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We're very happy to have digital minister
of Taiwan, who's come to our DebConf '18.

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I don't even have to tell him what to say,
because he knows what to do.

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[applause]

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Thank you, everyone, happy to be here.

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To somewhat compensate the lack of Q&A time
in the previous session, we will start with

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the Q&A.

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If you have any device connected to the Internet,
please go to this website.

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It's called slido.com, S-L-I-D-O.com.

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Once you're on this website, you will be asked
to enter a number.

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Without the hash, it's just seven two eight,
or today's date.

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Once you enter the three digits, you can press
join or a small, green button.

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Then you will be dropped into this anonymous
or pseudonymous chat channel.

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Here, feel free to ask me anything, like literally
anything.

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If you see other people's questions that you
would also like to see me answer, you can

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just press like.

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The questions with the most number of likes
will float to the top on this projection here.

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For the rest of this hour, I guess, the next
15 minutes, I'll begin with a short introduction,

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maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, about
my work in the Taiwan administration in the

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public digital innovation space, the PDIS,
as we're seeing here.

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Meanwhile, as I'm talking, feel free to ask
me any and all questions, which will show

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up on the phone here.

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Once there's sufficient number of questions,
then I will switch right back to Slido.

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My current favorite programming language is
text/plain character set UTF-8.

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[laughs] It's one of the most versatile programming
language there is.

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I'll explore that more in my talk.

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I'm sure it's your favorite programming language
too.

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[laughs] Let's get started.

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Unlike many people working on democracy today,
I'm an optimist when it comes to democracy

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and especially Internet democracy.

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This strange condition began when I was 15
years old.

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That was 1996.

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I discovered that the future of human knowledge
and indeed future of democracy is happening

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on the web and my education in school is a
little out of date.

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I told my teachers that I found this wonderful
constitutional democracy called Debian -- no,

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really, I did -- on the Internet, where people
use Condorcet voting methods and these very

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advanced algorithms and policy development
process and so on.

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I want to quit school and begin my education
on the World Wide Web.

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Surprisingly, my teachers were very reasonable
people and they all agreed with it.

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After that, I just dropped out of high school
and started a few web startups and just participated

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in this wonderful community of the Internet
Society and the open-source and free software

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communities to basically see that how people
can at least come to consensus or at least

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consent through radical transparency and rough
consensus and so on.

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Today I'm Taiwan's digital minister for a
year-and-a-half now.

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I'm applying the lessons that I learned when
I was 15 years old, civic participation, rough

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consensus, radical transparency to the representative
democratic system here.

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Surprisingly, it's working 
and it's changing, gradually, our society.

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Two years ago, when President Tsai Ing-wen
first became inaugurated as our president,

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she said an inspiring statement in her inauguration
speech.

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She said, "Before, when we think of democracy,
we think about the opposition between two

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opposing values.

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But now, from now on, Taiwan's democracy need
to become a conversation between many diverse

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values."

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The key point here is the plural of this word
"value."

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There's many values in Taiwan and we're going
to build a conversational, deliberative democracy

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out of those very different but diverse values.

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Indeed, previously, when people think about
the government or the state, or things like

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that, people tend to have this picture, like
we have different departments.

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We have different ministries.

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We have different council within the parliament,
who talk to, for example, the environmental

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agency may talk to the environmentalist groups.

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The minister of economy may talk to developmental,
more capitalistic groups and so on.

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There's different nodes within the government
to talk to the different sides of stakeholders.

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People imagined that the government is what
brings people together and who arbitrates

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between those conflicting or opposing forces.

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This model of governance, as all of you know,
has become bankrupt within the previous decade

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or so with the advent of the social web and
the Internet activism.

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The reason is that people can organize now
perfectly fine without a representative organizer

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from the mainstream media or from the representative
democracy.

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Also, because there's so many emerging issues,
we can't have a different ministry or a different

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agency for each of them.

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If the government insists on being still this
kind of rope in between, not only is its organizational

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value much lower than before, it would be
torn between so many different interests that

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it become paralyzed.

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The distance between the government and people,
while not increasing...The distance between

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people and people have much shortened.

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It leads to a recession or a distrust to the
democratic institutions.

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The way we're working on this is basically
reimagine the questions governance systems

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ask.

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Instead of asking who we need to represent
or what is fair arbitration, we ask instead

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what is the due process in which that the
various different stakeholders can find common

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values, and given the common values, can we
come up with solutions that works for everyone,

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that everyone can live with.

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This is the idea of civic tech or, basically,
technology that enables people to listen to

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one another.

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This has, basically, a lot of international
metrics measuring this, like the diversity

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of gender and participation in the Internet,
like the rank of open data and accessibility,

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like the access to e-participation platforms.

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Since 2015, Taiwan has been consistently ranked
number one or number two in all of those metrics

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worldwide.

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The reason is that at the end of 2014, there
is a radical U-turn of national direction

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by embracing the wisdom of the crowd and open
government as the national direction.

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It was catalyzed and epitomized by Occupy
movement back in 2014 where people occupied

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the parliament for 22 days in a nonviolent
demonstration.

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When we say demonstration, we mean it in like
the demo day sense.

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It's a demo.

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At the time, the members of the parliament
in Taiwan refused to deliberate a cross-strait

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service trade agreement because they think
constitutionally Beijing is part of Taiwan.

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In any case they refuse to deliberate a statement,
a treaty.

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People occupied the parliament and did the
MPs work for them by basically deliberating

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line by line what the service trade pact entails.

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There's more than 20 different NGOs in all
the different streets around the parliament,

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in a non-violent way, just deliberating aspects
of this cross-strait service agreement.

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I was part of the movement that supported
the logistics and the ICT communication for

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this movement.

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It's called g0v.tw or just g0v.

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The idea of g0v is very simple.

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For any Taiwan government services that all
end in gov.tw, we just register this domain

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g0v.tw so that people, whenever they see a
government service or website that's not to

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the people's liking, they can just fork that
website and build a more interactive, open

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version that just changes the O to a zero
on your URL.

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It's very easy to discover.

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It solves the discoverability problem.

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Like for the legislation, legislative yuan
gov.tw, the corresponding shadow government

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is just ly.g0v.tw.

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It's very easy to remember.

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It's a very neat hack. [laughs]

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The first project of the g0v movement, back
in 2012, before I joined, was called budget.g0v.tw.

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It's essentially interactive platform that
shows a visualization of the national budget.

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Everybody can just look on the part, the specific
project that they are interested in, have

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a real-time discussion on the discussion forum
center on that budget item as the social object

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instead of on the budget as a whole.

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The idea is forking the government.

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Usually, the g0v projects are under a free
software license or really the Creative Commons

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Zero license, which is not a license.

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It's just a declaration of donation to the
public domain.

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The result is that when the state-level government,
at the end of 2014, want to incorporate this

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into the participatory budget program and
things, they don't have to ask anyone.

