0:00:06.319,0:00:24.560
We're very happy to have digital minister[br]of Taiwan, who's come to our DebConf '18.

0:00:24.560,0:00:30.359
I don't even have to tell him what to say,[br]because he knows what to do.

0:00:30.359,0:00:31.359
[applause]

0:00:31.359,0:00:36.120
Thank you, everyone, happy to be here.

0:00:36.120,0:00:41.410
To somewhat compensate the lack of Q&A time[br]in the previous session, we will start with

0:00:41.410,0:00:43.790
the Q&A.

0:00:43.790,0:00:48.640
If you have any device connected to the Internet,[br]please go to this website.

0:00:48.640,0:00:52.880
It's called slido.com, S-L-I-D-O.com.

0:00:52.880,0:00:57.030
Once you're on this website, you will be asked[br]to enter a number.

0:00:57.030,0:01:00.260
Without the hash, it's just seven two eight,[br]or today's date.

0:01:00.260,0:01:06.140
Once you enter the three digits, you can press[br]join or a small, green button.

0:01:06.140,0:01:10.890
Then you will be dropped into this anonymous[br]or pseudonymous chat channel.

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Here, feel free to ask me anything, like literally[br]anything.

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If you see other people's questions that you[br]would also like to see me answer, you can

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just press like.

0:01:22.860,0:01:29.170
The questions with the most number of likes[br]will float to the top on this projection here.

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For the rest of this hour, I guess, the next[br]15 minutes, I'll begin with a short introduction,

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maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, about[br]my work in the Taiwan administration in the

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public digital innovation space, the PDIS,[br]as we're seeing here.

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Meanwhile, as I'm talking, feel free to ask[br]me any and all questions, which will show

0:01:51.170,0:01:53.060
up on the phone here.

0:01:53.060,0:01:57.969
Once there's sufficient number of questions,[br]then I will switch right back to Slido.

0:01:57.969,0:02:07.650
My current favorite programming language is[br]text/plain character set UTF-8.

0:02:07.650,0:02:13.450
[laughs] It's one of the most versatile programming[br]language there is.

0:02:13.450,0:02:16.510
I'll explore that more in my talk.

0:02:16.510,0:02:19.930
I'm sure it's your favorite programming language[br]too.

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[laughs] Let's get started.

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Unlike many people working on democracy today,[br]I'm an optimist when it comes to democracy

0:02:30.880,0:02:33.540
and especially Internet democracy.

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This strange condition began when I was 15[br]years old.

0:02:36.870,0:02:38.720
That was 1996.

0:02:38.720,0:02:43.720
I discovered that the future of human knowledge[br]and indeed future of democracy is happening

0:02:43.720,0:02:48.070
on the web and my education in school is a[br]little out of date.

0:02:48.070,0:02:53.510
I told my teachers that I found this wonderful[br]constitutional democracy called Debian -- no,

0:02:53.510,0:02:58.720
really, I did -- on the Internet, where people[br]use Condorcet voting methods and these very

0:02:58.720,0:03:04.500
advanced algorithms and policy development[br]process and so on.

0:03:04.500,0:03:09.040
I want to quit school and begin my education[br]on the World Wide Web.

0:03:09.040,0:03:13.769
Surprisingly, my teachers were very reasonable[br]people and they all agreed with it.

0:03:13.769,0:03:19.209
After that, I just dropped out of high school[br]and started a few web startups and just participated

0:03:19.209,0:03:25.860
in this wonderful community of the Internet[br]Society and the open-source and free software

0:03:25.860,0:03:31.850
communities to basically see that how people[br]can at least come to consensus or at least

0:03:31.850,0:03:35.970
consent through radical transparency and rough[br]consensus and so on.

0:03:35.970,0:03:39.019
Today I'm Taiwan's digital minister for a[br]year-and-a-half now.

0:03:39.019,0:03:44.459
I'm applying the lessons that I learned when[br]I was 15 years old, civic participation, rough

0:03:44.459,0:03:50.090
consensus, radical transparency to the representative[br]democratic system here.

0:03:50.090,0:03:59.440
Surprisingly, it's working [br]and it's changing, gradually, our society.

0:03:59.440,0:04:05.700
Two years ago, when President Tsai Ing-wen[br]first became inaugurated as our president,

0:04:05.700,0:04:08.970
she said an inspiring statement in her inauguration[br]speech.

0:04:08.970,0:04:14.799
She said, "Before, when we think of democracy,[br]we think about the opposition between two

0:04:14.799,0:04:15.799
opposing values.

0:04:15.799,0:04:22.029
But now, from now on, Taiwan's democracy need[br]to become a conversation between many diverse

0:04:22.029,0:04:23.030
values."

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The key point here is the plural of this word[br]"value."

0:04:28.020,0:04:34.250
There's many values in Taiwan and we're going[br]to build a conversational, deliberative democracy

0:04:34.250,0:04:37.580
out of those very different but diverse values.

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Indeed, previously, when people think about[br]the government or the state, or things like

0:04:43.210,0:04:47.560
that, people tend to have this picture, like[br]we have different departments.

0:04:47.560,0:04:48.650
We have different ministries.

0:04:48.650,0:04:52.640
We have different council within the parliament,[br]who talk to, for example, the environmental

0:04:52.640,0:04:55.190
agency may talk to the environmentalist groups.

0:04:55.190,0:05:00.870
The minister of economy may talk to developmental,[br]more capitalistic groups and so on.

0:05:00.870,0:05:05.270
There's different nodes within the government[br]to talk to the different sides of stakeholders.

0:05:05.270,0:05:10.910
People imagined that the government is what[br]brings people together and who arbitrates

0:05:10.910,0:05:14.370
between those conflicting or opposing forces.

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This model of governance, as all of you know,[br]has become bankrupt within the previous decade

0:05:19.650,0:05:24.970
or so with the advent of the social web and[br]the Internet activism.

0:05:24.970,0:05:31.530
The reason is that people can organize now[br]perfectly fine without a representative organizer

0:05:31.530,0:05:34.560
from the mainstream media or from the representative[br]democracy.

0:05:34.560,0:05:39.820
Also, because there's so many emerging issues,[br]we can't have a different ministry or a different

0:05:39.820,0:05:42.030
agency for each of them.

0:05:42.030,0:05:46.970
If the government insists on being still this[br]kind of rope in between, not only is its organizational

0:05:46.970,0:05:51.380
value much lower than before, it would be[br]torn between so many different interests that

0:05:51.380,0:05:52.960
it become paralyzed.

0:05:52.960,0:05:58.540
The distance between the government and people,[br]while not increasing...The distance between

0:05:58.540,0:06:01.140
people and people have much shortened.

0:06:01.140,0:06:06.150
It leads to a recession or a distrust to the[br]democratic institutions.

0:06:06.150,0:06:12.180
The way we're working on this is basically[br]reimagine the questions governance systems

0:06:12.180,0:06:13.180
ask.

0:06:13.180,0:06:19.150
Instead of asking who we need to represent[br]or what is fair arbitration, we ask instead

0:06:19.150,0:06:24.470
what is the due process in which that the[br]various different stakeholders can find common

0:06:24.470,0:06:28.950
values, and given the common values, can we[br]come up with solutions that works for everyone,

0:06:28.950,0:06:31.320
that everyone can live with.

0:06:31.320,0:06:37.270
This is the idea of civic tech or, basically,[br]technology that enables people to listen to

0:06:37.270,0:06:39.160
one another.

0:06:39.160,0:06:45.840
This has, basically, a lot of international[br]metrics measuring this, like the diversity

0:06:45.840,0:06:53.930
of gender and participation in the Internet,[br]like the rank of open data and accessibility,

0:06:53.930,0:06:58.810
like the access to e-participation platforms.

0:06:58.810,0:07:05.090
Since 2015, Taiwan has been consistently ranked[br]number one or number two in all of those metrics

0:07:05.090,0:07:06.090
worldwide.

0:07:06.090,0:07:10.500
The reason is that at the end of 2014, there[br]is a radical U-turn of national direction

0:07:10.500,0:07:15.750
by embracing the wisdom of the crowd and open[br]government as the national direction.

0:07:15.750,0:07:23.400
It was catalyzed and epitomized by Occupy[br]movement back in 2014 where people occupied

0:07:23.400,0:07:28.440
the parliament for 22 days in a nonviolent[br]demonstration.

0:07:28.440,0:07:31.730
When we say demonstration, we mean it in like[br]the demo day sense.

