Response to 23 Questions Series, Part-68,
Excommunication From Islam, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
[Muhammad Hassan Ilyas] Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim, As Salam Alaikum.
Welcome to another session of 'From the Desk of Ghamidi'.
The chain of discussion continues on 23 Objections.
Today we are about to start the 68th episode of that chain,
Whatever doubts or objections that are presented
on the thoughts of Ghamidi Sahab,
we are putting those questions to him in order.
We are here again at your service with a new topic.
Let us begin.
Today's topic is the issue of 'Takfeer' (Excommunication from Islam).
It is said that in this scholarly tradition of the Ummah,
that there is a consensus on this issue, and this too is a point
on which Ghamidi Sahab has differed
with the academic tradition of the whole Ummah,
has presented a new concept, a new point of view,
what is the established point of view? I will state a very brief summary of it.
Our Ulema tell us and write too that
Takfeer is among the necessities of Deen,
an indispensable requirement.
This Right is for the Muslim State and the Muslim Ulema as well.
i.e. not just for the people who deny the Deen
'Takfeer' should be done of them,
rather, from among the Muslims too, if some beliefs
or viewpoints are found then their Takfeer could be done as well.
The instructions given by Deen cannot be followed
till the time 'Takfeer' is not done on the people.
There are some punishments and instructions with regard to Takfeer.
Takfeer hasn't just been done in the Quran by Allah (swt)
rather, we find them in Ahadees also.
And with reference to the attitude of Sahaba as well, this is also well known.
It is a lawful and permissible thing, which cannot be declared as forbidden.
What is Ghamidi Sahab's point of view?
We will know all this, let us start.
Thank you very much Ghamidi Sahab for your time.
I am trying that in this full series,
your actual reasoning with its original chain of arguments,
and the fundamental and clear basis of your argumments,
that we begin with that in this first stage,
and then one by one the secondary doubts,
whether those are based on Quran or Hadees,
or whether they are based on the clear axioms of reason.
First of all, I would like to know from you that
this complete issue of 'Takfeer',
till now we have not heard any detailed discussion on it from you.
Please do explain and take us along in this scholarly journey,
and tell us that whatever conclusions you have drawn,
what has been the intellectual journey behind it,
and what is the epistemology behind it?
What is your take on it? And the criticism that is done
on it, that I will present one by one to you.
In your opinion, what actually is 'Takfeer'?
Where lie the roots of this problem? And what is your basis of argument?
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] In the Deen of Allah, the acts which
are considered as major deviations ... you are aware that those are only two.
One is 'Shirk' and the other is 'Kufr'.
'Shirk' and 'Kufr' are the common words in the Arabic language.
'Shirk' implies that we are making someone partner in something.
And 'Kufr', if we see the from the lexical point of view,
like it means to deny, it also has various other meanings.
If we look at that most popular usage then
along with denying its popular meaning is that of 'Ingratitude'.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] In Urdu, when we speak
the word 'Kufran-e Nemat', it is actually from it.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] In the Quran
which is in the Arabic language, it has been used in its lexical meanings.
For example, note that the Quran says that I have shown you both the ways,
"Imma Shaakiram Wa Imma Kafura",
now if someone wishes he can either be thankful or ungrateful.
So here it is used in one of its lexical meanings.
The same word 'Kufr' is there, i.e. this word has its origins in that very root.
Other than this you see that in the Quran,
just for denial, which we call denial in the Urdu language,
where a religious aspect does not come up in that manner, it has been used.
"Wa Mayin Yakfur Bit Taghut". 'One who denies the Taghut',
Obviously, 'Kufr' here gets included in the requirements of Iman.
i.e. something which, in essence, in the religious realm, is a big deviation,
is becoming praiseworthy here. Hence the usage of its lexical meaning.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] There is no end
to such usages of words. However, the Quran has used this word.
And has converted it into two terminological interpretations.
Hence the need is felt that when these have become
terminological expressions, then what is implied with Shirk terminologically?
And what does 'Kufr' imply terminologically?
So if you look at it in the light of the Quran,
then Shirk implies that we hold someone as Allah.
