WEBVTT 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:04.416 Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start by just telling us about your country. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.296 It's three dots there on the globe. Those dots are pretty huge. 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.976 I think each one is about the size of California. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:12.856 Tell us about Kiribati. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:17.376 Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin by saying how deeply grateful I am 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:21.536 for this opportunity to share my story with people who do care. 00:00:21.560 --> 00:00:27.136 I think I've been sharing my story with a lot of people who don't care too much. 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:31.016 But Kiribati is comprised of three groups of islands: 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:33.856 the Gilbert Group on the west, 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:37.216 we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle, 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:41.656 and the Line Islands in the east. 00:00:41.680 --> 00:00:44.776 And quite frankly, Kiribati is perhaps the only country 00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:47.141 that is actually in the four corners of the world, 00:00:47.166 --> 00:00:50.465 because we are in the Northern Hemisphere, in the Southern Hemisphere, 00:00:50.490 --> 00:00:53.545 and also in the east and the west of the International Date Line. 00:00:53.570 --> 00:00:59.896 These islands are entirely made up of coral atolls, 00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:04.855 and on average about two meters above sea level. 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.336 And so this is what we have. 00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:13.176 Usually not more than two kilometers in width. 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.136 And so, on many occasions, I've been asked by people, 00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:18.696 "You know, you're suffering, why don't you move back?" 00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:19.936 They don't understand. 00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:23.656 They have no concept of what it is that's involved. 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.256 With the rising sea, they say, "Well, you can move back." 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.856 And so this is what I tell them. 00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:33.216 If we move back, we will fall off on the other side of the ocean. OK? 00:01:33.240 --> 00:01:38.016 But these are the kinds of issues that people don't understand. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:42.256 CA: So certainly this is just a picture of fragility there. 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:44.816 When was it that you yourself realized 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.456 that there might be impending peril for your country? NOTE Paragraph 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.936 AT: Well, the story of climate change has been one that has been going on 00:01:51.960 --> 00:01:53.416 for quite a number of decades. 00:01:53.440 --> 00:01:58.176 And when I came into office in 2003, 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.456 I began talking about climate change at the United Nations General Assembly, 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:05.216 but not with so much passion, 00:02:05.240 --> 00:02:08.856 because then there was still this controversy among the scientists 00:02:08.880 --> 00:02:14.136 whether it was human-induced, whether it was real or it wasn't. 00:02:14.160 --> 00:02:20.296 But I think that that debate was fairly much concluded in 2007 00:02:20.320 --> 00:02:25.896 with the Fourth Assessment Report of the IPCC, 00:02:25.920 --> 00:02:32.776 which made a categorical statement that it is real, it's human-induced, 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.736 and it's predicting some very serious scenarios 00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:39.296 for countries like mine. 00:02:39.320 --> 00:02:42.576 And so that's when I got very serious. 00:02:42.600 --> 00:02:46.576 In the past, I talked about it. 00:02:46.600 --> 00:02:47.816 We were worried. 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.576 But when the scenarios, the predictions came in 2007, 00:02:51.600 --> 00:02:53.936 it became a real issue for us. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:59.576 CA: Now, those predictions are, I think, that by 2100, 00:02:59.600 --> 00:03:02.376 sea levels are forecast to rise perhaps three feet. 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.020 There's scenarios where it's higher than that, for sure, 00:03:05.044 --> 00:03:07.180 but what would you say to a skeptic who said, 00:03:07.204 --> 00:03:08.376 "What's three feet? 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.576 You're on average six feet above sea level. 00:03:10.600 --> 00:03:12.176 What's the problem?" NOTE Paragraph 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:14.256 AT: Well, I think it's got to be understood 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.336 that a marginal rise in sea level 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.936 would mean a loss of a lot of land, 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:22.216 because much of the land is low. 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:27.336 And quite apart from that, we are getting the swells at the moment. 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:29.536 So it's not about getting two feet. 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.576 I think what many people do not understand 00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:38.776 is they think climate change is something that is happening in the future. 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.616 Well, we're at the very bottom end of the spectrum. 00:03:41.640 --> 00:03:42.896 It's already with us. 00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:46.736 We have communities who already have been dislocated. 