[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.81,0:00:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Edward Said on Orientalism
Dialogue: 0,0:01:19.13,0:01:21.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When future scholars take a look back at the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.88,0:01:24.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,intellectual history of the last quarter of the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.68,0:01:27.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the work of Professor Edward Said of Columbia University
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.72,0:01:31.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will be identified as very important and intellectual.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.15,0:01:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In particular, Said's 1978 book, Orientalism,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.04,0:01:38.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will be regarded as profoundly significant.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.08,0:01:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Orientalism revolutionized the study of the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:41.46,0:01:44.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Middle East and helped to create and shape entire
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.02,0:01:46.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,new fields of study, such as post-colonial theory,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.59,0:01:51.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well as influencing disciplines as diverse as English, history,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.32,0:01:55.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anthropology, political science, and cultural studies.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:55.06,0:01:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The book has now been translated into 26 languages
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.34,0:02:02.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and is required reading at many universities and colleges.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.60,0:02:05.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is also one of the most controversial
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.46,0:02:07.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scholarly books of the last 30 years,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:07.62,0:02:09.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sparking intense debate and disagreement.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.61,0:02:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Orientalism tries to answer the question of why,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:13.78,0:02:15.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we think of the Middle East, for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.62,0:02:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have a preconceived notion of what kind of people live there,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.34,0:02:20.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what they believe, how they act,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.83,0:02:25.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though we may never have been there or indeed even met anyone from there.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.10,0:02:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,\NMore generally, orientalism asks, how do we come to understand people,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.38,0:02:34.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strangers, who look different to us by virtue of the color of their skin?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.57,0:02:38.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The central argument of orientalism is that the
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.41,0:02:41.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way we acquire this knowledge is not innocent or objective,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.39,0:02:45.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the end result of a process that reflects certain interests.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.77,0:02:49.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is, it is highly motivated.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:49.09,0:02:52.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Specifically, Said argues that the way the west --
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.22,0:02:56.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Europe and the US -- looks at the countries and peoples of the Middle East -
Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.13,0:02:59.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is through a lens that distorts the actual reality
Dialogue: 0,0:02:59.55,0:03:01.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of those places and those people.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:01.90,0:03:04.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He calls this lens through which we view that part of the world,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.92,0:03:08.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,orientalism: a framework that we use to understand the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:08.95,0:03:11.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfamiliar and the strange,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.06,0:03:14.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make the peoples of the Middle East appear different and threatening.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.41,0:03:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Professor Said's contribution to how we understand
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.15,0:03:21.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this general process of what we could call stereotyping,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.54,0:03:23.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has been immense.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.50,0:03:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The aim of this program is to explore these issues
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.44,0:03:29.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through an interview with him.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.01,0:03:34.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He starts by discussing the context within which he conceived orientalism.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.11,0:03:39.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Edward Said: Well, my interest in orientalism began for two reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:39.87,0:03:42.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One was an immediate thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.23,0:03:46.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is to say, the Arab-Israeli war of 1973,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.74,0:03:51.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which had been preceded by a lot of images and discussions
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.21,0:03:53.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the media and the popular press.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.35,0:03:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, about how the Arabs are cowardly,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.12,0:03:56.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they don't know how to fight,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.47,0:03:59.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they're always gonna be beaten because they're not modern.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.75,0:04:02.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then everybody was very surprised when the Egyptian army
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.81,0:04:07.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crossed the canal in early October 1973 and demonstrated that,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.13,0:04:09.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, like anybody else, they could fight.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:09.41,0:04:14.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that was one immediate impulse.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.40,0:04:18.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the second one, which has a much longer history in my own life,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.65,0:04:23.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was the constant sort of disparity I felt between what my experience
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.21,0:04:26.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of being an Arab was and the representation of that,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.76,0:04:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that one saw in art -- I mean, I'm talking about very great art --
Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.20,0:04:36.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like de la Croix, and Angh Jerome, and people like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.100,0:04:41.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Novelists who wrote about the Orient, like Disraeli or Flaubert.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.55,0:04:44.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know, the fact that those representations of the
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.85,0:04:49.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Orient had very little to do with what I knew about my own background in life.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.75,0:04:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I decided to write the history of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.00,0:05:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music]
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.88,0:05:08.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If somebody, let's say, in the 1850s or 60s,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.79,0:05:16.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Paris or London, wished to talk about or read about India,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.95,0:05:21.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or Egypt or Syria, there would be very little chance
Dialogue: 0,0:05:21.32,0:05:30.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for that person to simply address the subject as we like to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.36,0:05:33.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think in a kind of free and creative way.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.75,0:05:36.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A great deal of writing had gone before.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.09,0:05:40.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this writing was an organized form of writing,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.70,0:05:42.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like an organized science,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:42.87,0:05:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of what I have called orientalism and it seemed to me that there was
Dialogue: 0,0:05:47.60,0:05:51.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a kind of repertory of images that kept coming up,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.05,0:05:57.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, the sensual woman, who's there to be sort of used by the man.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.02,0:06:00.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The East as a kind of mysterious place,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.43,0:06:02.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,full of secrets and monsters, you know;
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.99,0:06:05.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the marvels of the East was a phrase that was used.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.25,0:06:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the more I looked,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.59,0:06:09.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the more I saw that this was really quite consistent with itself --
