Herald (H): Yeah. Welcome to our next
talk, Social Cooling. You know, people say

"I have no problem with surveillance. I
have nothing to hide," but then, you know,

maybe the neighbors and maybe this and
maybe that. So, tonight we're going to

hear Tijmen Schep who's from Holland. He's
a privacy designer and a freelance

security researcher and he's gonna hold
a talk about how digital surveillance

changes our social way of interacting. So,
please, let's have a hand for Tijmen Schep!

<i>Applause</i>

Tijmen Schep (TS): Hi everyone. Really
cool that you're all here and really happy

to talk here. It's really an honor. My
name is Tijmen Schep and I am a technology

critic. And that means that it's my job to
not believe [audio cuts out] tells us and

that's really a lot of fun. [audio cuts
out] is, how do I get a wider audience

involved in understanding technology and
the issues that are arising from

technology? Because I believe that change
comes when the public demands it. I think

that's really one of the important things
when change happens. And for me as a

technology critic, for me words are very
much how I hack the system, how I try to

hack this world. And so, tonight I'm going
to talk to you about one of these words

that I think could help us. Framing the
issue is half the battle. [audio cuts out]

and frame the problem - if we can explain,
what the problem is in a certain frame...

that, you know, makes certain positions
already visible, that's really half the

battle won. So, that frame is social
cooling. But before I go into it, I want

to ask you a question. Who here recognizes
this? You're on Facebook or some other

social site, and you click on the link
because you think "Oh I could [audio cuts

out] listen [audio cuts out] could click
on this, but it might look bad. It might

be remembered by someone. Some agency
might remember it, and I could click on

it, but I'm hesitating to click."
<i>Microphone buzzing</i>

<i>laughter</i>

TS: That better? Can everyone hear me now?
Audience: No.

TS: No. Okay, that... yeah. Should I start
again? Okay. So, you're on Facebook, and

you're thinking "Oh, that's an interesting
link. I could click on that," but you're

hesitating because maybe someone's gonna
remember

that. And that might come back to me
later, and who here recognizes that

feeling? So, pretty much almost everybody.
And that's increasingly what I find, when

I talk about the issue, that people really
start to recognize this. And I think a

word we could use to describe that is
"Click Fear." This hesitation, it could be

click fear. And you're not alone.
Increasingly, we find that, research

points that this is a wide problem, that
people are hesitating to click some of the

links. For example, after the Snowden
revelations, people were less likely to

research issues about terrorism and other
things on Wikipedia because they thought

"Well, maybe the NSA wouldn't like it if I
[audio cuts out] that. Okay, not gonna

move. And visiting Google as well. So this
is a pattern that there's research... are

pointing to. And it's not very strange, of
course. I mean, we all understand that if

you feel you're being
watched, you change your behavior. It's a

very logical thing that we all understand.
And I believe that technology is really

amplifying this effect. I think that's
something that we really have to come to

grips with. And that's why I think social
cooling could be useful with that. Social

cooling describes in a way how in
increasingly digital world, where our

digital lives are increasingly digitized, it
becomes easier to feel this pressure, to

feel these normative effects of these
systems. And very much you see that,

because increasingly, your data is being
turned into thousands of scores by data

brokers and other companies. And those
scores are increasing influences you're...

influencing your chances in life. And this
is creating an engine of oppression, an

engine of change that we have to
understand. And the fun thing is that in a

way this idea is really being helped by
Silicon Valley, who for a long time has

said "Data is the new gold," but they've
recently, in the last five years, changed

that narrative. Now they're saying "Data
is the new oil," and that's really funny,

because if data is the new oil, then
immediately you get the question "Wait,

oil gave us global warming, so then, what
does data give us?" And I believe that if

oil leads to global warming, then data
could lead to social cooling. That could

be the word that we use for these negative
effects of big data. In order to really

understand this, and go into it, we have
to look at three things. First, we're

going to talk about the reputation
economy, how that system works. Second

chapter, we're going to look at behavior
change, how it is influencing us and

changing our behavior. And finally, to not
let you go home depressed, I'm gonna talk

about how can we deal with this. So first.
The reputation economy. Already we've seen

today that China is building this new
system, the social credit system. It's a

system that will give every citizen in
China a score that basically represents

how well-behaved they are. And it
will influence your ability to get a job,

a loan, a visum and even a date. And for
example, the current version of the

system, Sesame Credit, one of the early
prototypes, already gives everybody that

wants to a score, but it also is connected
to the largest dating website in China.