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They just take the g0v forked versions and
merge it back to the state-level governments.

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So far, there's like seven different cities
adopting this.

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As of this year, the national government also
merged this in.

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Today, in join.gov.tw, you can see all the
1,300 national projects and all its KPIs,

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its deliverables, and have a real-time discussion
with the career public servants in charge

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of that governmental project, essentially
bypassing the representative democratic system.

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It enables a real discussion.

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Why are there so many civic hackers in Taiwan,
who, during the Sunflower Movement, just a

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lot like me...I just talk to my clients that
I need to take a three-week leave because

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democracy needs me.

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There's hundreds of people who did that back
in 2014.

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Why is that?

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I'm 37 now.

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We're the first generation in Taiwan that
can actually do democracy after three decades

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of martial law, which was lifted in 1989,
around the time of personal computers.

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We only had our first presidential election
in 1996 which is about the year of the popularization

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of the World Wide Web.

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Internet and democracy, they're not two things.

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They're not two different branches of people.

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It's the same generation of people.

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It's the same thing in Taiwan.

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The advent of democracy and the advent of
Internet and direct democracy is the same

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time in Taiwan.

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We don't have 200 or 300 years of a representative
democracy tradition.

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When we had democracy, we had also the Internet.

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In Taiwan, when we see or when we talk about
free software, we translate it as [Mandarin]

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. It's always free as in freedom to assemble,
freedom of speech, freedom to express, and

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never free of cost.

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We know that freedom is never free of costs.

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Our parents' generation, our grandparents'
generation fought very hard to get those freedoms.

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It's up to us to use the software freedoms
to keep the society free.

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At the end of 2014 and after the Occupy, there's
many mayors, mayor candidates who were Occupy

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supporters or Occupyers themselves, who very
surprisingly found themselves elected mayors

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when they did not expect.

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It's something that also happen in Spain also
[laughs] and in many other Occupys in that

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time.

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At the time, the premier during the Occupy
resigned, saying, "I don't understand you

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people."

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He just resigned.

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A new premier, an engineer, said, "OK, so
from now on, crowdsourcing and open governance

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is just going to be the national direction."

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The Occupyers and us, the supporters of the
Occupys, the facilitators and the ICT experts,

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were then hired into the national government
in early 2015 to help designing systems to

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collaboratively solve issues, such as Uber,
at the time.

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Uber, in 2015, has entered Taiwan and operated
legally using rental cars and professional

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drivers for a while.

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In 2015, they also introduced a new line of
service called uberX.

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It is using unlicensed drivers and unlicensed
cars and without insurance.

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The PR idea of Uber at the time is to use
this meme, which is a virus of the mind, this

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meme called "sharing economy."

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This meme means very different thing to very
different people.

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For the Uber PR department at the time, it
means very specifically that code dispatch

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cars better than laws, so we obey code not
laws.

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It's very simple message that spreads around
the world.

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It's not just in Taiwan.

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It's like epidemic of the mind.

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People, after becoming a driver for a couple
weeks, maybe they feel that there's no protection,

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that they didn't actually earn that much.

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They quit driving for uberX, but during that
two weeks' time, just like the common flu,

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they would have spread through apps to their
passengers and to other drivers and to other

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passengers.

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It's impossible, actually, at the time, for
us to negotiate with an app or with a virus

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of the mind like the "sharing economy" because
it's in a different category.

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It's impossible to argue with the common flu
either.

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At the time, many state governments try use
Old World methods such as confiscating.

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In Paris, they confiscated office, confiscated
machines, put people to jail.

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Then the next morning, Uber still operates.

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It doesn't really work in the old governmental
methods.

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We thought about it.

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We thought that during the Occupy, where people
listen to each other's positions deeply and

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feel each other's feelings around the CSSTA,
maybe we can reuse some of that technique

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and to work on the Uber issue.

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Basically, we think that deliberation is a
vaccine of the mind.

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Once people have really felt and empathized
with different sides' positions and come up

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with common values, people become immune to
specific virus of the mind in the future.

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I promise to check the questions at this point.

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I'm just going to do it right now.

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There's 17 questions.

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I'll finish this section and then switch right
back to questions.

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A proper deliberation involves four different
stages.

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We used a system invented in Canada, in 2005.

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It's called the focused conversation method,
or FCM.

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It's known as the ORID method also because
it separates the discussion into four different

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stages.

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The first is objective or facts, where people
ask each other.

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Like the government publishes open data, all
we know about uberX.

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We also ask all the private sector and civil
society to donate data into this shared, fact-checked

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database.

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Once people check the facts on the timeline
and we can all agree with the facts, the various

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stakeholders then express their feelings.

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For the same fact, you may feel angry, and
I may feel happy.

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It's all OK.

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It's not until we checked everybody's feelings
that we find that there are some resonating

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feelings that people all feel as important
concerns to ideate on.

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00:16:10,950 --> 00:16:13,120
After the facts, the feelings is the ideas.

223
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,240
The best ideas are the ideas that takes care
of the most people's feelings.

224
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:23,220
Once we uncover those ideas, we then translate
it into legalese.

225
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:27,920
Using the old governmental method, the main
barrier is the language barrier.

226
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,180
The professional public servants, the private
sector lobbyists, and the independent academics,

227
00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:39,860
and so on use a professional language, while
people on the street using a different language.

228
00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:46,320
Under this situation, when people say the
same thing but mean very different things,

229
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,339
the facts and the feelings gets clouded.

230
00:16:49,339 --> 00:16:51,920
Ideas in this environment become ideologies.

231
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,480
Ideologies are an even more potent virus of
mind that blinds people to new facts and to

232
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,980
each other's feelings.

233
00:16:58,980 --> 00:17:04,390
After we get everybody on the same page, checking
the facts that by itself is important, we

234
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:09,309
use a free software system under AGPL called
Pol.is.

235
00:17:09,309 --> 00:17:15,599
Pol.is is a so-called AI-powered conversation
that basically just provides a face to the

236
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:16,599
crowd.

237
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:22,010
We ask everybody to basically look at one
statement that their friends or just a random

238
00:17:22,010 --> 00:17:28,980
person on the Internet propose about their
feeling, their [Mandarin] something.

239
00:17:28,980 --> 00:17:33,950
I think that, or I feel that passenger liability
insurance is important.

240
00:17:33,950 --> 00:17:39,970
As you agree or disagree with the statements,
your avatar will move among your social media

241
00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:44,140
friends -- or you don't have to login -- among
well-known people on social media.

242
00:17:44,140 --> 00:17:48,710
You can discover that your friends and your
family actually think about this in a very

243
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:49,710
different perspective.

244
00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:51,580
They are still your friends and family.

245
00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:53,480
You just didn't talk about this over dinner.

246
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,299
It makes it difficult for people to antagonize,
to treat people with different viewpoints

247
00:17:59,299 --> 00:18:00,299
as enemies.