0:07:31.730,0:07:33.610
It's a demo.

0:07:33.610,0:07:38.030
At the time, the members of the parliament[br]in Taiwan refused to deliberate a cross-strait

0:07:38.030,0:07:44.030
service trade agreement because they think[br]constitutionally Beijing is part of Taiwan.

0:07:44.030,0:07:49.870
In any case they refuse to deliberate a statement,[br]a treaty.

0:07:49.870,0:07:55.460
People occupied the parliament and did the[br]MPs work for them by basically deliberating

0:07:55.460,0:07:59.080
line by line what the service trade pact entails.

0:07:59.080,0:08:03.290
There's more than 20 different NGOs in all[br]the different streets around the parliament,

0:08:03.290,0:08:10.470
in a non-violent way, just deliberating aspects[br]of this cross-strait service agreement.

0:08:10.470,0:08:15.860
I was part of the movement that supported[br]the logistics and the ICT communication for

0:08:15.860,0:08:16.940
this movement.

0:08:16.940,0:08:20.330
It's called g0v.tw or just g0v.

0:08:20.330,0:08:22.630
The idea of g0v is very simple.

0:08:22.630,0:08:29.740
For any Taiwan government services that all[br]end in gov.tw, we just register this domain

0:08:29.740,0:08:35.190
g0v.tw so that people, whenever they see a[br]government service or website that's not to

0:08:35.190,0:08:40.371
the people's liking, they can just fork that[br]website and build a more interactive, open

0:08:40.371,0:08:45.800
version that just changes the O to a zero[br]on your URL.

0:08:45.800,0:08:47.350
It's very easy to discover.

0:08:47.350,0:08:49.770
It solves the discoverability problem.

0:08:49.770,0:08:54.630
Like for the legislation, legislative yuan[br]gov.tw, the corresponding shadow government

0:08:54.630,0:08:55.839
is just ly.g0v.tw.

0:08:55.839,0:08:58.420
It's very easy to remember.

0:08:58.420,0:09:03.400
It's a very neat hack. [laughs]

0:09:03.400,0:09:10.060
The first project of the g0v movement, back[br]in 2012, before I joined, was called budget.g0v.tw.

0:09:10.060,0:09:16.110
It's essentially interactive platform that[br]shows a visualization of the national budget.

0:09:16.110,0:09:20.730
Everybody can just look on the part, the specific[br]project that they are interested in, have

0:09:20.730,0:09:26.230
a real-time discussion on the discussion forum[br]center on that budget item as the social object

0:09:26.230,0:09:28.690
instead of on the budget as a whole.

0:09:28.690,0:09:31.490
The idea is forking the government.

0:09:31.490,0:09:36.290
Usually, the g0v projects are under a free[br]software license or really the Creative Commons

0:09:36.290,0:09:38.320
Zero license, which is not a license.

0:09:38.320,0:09:42.140
It's just a declaration of donation to the[br]public domain.

0:09:42.140,0:09:46.880
The result is that when the state-level government,[br]at the end of 2014, want to incorporate this

0:09:46.880,0:09:51.150
into the participatory budget program and[br]things, they don't have to ask anyone.

0:09:51.150,0:09:56.110
They just take the g0v forked versions and[br]merge it back to the state-level governments.

0:09:56.110,0:09:59.210
So far, there's like seven different cities[br]adopting this.

0:09:59.210,0:10:02.510
As of this year, the national government also[br]merged this in.

0:10:02.510,0:10:10.750
Today, in join.gov.tw, you can see all the[br]1,300 national projects and all its KPIs,

0:10:10.750,0:10:16.399
its deliverables, and have a real-time discussion[br]with the career public servants in charge

0:10:16.399,0:10:22.560
of that governmental project, essentially[br]bypassing the representative democratic system.

0:10:22.560,0:10:24.780
It enables a real discussion.

0:10:24.780,0:10:29.950
Why are there so many civic hackers in Taiwan,[br]who, during the Sunflower Movement, just a

0:10:29.950,0:10:36.080
lot like me...I just talk to my clients that[br]I need to take a three-week leave because

0:10:36.080,0:10:37.500
democracy needs me.

0:10:37.500,0:10:40.560
There's hundreds of people who did that back[br]in 2014.

0:10:40.560,0:10:42.070
Why is that?

0:10:42.070,0:10:43.570
I'm 37 now.

0:10:43.570,0:10:50.080
We're the first generation in Taiwan that[br]can actually do democracy after three decades

0:10:50.080,0:10:56.390
of martial law, which was lifted in 1989,[br]around the time of personal computers.

0:10:56.390,0:11:01.930
We only had our first presidential election[br]in 1996 which is about the year of the popularization

0:11:01.930,0:11:03.560
of the World Wide Web.

0:11:03.560,0:11:05.940
Internet and democracy, they're not two things.

0:11:05.940,0:11:07.940
They're not two different branches of people.

0:11:07.940,0:11:09.529
It's the same generation of people.

0:11:09.529,0:11:11.330
It's the same thing in Taiwan.

0:11:11.330,0:11:16.140
The advent of democracy and the advent of[br]Internet and direct democracy is the same

0:11:16.140,0:11:17.140
time in Taiwan.

0:11:17.140,0:11:21.960
We don't have 200 or 300 years of a representative[br]democracy tradition.

0:11:21.960,0:11:25.160
When we had democracy, we had also the Internet.

0:11:25.160,0:11:31.250
In Taiwan, when we see or when we talk about[br]free software, we translate it as [Mandarin]

0:11:31.250,0:11:37.950
. It's always free as in freedom to assemble,[br]freedom of speech, freedom to express, and

0:11:37.950,0:11:39.460
never free of cost.

0:11:39.460,0:11:42.710
We know that freedom is never free of costs.

0:11:42.710,0:11:47.150
Our parents' generation, our grandparents'[br]generation fought very hard to get those freedoms.

0:11:47.150,0:11:51.680
It's up to us to use the software freedoms[br]to keep the society free.

0:11:51.680,0:11:59.130
At the end of 2014 and after the Occupy, there's[br]many mayors, mayor candidates who were Occupy

0:11:59.130,0:12:04.440
supporters or Occupyers themselves, who very[br]surprisingly found themselves elected mayors

0:12:04.440,0:12:06.160
when they did not expect.

0:12:06.160,0:12:13.470
It's something that also happen in Spain also[br][laughs] and in many other Occupys in that

0:12:13.470,0:12:14.470
time.

0:12:14.470,0:12:19.570
At the time, the premier during the Occupy[br]resigned, saying, "I don't understand you

0:12:19.570,0:12:20.570
people."

0:12:20.570,0:12:22.680
He just resigned.

0:12:22.680,0:12:27.089
A new premier, an engineer, said, "OK, so[br]from now on, crowdsourcing and open governance

0:12:27.089,0:12:30.010
is just going to be the national direction."

0:12:30.010,0:12:35.750
The Occupyers and us, the supporters of the[br]Occupys, the facilitators and the ICT experts,

0:12:35.750,0:12:43.250
were then hired into the national government[br]in early 2015 to help designing systems to

0:12:43.250,0:12:48.440
collaboratively solve issues, such as Uber,[br]at the time.

0:12:48.440,0:12:54.690
Uber, in 2015, has entered Taiwan and operated[br]legally using rental cars and professional

0:12:54.690,0:12:57.470
drivers for a while.

0:12:57.470,0:13:01.920
In 2015, they also introduced a new line of[br]service called uberX.

0:13:01.920,0:13:07.250
It is using unlicensed drivers and unlicensed[br]cars and without insurance.

0:13:07.250,0:13:13.540
The PR idea of Uber at the time is to use[br]this meme, which is a virus of the mind, this

0:13:13.540,0:13:15.380
meme called "sharing economy."

0:13:15.380,0:13:18.870
This meme means very different thing to very[br]different people.

0:13:18.870,0:13:24.779
For the Uber PR department at the time, it[br]means very specifically that code dispatch

0:13:24.779,0:13:29.180
cars better than laws, so we obey code not[br]laws.

0:13:29.180,0:13:33.160
It's very simple message that spreads around[br]the world.

0:13:33.160,0:13:34.760
It's not just in Taiwan.

0:13:34.760,0:13:38.399
It's like epidemic of the mind.

0:13:38.399,0:13:43.010
People, after becoming a driver for a couple[br]weeks, maybe they feel that there's no protection,

0:13:43.010,0:13:44.650
that they didn't actually earn that much.