So, you can kind of find out "Is this
person that I'm dating... what kind of

person is this? Is this something who's,
you know, well viewed by Chinese society?"

This is where it gets really heinous for
me, because until now you could say "Well,

these reputation systems, they're fair, if
you're a good person, you get a higher

score. If you're bad person, you get a
lower score," but it's not that simple. I

mean, your friends' score influences your
score, and your score influences your

friends' score, and that's where you
really start to see how complex social

pressures arrive, and where we can see the
effects of data stratification, where

people are starting to think "Hey, who are
my friends, and who should I be friends

with?" You could think "That only happens
in China. Those Chinese people are, you

know, different." But the exact
same thing is happening here in the West,

except we're letting the market build it.
I'll give you an example. This is a

company called "deemly" - a Danish company
- and this is their video for their

service.
Video narrator (VN): ... renting

apartments from others, and she loves to
swap trendy clothes and dresses. She's

looking to capture her first lift from a
RideShare app, but has no previous reviews

to help support her.
Video background voices: Awww.

VN: Luckily, she's just joined deemly,
where her positive feedback from the other

sites appears as a deemly score, helping
her to win a RideShare in no time. Deemly

is free to join and supports users across
many platforms, helping you to share and

benefit from the great reputation you've
earned. Imagine the power of using your

deemly score alongside your CV for a job
application...

TS: Like in China.
VN: ... perhaps to help get a bank loan...

TS: Like...
VN: or even to link to from your dating

profile.
TS: Like in China!

VN: Sign up now at deemly.co. Deemly:
better your sharing.

<i>Applause</i>
TS: Thanks. There is a change. There is

difference, though. The funny thing about
here is that it's highly invisible to us.

The Chinese government is very open about
what they're building, but here we are

very blind to what's going on. Mostly,
when we talk about these things, then

we're talking about these systems that
give us a very clear rating, like Airbnb,

Uber, and of course the Chinese system.
The thing is, most of these systems are

invisible to us. There's a huge market of
data brokers who are, you know, not

visible to you, because you are not the
customer. You are the product. And these

data brokers, well, what they do is, they
gather as much data as possible about you.

And that's not all. They then create up to
eight thousand scores about you. In the

United States, these companies have up to
8,000 scores, and in Europe it's a little

less, around 600. These are scores about
things like your IQ, your psychological

profile, your gullibility, your religion,
your estimated life span. 8,000 of these

different things about you. And how does
that work? Well, it works by machine

learning. So, machine learning algorithms
can find patterns in society that we can

really not anticipate. For example, let's
say you're a diabetic, and, well, let's

say this data broker company has a mailing
list, or has an app, that diabetic

patients use. And they also have the data
of these diabetic patients about what they

do on Facebook. Well, there you can start
to see correlations. So, if diabetic

patients more often like gangster-rap and
pottery on Facebook, well, then you could

deduce from that if you also like
gangster-rap or pottery on Facebook, then

perhaps you also are more likely to have
or get diabetes. It is highly

unscientific, but this is how the system
works. And this is an example of how that

works with just your Facebook scores.
Woman in the video: ... see was lowest about

60% when it came to predicting whether a
user's parents were still together when

they were 21. People whose parents
divorced before they were 21 tended to

like statements about relationships. Drug
users were ID'd with about 65% accuracy.

Smokers with 73%, and drinkers with 70%.
Sexual orientation was also easier to

distinguish among men. 88% right there.
For women, it was about 75%. Gender, by

the way, race, religion, and political
views, were predicted with high accuracy

as well. For instance: White versus black:
95%.

TS: So, the important thing to understand
here is that this isn't really about your

data anymore. Like, oftentimes when we
talk about data protection, we talk about

"Oh, I want to keep control of my data."
But this is their data. This data that

they deduce, that they derive from your
data. These are opinions about you. And

these things are what, you know, make it
so that even though you never filled in a

psychological test, they'd have one. A
great example of that, how that's used, is

a company called Cambridge Analytica. This
company has created detailed profiles

about us through what they call
psychographics and I'll let them explain

it themselves.
Man in the video: By having hundreds and

hundreds of thousands of Americans
undertake this survey, we were able to

form a
model to predict the personality of every

single adult in the United States of
America. If you know the personality of

the people you're targeting you can nuance
your messaging to resonate more

effectively with those key audience
groups. So, for a highly neurotic and

conscientious audience, you're going to
need a message that is rational and fair-

based, or emotionally-based. In this case,
the threat of a burglary, and the

insurance policy of a gun is very
persuasive. And we can see where these

people are on the map. If we wanted to
drill down further, we could resolve the

data to an individual level, where we have
somewhere close to four or five thousand

data points on every adult in the United
States.

