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Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start
by just telling us about your country.

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It's three dots there on the globe.
Those dots are pretty huge.

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I think each one is about
the size of California.

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Tell us about Kiribati.

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Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin
by saying how deeply grateful I am

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for this opportunity to share my story
with people who do care.

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I think I've been sharing my story with
a lot of people who don't care too much.

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But Kiribati is comprised
of three groups of islands:

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the Gilbert Group on the west,
we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,

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and the Line Islands in the east,

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and quite frankly, Kiribati
is perhaps the only country

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that is actually
in the four corners of the world,

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because we are in the Northern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,

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but also in the east and the west
of the International Dateline.

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These islands are entirely
made up of coral atolls,

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and on average about
two meters above sea level.

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And so this is what we have,

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usually, then, not more
than two kilometers in width.

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And so, in many occasions,
I've been asked by people,

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"You know, you're suffering,
why don't you move back?"

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They don't understand.

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They have no concept
of what it is that's involved.

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With the rising sea, they say,
"Well, you can move back."

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And so this is what I tell them.

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If we move back, and we will fall off
on the other side of the ocean. Okay?

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But these are the kinds of issues
that people don't understand.

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CA: So certainly this is
just a picture of fragility there.

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When was it that you yourself realized

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that there might be
impending peril for your country?

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AT: Well, the story of climate change
has been one that has been going on

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for quite a number of decades,

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and when I came into office in 2003,

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I began talking about climate change
at the United Nations General Assembly,

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but not with so much passion,

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because then there was still
this controversy among the scientists

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whether it was human-induced,
whether it was real or it wasn't.

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But I think that that debate
was fairly much concluded in 2007

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with the Fourth Assessment Report
of the IPCC,

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which made a categorical statement
that it is real, it's human-induced,

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and it's predicting some very,
very serious scenarios

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for countries like mine.

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And so that's when I got very serious.

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In the past, I talked about it.

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We were worried.

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But when the scenarios,
the predictions came in 2007,

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it became a real issue for us.

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CA: Now, those predictions are that,
I think, that by 2100,

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sea levels are forecast to rise
perhaps three feet.

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There's scenarios where
it's higher than that, for sure,

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but what would you say to a skeptic
who said, "What's three feet?

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You're on average six feet
above sea level.

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What's the problem?"

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AT: Well, I think it's got
to be understood

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that the marginal rise in sea level

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would mean a loss of a lot of land,

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because much of the land is low.

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And quite apart from that,
we are getting the swells at the moment.

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So it's not about getting two feet.

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I think what many people do not understand

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is they think climate change is something
that is happening in the future.

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Well, we're at the very
bottom end of the spectrum.

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It's already with us.

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We have communities who already
have been dislocated.

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They have had to move,
and every parliament session,

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I'm getting complaints
from different communities

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asking for assistance to build seawalls

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to see what we can do
about the freshwater lakes

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because it's being destroyed,

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and so in my trips
to the different islands,

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I'm seeing evidence of communities

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which are now having to cope
with the loss of food crops,

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the contamination of the water lands,

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and I see these communities
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,

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within five to 10 years.

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CA: And then, I think the country
suffered its first cyclone,

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and this is connected, yes?
What happened here?

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AT: Well, we're on the equator,

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and I'm sure many of you understand
that when you're on the equator,

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it's supposed to be the doldrums.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.

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We create them, and then we send them
either north or south.

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(Laughter)

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But they aren't supposed to come back.

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But for the first time,
at the beginning of this year,

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the Cyclone Pam, which destroyed Vanuatu,

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and in the process, the very
edges of it actually touched

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our two southernmost islands,

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and all of Tuvalu was underwater
when Hurricane Pam struck.

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But for our two southernmost islands,

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we had waves come over half the island,

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and so this has never happened before.

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It's a new experience.

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And I've just come back
from my own constituency,

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and I've seen these beautiful trees
which have been there for decades,

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they've been totally destroyed.