Or to hold Allah as some other entity.
Or to hold someone as a partner in His Creation and Commands (Authority).
'Khalq' means the act of creation that has taken place in this universe.
And 'Amr' means that the system of the universe
transcending mere physical laws of based on cause and effect.
Or as it is being run beyond the world of physical appearance,
This has been stated by the Quran, "Ala Lahul Khalqu Wal Amar".
So this is the definition of Shirk in simple words.
'Kufr', when you see it in the light of the Quran
when it changes into a term of art, as a technical term,
then it implies that Allah (swt) has imbibed a Guidance
in the interior of human beings, which he is born with,
however, after this, for its expounding and elucidation
and the ascertaining of its micro details,
so that it is tamed in an orderly fashion,
Allah (swt) has through his Prophets revealed its details.
Hence, that revealed Deen which Allah's Prophets
have brought, that even if we refuse to accept it even partially,
then the word Kufr applies to it.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] So Shirk and Kufr
should first be understood as terminological expressions.
After this, let us go further, and see that, when we say,
that a certain thing involves Shirk,
or Shirk has taken place in such a matter,
or this step, or point of view or this act has elements of Shirk,
or it can be termed as Shirk, or when we say that
this thing is totally 'Kufr'.
The fundamental truth has been denied in it.
This thing is the denial of one of the compulsory requirements in the Creed.
When we are speaking of such things then
we actually are commenting on some angle
or point of view or on some Aqeedah (Concept).
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] And we do this often and on.
i.e. when Deen is taught, on that occasion,
it is to be clarified, that Iman is this,
the requirement of Iman is this,
This is Islam. The basic tenets of Islam are such.
Similarly, in Shirk, in so and so matter Shirk would apply,
in such and such a matter, Kufr would apply.
i.e. in this way, both these terms occur in our general use.
I was telling that when we go beyond this,
we come to know, that in the Quran
these terms have been used in several ways in their terminological meaning.
At present Shirk is not our topic of discussion.
We shall limit our discussion to 'Kufr'.
If you look into the Quran, then there are two broad usages of it.
One use is that the Quran uses the word 'Kufr' and 'Kafir',
i.e. obviously, 'Kufr' is a noun, and one who does 'Kufr' is a 'Kafir'.
Hence using the word 'kufr' and 'Kafir' the Quran in dozens of places
explains what is 'Kufr' and who is a 'Kafir'?
[Hassan] Okay, it tells itself. [Ghamidi] i.e. there
the point of argument is not that for a particular person
or group a verdict is being given. A point is being elaborated.
i.e. the Quran will tell us that if a person denies the existence of Allah,
it is 'Kufr'. The Quran tells us that when a group brings Syedna Isa A.S.
to a level comparable to Allah (swt)
or raises him to the level of Allah and starts worshiping him, or
believes in a corporeality (physicalness) of the being
or the personality of Allah,
then it is in fact an act of 'Kufr'.
Hence, what is happening here? Here, through the application,
i.e. as per the general method of the revealed Books,
it is being explained as to what actually is 'Kufr'?
In the same way, you may note, how by using the word 'Kaafirun',
it is telling as to what are the things
which turn an individual a 'Kafir' in the sight of Allah or before Allah.
When we become a Momin, we are a Momin in the sight of Allah.
And when we become a 'Kafir', we are a Kafir in front of Allah.
Hence a very beautiful term has been used,
"Wa Mallam Yah Kum Bima Anzallahu Fa Ulaaika Humul Kaafirun".
i.e. those people who do not make judgements
according to the Laws revealed by Allah, those are the ones who are Kafir.
So, now what has been done here? It is told that
any person who is not making Judgements
according to the laws revealed by Allah, on him, the term 'Kufr' would apply.
He would be called a 'Kafir' too. This has been done by the Quran
not in one, or two, but in dozens of places
it has used the term similarly as the term Shirk has been used.
i.e. even those forms of Shirk have been included
which we may interpret as the attitudes of Shirk as well.
In the same way, all the points regarding 'Kufr' too have been told.
This is one aspect of it.
