WEBVTT

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We're very happy to have digital minister
of Taiwan, who's come to our DebConf '18.

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I don't even have to tell him what to say,
because he knows what to do.

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[applause]

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Thank you, everyone, happy to be here.

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To somewhat compensate the lack of Q&A time
in the previous session, we will start with

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the Q&A.

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If you have any device connected to the Internet,
please go to this website.

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It's called slido.com, S-L-I-D-O.com.

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Once you're on this website, you will be asked
to enter a number.

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Without the hash, it's just seven two eight,
or today's date.

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Once you enter the three digits, you can press
join or a small, green button.

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Then you will be dropped into this anonymous
or pseudonymous chat channel.

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Here, feel free to ask me anything, like literally
anything.

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If you see other people's questions that you
would also like to see me answer, you can

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just press like.

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The questions with the most number of likes
will float to the top on this projection here.

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For the rest of this hour, I guess, the next
15 minutes, I'll begin with a short introduction,

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maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, about
my work in the Taiwan administration in the

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public digital innovation space, the PDIS,
as we're seeing here.

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Meanwhile, as I'm talking, feel free to ask
me any and all questions, which will show

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up on the phone here.

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Once there's sufficient number of questions,
then I will switch right back to Slido.

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My current favorite programming language is
text/plain character set UTF-8.

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[laughs] It's one of the most versatile programming
language there is.

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I'll explore that more in my talk.

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I'm sure it's your favorite programming language
too.

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[laughs] Let's get started.

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Unlike many people working on democracy today,
I'm an optimist when it comes to democracy

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and especially Internet democracy.

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This strange condition began when I was 15
years old.

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That was 1996.

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I discovered that the future of human knowledge
and indeed future of democracy is happening

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on the web and my education in school is a
little out of date.

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I told my teachers that I found this wonderful
constitutional democracy called Debian -- no,

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really, I did -- on the Internet, where people
use Condorcet voting methods and these very

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advanced algorithms and policy development
process and so on.

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I want to quit school and begin my education
on the World Wide Web.

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Surprisingly, my teachers were very reasonable
people and they all agreed with it.

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After that, I just dropped out of high school
and started a few web startups and just participated

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in this wonderful community of the Internet
Society and the open-source and free software

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communities to basically see that how people
can at least come to consensus or at least

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consent through radical transparency and rough
consensus and so on.

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Today I'm Taiwan's digital minister for a
year-and-a-half now.

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I'm applying the lessons that I learned when
I was 15 years old, civic participation, rough

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consensus, radical transparency to the representative
democratic system here.

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Surprisingly, it's working 
and it's changing, gradually, our society.

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Two years ago, when President Tsai Ing-wen
first became inaugurated as our president,

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she said an inspiring statement in her inauguration
speech.

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She said, "Before, when we think of democracy,
we think about the opposition between two

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opposing values.

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But now, from now on, Taiwan's democracy need
to become a conversation between many diverse

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values."

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The key point here is the plural of this word
"value."

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There's many values in Taiwan and we're going
to build a conversational, deliberative democracy

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out of those very different but diverse values.

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Indeed, previously, when people think about
the government or the state, or things like

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that, people tend to have this picture, like
we have different departments.

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We have different ministries.

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We have different council within the parliament,
who talk to, for example, the environmental

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agency may talk to the environmentalist groups.

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The minister of economy may talk to developmental,
more capitalistic groups and so on.

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There's different nodes within the government
to talk to the different sides of stakeholders.

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People imagined that the government is what
brings people together and who arbitrates

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between those conflicting or opposing forces.

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This model of governance, as all of you know,
has become bankrupt within the previous decade

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or so with the advent of the social web and
the Internet activism.

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The reason is that people can organize now
perfectly fine without a representative organizer

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from the mainstream media or from the representative
democracy.

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Also, because there's so many emerging issues,
we can't have a different ministry or a different

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agency for each of them.

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If the government insists on being still this
kind of rope in between, not only is its organizational

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value much lower than before, it would be
torn between so many different interests that

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it become paralyzed.

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The distance between the government and people,
while not increasing...The distance between

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people and people have much shortened.

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It leads to a recession or a distrust to the
democratic institutions.

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The way we're working on this is basically
reimagine the questions governance systems

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ask.

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Instead of asking who we need to represent
or what is fair arbitration, we ask instead

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what is the due process in which that the
various different stakeholders can find common

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values, and given the common values, can we
come up with solutions that works for everyone,

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that everyone can live with.

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This is the idea of civic tech or, basically,
technology that enables people to listen to

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one another.

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This has, basically, a lot of international
metrics measuring this, like the diversity

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of gender and participation in the Internet,
like the rank of open data and accessibility,

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like the access to e-participation platforms.

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Since 2015, Taiwan has been consistently ranked
number one or number two in all of those metrics

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worldwide.

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The reason is that at the end of 2014, there
is a radical U-turn of national direction

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by embracing the wisdom of the crowd and open
government as the national direction.

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It was catalyzed and epitomized by Occupy
movement back in 2014 where people occupied

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the parliament for 22 days in a nonviolent
demonstration.

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When we say demonstration, we mean it in like
the demo day sense.

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It's a demo.

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At the time, the members of the parliament
in Taiwan refused to deliberate a cross-strait

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service trade agreement because they think
constitutionally Beijing is part of Taiwan.

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In any case they refuse to deliberate a statement,
a treaty.

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People occupied the parliament and did the
MPs work for them by basically deliberating

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line by line what the service trade pact entails.

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There's more than 20 different NGOs in all
the different streets around the parliament,

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in a non-violent way, just deliberating aspects
of this cross-strait service agreement.

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I was part of the movement that supported
the logistics and the ICT communication for

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this movement.

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It's called g0v.tw or just g0v.

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The idea of g0v is very simple.

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For any Taiwan government services that all
end in gov.tw, we just register this domain

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g0v.tw so that people, whenever they see a
government service or website that's not to

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the people's liking, they can just fork that
website and build a more interactive, open

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version that just changes the O to a zero
on your URL.

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It's very easy to discover.

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It solves the discoverability problem.

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Like for the legislation, legislative yuan
gov.tw, the corresponding shadow government

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is just ly.g0v.tw.

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It's very easy to remember.

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It's a very neat hack. [laughs]

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The first project of the g0v movement, back
in 2012, before I joined, was called budget.g0v.tw.

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It's essentially interactive platform that
shows a visualization of the national budget.

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Everybody can just look on the part, the specific
project that they are interested in, have

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a real-time discussion on the discussion forum
center on that budget item as the social object

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instead of on the budget as a whole.

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The idea is forking the government.

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Usually, the g0v projects are under a free
software license or really the Creative Commons

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Zero license, which is not a license.

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It's just a declaration of donation to the
public domain.

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The result is that when the state-level government,
at the end of 2014, want to incorporate this

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into the participatory budget program and
things, they don't have to ask anyone.

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They just take the g0v forked versions and
merge it back to the state-level governments.