TS: So, yeah. This is the company that
worked with both the... for the Brexit

campaign and with the Trump campaign. Of
course, little after Trump campaign, all

the data was leaked, so data on 200
million Americans was leaked, And

increasingly, you can see
this data described as "modeled voter

ethnicities and religions." So, this is
this derived data. You might think that

when you go online and use Facebook and
use all these services, that advertisers

are paying for you. That's a common
misperception. That's not really the case.

What's really going on is that, according
to SSC research, the majority of the

money made in this data broker market is
made from risk management. All right, so,

in a way you could say that it's not
really marketers that are paying for you,

it's your bank. It's ensurers. It's your
employer. It's governments. These kind of

organizations are the ones who buy these
profiles. The most. More than the other

ones. Of course, the promise of big data
is that you can then manage risk. Big data

is the idea that with data you can
understand things and then manage them.

So what really is innovation in this big
data world, this data economy, is the

democratization of the background check.
That's really the core of this, this market

that now you can find out everything about
everyone.

So, yeah, now your... in past, only perhaps
your bank could know your credit score but

now your green grocer knows your
psychological profile.

Right that's a new level of, yeah, what's
going on here. It's not only inv... not

only invisible but it's also huge
according to the same research by the FCC

this market was already worth 150 billion
dollars in 2015. So, it's invisible, it's

huge and hardly anyone knows about it. But
that's probably going to change. And that

brings us to the second part: Behavioral
change. We already see this first part of

this, how behavioral change is happening
through these systems. That's through outside

influence and we've, we've talked a lot
about this in this conference. For example

we see how Facebook and advertisers try to
do that. We've also seen how China is

doing that, trying to influence you. Russia
has recently tried to use Facebook to

influence the elections and of course
companies like Cambridge Analytica try to

do the same thing.
And here you can have a debate on, you

know, to what extent are they really
influencing us, but I think that's not

actually the really, the most interesting
question. What interests me most of all is

how we are doing it ourselves, how we are
creating new forms of self-censorship and

and are proactively anticipating these
systems. Because once you realize that

this is really about risk management you
start... and this is about banks and

employers trying to understand you, people
start to understand that this will go beyond

click fear, if you remember. This will go
beyond, this will become, you know,

when people find out this will be, you
know, not getting a job for example.

This'll be about getting really expensive
insurance. It'll be about all these kinds

of problems and people are increasingly
finding this out. So for example in the

United States if you... the IRS might now
use data profile... are now using data

profiles to find out who they should
audit. So I was talking recently to a girl

and and she said: "Oh I recently tweeted
about... a negative tweet about the IRS," and

she immediately grabbed her phone to
delete it.

When she realized that, you know, this
could now be used against her in a way.

And that's the problem. Of course we see all
kinds of other crazy examples that the big...

the audience that we measure... the wider public
is picking up on, like who... so we now have

algorithms that can find out if you're gay
or not. And these things scare people and

these things are something we have to
understand. So, chilling effects this what

this boils down to. For me, more importantly
than these influences of these big

companies and nation states is how people
themselves are experiencing these chilling

effects like you yourself have as well.
That brings us back to social cooling. For

me, social cooling is about these two
things combined at once and this

increasing ability of agents and... and groups
to influence you and on the other hand the

increasing willingness of people
themselves to change their own behavior to

proactively engage with this issue.
There are three long-term consequences

that I want to dive into. The first is how
this affects the individual, the second is

how it affects society, and the third is
how it affects the market. So let's look

the individual. Here we've seen, there's a
rising culture of self-censorship. It

started for me with an article that I read in
New York Times, where a student was saying:

"Well we're very very reserved." She's
going to do things like spring break.

I said: "Well you don't have to defend
yourself later," so you don't do it.

And what she's talking about, she's
talking about doing crazy things, you

know, letting go, having fun. She's
worried that the next day it'll be on

Facebook.
So what's happening here is that you do

have all kinds of freedoms: You have the
freedom to look up things, you have the

freedom to to say things, but you're
hesitating to use it. And that's really

insidious. That has an effect on a wider
society and here we really see the

societal value of privacy. Because in
society often minority values later become

majority values. An example is... is weed.
I'm from... I'm from the Netherlands and

there you see, you know, at first it's
something that you just don't do and it's

you know a bit of a "uhh", but then "Oh, maybe
yeah, you should... you should try it as well," and

people try it and slowly under the surface
of the society, people change their minds

about these things. And then, after a while
it's like, you know, "What are we still

worried about?"
How the same pattern help it happens of

course with way bigger things like this:
Martin Luther King: "I must honestly say to

you that I never intend to adjust myself
to racial segregation and discrimination."