Dialogue: 0,0:06:09.51,0:06:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, it had very little to do with people that had actually been there.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:13.56,0:06:15.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And even if they had been there,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.23,0:06:17.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there wasn't much modification; in other words,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.05,0:06:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you didn't get what you could call realistic representations of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.92,0:06:22.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Orient either in literature or in painting or
Dialogue: 0,0:06:22.33,0:06:25.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in music or any of the arts.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:25.00,0:06:30.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this extended even further into descriptions of the Arabs by experts.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.17,0:06:33.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, people who had studied them.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.15,0:06:35.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I noticed that even in the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:35.82,0:06:39.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the same images that you found in the 19th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.61,0:06:43.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,amongst scholars like Edward William Lane,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.52,0:06:47.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who wrote his book on the modern Egyptians in the early 1830s.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.18,0:06:50.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then you read somebody in the 1920s.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.44,0:06:52.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they're more or less saying the same thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.21,0:06:55.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One great example that I always give is of the wonderful French poet,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.95,0:07:01.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Gerard de Nerval, who went on a voyage to the Orient, as he called it.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.37,0:07:03.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was reading this book of his travels in Syria and
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.59,0:07:05.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was something very familiar about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.57,0:07:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, it sounded like something else that I had read.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.18,0:07:10.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then I realized that what he was doing almost unconsciously was
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.82,0:07:13.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quoting Lane on the Egyptians,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.10,0:07:15.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the theory that the orientals are all the same no matter
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.31,0:07:19.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you find 'em, whether it's in India or Syria or in Egypt;
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.07,0:07:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's basically the same essence.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.06,0:07:24.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there developed a kind of image of the timeless Orient,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.10,0:07:27.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as if the orient, unlike the west, doesn't develop; it stays the same.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.39,0:07:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's one of the problems with orientalism,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.60,0:07:34.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is it creates an image outside of history,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.01,0:07:38.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of something that is placid and still and eternal.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:38.24,0:07:42.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is simply contradicted by the fact of history.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.08,0:07:45.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's it in one sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.44,0:07:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a creation of, you might say, an ideal other for Europe.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.72,0:08:01.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music]
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.20,0:08:05.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Professor Said's analysis of orientalism isn't just
Dialogue: 0,0:08:05.65,0:08:07.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a description of its content,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:07.93,0:08:11.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but a sustained argument for why it looks the way it does.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.46,0:08:13.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's an examination of a quite concrete,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.49,0:08:17.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,historical and institutional context that creates it.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:17.00,0:08:21.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Specifically, Said locates the construction of orientalism within
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.74,0:08:25.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the history of imperial conquest.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:25.43,0:08:27.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As empires spread across the globe,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.33,0:08:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,historically the British and the French have been the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:30.20,0:08:32.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most important in terms of the East.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:32.32,0:08:34.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They conquer not only militarily,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:34.11,0:08:36.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also what we could call ideologically.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.86,0:08:39.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The question for these empires is,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:39.87,0:08:42.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how do we understand the natives that we are encountering
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.53,0:08:45.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we can conquer and subdue them easier.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.43,0:08:48.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This process of using large,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.08,0:08:51.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,abstract categories to explain people who are different,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:51.02,0:08:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whose skin is a different color, has been going on for a long time,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:54.54,0:08:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as far back as there has been contact between different cultures and peoples.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.11,0:09:01.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But orientalism makes this general process more formal,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.63,0:09:05.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that it presents itself as objective knowledge.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.28,0:09:08.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said identifies Napoleon's conquest of Egypt in 1798
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.82,0:09:14.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as marking a new kind of imperial and colonial conquest that
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.01,0:09:17.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inaugurates the project of orientalism.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.26,0:09:20.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: There was a kind of break that occurred after Napoleon
Dialogue: 0,0:09:20.57,0:09:22.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came to Egypt in 1798.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.75,0:09:26.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's the first really important imperial,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.11,0:09:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,modern imperial expedition.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.51,0:09:32.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So he invades the place.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.06,0:09:35.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But he doesn't invade it the way the Spaniards invaded the New World.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:35.58,0:09:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Looking for loot.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.24,0:09:43.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He comes instead with an enormous army of soldiers but also scientists.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:43.01,0:09:49.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Botanists, architects, philologists, biologists, historians,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.40,0:09:55.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whose job it was to record Egypt in every conceivable way and
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.59,0:09:59.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,produce a kind of scientific survey of Egypt
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.41,0:10:02.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was designed not for the Egyptian, but for the European.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.74,0:10:05.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course what strikes you first of all,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.25,0:10:07.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the volumes they produced is their enormous size;
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.90,0:10:10.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're a meter square.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.00,0:10:13.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And all across them is written the power and
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.55,0:10:17.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prestige of a modern European country that can do to the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:17.37,0:10:20.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Egyptians what the Egyptians cannot do to the French.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.65,0:10:23.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is no comparable Egyptian survey of France.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.92,0:10:27.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To produce knowledge you have to have the power to be
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.62,0:10:33.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there and to see in expert ways things that the natives themselves can't see.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.60,0:10:45.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music.]