0:13:44.650,0:13:48.660
They quit driving for uberX, but during that[br]two weeks' time, just like the common flu,

0:13:48.660,0:13:53.320
they would have spread through apps to their[br]passengers and to other drivers and to other

0:13:53.320,0:13:54.320
passengers.

0:13:54.320,0:14:00.779
It's impossible, actually, at the time, for[br]us to negotiate with an app or with a virus

0:14:00.779,0:14:05.050
of the mind like the "sharing economy" because[br]it's in a different category.

0:14:05.050,0:14:07.269
It's impossible to argue with the common flu[br]either.

0:14:07.269,0:14:13.310
At the time, many state governments try use[br]Old World methods such as confiscating.

0:14:13.310,0:14:17.880
In Paris, they confiscated office, confiscated[br]machines, put people to jail.

0:14:17.880,0:14:21.149
Then the next morning, Uber still operates.

0:14:21.149,0:14:25.490
It doesn't really work in the old governmental[br]methods.

0:14:25.490,0:14:26.890
We thought about it.

0:14:26.890,0:14:32.350
We thought that during the Occupy, where people[br]listen to each other's positions deeply and

0:14:32.350,0:14:38.200
feel each other's feelings around the CSSTA,[br]maybe we can reuse some of that technique

0:14:38.200,0:14:40.709
and to work on the Uber issue.

0:14:40.709,0:14:44.190
Basically, we think that deliberation is a[br]vaccine of the mind.

0:14:44.190,0:14:49.490
Once people have really felt and empathized[br]with different sides' positions and come up

0:14:49.490,0:14:57.160
with common values, people become immune to[br]specific virus of the mind in the future.

0:14:57.160,0:14:59.360
I promise to check the questions at this point.

0:14:59.360,0:15:06.750
I'm just going to do it right now.

0:15:06.750,0:15:11.380
There's 17 questions.

0:15:11.380,0:15:17.130
I'll finish this section and then switch right[br]back to questions.

0:15:17.130,0:15:21.100
A proper deliberation involves four different[br]stages.

0:15:21.100,0:15:24.920
We used a system invented in Canada, in 2005.

0:15:24.920,0:15:28.430
It's called the focused conversation method,[br]or FCM.

0:15:28.430,0:15:33.269
It's known as the ORID method also because[br]it separates the discussion into four different

0:15:33.269,0:15:34.269
stages.

0:15:34.269,0:15:37.980
The first is objective or facts, where people[br]ask each other.

0:15:37.980,0:15:42.240
Like the government publishes open data, all[br]we know about uberX.

0:15:42.240,0:15:48.160
We also ask all the private sector and civil[br]society to donate data into this shared, fact-checked

0:15:48.160,0:15:49.459
database.

0:15:49.459,0:15:53.540
Once people check the facts on the timeline[br]and we can all agree with the facts, the various

0:15:53.540,0:15:56.230
stakeholders then express their feelings.

0:15:56.230,0:15:58.980
For the same fact, you may feel angry, and[br]I may feel happy.

0:15:58.980,0:16:00.269
It's all OK.

0:16:00.269,0:16:05.850
It's not until we checked everybody's feelings[br]that we find that there are some resonating

0:16:05.850,0:16:10.950
feelings that people all feel as important[br]concerns to ideate on.

0:16:10.950,0:16:13.120
After the facts, the feelings is the ideas.

0:16:13.120,0:16:17.240
The best ideas are the ideas that takes care[br]of the most people's feelings.

0:16:17.240,0:16:23.220
Once we uncover those ideas, we then translate[br]it into legalese.

0:16:23.220,0:16:27.920
Using the old governmental method, the main[br]barrier is the language barrier.

0:16:27.920,0:16:33.180
The professional public servants, the private[br]sector lobbyists, and the independent academics,

0:16:33.180,0:16:39.860
and so on use a professional language, while[br]people on the street using a different language.

0:16:39.860,0:16:46.320
Under this situation, when people say the[br]same thing but mean very different things,

0:16:46.320,0:16:49.339
the facts and the feelings gets clouded.

0:16:49.339,0:16:51.920
Ideas in this environment become ideologies.

0:16:51.920,0:16:56.480
Ideologies are an even more potent virus of[br]mind that blinds people to new facts and to

0:16:56.480,0:16:58.980
each other's feelings.

0:16:58.980,0:17:04.390
After we get everybody on the same page, checking[br]the facts that by itself is important, we

0:17:04.390,0:17:09.309
use a free software system under AGPL called[br]Pol.is.

0:17:09.309,0:17:15.599
Pol.is is a so-called AI-powered conversation[br]that basically just provides a face to the

0:17:15.599,0:17:16.599
crowd.

0:17:16.599,0:17:22.010
We ask everybody to basically look at one[br]statement that their friends or just a random

0:17:22.010,0:17:28.980
person on the Internet propose about their[br]feeling, their [Mandarin] something.

0:17:28.980,0:17:33.950
I think that, or I feel that passenger liability[br]insurance is important.

0:17:33.950,0:17:39.970
As you agree or disagree with the statements,[br]your avatar will move among your social media

0:17:39.970,0:17:44.140
friends -- or you don't have to login -- among[br]well-known people on social media.

0:17:44.140,0:17:48.710
You can discover that your friends and your[br]family actually think about this in a very

0:17:48.710,0:17:49.710
different perspective.

0:17:49.710,0:17:51.580
They are still your friends and family.

0:17:51.580,0:17:53.480
You just didn't talk about this over dinner.

0:17:53.480,0:17:59.299
It makes it difficult for people to antagonize,[br]to treat people with different viewpoints

0:17:59.299,0:18:00.299
as enemies.

0:18:00.299,0:18:06.090
Rather it enables people to say that OK, after[br]answering a few yes or no questions, I can

0:18:06.090,0:18:07.580
also contribute my feelings.

0:18:07.580,0:18:11.840
People compete on feelings that resonates[br]with the most number of people.

0:18:11.840,0:18:18.730
We say if your ideas or if your feelings resonates[br]with a supermajority amount of people -- that

0:18:18.730,0:18:23.340
is, across all the groups, every group has[br]more than majority agreeing with you -- then

0:18:23.340,0:18:29.350
the feelings and proposals with the most resonance,[br]with the most consensus, we use that as the

0:18:29.350,0:18:34.159
agenda to talk with the stakeholders, with[br]the taxi unions, with the Uber people and

0:18:34.159,0:18:35.380
so on.

0:18:35.380,0:18:40.159
In this way, we send the same URL to everybody,[br]and then spread it.

0:18:40.159,0:18:45.320
One of the key interface design decisions[br]during a Pol.is discussion, unlike many other

0:18:45.320,0:18:49.149
social media venues, is that you don't see[br]the reply button here.

0:18:49.149,0:18:51.630
There is no reply.

0:18:51.630,0:18:57.230
What we discovered is if you have reply, people[br]focus their energy on discrediting the person

0:18:57.230,0:19:00.970
who posted a comment that they don't agree[br]with.

0:19:00.970,0:19:04.420
Like Slido, Pol.is, basically, if you see[br]something that you don't agree with, your

0:19:04.420,0:19:10.220
best recourse is to prepare something more[br]nuanced, that other people can agree with.

0:19:10.220,0:19:14.629
After a few weeks, in all the Pol.is discussions,[br]what we see is that people recognize their

0:19:14.629,0:19:19.539
differences in those divisive statements,[br]but they don't spend more time on it.

0:19:19.539,0:19:25.240
People instead spend a lot of time refining[br]the nuanced consensus, so that people can

0:19:25.240,0:19:29.639
resonate, kind of compete, with the most resonance[br]across the different groups.

0:19:29.639,0:19:33.639
We use a live consultation method, where all[br]the stakeholders are invited.

0:19:33.639,0:19:38.590
The taxi company, Uber, union people, and[br]so on, the co-ops and so on.

0:19:38.590,0:19:44.279
We just checked with them all the agenda set[br]by this Pol.is conversation, one by one.

0:19:44.279,0:19:45.539
Saying, "Do you agree?

0:19:45.539,0:19:46.559
If you don't, why?

0:19:46.559,0:19:47.789
If you do, why?"

0:19:47.789,0:19:51.850
Because it's live streamed, with thousands[br]of people watching, people become bound to

0:19:51.850,0:19:53.299
whatever they have said.