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So this is what's happening, but when
we talk about the rising sea level,

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we think it's something
that happens gradually.

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It comes with the winds,
it comes with the swells,

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and so they can be magnified,

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but what we are beginning to witness
is the change in the weather pattern,

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which is perhaps the more urgent challenge

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that we will face sooner
than perhaps the rising sea level.

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CA: So the country is already
seeing effects now.

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As you look forward,

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what are your options
as a country, as a nation?

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AT: Well, I've been telling
this story every year.

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I think I visit a number,
I've been traveling the world

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to try and get people to understand.

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We have a plan. We think we have a plan,

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and one occasion, I think
I spoke in Geneva

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and there was a gentleman
who was interviewing me

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on something like this,

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and I said, "Yeah, we are looking
at floating islands,"

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and he thought it was funny,
but somebody said,

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"No, this is not funny.
These people are looking for solutions."

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And so I have been looking
at floating islands.

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The Japanese are interested
in building floating islands.

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But we have, as a country,
we have made a commitment

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that no matter what happens,
we will try as much as possible

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to stay and continue
to exist as a nation.

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What that will take,

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it's going to be something
quite significant,

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very, very substantial.

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Either we live on floating islands,

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or we have to build up the islands
to continue to stay out of the water

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as the sea level rises
and as the storms get more severe.

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But even that, it's going to be
very, very difficult

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to get the kind of resourcing
that we would need.

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CA: And then the only recourse
is some form of forced migration.

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AT: Well, we are also looking at that,

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because in the event
that nothing comes forward

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from the international community,

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we are preparing, we don't want to be
caught like what's happening in Europe.

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Okay? We don't want to mass migrate
at some point in time.

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We want to be able to give the people
the choice today,

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those who choose and want
to do that, to migrate.

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We don't want something to happen
that they are forced to migrate

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without having been prepared to do so.

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Of course, our culture is very different,
our society is very different,

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and once we migrate
into a different environment,

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and a different culture,

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there's a whole lot of adjustments
that are required.

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CA: Well, there's forced migration
in your country's past,

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and I think just this week, just yesterday
or the day before yesterday,

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you visited these people.

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What happened here?
What's the story here?

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AT: Yes, and I'm sorry,
I think somebody was asking

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why we were sneaking off
to visit that place?

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I had a very good reason because we have
a community of Kiribati people

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living in that part
of the Solomon Islands,

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but these were people who were relocated
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,

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in the 1960s.

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There was serious drought, and the people
could not continue to live on the island,

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and so they were moved to live here
in the Solomon Islands,

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and so yesterday it was very interesting
to meet with these people.

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They didn't know who I was.
They had heard of me.

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Some of them later recognized me,

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but I think they were very happy.

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Later they really wanted to have
the opportunity to welcome me formally.

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But I think what I saw yesterday
was very interesting,

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because here I see our people.

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I spoke in our language,

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and of course they spoke back,
they replied,

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but their accent, they are beginning
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.

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I saw them. There was
this lady with red teeth.

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She was chewing betel nuts,

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and it's not something we do in Kiribati.
We don't chew betel nuts.

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I met also a family who have married
the local people here,

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and so this is what is happening.

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As you go into another community,
there are bound to be changes.

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There is bound to be
a certain loss of identity,

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and this is what we will be
looking for in the future

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if and when we do migrate.

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CA: It must have been
just an extraordinarily emotional day,

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because of these questions about identity,

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the joy of seeing you and perhaps
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.

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And it's very inspiring to hear you say
you're going to fight to the end

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to try to preserve the nation
in a location.

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AT: This is our wish.

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Nobody wants ever to leave their home,

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and so it's been a very
difficult decision for me.

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As a leader, you don't make plans
to leave your island, your home,

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and so I've been asked
on a number of occasions,

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"So how do you feel?"

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And it doesn't feel good at all.

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It's an emotional thing,
and I've tried to live with it,

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and I know that on occasions, I'm accused
of not trying to solve the problem

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because I can't solve the problem.