TS: This is the same pattern
that's happening

for all kinds of things that that change
in society, and that's what privacy is so

important for, and that's why it's so
important that people have the ability to

look things up and to change their minds
and to talk about each other without

feeling so watched all the time.
The third thing is how this impacts the

market. Here we see very much the rise of
a culture of risk avoidance. An example

here is that in
1995 already, doctors in New York were

given scores, and what happened was that
the doctors who try to help advanced

stage cancer patients, complex patients, who
try to do the operation, difficult

operations, got a low score, because these
people more often died, while doctors that

didn't lift a finger and didn't try to
help got a high score. Because, well, people

didn't die. So you see here that these
systems that, they bring all kinds of

perverse incentives. They, you know, they're
they lower the willingness for everybody

to take a risk and in some areas of
society we really like people to take

risks. They're like entrepreneurs, doctors.
So in the whole part you could say that

this, what we're seeing here, is some kind
of trickle-down risk aversion, where

the willing, the... the way that
companies and governments want to

manage risk, that's trickling down to us.
And we're we of course want them to like

us, want to have a job, we want to have
insurance, and then we increasingly start

to think "Oh, maybe I should not do this." It's
a subtle effect. So how do we deal with

this?
Well, together. I think this is a really

big problem. I think this is such a big
problem that, that it can't be managed by

just some, some hackers or nerds, building
something, or by politicians, making a law.

This is a really a society-wide problem.
So I want to talk about all these groups

that should get into this: the public,
politicians, business, and us.

So the public. I think we have to talk
about and maybe extend the metaphor of the

cloud and say we have to learn to see the
stars behind the cloud. Alright, that's one

way that we could... that's a narrative we
could use. I really like to use humor to

explain this to a wider audience, so for
example, last year I was part of an

exhibits... helped develop exhibits about
dubious devices and one of the devices

there was called "Taste your status"
which was a coffee machine that gave you

coffee based on your area code. So if you
live in a good area code, you get nice coffee.

You live in a bad area code, you get bad
coffee.

<i>music</i>
<i>laugher</i>

<i>applause</i>
I'll go into it but... these... often times

you can use humor to explain these things
to a wider audience. I really like that

method, that approach.
We've got a long way to go though. I mean,

if we look at the long, you know, how long
it took for us to understand global

warming, to really, you know, come to a stage
where most people understand what it is

and care about it except Donald Trump.
Well, with data we really got a long way to

go, we're really at the beginning of
understanding this issue like this.

Okay, so the second group that has to
really wake up is politicians. And they have

to understand that this is really about the
balance of power. This is really about

power. And if you permit me, I'll go into
the big picture a little bit, as a media

theorist. So this is called Giles Deleuze.
he's a French philosopher and he explained

in his work something that I find really
useful, He said you have two systems of

control in society and the one is the
institutional one and that's the one we

all know.
You know that the judicial system so

you're free to do what you want but then
you cross a line you cross a law and the

police get you you go for every charge you
go to prison. That's the system we

understand.
But he says there's another system which

is the social system this is a social
pressure system and this for a long time

wasn't really designed.
But now increasingly we are able to do

that so this is the system where you
perform suboptimal behavior and then that

gets measured and judged and then you get
subtly nudged in the right direction. And

there's some very important differences
between these 2 systems. The institutional

system you know it has this idea that
you're a free citizen that makes up your

own mind and you know what social system
is like that's working all the time,

constantly it doesn't matter if you're
guilty or innocent it's always trying to

push you. The old system, the institutional
system is very much about punishment so if

you
break the rules you get punishment but

people sometimes don't really care about
punishment sometimes it's cool to get

punishment. But the social system uses
something way more powerful which is the

fear of exclusion. We are social animals
and we really care to belong to a group.

The other difference is that it's very
important that the institutional system is

accountable. You know democratically to us
how the social system at the moment is

really really invisible like these
algorithms how they work where the data is

going it's very hard to understand and of
course it's exactly what China loved so

much about it right there's no you can
stand in front of a tank but you can't

really stand in front of the cloud. So
yeah that's that's great it also helps me

to understand when people say I have
nothing to hide. I really understand that

because when people say I have nothing to
hide what they're saying is I have nothing

to hide from the old system from the
classic system from the institutional

system. They're saying I want to help the
police I trust our gover

nment I trust our institutions and that's
actually really a positive thing to say.