0:19:53.299,0:19:58.509
Uber, at the time, said, "OK, so we work with[br]our drivers, to help them obtain a professional

0:19:58.509,0:19:59.509
driver's license."

0:19:59.509,0:20:04.730
They're bound by the words they spoke at this[br]live stream meeting.

0:20:04.730,0:20:09.509
After this, we then worked on ratifying the[br]new what we call the diversification of taxi.

0:20:09.509,0:20:14.580
One of the highest score is actually contributed[br]by the free software community, by Irvin Chen,

0:20:14.580,0:20:16.690
from the Mozilla community here.

0:20:16.690,0:20:21.149
Who said that we should take this opportunity[br]to upgrade the taxi regulations, so that the

0:20:21.149,0:20:25.850
best practices from Uber, for example, taxi[br]doesn't have to be painted yellow, and there's

0:20:25.850,0:20:31.129
the two-way rating system, and so on, could[br]be used to facilitate better taxi qualities

0:20:31.129,0:20:32.129
here in Taiwan.

0:20:32.129,0:20:38.820
Led by that consensus and six other consensus[br]items, we then created a law so that now Uber

0:20:38.820,0:20:43.890
is operating legally in Taiwan, but only with[br]registered driver's licensed cars.

0:20:43.890,0:20:49.570
You also get email about your rides, insurance,[br]every Uber ride, and you can also call taxi

0:20:49.570,0:20:52.440
with Uber, and vice versa.

0:20:52.440,0:20:58.139
This is what we call a multi-stakeholder consultation,[br]after which people's consensus set the agenda

0:20:58.139,0:21:00.429
for the politicians to talk about.

0:21:00.429,0:21:06.690
Let's take some questions.

0:21:06.690,0:21:14.830
There's 13 people, I think, 15 now, would[br]like to know, "How can we help other governments

0:21:14.830,0:21:16.320
enable open standards?"

0:21:16.320,0:21:18.860
This is an excellent question.

0:21:18.860,0:21:27.539
In Taiwan, we have this idea of the GDSP,[br]or the Government Digital Service Principal.

0:21:27.539,0:21:33.909
It is modeled, loosely, after the Government[br]Digital Service in the UK, who also published

0:21:33.909,0:21:36.460
their digital standards.

0:21:36.460,0:21:42.220
The GDS is a thought leader in this area,[br]and they pioneered a lot of digital standards

0:21:42.220,0:21:47.769
that are not just open, as in open source,[br]or open as in open protocol, or format, but

0:21:47.769,0:21:51.950
open as in open innovation, where people,[br]everybody can contribute.

0:21:51.950,0:21:59.350
One of their key principles is being user-centric,[br]which we here expanded in Taiwan, meaning

0:21:59.350,0:22:05.940
that the users here not only include citizens[br]but also people working in the front line

0:22:05.940,0:22:07.649
in the public service.

0:22:07.649,0:22:14.379
The second thing that the UK GDS also advocates[br]is that when you build a digital service,

0:22:14.379,0:22:18.759
you need not to only test with people, and[br]the frontline staff, but also test with the

0:22:18.759,0:22:21.909
ministry and the cabinet from the beginning[br]to the end.

0:22:21.909,0:22:27.479
Ultimately, they're accountable for this digital[br]service, and they can then solicit more idea

0:22:27.479,0:22:30.749
of innovation from this service.

0:22:30.749,0:22:38.619
We adopted this spirit, and also call for[br]leader to be basically cross-disciplinary.

0:22:38.619,0:22:46.600
I think the person who asked this question[br]is maybe most interested in our GDSP number

0:22:46.600,0:22:54.379
eight, which says, "Open first," basically,[br]open is the priority.

0:22:54.379,0:23:02.499
To reduce the time spent on developing services,[br]and the total cost of ownership, open should

0:23:02.499,0:23:07.309
be the foremost principal when designing and[br]building services.

0:23:07.309,0:23:14.979
By open we mean specifically that all the[br]machine-to-machine data built by this system

0:23:14.979,0:23:20.009
need to be available under an open license,[br]most commonly the Creative Comments Attribution

0:23:20.009,0:23:25.840
4.0 license, which is the default license[br]for all the ICT systems built in Taiwan.

0:23:25.840,0:23:28.970
Also, we prioritize open source.

0:23:28.970,0:23:35.559
If the service component reuses existing open[br]source components, we recommend people to

0:23:35.559,0:23:43.869
use Linux Foundation's SPDX, or S-P-D-X, manifest[br]to solve this warranty issue for the system

0:23:43.869,0:23:45.070
integrators.

0:23:45.070,0:23:51.279
Once they declare their reusable free software[br]components under SPDX, the warranty in the

0:23:51.279,0:23:55.029
legal perspective has a clear delineation.

0:23:55.029,0:24:00.850
By this, we want to encourage people to innovate[br]based on what the government has delivered,

0:24:00.850,0:24:05.720
and improve on existing government services[br]by forking the government, occasionally getting

0:24:05.720,0:24:09.019
it right, and getting governments merging[br]it back.

0:24:09.019,0:24:14.289
Not only open data and open source, we also[br]say that it need to conform with open standards,

0:24:14.289,0:24:19.899
so that it could be reused and also, it builds[br]on common API and common components.

0:24:19.899,0:24:25.090
All this is so that we can quickly reiterate[br]and improve the services.

0:24:25.090,0:24:31.979
We have a support group of all the governments[br]who endorse this standard.

0:24:31.979,0:24:37.200
It's called Digital Nations, and previously[br]known as Digital Five, or Digital Seven, depending

0:24:37.200,0:24:39.359
on the number of people in it.

0:24:39.359,0:24:41.149
We have a chat channel.

0:24:41.149,0:24:43.759
We share GitHub repositories.

0:24:43.759,0:24:51.340
We communicate very regularly, so that the[br]governments who embrace open by default have

0:24:51.340,0:24:52.799
this venue.

0:24:52.799,0:25:00.029
I think our next meeting is Forward 50, in[br]Ottawa in Canada this November.

0:25:00.029,0:25:04.250
All the governments are solving very much[br]similar issues.

0:25:04.250,0:25:09.280
All the components that we deliver, it's not[br]just for improvement of our citizens.

0:25:09.280,0:25:14.369
Also, offering it, so that it could be reused[br]by the government and people building their

0:25:14.369,0:25:18.460
own self-governance system, not necessarily[br]state government or representative governments

0:25:18.460,0:25:19.870
worldwide.

0:25:19.870,0:25:26.130
The short answer to this is to develop and[br]adhere to a clear government digital service

0:25:26.130,0:25:29.029
principle, to publish and circulate this widely.

0:25:29.029,0:25:34.210
To encourage this in the procurement laws,[br]and to encourage this in the accountability,

0:25:34.210,0:25:38.489
in the auditing laws, in the statistics laws,[br]which we all have done.

0:25:38.489,0:25:43.739
Then participate internationally in support[br]groups in the democratic and open governance

0:25:43.739,0:25:48.909
governments and basically share these best[br]practice, or at least better practices, as

0:25:48.909,0:25:50.419
open toolkits.

0:25:50.419,0:25:54.029
That's the thing that we're doing.

0:25:54.029,0:26:00.889
12 people would like me to answer, "What do[br]I wish from Debian?"

0:26:00.889,0:26:05.179
I wish that Debian would live long and prosper.

0:26:05.179,0:26:07.220
[laughs]

0:26:07.220,0:26:09.260
[applause]

0:26:09.260,0:26:17.659
Really, along with other large endeavors,[br]like the Mozilla Foundation, and the Linux

0:26:17.659,0:26:23.769
Foundation, which I just mentioned, Wikimedia[br]Foundation, you folks are the foundation upon

0:26:23.769,0:26:29.460
which that we are advocating to the representative[br]democratic system that, "Hey there is some

0:26:29.460,0:26:34.799
merit in this kind of radical transparency,[br]and that kind of radical participation."

0:26:34.799,0:26:41.119
As a conservative anarchist minister, I have[br]three conditions going into cabinet.

0:26:41.119,0:26:47.610
The first is that I don't issue a command[br]to anyone, nor do I take a command.

0:26:47.610,0:26:50.250
Everything is by voluntary association.

0:26:50.250,0:26:56.190
This is straight from the Debian Constitution,[br]where, by constitution, nobody can really

0:26:56.190,0:26:59.580
be forced into doing any non-voluntary work.

0:26:59.580,0:27:05.239
The second one is that I get to work anywhere[br]on the planet, and it still counts as working.