248
00:18:00,299 --> 00:18:06,090
Rather it enables people to say that OK, after
answering a few yes or no questions, I can

249
00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:07,580
also contribute my feelings.

250
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:11,840
People compete on feelings that resonates
with the most number of people.

251
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:18,730
We say if your ideas or if your feelings resonates
with a supermajority amount of people -- that

252
00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:23,340
is, across all the groups, every group has
more than majority agreeing with you -- then

253
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:29,350
the feelings and proposals with the most resonance,
with the most consensus, we use that as the

254
00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:34,159
agenda to talk with the stakeholders, with
the taxi unions, with the Uber people and

255
00:18:34,159 --> 00:18:35,380
so on.

256
00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:40,159
In this way, we send the same URL to everybody,
and then spread it.

257
00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:45,320
One of the key interface design decisions
during a Pol.is discussion, unlike many other

258
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,149
social media venues, is that you don't see
the reply button here.

259
00:18:49,149 --> 00:18:51,630
There is no reply.

260
00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:57,230
What we discovered is if you have reply, people
focus their energy on discrediting the person

261
00:18:57,230 --> 00:19:00,970
who posted a comment that they don't agree
with.

262
00:19:00,970 --> 00:19:04,420
Like Slido, Pol.is, basically, if you see
something that you don't agree with, your

263
00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:10,220
best recourse is to prepare something more
nuanced, that other people can agree with.

264
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:14,629
After a few weeks, in all the Pol.is discussions,
what we see is that people recognize their

265
00:19:14,629 --> 00:19:19,539
differences in those divisive statements,
but they don't spend more time on it.

266
00:19:19,539 --> 00:19:25,240
People instead spend a lot of time refining
the nuanced consensus, so that people can

267
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,639
resonate, kind of compete, with the most resonance
across the different groups.

268
00:19:29,639 --> 00:19:33,639
We use a live consultation method, where all
the stakeholders are invited.

269
00:19:33,639 --> 00:19:38,590
The taxi company, Uber, union people, and
so on, the co-ops and so on.

270
00:19:38,590 --> 00:19:44,279
We just checked with them all the agenda set
by this Pol.is conversation, one by one.

271
00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:45,539
Saying, "Do you agree?

272
00:19:45,539 --> 00:19:46,559
If you don't, why?

273
00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:47,789
If you do, why?"

274
00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:51,850
Because it's live streamed, with thousands
of people watching, people become bound to

275
00:19:51,850 --> 00:19:53,299
whatever they have said.

276
00:19:53,299 --> 00:19:58,509
Uber, at the time, said, "OK, so we work with
our drivers, to help them obtain a professional

277
00:19:58,509 --> 00:19:59,509
driver's license."

278
00:19:59,509 --> 00:20:04,730
They're bound by the words they spoke at this
live stream meeting.

279
00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:09,509
After this, we then worked on ratifying the
new what we call the diversification of taxi.

280
00:20:09,509 --> 00:20:14,580
One of the highest score is actually contributed
by the free software community, by Irvin Chen,

281
00:20:14,580 --> 00:20:16,690
from the Mozilla community here.

282
00:20:16,690 --> 00:20:21,149
Who said that we should take this opportunity
to upgrade the taxi regulations, so that the

283
00:20:21,149 --> 00:20:25,850
best practices from Uber, for example, taxi
doesn't have to be painted yellow, and there's

284
00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:31,129
the two-way rating system, and so on, could
be used to facilitate better taxi qualities

285
00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:32,129
here in Taiwan.

286
00:20:32,129 --> 00:20:38,820
Led by that consensus and six other consensus
items, we then created a law so that now Uber

287
00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:43,890
is operating legally in Taiwan, but only with
registered driver's licensed cars.

288
00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:49,570
You also get email about your rides, insurance,
every Uber ride, and you can also call taxi

289
00:20:49,570 --> 00:20:52,440
with Uber, and vice versa.

290
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:58,139
This is what we call a multi-stakeholder consultation,
after which people's consensus set the agenda

291
00:20:58,139 --> 00:21:00,429
for the politicians to talk about.

292
00:21:00,429 --> 00:21:06,690
Let's take some questions.

293
00:21:06,690 --> 00:21:14,830
There's 13 people, I think, 15 now, would
like to know, "How can we help other governments

294
00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:16,320
enable open standards?"

295
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,860
This is an excellent question.

296
00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:27,539
In Taiwan, we have this idea of the GDSP,
or the Government Digital Service Principal.

297
00:21:27,539 --> 00:21:33,909
It is modeled, loosely, after the Government
Digital Service in the UK, who also published

298
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:36,460
their digital standards.

299
00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:42,220
The GDS is a thought leader in this area,
and they pioneered a lot of digital standards

300
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:47,769
that are not just open, as in open source,
or open as in open protocol, or format, but

301
00:21:47,769 --> 00:21:51,950
open as in open innovation, where people,
everybody can contribute.

302
00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:59,350
One of their key principles is being user-centric,
which we here expanded in Taiwan, meaning

303
00:21:59,350 --> 00:22:05,940
that the users here not only include citizens
but also people working in the front line

304
00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:07,649
in the public service.

305
00:22:07,649 --> 00:22:14,379
The second thing that the UK GDS also advocates
is that when you build a digital service,

306
00:22:14,379 --> 00:22:18,759
you need not to only test with people, and
the frontline staff, but also test with the

307
00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:21,909
ministry and the cabinet from the beginning
to the end.

308
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:27,479
Ultimately, they're accountable for this digital
service, and they can then solicit more idea

309
00:22:27,479 --> 00:22:30,749
of innovation from this service.

310
00:22:30,749 --> 00:22:38,619
We adopted this spirit, and also call for
leader to be basically cross-disciplinary.

311
00:22:38,619 --> 00:22:46,600
I think the person who asked this question
is maybe most interested in our GDSP number

312
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:54,379
eight, which says, "Open first," basically,
open is the priority.

313
00:22:54,379 --> 00:23:02,499
To reduce the time spent on developing services,
and the total cost of ownership, open should

314
00:23:02,499 --> 00:23:07,309
be the foremost principal when designing and
building services.

315
00:23:07,309 --> 00:23:14,979
By open we mean specifically that all the
machine-to-machine data built by this system

316
00:23:14,979 --> 00:23:20,009
need to be available under an open license,
most commonly the Creative Comments Attribution

317
00:23:20,009 --> 00:23:25,840
4.0 license, which is the default license
for all the ICT systems built in Taiwan.

318
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,970
Also, we prioritize open source.

319
00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:35,559
If the service component reuses existing open
source components, we recommend people to

320
00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:43,869
use Linux Foundation's SPDX, or S-P-D-X, manifest
to solve this warranty issue for the system

321
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:45,070
integrators.

322
00:23:45,070 --> 00:23:51,279
Once they declare their reusable free software
components under SPDX, the warranty in the

323
00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:55,029
legal perspective has a clear delineation.