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So far, there's like seven different cities
adopting this.

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As of this year, the national government also
merged this in.

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Today, in join.gov.tw, you can see all the
1,300 national projects and all its KPIs,

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its deliverables, and have a real-time discussion
with the career public servants in charge

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of that governmental project, essentially
bypassing the representative democratic system.

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It enables a real discussion.

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Why are there so many civic hackers in Taiwan,
who, during the Sunflower Movement, just a

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lot like me...I just talk to my clients that
I need to take a three-week leave because

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democracy needs me.

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There's hundreds of people who did that back
in 2014.

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Why is that?

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I'm 37 now.

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We're the first generation in Taiwan that
can actually do democracy after three decades

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of martial law, which was lifted in 1989,
around the time of personal computers.

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We only had our first presidential election
in 1996 which is about the year of the popularization

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of the World Wide Web.

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Internet and democracy, they're not two things.

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They're not two different branches of people.

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It's the same generation of people.

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It's the same thing in Taiwan.

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The advent of democracy and the advent of
Internet and direct democracy is the same

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time in Taiwan.

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We don't have 200 or 300 years of a representative
democracy tradition.

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When we had democracy, we had also the Internet.

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In Taiwan, when we see or when we talk about
free software, we translate it as [Mandarin]

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. It's always free as in freedom to assemble,
freedom of speech, freedom to express, and

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never free of cost.

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We know that freedom is never free of costs.

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Our parents' generation, our grandparents'
generation fought very hard to get those freedoms.

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It's up to us to use the software freedoms
to keep the society free.

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At the end of 2014 and after the Occupy, there's
many mayors, mayor candidates who were Occupy

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supporters or Occupyers themselves, who very
surprisingly found themselves elected mayors

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when they did not expect.

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It's something that also happen in Spain also
[laughs] and in many other Occupys in that

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time.

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At the time, the premier during the Occupy
resigned, saying, "I don't understand you

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people."

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He just resigned.

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A new premier, an engineer, said, "OK, so
from now on, crowdsourcing and open governance

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is just going to be the national direction."

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The Occupyers and us, the supporters of the
Occupys, the facilitators and the ICT experts,

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were then hired into the national government
in early 2015 to help designing systems to

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collaboratively solve issues, such as Uber,
at the time.

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Uber, in 2015, has entered Taiwan and operated
legally using rental cars and professional

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drivers for a while.

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In 2015, they also introduced a new line of
service called uberX.

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It is using unlicensed drivers and unlicensed
cars and without insurance.

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The PR idea of Uber at the time is to use
this meme, which is a virus of the mind, this

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meme called "sharing economy."

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This meme means very different thing to very
different people.

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For the Uber PR department at the time, it
means very specifically that code dispatch

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cars better than laws, so we obey code not
laws.

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It's very simple message that spreads around
the world.

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It's not just in Taiwan.

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It's like epidemic of the mind.

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People, after becoming a driver for a couple
weeks, maybe they feel that there's no protection,

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that they didn't actually earn that much.

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They quit driving for uberX, but during that
two weeks' time, just like the common flu,

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they would have spread through apps to their
passengers and to other drivers and to other

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passengers.

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It's impossible, actually, at the time, for
us to negotiate with an app or with a virus

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of the mind like the "sharing economy" because
it's in a different category.

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It's impossible to argue with the common flu
either.

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At the time, many state governments try use
Old World methods such as confiscating.

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In Paris, they confiscated office, confiscated
machines, put people to jail.

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Then the next morning, Uber still operates.

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It doesn't really work in the old governmental
methods.

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We thought about it.

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We thought that during the Occupy, where people
listen to each other's positions deeply and

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feel each other's feelings around the CSSTA,
maybe we can reuse some of that technique

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and to work on the Uber issue.

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Basically, we think that deliberation is a
vaccine of the mind.

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Once people have really felt and empathized
with different sides' positions and come up

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with common values, people become immune to
specific virus of the mind in the future.

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I promise to check the questions at this point.

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I'm just going to do it right now.

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There's 17 questions.

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I'll finish this section and then switch right
back to questions.

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A proper deliberation involves four different
stages.

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We used a system invented in Canada, in 2005.

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It's called the focused conversation method,
or FCM.

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It's known as the ORID method also because
it separates the discussion into four different

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stages.

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The first is objective or facts, where people
ask each other.

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Like the government publishes open data, all
we know about uberX.

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We also ask all the private sector and civil
society to donate data into this shared, fact-checked

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database.

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Once people check the facts on the timeline
and we can all agree with the facts, the various

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stakeholders then express their feelings.

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For the same fact, you may feel angry, and
I may feel happy.

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It's all OK.

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It's not until we checked everybody's feelings
that we find that there are some resonating

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feelings that people all feel as important
concerns to ideate on.

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After the facts, the feelings is the ideas.

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The best ideas are the ideas that takes care
of the most people's feelings.

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Once we uncover those ideas, we then translate
it into legalese.

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Using the old governmental method, the main
barrier is the language barrier.

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The professional public servants, the private
sector lobbyists, and the independent academics,

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and so on use a professional language, while
people on the street using a different language.

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Under this situation, when people say the
same thing but mean very different things,

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the facts and the feelings gets clouded.

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Ideas in this environment become ideologies.

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Ideologies are an even more potent virus of
mind that blinds people to new facts and to

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each other's feelings.

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After we get everybody on the same page, checking
the facts that by itself is important, we

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use a free software system under AGPL called
Pol.is.

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Pol.is is a so-called AI-powered conversation
that basically just provides a face to the

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crowd.

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We ask everybody to basically look at one
statement that their friends or just a random

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person on the Internet propose about their
feeling, their [Mandarin] something.

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I think that, or I feel that passenger liability
insurance is important.

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As you agree or disagree with the statements,
your avatar will move among your social media

00:17:39.970 --> 00:17:44.140
friends -- or you don't have to login -- among
well-known people on social media.

00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:48.710
You can discover that your friends and your
family actually think about this in a very

00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:49.710
different perspective.

00:17:49.710 --> 00:17:51.580
They are still your friends and family.

00:17:51.580 --> 00:17:53.480
You just didn't talk about this over dinner.

00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:59.299
It makes it difficult for people to antagonize,
to treat people with different viewpoints

00:17:59.299 --> 00:18:00.299
as enemies.

00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:06.090
Rather it enables people to say that OK, after
answering a few yes or no questions, I can

00:18:06.090 --> 00:18:07.580
also contribute my feelings.

00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:11.840
People compete on feelings that resonates
with the most number of people.

00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:18.730
We say if your ideas or if your feelings resonates
with a supermajority amount of people -- that

00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:23.340
is, across all the groups, every group has
more than majority agreeing with you -- then

00:18:23.340 --> 00:18:29.350
the feelings and proposals with the most resonance,
with the most consensus, we use that as the

00:18:29.350 --> 00:18:34.159
agenda to talk with the stakeholders, with
the taxi unions, with the Uber people and

00:18:34.159 --> 00:18:35.380
so on.