The thing is they don't really see the other
part of the system how increasingly there

are parts that are not in your control
they're not democratically checked and that's

really a problem. So the third thing that
I think we have to wake up is business,

business has to see that this is not so
much a problem perhaps but that it could

be an opportunity. I think I'm still
looking for a metaphor here but perhaps,

if we you know again, compare this issue
to global warming we say that we need

something like ecological food for data.
And but I don't know what that's gonna

look like or how we're gonna explain that
maybe we have to talk about fast food

versus fast data versus ecological data
but we need a metaphor here. Of course

laws are also really helpful. So we might
get things like this. I'm actually working

on this is funny. Or if things get really
out of hand we might get here, right?

So luckily we see that in Europe
the the politicians are awake and are

really trying to push this market I think
that's really great, so I think in the

future we'll get to a moment where people
say well I prefer European smart products

for example, I think that's a good thing I
think this is really positive. Finally I

want to get to all of us what each of us
can do. I think here again there's a

parallel to global warming where at its
core it's not so much about the new

technology and all the issues, it's about
a new mindset, a new way of looking at the

world. And I here think we have to stop
saying that we have nothing to hide for

example. If I've learned anything in the
past years understanding and researching

privacy and this big trade data market is
privacy is the right to be imperfect. All

right increasing there's pressure to be
the perfect citizen to be the perfect

consumer and privacy is a way of getting
out of that. So this is how I would

reframe privacy it's not just being about
which bits and bytes go where but it's

about you know the human right to be
imperfect cause course we are human we are

all imperfect. Sometimes when I talk at
technology conference people say well

privacy was just a phase. You know, it's
like ebb and flood in and we got it and

it's gonna go away again, that's crazy you
know, you don't say women's rights were

just a phase we had it for a while and
it's gonna go again. Right? And of course

Edward Snowden explains it way better. He
says arguing that you don't care about the

right to privacy because you have nothing
to hide it's no different than saying you

don't care about free speech because you
have nothing to say. What an eloquent

system admin. So I think what we have to
do strive for here is that we develop for

more nuanced understanding of all these
issues. I think we have to go away from

this idea that data more data is better,
data is automatically progress. No it's

not data is a trade-off for example for
the individual more data might mean less

psychological security, less willingness
to share, less willing to try things. For

a country it might mean less autonomy for
citizens and citizens need their own

autonomy they need to know what's going on
they need to be able to vote in their own

autonomous way and decide what's what they
want. In business you could say more data

might lead to less creativity right less
willingness to share new ideas to come up

with new ideas - that's again an issue
there. So in conclusion social cooling is

a way of understanding these issues or a
way of framing these issues that I think

could be useful for us. That could help us
understand and engage with these issues.

And yes social cooling is an alarm, it's
alarmist - it is we're trying to say this

is the problem and we have to deal with
this. But it's also really about hope. All

right. I trust not so much in technology I
trust in us in people that we can fix this

once we understand the issue in the same
way that when we understood the problem

with global warming we started to deal
with it. Where do it's

gonna it's slow progress we're doing that
and we can do the same thing with data.

It'll take a while but we'll get there.
And finally this is about starting to

understand the difference between shallow
optimism and deep optimism. All right,

oftentimes technology sectors right cool
into technology and we're going to fix

this by creating an app and for me that's
you know ,They: "we have to be

optimistic", that's very shallow optimism
the TEDx make optimism. Like true optimism

recognizes that each technology comes with
a downside and we have to recognize that

thats it's, that thats not a problem to,
to point out these problems it's a good

thing if once you understand the problems
you can deal with them - and you know come

up with better solutions. If we don't
change in this mindset then we might

create the world where we're all more well
behaved but perhaps also a little bit

less human. Thank you.
<i>Applause</i>

H: Thank You Devin.
TS: You are welcome.

<i>Applause</i>
H: We still have five more minutes we'll

take some questions if you like. First
microphone number 2.

Microphone 2 (M2): Hello, thanks that was
a really interesting talk. I have a

question that I hope will work it's a bit
complicated there's a project called indie

by a foundation called a sovereign
foundation do you know about it? Okay very

great perfect so to just to quickly
explain these people want to create an

identity layer that will be self sovereign
which means people can reveal what they

want about themselves only when they want
but is one unique identity on the entire

internet so that can potentially be very
liberating because you control all your

identity and individual data. But at the
same time it could be used to enable

something like the personal scores we were
showing earlier on so made me think about

that and I wanted to know if you had an
opinion on this.

