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[music]
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Narrator: The following program is from NET:
The National Educational Television Network.
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Debate, James Baldwin Vs William Buckley.
Subject, "Has the American Dream Been
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Achieved at the Expense of the American
Negro?"
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This debate was held recently at the
Cambridge Union, Cambridge University
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England, and was recorded for use by NET.
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Norman St. John Stevas, M.P:
Well, here we are in the debating hall
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of the Cambridge Union, hundreds of
undergraduates and myself waiting for what
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could prove one of the most exciting
debates in the whole 150 years of the
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union history.
It really... I don't think I have ever
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seen the union so well attended.
There are undergraduates everywhere.
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They're on the benches and on the floor
and on the galleries. And there are a lot
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more outside clambering to get in.
Well, the motion that has drawn this huge
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crowd tonight is this: That the American
Dream has been achieved at the expense
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of the American negro. The debate will
open with two undergraduate speakers,
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one from each side, and then we shall
have the first distinguished guest,
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Mr James Baldwin. The well-known American
novelist who has achieved a world wide
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fame with his novel "Another Country."
Then opposing the motion will be
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Mr. William Buckley, also an American.
Very well-known as a conservative in the
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United States. I must stress a conservative
in the American sense. Author of a book
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called "Up from Liberalism" and editor of
the National Review. One of the earliest
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reporters of Senator Goldwater.
Well, this is the setting of the debate,
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and at any moment now, the president
will be leading in his officers and his
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distinguished guests. He will take his
chair, and the debate will begin.
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[applause]
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President: The motion before the house
tonight is "The American Dream at the
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Expense of the American Negro." The proposer,
Mr. David Haycock of Pembroke College,
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and our opposer, Mr. Jeremy Burford of
Emmanuel College. Mr. James Baldwin
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will speak third. Mr William F. Buckley Jr.
will speak fourth. Mr. Heycock has the
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ear of the house.
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[applause]
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David Heycock: Mr. President, sir, it is
the custom of the house for the first
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speaker in any debate to extend a
formal welcome to any visitors to the
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house. I can honestly say, however, it is
a very great honor to be able to welcome
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to the house this evening Mr. William
Buckley and Mr. James Baldwin.
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Mr. William Buckley has the reputation
of possibly being the most articulate
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conservative in the United States of
America. He was a graduate of Yale,
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and he first gained a reputation for
himself by publishing a book entitled
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"God and Man at Yale."
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[laughter]
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Since then, he has devoted himself to
the secular, and this has included
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Norman Mailer, Kenneth Tynan, Mary McCarthy,
and Fidel Castro, none of whom have come
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out of their confrontations unscathed.
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[laughter]
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At present, his principle occupation is
editing a right-wing newspaper in the
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United States entitled
"The National Review."
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Mr. James Baldwin is hardly in need of
introduction. His reputation both as a
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novelist and as an advocate of civil rights
is international. His third novel
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"Another Country" has been published as
a paperback in England today. Mr. Baldwin
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and Mr. Buckley are both very welcome to
the house this evening.
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[applause]
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Imagine Mr. President, a society which
above all values freedom and equality.
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A society in which artificial barriers to
fulfillment and achievement are unheard
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of. A society in which a man may begin his
life as a rail splitter and end it as president.
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A society in which all men are free in
every sense of the word. Free to live
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where they choose. Free to work where they
choose. Equal in the eyes of the law and
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every public authority. And equal in the eyes
of their fellows. A society in fact which
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intollerence and prejudice are meaningless
terms. Imagine; however, Mr. President, a
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condition of this utopia has been a
persistent and quite deliberate
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exploitation of one ninth of its
inhabitants. That one man in nine has
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been denied those rights, which the rest
of that society takes for granted.
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That one man in nine does not have
a chance for fulfillment or realization
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of his innate potentiality. That one
man in nine cannot promise his
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children a secure future and unlimited
opportunities. Imagine this Mr. President
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and you have, what is in my opinion,
the bitter reality of the American Dream.
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A few weeks ago Martin Luther King had
to hold a non-violent demonstration in
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Selma, Alabama in his drive to register
negro voters. By the end of the week
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of his demonstrations, he was able to
write quite accurately in a national
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fundraising letter from Selma, Alabama
jail, "There are more negros in prison
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with me than there are on the voting
roles." When King wrote that letter,
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three-hundred and thirty-five out of
thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred
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negros in Dallas had the vote.
One percent of the Dallas population.
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After a mass march to the court house,
two-hundred-and-thirty-seven negros,
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King among them, were arrested.
The following day, four-hundred-and
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seventy children, who had deserted
their classrooms to protest against
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King's arrest, were charged with juvenile
delinquency.
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[laughter]
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Thirty-six adults on the same day were
charged with contempt of court for
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picketing the court house while
state circuit court was in session.
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On the following day, a hundred-and
eleven people were arrested on the
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same charge despite their claim that
they merely wanted to see the voting
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registrar. Four-hundred students were
arrested and taken to the armory,
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where many of them spent the night
on a cold cement floor. The following
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date the demonstrations spread to
Marion, Alabama. In Marion, negros
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outnumbered whites by eleven-and
a-half thousand to six-thousand people
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and yet, only three hundred are registered
to vote. Negros in Marion were anxious
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to test the public accommodations section
of the civil rights law. They entered a
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drug store and there they were served
with Coca Cola laced with salt and were
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told that hamburgers had risen to five
dollars each. After the arrest of fifteen
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negros for protesting against this
treatment, seven hundred negros
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boycotted their classes the next day
and marched in orderly fashion to the
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jail. There, they sang civil rights songs
until they were warned by a state trooper
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that they would be arrested if they sung
one more song. Of course, they sung
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another song, and of course, all seven
hundred were arrested. American
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society has felt fit to use negro labor.
It has felt fit to use the blood of the
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negro in two world wars. It has felt fit to
listen to his music. It has felt fit to laugh
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at his jokes, and yet, as far as I am
concerned, it has never felt fit to
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give the American negro a fair deal;
and for this reason Mr. President,
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I will beg leave to propose the motion
that the American dream is at the expense
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of the American negro.
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[applause]
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President: I now call Mr. Jeremy Burford of Emmanuel College to oppose the motion.
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[applause]
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Narrator: Now, we have Mr. Jeremy
Burford of Emmanuel College who
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is the first undergraduate opposing
the motion.
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Jeremy Burford: James Baldwin is well
known as one of the most vivid and
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articulate writers about the negro
problem in America. Mr. Baldwin
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had a difficult childhood, and he
has personally himself suffered
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discrimination and ill treatment
of a sort in America, and I would
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like to say at this time that it is
not the purpose of this side of
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the house to condone that in any
way at all. It is not our purpose to
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oppose civil rights. It is our purpose
to oppose this motion. [audience: here here]
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[laughter]
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Thank you, sir. Come and collect
your fee afterwards.
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[laughter and applause]
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This side of the house denies that the
American dream has in any way been
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helped by this undoubted inequality
and suffering of the negro.