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.21,0:10:50.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The differences between different kinds of orientalisms are,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.62,0:10:55.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in effect, the differences between experiences of what is called the Orient.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.61,0:10:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, the difference between Britain and France on the one hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.04,0:11:01.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the United States on the other,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.04,0:11:03.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that Britain and France had colonies in the Orient;
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.83,0:11:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean they had a longstanding relationship.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.94,0:11:12.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And imperial row in a place like India.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.96,0:11:14.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there's a kind of a --
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.96,0:11:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a kind of archive of actual experiences of being in India,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.64,0:11:25.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of ruling a country for several hundred years, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.31,0:11:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the same with the French in North Africa,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.99,0:11:30.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say Algeria, or Indo China.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.95,0:11:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Direct colonial experience.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:33.64,0:11:39.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the case of the Americans, the experience is much less direct.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.38,0:11:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There has never been an American occupation of the Near East.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.40,0:11:46.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I would say the difference between the British and
Dialogue: 0,0:11:46.18,0:11:47.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,French orientalism on the one hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.75,0:11:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the American experience in the orient on the other,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:49.28,0:11:54.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that the American one is much more, uh, indirect.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.73,0:11:58.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's much more based on abstractions.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.20,0:12:00.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The second big thing, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:00.78,0:12:03.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the difference in the American experience from the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.64,0:12:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,British and the French, of orientalism,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:05.88,0:12:13.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that American orientalism is very politicized by the presence of Israel,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.64,0:12:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for which America is the main ally.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.96,0:12:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,President Clinton and I are proud, as are all Americans,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.01,0:12:25.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the United States was the first nation to recognize the state of Israel.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.24,0:12:29.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Eleven minutes after you proclaimed your independence.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.80,0:12:33.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: And what you have in effect is the creation of a Jewish state
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.87,0:12:38.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the middle of the Islamic oriental world in the sense that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.63,0:12:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's a Jewish state and a western state,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.58,0:12:45.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,self-declared, there is a greater coincidence between
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.80,0:12:50.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,American interests there, than there is between American interests,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:50.03,0:12:52.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.68,0:12:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which are important because of oil.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:54.85,0:12:59.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the presence of this other factor, which is very anti-Islamic,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.38,0:13:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where Israel regards the whole Arab world as its enemy is imported into --
Dialogue: 0,0:13:03.43,0:13:07.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into American orientalism.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.28,0:13:10.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean the idea for example that Hamas terrorists on the West Bank
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.18,0:13:13.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are just interested in killing Jewish children,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.45,0:13:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is what you derive from looking at this stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.96,0:13:18.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And very little attention is paid to the fact that the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.65,0:13:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Israeli occupation of the West Bank in Gaza has been going on for --
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.73,0:13:24.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,30 - years - it's the longest military occupation in this century.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.60,0:13:27.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so you get the impression that the only problem is that,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:27.52,0:13:32.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, Israeli security is threatened by Hamas and suicide bombers and
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.27,0:13:34.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the rest of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:34.03,0:13:35.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nothing is said about the hundreds of thousands,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:35.90,0:13:38.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,millions of palestianians who are dispossessed and
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.17,0:13:40.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,living miserable lives as a direct result of what Israel
Dialogue: 0,0:13:40.10,0:13:41.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has done and is doing.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.72,0:13:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there's a sense in which the Arab struggle for
Dialogue: 0,0:13:45.01,0:13:48.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national independence in the history of the Palestinians for national
Dialogue: 0,0:13:48.24,0:13:52.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,self-determination is looked at with great hostility as upsetting the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:52.19,0:13:54.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stabilities of the status quo.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.20,0:13:57.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that makes it virtually impossible.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:57.33,0:13:58.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a tragedy.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.44,0:14:02.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Virtually impossible for an American to see on television,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:02.34,0:14:06.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to read books, to see films about the Middle East,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.91,0:14:09.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are not colored politically by this conflict in
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.62,0:14:12.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which the Arabs almost always play the role of terrorists and
Dialogue: 0,0:14:12.93,0:14:16.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,violent people and irrational and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.84,0:14:31.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music.]
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.30,0:14:35.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beastie Boy: That's another thing that America really needs to think about,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.74,0:14:37.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is our racism.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:37.21,0:14:40.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Racism that comes from the United States towards Muslim people and
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.38,0:14:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,towards Arabic people and that's something that has to stop and
Dialogue: 0,0:14:42.98,0:14:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the United States has to start respecting people from the Middle East
Dialogue: 0,0:14:46.54,0:14:49.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to find a solution to the problem that's been
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.88,0:14:52.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,building up over many years.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.25,0:14:57.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I thank everyone for your patience in letting me speak my mind on that.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:57.35,0:15:01.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Speaker: Many people believe the way that Americans understand
Dialogue: 0,0:15:01.04,0:15:03.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Muslim world is very problematic.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.42,0:15:07.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Indeed, anti-Arab racism seems to be almost officially sanctioned.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:07.85,0:15:09.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can make generalized and racist statements about
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.90,0:15:13.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Arab peoples that would not be tolerated for any other group.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.84,0:15:17.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the heart of how this new American orientalism operates is a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.88,0:15:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,threatening and demonized figure of the Islamic terrorist.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.28,0:15:23.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is emphasized by journalists and Hollywood.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.98,0:15:28.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now Said recognizes that terrorism exists as a result of the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.52,0:15:31.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,violent political situation in the Middle East.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.38,0:15:34.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But he argues that there's a lot more going on there that is
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.06,0:15:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,misunderstood or not seen by the peoples of the west.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:37.24,0:15:42.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The result of the media's focus on one negative aspect alone means
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.26,0:15:45.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that all the peoples of the Islamic world come to be understood in the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.40,0:15:48.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,same negative and paranoid way.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.21,0:15:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is, as a threat.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.06,0:15:52.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that when we think of people who look like that and
Dialogue: 0,0:15:52.14,0:15:53.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have come from that part of the world,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.55,0:15:58.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we think, fanatic, extreme, violent.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:58.59,0:16:02.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said argues that understanding a vast and
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.14,0:16:04.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,complex region like the Middle East in this narrow way
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.46,0:16:07.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,takes away from the humanity and diversity of millions of
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.78,0:16:11.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ordinary people living decent and humane lives there.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.34,0:16:15.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: We asked, would he plant a bomb to blow up the Americans if the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.34,0:16:19.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Islamic underground asked him to, the answer was yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.87,0:16:23.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,After I wrote Orientalism and a book called the Question of Palestine
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.80,0:16:26.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the early 80s. In the late 70s, rather.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.17,0:16:27.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in the beginning of the 80s,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.88,0:16:30.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wrote a third book which is called Covering Islam and I thought