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It's something that's got
to be done collectively.

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Climate change is a global phenomenon,
and as I've often argued,

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unfortunately, the countries,
when we come to the United Nations,

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I was in a meeting with
the Pacific Island Forum countries

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where Australia and New Zealand
are also members,

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and we had an argument.

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There was a bit of a story in the news,

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because they were arguing
that to cut emissions,

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it would be something
that they're unable to do,

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because it would affect the industries.

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And so here I was saying,
"Okay, I hear you,

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I understand what you're saying,

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but try also to understand
what I'm saying,

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because if you do not cut your emissions,

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then our survival is on the line.

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And so it's a matter for you
to weigh this, these moral issues.

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It's about industry as opposed to
the survival of a people.

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CA: You know, I ask you yesterday
what made you angry,

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and you said, "I don't get angry."
But then you paused.

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I think this made you angry.

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AT: I'd refer you to my earlier
statement at the United Nations.

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I was very angry, very frustrated,
and then depressed.

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There was a sense of futility
that we are fighting a fight

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that we have no hope of winning.

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I had to change my approach.

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I had to become more reasonable,

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because I thought people would listen
to somebody who was rational,

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but I remain radically rational,
whatever that is.

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(Laughter)

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CA: Now, a core part
of your nation's identity is fishing.

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I think you said pretty much everyone
is involved in fishing in some way.

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AT: Well, we eat fish
every day, every day,

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and I think there is no doubt
that our rate of consumption of fish

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is perhaps the highest in the world.

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We don't have a lot of livestock,

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so it's fish that we depend on.

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CA: So you're dependent on fish,
both at the local level

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and for the revenues
that the country receives

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from the global fishing business for tuna,

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and yet despite that, a few years ago
you took a very radical step.

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Can you tell us about that?

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I think something happened
right here in the Phoenix Islands.

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AT: Let me give some of the background
of what fish means for us.

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We have one of the largest
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.

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In the Pacific, I think we own
something like 60 percent

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of the remaining tuna fisheries,

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and it remains relatively healthy
for some species, but not all.

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And Kiribati is one of of the three
major tuna resource owners.

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And at the moment, we have been getting

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something like 80 to 90
percent of our revenue

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from access fees, license fees.

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CA: Of your national revenue.
AT: National revenue,

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which drives everything that we do

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in governments, hospitals,
schools, and what have you.

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But we decided to close this,
and it was a very difficult decision.

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Politically, locally, it was not easy,

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but I was convinced
that we had to do this

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to ensure that the fishery
remains sustainable.

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There had been some indications
that some of the species,

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in particular the bigeye tuna,
was under serious threat.

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The yellowfin was also heavily fished.

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Skipjack remains healthy.

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And so we had to do something like that,
and so that was the reason I did that.

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Another reason I did that

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was because I had been asking
the international community

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that in order to deal with climate change,
in order to fight climate change,

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there has got to be sacrifice,
there has got to be commitment.

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So in asking the international community
to make a sacrifice,

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I thought we ourselves
need to make that sacrifice.

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And so we made the sacrifice.

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And that, forgoing commercial fishing
in the Phoenix Islands protect area

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would mean a loss of revenue.

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We are still trying to assess
what that loss would be,

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because we actually closed it off
at the beginning of this year,

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and so we will see by the end of this year

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what it means in terms
of the lost revenue.

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CA: so there's so many things
playing into this.

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On the one hand, it may prompt
healthier fisheries.

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I mean, how much are you able
to move the price up

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that you charge for the remaining areas?

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AT: The negotiations
have been very difficult,

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but we have managed to raise
the cost of a vessel day.

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For any vessel to come in
to fish for a day,

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we have raised the fee from,
it was $6,000 and $8,000,

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now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day.

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And so there's been
that significant increase.

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But at the same time,
what's important to note is,

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whereas in the past these fishing boats

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might be fishing in a day
and maybe catch 10 tons,

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now they're catching maybe 100 tons
because they've become so efficient.