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We maintain that in fact this has hindered
the American Dream, and if there had
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been equality, if there had been true
freedom of opportunity, the American
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dream would be very much more advance
than it is now. If the American dream has
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made any progress, and I think it has,
it has been made in spite of the suffering
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and inequality of the American negro and
not because of it. Now it is also implied
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in this motion that the American Dream is
encouraging and worsening the suffering
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of the American negro. This is emphatically
not the case. The American Dream,
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the American economic prosperity and
respect for civil liberties has been the
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main factor in bringing about the undoubted
improvement in race relations in America
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in the last twenty years; and Professor
Arnold Rose who was the author of the "Negro
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in America," which is perhaps the definitive
work on the subject, who is also a
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contributor of what is called "The Freedom
Pamphlet". So I should imagine if he has
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any bias at all, it is in favor of the negro.
He's said that this improvement in race
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relations will be seen in years to come as
remarkably quick, and he has put it down
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to three main causes: increased
industrialization and technical advance,
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the increased social mobility of the
American people, and the economic
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prosperity. And I would put it to this
house that that industrialization and
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economic prosperity are two of the main
ingredients of the American dream and
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at the same time--again, I do not want to
say that the negro in America is treated
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fairly--but at the same time, the average
per capita income of negros in America
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is exactly the same as the average per
capita income of people in Great Britain.
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Now, I found that absolutely amazing.
[laughter]
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[laughter]
I understand that some of you do as well;
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So I've got the reference here from the
United States News and World Report
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of July the 22nd 1963, in which it points
out- [Man in the audience interrupts]
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This will have to be the last interruption
I take because time is running short.
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Audience member: Mr. President. Now a
point of information, is this being a talking
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of real income or money income?
[Audience: here here, applause.]
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I am talking of money income. I would not
wish to disguise that. I would also say that
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in terms of this, there are only five
countries in the world where the income
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is higher than that of the American negro,
and they do not include countries like
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West Germany and France and Japan.
Now, there are in America thirty-five
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negro millionaires. There are negro six thousand
doctors and so on. Now I do not by saying
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this wish to emphasize that the negro is
fairly treated. I merely wish to try and
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convey a more realistic and objective
account of the situation of the negro.
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I agree that there are negros who are
very poor indeed, such as the old
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gentlemen in the south who was talking
about some of his wealthier brethren and
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he was saying "Yes. Some of these rich
negros they put on airs like the bottom
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figure of a fetch, and the bigger they try
to be, the smaller they really are."
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I would repeat Mr. President, sir, in the
last minute that I have that this debate
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is not whether civil rights should be
extended to American negros or not;
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if it were it would be a very easy
motion to argue for and a very easy
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motion to vote for. The debate tonight
concerns whether the American Dream
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is at the expense of the American negro.
That is where the American negro has paid
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for the American dream with a suffering
or whether the American dream has
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furthered the negro inequality, and
I would deny those things to precept.
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I would say that negro inequality has
hindered the American dream, and
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I would say that the American dream
has been very important indeed in
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furthering civil rights and in furthering
freedom for the American negro.
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Mr. President, sir, I beg to oppose
the motion.
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[applause]
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President: It is now with very
great pleasure and a very great sense of
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honor that I call Mr. James Baldwin
to speak third to this motion.
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[applause]
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Narrator: Now we have Mr. James Baldwin,
the star of the evening, who has been
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sitting, listening attentively and getting
a wonderful reception here in the
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Cambridge Union. From members, enthusiasm from all sides of the house for
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Mr. Baldwin, who has been listening to the arguments. Now will bring the voice of actual
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experience to the debate.
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James Baldwin: Good evening.
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[laughter]
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I find myself, not for the first time, in
the position of a kind of Jeremiah.
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For example, I don’t disagree with
Mr. Burford that the inequality
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suffered by the American Negro
population of the United States has hindered
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the American dream. Indeed, it has.
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I quarrell with some other things he
has to say. The other, deeper, element of
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a certain awkwardness I feel has to do
with one’s point of view.
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I have to put it that way – one’s sense,
one’s system of reality.
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It would seem to me the proposition
before the House, and I would put it
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that way, is the American Dream at the
expense of the American Negro,
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or the American Dream is at
the expense of the American Negro.
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Is the question hideously loaded,
and then one’s response to that question
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– one’s reaction to that question –
has to depend on effect and, in effect,
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where you find yourself in the world,
what your sense of reality is,
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what your system of reality is.
That is, it depends on assumptions which
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we hold so deeply so as to
be scarcely aware of them.
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Are white South African or
Mississippi sharecropper, or
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Mississippi sheriff, or a Frenchman
driven out of Algeria, all have, at bottom,
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a system of reality which compels
them to, for example, in the case of the
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French exile from Algeria, to offend
French reasons from having ruled Algeria.
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The Mississippi or Alabama sheriff,
who really does believe, when he’s facing
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a Negro boy or girl, that this woman,
this man, this child must be insane to
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attack the system to which he owes
his entire identity. Of course, to
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such a person, the proposition which
we are trying to discuss here tonight
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does not exist. And on the other hand,
I, have to speak as one of the people
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who’ve been most attacked by what
we now must here call the Western or
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European system of reality. What white
people in the world, what we call
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white supremacy – I hate to say it here
– comes from Europe.
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That's how it got to America. Beneath
then, whatever one’s reaction to this
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proposition is, has to be the question
of whether or not civilizations can
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be considered, as such, equal, or
whether one’s civilization has the right
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to overtake and subjugate, and, in fact,
to destroy another.
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Now, what happens when that happens.
Leaving aside all the physical facts that
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one can quote. Leaving aside, rape
or murder. Leaving aside the bloody
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00:17:54,329 --> 00:17:59,651
catalog of oppression, which we
are in one way too familiar with already,
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what this does to the subjugated,
the most private, the most serious
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00:18:04,816 --> 00:18:09,994
thing this does to the subjugated,
is to destroy his sense of reality.
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00:18:09,994 --> 00:18:16,124
It destroys, for example, his father’s
authority over him. His father can no
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00:18:16,285 --> 00:18:19,792
longer tell him anything, because
the past has disappeared, and his
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00:18:19,792 --> 00:18:24,236
father has no power in the world.
This means, in the case of an
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00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:29,603
American Negro, born in that
glittering republic, and the moment you
219
00:18:29,603 --> 00:18:32,076
are born, since you don’t
know any better,
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00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:36,013
every stick and stone and
every face is white.
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And since you have not yet seen
a mirror, you suppose that you
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are, too. It comes as a great shock
around the age of 5, or 6, or 7, to
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00:18:47,535 --> 00:18:51,158
discover that the flag to which
you have pledged allegiance, along with
224
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everybody else, has not pledged
allegiance to you. It comes as a
225
00:18:56,006 --> 00:18:59,229
great shock to discover that Gary
Cooper killing off the Indians, when you
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00:18:59,229 --> 00:19:06,499
were rooting for Gary Cooper,
that the Indians were you. It comes as a
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00:19:06,499 --> 00:19:11,172
great shock to discover that the
country which is your birthplace and to
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00:19:11,172 --> 00:19:17,078
which you owe your life and your identity,
has not, in its whole system of reality,
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00:19:17,078 --> 00:19:24,594
evovled any place for you. The
disaffection, the demoralization, and the
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00:19:24,594 --> 00:19:29,794
gap between one person and another
only on the basis of the color of their
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00:19:29,794 --> 00:19:35,977
skin, begins there and accelerates
– accelerates throughout a whole lifetime
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00:19:35,977 --> 00:19:40,338
– to the present when you realize
you’re thirty and are having a terrible
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00:19:40,338 --> 00:19:48,176
time managing to trust your
countrymen. By the time you are thirty,
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00:19:48,176 --> 00:19:55,654
you have been through a certain
kind of mill. And the most serious effect
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00:19:55,654 --> 00:19:59,839
of the mill you’ve been through is,
again, not the catalog of disaster,
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00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:07,137
the policemen, the taxi drivers,
the waiters, the landlady, the landlord,
237
00:20:07,137 --> 00:20:12,354
the banks, the insurance companies,
the millions of details, twenty four
238
00:20:12,448 --> 00:20:17,492
hours of every day, which spell
out to you that you are a worthless
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00:20:17,492 --> 00:20:23,185
human being. It is not that. It’s by
that time that you’ve begun to see
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00:20:23,185 --> 00:20:28,373
it happening, in your daughter or your
son, or your niece or your nephew.