This aspect is the foundation of Dawah in our Deen.
i.e. when we present the Deen of Allah in the world,
then what role does an Aalim play in it?
He does the work of telling you what is Iman, and what is Islam?
You must be aware that a special discussion took place
between Jibreel-e Ameen and the Prophet (pbuh),
what were the questions asked there?
The first question was 'What is Iman?'
The second question is 'What is Islam?'
Obviously, now what is Islam, or Iman,
if we have to discuss its opposites,
then we have to tell what Kufr or Shirk is as compared to Iman?
We have to tell this,
in the same way, we have to state the things which are in comparison with Islam.
Hence, when are stating all this, we are essentially giving Dawah, or teaching,
or training people or stating the Deen or explicating or educating people in Deen
or warning and alerting people.
So I said that this work has taken place on a large scale in the Quran too.
This has taken place in dozens of places.
You see such terms in multiple places,
that it turns the topic for discussion
on to the belief of some group,
or makes an individual's belief as the point of discussion.
or makes an attitude the topic for discussion.
And after this, the same terms are adopted by it.
i.e. if we include one more term in it, and what is that?
'Zalalat', i.e. MIsguidance, so sometimes it says that it is 'Zalal-e Bayiid'.
It is a distant misguidance. Sometimes it will say that it is 'Kufr'.
Sometimes it will say it is 'Fisq'.
Or sometimes it will say it is Shirk.
Let me repeat it, that in fact, this is the statement of Deen.
It is the Dawah of Deen.
The moment you will state positive things,
their negative counterparts would occur immediately.
When you will speak of Islam,
then the opposite of Islam would also be stated.
When Iman would be stated then the contrary of Iman will also be mentioned.
[Hassan] The standard would be told. [Ghamidi] This you and I would also tell.
All the Ulema of the Muslim community would state it as well.
There isn't any escape from this. It will happen day in and day out.
The Quran has used these on a grand scale as I had said,
in multiple places, in dozens of places;
and it has been explained that
so and so is 'Kufr' and only a Kafir can adopt such and such things.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] If you refer to the Hadees,
the same terms will be found in multiple places.
i.e. it will be told that a Muslim cannot do such a thing.
To do such work is against Islam.
If such act is done then it would imply that
an individual has crossed the realm of religion.
All these interpretations would be there,
however, when we speak of a particular person being Kafir,
a certain group is 'Kafir', so and so person is 'Mushrik',
or a group is Mushrik, now, this matter
does not remain confined only to the Dawah of Deen.
This is in reality a verdict for an individual which we are giving.
Some simple examples would make it clear.
When you ask what is theft? I will tell you this and that is theft.
The term theft applies to this thing or applies to such an act.
When it is asked, what is fornication?
I tell you in detail that the application of the term adultery
as per the language,
or if there has been some definition made in law as well,
then I will tell you that the term adultery applies
on this act, when it is done in such a way.
Similarly, I will tell you that one who commits adultery
is an adulterer, or one who steals is a thief.
Or one who robs is a robber.
We often and on use all these terms in teaching,
training, Dawah, speeches and in Jurisprudence.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] When we say,
Zaid or Bakr are thiefs, or when we say that
so and so group are adulterers,
or so and so person is an adulterer, so what are we doing now?
We are actually applying our concept
on the action of a person, of a particular person.
Hence, the Quran as I said just now,
like it has told in multiple places as to what is 'Kufr'
or who is called a 'Kafir',
similarly, it has applied this word on its various addressees, and groups.
It has done so on the People of Scripture as well as on the 'Mushrikeen'.
It has been done in the form of a verb as well as an adjective.
When it has been done on them, if you observe that occasion,
these terms have been used only for the people
who bear witness to their 'Kufr' and confess to it.
[Hassan] Okay, i.e it portrays their outward state.
[Ghamidi] i.e. it is exactly like, a thief comes to us,
and he confesses that he is a thief.
Now, you have the full right to say that he is a thief.
You may proclaim that the thief himself had come and told me.
The robber had come and said this to me.