0:27:05.239,0:27:10.629
It's teleworking, and it also enabled a lot[br]of e-government imperatives, when people discovered

0:27:10.629,0:27:14.559
that by a paper-based delivery they can't[br]really reach me.

0:27:14.559,0:27:17.159
They can reach me after a week or so.

0:27:17.159,0:27:20.379
It is far easier if you just use email.

0:27:20.379,0:27:29.600
The third thing, also very important, is that[br]when I develop those voluntary co-creation

0:27:29.600,0:27:33.950
methodologies, it is important for me to be[br]radically transparent.

0:27:33.950,0:27:40.719
By radical transparency I mean not just meeting[br]with lobbyists and journalists, are all published

0:27:40.719,0:27:46.080
online, even internal meetings that I chair,[br]we also publish everything as a transcript

0:27:46.080,0:27:48.739
two weeks after every internal meeting.

0:27:48.739,0:27:54.999
It looks like this, it's also using a free[br]software system, called SayIt developed by,

0:27:54.999,0:27:58.279
I think, mySociety, in the UK.

0:27:58.279,0:28:04.080
When David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the[br]time, come to a lobby and have a conversation,

0:28:04.080,0:28:07.629
not only is our discussion on the record,[br]it's on 360 Record.

0:28:07.629,0:28:11.859
We can put it on VR or Cardboard or something,[br]and relive the conversation.

0:28:11.859,0:28:15.869
[laughs] Every utterance has a permanent URL.

0:28:15.869,0:28:20.710
You can get full accountability of who said[br]what, where.

0:28:20.710,0:28:25.370
This is important for the government service,[br]because the public servants in this situation

0:28:25.370,0:28:30.289
they become very innovative, contrary to popular[br]belief.

0:28:30.289,0:28:35.360
Previously, when something gets right, and[br]people like it, the minister always takes

0:28:35.360,0:28:39.739
all the credit, and if something gets wrong,[br]it's always the career public servants who

0:28:39.739,0:28:45.509
didn't execute well, or something and the[br]netizens has a way to blame the people in

0:28:45.509,0:28:47.179
charge for it.

0:28:47.179,0:28:50.139
In that situation, there is no motivation[br]for them to innovate.

0:28:50.139,0:28:55.649
Now, with this radically transparent system,[br]not only is the civil society more understanding

0:28:55.649,0:29:02.359
of the context before making a decision, but[br]also all the credit gets shared to the actual

0:29:02.359,0:29:06.460
career public servants who proposed something[br]innovative in the first place.

0:29:06.460,0:29:10.489
If anything goes wrong, well, because as far[br]as I know, I'm the only minister in the world

0:29:10.489,0:29:13.509
doing this, it's all Audrey's fault.

0:29:13.509,0:29:17.600
I can absorb that blame, while people share[br]the credit.

0:29:17.600,0:29:23.039
We get a lot of very innovative ideas, frankly,[br]from the public service, such as adopting

0:29:23.039,0:29:29.059
a thoroughly free software system called sandstorm.io[br]for our entire public service, in all the

0:29:29.059,0:29:33.139
different branches of government, not just[br]the administration.

0:29:33.139,0:29:37.070
We use only free software on this sandstorm.io[br]system.

0:29:37.070,0:29:42.720
Davros replaces Dropbox, EtherCalc replaces[br]Google Spreadsheet, Etherpad replaces Google

0:29:42.720,0:29:45.539
Doc, Wekan replaces Trello, and there's also[br]Rocket.Chat.

0:29:45.539,0:29:49.090
I'm sure you know the other tools that the[br]free software people uses.

0:29:49.090,0:29:54.570
Basically, we say any public servants, as[br]long as they have a gov.tw email address,

0:29:54.570,0:29:58.840
can enjoy this for free, and even develop[br]new applications on it, because it's cyber

0:29:58.840,0:30:00.599
security hardened.

0:30:00.599,0:30:06.460
We ask our best white hat hackers to attack[br]it, and they filed a few CVEs, so that we're

0:30:06.460,0:30:10.309
[laughs] reasonably sure that it's very secure[br]now, so that people can develop applications

0:30:10.309,0:30:16.149
by themselves, which is free software, and[br]planning travels together, ordering lunch

0:30:16.149,0:30:18.289
boxes together.

0:30:18.289,0:30:22.190
Unleash innovation within the government,[br]because they know that this system can absorb

0:30:22.190,0:30:26.629
the cybersecurity risk, and I can absorb the[br]political risk.

0:30:26.629,0:30:32.309
17 people would like to know, "It's good that[br]you discovered Debian, and what makes it interesting

0:30:32.309,0:30:34.539
at such a young age, do you run Debian yourself?

0:30:34.539,0:30:36.809
Have you contributed to Debian?"

0:30:36.809,0:30:45.309
Personally, my desktop environment when I[br]started learning -- I think it's around 1999

0:30:45.309,0:30:48.799
-- system-level programming -- I'm sorry -- has[br]always been FreeBSD.

0:30:48.799,0:30:49.869
[laughs]

0:30:49.869,0:30:54.970
I've never actually...I used the Debian compatibility[br]layer.

0:30:54.970,0:30:57.590
I don't know whether that counts or not.

0:30:57.590,0:31:03.580
[laughs] I've always been a FreeBSD developer[br]and contributed to also driver support in

0:31:03.580,0:31:04.580
FreeBSD.

0:31:04.580,0:31:10.840
Also, most of my contributions in the Perl[br]community and in OpenFoundry, here in Taiwan,

0:31:10.840,0:31:15.350
in early 2000s, were first committed to the[br]FreeBSD port system.

0:31:15.350,0:31:16.820
It's a different culture.

0:31:16.820,0:31:17.909
It's not copyleft.

0:31:17.909,0:31:18.909
It's not copyright.

0:31:18.909,0:31:19.909
It's copy center.

0:31:19.909,0:31:22.299
You go to the copy center and make many copies.

0:31:22.299,0:31:26.179
That's a [laughs] very permissive [laughs][br]community.

0:31:26.179,0:31:29.999
That's my primary community, the FreeBSD community.

0:31:29.999,0:31:37.740
There's various efforts within Debian to reconcile[br]with, for example, the module signing system.

0:31:37.740,0:31:44.679
I piloted the module signing system in CPAN,[br]in the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network.

0:31:44.679,0:31:47.500
There's a lot of packaging issues and so on.

0:31:47.500,0:31:49.999
I basically chime in from here to there.

0:31:49.999,0:31:56.809
I did not participate in the Debian democracy,[br]but I really admired from afar, in the FreeBSD

0:31:56.809,0:31:57.840
camp.

0:31:57.840,0:31:58.869
[laughs]

0:31:58.869,0:32:01.610
"Does Taiwan has an open-source strategy?"

0:32:01.610,0:32:02.610
Yes.

0:32:02.610,0:32:04.850
I'm glad you asked.

0:32:04.850,0:32:05.880
It's called DIGI+.

0:32:05.880,0:32:11.839
I don't know how much of this is translated[br]into English.

0:32:11.839,0:32:13.700
Oh, all of it.

0:32:13.700,0:32:14.700
It's good.

0:32:14.700,0:32:22.960
If you go to smart.taiwan.gov.tw...We tend[br]to have one web page for each major government

0:32:22.960,0:32:23.960
policies.

0:32:23.960,0:32:25.229
There's smart.taiwan.gov.tw.

0:32:25.229,0:32:27.509
There's AI Taiwan.

0:32:27.509,0:32:28.940
There's bio Taiwan.

0:32:28.940,0:32:35.239
There's also CI Taiwan -- I think that's not[br]yet translated -- where the CI stands for

0:32:35.239,0:32:42.690
civil IoT, which is the shared open data and[br]also open algorithm platform for all the different

0:32:42.690,0:32:48.129
environmental data aggregated in a supercomputing[br]center that combines the people's, the g0v

0:32:48.129,0:32:54.229
site of air sensors and also the government[br]site of government sensors.

0:32:54.229,0:33:00.330
We can all talk with the same fact-based or[br]evidence-based policy-making process.

0:33:00.330,0:33:07.389
I encourage you to check out Smart Taiwan[br]and also links to Asia Silicon Valley.

0:33:07.389,0:33:13.089
When we talk about open society here and also[br]about the education, like interdisciplinary

0:33:13.089,0:33:18.869
digital talents, in the DIGI+ plan, we specifically[br]said especially in the basic education level,

0:33:18.869,0:33:20.940
that is to say K-12 level...