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00:20:28,373 --> 00:20:33,370
You are thirty by now and nothing you
have done has helped to
242
00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:38,134
escape the trap. But what is worse
than that, is that nothing you
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00:20:38,134 --> 00:20:44,076
have done, and as far as you can tell,
nothing you can do, will save your
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00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:49,721
son or your daughter from meeting
the same disaster and not
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00:20:49,721 --> 00:20:58,956
impossibly coming to the same
end. Now, we’re speaking about
246
00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:06,189
expense. I suppose there are
several ways to address oneself,
247
00:21:06,189 --> 00:21:15,707
to some attempt to find what that
word means here. Let me put it
248
00:21:15,707 --> 00:21:23,042
this way, that from a very literal
point of view, the harbors and the
249
00:21:23,042 --> 00:21:30,992
ports, and the railroads of the
country–the economy,
250
00:21:30,992 --> 00:21:39,966
especially of the Southern
states–could not conceivably be
251
00:21:39,966 --> 00:21:45,639
what it has become, if they had
not had, and do not still have,
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00:21:45,639 --> 00:21:55,215
indeed for so long, for many generations,
cheap labor. I am stating very
253
00:21:55,215 --> 00:22:02,754
seriously, and this is not an
overstatement: I picked the cotton,
254
00:22:02,754 --> 00:22:13,254
I carried it to the market,
and I built the railroads under
255
00:22:13,254 --> 00:22:19,737
someone else’s whip for nothing.
For nothing.
256
00:22:19,737 --> 00:22:26,815
The Southern oligarchy, which has
still today so very much power in
257
00:22:26,815 --> 00:22:31,384
Washington, and therefore some
power in the world, was created
258
00:22:31,384 --> 00:22:37,217
by my labor and my sweat, and the
violation of my women and the murder of
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00:22:37,217 --> 00:22:45,359
my children. This, in the land of
the free, and the home of the brave.
260
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And no one can challenge that statement.
It is a matter of historical record.
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00:22:50,604 --> 00:22:59,645
In another way, this dream, and we’ll
get to the dream in a moment,
262
00:22:59,645 --> 00:23:06,581
is at the expense of the American
Negro. You watched this in the Deep South
263
00:23:06,581 --> 00:23:15,426
in great relief. But not only in the
Deep South. In the Deep South, you
264
00:23:15,426 --> 00:23:17,997
are dealing with a sheriff or a
landlord, or a landlady or the
265
00:23:17,997 --> 00:23:28,204
girl of the Western Union desk, and
she doesn’t know quite who she’s
266
00:23:28,204 --> 00:23:31,666
dealing with, by which I mean,
that if you’re not a part of the town,
267
00:23:31,666 --> 00:23:38,514
and if you are a Nothern Nigger,
it shows in millions of ways.
268
00:23:38,514 --> 00:23:43,550
So she simply knows that it’s an
unknown quantity, and she wants to
269
00:23:43,550 --> 00:23:46,730
have nothing to do with it because
she won’t talk to you, you have
270
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:49,790
to wait for a while to get your telegram.
OK, we all know this. We’ve all
271
00:23:49,790 --> 00:23:54,005
been through it and, by the time you
get to be a man, it’s very easy to deal with.
272
00:23:54,005 --> 00:23:57,683
But what is happening in the poor
woman, the poor man’s mind is
273
00:23:57,683 --> 00:24:06,474
this: they’ve been raised to believe,
and by now they helplessly believe,
274
00:24:06,474 --> 00:24:11,743
that no matter how terrible their lives
may be, and their lives have been
275
00:24:11,743 --> 00:24:17,154
quite terrible, and no matter how
far they fall, no matter what disaster
276
00:24:17,154 --> 00:24:19,986
overtakes them, they have one
enormous knowledge in
277
00:24:19,986 --> 00:24:24,856
consolation, which is like a heavenly
revelation: at least, they are not Black.
278
00:24:24,856 --> 00:24:33,504
Now, I suggest that of all the terrible
things that can happen to a
279
00:24:33,504 --> 00:24:37,840
human being, that is one of the worst.
I suggest that what has happened
280
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,045
to white Southerners is in some ways,
after all, much worse than
281
00:24:42,045 --> 00:24:51,624
what has happened to Negroes
there because Sheriff Clark in
282
00:24:51,624 --> 00:24:58,932
Selma, Alabama, cannot be considered
– you know, no one can be
283
00:24:58,932 --> 00:25:00,728
dismissed as a total monster.
284
00:25:00,728 --> 00:25:05,498
I’m sure he loves his wife, his children.
I’m sure, you know, he likes to
285
00:25:05,498 --> 00:25:11,577
get drunk. You know, after all, one’s got
to assume he is visibly a man like me.
286
00:25:11,577 --> 00:25:21,348
But he doesn’t know what drives
him to use the club, to menace with the
287
00:25:21,348 --> 00:25:25,224
gun and to use the cattle prod.
Something awful must have happened to
288
00:25:25,224 --> 00:25:28,793
a human being to be able to put
a cattle prod against a
289
00:25:28,793 --> 00:25:32,464
woman’s breasts, for example.
What happens to the woman is ghastly.
290
00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:37,933
What happens to the man who
does it is in some ways much, much worse.
291
00:25:37,933 --> 00:25:47,352
This is being done, after all, not a hundred
years ago, but in 1965, in a country
292
00:25:47,473 --> 00:25:51,884
which is blessed with what we call
prosperity, a word we won’t examine
293
00:25:51,884 --> 00:25:59,194
too closely; with a certain kind of
social coherence, which calls itself a
294
00:25:59,194 --> 00:26:04,658
civilized nation, and which espouses
the notion of the freedom of the
295
00:26:04,658 --> 00:26:10,466
world. And it is perfectly true from
the point of view now
296
00:26:10,466 --> 00:26:16,335
simply of an American Negro. Any American
Negro watching this, no matter
297
00:26:16,335 --> 00:26:19,504
where he is, from the vantage point of
Harlem, which is another terrible
298
00:26:19,504 --> 00:26:24,494
place, has to say to himself, in spite of
what the government says
299
00:26:24,494 --> 00:26:29,488
– the government says we can’t do
anything about it – but if those were
300
00:26:29,488 --> 00:26:33,962
white people being murdered in
Mississippi work farms, being carried
301
00:26:33,962 --> 00:26:37,784
off to jail, if those were white children
running up and down the streets,
302
00:26:37,784 --> 00:26:41,303
the government would find some
way of doing something about it.