Since he has confessed to it. Put it in the sphere of the law,
i.e. a person comes to the Court,
and he comes and confesses of his crime,
so now the judicial proceedings will limit to the recording of the confession.
After that, the sentence may be given.
i.e. after this, you cease to remain an accused.
Look at the case of adultery, we have been taught that
we will not accuse anybody of adultery,
if we come across any such instance we will try to keep it covered.
If we do otherwise, then it will become a crime for 'Qazf',
then in such a situation, we have been bound
to fetch at least 4 witnesses. However, some people presented
themselves before the Prophet (pbuh),
and confessed to having committed adultery themselves.
Obviously, now why would they need the 4 witnesses?
Therefore, now to say about them that they committed adultery,
neither can anyone be stopped from doing it,
nor is it a crime.
It is actually a statement of their own confession or they're owning up.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] So when the Quran has to tell,
that this particular thing is 'Kufr', or to tell that when such an act is done,
it is an act of 'Kafir', that is the description of the Deen.
That is done by us all, no one can have any objection to it.
The complete knowledge tradition of the Muslims has done this.
Since the Iman has to be elaborated,
therefore its contrast has to be explained as well.
However, when we apply it to a group or an individual,
then for this, two things become compulsory,
i.e. one is that he or they own up to it, or accept it,
after this, we do not have any responsibility,
I have called myself a Muslim,
now there isn't the need to check or test my Islam.
When I have declared myself as a Muslim then
you will welcome me as a Muslim.
The same thing has been stated in a place in the Quran,
that if a person on some occasion,
say, when we go into fields, a man appears and says, "As Salamu Alaikum",
hence this is a way of Islam, accept it, and do not reply to him
'Lasta Mumina', you are not Momin, this has been stated in Surah Nisa.
Therefore I expressed my Iman and you accepted it.
[Hassan] The first situattion.
[Ghamidi] In the same way, when I express my 'Kufr',
I said that I am not going to accept your ideas about Prophethood,
or I deny it, or if it is said in Arabic,
that whatever you are saying I am its 'Kafir'.
I may say any of these expressions.
This will be my confession. This will be a statement about myself.
Hence, when the Quran tells this to a group,
i.e. addressing them as Kafir, or reporting their saying as that of a Kafir,
who are all those? Those are the ones
who confess for their 'Kufr' themselves.
i.e. they have stepped ahead to proclaim themselves as Kafir.
Here the Quran has not given any verdict.
Since, if they deny it, so now the question arises that
the thief has denied now on what principle will we call him a thief?
[Hassan] But where have they owned up that they are Kafir?
[Ghamidi] This is what I am going to discuss.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] i.e. the objective
of all this introduction was to know first,
what is the terminological interpretation for the word Kufr in the Quran?
What is the meaning of the term 'Shirk'? When on different occasions
the Quran pronounces something as Kufr,
or it is Shirk, then what is it doing? That actually is a description of the Deen
And when it refers to the different groups
and says this, whether it is done on the first day
or on the last day, i.e. whether it adopts this method on the first day
or the last day of its Dawah,
we will know from the Quran ourselves that in the Dawah of all the Prophets,
these are actually the leaders or the arrogant people
or the elders of their community,
they have been their elites who themselves have taken the initiative
and proclaimed that "we are Kafirs", and then the Quran gives their reference.
Therefore, those are self-confessed criminals
whom the Quran addresses as 'Kafir' here. Now I will present to you one by one
those places in the Quran.
[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, before you present the Quran,
a question that comes to mind is, it might also occur logically to people
you have clearly differentiated between the literal meaning
and the formation of the terminological meaning
and that both have been used in the Quran.
The question is how will it be known that on a certain occasion
the Quran is using the terminological meaning of Kafir
since nowhere is it mentioned in the Quran that here
the literal meaning is not used, rather it is the terminological meaning here.
How will we know about what meaning is to be taken and when?
[Ghamidi] There is no difficulty in it.
We decide likewise for all words we use.
The terminological meaning as well is a part of the lexicon.
It is not that they are left out.
For 'Namaz' (Prayer) the word used in the Quran is Salah.