324
00:23:55,029 --> 00:24:00,850
By this, we want to encourage people to innovate
based on what the government has delivered,

325
00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:05,720
and improve on existing government services
by forking the government, occasionally getting

326
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,019
it right, and getting governments merging
it back.

327
00:24:09,019 --> 00:24:14,289
Not only open data and open source, we also
say that it need to conform with open standards,

328
00:24:14,289 --> 00:24:19,899
so that it could be reused and also, it builds
on common API and common components.

329
00:24:19,899 --> 00:24:25,090
All this is so that we can quickly reiterate
and improve the services.

330
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:31,979
We have a support group of all the governments
who endorse this standard.

331
00:24:31,979 --> 00:24:37,200
It's called Digital Nations, and previously
known as Digital Five, or Digital Seven, depending

332
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,359
on the number of people in it.

333
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,149
We have a chat channel.

334
00:24:41,149 --> 00:24:43,759
We share GitHub repositories.

335
00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:51,340
We communicate very regularly, so that the
governments who embrace open by default have

336
00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:52,799
this venue.

337
00:24:52,799 --> 00:25:00,029
I think our next meeting is Forward 50, in
Ottawa in Canada this November.

338
00:25:00,029 --> 00:25:04,250
All the governments are solving very much
similar issues.

339
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:09,280
All the components that we deliver, it's not
just for improvement of our citizens.

340
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,369
Also, offering it, so that it could be reused
by the government and people building their

341
00:25:14,369 --> 00:25:18,460
own self-governance system, not necessarily
state government or representative governments

342
00:25:18,460 --> 00:25:19,870
worldwide.

343
00:25:19,870 --> 00:25:26,130
The short answer to this is to develop and
adhere to a clear government digital service

344
00:25:26,130 --> 00:25:29,029
principle, to publish and circulate this widely.

345
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:34,210
To encourage this in the procurement laws,
and to encourage this in the accountability,

346
00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:38,489
in the auditing laws, in the statistics laws,
which we all have done.

347
00:25:38,489 --> 00:25:43,739
Then participate internationally in support
groups in the democratic and open governance

348
00:25:43,739 --> 00:25:48,909
governments and basically share these best
practice, or at least better practices, as

349
00:25:48,909 --> 00:25:50,419
open toolkits.

350
00:25:50,419 --> 00:25:54,029
That's the thing that we're doing.

351
00:25:54,029 --> 00:26:00,889
12 people would like me to answer, "What do
I wish from Debian?"

352
00:26:00,889 --> 00:26:05,179
I wish that Debian would live long and prosper.

353
00:26:05,179 --> 00:26:07,220
[laughs]

354
00:26:07,220 --> 00:26:09,260
[applause]

355
00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:17,659
Really, along with other large endeavors,
like the Mozilla Foundation, and the Linux

356
00:26:17,659 --> 00:26:23,769
Foundation, which I just mentioned, Wikimedia
Foundation, you folks are the foundation upon

357
00:26:23,769 --> 00:26:29,460
which that we are advocating to the representative
democratic system that, "Hey there is some

358
00:26:29,460 --> 00:26:34,799
merit in this kind of radical transparency,
and that kind of radical participation."

359
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:41,119
As a conservative anarchist minister, I have
three conditions going into cabinet.

360
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:47,610
The first is that I don't issue a command
to anyone, nor do I take a command.

361
00:26:47,610 --> 00:26:50,250
Everything is by voluntary association.

362
00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:56,190
This is straight from the Debian Constitution,
where, by constitution, nobody can really

363
00:26:56,190 --> 00:26:59,580
be forced into doing any non-voluntary work.

364
00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:05,239
The second one is that I get to work anywhere
on the planet, and it still counts as working.

365
00:27:05,239 --> 00:27:10,629
It's teleworking, and it also enabled a lot
of e-government imperatives, when people discovered

366
00:27:10,629 --> 00:27:14,559
that by a paper-based delivery they can't
really reach me.

367
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:17,159
They can reach me after a week or so.

368
00:27:17,159 --> 00:27:20,379
It is far easier if you just use email.

369
00:27:20,379 --> 00:27:29,600
The third thing, also very important, is that
when I develop those voluntary co-creation

370
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,950
methodologies, it is important for me to be
radically transparent.

371
00:27:33,950 --> 00:27:40,719
By radical transparency I mean not just meeting
with lobbyists and journalists, are all published

372
00:27:40,719 --> 00:27:46,080
online, even internal meetings that I chair,
we also publish everything as a transcript

373
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,739
two weeks after every internal meeting.

374
00:27:48,739 --> 00:27:54,999
It looks like this, it's also using a free
software system, called SayIt developed by,

375
00:27:54,999 --> 00:27:58,279
I think, mySociety, in the UK.

376
00:27:58,279 --> 00:28:04,080
When David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the
time, come to a lobby and have a conversation,

377
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,629
not only is our discussion on the record,
it's on 360 Record.

378
00:28:07,629 --> 00:28:11,859
We can put it on VR or Cardboard or something,
and relive the conversation.

379
00:28:11,859 --> 00:28:15,869
[laughs] Every utterance has a permanent URL.

380
00:28:15,869 --> 00:28:20,710
You can get full accountability of who said
what, where.

381
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:25,370
This is important for the government service,
because the public servants in this situation

382
00:28:25,370 --> 00:28:30,289
they become very innovative, contrary to popular
belief.

383
00:28:30,289 --> 00:28:35,360
Previously, when something gets right, and
people like it, the minister always takes

384
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,739
all the credit, and if something gets wrong,
it's always the career public servants who

385
00:28:39,739 --> 00:28:45,509
didn't execute well, or something and the
netizens has a way to blame the people in

386
00:28:45,509 --> 00:28:47,179
charge for it.

387
00:28:47,179 --> 00:28:50,139
In that situation, there is no motivation
for them to innovate.

388
00:28:50,139 --> 00:28:55,649
Now, with this radically transparent system,
not only is the civil society more understanding

389
00:28:55,649 --> 00:29:02,359
of the context before making a decision, but
also all the credit gets shared to the actual

390
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:06,460
career public servants who proposed something
innovative in the first place.

391
00:29:06,460 --> 00:29:10,489
If anything goes wrong, well, because as far
as I know, I'm the only minister in the world

392
00:29:10,489 --> 00:29:13,509
doing this, it's all Audrey's fault.

393
00:29:13,509 --> 00:29:17,600
I can absorb that blame, while people share
the credit.

394
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,039
We get a lot of very innovative ideas, frankly,
from the public service, such as adopting

395
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:29,059
a thoroughly free software system called sandstorm.io
for our entire public service, in all the

396
00:29:29,059 --> 00:29:33,139
different branches of government, not just
the administration.

397
00:29:33,139 --> 00:29:37,070
We use only free software on this sandstorm.io
system.