303
00:26:41,303 --> 00:26:45,464
We have a civil rights bill now
where an amendment, the
304
00:26:45,464 --> 00:26:49,444
fifteenth amendment, nearly a hundred
years ago – I hate to sound again
305
00:26:49,444 --> 00:26:52,438
like an Old Testament prophet –
but if the amendment was not
306
00:26:52,438 --> 00:26:55,646
honored then, I would have any
reason to believe in the civil rights
307
00:26:55,646 --> 00:26:57,286
bill will be honored now.
308
00:26:57,286 --> 00:27:02,424
And after all one’s been there, since
before, you know, a lot of other
309
00:27:02,424 --> 00:27:10,122
people got there. If one has got to
prove one’s title to the land, isn’t
310
00:27:10,122 --> 00:27:15,440
four hundred years enough? Four
hundred years? At least three wars?
311
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,372
The American soil is full of the
corpses of my ancestors.
312
00:27:20,633 --> 00:27:25,772
Why is my freedom or my citizenship,
or my right to live there, how
313
00:27:25,772 --> 00:27:31,741
is it conceivably a question now?
And I suggest further, and in the
314
00:27:31,741 --> 00:27:37,328
same way, the moral life of Alabama
sheriffs and poor Alabama ladies
315
00:27:37,328 --> 00:27:41,729
– white ladies – their moral lives
have been destroyed by the
316
00:27:41,729 --> 00:27:47,322
plague called color, that the American
sense of reality has been corrupted by it.
317
00:27:47,322 --> 00:27:53,366
At the risk of sounding excessive,
what I always felt, when I finally
318
00:27:53,366 --> 00:27:58,369
left the country, and found myself abroad,
in other places, and watched
319
00:27:58,369 --> 00:28:03,409
the Americans abroad – and these are
my countrymen – and I do
320
00:28:03,409 --> 00:28:08,115
care about them, and even if I didn’t,
there is something between us.
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00:28:08,115 --> 00:28:14,823
We have the same shorthand, I know,
if I look at a boy or a girl from Tennessee,
322
00:28:14,823 --> 00:28:18,162
where they came from in Tennessee
and what that means.
323
00:28:18,162 --> 00:28:21,962
No Englishman knows that. No Frenchmen.
No one in the world knows that except
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00:28:21,962 --> 00:28:24,342
another black man who comes
from the same place.
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00:28:25,262 --> 00:28:32,852
One watches these lonely people.
Denying the only kin they have.
326
00:28:32,852 --> 00:28:36,432
We talk about integration in America
as thought it were some great new
327
00:28:36,432 --> 00:28:40,622
conundrum. The problem in America
is that we have been integrated for
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00:28:40,622 --> 00:28:46,717
a very long time. Put me next to any
African and you will see what I mean.
329
00:28:46,717 --> 00:28:52,607
My grandmother was not a racist.
What we are not facing ...
330
00:28:54,647 --> 00:28:58,732
is the results of what we've done.
331
00:28:58,732 --> 00:29:04,952
What one begs the American people to do
for all our sakes is simply to
332
00:29:04,952 --> 00:29:07,542
accept our history.
333
00:29:07,542 --> 00:29:12,052
I was there not only as a slave
but also as a concubine.
334
00:29:12,072 --> 00:29:16,792
One knows the power afterall which
can be used against another person
335
00:29:16,792 --> 00:29:18,922
who has got absolute power over
that person.
336
00:29:21,872 --> 00:29:24,602
It seemed to me when I watched
Americans in Europe what they
337
00:29:24,778 --> 00:29:30,863
didn’t know about Europeans was
what they didn’t know about me.
338
00:29:30,863 --> 00:29:34,545
They weren’t trying, for example, to be
nasty to the French girl, or
339
00:29:34,545 --> 00:29:39,312
rude to the French waiter. They
didn’t know they hurt their feelings.
340
00:29:39,312 --> 00:29:43,715
They didn’t have any sense this
particular woman, this particular man,
341
00:29:43,715 --> 00:29:46,246
though they spoke another language
and had different manners
342
00:29:46,246 --> 00:29:51,284
and ways, was a human being. And
they walked over them, the same kind
343
00:29:51,284 --> 00:29:59,628
of bland ignorance, condescension,
charming and cheerful with which
344
00:29:59,628 --> 00:30:03,833
they’ve always pat me on the head
and called me Shine and were upset
345
00:30:03,833 --> 00:30:14,739
when I was upset. What is relevant
about this is that whereas forty years ago
346
00:30:14,739 --> 00:30:22,549
when I was born, the question of having
to deal with what is unspoken
347
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:28,049
by the subjugated, what is never said
to the master, of ever
348
00:30:28,049 --> 00:30:31,456
having to deal with this reality
was a very remote possibility.
349
00:30:31,456 --> 00:30:35,403
It was in no one’s mind. When I was growing up, I was taught in
350
00:30:35,403 --> 00:30:39,665
American history books, that Africa had no history, and neither did I.
351
00:30:39,665 --> 00:30:47,902
That I was a savage about whom the less said, the better, who had been
352
00:30:47,902 --> 00:30:55,587
saved by Europe and brought to America. And, of course, I believed it.
353
00:30:55,587 --> 00:31:01,293
I didn’t have much choice.
Those were the only books there were.
354
00:31:01,293 --> 00:31:05,322
Everyone else seemed to agree.
355
00:31:05,322 --> 00:31:09,842
If you walk out of Harlem, ride out
of Harlem, downtown, the world
356
00:31:09,842 --> 00:31:15,402
agrees what you see is much bigger,
cleaner, whiter, richer, safer
357
00:31:15,402 --> 00:31:21,621
than where you are. They collect
the garbage. People obviously can
358
00:31:21,621 --> 00:31:25,312
pay their life insurance. Their children
look happy, safe. You’re not.
359
00:31:25,312 --> 00:31:31,289
And you go back home, and it would
seem that, of course, that it’s an act
360
00:31:31,289 --> 00:31:38,527
of God that this is true! That you
belong where white people have put you.
361
00:31:38,527 --> 00:31:45,403
It is only since the Second World War
that there’s been a
362
00:31:45,403 --> 00:31:48,872
counter-image in the world. And that
image did not come about through
363
00:31:48,872 --> 00:31:53,807
any legislation or part of any
American government, but through
364
00:31:53,807 --> 00:32:01,776
the fact that Africa was suddenly
on the stage of the world, and Africans
365
00:32:01,776 --> 00:32:05,196
had to be dealt with in a way they’d
never been dealt with before.
366
00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:09,688
This gave an American Negro for
the first time a sense of himself
367
00:32:09,688 --> 00:32:19,728
beyond the savage or a clown. It has
created and will create a great
368
00:32:19,728 --> 00:32:24,810
many conundrums. One of the great
things that the white world
369
00:32:24,810 --> 00:32:29,615
does not know, but I think I do know,
is that Black people are just like
370
00:32:29,615 --> 00:32:34,386
everybody else. One has used the
myth of Negro and the myth of color
371
00:32:34,386 --> 00:32:39,288
to pretend and to assume that you
were dealing with, essentially,
372
00:32:39,288 --> 00:32:43,755
with something exotic, bizarre,
and practically, according to human laws,
373
00:32:43,755 --> 00:32:49,074
unknown. Alas, it is not true.
