 --> 00:11:43,514 Forgiveness across the board is one way to avoid such biases. 190 00:11:44,035 --> 00:11:48,372 Sometimes, a society just needs a reset 191 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:50,593 when it comes to punishment and debt. 192 00:11:51,384 --> 00:11:56,319 The Bible calls for periodic forgiveness of debts 193 00:11:56,343 --> 00:11:58,624 and freeing prisoners, 194 00:11:58,648 --> 00:12:02,064 and it recently helped to inspire a global movement. 195 00:12:02,923 --> 00:12:07,138 Jubilee 2000 joined Pope John Paul II 196 00:12:07,162 --> 00:12:09,838 and rock star Bono and over 60 nations 197 00:12:09,862 --> 00:12:14,731 in an effort to seek the cancellation and succeed in canceling 198 00:12:14,755 --> 00:12:17,034 the debt of developing countries, 199 00:12:17,058 --> 00:12:20,088 amounting to over 100 billion dollars 200 00:12:20,112 --> 00:12:21,724 of debt canceled, 201 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:27,356 resulting in measurable reduction in poverty. 202 00:12:28,747 --> 00:12:32,008 In a similar spirit, there are people who are copying the techniques 203 00:12:32,032 --> 00:12:33,522 of commercial debt collectors 204 00:12:33,546 --> 00:12:36,522 who purchase debt for pennies on the dollar 205 00:12:36,546 --> 00:12:38,611 and then seek to enforce it. 206 00:12:39,666 --> 00:12:43,492 Late-night television host John Oliver partnered with a nonprofit group 207 00:12:43,516 --> 00:12:46,487 called RIP Medical Debt, 208 00:12:47,769 --> 00:12:50,287 and for only 60,000 dollars, 209 00:12:50,311 --> 00:12:55,148 they purchased 15 million dollars' worth of medical debt, 210 00:12:55,172 --> 00:12:56,933 and then they forgave it. 211 00:12:58,115 --> 00:13:02,114 (Applause) 212 00:13:04,469 --> 00:13:10,972 That allowed nearly 9,000 people to have a restart in their lives. 213 00:13:10,996 --> 00:13:15,515 This kind of precedent should trigger and encourage more such actions. 214 00:13:15,539 --> 00:13:17,513 It's time for a reset, 215 00:13:17,537 --> 00:13:19,422 given mass incarceration, 216 00:13:19,446 --> 00:13:21,667 medical and consumer debt 217 00:13:21,691 --> 00:13:24,435 and given indigent criminal defendants 218 00:13:24,459 --> 00:13:26,929 who are charged and put in debt 219 00:13:26,953 --> 00:13:30,524 because they're expected to pay for their own probation officers 220 00:13:30,548 --> 00:13:32,722 and their own electronic monitors. 221 00:13:34,335 --> 00:13:36,568 Forgiving violations of law 222 00:13:36,592 --> 00:13:38,986 or promises to pay back loans 223 00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:40,738 does pose risks. 224 00:13:41,216 --> 00:13:43,799 Forgiveness may encourage more violations. 225 00:13:43,823 --> 00:13:45,987 Economists even have a name for it. 226 00:13:46,011 --> 00:13:48,340 They call it "moral hazard." 227 00:13:49,507 --> 00:13:53,191 Should there be amnesty for immigration violations? 228 00:13:53,215 --> 00:13:56,674 Should a president offer pardons to protect himself 229 00:13:56,698 --> 00:13:58,580 or to induce lawbreaking? 230 00:13:59,038 --> 00:14:01,860 These are tough questions for our time. 231 00:14:02,934 --> 00:14:06,888 But escalating resentments hold their own dangers. 232 00:14:06,912 --> 00:14:10,094 So does attributing blame to individuals 233 00:14:10,118 --> 00:14:13,648 for circumstances largely outside their own control. 234 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:21,324 To ask how law may forgive is not to deny the fact of wrongdoing. 235 00:14:21,348 --> 00:14:24,547 Rather, it's to widen the lens, 236 00:14:24,571 --> 00:14:27,962 to enable glimpses of the larger patterns 237 00:14:27,986 --> 00:14:31,878 and to enable new choices that can go forward 238 00:14:31,902 --> 00:14:34,433 if we can wipe the slate clean. 239 00:14:34,944 --> 00:14:36,196 Thank you. 240 00:14:36,685 --> 00:14:40,337 (Applause)