The word Salah stands for Dua, supplication and turning towards Allah,
for Allah's (swt) Blessings, it is used in several meanings.
When it has been used for 'Namaz' or when it has become a technical term,
that we know from the context or the backdrop.
So all the scholars have been doing this, I am not independent in this.
All will tell you where the word 'Kufr' is being used as a technical term,
or where it is being used in its literal meaning?
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] I gave examples to you just now,
when it was stated, "Main Yaghfuru Bitaghut",
one who denies Taghut, obviously, here that 'Kufr' which the Quran
declares as the biggest deviation, hasn't been used in that meaning.
Here it is used on the occasion for praise.
Hence, on different occasions,
even while speaking the Arabic language
we use this word, If I wish to say that
so and so person does not even accept that
the Earth revolves around the Sun,
he does not agree, denies it, negates it,
then we can use the word 'Kafir' for it and will do it without hesitation.
Here the topic itself will tell that it is in the literal sense.
And when we will bring it into its technical use
then obviously the aspect of discussion will become clear from it.
These interpretations will become clear to you by themselves.
Now you see that I am beginning from Surah 'Aaraaf',
The Aayaat of Surah Aaraaf which I am going to read to you start from 75.
It is stated,"Qalal Malaiul Lazee Nastakbiru Min Qaumihi
Lil Lazee Nastuzifu Li Man Aamana Minhum Wa Talamuna
Anna Salihan Mursalum Mir Rabbi Qalu Inna Bima Ursila Bihi Muminoon".
The elders of his nation who had become arrogant said
to their subordinates who had accepted Iman,
i.e. on one side are the people who are weak,
they have accepted Iman, who are in opposition to them?
The elders of the nation. The leaders, heads, they are asking them,
"Do you think that Saleh has been sent by his Lord?
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] i.e. such a silly thing is being said.
Do you think that a person who was born among us
has been chosen by Allah (swt) and made a Prophet?
They replied, who are they? The subordinates.
They replied that they accept the Message with which he has been sent.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] So what are the words used.
"Inna Bima Ursila Bihi Muminoon".
Obviously, the same term has been used here which we use for Iman.
When I will be asked, I will say that I am the Momin of the Prophet (pbuh).
I am the Momin of the Prophets.
So what reply did they give?
They replied that the Dawah which Saleh has come down with,
we are its Momin.
Exactly the same interpretation which we use for Iman,
they adopted the same. In reply to it,
"Qalal Lazee Nastakbiru Inna Billazee Amantum Bihi Kaafiroon".
On this, the arrogant said, i.e. how are they responding,
They replied 'But we deny that which you have accepted'.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] So now when they said this,
what was the term used by them?
"Inna Billazee Amantum Bihi Kaafiroon",
i.e. on that which you have brought Iman, i.e. on which you are Momin,
we are its 'Kafir'.
[Hassan] They said themselves that they are its kafir.
[Ghamidi] That we are its 'Kafirs'.
So I am saying when the Quran has for these nations,
for their leaders, for their heads, used the word Kafir
when they themselves are proclaiming themselves as Kafir.
They are self-confessed criminals in their 'Kufr' (Disbelief).
i.e. they are stepping ahead and proclaiming that
the Dawah the Prophet (pbuh) has come with, we are clearly denying it.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] Let us go ahead.
Now, this is Surah Ibrahim, I will read it from Ayah 9,
"Alam Yaatikum Nabaullazeena Min Qablikum Qaumi Nuhim
Wa Aadim Wa Samud Wallazeena Mim Baadihim
Laa Yaalamuhum Ilallah Jaatuhum Rasuluhum Bil Bayyinaati
Fa Raddu Aidiyahum Fi Afwahihim Wa Qalu Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum
Bihi, Wa Inna Lafi Shakkim Mimma Tadunana Ilahi Mureeb"
Its translation is,
"Has there not reached you the news of those before you",
now you see that the Prophets of Allah who have come,
their reference is given,
'Has there not reached you the news of those before you",
the people of Noah and Aad and Samud and those after them?
i.e. the mention of all the Prophets has been made.