We’re also mercenaries,
374
00:32:49,074 --> 00:32:54,662
dictators, murderers, liars.
We are human too.
375
00:32:54,662 --> 00:33:01,279
What is crucial here is that unless
we can manage to accept, establish
376
00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:08,420
some kind of dialog between those
people whom I pretend have paid
377
00:33:08,420 --> 00:33:14,790
for the American dream and those
other people who have not achieved it,
378
00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:23,362
we will be in terrible trouble. I want
to say, at the end, the last, is that is
379
00:33:23,362 --> 00:33:28,335
that is what concerns me most. We are
sitting in this room, and we are all,
380
00:33:28,335 --> 00:33:32,347
at least I’d like to think we are,
relatively civilized, and we can talk to
381
00:33:32,347 --> 00:33:38,717
each other at least on certain levels
so that we could walk out of here
382
00:33:38,717 --> 00:33:43,213
assuming that the measure of our
enlightenment, or at least, our
383
00:33:43,213 --> 00:33:46,655
politeness, has some effect on
the world. It may not.
384
00:33:46,655 --> 00:33:53,298
I remember, for example, when the
ex Attorney General, Mr. Robert Kennedy,
385
00:33:53,298 --> 00:34:01,239
said that it was conceivable that in
forty years, in America, we might have
386
00:34:01,239 --> 00:34:08,079
a Negro president. That sounded
like a very emancipated statement,
387
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:14,008
I suppose, to white people. They were
not in Harlem when this statement
388
00:34:14,008 --> 00:34:19,648
was first heard. And they’re not here,
and possibly will never hear the laughter
389
00:34:19,648 --> 00:34:22,129
and the bitterness, and the scorn
with which this statement was greeted.
390
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:25,860
From the point of view of the man
in the Harlem barber shop, Bobby Kennedy
391
00:34:25,860 --> 00:34:32,506
only got here yesterday, and he’s
already on his way to the presidency.
392
00:34:32,506 --> 00:34:36,837
We’ve been here for four hundred
years and now he tells us that maybe
393
00:34:36,837 --> 00:34:42,541
in forty years, if you’re good,
we may let you become president.
394
00:34:42,541 --> 00:34:52,922
What is dangerous here is the turning
away from – the turning away from
395
00:34:52,922 --> 00:34:59,499
– anything any white American says.
The reason for the political hesitation,
396
00:34:59,499 --> 00:35:03,694
in spite of the Johnson landslide is
that one has been betrayed by American
397
00:35:03,694 --> 00:35:08,707
politicians for so long. And I am a
grown man and perhaps I can be
398
00:35:08,707 --> 00:35:16,767
reasoned with. I certainly hope I can be.
But I don’t know, and neither does
399
00:35:16,767 --> 00:35:21,254
Martin Luther King, none of us know
how to deal with those other people
400
00:35:21,254 --> 00:35:24,191
whom the white world has so long
ignored, who don’t believe anything
401
00:35:24,191 --> 00:35:30,688
the white world says and don’t entirely
believe anything I or Martin is saying.
402
00:35:30,688 --> 00:35:34,891
And one can’t blame them. You watch
what has happened to
403
00:35:34,891 --> 00:35:42,247
them in less than twenty years.
It seems to me that the City of New York,
404
00:35:42,247 --> 00:35:49,744
for example – this is my last point –
It’s had Negroes in it for a very long time.
405
00:35:49,744 --> 00:35:55,886
If the city of New York were able, as it
has indeed been able, in the last fifteen
406
00:35:55,886 --> 00:36:01,029
years to reconstruct itself, tear down
buildings and raise great new ones,
407
00:36:01,029 --> 00:36:07,829
downtown and for money, and has
done nothing whatever except build
408
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:15,299
housing projects in the ghetto for the
Negroes. And of course, Negroes hate it.
409
00:36:15,299 --> 00:36:18,843
Presently the property does indeed
deteriorate because the children
410
00:36:18,843 --> 00:36:24,941
cannot bear it. They want to get out
of the ghetto. If the American pretensions
411
00:36:24,941 --> 00:36:33,617
were based on more solid, a more
honest assessment of life and of
412
00:36:33,617 --> 00:36:39,094
themselves, it would not mean for Negroes
when someone says “Urban Renewal”
413
00:36:39,094 --> 00:36:41,859
that Negroes can simply are going
to be thrown out into the streets.
414
00:36:41,859 --> 00:36:45,345
This is just what it does mean now. This is
not an act of God. We’re dealing with
415
00:36:45,345 --> 00:36:52,490
a society made and ruled by men.
Had the American Negro had not
416
00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:56,239
been present in America, I am convinced
the history of the American labor
417
00:36:56,396 --> 00:36:59,181
movement would be much
more edifying than it is.
418
00:36:59,181 --> 00:37:05,783
It is a terrible thing for an entire
people to surrender to the notion
419
00:37:05,783 --> 00:37:12,061
that one-ninth of its population is beneath
them. And until that moment,
420
00:37:12,061 --> 00:37:18,277
until the moment comes when we, the
Americans, we, the American people,
421
00:37:18,277 --> 00:37:23,305
are able to accept the fact, that I have
to accept, for example, that my ancestors
422
00:37:23,305 --> 00:37:28,617
are both white and Black. That on that
continent we are trying to forge a new
423
00:37:28,617 --> 00:37:34,814
identity for which we need each other
and that I am not a ward of America.
424
00:37:34,814 --> 00:37:40,512
I am not an object of missionary charity. I am
one of the people who built the
425
00:37:40,512 --> 00:37:46,772
country–until this moment there is scarcely
any hope for the American dream,
426
00:37:46,772 --> 00:37:54,498
because the people who are denied
participation in it, by their very presence,
427
00:37:54,498 --> 00:37:59,876
will wreck it. And if that happens it is a
very grave moment for the West.
428
00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:00,898
Thank you.
429
00:38:00,898 --> 00:38:22,267
[standing ovation, loud applause]
430
00:38:22,267 --> 00:38:28,720
Narrator: Members. Moving moment now.
The whole of the union standing and
431
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:34,945
applauding this magnificent speech of
James Baldwin. Never seen this happen
432
00:38:34,945 --> 00:38:41,017
before in the union in all the years
that I have known it. Baldwin smiling,
433
00:38:41,017 --> 00:38:46,493
obviously delighted by his reception,
tremendously moved by it.
434
00:38:46,493 --> 00:39:05,103
[applause]
435
00:39:05,103 --> 00:39:07,785
President: I am now very grateful
and very pleased to be able to call a
436
00:39:07,785 --> 00:39:11,239
Mr. William F Buckley Jr. to speak forth
to this motion.
437
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:20,254
[applause]
438
00:39:20,379 --> 00:39:24,126
Narrator: Now we have Mr. William Buckley,
who will need all his skill to establish a
439
00:39:24,126 --> 00:39:27,856
a ascendancy over his audience, which
has clearly been deeply moved by
440
00:39:27,856 --> 00:39:31,564
the eloquence and personal experience
of the preceding speaker.
441
00:39:31,564 --> 00:39:34,381
William Buckley: Thank you Mr. President,
Baldwin, Heycock, Burford, gentlemen.