00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:40.159
In this way, we send the same URL to everybody,
and then spread it.

00:18:40.159 --> 00:18:45.320
One of the key interface design decisions
during a Pol.is discussion, unlike many other

00:18:45.320 --> 00:18:49.149
social media venues, is that you don't see
the reply button here.

00:18:49.149 --> 00:18:51.630
There is no reply.

00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:57.230
What we discovered is if you have reply, people
focus their energy on discrediting the person

00:18:57.230 --> 00:19:00.970
who posted a comment that they don't agree
with.

00:19:00.970 --> 00:19:04.420
Like Slido, Pol.is, basically, if you see
something that you don't agree with, your

00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:10.220
best recourse is to prepare something more
nuanced, that other people can agree with.

00:19:10.220 --> 00:19:14.629
After a few weeks, in all the Pol.is discussions,
what we see is that people recognize their

00:19:14.629 --> 00:19:19.539
differences in those divisive statements,
but they don't spend more time on it.

00:19:19.539 --> 00:19:25.240
People instead spend a lot of time refining
the nuanced consensus, so that people can

00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.639
resonate, kind of compete, with the most resonance
across the different groups.

00:19:29.639 --> 00:19:33.639
We use a live consultation method, where all
the stakeholders are invited.

00:19:33.639 --> 00:19:38.590
The taxi company, Uber, union people, and
so on, the co-ops and so on.

00:19:38.590 --> 00:19:44.279
We just checked with them all the agenda set
by this Pol.is conversation, one by one.

00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:45.539
Saying, "Do you agree?

00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:46.559
If you don't, why?

00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:47.789
If you do, why?"

00:19:47.789 --> 00:19:51.850
Because it's live streamed, with thousands
of people watching, people become bound to

00:19:51.850 --> 00:19:53.299
whatever they have said.

00:19:53.299 --> 00:19:58.509
Uber, at the time, said, "OK, so we work with
our drivers, to help them obtain a professional

00:19:58.509 --> 00:19:59.509
driver's license."

00:19:59.509 --> 00:20:04.730
They're bound by the words they spoke at this
live stream meeting.

00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:09.509
After this, we then worked on ratifying the
new what we call the diversification of taxi.

00:20:09.509 --> 00:20:14.580
One of the highest score is actually contributed
by the free software community, by Irvin Chen,

00:20:14.580 --> 00:20:16.690
from the Mozilla community here.

00:20:16.690 --> 00:20:21.149
Who said that we should take this opportunity
to upgrade the taxi regulations, so that the

00:20:21.149 --> 00:20:25.850
best practices from Uber, for example, taxi
doesn't have to be painted yellow, and there's

00:20:25.850 --> 00:20:31.129
the two-way rating system, and so on, could
be used to facilitate better taxi qualities

00:20:31.129 --> 00:20:32.129
here in Taiwan.

00:20:32.129 --> 00:20:38.820
Led by that consensus and six other consensus
items, we then created a law so that now Uber

00:20:38.820 --> 00:20:43.890
is operating legally in Taiwan, but only with
registered driver's licensed cars.

00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:49.570
You also get email about your rides, insurance,
every Uber ride, and you can also call taxi

00:20:49.570 --> 00:20:52.440
with Uber, and vice versa.

00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:58.139
This is what we call a multi-stakeholder consultation,
after which people's consensus set the agenda

00:20:58.139 --> 00:21:00.429
for the politicians to talk about.

00:21:00.429 --> 00:21:06.690
Let's take some questions.

00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:14.830
There's 13 people, I think, 15 now, would
like to know, "How can we help other governments

00:21:14.830 --> 00:21:16.320
enable open standards?"

00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:18.860
This is an excellent question.

00:21:18.860 --> 00:21:27.539
In Taiwan, we have this idea of the GDSP,
or the Government Digital Service Principal.

00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:33.909
It is modeled, loosely, after the Government
Digital Service in the UK, who also published

00:21:33.909 --> 00:21:36.460
their digital standards.

00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:42.220
The GDS is a thought leader in this area,
and they pioneered a lot of digital standards

00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:47.769
that are not just open, as in open source,
or open as in open protocol, or format, but

00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:51.950
open as in open innovation, where people,
everybody can contribute.

00:21:51.950 --> 00:21:59.350
One of their key principles is being user-centric,
which we here expanded in Taiwan, meaning

00:21:59.350 --> 00:22:05.940
that the users here not only include citizens
but also people working in the front line

00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:07.649
in the public service.

00:22:07.649 --> 00:22:14.379
The second thing that the UK GDS also advocates
is that when you build a digital service,

00:22:14.379 --> 00:22:18.759
you need not to only test with people, and
the frontline staff, but also test with the

00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.909
ministry and the cabinet from the beginning
to the end.

00:22:21.909 --> 00:22:27.479
Ultimately, they're accountable for this digital
service, and they can then solicit more idea

00:22:27.479 --> 00:22:30.749
of innovation from this service.

00:22:30.749 --> 00:22:38.619
We adopted this spirit, and also call for
leader to be basically cross-disciplinary.

00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:46.600
I think the person who asked this question
is maybe most interested in our GDSP number

00:22:46.600 --> 00:22:54.379
eight, which says, "Open first," basically,
open is the priority.

00:22:54.379 --> 00:23:02.499
To reduce the time spent on developing services,
and the total cost of ownership, open should

00:23:02.499 --> 00:23:07.309
be the foremost principal when designing and
building services.

00:23:07.309 --> 00:23:14.979
By open we mean specifically that all the
machine-to-machine data built by this system

00:23:14.979 --> 00:23:20.009
need to be available under an open license,
most commonly the Creative Comments Attribution

00:23:20.009 --> 00:23:25.840
4.0 license, which is the default license
for all the ICT systems built in Taiwan.

00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:28.970
Also, we prioritize open source.

00:23:28.970 --> 00:23:35.559
If the service component reuses existing open
source components, we recommend people to

00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:43.869
use Linux Foundation's SPDX, or S-P-D-X, manifest
to solve this warranty issue for the system

00:23:43.869 --> 00:23:45.070
integrators.

00:23:45.070 --> 00:23:51.279
Once they declare their reusable free software
components under SPDX, the warranty in the

00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:55.029
legal perspective has a clear delineation.

00:23:55.029 --> 00:24:00.850
By this, we want to encourage people to innovate
based on what the government has delivered,

00:24:00.850 --> 00:24:05.720
and improve on existing government services
by forking the government, occasionally getting

00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:09.019
it right, and getting governments merging
it back.

00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:14.289
Not only open data and open source, we also
say that it need to conform with open standards,

00:24:14.289 --> 00:24:19.899
so that it could be reused and also, it builds
on common API and common components.

00:24:19.899 --> 00:24:25.090
All this is so that we can quickly reiterate
and improve the services.

00:24:25.090 --> 00:24:31.979
We have a support group of all the governments
who endorse this standard.