Dialogue: 0,0:16:30.45,0:16:32.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of them as a kind of trilogy.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:32.46,0:16:37.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Covering Islam was an account of the coverage of Islam
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.60,0:16:40.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the popular media immediately occasioned by the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.20,0:16:44.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Iranian Revolution which described itself
Dialogue: 0,0:16:44.34,0:16:47.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you recall as an Islamic revolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:47.46,0:16:56.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know, what I discovered was a huge arsenal of images
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.07,0:16:58.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,employed by the media.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:58.36,0:17:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Large masses of people waving their fists, black banners,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:03.84,0:17:06.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, the stern-faced Khomeini,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.80,0:17:10.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of them giving an impression of the utmost negative,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.00,0:17:12.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of evil emanation.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:12.74,0:17:16.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the impression you got of Islam was that it was a frightening,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.86,0:17:23.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,uh, mysterious -- above all, threatening,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:23.49,0:17:26.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as if the main business of Muslims was to threaten and
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.71,0:17:29.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,try to kill Americans.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:29.36,0:17:32.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As recently as last year, in 1996, that is to say,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.97,0:17:36.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost 16 or 17 years after I wrote Covering Islam,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.66,0:17:40.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I did an update of the book and I wrote a new introduction.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.32,0:17:46.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I found that quite to my horror and surprise,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.53,0:17:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that during those 16 and 17 years with the large number of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.96,0:17:52.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,events in the Islamic world taking place,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.96,0:17:55.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which you would think would allow for more familiarity,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.66,0:17:59.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a more refined sense of what was taking place on, let's say,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.86,0:18:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as reflected in television and print journalism, in fact, was the opposite.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.44,0:18:09.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the situation got worse.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:09.21,0:18:11.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that what you had instead now,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.93,0:18:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a much more threatening picture of Islam,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.76,0:18:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,represented for example by television and film --
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.80,0:18:22.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,called Jihad in America, based on the bombing of the World Trade Center.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.27,0:18:26.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: I reported on international terrorism for the past ten years and
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.52,0:18:28.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since the World Trade Center bombing,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.90,0:18:31.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've been investigating the networks of Islamic extremists
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.75,0:18:34.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,committed to Jihad in America.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:34.13,0:18:37.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For these militants, Jihad is a holy war,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:37.62,0:18:40.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an armed struggle to defeat nonbelievers or
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.42,0:18:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,infidels and their ultimate goal is to establish an Islamic empire.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.04,0:18:48.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this gathering did not take place in the Middle East.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:48.94,0:18:51.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It happened in the heartland of America: Kansas City, Missouri.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.97,0:18:55.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Combatting these groups within the boundaries of the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.90,0:18:59.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Constitution will be the greatest challenge to law enforcement
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.03,0:19:02.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since the war on organized crime.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.14,0:19:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: But never the same generalizations were made,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.64,0:19:08.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, about the Oklahoma City bombing,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.11,0:19:09.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this was a Christian fundamentalist, etc., etc.,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.98,0:19:13.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the Islamic Jihad had come to America,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:13.77,0:19:16.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you had these scenes of the most irresponsible journalism,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.82,0:19:20.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you would see people talking in Arabic and a voiceover saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.17,0:19:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"and they are discussing the destruction of America.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:22.40,0:19:25.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whereas if you picked up a little of what was being said,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.16,0:19:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you knew the language, it had nothing to do with that.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:27.57,0:19:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that Islam and the teachings of Islam,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:30.38,0:19:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,became synonymous with terror and the demonization of Islam,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:33.64,0:19:37.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allowed for very little distinction between piety,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:37.30,0:19:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, and violence.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.96,0:19:43.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The so-called independent media in a liberal society like this --
Dialogue: 0,0:19:43.98,0:19:48.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in effect are so lazy and are controlled by interests that are
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.13,0:19:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,commercial and political at the same time,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:51.46,0:19:53.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is no investigative reporting.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:53.90,0:19:57.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's just basically repeating the line of the government.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:57.22,0:20:00.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ted Koppel: Only eight days ago I concluded a broadcast on the
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.13,0:20:02.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,World Trade Center bombing by telling you what
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.30,0:20:05.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,senior US law enforcement officials were telling us,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.06,0:20:08.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the threat of Muslim extremists operating within
Dialogue: 0,0:20:08.14,0:20:12.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the United States is an ongoing danger,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:12.01,0:20:14.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something we'll have to live with from now on.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:14.24,0:20:17.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: And repeating the lies of the people who have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.43,0:20:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the most influence for whom Islam is a useful,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.16,0:20:25.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,foreign, demon, to turn attention away from the inequities and
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.96,0:20:29.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems in our own society.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:29.22,0:20:35.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So as a result, the human side of the Islamic and especially Arabic world,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.90,0:20:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are rarely to be found, and the net result is this vacancy,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.76,0:20:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the one hand, and these easy,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.13,0:20:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost automatic images of terror and violence.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.24,0:20:54.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a handy set of images and cliches.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.72,0:20:58.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, not just from the newspapers and television, but from movies.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.38,0:21:01.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music]
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.56,0:21:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh I come from a land, from a far away place,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.70,0:21:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the caravan camels roam
Dialogue: 0,0:21:08.18,0:21:11.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where it's flat and immense and the heat is intense
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.100,0:21:15.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's barbaric, but hey, it's home
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.89,0:21:17.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When the wind's from the east,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.77,0:21:22.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the sun's from the west and the sand in the glass is right;
Dialogue: 0,0:21:22.18,0:21:31.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come on down, stop on by, hop a carpet and fly to another Arabian night.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.14,0:21:36.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: I mean, I myself, growing up in the Middle East in Palestine and Cairo,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.80,0:21:40.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,used to delight in films on the Arabian Nights, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.40,0:21:46.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,done by Hollywood producers, with John Hall and Maria Montez and Sabu.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:46.12,0:21:49.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean they were talking about a part of the world that I lived in but
Dialogue: 0,0:21:49.94,0:21:54.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it had this kind of exotic magical quality which was what
Dialogue: 0,0:21:54.59,0:21:56.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we call today Hollywood.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:56.29,0:21:59.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there was that whole reportory of the Sheiks and the desert and
Dialogue: 0,0:21:59.66,0:22:03.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the galloping around and the cimitars and the dancing girls and all that.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:03.05,0:22:05.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's really the material.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.49,0:22:08.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's the situation in the popular media is basically that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.96,0:22:10.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Muslims are really two things.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.69,0:22:13.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One -- they are villains. They are villains and fanatics.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:13.97,0:22:18.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will dispatch the American people to the hell they deserve.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.54,0:22:22.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Gunfire)
Dialogue: 0,0:22:22.54,0:22:23.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the name of Allah!