442
00:39:39,391 --> 00:39:47,316
It seems to me that of all the indictments
Mr. Baldwin has made of America
443
00:39:47,402 --> 00:39:58,894
here tonight and in his copious literature
of protest, the one that is of most
444
00:39:58,894 --> 00:40:11,508
striking involves in effect the refusal
of the American community to treat
445
00:40:11,508 --> 00:40:19,647
him other than as a negro. The
American community has refused to
446
00:40:19,647 --> 00:40:27,534
do this. The American community
almost everywhere he goes treats
447
00:40:27,534 --> 00:40:36,061
him with the kind of unction, of
a kind of satisfaction at posturing
448
00:40:36,061 --> 00:40:44,648
carefully for his flagellation of
our civilization. That indeed our
449
00:40:44,648 --> 00:40:51,210
white populi commands the contempt
which he so eloquently showers upon us.
450
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:57,883
It is impossible in my judgment to deal
with the indictment of Mr. Baldwin
451
00:40:57,961 --> 00:41:03,489
unless one is prepared to deal with him as
a white man. Unless one is prepared to
452
00:41:03,489 --> 00:41:08,425
say to him the fact that your skin is
black is utterly irrelevant to the
453
00:41:08,425 --> 00:41:14,304
arguments that you raised or the
fact that you sit here as is your
454
00:41:14,304 --> 00:41:20,367
rhetorical devise and lay the entire
waves of the negro ordeal on your
455
00:41:20,367 --> 00:41:26,410
own shoulders is irrelevant to the
argument we are here to discuss.
456
00:41:29,070 --> 00:41:36,242
The bravanmon of Mr. Baldwin's charges
against America are not so much that our
457
00:41:36,298 --> 00:41:41,737
civilization has failed him or/and his
people. That our ideals are
458
00:41:41,737 --> 00:41:48,772
insufficient or that we have no
ideals. That our ideals are rather
459
00:41:48,772 --> 00:41:54,372
some sort of a superficial coating
of which we come up with at any
460
00:41:54,372 --> 00:41:58,756
given moment in order to justify
our whatever commercial and
461
00:41:58,756 --> 00:42:04,442
agnoxious experiment we are engaged
in. Of us, Mr. Baldwin can write his
462
00:42:04,442 --> 00:42:10,362
book "The Fire Next Time" in which
he threatens America. He didn't
463
00:42:10,379 --> 00:42:14,060
in writing that book speak with a
British accent that he used
464
00:42:14,193 --> 00:42:17,700
exclusively tonight, in which he
threatened America with a
465
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:27,434
necessity for us to jettison...
for us to jettison our entire
466
00:42:27,434 --> 00:42:32,945
civilization, the only thing that the
white man has that the negro should
467
00:42:33,001 --> 00:42:36,015
want he said is power.
468
00:42:36,525 --> 00:42:42,060
And he is treated from coast to coast of
the United States with a kind of unctuous
469
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:46,664
[Narrator speaking over him: inaudible]
470
00:42:46,664 --> 00:42:49,850
... that goes beyond anything that was
ever expected from some of the most
471
00:42:49,850 --> 00:42:54,100
servile negro creature by a southern
family. I propose to pay him the honor
472
00:42:54,100 --> 00:43:00,711
this night of saying to him, Mr. Baldwin,
I am going to speak to you without any
473
00:43:00,711 --> 00:43:08,035
reference whatever to those surrounding
protections which you are used to
474
00:43:08,035 --> 00:43:12,673
in virtue of the fact that you are a negro.
Here we need to ask the question,
475
00:43:12,673 --> 00:43:17,132
what in fact shall we do about it,
Mr. President? What shall we in America
476
00:43:17,132 --> 00:43:25,320
try to do for instance to eliminate
those psychic humiliations which I join
477
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,052
Mr. Baldwin in believing are the very
worst aspects of this discrimination?
478
00:43:30,052 --> 00:43:35,344
You found it a source of considerable
merth to laugh away these statistics
479
00:43:35,344 --> 00:43:39,820
of my colleague, Mr. Burford. I don't
think they are insignificant. They
480
00:43:39,820 --> 00:43:45,010
certainly are not insignificant in a world
that attaches a considerable importance
481
00:43:45,010 --> 00:43:53,252
to material progress. It is in fact the case
that seven-tenths of the white income
482
00:43:53,252 --> 00:43:57,359
in the United States is equal to the
income that is made by the average
483
00:43:57,359 --> 00:44:02,865
negro. I don't think this is an irrelevant
statistic, ladies and gentleman. It takes
484
00:44:02,865 --> 00:44:06,796
the capitalization of fifteen, sixteen,
seventeen thousand dollars per job in the
485
00:44:06,796 --> 00:44:12,317
United States. This is capitalization that
was not created exclusively as a result
486
00:44:12,387 --> 00:44:17,627
of negro travail. My great grand parents
worked too, presumably yours worked
487
00:44:17,665 --> 00:44:21,185
also. I don't know of anything that has
ever been created without the expense
488
00:44:21,343 --> 00:44:25,529
of something. All of you who hope for a
diploma here are going to do that at the
489
00:44:25,529 --> 00:44:30,108
expense of a considerable amount of
effort. And I would thank you to please
490
00:44:30,108 --> 00:44:35,130
not to deny the fact that a considerable
amount of effort went into the production
491
00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:40,026
of a system which grants a greater degree
of material well being to the American negro
492
00:44:40,026 --> 00:44:44,129
other than that in which is enjoyed by 95%
of the other peoples' of the human race.
493
00:44:44,129 --> 00:44:51,403
But even so, to the extent of your withering
laughter suggested here that you found this
494
00:44:51,403 --> 00:44:56,969
a contemptible observation. I agree.
I don't think it matters that there are
495
00:44:56,969 --> 00:45:01,532
thirty-five millionaires among the negro
community if there were thirty-five, if
496
00:45:01,532 --> 00:45:05,777
there were twenty million millionaires
among the negro community of the
497
00:45:05,777 --> 00:45:10,277
United States, I would still agree with
you that we have a dastardly situation.
498
00:45:10,277 --> 00:45:16,931
But I am asking you not to make politics
as the crow flies, to use the fleeted
499
00:45:16,931 --> 00:45:22,514
phrase of Professor Oakshock. Rather
consider what in fact is that we Americans
500
00:45:22,514 --> 00:45:26,927
ought to do? What are your instructions
that I am to take back to the United States
501
00:45:26,927 --> 00:45:31,228
my friend? I want to know what it is
that we should do and especially,
502
00:45:31,228 --> 00:45:37,283
I want to know whether it is time in fact
to abandon the American Dream as it has
503
00:45:37,283 --> 00:45:41,037
been defined by Mr. Heycock and
Mr. Burford or what in fact is it we
504
00:45:41,037 --> 00:45:48,189
ought to do; for instance, to avoid
two humiliations mentioned by Mr. Baldwin
505
00:45:48,189 --> 00:45:55,206
as being a part of his own experience
during his lifetime. At the age of twelve,
506
00:45:55,206 --> 00:46:00,870
you will find on reading his book,
he trespassed outside the ghetto
507
00:46:00,870 --> 00:46:06,923
of Harlem and was taken by the scruff
of the neck by a policeman on forty-second
508
00:46:06,923 --> 00:46:11,137
street, Madison Avenue and said,
"Here, you nigger, go back to where you belong."