00:24:31.979 --> 00:24:37.200
It's called Digital Nations, and previously
known as Digital Five, or Digital Seven, depending

00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.359
on the number of people in it.

00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:41.149
We have a chat channel.

00:24:41.149 --> 00:24:43.759
We share GitHub repositories.

00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:51.340
We communicate very regularly, so that the
governments who embrace open by default have

00:24:51.340 --> 00:24:52.799
this venue.

00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:00.029
I think our next meeting is Forward 50, in
Ottawa in Canada this November.

00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:04.250
All the governments are solving very much
similar issues.

00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:09.280
All the components that we deliver, it's not
just for improvement of our citizens.

00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:14.369
Also, offering it, so that it could be reused
by the government and people building their

00:25:14.369 --> 00:25:18.460
own self-governance system, not necessarily
state government or representative governments

00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:19.870
worldwide.

00:25:19.870 --> 00:25:26.130
The short answer to this is to develop and
adhere to a clear government digital service

00:25:26.130 --> 00:25:29.029
principle, to publish and circulate this widely.

00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:34.210
To encourage this in the procurement laws,
and to encourage this in the accountability,

00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:38.489
in the auditing laws, in the statistics laws,
which we all have done.

00:25:38.489 --> 00:25:43.739
Then participate internationally in support
groups in the democratic and open governance

00:25:43.739 --> 00:25:48.909
governments and basically share these best
practice, or at least better practices, as

00:25:48.909 --> 00:25:50.419
open toolkits.

00:25:50.419 --> 00:25:54.029
That's the thing that we're doing.

00:25:54.029 --> 00:26:00.889
12 people would like me to answer, "What do
I wish from Debian?"

00:26:00.889 --> 00:26:05.179
I wish that Debian would live long and prosper.

00:26:05.179 --> 00:26:07.220
[laughs]

00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.260
[applause]

00:26:09.260 --> 00:26:17.659
Really, along with other large endeavors,
like the Mozilla Foundation, and the Linux

00:26:17.659 --> 00:26:23.769
Foundation, which I just mentioned, Wikimedia
Foundation, you folks are the foundation upon

00:26:23.769 --> 00:26:29.460
which that we are advocating to the representative
democratic system that, "Hey there is some

00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:34.799
merit in this kind of radical transparency,
and that kind of radical participation."

00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:41.119
As a conservative anarchist minister, I have
three conditions going into cabinet.

00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:47.610
The first is that I don't issue a command
to anyone, nor do I take a command.

00:26:47.610 --> 00:26:50.250
Everything is by voluntary association.

00:26:50.250 --> 00:26:56.190
This is straight from the Debian Constitution,
where, by constitution, nobody can really

00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:59.580
be forced into doing any non-voluntary work.

00:26:59.580 --> 00:27:05.239
The second one is that I get to work anywhere
on the planet, and it still counts as working.

00:27:05.239 --> 00:27:10.629
It's teleworking, and it also enabled a lot
of e-government imperatives, when people discovered

00:27:10.629 --> 00:27:14.559
that by a paper-based delivery they can't
really reach me.

00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.159
They can reach me after a week or so.

00:27:17.159 --> 00:27:20.379
It is far easier if you just use email.

00:27:20.379 --> 00:27:29.600
The third thing, also very important, is that
when I develop those voluntary co-creation

00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:33.950
methodologies, it is important for me to be
radically transparent.

00:27:33.950 --> 00:27:40.719
By radical transparency I mean not just meeting
with lobbyists and journalists, are all published

00:27:40.719 --> 00:27:46.080
online, even internal meetings that I chair,
we also publish everything as a transcript

00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:48.739
two weeks after every internal meeting.

00:27:48.739 --> 00:27:54.999
It looks like this, it's also using a free
software system, called SayIt developed by,

00:27:54.999 --> 00:27:58.279
I think, mySociety, in the UK.

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:04.080
When David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the
time, come to a lobby and have a conversation,

00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:07.629
not only is our discussion on the record,
it's on 360 Record.

00:28:07.629 --> 00:28:11.859
We can put it on VR or Cardboard or something,
and relive the conversation.

00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:15.869
[laughs] Every utterance has a permanent URL.

00:28:15.869 --> 00:28:20.710
You can get full accountability of who said
what, where.

00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:25.370
This is important for the government service,
because the public servants in this situation

00:28:25.370 --> 00:28:30.289
they become very innovative, contrary to popular
belief.

00:28:30.289 --> 00:28:35.360
Previously, when something gets right, and
people like it, the minister always takes

00:28:35.360 --> 00:28:39.739
all the credit, and if something gets wrong,
it's always the career public servants who

00:28:39.739 --> 00:28:45.509
didn't execute well, or something and the
netizens has a way to blame the people in

00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:47.179
charge for it.

00:28:47.179 --> 00:28:50.139
In that situation, there is no motivation
for them to innovate.

00:28:50.139 --> 00:28:55.649
Now, with this radically transparent system,
not only is the civil society more understanding

00:28:55.649 --> 00:29:02.359
of the context before making a decision, but
also all the credit gets shared to the actual

00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.460
career public servants who proposed something
innovative in the first place.

00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:10.489
If anything goes wrong, well, because as far
as I know, I'm the only minister in the world

00:29:10.489 --> 00:29:13.509
doing this, it's all Audrey's fault.

00:29:13.509 --> 00:29:17.600
I can absorb that blame, while people share
the credit.

00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:23.039
We get a lot of very innovative ideas, frankly,
from the public service, such as adopting

00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.059
a thoroughly free software system called sandstorm.io
for our entire public service, in all the

00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:33.139
different branches of government, not just
the administration.

00:29:33.139 --> 00:29:37.070
We use only free software on this sandstorm.io
system.

00:29:37.070 --> 00:29:42.720
Davros replaces Dropbox, EtherCalc replaces
Google Spreadsheet, Etherpad replaces Google

00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.539
Doc, Wekan replaces Trello, and there's also
Rocket.Chat.

00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:49.090
I'm sure you know the other tools that the
free software people uses.

00:29:49.090 --> 00:29:54.570
Basically, we say any public servants, as
long as they have a gov.tw email address,

00:29:54.570 --> 00:29:58.840
can enjoy this for free, and even develop
new applications on it, because it's cyber

00:29:58.840 --> 00:30:00.599
security hardened.

00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.460
We ask our best white hat hackers to attack
it, and they filed a few CVEs, so that we're

00:30:06.460 --> 00:30:10.309
[laughs] reasonably sure that it's very secure
now, so that people can develop applications

00:30:10.309 --> 00:30:16.149
by themselves, which is free software, and
planning travels together, ordering lunch

00:30:16.149 --> 00:30:18.289
boxes together.

00:30:18.289 --> 00:30:22.190
Unleash innovation within the government,
because they know that this system can absorb

00:30:22.190 --> 00:30:26.629
the cybersecurity risk, and I can absorb the
political risk.

00:30:26.629 --> 00:30:32.309
17 people would like to know, "It's good that
you discovered Debian, and what makes it interesting

00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:34.539
at such a young age, do you run Debian yourself?