TS: Yes well um the first thing I think
about is that as I try to explain you see

a lot of initiatives have tried to be
about: "Oo you have to control your own

data". But that's really missing the point
that it's no longer really about your data

it's about this derived data and of course
it can help to to manage what you share

you know then they can't derive anything
from it. But to little I see that

awareness. Second of all this is very much
for me an example of what nerds and

technologies are really good at it's like:
"oh we've got a social problem let's

create a technology app and then we'll fix
it". Well what I'm trying to explain is

that this is such a big problem that we
cannot fix this with just one group alone

- not the politicians, not the designers,
not the Nerds this is something that we

have to really get together you know grab
- fix together because this is such a

fundamental issue right. The idea that
risk is a problem that we want to manage

risk is such so deeply ingrained in people
you know such stuff based in fear is

fundamental and it's everywhere so it's
not enough for one group to try to fix

that it's something that we have to come
to grips with together.

M2: Thanks a lot.
H: Ok there is a signal angel has a

question from the internet I think.
Signal Angel (SigA): Yes and BarkingSheep

is asking: "do you think there's a
relationship between self-censorship and

echo chambers in a sense that people
become afraid to challenge their own

belief and thus isolate themselves in
groups with the same ideology?".

TS: That's, a that's a, that's a really
big answer to that one.

<i>pauses</i>
TS: Actually, I was e-mailing Vince Cerf,

and miraculously he, he responded, and he
said what you really have to look for is

this, not just a reputation economy, but
also the attention economy and how they're

linked. So for a while I've been looking
for that, that link and there's a lot to

say there and there definitely is a link.
I think important to understand over to

get new ones here is that, I'm not saying
that everybody will become really well

behaved and gray book worm people. The
thing is that what this situation's

creating, is that we're all becoming
theater players while playing in identity

more and more, because we're watched more
of the time. And for some people that

might mean that they're, you know, I think
most people will be more conservative and

more careful, some people will go really
all out and they all enjoy the stage! You

know? We have those people as well, and I
think those people could really benefit

and that the attention economy could
really you know give them a lot of

attention through that. So I think
there's, there's a link there but I could

go on more but I think it's for now, where
I'm aware.

H: Okay, we're short on time, we'll take,
I'm sorry one more question. The number

one?
Microphone 1 (M1): So, the, I think the

audience you're talking about, ...
H: Louder, please.

M1: The the audience you're talking to
here, is already very aware but I'm asking

for, like tactics, or your tips, to spread
your message and to talk to people that

are in this, they say: "Uh, I don't care
they can surveil me.", like what's, what's

your approach, like in a practical way?
How do you actually do this?

TS: Yeah, so, I'm really glad to be here
because I am, yes, I am a nerd, but I'm

also a philosopher or thinker, you know
and, and that means that

for me what I work with, it's not just odd
Rhinos, but words and ideas. I think those

I've been trying to show can be really
powerful, like a word can be a really

powerful way to frame a debate or engage
people. So, I haven't found yet a way to

push all this tar. Like, I was making joke
that I can tell you in one sentence, what

privacy is and why it matters but I have
to give a whole talk before that, all

right? Privacy is a right to be imperfect
but in order to understand that you have

to understand the rise of the reputation
economy, and how it affects your chances

in life. The fun thing is, that, that that
will happen by itself that people will

become more aware of that, they will run
into these problems. They will not get a

job or they might get other issues, and
then they will start to see the problem.

And so my question not so much to help
people understand it, but to help them

understand it before they run into the
wall, right? That's how usually society at

the moment deals with technology problems.
It's like "Oh we'll, we'll, oh ... Oh?

it's a problem? Oh well, now we'll try to
fix it." Well, I believe you can really

see these problems come way earlier and I
think the humanity's, to come around from,

is really helpful in that, and trying to
you know like, the lows are really,

really clearly explaining what the problem
is in 1995. So yeah, that I think that, I

don't have a short way of explaining, you
know, why privacy matters but I think

it'll become easier over time as people
start to really feel these pressures.

H: Sorry, thank you very much for the
question. I think we all should go out and

spread the message. This talk is over, I'm
awfully sorry. When you people leave,

please take your bottles, and your cups,
...

<i>applause</i>
H: ... and all your junk, and thank you

very much again Tijmen Schep!
<i>applause</i>

<i>music</i>

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