0:33:20.940,0:33:26.059
Also because in the next five years all the[br]college-level students also need to learn

0:33:26.059,0:33:34.379
computational thinking and programming, half[br]of it, I think, by the year 2021 or something.

0:33:34.379,0:33:37.690
All of it needs to be based on free software.

0:33:37.690,0:33:43.100
If the student graduates and joins the private[br]sector and choose to use proprietary software,

0:33:43.100,0:33:44.429
that is their choice.

0:33:44.429,0:33:48.129
Of course, the government can't do much about[br]it, but while they're still children, while

0:33:48.129,0:33:54.099
they're still in the schools, it is very important[br]for us to not let the children or the students

0:33:54.099,0:33:56.799
to be subject to vendor lock-in.

0:33:56.799,0:34:00.529
By the time they graduate, maybe the vendor[br]has already moved somewhere else.

0:34:00.529,0:34:02.840
Maybe the vendor lose interest in that product[br]line.

0:34:02.840,0:34:04.599
We see a lot of that dynamic.

0:34:04.599,0:34:11.219
At least in the education system, we're very[br]firm that we prefer free software for education.

0:34:11.219,0:34:15.060
When teaching computational thinking, when[br]teaching artificial intelligence, when teaching

0:34:15.060,0:34:22.699
all those different DIGI+ powered smart machinery,[br]green energy technology, and so on, we prefer

0:34:22.699,0:34:25.239
free software when it's in the school.

0:34:25.239,0:34:32.030
In the DIGI+, there is a strategy to raise[br]awareness and have talents in school.

0:34:32.030,0:34:41.920
There's also twoss.io, I think -- I hope I[br]remember this right -- which is not yet translated

0:34:41.920,0:34:44.580
in English.

0:34:44.580,0:34:46.389
it's somewhat translated to English.

0:34:46.389,0:34:54.550
In any case, what this tries to do is basically[br]by getting people sufficient education materials,

0:34:54.550,0:34:59.750
so people working on any level of education[br]can point to existing communities and introduce

0:34:59.750,0:35:02.090
their students to such community.

0:35:02.090,0:35:08.050
Even people working in like city-level government[br]or national-level government can also point

0:35:08.050,0:35:17.100
to the success cases of incorporating PostgreSQL[br]or OpenStack or Docker Ecosystem and/or TensorFlow

0:35:17.100,0:35:20.910
or whatever and which is the success story.

0:35:20.910,0:35:23.450
You're replacing proprietary systems.

0:35:23.450,0:35:25.230
It's not about procurement anymore.

0:35:25.230,0:35:29.890
We already change our procurement regulations[br]and the government digital service principle.

0:35:29.890,0:35:35.910
All that people need now is a boost of confidence[br]of [Mandarin] , basically, [laughs] by people

0:35:35.910,0:35:39.530
keep telling them it's OK to use free software.

0:35:39.530,0:35:41.410
This is the twoss.io.

0:35:41.410,0:35:46.510
If you find anything wrong with it or anything[br]you can contribute, please feel free to let

0:35:46.510,0:35:48.260
us know in twoss.

0:35:48.260,0:35:54.330
"Why is Taiwan so restrictive on Internet[br]access, captive portals, register with ID

0:35:54.330,0:35:56.500
for iTaiwan WiFi access, etc.?

0:35:56.500,0:36:00.040
Is there the reason, bad experiences or not?"

0:36:00.040,0:36:07.370
The reason is usually cited as "cybersecurity,"[br]but it is not a very strong reason.

0:36:07.370,0:36:13.060
We are actively looking, actually, like in[br]the Taiwan high-speed rails, to relax the

0:36:13.060,0:36:15.580
captive portal.

0:36:15.580,0:36:21.070
Especially when you're on a high-speed moving[br]train, it is very difficult to actually resume

0:36:21.070,0:36:27.670
from hotspot to hotspots if you need to go[br]through like five or three screens to register.

0:36:27.670,0:36:32.940
That's the first place where we will relax[br]this captive portal thing.

0:36:32.940,0:36:39.560
Once this is done and piloted and proven that[br]it really doesn't need two more cybersecurity

0:36:39.560,0:36:43.700
guards, that we can put other cybersecurity[br]guards elsewhere on the stack, not necessarily

0:36:43.700,0:36:51.000
on the personal identification level, then[br]we will also relax the internal.

0:36:51.000,0:36:56.401
Within the government agencies, we often provide[br]two WiFis, one for employees of the government

0:36:56.401,0:36:59.540
and one called iTaiwan, also for visitors.

0:36:59.540,0:37:03.780
The visitor WiFi, we then will also look to[br]relax more.

0:37:03.780,0:37:10.600
That's because those two venues, in the high-speed[br]rails and also in visitors to government agencies,

0:37:10.600,0:37:13.560
you already did your registration somewhere[br]else.

0:37:13.560,0:37:17.220
We don't physically actually need you to register[br]again.

0:37:17.220,0:37:23.020
I'm less sure about the city-level public[br]WiFi, like TPE-Free, or other city-level WiFi

0:37:23.020,0:37:25.510
because they have a certain level of autonomy.

0:37:25.510,0:37:27.970
We don't actually dictate what they do.

0:37:27.970,0:37:35.720
We just pilot this relaxed login portal thing[br]and also establish corresponding cybersecurity

0:37:35.720,0:37:36.720
rules.

0:37:36.720,0:37:39.510
Maybe the city-level people will also get[br]enlightened.

0:37:39.510,0:37:41.130
We'll see.

0:37:41.130,0:37:46.079
There's eleven people who want to know, "Is[br]it possible to be a citizen in Taiwan and

0:37:46.079,0:37:49.340
interact fully with the government without[br]using any proprietary software?"

0:37:49.340,0:37:53.280
I'm glad you asked because that's one of the[br]cases that I'd like to show.

0:37:53.280,0:37:54.280
[laughs]

0:37:54.280,0:37:59.840
It used to be very, very difficult.

0:37:59.840,0:38:09.110
Just last May actually, there was a petition[br]that talks explicitly about it, very explicit.

0:38:09.110,0:38:15.730
[laughs] Last May, there was an e-petition[br]or a national e-petition system.

0:38:15.730,0:38:20.590
After 5,000 people participate online...You[br]can use email or SMS.

0:38:20.590,0:38:22.860
It's not a real-name basis.

0:38:22.860,0:38:29.600
Basically, after 5,000 people counter-signed[br]a petition, the government is obliged to respond

0:38:29.600,0:38:30.600
to it.

0:38:30.600,0:38:37.170
This petition is by this user experience designer[br]卓志遠, which says that our tax filing

0:38:37.170,0:38:40.970
system is explosively hostile to users.

0:38:40.970,0:38:44.680
It's negative energy in that petition.

0:38:44.680,0:38:48.980
There's more negative energy in the body,[br]which I will spare you the quote.

0:38:48.980,0:38:54.960
Basically, at the time, about 80 percent of[br]comments in that petition discussion area

0:38:54.960,0:38:56.390
is very negative.

0:38:56.390,0:38:59.640
It caused for the resignation of the minister[br]of finance.

0:38:59.640,0:39:04.660
It caused...there's a lot of accusations to[br]the vendors who provide the system, and all

0:39:04.660,0:39:11.770
because in Windows there is a proprietary[br]Windows-based application for tax filing.

0:39:11.770,0:39:17.550
For Linux and for Mac and basically non-Windows[br]systems, there is a Java applet.

0:39:17.550,0:39:24.160
Because last year Oracle Inc. deprecated Java[br]applets, the user experience become very,

0:39:24.160,0:39:25.160
very bad.

0:39:25.160,0:39:27.790
People will see that "Please wait.

0:39:27.790,0:39:30.440
It's still installing some applet components."

0:39:30.440,0:39:34.870
Because the pop-up is by default blocked,[br]so nothing happens.

0:39:34.870,0:39:37.170
After 40 minutes, people are still waiting.

0:39:37.170,0:39:40.160
It really is very, very difficult to use.

0:39:40.160,0:39:46.120
After the e-petition, basically there's a[br]participation officer team in each ministry.

0:39:46.120,0:39:49.210
Each participation office, or POs, is responsible.

0:39:49.210,0:39:54.040
Just like media officer who talk to journalists[br]or a parliamentary officer who talk to MPs,

0:39:54.040,0:39:57.390
POs talk to such emergent petitions.