00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:36.809
Have you contributed to Debian?"

00:30:36.809 --> 00:30:45.309
Personally, my desktop environment when I
started learning -- I think it's around 1999

00:30:45.309 --> 00:30:48.799
-- system-level programming -- I'm sorry -- has
always been FreeBSD.

00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:49.869
[laughs]

00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:54.970
I've never actually...I used the Debian compatibility
layer.

00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:57.590
I don't know whether that counts or not.

00:30:57.590 --> 00:31:03.580
[laughs] I've always been a FreeBSD developer
and contributed to also driver support in

00:31:03.580 --> 00:31:04.580
FreeBSD.

00:31:04.580 --> 00:31:10.840
Also, most of my contributions in the Perl
community and in OpenFoundry, here in Taiwan,

00:31:10.840 --> 00:31:15.350
in early 2000s, were first committed to the
FreeBSD port system.

00:31:15.350 --> 00:31:16.820
It's a different culture.

00:31:16.820 --> 00:31:17.909
It's not copyleft.

00:31:17.909 --> 00:31:18.909
It's not copyright.

00:31:18.909 --> 00:31:19.909
It's copy center.

00:31:19.909 --> 00:31:22.299
You go to the copy center and make many copies.

00:31:22.299 --> 00:31:26.179
That's a [laughs] very permissive [laughs]
community.

00:31:26.179 --> 00:31:29.999
That's my primary community, the FreeBSD community.

00:31:29.999 --> 00:31:37.740
There's various efforts within Debian to reconcile
with, for example, the module signing system.

00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:44.679
I piloted the module signing system in CPAN,
in the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network.

00:31:44.679 --> 00:31:47.500
There's a lot of packaging issues and so on.

00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:49.999
I basically chime in from here to there.

00:31:49.999 --> 00:31:56.809
I did not participate in the Debian democracy,
but I really admired from afar, in the FreeBSD

00:31:56.809 --> 00:31:57.840
camp.

00:31:57.840 --> 00:31:58.869
[laughs]

00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:01.610
"Does Taiwan has an open-source strategy?"

00:32:01.610 --> 00:32:02.610
Yes.

00:32:02.610 --> 00:32:04.850
I'm glad you asked.

00:32:04.850 --> 00:32:05.880
It's called DIGI+.

00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:11.839
I don't know how much of this is translated
into English.

00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.700
Oh, all of it.

00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:14.700
It's good.

00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:22.960
If you go to smart.taiwan.gov.tw...We tend
to have one web page for each major government

00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:23.960
policies.

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:25.229
There's smart.taiwan.gov.tw.

00:32:25.229 --> 00:32:27.509
There's AI Taiwan.

00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:28.940
There's bio Taiwan.

00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:35.239
There's also CI Taiwan -- I think that's not
yet translated -- where the CI stands for

00:32:35.239 --> 00:32:42.690
civil IoT, which is the shared open data and
also open algorithm platform for all the different

00:32:42.690 --> 00:32:48.129
environmental data aggregated in a supercomputing
center that combines the people's, the g0v

00:32:48.129 --> 00:32:54.229
site of air sensors and also the government
site of government sensors.

00:32:54.229 --> 00:33:00.330
We can all talk with the same fact-based or
evidence-based policy-making process.

00:33:00.330 --> 00:33:07.389
I encourage you to check out Smart Taiwan
and also links to Asia Silicon Valley.

00:33:07.389 --> 00:33:13.089
When we talk about open society here and also
about the education, like interdisciplinary

00:33:13.089 --> 00:33:18.869
digital talents, in the DIGI+ plan, we specifically
said especially in the basic education level,

00:33:18.869 --> 00:33:20.940
that is to say K-12 level...

00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:26.059
Also because in the next five years all the
college-level students also need to learn

00:33:26.059 --> 00:33:34.379
computational thinking and programming, half
of it, I think, by the year 2021 or something.

00:33:34.379 --> 00:33:37.690
All of it needs to be based on free software.

00:33:37.690 --> 00:33:43.100
If the student graduates and joins the private
sector and choose to use proprietary software,

00:33:43.100 --> 00:33:44.429
that is their choice.

00:33:44.429 --> 00:33:48.129
Of course, the government can't do much about
it, but while they're still children, while

00:33:48.129 --> 00:33:54.099
they're still in the schools, it is very important
for us to not let the children or the students

00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:56.799
to be subject to vendor lock-in.

00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.529
By the time they graduate, maybe the vendor
has already moved somewhere else.

00:34:00.529 --> 00:34:02.840
Maybe the vendor lose interest in that product
line.

00:34:02.840 --> 00:34:04.599
We see a lot of that dynamic.

00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:11.219
At least in the education system, we're very
firm that we prefer free software for education.

00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:15.060
When teaching computational thinking, when
teaching artificial intelligence, when teaching

00:34:15.060 --> 00:34:22.699
all those different DIGI+ powered smart machinery,
green energy technology, and so on, we prefer

00:34:22.699 --> 00:34:25.239
free software when it's in the school.

00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:32.030
In the DIGI+, there is a strategy to raise
awareness and have talents in school.

00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:41.920
There's also twoss.io, I think -- I hope I
remember this right -- which is not yet translated

00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:44.580
in English.

00:34:44.580 --> 00:34:46.389
it's somewhat translated to English.

00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:54.550
In any case, what this tries to do is basically
by getting people sufficient education materials,

00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:59.750
so people working on any level of education
can point to existing communities and introduce

00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:02.090
their students to such community.

00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:08.050
Even people working in like city-level government
or national-level government can also point

00:35:08.050 --> 00:35:17.100
to the success cases of incorporating PostgreSQL
or OpenStack or Docker Ecosystem and/or TensorFlow

00:35:17.100 --> 00:35:20.910
or whatever and which is the success story.

00:35:20.910 --> 00:35:23.450
You're replacing proprietary systems.

00:35:23.450 --> 00:35:25.230
It's not about procurement anymore.

00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:29.890
We already change our procurement regulations
and the government digital service principle.

00:35:29.890 --> 00:35:35.910
All that people need now is a boost of confidence
of [Mandarin] , basically, [laughs] by people

00:35:35.910 --> 00:35:39.530
keep telling them it's OK to use free software.

00:35:39.530 --> 00:35:41.410
This is the twoss.io.

00:35:41.410 --> 00:35:46.510
If you find anything wrong with it or anything
you can contribute, please feel free to let

00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:48.260
us know in twoss.

00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:54.330
"Why is Taiwan so restrictive on Internet
access, captive portals, register with ID

00:35:54.330 --> 00:35:56.500
for iTaiwan WiFi access, etc.?

00:35:56.500 --> 00:36:00.040
Is there the reason, bad experiences or not?"

00:36:00.040 --> 00:36:07.370
The reason is usually cited as "cybersecurity,"
but it is not a very strong reason.