398
00:29:37,070 --> 00:29:42,720
Davros replaces Dropbox, EtherCalc replaces
Google Spreadsheet, Etherpad replaces Google

399
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,539
Doc, Wekan replaces Trello, and there's also
Rocket.Chat.

400
00:29:45,539 --> 00:29:49,090
I'm sure you know the other tools that the
free software people uses.

401
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:54,570
Basically, we say any public servants, as
long as they have a gov.tw email address,

402
00:29:54,570 --> 00:29:58,840
can enjoy this for free, and even develop
new applications on it, because it's cyber

403
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,599
security hardened.

404
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,460
We ask our best white hat hackers to attack
it, and they filed a few CVEs, so that we're

405
00:30:06,460 --> 00:30:10,309
[laughs] reasonably sure that it's very secure
now, so that people can develop applications

406
00:30:10,309 --> 00:30:16,149
by themselves, which is free software, and
planning travels together, ordering lunch

407
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:18,289
boxes together.

408
00:30:18,289 --> 00:30:22,190
Unleash innovation within the government,
because they know that this system can absorb

409
00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:26,629
the cybersecurity risk, and I can absorb the
political risk.

410
00:30:26,629 --> 00:30:32,309
17 people would like to know, "It's good that
you discovered Debian, and what makes it interesting

411
00:30:32,309 --> 00:30:34,539
at such a young age, do you run Debian yourself?

412
00:30:34,539 --> 00:30:36,809
Have you contributed to Debian?"

413
00:30:36,809 --> 00:30:45,309
Personally, my desktop environment when I
started learning -- I think it's around 1999

414
00:30:45,309 --> 00:30:48,799
-- system-level programming -- I'm sorry -- has
always been FreeBSD.

415
00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:49,869
[laughs]

416
00:30:49,869 --> 00:30:54,970
I've never actually...I used the Debian compatibility
layer.

417
00:30:54,970 --> 00:30:57,590
I don't know whether that counts or not.

418
00:30:57,590 --> 00:31:03,580
[laughs] I've always been a FreeBSD developer
and contributed to also driver support in

419
00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:04,580
FreeBSD.

420
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:10,840
Also, most of my contributions in the Perl
community and in OpenFoundry, here in Taiwan,

421
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,350
in early 2000s, were first committed to the
FreeBSD port system.

422
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:16,820
It's a different culture.

423
00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:17,909
It's not copyleft.

424
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:18,909
It's not copyright.

425
00:31:18,909 --> 00:31:19,909
It's copy center.

426
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:22,299
You go to the copy center and make many copies.

427
00:31:22,299 --> 00:31:26,179
That's a [laughs] very permissive [laughs]
community.

428
00:31:26,179 --> 00:31:29,999
That's my primary community, the FreeBSD community.

429
00:31:29,999 --> 00:31:37,740
There's various efforts within Debian to reconcile
with, for example, the module signing system.

430
00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:44,679
I piloted the module signing system in CPAN,
in the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network.

431
00:31:44,679 --> 00:31:47,500
There's a lot of packaging issues and so on.

432
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,999
I basically chime in from here to there.

433
00:31:49,999 --> 00:31:56,809
I did not participate in the Debian democracy,
but I really admired from afar, in the FreeBSD

434
00:31:56,809 --> 00:31:57,840
camp.

435
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,869
[laughs]

436
00:31:58,869 --> 00:32:01,610
"Does Taiwan has an open-source strategy?"

437
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:02,610
Yes.

438
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:04,850
I'm glad you asked.

439
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:05,880
It's called DIGI+.

440
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:11,839
I don't know how much of this is translated
into English.

441
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:13,700
Oh, all of it.

442
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:14,700
It's good.

443
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:22,960
If you go to smart.taiwan.gov.tw...We tend
to have one web page for each major government

444
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:23,960
policies.

445
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,229
There's smart.taiwan.gov.tw.

446
00:32:25,229 --> 00:32:27,509
There's AI Taiwan.

447
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:28,940
There's bio Taiwan.

448
00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:35,239
There's also CI Taiwan -- I think that's not
yet translated -- where the CI stands for

449
00:32:35,239 --> 00:32:42,690
civil IoT, which is the shared open data and
also open algorithm platform for all the different

450
00:32:42,690 --> 00:32:48,129
environmental data aggregated in a supercomputing
center that combines the people's, the g0v

451
00:32:48,129 --> 00:32:54,229
site of air sensors and also the government
site of government sensors.

452
00:32:54,229 --> 00:33:00,330
We can all talk with the same fact-based or
evidence-based policy-making process.

453
00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:07,389
I encourage you to check out Smart Taiwan
and also links to Asia Silicon Valley.

454
00:33:07,389 --> 00:33:13,089
When we talk about open society here and also
about the education, like interdisciplinary

455
00:33:13,089 --> 00:33:18,869
digital talents, in the DIGI+ plan, we specifically
said especially in the basic education level,

456
00:33:18,869 --> 00:33:20,940
that is to say K-12 level...

457
00:33:20,940 --> 00:33:26,059
Also because in the next five years all the
college-level students also need to learn

458
00:33:26,059 --> 00:33:34,379
computational thinking and programming, half
of it, I think, by the year 2021 or something.

459
00:33:34,379 --> 00:33:37,690
All of it needs to be based on free software.

460
00:33:37,690 --> 00:33:43,100
If the student graduates and joins the private
sector and choose to use proprietary software,

461
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:44,429
that is their choice.

462
00:33:44,429 --> 00:33:48,129
Of course, the government can't do much about
it, but while they're still children, while

463
00:33:48,129 --> 00:33:54,099
they're still in the schools, it is very important
for us to not let the children or the students

464
00:33:54,099 --> 00:33:56,799
to be subject to vendor lock-in.

465
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,529
By the time they graduate, maybe the vendor
has already moved somewhere else.

466
00:34:00,529 --> 00:34:02,840
Maybe the vendor lose interest in that product
line.

467
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,599
We see a lot of that dynamic.

468
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:11,219
At least in the education system, we're very
firm that we prefer free software for education.

469
00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:15,060
When teaching computational thinking, when
teaching artificial intelligence, when teaching

470
00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:22,699
all those different DIGI+ powered smart machinery,
green energy technology, and so on, we prefer

471
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:25,239
free software when it's in the school.

472
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:32,030
In the DIGI+, there is a strategy to raise
awareness and have talents in school.

473
00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:41,920
There's also twoss.io, I think -- I hope I
remember this right -- which is not yet translated

474
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,580
in English.

475
00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:46,389
it's somewhat translated to English.

476
00:34:46,389 --> 00:34:54,550
In any case, what this tries to do is basically
by getting people sufficient education materials,

477
00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:59,750
so people working on any level of education
can point to existing communities and introduce

478
00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:02,090
their students to such community.

479
00:35:02,090 --> 00:35:08,050
Even people working in like city-level government
or national-level government can also point

480
00:35:08,050 --> 00:35:17,100
to the success cases of incorporating PostgreSQL
or OpenStack or Docker Ecosystem and/or TensorFlow

481
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:20,910
or whatever and which is the success story.