0:39:57.390,0:40:03.760
By basically saying, I think, not only very[br]quick, like 36 hours after this petition,

0:40:03.760,0:40:09.410
our PO 楊金亨 just posted publicly that[br]everybody who complained about our tax filing

0:40:09.410,0:40:15.910
experience on non-Windows systems is cordially[br]invited to a co-creation workshop, some Friday,

0:40:15.910,0:40:18.050
in the Ministry of finance.

0:40:18.050,0:40:22.800
This is very interesting because just by proposing[br]this invitation...Previously, like 80 percent

0:40:22.800,0:40:24.750
of people were just flaming.

0:40:24.750,0:40:27.560
20 percent of people were saying, "Well, we're[br]using Windows.

0:40:27.560,0:40:28.750
It works kind of OK."

0:40:28.750,0:40:31.440
Nobody really took heed to them.

0:40:31.440,0:40:36.420
After this invitation is sent, 80 percent[br]of people started proposing useful suggestions,

0:40:36.420,0:40:37.820
useful recommendations.

0:40:37.820,0:40:43.750
Only less than 20 percent still remained trolling[br]or flaming people, but people don't pay attention

0:40:43.750,0:40:44.960
to them anymore.

0:40:44.960,0:40:50.550
Basically, what we did was inviting the trolls,[br]who turns out to be not trolls.

0:40:50.550,0:40:52.890
They were just fed up with the tax filing[br]system.

0:40:52.890,0:40:55.310
They had to vent their feelings.

0:40:55.310,0:40:59.140
After they vent their feelings, we all then[br]solicit ideas from them.

0:40:59.140,0:41:01.760
People who can make it to Taipei, make it[br]to Taipei.

0:41:01.760,0:41:06.240
Otherwise, people can still participate using[br]live-streaming.

0:41:06.240,0:41:11.690
One of the key thing here is radical transparency[br]and also accountability, meaning that people

0:41:11.690,0:41:19.450
who say that the words are explosively crowded,[br]we just put that, post it as words are explosively

0:41:19.450,0:41:24.470
crowded, that it is so brilliantly written[br]that people are confused.

0:41:24.470,0:41:26.360
Then we just post it.

0:41:26.360,0:41:31.810
People say instead of designing a system makes[br]people feel better, people don't feel good

0:41:31.810,0:41:36.590
at all when they think about filing taxes,[br]so we should shorten the experience instead

0:41:36.590,0:41:39.930
of trying to make people feel better and so[br]on.

0:41:39.930,0:41:45.810
Basically, people who proposed such ideations[br]online, we just use service design methodologies

0:41:45.810,0:41:51.450
and hold five co-creation workshops with all[br]the different stakeholders involved in the

0:41:51.450,0:41:53.490
tax filing experience.

0:41:53.490,0:41:59.380
This year, the tax filing experience for non-Windows[br]systems is entirely HTML5-based.

0:41:59.380,0:42:02.160
It adheres to the open standards.

0:42:02.160,0:42:09.350
People can just using any platform that can[br]run a browser to access the tax filing system.

0:42:09.350,0:42:16.260
The short answer to this question is that[br]it has become more and more possible while

0:42:16.260,0:42:25.160
we translate or transform existing desktop-oriented[br]or Windows-specific or Java applets into web-based

0:42:25.160,0:42:26.160
situations.

0:42:26.160,0:42:32.620
Now, if you insist that all the JavaScript[br]libraries and CSS libraries that government

0:42:32.620,0:42:38.010
system use has also to be open source or free[br]software, that would take a little bit more

0:42:38.010,0:42:39.010
time.

0:42:39.010,0:42:44.490
It will need the current generation of system[br]to be wholly replaced by post-government digital

0:42:44.490,0:42:47.310
service principle, post-GDSP, systems.

0:42:47.310,0:42:51.210
We are focusing on reducing the load on the[br]client side first.

0:42:51.210,0:42:57.050
At the time, I think you can complete most[br]of the interactions of the governmental issues

0:42:57.050,0:43:02.210
like filing taxes and so on if you're OK with[br]using a free software browser, but there's

0:43:02.210,0:43:04.570
still some proprietary JavaScript code.

0:43:04.570,0:43:07.660
This is the compromise situation we're in[br]at the moment.

0:43:07.660,0:43:12.590
With the rollout of GDSP, we're also looking[br]to make the JavaScript and CSS and also the

0:43:12.590,0:43:18.640
backend systems more non-proprietary.

0:43:18.640,0:43:26.370
Anonymous would like to know the shared objects[br]in the tax filing plugin is not open source.

0:43:26.370,0:43:27.370
Why?

0:43:27.370,0:43:33.720
Because the copyright belongs to, I think,[br]the vendor Chunghwa Telecom.

0:43:33.720,0:43:41.690
Back when we signed the agreement with the[br]Chunghwa Telecom, the GDSP was not in effect.

0:43:41.690,0:43:47.170
The contract, basically, attributed the copyright[br]to the vendor, who only conferred usage right

0:43:47.170,0:43:48.730
to the government and the citizens.

0:43:48.730,0:43:51.220
This is a mistake that we will not repeat.

0:43:51.220,0:43:57.190
At the moment, we don't have the legal recourse[br]for the current generation of plugin systems

0:43:57.190,0:43:59.540
to be relicensed as free software.

0:43:59.540,0:44:00.540
I tried.

0:44:00.540,0:44:01.540
[laughs]

0:44:01.540,0:44:07.760
The easiest way is just for the next version[br]of identification methods, such as the national

0:44:07.760,0:44:11.720
healthcare card, which, by the way, is currently[br]in public consultation.

0:44:11.720,0:44:20.930
If you want to contribute, like you demand[br]free software stack for the entire Medicare

0:44:20.930,0:44:27.380
system, please feel free to go to join.gov.tw,[br]where we are now asking for consultation on

0:44:27.380,0:44:34.360
people who are looking to virtualize their[br]universal Medicare card and/or to use NFC-based

0:44:34.360,0:44:36.170
authentication.

0:44:36.170,0:44:41.680
We want to know about people's preference[br]when it comes to the technology, to the regulations,

0:44:41.680,0:44:45.020
as well as to the total cost of ownership,[br]and also of usage.

0:44:45.020,0:44:51.670
If you feel strongly about it, please do contribute[br]online on Join platform, so that we can say

0:44:51.670,0:44:56.690
to the people writing the contracts that people[br]really feel that it is very important for

0:44:56.690,0:45:01.650
our next-generation authentication methods[br]to be nonproprietary.

0:45:01.650,0:45:07.110
Eight people would like to know, "What is[br]your opinion on e-commerce application refusing

0:45:07.110,0:45:12.690
to operating on restriction-free devices like[br]rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

0:45:12.690,0:45:14.330
Is it fair?"

0:45:14.330,0:45:22.330
Mostly, I think they do this with the call[br]to "fraud prevention."

0:45:22.330,0:45:27.030
[laughs] It's not about fairness.

0:45:27.030,0:45:33.620
I think it is about the choice or the freedom[br]of choice or the liberty of users.

0:45:33.620,0:45:38.800
The reason why GDSP prefers free software[br]is because when it comes to healthcare or

0:45:38.800,0:45:41.610
tax filing, there really is no choice.

0:45:41.610,0:45:47.250
To be a citizen in Taiwan, you have to go[br]through some government-sponsored API endpoints

0:45:47.250,0:45:51.390
to produce some government-sponsored form[br]data and so on.

0:45:51.390,0:45:58.160
Because there is no choice, we really need[br]to be open so that people can hold us to account

0:45:58.160,0:46:02.140
to be more transparent and also innovate on[br]existing solutions.

0:46:02.140,0:46:07.220
For e-commerce applications where there are[br]no de facto monopolies, when people still

0:46:07.220,0:46:14.070
have a choice, the government, at the moment,[br]does not take a stance against the e-commerce

0:46:14.070,0:46:21.200
apps who uses fraud detection or prevention[br]methods that result in incompatibility with

0:46:21.200,0:46:24.980
rooted Androids and jailbroken iDevices.

0:46:24.980,0:46:32.030
I think one of the possible direction out[br]of this dilemma is to basically talk to people

0:46:32.030,0:46:38.570
who work on "fraud prevention," just like[br]how we talked with the high-speed rails and

0:46:38.570,0:46:44.310
the government agencies providing iTaiwan[br]software and WiFi for free.