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.86,0:22:28.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And B, many films end up with huge numbers of bodies, Muslim bodies,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:28.74,0:22:34.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strewn all over the place, the result of Arnold Schwarzenegger or Demi Moore,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.98,0:22:37.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chuck Norris; lots of films about guerrillas going in to
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.91,0:22:40.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kill Muslim terrorists.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.98,0:22:44.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the idea of Muslim is something to be stamped out.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:44.84,0:23:03.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Fighting and swordfighting sounds with music)
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.23,0:23:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: The whole history of these whole orientalist representations
Dialogue: 0,0:23:06.16,0:23:11.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which portray the Muslim and the oriental as in effect a lesser breed;
Dialogue: 0,0:23:11.57,0:23:15.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in other words, the only thing they understand is the language of force.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:15.46,0:23:19.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is the principle here, that unless you give them a bloody nose,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:19.15,0:23:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they won't understand. We can't talk reason with them.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.19,0:23:30.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Gunshots and screaming)
Dialogue: 0,0:23:30.01,0:23:32.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: Is the Arab world full of tough terrorists?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.41,0:23:35.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I mean, all you have to do is sort of break down the question into -
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.68,0:23:42.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into common sense and say, uh, there are terrorists, as there are everywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:42.71,0:23:46.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you know, there's a lot more going on there.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.55,0:23:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're talking about 250, 300 million people.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.92,0:23:53.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the great problems of orientalism to begin with,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.32,0:23:55.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is these vast generalizations about Islam and the nature of Islam.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:55.97,0:24:01.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's very little in common that you can talk about as Islam,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:01.71,0:24:05.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, between Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.06,0:24:07.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean they're both Muslim countries but you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:07.99,0:24:12.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the difference is in history and language and traditions and so on --
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.84,0:24:17.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's so vast, that the word Islam has, at best, a tenuous meaning.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.21,0:24:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The same is true within the Arab world.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:20.23,0:24:22.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, Morocco is very different from Saudi Arabia.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:22.74,0:24:25.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Algeria is very different from Egypt.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.45,0:24:26.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I would argue and in fact,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:26.99,0:24:31.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have argued that the predominant mood of the Arab world is very secular.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.69,0:24:35.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, it's easy to attract attention and
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.53,0:24:37.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly the media's attention for some of the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:37.52,0:24:39.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political reasons that are obvious.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:39.40,0:24:41.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean to discredit the Arabs to make them seem like a threat to the west.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.81,0:24:47.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To keep the idea around at the end of the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.45,0:24:50.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cold War that there are foreign devils.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:50.90,0:24:53.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words, what are we doing with this gigantic military?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.90,0:24:57.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This huge military budget that is twice as much as the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.45,0:25:00.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,entire world's military budget combined?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:00.99,0:25:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you have to have threat.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.24,0:25:07.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the result is, it's very hard to find works
Dialogue: 0,0:25:07.06,0:25:09.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are sympathetic to the Arabs and Islam.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.62,0:25:11.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Islam is seen as the enemy of Christianity and
Dialogue: 0,0:25:11.50,0:25:13.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the United States sees itself as a Christian or
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.27,0:25:16.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Judeo-Christian country in affiliation with Israel,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.22,0:25:18.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that Islam is the great enemy.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.14,0:25:19.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The competitor.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:19.66,0:25:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a history of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:21.06,0:25:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I give the example of Dodi Fayed,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.20,0:25:28.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the erstwhile suitor of Princess Diana.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:28.08,0:25:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, a few days before he died,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:29.42,0:25:34.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I read through the English press, and it was full of racist cliches,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.70,0:25:37.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of orientalist discourse.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.13,0:25:40.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean that this is -- the Sunday Times,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:40.52,0:25:42.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the leading newspapers in England,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.63,0:25:45.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had a headline to a 15,000 word story, entitled,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:45.53,0:25:48.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"A Match Made in Mecca."