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And so we've got to respond likewise.

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We've got to be very, very careful
because the technology has so improved.

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There was a time when the Brazilian fleet
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

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They couldn't. They started experimenting
if they could, per se.

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But now they've got ways of doing it,
and they've become so efficient.

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CA: Can you give us just a sense
of what it's like in those negotiations,

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because you're up against companies

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that have hundreds of millions
of dollars at stake, essentially.

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How do you hold the line?

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Is there any advice you can give
to other leaders who are dealing

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with the same companies about how
to get the most for your country,

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get the most for the fish?

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What advice would you give?

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AT: Well, I think we focus
too often on licensing

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in order to get the rate of return,
because what we are getting

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from license fees is about 10 percent
of the landed value of the catch

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on the side of the wharf,
not in the retail shops.

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And we only get about 10 percent.

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What we have been trying
to do over the years

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is actually to increase
our participation in the industry,

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in the harvesting, in the processing,

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and eventually hopefully the marketing.

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They're not easy to penetrate,

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but we are working towards that,

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and yes, the answer would be to enhance.

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In order to increase our rate of return,
we have to become more involved.

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And so we've started doing that,

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and we have to restructure the industry.

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We've got to tell these people
that the world has changed.

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Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.

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CA: And meanwhile,
for your local fishermen,

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they are still able to fish,

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but what is business like for them?

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Is it getting harder?
Are the waters depleted?

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Or is that being run
on a sustainable basis?

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AT: For the artisanal fishery,

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we do not participate
in the commercial fishing activity

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except only to supply the domestic market.

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The tuna fishery is really entirely
for the foreign market,

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mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.

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So I am a fisherman, very much,

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and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.

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Now it's very, very rare
to be able to catch yellowfin

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because they are being lifted
out of the water by the hundreds of tons

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by these sailors.

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CA: So here's a couple
of beautiful girls from your country.

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I mean, as you think about their future,

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what message would you have for them

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and what message would you have
for the world?

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AT: Well, I've been telling the world
that we really have to do something

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about what is happening to the climate,

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because for us, it's about
the future of these children.

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I have 12 grandchildren, at least.

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I think I have 12. My wife knows.

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(Laughter)

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And I think I have eight children.

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It's about their future.

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Every day I see my grandchildren,
about the same age as these young girls,

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and I do wonder,

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and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.

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I wonder what is to become of them.

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And so it's about them

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that we should be telling everybody,

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that it's not about
their own national interest,

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because climate change,
regrettably, unfortunately,

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is viewed by many countries
as a national problem. It's not.

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And this is the argument we got into
recently with our partners,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the Australians and New Zealanders,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because they said we can't cut any more.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is what one of the leaders,
the Australian leader, said,

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that we've done our part,
we are cutting back.

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I said, what about the rest?
Why don't you keep it?

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If you could keep
the rest of your emissions

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within your boundaries, within
your borders, we'd have no question.

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You can go ahead as much as you like.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But unfortunately,
you're sending it our way,

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and it's affecting the future
of our children,

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and so surely I think that is the heart
of the problem of climate change today.

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We will be meeting in Paris
at the end of this year,

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but until we can think of this
as a global phenomenon,

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because we create it,
individually, as nations,

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but it affects everybody else,

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and yet, we refuse to do
anything about it,

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and we deal with it as a national problem,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which it is not. It is a global issue,

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and it's got to be dealt with
collectively.

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CA: People are incredibly bad
at responding to graphs

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and numbers, and we shut our minds to it.

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Somehow, to people, we're slightly better
at resonding to that sometimes.

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And it seems like it's very possible
that your nation, despite,

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well actually because of
the intense problems you face,

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you may yet be the warning light
to the world that shines most visibly,

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most powerful.

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I just want to thank you, I'm sure,
on behalf of all of us, actually,

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for your extraordinary leadership
and for being here.

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Mr. President, thank you.

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(Applause)