482
00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:23,450
You're replacing proprietary systems.

483
00:35:23,450 --> 00:35:25,230
It's not about procurement anymore.

484
00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:29,890
We already change our procurement regulations
and the government digital service principle.

485
00:35:29,890 --> 00:35:35,910
All that people need now is a boost of confidence
of [Mandarin] , basically, [laughs] by people

486
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:39,530
keep telling them it's OK to use free software.

487
00:35:39,530 --> 00:35:41,410
This is the twoss.io.

488
00:35:41,410 --> 00:35:46,510
If you find anything wrong with it or anything
you can contribute, please feel free to let

489
00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:48,260
us know in twoss.

490
00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:54,330
"Why is Taiwan so restrictive on Internet
access, captive portals, register with ID

491
00:35:54,330 --> 00:35:56,500
for iTaiwan WiFi access, etc.?

492
00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:00,040
Is there the reason, bad experiences or not?"

493
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:07,370
The reason is usually cited as "cybersecurity,"
but it is not a very strong reason.

494
00:36:07,370 --> 00:36:13,060
We are actively looking, actually, like in
the Taiwan high-speed rails, to relax the

495
00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:15,580
captive portal.

496
00:36:15,580 --> 00:36:21,070
Especially when you're on a high-speed moving
train, it is very difficult to actually resume

497
00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:27,670
from hotspot to hotspots if you need to go
through like five or three screens to register.

498
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:32,940
That's the first place where we will relax
this captive portal thing.

499
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:39,560
Once this is done and piloted and proven that
it really doesn't need two more cybersecurity

500
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,700
guards, that we can put other cybersecurity
guards elsewhere on the stack, not necessarily

501
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:51,000
on the personal identification level, then
we will also relax the internal.

502
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:56,401
Within the government agencies, we often provide
two WiFis, one for employees of the government

503
00:36:56,401 --> 00:36:59,540
and one called iTaiwan, also for visitors.

504
00:36:59,540 --> 00:37:03,780
The visitor WiFi, we then will also look to
relax more.

505
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:10,600
That's because those two venues, in the high-speed
rails and also in visitors to government agencies,

506
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,560
you already did your registration somewhere
else.

507
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,220
We don't physically actually need you to register
again.

508
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:23,020
I'm less sure about the city-level public
WiFi, like TPE-Free, or other city-level WiFi

509
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:25,510
because they have a certain level of autonomy.

510
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:27,970
We don't actually dictate what they do.

511
00:37:27,970 --> 00:37:35,720
We just pilot this relaxed login portal thing
and also establish corresponding cybersecurity

512
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:36,720
rules.

513
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,510
Maybe the city-level people will also get
enlightened.

514
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:41,130
We'll see.

515
00:37:41,130 --> 00:37:46,079
There's eleven people who want to know, "Is
it possible to be a citizen in Taiwan and

516
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:49,340
interact fully with the government without
using any proprietary software?"

517
00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:53,280
I'm glad you asked because that's one of the
cases that I'd like to show.

518
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,280
[laughs]

519
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,840
It used to be very, very difficult.

520
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:09,110
Just last May actually, there was a petition
that talks explicitly about it, very explicit.

521
00:38:09,110 --> 00:38:15,730
[laughs] Last May, there was an e-petition
or a national e-petition system.

522
00:38:15,730 --> 00:38:20,590
After 5,000 people participate online...You
can use email or SMS.

523
00:38:20,590 --> 00:38:22,860
It's not a real-name basis.

524
00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:29,600
Basically, after 5,000 people counter-signed
a petition, the government is obliged to respond

525
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,600
to it.

526
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:37,170
This petition is by this user experience designer
卓志遠, which says that our tax filing

527
00:38:37,170 --> 00:38:40,970
system is explosively hostile to users.

528
00:38:40,970 --> 00:38:44,680
It's negative energy in that petition.

529
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,980
There's more negative energy in the body,
which I will spare you the quote.

530
00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:54,960
Basically, at the time, about 80 percent of
comments in that petition discussion area

531
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,390
is very negative.

532
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:59,640
It caused for the resignation of the minister
of finance.

533
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,660
It caused...there's a lot of accusations to
the vendors who provide the system, and all

534
00:39:04,660 --> 00:39:11,770
because in Windows there is a proprietary
Windows-based application for tax filing.

535
00:39:11,770 --> 00:39:17,550
For Linux and for Mac and basically non-Windows
systems, there is a Java applet.

536
00:39:17,550 --> 00:39:24,160
Because last year Oracle Inc. deprecated Java
applets, the user experience become very,

537
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,160
very bad.

538
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,790
People will see that "Please wait.

539
00:39:27,790 --> 00:39:30,440
It's still installing some applet components."

540
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,870
Because the pop-up is by default blocked,
so nothing happens.

541
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:37,170
After 40 minutes, people are still waiting.

542
00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:40,160
It really is very, very difficult to use.

543
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:46,120
After the e-petition, basically there's a
participation officer team in each ministry.

544
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,210
Each participation office, or POs, is responsible.

545
00:39:49,210 --> 00:39:54,040
Just like media officer who talk to journalists
or a parliamentary officer who talk to MPs,

546
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,390
POs talk to such emergent petitions.

547
00:39:57,390 --> 00:40:03,760
By basically saying, I think, not only very
quick, like 36 hours after this petition,

548
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:09,410
our PO 楊金亨 just posted publicly that
everybody who complained about our tax filing

549
00:40:09,410 --> 00:40:15,910
experience on non-Windows systems is cordially
invited to a co-creation workshop, some Friday,

550
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:18,050
in the Ministry of finance.

551
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:22,800
This is very interesting because just by proposing
this invitation...Previously, like 80 percent

552
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,750
of people were just flaming.

553
00:40:24,750 --> 00:40:27,560
20 percent of people were saying, "Well, we're
using Windows.

554
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,750
It works kind of OK."

555
00:40:28,750 --> 00:40:31,440
Nobody really took heed to them.

556
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,420
After this invitation is sent, 80 percent
of people started proposing useful suggestions,

557
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:37,820
useful recommendations.

558
00:40:37,820 --> 00:40:43,750
Only less than 20 percent still remained trolling
or flaming people, but people don't pay attention

559
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:44,960
to them anymore.

560
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,550
Basically, what we did was inviting the trolls,
who turns out to be not trolls.

561
00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:52,890
They were just fed up with the tax filing
system.

562
00:40:52,890 --> 00:40:55,310
They had to vent their feelings.

563
00:40:55,310 --> 00:40:59,140
After they vent their feelings, we all then
solicit ideas from them.

564
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:01,760
People who can make it to Taipei, make it
to Taipei.

565
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,240
Otherwise, people can still participate using
live-streaming.