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.18,0:25:51.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the idea of Muslim conspiracy is trying to infect,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.64,0:25:56.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, taking over this white woman by these dark people with Mohammed,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:56.55,0:26:00.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the prophet Mohammed, who is a historical person in the 7th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:00.83,0:26:03.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somehow stage-managing the whole thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.11,0:26:05.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's the power of the discourse. You see.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.04,0:26:09.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you are thinking about people and Islam and about that part of the world,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.09,0:26:11.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those are the words you constantly have to use.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:11.91,0:26:15.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Speaker: And you won't get hurt! I give you my word!
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.50,0:26:19.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: No way you wacko.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:20.76,0:26:23.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: The discourse is a regulated system of
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.86,0:26:27.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,producing knowledge within certain constraints whereby
Dialogue: 0,0:26:27.40,0:26:29.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certain rules have to be observed.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.44,0:26:31.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now gay Libya. Exports.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:31.78,0:26:33.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes sir you American pig.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.45,0:26:35.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Laughs.] Nice touch.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.27,0:26:39.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: To think past it, to go beyond it, not to use it,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:39.05,0:26:41.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is virtually impossible because there's no knowledge
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.07,0:26:43.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that isn't codified in this way about that part of the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.97,0:26:46.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,May I help you?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:46.31,0:26:53.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Unintelligible)
Dialogue: 0,0:26:53.21,0:26:54.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Listen to --
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.68,0:26:55.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jesus.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:55.64,0:26:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Unintelligible)
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.43,0:27:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Loud noises and explosions)
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.00,0:27:09.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: And there's a certain sense in which in not really
Dialogue: 0,0:27:09.06,0:27:13.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mounting a serious critique of it,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.15,0:27:16.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Arabs have participated and continued to allow themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:27:16.73,0:27:19.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be represented as orientals in this orientalist way.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.67,0:27:26.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is no, for example, information policy of the 20 Arab countries,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.08,0:27:30.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,22 Arab countries, to try to give a different picture
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.42,0:27:33.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of what their worlds are like.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.16,0:27:35.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because most of them are dictatorships.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:35.81,0:27:37.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of them are dictatorships, without democracy,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:37.91,0:27:40.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are in desperate need of US patronage,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:40.50,0:27:43.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government patronage, to support them.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:43.96,0:27:46.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they are not about to criticize the United States.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:46.47,0:27:50.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not about to engage in a real dialogue.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:50.10,0:27:53.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in that respect, I think the Arabs keep themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.64,0:28:01.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collectively in a way that is subordinate and inferior to the west.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.47,0:28:04.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in fact, fulfills the kinds of representations that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:04.88,0:28:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most westerners have on their minds about the Arabs.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.18,0:28:22.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music]
Dialogue: 0,0:28:22.86,0:28:24.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The attacks came without warning.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.50,0:28:27.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Connie Chung: And according to a US government source,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.23,0:28:31.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,told CBS News, that it has Middle East terrorism written all over it.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.38,0:28:34.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: The attack in Oklahoma City appears to have a familiar mark.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:34.86,0:28:37.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Speaker: this was done with the attempt to inflict
Dialogue: 0,0:28:37.05,0:28:38.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as many casualties as possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.48,0:28:40.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is a Middle Eastern trait.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:40.66,0:28:42.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: The fact that it was such a powerful bomb in
Dialogue: 0,0:28:42.99,0:28:46.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oklahoma City immediately drew investigators to consider
Dialogue: 0,0:28:46.00,0:28:49.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deadly parallels that all have roots in the Middle East.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:49.23,0:28:52.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ABC News has learned that the FBI has asked
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.12,0:28:56.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the US military to provide up to ten Arabic speakers to
Dialogue: 0,0:28:56.74,0:28:58.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,help in the investigation.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:58.00,0:29:01.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: Well, one of the interesting things about --
Dialogue: 0,0:29:01.30,0:29:05.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the persistence of orientalism-- I mean,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:05.87,0:29:09.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when you think about it, almost astonishing persistence of it,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.39,0:29:13.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was the Oklahoma City bombing in April of 1995.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.21,0:29:16.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can give you a personal example.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:16.09,0:29:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was in Canada giving some lectures at the
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.82,0:29:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual time of the bombing and maybe half an hour after
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.52,0:29:29.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the event had occurred in the afternoon,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:29.34,0:29:32.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my office was inundated with phone calls from the media.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.13,0:29:36.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I rang my office from Canada,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.92,0:29:39.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I frequently do to find out, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:39.49,0:29:43.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if there was any message for me that needed attention and so on,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.45,0:29:45.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she said, every --
Dialogue: 0,0:29:45.37,0:29:48.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,25 calls had come in from the major networks,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.14,0:29:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the cable channels,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.92,0:29:53.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the major newspapers and news magazines and so forth,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:53.09,0:29:54.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of them wanting to talk to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:54.99,0:29:56.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I said what about?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.09,0:29:57.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,About this event in Oklahoma City.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:57.40,0:29:59.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I said, but what does that have to do with anything.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:59.49,0:30:03.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, apparently somebody had volunteered,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.51,0:30:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of these instant commentators, that --
Dialogue: 0,0:30:06.12,0:30:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the notion that this seemed like a
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.02,0:30:10.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Middle East-style bombing and that there were a couple of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:10.88,0:30:15.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,swarthy people around right after the bombing or seen after the bombing.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:15.14,0:30:17.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: Within hours of the explosion,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:17.03,0:30:20.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,local police and the FBI had issued the all points bulletin
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.78,0:30:23.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking for three men believed to be of Middle Eastern origin
Dialogue: 0,0:30:23.85,0:30:27.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reporter: And sources tell CBS News that unofficially the FBI
Dialogue: 0,0:30:27.83,0:30:30.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is treating this as a Middle Eastern related incident.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:30.62,0:30:33.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steve Emerson: Oklahoma City, I can tell you,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:33.74,0:30:35.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is probably considered one of the largest centers of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.46,0:30:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:38.06,0:30:42.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: And so this got them to think that they should talk to me,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:42.46,0:30:43.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not because I had anything to do with it,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:43.87,0:30:45.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but because by virtue of being from the Middle East,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:45.69,0:30:48.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would have an inside -- insight into this.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:48.92,0:30:53.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, and of course the proposition is so preposterous and so racist.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:53.49,0:30:54.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just if you're from the area,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:54.90,0:30:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you would understand who and why this is being done.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:58.40,0:31:00.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Never thinking for a moment that it was a
Dialogue: 0,0:31:00.04,0:31:04.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,local homegrown boy called McVeigh who was
Dialogue: 0,0:31:04.18,0:31:06.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,totally American in his outlook and was doing it
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.33,0:31:09.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out of the best principles of American extermination
Dialogue: 0,0:31:09.70,0:31:12.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Ahab-like anger, you know, at the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:12.79,0:31:24.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music.]