00:36:07.370 --> 00:36:13.060
We are actively looking, actually, like in
the Taiwan high-speed rails, to relax the

00:36:13.060 --> 00:36:15.580
captive portal.

00:36:15.580 --> 00:36:21.070
Especially when you're on a high-speed moving
train, it is very difficult to actually resume

00:36:21.070 --> 00:36:27.670
from hotspot to hotspots if you need to go
through like five or three screens to register.

00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:32.940
That's the first place where we will relax
this captive portal thing.

00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:39.560
Once this is done and piloted and proven that
it really doesn't need two more cybersecurity

00:36:39.560 --> 00:36:43.700
guards, that we can put other cybersecurity
guards elsewhere on the stack, not necessarily

00:36:43.700 --> 00:36:51.000
on the personal identification level, then
we will also relax the internal.

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:56.401
Within the government agencies, we often provide
two WiFis, one for employees of the government

00:36:56.401 --> 00:36:59.540
and one called iTaiwan, also for visitors.

00:36:59.540 --> 00:37:03.780
The visitor WiFi, we then will also look to
relax more.

00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:10.600
That's because those two venues, in the high-speed
rails and also in visitors to government agencies,

00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:13.560
you already did your registration somewhere
else.

00:37:13.560 --> 00:37:17.220
We don't physically actually need you to register
again.

00:37:17.220 --> 00:37:23.020
I'm less sure about the city-level public
WiFi, like TPE-Free, or other city-level WiFi

00:37:23.020 --> 00:37:25.510
because they have a certain level of autonomy.

00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:27.970
We don't actually dictate what they do.

00:37:27.970 --> 00:37:35.720
We just pilot this relaxed login portal thing
and also establish corresponding cybersecurity

00:37:35.720 --> 00:37:36.720
rules.

00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:39.510
Maybe the city-level people will also get
enlightened.

00:37:39.510 --> 00:37:41.130
We'll see.

00:37:41.130 --> 00:37:46.079
There's eleven people who want to know, "Is
it possible to be a citizen in Taiwan and

00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:49.340
interact fully with the government without
using any proprietary software?"

00:37:49.340 --> 00:37:53.280
I'm glad you asked because that's one of the
cases that I'd like to show.

00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:54.280
[laughs]

00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:59.840
It used to be very, very difficult.

00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:09.110
Just last May actually, there was a petition
that talks explicitly about it, very explicit.

00:38:09.110 --> 00:38:15.730
[laughs] Last May, there was an e-petition
or a national e-petition system.

00:38:15.730 --> 00:38:20.590
After 5,000 people participate online...You
can use email or SMS.

00:38:20.590 --> 00:38:22.860
It's not a real-name basis.

00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:29.600
Basically, after 5,000 people counter-signed
a petition, the government is obliged to respond

00:38:29.600 --> 00:38:30.600
to it.

00:38:30.600 --> 00:38:37.170
This petition is by this user experience designer
卓志遠, which says that our tax filing

00:38:37.170 --> 00:38:40.970
system is explosively hostile to users.

00:38:40.970 --> 00:38:44.680
It's negative energy in that petition.

00:38:44.680 --> 00:38:48.980
There's more negative energy in the body,
which I will spare you the quote.

00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:54.960
Basically, at the time, about 80 percent of
comments in that petition discussion area

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.390
is very negative.

00:38:56.390 --> 00:38:59.640
It caused for the resignation of the minister
of finance.

00:38:59.640 --> 00:39:04.660
It caused...there's a lot of accusations to
the vendors who provide the system, and all

00:39:04.660 --> 00:39:11.770
because in Windows there is a proprietary
Windows-based application for tax filing.

00:39:11.770 --> 00:39:17.550
For Linux and for Mac and basically non-Windows
systems, there is a Java applet.

00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:24.160
Because last year Oracle Inc. deprecated Java
applets, the user experience become very,

00:39:24.160 --> 00:39:25.160
very bad.

00:39:25.160 --> 00:39:27.790
People will see that "Please wait.

00:39:27.790 --> 00:39:30.440
It's still installing some applet components."

00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.870
Because the pop-up is by default blocked,
so nothing happens.

00:39:34.870 --> 00:39:37.170
After 40 minutes, people are still waiting.

00:39:37.170 --> 00:39:40.160
It really is very, very difficult to use.

00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:46.120
After the e-petition, basically there's a
participation officer team in each ministry.

00:39:46.120 --> 00:39:49.210
Each participation office, or POs, is responsible.

00:39:49.210 --> 00:39:54.040
Just like media officer who talk to journalists
or a parliamentary officer who talk to MPs,

00:39:54.040 --> 00:39:57.390
POs talk to such emergent petitions.

00:39:57.390 --> 00:40:03.760
By basically saying, I think, not only very
quick, like 36 hours after this petition,

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:09.410
our PO 楊金亨 just posted publicly that
everybody who complained about our tax filing

00:40:09.410 --> 00:40:15.910
experience on non-Windows systems is cordially
invited to a co-creation workshop, some Friday,

00:40:15.910 --> 00:40:18.050
in the Ministry of finance.

00:40:18.050 --> 00:40:22.800
This is very interesting because just by proposing
this invitation...Previously, like 80 percent

00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.750
of people were just flaming.

00:40:24.750 --> 00:40:27.560
20 percent of people were saying, "Well, we're
using Windows.

00:40:27.560 --> 00:40:28.750
It works kind of OK."

00:40:28.750 --> 00:40:31.440
Nobody really took heed to them.

00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:36.420
After this invitation is sent, 80 percent
of people started proposing useful suggestions,

00:40:36.420 --> 00:40:37.820
useful recommendations.

00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:43.750
Only less than 20 percent still remained trolling
or flaming people, but people don't pay attention

00:40:43.750 --> 00:40:44.960
to them anymore.

00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:50.550
Basically, what we did was inviting the trolls,
who turns out to be not trolls.

00:40:50.550 --> 00:40:52.890
They were just fed up with the tax filing
system.

00:40:52.890 --> 00:40:55.310
They had to vent their feelings.

00:40:55.310 --> 00:40:59.140
After they vent their feelings, we all then
solicit ideas from them.

00:40:59.140 --> 00:41:01.760
People who can make it to Taipei, make it
to Taipei.

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:06.240
Otherwise, people can still participate using
live-streaming.

00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:11.690
One of the key thing here is radical transparency
and also accountability, meaning that people

00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:19.450
who say that the words are explosively crowded,
we just put that, post it as words are explosively

00:41:19.450 --> 00:41:24.470
crowded, that it is so brilliantly written
that people are confused.

00:41:24.470 --> 00:41:26.360
Then we just post it.

00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:31.810
People say instead of designing a system makes
people feel better, people don't feel good

00:41:31.810 --> 00:41:36.590
at all when they think about filing taxes,
so we should shorten the experience instead

00:41:36.590 --> 00:41:39.930
of trying to make people feel better and so
on.