566
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:11,690
One of the key thing here is radical transparency
and also accountability, meaning that people

567
00:41:11,690 --> 00:41:19,450
who say that the words are explosively crowded,
we just put that, post it as words are explosively

568
00:41:19,450 --> 00:41:24,470
crowded, that it is so brilliantly written
that people are confused.

569
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:26,360
Then we just post it.

570
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,810
People say instead of designing a system makes
people feel better, people don't feel good

571
00:41:31,810 --> 00:41:36,590
at all when they think about filing taxes,
so we should shorten the experience instead

572
00:41:36,590 --> 00:41:39,930
of trying to make people feel better and so
on.

573
00:41:39,930 --> 00:41:45,810
Basically, people who proposed such ideations
online, we just use service design methodologies

574
00:41:45,810 --> 00:41:51,450
and hold five co-creation workshops with all
the different stakeholders involved in the

575
00:41:51,450 --> 00:41:53,490
tax filing experience.

576
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:59,380
This year, the tax filing experience for non-Windows
systems is entirely HTML5-based.

577
00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:02,160
It adheres to the open standards.

578
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:09,350
People can just using any platform that can
run a browser to access the tax filing system.

579
00:42:09,350 --> 00:42:16,260
The short answer to this question is that
it has become more and more possible while

580
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:25,160
we translate or transform existing desktop-oriented
or Windows-specific or Java applets into web-based

581
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,160
situations.

582
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:32,620
Now, if you insist that all the JavaScript
libraries and CSS libraries that government

583
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:38,010
system use has also to be open source or free
software, that would take a little bit more

584
00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:39,010
time.

585
00:42:39,010 --> 00:42:44,490
It will need the current generation of system
to be wholly replaced by post-government digital

586
00:42:44,490 --> 00:42:47,310
service principle, post-GDSP, systems.

587
00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:51,210
We are focusing on reducing the load on the
client side first.

588
00:42:51,210 --> 00:42:57,050
At the time, I think you can complete most
of the interactions of the governmental issues

589
00:42:57,050 --> 00:43:02,210
like filing taxes and so on if you're OK with
using a free software browser, but there's

590
00:43:02,210 --> 00:43:04,570
still some proprietary JavaScript code.

591
00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:07,660
This is the compromise situation we're in
at the moment.

592
00:43:07,660 --> 00:43:12,590
With the rollout of GDSP, we're also looking
to make the JavaScript and CSS and also the

593
00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:18,640
backend systems more non-proprietary.

594
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:26,370
Anonymous would like to know the shared objects
in the tax filing plugin is not open source.

595
00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:27,370
Why?

596
00:43:27,370 --> 00:43:33,720
Because the copyright belongs to, I think,
the vendor Chunghwa Telecom.

597
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:41,690
Back when we signed the agreement with the
Chunghwa Telecom, the GDSP was not in effect.

598
00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:47,170
The contract, basically, attributed the copyright
to the vendor, who only conferred usage right

599
00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:48,730
to the government and the citizens.

600
00:43:48,730 --> 00:43:51,220
This is a mistake that we will not repeat.

601
00:43:51,220 --> 00:43:57,190
At the moment, we don't have the legal recourse
for the current generation of plugin systems

602
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:59,540
to be relicensed as free software.

603
00:43:59,540 --> 00:44:00,540
I tried.

604
00:44:00,540 --> 00:44:01,540
[laughs]

605
00:44:01,540 --> 00:44:07,760
The easiest way is just for the next version
of identification methods, such as the national

606
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,720
healthcare card, which, by the way, is currently
in public consultation.

607
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:20,930
If you want to contribute, like you demand
free software stack for the entire Medicare

608
00:44:20,930 --> 00:44:27,380
system, please feel free to go to join.gov.tw,
where we are now asking for consultation on

609
00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:34,360
people who are looking to virtualize their
universal Medicare card and/or to use NFC-based

610
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,170
authentication.

611
00:44:36,170 --> 00:44:41,680
We want to know about people's preference
when it comes to the technology, to the regulations,

612
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,020
as well as to the total cost of ownership,
and also of usage.

613
00:44:45,020 --> 00:44:51,670
If you feel strongly about it, please do contribute
online on Join platform, so that we can say

614
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:56,690
to the people writing the contracts that people
really feel that it is very important for

615
00:44:56,690 --> 00:45:01,650
our next-generation authentication methods
to be nonproprietary.

616
00:45:01,650 --> 00:45:07,110
Eight people would like to know, "What is
your opinion on e-commerce application refusing

617
00:45:07,110 --> 00:45:12,690
to operating on restriction-free devices like
rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

618
00:45:12,690 --> 00:45:14,330
Is it fair?"

619
00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:22,330
Mostly, I think they do this with the call
to "fraud prevention."

620
00:45:22,330 --> 00:45:27,030
[laughs] It's not about fairness.

621
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:33,620
I think it is about the choice or the freedom
of choice or the liberty of users.

622
00:45:33,620 --> 00:45:38,800
The reason why GDSP prefers free software
is because when it comes to healthcare or

623
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,610
tax filing, there really is no choice.

624
00:45:41,610 --> 00:45:47,250
To be a citizen in Taiwan, you have to go
through some government-sponsored API endpoints

625
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:51,390
to produce some government-sponsored form
data and so on.

626
00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:58,160
Because there is no choice, we really need
to be open so that people can hold us to account

627
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,140
to be more transparent and also innovate on
existing solutions.

628
00:46:02,140 --> 00:46:07,220
For e-commerce applications where there are
no de facto monopolies, when people still

629
00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:14,070
have a choice, the government, at the moment,
does not take a stance against the e-commerce

630
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:21,200
apps who uses fraud detection or prevention
methods that result in incompatibility with

631
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,980
rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

632
00:46:24,980 --> 00:46:32,030
I think one of the possible direction out
of this dilemma is to basically talk to people

633
00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:38,570
who work on "fraud prevention," just like
how we talked with the high-speed rails and

634
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:44,310
the government agencies providing iTaiwan
software and WiFi for free.

635
00:46:44,310 --> 00:46:49,410
We basically said, "You can do your fraud
prevention or cybersecurity on another layer

636
00:46:49,410 --> 00:46:55,010
in this system and not in the particular layer
of requiring a captive portal and the MAC

637
00:46:55,010 --> 00:46:58,820
address, which is very easy to spoof anyway."

638
00:46:58,820 --> 00:47:06,260
I think just by talking to people like this,
or we talk to people who advocate copyright

639
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:08,740
protection through blocking of the Internet.

640
00:47:08,740 --> 00:47:13,220
We say with IPv6, it's getting more and more
impossible.

641
00:47:13,220 --> 00:47:19,480
Watermarking or real-time watermarking methodologies,
it infringes on the consumers' or customers'

642
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,100
experience is less.

643
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:26,270
It is actually a better solution overall than
just banning entire websites.

644
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:27,740
People have legitimate interest.