Dialogue: 0,0:31:24.55,0:31:27.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Speaker: Professor Said is not only a true theorist.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:27.15,0:31:29.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He is also a very prominent and active
Dialogue: 0,0:31:29.86,0:31:32.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,representative of the Palestinian people.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:32.63,0:31:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said grew up in what was then called Palestine
Dialogue: 0,0:31:35.60,0:31:38.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and is now called Israel and the occupied territories.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.34,0:31:41.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When the state of Israel was founded in 1948,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:41.41,0:31:43.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like millions of other Palestinians,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.93,0:31:47.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said and his family were made homeless as well as stateless.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:47.04,0:31:52.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These exiled Palestinians now mostly lived either
Dialogue: 0,0:31:52.45,0:31:54.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the territories under control of Israel or
Dialogue: 0,0:31:54.28,0:31:57.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in refugee camps in the surrounding countries.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:57.91,0:32:00.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the things that drives Said is the quest for
Dialogue: 0,0:32:00.26,0:32:04.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,justice and a homeland for the Palestinian people.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:04.28,0:32:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a close connection between Said's intellectual
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.59,0:32:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work and his political activism.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:09.04,0:32:10.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As he himself remarks,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:10.94,0:32:13.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he wrote three books that he thinks of as a
Dialogue: 0,0:32:13.17,0:32:17.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trilogy and that in his mind are closely connected together --
Dialogue: 0,0:32:17.28,0:32:22.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Orientalism, Covering Islam, and the Question of Palestine.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:22.70,0:32:24.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He believes that finding a peaceful,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:24.63,0:32:27.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,humane and just solution to the conflict in the Middle East,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:27.52,0:32:31.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is, finding an answer to the question of Palestine,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:31.53,0:32:34.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will require overcoming the racist legacy of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.15,0:32:38.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,orientalism that stresses the separation of people from each other.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.38,0:32:42.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That regards difference as a threat that must be contained or destroyed.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.55,0:32:46.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because of the complex and bloody history of the Middle East,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:46.43,0:32:49.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said regards the situation in Palestine and
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.11,0:32:53.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Israel as the ultimate test case facing the 21st century of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:53.34,0:32:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether we live together in peace and reconciliation
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.00,0:32:58.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with our differences or whether we
Dialogue: 0,0:32:58.30,0:33:00.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,live apart in fear and loathing of each other,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:00.94,0:33:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,constantly under threat, constantly at war.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:03.55,0:33:06.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In seeking a way out of this legacy of mistrust and conflict,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:06.77,0:33:11.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said draws upon the work of Italian philosopher Antonio Gramsci,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.90,0:33:14.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who gives us the tools to think about these
Dialogue: 0,0:33:14.40,0:33:17.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difficult issues in more productive and humane ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.56,0:33:21.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Said: Well, Gramsci in the prison notebooks,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:21.22,0:33:26.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,says something that has always tremendously appealed to me,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.12,0:33:30.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that history deposits in us, our own history,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.15,0:33:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our family's history, our nation's history,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:32.50,0:33:37.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our tradition's history, which has left in us an affinity of traces,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:37.14,0:33:42.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all kinds of marks, through heredity,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:42.05,0:33:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through collective experience, through individual experience,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:44.42,0:33:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through family experience,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:45.60,0:33:47.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through relationships between one individual and another,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:47.95,0:33:56.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a whole book, if you like, a series, an infinity of traces.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:56.22,0:33:58.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there's no inventory.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:58.83,0:34:00.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is no orderly guide to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:00.99,0:34:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Gramsci says, therefore the task at the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.24,0:34:08.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,outset is to try to compile an inventory.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:08.54,0:34:10.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words, to try and make sense of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.70,0:34:12.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this seems to me at any rate to be
Dialogue: 0,0:34:12.95,0:34:16.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the most interesting sort of human task:
Dialogue: 0,0:34:16.18,0:34:19.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's the task of interpretation.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.19,0:34:22.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's the task of giving history some shape and sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:22.43,0:34:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For a particular reason,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:24.56,0:34:26.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just to show that my history is better
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.47,0:34:29.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than yours or my history is worse than yours,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:29.08,0:34:32.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm a victim and you're somebody who has oppressed people.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:32.64,0:34:34.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But rather, to understand my history
Dialogue: 0,0:34:34.66,0:34:36.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of other people's history.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:36.74,0:34:38.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words to try to -
Dialogue: 0,0:34:38.01,0:34:39.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to move beyond to generalize one's own
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.57,0:34:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individual experience to the experience of others.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:43.17,0:34:46.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think -- I think the great --
Dialogue: 0,0:34:46.56,0:34:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goal is in fact to become someone else,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:52.56,0:34:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to transform itself from a unitary identity