00:41:39.930 --> 00:41:45.810
Basically, people who proposed such ideations
online, we just use service design methodologies

00:41:45.810 --> 00:41:51.450
and hold five co-creation workshops with all
the different stakeholders involved in the

00:41:51.450 --> 00:41:53.490
tax filing experience.

00:41:53.490 --> 00:41:59.380
This year, the tax filing experience for non-Windows
systems is entirely HTML5-based.

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:02.160
It adheres to the open standards.

00:42:02.160 --> 00:42:09.350
People can just using any platform that can
run a browser to access the tax filing system.

00:42:09.350 --> 00:42:16.260
The short answer to this question is that
it has become more and more possible while

00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:25.160
we translate or transform existing desktop-oriented
or Windows-specific or Java applets into web-based

00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:26.160
situations.

00:42:26.160 --> 00:42:32.620
Now, if you insist that all the JavaScript
libraries and CSS libraries that government

00:42:32.620 --> 00:42:38.010
system use has also to be open source or free
software, that would take a little bit more

00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:39.010
time.

00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:44.490
It will need the current generation of system
to be wholly replaced by post-government digital

00:42:44.490 --> 00:42:47.310
service principle, post-GDSP, systems.

00:42:47.310 --> 00:42:51.210
We are focusing on reducing the load on the
client side first.

00:42:51.210 --> 00:42:57.050
At the time, I think you can complete most
of the interactions of the governmental issues

00:42:57.050 --> 00:43:02.210
like filing taxes and so on if you're OK with
using a free software browser, but there's

00:43:02.210 --> 00:43:04.570
still some proprietary JavaScript code.

00:43:04.570 --> 00:43:07.660
This is the compromise situation we're in
at the moment.

00:43:07.660 --> 00:43:12.590
With the rollout of GDSP, we're also looking
to make the JavaScript and CSS and also the

00:43:12.590 --> 00:43:18.640
backend systems more non-proprietary.

00:43:18.640 --> 00:43:26.370
Anonymous would like to know the shared objects
in the tax filing plugin is not open source.

00:43:26.370 --> 00:43:27.370
Why?

00:43:27.370 --> 00:43:33.720
Because the copyright belongs to, I think,
the vendor Chunghwa Telecom.

00:43:33.720 --> 00:43:41.690
Back when we signed the agreement with the
Chunghwa Telecom, the GDSP was not in effect.

00:43:41.690 --> 00:43:47.170
The contract, basically, attributed the copyright
to the vendor, who only conferred usage right

00:43:47.170 --> 00:43:48.730
to the government and the citizens.

00:43:48.730 --> 00:43:51.220
This is a mistake that we will not repeat.

00:43:51.220 --> 00:43:57.190
At the moment, we don't have the legal recourse
for the current generation of plugin systems

00:43:57.190 --> 00:43:59.540
to be relicensed as free software.

00:43:59.540 --> 00:44:00.540
I tried.

00:44:00.540 --> 00:44:01.540
[laughs]

00:44:01.540 --> 00:44:07.760
The easiest way is just for the next version
of identification methods, such as the national

00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.720
healthcare card, which, by the way, is currently
in public consultation.

00:44:11.720 --> 00:44:20.930
If you want to contribute, like you demand
free software stack for the entire Medicare

00:44:20.930 --> 00:44:27.380
system, please feel free to go to join.gov.tw,
where we are now asking for consultation on

00:44:27.380 --> 00:44:34.360
people who are looking to virtualize their
universal Medicare card and/or to use NFC-based

00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:36.170
authentication.

00:44:36.170 --> 00:44:41.680
We want to know about people's preference
when it comes to the technology, to the regulations,

00:44:41.680 --> 00:44:45.020
as well as to the total cost of ownership,
and also of usage.

00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:51.670
If you feel strongly about it, please do contribute
online on Join platform, so that we can say

00:44:51.670 --> 00:44:56.690
to the people writing the contracts that people
really feel that it is very important for

00:44:56.690 --> 00:45:01.650
our next-generation authentication methods
to be nonproprietary.

00:45:01.650 --> 00:45:07.110
Eight people would like to know, "What is
your opinion on e-commerce application refusing

00:45:07.110 --> 00:45:12.690
to operating on restriction-free devices like
rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

00:45:12.690 --> 00:45:14.330
Is it fair?"

00:45:14.330 --> 00:45:22.330
Mostly, I think they do this with the call
to "fraud prevention."

00:45:22.330 --> 00:45:27.030
[laughs] It's not about fairness.

00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:33.620
I think it is about the choice or the freedom
of choice or the liberty of users.

00:45:33.620 --> 00:45:38.800
The reason why GDSP prefers free software
is because when it comes to healthcare or

00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.610
tax filing, there really is no choice.

00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:47.250
To be a citizen in Taiwan, you have to go
through some government-sponsored API endpoints

00:45:47.250 --> 00:45:51.390
to produce some government-sponsored form
data and so on.

00:45:51.390 --> 00:45:58.160
Because there is no choice, we really need
to be open so that people can hold us to account

00:45:58.160 --> 00:46:02.140
to be more transparent and also innovate on
existing solutions.

00:46:02.140 --> 00:46:07.220
For e-commerce applications where there are
no de facto monopolies, when people still

00:46:07.220 --> 00:46:14.070
have a choice, the government, at the moment,
does not take a stance against the e-commerce

00:46:14.070 --> 00:46:21.200
apps who uses fraud detection or prevention
methods that result in incompatibility with

00:46:21.200 --> 00:46:24.980
rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

00:46:24.980 --> 00:46:32.030
I think one of the possible direction out
of this dilemma is to basically talk to people

00:46:32.030 --> 00:46:38.570
who work on "fraud prevention," just like
how we talked with the high-speed rails and

00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:44.310
the government agencies providing iTaiwan
software and WiFi for free.

00:46:44.310 --> 00:46:49.410
We basically said, "You can do your fraud
prevention or cybersecurity on another layer

00:46:49.410 --> 00:46:55.010
in this system and not in the particular layer
of requiring a captive portal and the MAC

00:46:55.010 --> 00:46:58.820
address, which is very easy to spoof anyway."

00:46:58.820 --> 00:47:06.260
I think just by talking to people like this,
or we talk to people who advocate copyright

00:47:06.260 --> 00:47:08.740
protection through blocking of the Internet.

00:47:08.740 --> 00:47:13.220
We say with IPv6, it's getting more and more
impossible.

00:47:13.220 --> 00:47:19.480
Watermarking or real-time watermarking methodologies,
it infringes on the consumers' or customers'

00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:21.100
experience is less.

00:47:21.100 --> 00:47:26.270
It is actually a better solution overall than
just banning entire websites.

00:47:26.270 --> 00:47:27.740
People have legitimate interest.

00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:29.580
There are legitimate stakes.

00:47:29.580 --> 00:47:35.870
As I said, often we think of it as like a
tug of war, but in many different cases, it

00:47:35.870 --> 00:47:40.700
is possible actually with some what we call
social innovation, an innovation that basically

00:47:40.700 --> 00:47:45.640
takes care of all the different sides of interest
and leaves nobody worse off.