00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:50.696 They have had to move, and every parliament session, 00:03:50.720 --> 00:03:53.056 I'm getting complaints from different communities 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.136 asking for assistance to build seawalls, 00:03:56.160 --> 00:03:58.696 to see what we can do about the freshwater lens 00:03:58.720 --> 00:04:00.536 because it's being destroyed, 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.296 and so in my trips to the different islands, 00:04:03.320 --> 00:04:06.016 I'm seeing evidence of communities 00:04:06.040 --> 00:04:09.656 which are now having to cope with the loss of food crops, 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:13.256 the contamination of the water lenses, 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:17.616 and I see these communities perhaps leaving, having to relocate, 00:04:17.640 --> 00:04:19.976 within five to 10 years. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:23.936 CA: And then, I think the country suffered its first cyclone, 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:27.496 and this is connected, yes? What happened here? NOTE Paragraph 00:04:27.520 --> 00:04:30.216 AT: Well, we're on the equator, 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:34.656 and I'm sure many of you understand that when you're on the equator, 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.256 it's supposed to be in the doldrums. We're not supposed to get the cyclones. 00:04:38.280 --> 00:04:41.090 We create them, and then we send them either north or south. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:41.114 --> 00:04:42.496 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:04:42.520 --> 00:04:44.376 But they aren't supposed to come back. 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:46.924 But for the first time, at the beginning of this year, 00:04:46.948 --> 00:04:50.616 the Cyclone Pam, which destroyed Vanuatu, 00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:54.096 and in the process, the very edges of it actually touched 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.496 our two southernmost islands, 00:04:56.520 --> 00:05:01.896 and all of Tuvalu was underwater when Hurricane Pam struck. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.616 But for our two southernmost islands, 00:05:05.640 --> 00:05:08.976 we had waves come over half the island, 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.456 and so this has never happened before. 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:13.056 It's a new experience. 00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:18.416 And I've just come back from my own constituency, 00:05:18.440 --> 00:05:21.776 and I've seen these beautiful trees which had been there for decades, 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:23.776 they've been totally destroyed. 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:25.496 So this is what's happening, 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:29.376 but when we talk about the rising sea level, 00:05:29.400 --> 00:05:32.496 we think it's something that happens gradually. 00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:35.576 It comes with the winds, it comes with the swells, 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:37.536 and so they can be magnified, 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:43.736 but what we are beginning to witness is the change in the weather pattern, 00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:46.496 which is perhaps the more urgent challenge 00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:51.056 that we will face sooner than perhaps the rising sea level. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:54.336 CA: So the country is already seeing effects now. 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.536 As you look forward, 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.496 what are your options as a country, as a nation? NOTE Paragraph 00:06:00.520 --> 00:06:03.176 AT: Well, I've been telling this story every year. 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:04.629 I think I visit a number of -- 00:06:04.653 --> 00:06:09.616 I've been traveling the world to try and get people to understand. 00:06:09.640 --> 00:06:12.096 We have a plan, we think we have a plan. 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:15.536 And on one occasion, I think I spoke in Geneva 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.736 and there was a gentleman who was interviewing me 00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:21.496 on something like this, 00:06:21.520 --> 00:06:23.856 and I said, "We are looking at floating islands," 00:06:23.880 --> 00:06:26.096 and he thought it was funny, but somebody said, 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:30.056 "No, this is not funny. These people are looking for solutions." 00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:33.616 And so I have been looking at floating islands. 00:06:33.640 --> 00:06:37.376 The Japanese are interested in building floating islands. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:37.400 --> 00:06:40.336 But, as a country, we have made a commitment 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.056 that no matter what happens, we will try as much as possible 00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:48.256 to stay and continue to exist as a nation. 00:06:48.280 --> 00:06:49.816 What that will take, 00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:53.256 it's going to be something quite significant, 00:06:53.280 --> 00:06:55.296 very, very substantial. 00:06:55.320 --> 00:06:57.096 Either we live on floating islands, 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.096 or we have to build up the islands to continue to stay out of the water 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.856 as the sea level rises and as the storms get more severe. 00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:08.309 But even that, it's going to be very, very difficult 00:07:08.333 --> 00:07:11.176 to get the kind of resourcing that we would need. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:11.200 --> 00:07:15.056 CA: And then the only recourse is some form of forced migration. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:17.296 AT: Well, we are also looking at that 00:07:17.320 --> 00:07:20.216 because in the event that nothing comes forward 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.056 from the international community, 00:07:22.080 --> 00:07:23.336 we are preparing, 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.576 we don't want to be caught like what's happening in Europe. 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.296 OK? We don't want to mass migrate at some point in time. 00:07:29.320 --> 00:07:32.736 We want to be able to give the people the choice today, 00:07:32.760 --> 00:07:36.416 those who choose and want to do that, to migrate. 00:07:36.440 --> 00:07:41.496 We don't want something to happen that they are forced to migrate 00:07:41.520 --> 00:07:43.816 without having been prepared to do so. 00:07:43.840 --> 00:07:47.336 Of course, our culture is very different, our society is very different, 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.696 and once we migrate into a different environment, 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:50.936 a different culture, 00:07:50.960 --> 00:07:53.896 there's a whole lot of adjustments that are required. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:57.176 CA: Well, there's forced migration in your country's past, 00:07:57.200 --> 00:07:58.856 and I think just this week, 00:07:58.880 --> 00:08:02.136 just yesterday or the day before yesterday, 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.336 you visited these people. 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.536 What happened here? What's the story here? NOTE Paragraph 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.976 AT: Yes, and I'm sorry, I think somebody was asking 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.976 why we were sneaking off to visit that place. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.976 I had a very good reason, because we have a community of Kiribati people 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.096 living in that part of the Solomon Islands, 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:23.976 but these were people who were relocated from the Phoenix Islands, in fact, 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:25.456 in the 1960s. 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:30.016 There was serious drought, and the people could not continue to live on the island, 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.416 and so they were moved to live here in the Solomon Islands. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:36.616 And so yesterday it was very interesting to meet with these people. 00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:39.096 They didn't know who I was. They hadn't heard of me. 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.696 Some of them later recognized me, 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:45.296 but I think they were very happy. 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:49.736 Later they really wanted to have the opportunity to welcome me formally. 00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:53.016 But I think what I saw yesterday was very interesting 00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:54.856 because here I see our people. 00:08:54.880 --> 00:09:00.696 I spoke in our language, and of course they spoke back, they replied, 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.416 but their accent, they are beginning not to be able to speak Kiribati properly. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.936 I saw them, there was this lady with red teeth. 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.176 She was chewing betel nuts, 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:12.456 and it's not something we do in Kiribati. 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.096 We don't chew betel nuts. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:20.976 I met also a family who have married the local people here, 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.096 and so this is what is happening. 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:28.696 As you go into another community, there are bound to be changes. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.176 There is bound to be a certain loss of identity, 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.656 and this is what we will be looking for in the future 00:09:36.680 --> 00:09:38.936 if and when we do migrate. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:42.136 CA: It must have been just an extraordinarily emotional day 00:09:42.160 --> 00:09:44.976 because of these questions about identity, 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:50.216 the joy of seeing you and perhaps an emphasized sense of what they had lost. 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:53.621 And it's very inspiring to hear you say you're going to fight to the end 00:09:53.645 --> 00:09:58.056 to try to preserve the nation in a location. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.376 AT: This is our wish. 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:02.456 Nobody wants ever to leave their home, 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:05.536 and so it's been a very difficult decision for me. 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:10.936 As a leader, you don't make plans to leave your island, your home, 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.216 and so I've been asked on a number of occasions, 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:14.456 "So how do you feel?" 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.616 And it doesn't feel good at all. 00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:21.216 It's an emotional thing, and I've tried to live with it, 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:26.176 and I know that on occasions, I'm accused of not trying to solve the problem 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.176 because I can't solve the problem. 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.016 It's something that's got to be done collectively. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:31.040 --> 00:10:36.816 Climate change is a global phenomenon, and as I've often argued, 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:41.336 unfortunately, the countries, when we come to the United Nations -- 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.256 I was in a meeting with the Pacific Island Forum countries 00:10:46.280 --> 00:10:48.776 where Australia and New Zealand are also members, 00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:50.536 and we had an argument. 00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:53.256 There was a bit of a story in the news 00:10:53.280 --> 00:10:57.576 because they were arguing that to cut emissions, 00:10:57.600 --> 00:10:59.856 it would be something that they're unable to do 00:10:59.880 --> 00:11:03.096 because it would affect the industries. 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:04.576 And so here I was saying, 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:06.816 OK, I hear you, 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:08.496 I understand what you're saying, 00:11:08.520 --> 00:11:10.776 but try also to understand what I'm saying 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:13.416 because if you do not cut your emissions, 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.816 then our survival is on the line. 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:20.176 And so it's a matter for you to weigh this, these moral issues. 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.216 It's about industry as opposed to the survival of a people. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:26.896 CA: You know, I ask you yesterday what made you angry, 00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:30.416 and you said, "I don't get angry." But then you paused. 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:32.056 I think this made you angry. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:36.976 AT: I'd refer you to my earlier statement at the United Nations. 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.936 I was very angry, very frustrated and then depressed. 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.936 There was a sense of futility 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:49.416 that we are fighting a fight that we have no hope of winning. 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.616 I had to change my approach. 00:11:51.640 --> 00:11:53.736 I had to become more reasonable 00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:56.903 because I thought people would listen to somebody who was rational, 00:11:56.927 --> 00:11:59.496 but I remain radically rational, whatever that is. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:01.136 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.896 CA: Now, a core part of your nation's identity is fishing. 00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:08.416 I think you said pretty much everyone is involved in fishing in some way. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.216 AT: Well, we eat fish every day, every day, 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.776 and I think there is no doubt that our rate of consumption of fish 00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:17.936 is perhaps the highest in the world. 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.416 We don't have a lot of livestock, 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.216 so it's fish that we depend on. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.376 CA: So you're dependent on fish, both at the local level 00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.096 and for the revenues that the country receives 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.696 from the global fishing business for tuna, 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:36.616 and yet despite that, a few years ago you took a very radical step. 00:12:36.640 --> 00:12:38.016 Can you tell us about that? 00:12:38.040 --> 00:12:41.376 I think something happened right here in the Phoenix Islands. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:41.400 --> 00:12:46.696 AT: Let me give some of the background of what fish means for us. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.656 We have one of the largest tuna fisheries remaining in the world. 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:53.536 In the Pacific, I think we own something like 60 percent 00:12:53.560 --> 00:12:55.456 of the remaining tuna fisheries, 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:59.736 and it remains relatively healthy for some species, but not all. 00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:04.880 And Kiribati is one of the three major resource owners, 00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:07.616 tuna resource owners. 00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:11.216 And at the moment, we have been getting 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.136 something like 80 to 90 percent of our revenue 00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:16.616 from access fees, license fees. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:18.496 CA: Of your national revenue. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:20.336 AT: National revenue, 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:23.176 which drives everything that we do 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.216 in governments, hospitals, schools and what have you. 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:32.456 But we decided to close this, and it was a very difficult decision. 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:38.016 I can assure you, politically, locally, it was not easy, 00:13:38.040 --> 00:13:41.976 but I was convinced that we had to do this 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.576 in order to ensure that the fishery remains sustainable. 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.376 There had been some indications that some of the species, 00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:53.536 in particular the bigeye, was under serious threat. 00:13:53.560 --> 00:13:56.936 The yellowfin was also heavily fished. 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:58.696 Skipjack remains healthy. 