0:46:44.310,0:46:49.410
We basically said, "You can do your fraud[br]prevention or cybersecurity on another layer

0:46:49.410,0:46:55.010
in this system and not in the particular layer[br]of requiring a captive portal and the MAC

0:46:55.010,0:46:58.820
address, which is very easy to spoof anyway."

0:46:58.820,0:47:06.260
I think just by talking to people like this,[br]or we talk to people who advocate copyright

0:47:06.260,0:47:08.740
protection through blocking of the Internet.

0:47:08.740,0:47:13.220
We say with IPv6, it's getting more and more[br]impossible.

0:47:13.220,0:47:19.480
Watermarking or real-time watermarking methodologies,[br]it infringes on the consumers' or customers'

0:47:19.480,0:47:21.100
experience is less.

0:47:21.100,0:47:26.270
It is actually a better solution overall than[br]just banning entire websites.

0:47:26.270,0:47:27.740
People have legitimate interest.

0:47:27.740,0:47:29.580
There are legitimate stakes.

0:47:29.580,0:47:35.870
As I said, often we think of it as like a[br]tug of war, but in many different cases, it

0:47:35.870,0:47:40.700
is possible actually with some what we call[br]social innovation, an innovation that basically

0:47:40.700,0:47:45.640
takes care of all the different sides of interest[br]and leaves nobody worse off.

0:47:45.640,0:47:53.700
I would encourage people who feel strongly[br]about it to contact your local, friendly e-commerce

0:47:53.700,0:48:00.700
association like [Mandarin] , who does have[br]a forum to talk about things like this.

0:48:00.700,0:48:07.060
We use that forum to talk about fraud detection[br]and prevention of people selling counterfeit

0:48:07.060,0:48:10.080
goods on Facebook to pretty good effect.

0:48:10.080,0:48:14.350
I would also encourage you to contact your[br]local association about it.

0:48:14.350,0:48:19.910
"Can we see any legislator supporting free[br]software in the government movement, like

0:48:19.910,0:48:23.700
Public Money, Public Code from the EFF?"

0:48:23.700,0:48:33.000
In Taiwan, when you see this government, the[br]GDSP, we already say this.

0:48:33.000,0:48:34.550
This is public code.

0:48:34.550,0:48:36.270
This is open data.

0:48:36.270,0:48:41.580
This is open standards and also common APIs.

0:48:41.580,0:48:49.210
We used also a Linux Foundation project called[br]OAS 3.0, which was Swagger, to state that

0:48:49.210,0:48:53.460
all the different systems built, as long as[br]it has a machine-to-machine component, need

0:48:53.460,0:48:57.520
to adhere to this machine-to-machine open[br]API specification.

0:48:57.520,0:49:05.500
The reason why we put an equal amount of attention[br]on the source code license versus the machine-to-machine

0:49:05.500,0:49:09.930
integration is that if we only talk about[br]public code or the license, it is very often

0:49:09.930,0:49:15.440
that a system integrator will deliver something[br]that is technically free software, but it

0:49:15.440,0:49:22.130
depends on, for example, expensive Oracle[br]systems or even more expensive DB2 systems.

0:49:22.130,0:49:28.220
That basically still restricts the reuse across[br]different ministries and agencies.

0:49:28.220,0:49:33.840
By saying for all the import and export, for[br]all the batch-level access, by basically treating

0:49:33.840,0:49:39.030
machine-to-machine accessibility the same[br]way we treat universal access, like for blind

0:49:39.030,0:49:40.030
people...

0:49:40.030,0:49:44.660
We basically say while you may still depend[br]on Oracle or DB2 at a point, the next vendor

0:49:44.660,0:49:51.380
can just build on your API and even batch[br]export what's in this public money-paid database

0:49:51.380,0:49:56.310
and rebuild a service without depending on[br]any proprietary technological stack.

0:49:56.310,0:50:01.770
I would argue that the freedom of portability[br]is as important as freedom to fork and freedom

0:50:01.770,0:50:02.770
to reuse.

0:50:02.770,0:50:04.690
Both are of course very important.

0:50:04.690,0:50:12.300
Constitutionally, I am not supposed to speculate[br]on legislators, but [laughs] there is various

0:50:12.300,0:50:18.920
younger legislators in all the different parties[br]who are also interested in this area.

0:50:18.920,0:50:24.570
Is there any chance, eight people would like[br]to know, that I can urge deans of higher education

0:50:24.570,0:50:28.550
facilities like NCTU to deploy IP version[br]6.

0:50:28.550,0:50:32.410
It's a bootstrapping problem, isn't it? [laughs]

0:50:32.410,0:50:40.630
This year, we see a surge of IPv6 adoption,[br]actually, after TWNIC changed hands and [laughs]

0:50:40.630,0:50:44.550
embrace a very IPv6-first roadmap.

0:50:44.550,0:50:50.230
We see, for example, Chunghwa Telecom has[br]drastically increased the IPv6 connectivity

0:50:50.230,0:50:52.220
of their mobile clients.

0:50:52.220,0:50:58.880
We also see other telecoms and other peering[br]institutions and ISPs starting to adopt this

0:50:58.880,0:51:00.060
trend.

0:51:00.060,0:51:06.310
Once there's sufficient amount of people using[br]the clients that are IPv6-enabled and even

0:51:06.310,0:51:12.460
IPv6-preferred, there will be sufficient pressure[br]then for the service providers to provide

0:51:12.460,0:51:16.950
as good, if not better, service over IPv6.

0:51:16.950,0:51:18.120
I feel your QQ.

0:51:18.120,0:51:23.850
I help you, your QQ. [laughs] 幫 QQ, right?

0:51:23.850,0:51:28.810
I think really, it is up to the students,[br]the clients, and the users of the Internet,

0:51:28.810,0:51:35.400
the last-mile providers to first build a useful[br]and usable IPv6 environment before we can

0:51:35.400,0:51:38.570
then demand the service providers to do so.

0:51:38.570,0:51:41.950
We are seeing pretty good trends as of this[br]year.

0:51:41.950,0:51:47.500
If you come back next year, I think there[br]will be sufficient demand from the user side

0:51:47.500,0:51:56.070
to have the institutional Internet service[br]providers to provide IPv6 also.

0:51:56.070,0:52:02.230
I'm technically out of time, so I'll just[br]take one last question.

0:52:02.230,0:52:08.940
What is my opinion of the European Union General[br]Data Protection Regulation, or the GDPR?

0:52:08.940,0:52:16.800
My opinion is that the GDPR is a much-needed[br]conversation that translates the idea of data

0:52:16.800,0:52:23.670
from what people will confuse with assets,[br]intellectual properties, which are leaky abstractions

0:52:23.670,0:52:30.840
that doesn't mean anything to a, what we call,[br]data agency a relationship-based worldview.

0:52:30.840,0:52:35.370
Basically, as a government institution, if[br]I hold your data, this is a beginning of a

0:52:35.370,0:52:40.210
relationship where you can ask what happens[br]to the data, who can update the data, so it

0:52:40.210,0:52:41.550
reflects the purpose.

0:52:41.550,0:52:46.660
If I try to use the data in any other way[br]other than pure statistics, I need to check

0:52:46.660,0:52:51.400
with you first, so that you can know what's[br]going on, and provide the most up-to-date

0:52:51.400,0:52:52.400
data.

0:52:52.400,0:52:56.680
Instead of leaving just a shadow digital trail[br]that's five years out of date, that results

0:52:56.680,0:52:58.060
in more bias.

0:52:58.060,0:53:03.870
I think data agency, data as a relationship,[br]and also data accountability.

0:53:03.870,0:53:08.390
Accountability interestingly only translate[br]in Mandarin as three different words.

0:53:08.390,0:53:11.800
For people who ask for accountability, it's[br]called 問責.

0:53:11.800,0:53:15.970
For us who are held accountable, it's called[br]當責.

0:53:15.970,0:53:22.460
A system within it that holds both sides together,[br]the relationship, is called 課責機制,

0:53:22.460,0:53:24.490
or an accountability mechanism.

0:53:24.490,0:53:27.800
So 課責 is a relational concept.

0:53:27.800,0:53:31.130
It is not a one-time transactional concept.

0:53:31.130,0:53:37.380
I think GDPR is a much-needed wake-up call[br]for everybody to see data as a relationship,

0:53:37.380,0:53:40.700
as not as some digital asset or intellectual[br]property.

0:53:40.700,0:53:41.700
Thank you very much.

0:53:41.700,0:53:41.701
[applause]