509
00:46:11,137 --> 00:46:17,453
Fifteen, twenty years later he goes in and
asks for a scotch whiskey at the airport
510
00:46:17,453 --> 00:46:24,470
at Chicago and is told by the white woman
that he is obviously under-aged and under
511
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:30,330
the circumstances, cannot be served.
I know. I know from your faces that
512
00:46:30,330 --> 00:46:35,023
you share with me the feeling of
compassion and the feeling of
513
00:46:35,023 --> 00:46:39,905
outraged that this kind of thing should
have happened. What in fact are we
514
00:46:39,905 --> 00:46:44,181
going to do to this policeman and what
in fact are we going to do to this
515
00:46:44,181 --> 00:46:52,128
barman? How are we going to avoid
the kind of humiliations that are
516
00:46:52,128 --> 00:46:58,413
perpetually visited on members of the
minority race. Obviously, the first
517
00:46:58,413 --> 00:47:03,952
element is concern. We've got to
care that it happens. We've got to
518
00:47:03,952 --> 00:47:09,387
do what we can to change the warp
and woof of moral thought in society
519
00:47:09,387 --> 00:47:15,930
in such fashion as to try to make it happen
less and less. Let me urge this point to you
520
00:47:15,930 --> 00:47:19,870
which I can do with authority, my friends.
The only thing that I can tonight,
521
00:47:19,951 --> 00:47:25,830
and that is to tell you that in the
United States there is a concern for
522
00:47:25,830 --> 00:47:28,743
the negro problem. Now if you get
up to me and say-
523
00:47:28,743 --> 00:47:32,847
[laughter]
524
00:47:32,847 --> 00:47:36,558
If you get up to me and say,
"Well is there now the kind of
525
00:47:36,558 --> 00:47:40,920
concern that we students of Cambridge
would show if the problem were our
526
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:47,045
own?" All I can say is I don't know. It may
very well be that there has been some
527
00:47:47,045 --> 00:47:54,602
sort of a sunburst of moral enlightenment
that has hit this community so as to make
528
00:47:54,602 --> 00:47:57,681
it predictable that if you were the
governors of the United States,
529
00:47:57,681 --> 00:48:01,216
the situation would change overnight.
I am prepared to grant this as a
530
00:48:01,216 --> 00:48:07,717
form of curtesy, Mr. President, but
meanwhile I am saying to you that the
531
00:48:07,717 --> 00:48:13,791
engines of concern in the United States
are working. The presence of Mr. Baldwin
532
00:48:13,791 --> 00:48:19,997
here tonight is in part a reflection of
that concern. [audience members yells out]
533
00:48:19,997 --> 00:48:24,396
You cannot go to a university in the
United States, a university in the
534
00:48:24,396 --> 00:48:29,351
United States presumably also governed
by the lord spiritual as you are, in which
535
00:48:29,351 --> 00:48:34,983
Mr. Baldwin is not the toast of the town.
You cannot go to a university of the
536
00:48:34,983 --> 00:48:40,010
United States in which practically all
other problems of public policy are
537
00:48:40,193 --> 00:48:46,116
preempted by the primary policy of
concern for the negro. I challenge you
538
00:48:46,116 --> 00:48:50,766
to name another civilization any time
anywhere in the history of the world
539
00:48:50,766 --> 00:48:55,468
in which the problems of the minority,
which have been showing considerable
540
00:48:55,468 --> 00:49:00,567
material and political advancement as
much a subject of dramatic concern as it
541
00:49:00,567 --> 00:49:06,475
is in the United States, but let me just say
finally, ladies and gentlemen, this.
542
00:49:06,475 --> 00:49:15,520
There is no instant cure for the race
problem in America and anybody
543
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:21,763
who tells you there is is a charlatan and
ultimately a boring man, a boring
544
00:49:21,763 --> 00:49:27,743
precisely because he is then speaking
in the kind of abstractions that do not
545
00:49:27,743 --> 00:49:33,430
relate to the human experience.
The trouble in America where the negro
546
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:38,706
community is concerned is a very
complicated one. I urge those of you
547
00:49:38,706 --> 00:49:44,431
who have an actual rather than a
purely ideologized interest in the
548
00:49:44,431 --> 00:49:50,514
problem to read the book "Beyond
the Melting Pot" by Professor Glazer,
549
00:49:50,514 --> 00:49:56,830
also co-author of the "The Lonely Proud"
a prominent Jewish intellectual who
550
00:49:56,830 --> 00:50:02,164
points at the fact that the situation in
America where the negros are concerned
551
00:50:02,164 --> 00:50:08,619
is extremely complex as the result of an
unfortunate conjunction of two factors.
552
00:50:08,619 --> 00:50:15,928
One is the dreadful efforts to perpetuate
discrimination by many individual American
553
00:50:15,928 --> 00:50:21,910
citizens as a result of their lack of that
final and ultimate concern which some
554
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:27,317
people are truly find agitate the other
or is as a result of a failure of the negro
555
00:50:27,317 --> 00:50:35,034
community itself to make certain exertions
which were made by other minority groups
556
00:50:35,034 --> 00:50:40,434
during the American experience. If you can
stand a statistic not of my own making,
557
00:50:40,434 --> 00:50:45,514
let me give you one which Professor
Glazer considers as relevant. He says
558
00:50:45,514 --> 00:50:51,747
for instance in 1900 there were thirty-five
hundred negro doctors in America. In 1960
559
00:50:51,747 --> 00:50:57,200
there were thirty-nine hundred. An increase
in four hundred. Is this because there were
560
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,164
no opportunities, as has been suggested
by Mr. Heycock and also by Mr. Baldwin
561
00:51:02,164 --> 00:51:07,324
implicitly. "No," says Professor Glazer. There
are great many medical schools who are
562
00:51:07,324 --> 00:51:13,296
by no means practice discrimination who
are anxious to receieve the trained negro
563
00:51:13,296 --> 00:51:17,074
doctors. There are scholarships available
to put them through, but in fact that
564
00:51:17,074 --> 00:51:21,908
particular energy which he remarks was
so noticeable in the Jewish community
565
00:51:21,908 --> 00:51:25,895
to a certain and lesser extent in the
Italian and Irish community for some reason
566
00:51:25,895 --> 00:51:31,586
is not there. We should focus on the
necessity to animate this particular
567
00:51:31,586 --> 00:51:36,094
energy but he comes to the conclusion
which strikes me as plausible. To the
568
00:51:36,094 --> 00:51:39,716
people who can best do who can do it
most effectively are negros themselves.
569
00:51:39,716 --> 00:51:45,922
Let me conclude that by reminding you,
ladies and gentlemen that where the
570
00:51:45,922 --> 00:51:52,577
negro is concerned the dangers are as
far as I can see it this moment is that they
571
00:51:52,577 --> 00:51:57,884
will seek to reach out for some sort of
radical solutions on the basis of which
572
00:51:57,884 --> 00:52:04,727
the true problem is obscured. They have
done a great deal to focus on the fact
573
00:52:04,727 --> 00:52:10,169
of white discrimination against negros.
They have done a great deal to agitate
574
00:52:10,169 --> 00:52:15,694
a moral concern but where in fact
do they go now? They seem to be slipping,
575
00:52:15,694 --> 00:52:21,037
if you read carefully for instance the words
of Mr. Bayard Rustin, toward some sort of
576
00:52:21,037 --> 00:52:28,144
a procrustean formulation which ends up
less urging the advancement of the negro
577
00:52:28,144 --> 00:52:32,848
than the regression of the white people.