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.496 And so we had to do something like that, and so that was the reason I did that. 00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:07.416 Another reason why I did that 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:12.136 was because I had been asking the international community 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:16.696 that in order to deal with climate change, in order to fight climate change, 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.616 there has got to be sacrifice, there has got to be commitment. 00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:25.936 So in asking the international community to make a sacrifice, 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.776 I thought we ourselves need to make that sacrifice. 00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:30.616 And so we made the sacrifice. 00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:35.583 And forgoing commercial fishing 00:14:35.608 --> 00:14:38.216 in the Phoenix Islands protected area 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.096 would mean a loss of revenue. 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.597 We are still trying to assess what that loss would be 00:14:42.621 --> 00:14:47.856 because we actually closed it off at the beginning of this year, 00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:50.216 and so we will see by the end of this year 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.736 what it means in terms of the lost revenue. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:56.016 CA: So there's so many things playing into this. 00:14:56.040 --> 00:15:03.016 On the one hand, it may prompt healthier fisheries. 00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.416 I mean, how much are you able to move the price up 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.936 that you charge for the remaining areas? NOTE Paragraph 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:12.576 AT: The negotiations have been very difficult, 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:16.456 but we have managed to raise the cost of a vessel day. 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.096 For any vessel to come in to fish for a day, 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.736 we have raised the fee from -- it was $6,000 and $8,000, 00:15:22.760 --> 00:15:27.336 now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day. 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.576 And so there's been that significant increase. 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:35.176 But at the same time, what's important to note is, 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.536 whereas in the past these fishing boats 00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:43.496 might be fishing in a day and maybe catch 10 tons, 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:47.416 now they're catching maybe 100 tons because they've become so efficient. 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:49.776 And so we've got to respond likewise. 00:15:49.800 --> 00:15:53.976 We've got to be very, very careful because the technology has so improved. 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:59.416 There was a time when the Brazilian fleet moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:00.656 They couldn't. 00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:03.896 They started experimenting if they could, per se. 00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:07.600 But now they've got ways of doing it, and they've become so efficient. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.198 CA: Can you give us a sense of what it's like in those negotiations? 00:16:12.223 --> 00:16:13.920 Because you're up against companies 00:16:13.944 --> 00:16:17.536 that have hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, essentially. 00:16:17.560 --> 00:16:20.896 How do you hold the line? 00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:22.976 Is there any advice you can give 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.056 to other leaders who are dealing with the same companies 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.376 about how to get the most for your country, 00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:34.416 get the most for the fish? 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.976 What advice would you give? NOTE Paragraph 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:42.256 AT: Well, I think we focus too often on licensing 00:16:42.280 --> 00:16:43.947 in order to get the rate of return, 00:16:43.971 --> 00:16:46.776 because what we are getting from license fees 00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:49.416 is about 10 percent of the landed value of the catch 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.576 on the side of the wharf, not in the retail shops. 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.576 And we only get about 10 percent. 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.216 What we have been trying to do over the years 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:03.096 is actually to increase our participation in the industry, 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.736 in the harvesting, in the processing, 00:17:05.760 --> 00:17:07.617 and eventually, hopefully, the marketing. 00:17:07.642 --> 00:17:11.336 They're not easy to penetrate, 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.656 but we are working towards that, 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.296 and yes, the answer would be to enhance. 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:20.536 In order to increase our rate of return, we have to become more involved. 00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:23.736 And so we've started doing that, 00:17:23.760 --> 00:17:28.016 and we have to restructure the industry. 00:17:28.040 --> 00:17:31.416 We've got to tell these people that the world has changed. 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.856 Now we want to produce the fish ourselves. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:35.976 CA: And meanwhile, for your local fishermen, 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.096 they are still able to fish, 00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:41.576 but what is business like for them? 00:17:41.600 --> 00:17:43.936 Is it getting harder? Are the waters depleted? 