645
00:47:27,740 --> 00:47:29,580
There are legitimate stakes.

646
00:47:29,580 --> 00:47:35,870
As I said, often we think of it as like a
tug of war, but in many different cases, it

647
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:40,700
is possible actually with some what we call
social innovation, an innovation that basically

648
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:45,640
takes care of all the different sides of interest
and leaves nobody worse off.

649
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:53,700
I would encourage people who feel strongly
about it to contact your local, friendly e-commerce

650
00:47:53,700 --> 00:48:00,700
association like [Mandarin] , who does have
a forum to talk about things like this.

651
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:07,060
We use that forum to talk about fraud detection
and prevention of people selling counterfeit

652
00:48:07,060 --> 00:48:10,080
goods on Facebook to pretty good effect.

653
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,350
I would also encourage you to contact your
local association about it.

654
00:48:14,350 --> 00:48:19,910
"Can we see any legislator supporting free
software in the government movement, like

655
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:23,700
Public Money, Public Code from the EFF?"

656
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:33,000
In Taiwan, when you see this government, the
GDSP, we already say this.

657
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,550
This is public code.

658
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:36,270
This is open data.

659
00:48:36,270 --> 00:48:41,580
This is open standards and also common APIs.

660
00:48:41,580 --> 00:48:49,210
We used also a Linux Foundation project called
OAS 3.0, which was Swagger, to state that

661
00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:53,460
all the different systems built, as long as
it has a machine-to-machine component, need

662
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:57,520
to adhere to this machine-to-machine open
API specification.

663
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:05,500
The reason why we put an equal amount of attention
on the source code license versus the machine-to-machine

664
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,930
integration is that if we only talk about
public code or the license, it is very often

665
00:49:09,930 --> 00:49:15,440
that a system integrator will deliver something
that is technically free software, but it

666
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:22,130
depends on, for example, expensive Oracle
systems or even more expensive DB2 systems.

667
00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:28,220
That basically still restricts the reuse across
different ministries and agencies.

668
00:49:28,220 --> 00:49:33,840
By saying for all the import and export, for
all the batch-level access, by basically treating

669
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,030
machine-to-machine accessibility the same
way we treat universal access, like for blind

670
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:40,030
people...

671
00:49:40,030 --> 00:49:44,660
We basically say while you may still depend
on Oracle or DB2 at a point, the next vendor

672
00:49:44,660 --> 00:49:51,380
can just build on your API and even batch
export what's in this public money-paid database

673
00:49:51,380 --> 00:49:56,310
and rebuild a service without depending on
any proprietary technological stack.

674
00:49:56,310 --> 00:50:01,770
I would argue that the freedom of portability
is as important as freedom to fork and freedom

675
00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:02,770
to reuse.

676
00:50:02,770 --> 00:50:04,690
Both are of course very important.

677
00:50:04,690 --> 00:50:12,300
Constitutionally, I am not supposed to speculate
on legislators, but [laughs] there is various

678
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:18,920
younger legislators in all the different parties
who are also interested in this area.

679
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,570
Is there any chance, eight people would like
to know, that I can urge deans of higher education

680
00:50:24,570 --> 00:50:28,550
facilities like NCTU to deploy IP version
6.

681
00:50:28,550 --> 00:50:32,410
It's a bootstrapping problem, isn't it? [laughs]

682
00:50:32,410 --> 00:50:40,630
This year, we see a surge of IPv6 adoption,
actually, after TWNIC changed hands and [laughs]

683
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:44,550
embrace a very IPv6-first roadmap.

684
00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:50,230
We see, for example, Chunghwa Telecom has
drastically increased the IPv6 connectivity

685
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:52,220
of their mobile clients.

686
00:50:52,220 --> 00:50:58,880
We also see other telecoms and other peering
institutions and ISPs starting to adopt this

687
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,060
trend.

688
00:51:00,060 --> 00:51:06,310
Once there's sufficient amount of people using
the clients that are IPv6-enabled and even

689
00:51:06,310 --> 00:51:12,460
IPv6-preferred, there will be sufficient pressure
then for the service providers to provide

690
00:51:12,460 --> 00:51:16,950
as good, if not better, service over IPv6.

691
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:18,120
I feel your QQ.

692
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:23,850
I help you, your QQ. [laughs] 幫 QQ, right?

693
00:51:23,850 --> 00:51:28,810
I think really, it is up to the students,
the clients, and the users of the Internet,

694
00:51:28,810 --> 00:51:35,400
the last-mile providers to first build a useful
and usable IPv6 environment before we can

695
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,570
then demand the service providers to do so.

696
00:51:38,570 --> 00:51:41,950
We are seeing pretty good trends as of this
year.

697
00:51:41,950 --> 00:51:47,500
If you come back next year, I think there
will be sufficient demand from the user side

698
00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:56,070
to have the institutional Internet service
providers to provide IPv6 also.

699
00:51:56,070 --> 00:52:02,230
I'm technically out of time, so I'll just
take one last question.

700
00:52:02,230 --> 00:52:08,940
What is my opinion of the European Union General
Data Protection Regulation, or the GDPR?

701
00:52:08,940 --> 00:52:16,800
My opinion is that the GDPR is a much-needed
conversation that translates the idea of data

702
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,670
from what people will confuse with assets,
intellectual properties, which are leaky abstractions

703
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:30,840
that doesn't mean anything to a, what we call,
data agency a relationship-based worldview.

704
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,370
Basically, as a government institution, if
I hold your data, this is a beginning of a

705
00:52:35,370 --> 00:52:40,210
relationship where you can ask what happens
to the data, who can update the data, so it

706
00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:41,550
reflects the purpose.

707
00:52:41,550 --> 00:52:46,660
If I try to use the data in any other way
other than pure statistics, I need to check

708
00:52:46,660 --> 00:52:51,400
with you first, so that you can know what's
going on, and provide the most up-to-date

709
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,400
data.

710
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,680
Instead of leaving just a shadow digital trail
that's five years out of date, that results

711
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,060
in more bias.

712
00:52:58,060 --> 00:53:03,870
I think data agency, data as a relationship,
and also data accountability.

713
00:53:03,870 --> 00:53:08,390
Accountability interestingly only translate
in Mandarin as three different words.

714
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:11,800
For people who ask for accountability, it's
called 問責.

715
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,970
For us who are held accountable, it's called
當責.

716
00:53:15,970 --> 00:53:22,460
A system within it that holds both sides together,
the relationship, is called 課責機制,

717
00:53:22,460 --> 00:53:24,490
or an accountability mechanism.

718
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:27,800
So 課責 is a relational concept.

719
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,130
It is not a one-time transactional concept.

720
00:53:31,130 --> 00:53:37,380
I think GDPR is a much-needed wake-up call
for everybody to see data as a relationship,

721
00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:40,700
as not as some digital asset or intellectual
property.

722
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:41,700
Thank you very much.

723
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:41,701
[applause]