Fourteen times as many people in
578
00:52:32,848 --> 00:52:38,364
New York City born of negros are illegitimate
as of whites. This is a problem. How should
579
00:52:38,364 --> 00:52:43,694
be address this? By seeking out laws that
encourage the illlegitimacy in white people?
580
00:52:43,694 --> 00:52:48,984
This unfortunately tends to be the rhetorical
momentum of some of the arguments are taking.
581
00:52:49,194 --> 00:52:52,860
Audience member: One thing you might
do Mr. Buckley is let them vote in Mississippi.
582
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:57,120
[applause]
583
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:07,244
Buckley: I couldn't agree with you more
and for, except, lest I appear too
584
00:53:07,244 --> 00:53:12,452
ingratiating which is hardly my objective
here tonight. I think actually what is wrong
585
00:53:12,452 --> 00:53:16,750
in Mississippi, sir, is not that not enough
negros are voting but there are too many
586
00:53:16,750 --> 00:53:18,659
white people are voting.
587
00:53:18,659 --> 00:53:25,661
[laughter]
588
00:53:25,661 --> 00:53:33,316
Booker T. Washington said, "That the
important thing where negros are
589
00:53:33,316 --> 00:53:37,989
concerned is not that they hold
public office but they be prepared
590
00:53:37,989 --> 00:53:42,417
to hold public office. Not that they vote
but that they be prepared to vote.
591
00:53:42,417 --> 00:53:44,898
What are we going to do with the
negros having taught the negros
592
00:53:44,898 --> 00:53:49,929
in Mississippi to despise Barnett,
Ross Barnett, shall we then teach
593
00:53:49,929 --> 00:53:53,720
them to emulate their cousins
in Harlem and adore Adam
594
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:58,538
Clayton Powell Jr. It is much more
complicated, sir, then simply the
595
00:53:58,538 --> 00:54:02,829
question of giving them the vote.
If I were myself a constituent of the
596
00:54:02,829 --> 00:54:06,810
community of Mississippi at this moment
what I would do is vote to lift the standards
597
00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:12,124
of the vote so as to disqualify sixty-five
percent of the white people who are
598
00:54:12,124 --> 00:54:14,444
presently voting, not simply...
599
00:54:14,444 --> 00:54:19,784
[applause]
600
00:54:19,784 --> 00:54:26,373
I say then what we need is a considerable
amount of frankness that acknowledges
601
00:54:26,373 --> 00:54:31,624
there are two sets of difficulties,
the difficulties of the white person who
602
00:54:31,624 --> 00:54:38,122
acts as white people, as brown people
and black people do all over the world to
603
00:54:38,122 --> 00:54:42,709
protect their own vested interests, who
have as all the races in the entire world
604
00:54:42,709 --> 00:54:50,349
have and suffer from a kind of racial
narcissism to which tend to always
605
00:54:50,349 --> 00:54:55,139
convert every contingency in such a way
to maximize their own power. That yes
606
00:54:55,139 --> 00:55:00,620
we must do, but we must also reach
through to the negro people and tell them
607
00:55:00,620 --> 00:55:05,982
that their best chances are in a mobile
society and the most mobile society
608
00:55:05,982 --> 00:55:11,048
in the world today my friends is the
United States of America. The most
609
00:55:11,048 --> 00:55:14,717
mobile society in the world is the
United States of America, and it is
610
00:55:14,717 --> 00:55:19,817
precisely that mobility which will give
opportunities to the negros which
611
00:55:19,817 --> 00:55:24,778
they must be encouraged to take, but
they must not in the course of their
612
00:55:24,778 --> 00:55:32,235
ordeal be encouraged to adopt the kind
of cynicism, the kind of despair, the kind
613
00:55:32,235 --> 00:55:38,266
of iconoclasm that is urged upon them
by Mr. Baldwin in his recent works because
614
00:55:38,266 --> 00:55:44,516
one thing I can tell you I believe with
absolute authority that where the
615
00:55:44,516 --> 00:55:50,654
United States is concerned if it ever
becomes a confrontation between a
616
00:55:50,654 --> 00:55:58,814
continuation of our own sort of idealism,
the private start of, which granted like
617
00:55:58,814 --> 00:56:02,285
most people in the world, we tend to
lavish only every now and then on
618
00:56:02,285 --> 00:56:06,694
public enterprises reserving it so often
for our own irritations and pleasures,
619
00:56:06,694 --> 00:56:13,761
but the fundamental friend of the negro
people in the United States is the good
620
00:56:13,761 --> 00:56:21,002
nature and is the generosity and is the
good wishes, is the decency, the fundamental
621
00:56:21,002 --> 00:56:26,908
decency that do lie at the preserves of the
spirit of the American people. These must
622
00:56:26,908 --> 00:56:31,726
not be laughed at and under no
circumstances must they be laughed
623
00:56:31,726 --> 00:56:36,723
at and under no circumstances must
America be addressed and told that
624
00:56:36,723 --> 00:56:42,090
the only alternative to the status
quo is to overthrow that civilization
625
00:56:42,090 --> 00:56:47,074
which we consider to be the faith
of our fathers, the faith indeed of
626
00:56:47,074 --> 00:56:52,435
your fathers. This is what must
animate whatever meliorism that must
627
00:56:52,435 --> 00:56:58,316
come because if it does finally come to
confrontation, a radical confrontation,
628
00:56:58,316 --> 00:57:02,991
between giving up what we understand
to be the best features of the American
629
00:57:02,991 --> 00:57:06,975
way of life, which at that level is
indistinguishable as far as I can see
630
00:57:06,975 --> 00:57:11,324
from the European way of life then
we will fight the issue and we will
631
00:57:11,324 --> 00:57:15,561
fight the issue not only in the Cambridge
Union but we will fight it as you were
632
00:57:15,561 --> 00:57:19,882
once recently called to do on beaches
and on hills and on mountains and
633
00:57:19,882 --> 00:57:24,665
on landing grounds and we will be
convinced that just as you won the
634
00:57:24,665 --> 00:57:31,132
war against a particular threat to
civilization, you were nevertheless
635
00:57:31,132 --> 00:57:36,186
waging a war in favor of and for
the benefit of Germans, your own
636
00:57:36,186 --> 00:57:40,549
enemies, just as we are convinced that if
it should ever come to that kind of a
637
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:45,276
confrontation, our own determination
to win the struggle will be a determination
638
00:57:45,276 --> 00:57:49,314
to wage a war not only for whites but
also for negros.
639
00:57:49,314 --> 00:58:20,893
[long applause]
640
00:58:20,893 --> 00:58:26,451
President: Will the tellers take
their places please. Voted in favor of the
641
00:58:26,451 --> 00:58:29,715
motion, the motion being the American
Dream at the expense of the negro
642
00:58:29,715 --> 00:58:33,989
voted in favor of that motion five-hundred
and-forty-four persons and against,
643
00:58:33,989 --> 00:58:37,212
one hundred-and-sixty-four persons.
The motion is therefore carried by
644
00:58:37,212 --> 00:58:40,374
three-hundred-eighty-votes and I declare
the house to stand adjourned.
645
00:58:40,374 --> 00:58:47,884
[applause]