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.57,0:35:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to an identity that includes the other without suppressing it.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.45,0:35:04.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That he says is the great goal,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:04.19,0:35:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and for me I think that would be the case.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.52,0:35:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:09.20,0:35:14.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that would be the notion of writing an inventory.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.14,0:35:16.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An historical inventory,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:16.04,0:35:17.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to not only understand oneself but to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.65,0:35:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understand oneself in relation to others and
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.25,0:35:23.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to understand others as if you would understand yourself.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:23.31,0:35:25.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Palestine is so important in this respect
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.96,0:35:30.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of its local complexities,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.60,0:35:34.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as say Arabs, Jews, Arab Muslims and Arab Christians and
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.67,0:35:38.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Israeli Jews of themselves, a very mixed background.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.74,0:35:40.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're talking about Polish Jews, Russian Jews,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.74,0:35:44.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,American Jews, Yemeni Jews, Iraqi jaws, Indian Jews;
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.15,0:35:47.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a fairly complex mosaic.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:47.55,0:35:50.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Somehow finding a way to live together.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:50.15,0:35:53.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On land that is drenched,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.87,0:35:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saturated with significance on a world scale
Dialogue: 0,0:35:58.40,0:36:00.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unlike any other country in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:00.79,0:36:04.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean it's holy to three of the major religions.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:04.73,0:36:07.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And every inch of it has been combed over and
Dialogue: 0,0:36:07.15,0:36:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fought over for the last several thousand years and
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.10,0:36:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the pattern so far has been the Zionist pattern,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.78,0:36:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is to say that it was promised to us,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:16.24,0:36:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we are the chosen people.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:17.92,0:36:19.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everybody else is sort of second rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:19.65,0:36:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Throw 'em out or treat 'em as a second class citizen.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:22.85,0:36:27.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in contrast to that, some of us,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.18,0:36:29.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not everybody but many Palestinians have said, well,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:29.89,0:36:33.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we realize that we are being asked to pay the price
Dialogue: 0,0:36:33.29,0:36:37.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for what happened to the Jews in Europe after the holocaust.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.49,0:36:41.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's an entire Christian and European catastrophe
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.14,0:36:43.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which the Arabs played no part.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:43.62,0:36:47.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we are being dispossessed, displaced by our --
Dialogue: 0,0:36:47.54,0:36:52.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we've become the victims of the victim but as I say,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:52.63,0:36:54.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not all of us say, well,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.41,0:36:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they should be thrown out because we have been
Dialogue: 0,0:36:57.07,0:36:59.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thrown out and so we have another vision,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:59.17,0:37:02.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a vision of co-existence in which Jew and Arab,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:02.32,0:37:07.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Muslim, Christian, and Jew can live together in some
Dialogue: 0,0:37:07.50,0:37:11.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,polity in which I think it requires a kind of creativity and invention.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:11.96,0:37:13.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:13.87,0:37:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Vision.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:15.84,0:37:20.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That would replace the authoritarian hierarchical model.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:20.21,0:37:23.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this idea that somehow we should protect ourselves against the
Dialogue: 0,0:37:23.01,0:37:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,infiltrations, the infections of the other,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:25.44,0:37:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is I think the most dangerous idea.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.20,0:37:33.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the end of the 20th century and unless we find ways
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.90,0:37:37.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do it and there are no shortcuts to it,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:37.22,0:37:40.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unless we find ways to do this,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:40.56,0:37:43.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's going to be wholesale violence of a sort
Dialogue: 0,0:37:43.51,0:37:48.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,represented by the Gulf War, by the killings in Bosnia,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.76,0:37:50.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Rwandan massacres and so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:50.79,0:37:53.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean those are the pattern of emerging conflict
Dialogue: 0,0:37:53.90,0:37:55.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is extremely dangerous and needs to be
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.95,0:37:58.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,counteracted and I think therefore it's correct
Dialogue: 0,0:37:58.09,0:38:00.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to say that the challenge is --
Dialogue: 0,0:38:00.23,0:38:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wouldn't call it anything other than coexistence.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.88,0:38:09.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How does one co-exist with peoples whose religions are different.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:09.37,0:38:12.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whose traditions and languages are different.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:12.76,0:38:15.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But who form part of the same community.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:15.13,0:38:17.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A polity. In a national sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:17.83,0:38:23.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we accept difference without violence and hostility.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:23.14,0:38:27.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've been interested in a field called comparative literature most --
Dialogue: 0,0:38:27.50,0:38:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of my adult life.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.31,0:38:32.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The ideal of comparative literature is not to show how
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.31,0:38:35.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,English literature is really a secondary phenomenon of
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.25,0:38:37.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,French literature or Arabic literature is --
Dialogue: 0,0:38:37.32,0:38:39.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, a kind of poor cousin to
Dialogue: 0,0:38:39.95,0:38:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Persian literature or any of those silly things,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:41.74,0:38:46.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but to show them existing, you might say, as contrapuntal lines.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:46.73,0:38:49.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In a great composition by which difference
Dialogue: 0,0:38:49.35,0:38:54.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is respectively understood without coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:54.92,0:38:58.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's that attitude that I think we need.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:58.94,0:39:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Music]