00:47:45.640 --> 00:47:53.700
I would encourage people who feel strongly
about it to contact your local, friendly e-commerce

00:47:53.700 --> 00:48:00.700
association like [Mandarin] , who does have
a forum to talk about things like this.

00:48:00.700 --> 00:48:07.060
We use that forum to talk about fraud detection
and prevention of people selling counterfeit

00:48:07.060 --> 00:48:10.080
goods on Facebook to pretty good effect.

00:48:10.080 --> 00:48:14.350
I would also encourage you to contact your
local association about it.

00:48:14.350 --> 00:48:19.910
"Can we see any legislator supporting free
software in the government movement, like

00:48:19.910 --> 00:48:23.700
Public Money, Public Code from the EFF?"

00:48:23.700 --> 00:48:33.000
In Taiwan, when you see this government, the
GDSP, we already say this.

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:34.550
This is public code.

00:48:34.550 --> 00:48:36.270
This is open data.

00:48:36.270 --> 00:48:41.580
This is open standards and also common APIs.

00:48:41.580 --> 00:48:49.210
We used also a Linux Foundation project called
OAS 3.0, which was Swagger, to state that

00:48:49.210 --> 00:48:53.460
all the different systems built, as long as
it has a machine-to-machine component, need

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:57.520
to adhere to this machine-to-machine open
API specification.

00:48:57.520 --> 00:49:05.500
The reason why we put an equal amount of attention
on the source code license versus the machine-to-machine

00:49:05.500 --> 00:49:09.930
integration is that if we only talk about
public code or the license, it is very often

00:49:09.930 --> 00:49:15.440
that a system integrator will deliver something
that is technically free software, but it

00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:22.130
depends on, for example, expensive Oracle
systems or even more expensive DB2 systems.

00:49:22.130 --> 00:49:28.220
That basically still restricts the reuse across
different ministries and agencies.

00:49:28.220 --> 00:49:33.840
By saying for all the import and export, for
all the batch-level access, by basically treating

00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:39.030
machine-to-machine accessibility the same
way we treat universal access, like for blind

00:49:39.030 --> 00:49:40.030
people...

00:49:40.030 --> 00:49:44.660
We basically say while you may still depend
on Oracle or DB2 at a point, the next vendor

00:49:44.660 --> 00:49:51.380
can just build on your API and even batch
export what's in this public money-paid database

00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:56.310
and rebuild a service without depending on
any proprietary technological stack.

00:49:56.310 --> 00:50:01.770
I would argue that the freedom of portability
is as important as freedom to fork and freedom

00:50:01.770 --> 00:50:02.770
to reuse.

00:50:02.770 --> 00:50:04.690
Both are of course very important.

00:50:04.690 --> 00:50:12.300
Constitutionally, I am not supposed to speculate
on legislators, but [laughs] there is various

00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:18.920
younger legislators in all the different parties
who are also interested in this area.

00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:24.570
Is there any chance, eight people would like
to know, that I can urge deans of higher education

00:50:24.570 --> 00:50:28.550
facilities like NCTU to deploy IP version
6.

00:50:28.550 --> 00:50:32.410
It's a bootstrapping problem, isn't it? [laughs]

00:50:32.410 --> 00:50:40.630
This year, we see a surge of IPv6 adoption,
actually, after TWNIC changed hands and [laughs]

00:50:40.630 --> 00:50:44.550
embrace a very IPv6-first roadmap.

00:50:44.550 --> 00:50:50.230
We see, for example, Chunghwa Telecom has
drastically increased the IPv6 connectivity

00:50:50.230 --> 00:50:52.220
of their mobile clients.

00:50:52.220 --> 00:50:58.880
We also see other telecoms and other peering
institutions and ISPs starting to adopt this

00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:00.060
trend.

00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:06.310
Once there's sufficient amount of people using
the clients that are IPv6-enabled and even

00:51:06.310 --> 00:51:12.460
IPv6-preferred, there will be sufficient pressure
then for the service providers to provide

00:51:12.460 --> 00:51:16.950
as good, if not better, service over IPv6.

00:51:16.950 --> 00:51:18.120
I feel your QQ.

00:51:18.120 --> 00:51:23.850
I help you, your QQ. [laughs] 幫 QQ, right?

00:51:23.850 --> 00:51:28.810
I think really, it is up to the students,
the clients, and the users of the Internet,

00:51:28.810 --> 00:51:35.400
the last-mile providers to first build a useful
and usable IPv6 environment before we can

00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.570
then demand the service providers to do so.

00:51:38.570 --> 00:51:41.950
We are seeing pretty good trends as of this
year.

00:51:41.950 --> 00:51:47.500
If you come back next year, I think there
will be sufficient demand from the user side

00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:56.070
to have the institutional Internet service
providers to provide IPv6 also.

00:51:56.070 --> 00:52:02.230
I'm technically out of time, so I'll just
take one last question.

00:52:02.230 --> 00:52:08.940
What is my opinion of the European Union General
Data Protection Regulation, or the GDPR?

00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:16.800
My opinion is that the GDPR is a much-needed
conversation that translates the idea of data

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:23.670
from what people will confuse with assets,
intellectual properties, which are leaky abstractions

00:52:23.670 --> 00:52:30.840
that doesn't mean anything to a, what we call,
data agency a relationship-based worldview.

00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:35.370
Basically, as a government institution, if
I hold your data, this is a beginning of a

00:52:35.370 --> 00:52:40.210
relationship where you can ask what happens
to the data, who can update the data, so it

00:52:40.210 --> 00:52:41.550
reflects the purpose.

00:52:41.550 --> 00:52:46.660
If I try to use the data in any other way
other than pure statistics, I need to check

00:52:46.660 --> 00:52:51.400
with you first, so that you can know what's
going on, and provide the most up-to-date

00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:52.400
data.

00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:56.680
Instead of leaving just a shadow digital trail
that's five years out of date, that results

00:52:56.680 --> 00:52:58.060
in more bias.

00:52:58.060 --> 00:53:03.870
I think data agency, data as a relationship,
and also data accountability.

00:53:03.870 --> 00:53:08.390
Accountability interestingly only translate
in Mandarin as three different words.

00:53:08.390 --> 00:53:11.800
For people who ask for accountability, it's
called 問責.

00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.970
For us who are held accountable, it's called
當責.

00:53:15.970 --> 00:53:22.460
A system within it that holds both sides together,
the relationship, is called 課責機制,

00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:24.490
or an accountability mechanism.

00:53:24.490 --> 00:53:27.800
So 課責 is a relational concept.

00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:31.130
It is not a one-time transactional concept.

00:53:31.130 --> 00:53:37.380
I think GDPR is a much-needed wake-up call
for everybody to see data as a relationship,

00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:40.700
as not as some digital asset or intellectual
property.

00:53:40.700 --> 00:53:41.700
Thank you very much.

00:53:41.700 --> 00:53:41.701
[applause]