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.416 Or is that being run on a sustainable basis? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:48.896 AT: For the artisanal fishery, 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.176 we do not participate in the commercial fishing activity 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.216 except only to supply the domestic market. 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.536 The tuna fishery is really entirely for the foreign market, 00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:04.776 mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan. 00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:09.336 So I am a fisherman, very much, 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:12.536 and I used to be able to catch yellowfin. 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:15.336 Now it's very, very rare to be able to catch yellowfin 00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:18.736 because they are being lifted out of the water by the hundreds of tons 00:18:18.760 --> 00:18:20.640 by these purse seiners. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:27.296 CA: So here's a couple of beautiful girls from your country. 00:18:27.320 --> 00:18:30.536 I mean, as you think about their future, 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:33.216 what message would you have for them 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.256 and what message would you have for the world? NOTE Paragraph 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:39.709 AT: Well, I've been telling the world that we really have to do something 00:18:39.733 --> 00:18:41.576 about what is happening to the climate 00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:44.376 because for us, it's about the future of these children. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.336 I have 12 grandchildren, at least. 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:48.376 I think I have 12, my wife knows. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.616 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.656 And I think I have eight children. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:54.936 It's about their future. 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.696 Every day I see my grandchildren, about the same age as these young girls, 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.136 and I do wonder, 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:03.376 and I get angry sometimes, yes I do. 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.456 I wonder what is to become of them. 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.616 And so it's about them 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.896 that we should be telling everybody, 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.176 that it's not about their own national interest, 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.856 because climate change, regrettably, unfortunately, 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.976 is viewed by many countries as a national problem. It's not. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.000 And this is the argument we got into recently with our partners, 00:19:24.024 --> 00:19:25.720 the Australians and New Zealanders, 00:19:25.744 --> 00:19:29.056 because they said, "We can't cut any more." 00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:32.696 This is what one of the leaders, the Australian leader, said, 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.976 that we've done our part, we are cutting back. 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.656 I said, What about the rest? Why don't you keep it? 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.376 If you could keep the rest of your emissions 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.696 within your boundaries, within your borders, 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:47.496 we'd have no question. 00:19:47.520 --> 00:19:49.336 You can go ahead as much as you like. 00:19:49.360 --> 00:19:51.496 But unfortunately, you're sending it our way, 00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:53.711 and it's affecting the future of our children. 00:19:53.735 --> 00:19:58.776 And so surely I think that is the heart of the problem of climate change today. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:58.800 --> 00:20:01.856 We will be meeting in Paris at the end of this year, 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:05.816 but until we can think of this as a global phenomenon, 00:20:05.840 --> 00:20:09.096 because we create it, individually, as nations, 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:11.056 but it affects everybody else, 00:20:11.080 --> 00:20:14.696 and yet, we refuse to do anything about it, 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.176 and we deal with it as a national problem, 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:19.296 which it is not -- it is a global issue, 00:20:19.320 --> 00:20:22.040 and it's got to be dealt with collectively. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:27.456 CA: People are incredibly bad at responding to graphs and numbers, 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.256 and we shut our minds to it. 00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:37.536 Somehow, to people, we're slightly better at responding to that sometimes. 00:20:37.560 --> 00:20:40.496 And it seems like it's very possible that your nation, 00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:44.976 despite, actually because of the intense problems you face, 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.896 you may yet be the warning light to the world that shines most visibly, 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.896 most powerfully. 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:54.737 I just want to thank you, I'm sure, on behalf of all of us, 00:20:54.762 --> 00:20:57.256 for your extraordinary leadership and for being here. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:58.853 Mr. President, thank you so much. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:58.873 --> 00:20:59.646 AT: Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:59.666 --> 00:21:02.120 (Applause)