No one knows them but Allah.
i.e. all the Prophets, about whom you don't even know
as to who all were they? I am going to talk about all of them.
This is stated by Allah (swt).
"No one knows them but Allah.
Their Messengers", i.e. the prophets of those nations,
the different nations that existed in the world.
"Their Messengers brought them clear proofs".
"But they placed their hands to their mouths to shut them up".
i.e. they refused to listen to them. And said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that
with which you have been sent".
What are the words?
"Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum Bihi".
The same term 'Kufr' is used.
We have done 'Kufr' with what you have been sent.
[Hassan] They have themselves confessed for it.
[Ghamidi] They have confessed it themselves.
"We disbelieve in that
and indeed, about that to which you invite us,
we are really in troublesome doubt".
i.e. here is a confession for their suspicion as well as their 'Kufr'.
Both the points had been stated nonchalantly.
And therefore they have themselves confessed
to the point that they are 'Kafir', we have accepted
'Kufr' in place of Deen, on one side, there are Momin
who are expressing Iman on the Prophet,
on the other are we, who deny the Dawah of the Prophet,
as we say in Urdu, 'Munkir',
and if we say it in Arabic, then it is 'Kafir'.
"Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon".
This has been stated.
After this is Surah Haam Mim as-Sajdah. I shall read the Aayaat, from Ayah 13.
"Fa In Aarazu Fa Qul Anzartukum Saaiqatim Misla Saaiqati
Aaddin Wa Samud Iz Jaat Humur Rusulu Mim Baine
Aidihim Wa Mim Khalfihim Alla Taabudu Ilallahu Qalu
Lau Sha'a Rabbuna La Anzala Malaika Wa Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
The translation is, "But if they turn their faces",
i.e the Prophet is giving Dawah and they are evading him.
"But if they turn their faces, then say to them",
'I warn you of a thunderbolt like the thunderbolt,
which overtook Aad and Samud"
This is being said to the Prophet of Allah that
he must tell them that they too are negating a Prophet,
they too are refusing a Prophet's mission, you too are falsifying a Prophet.
so the consequences that are there for negating a Prophet,
I am warning you about them.
"When Messengers came to them from before them
and behind them, i.e. Dawah was given to them from every side,
so that they may be made to understand from each aspect,
saying, 'Worship none but Allah'. This is the summary of their Dawah.
"They said, 'Had our Lord so wished, He would have sent down Angels'.
How come you have stood amongst us?
"Therefore", now listen to the reply,
"we disbelieve in the Message with what you have been sent"
"we are 'Kafirs' of the Message with which you have been sent".
What are the original words?
"Fa Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
so note here too, they are themselves confessing
to the fact that they are 'Kafirs' of that Message,
they are not ready to accept that Message.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] And at the end of this chain,
I am reading a part of Surah 'Zukhruf',
here the full point has been stated in great detail.
The Aayaat start from Ayah 20 onwards. It is stated,
"Wa Qaalu Lau Sha ar Rahmanu Ma Abadnahum Maalahum
Bi Zaalika Min Ilm In Hum Billah Yakhrusun
Am Atainahum Kitaabun Mim Qablihim Fa Hum Bihi
Mustamsikoon Bal Qalu Inna Wajadna Aabaa'ana
Ala Ummatin Wa Inna Ala Asaarihim Muhtadoon
Wa Kazaalika Maa Arsalna Min Qablika Fi Kariatim
Min Nazeer Illa Qala Mutarafuha Inna Wajadna
Aaba'ana Ala Ummatim Wa Inna Ala Asaarihim Muqtadoon
Qala Wa Lau Jetukum Bi Ahda Minwajadtum Alaihi
aba'a kum Qaalu Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon
Fan Taqamna Minhum Fanzur Kaifa Kana Aaqibatul Mukazzibin"
Now look at the translation,
And they said, "If the Most Merciful had wished"
"And they said, "If Most Merciful God had wished,
we would not have worshipped them".
i.e. the Prophets came, they are giving Dawah for Tawheed,
they are stopping them from Shirk, and in reply they are saying,
"If Most Merciful God had wished,
we would not have worshipped them".
They have no knowledge of this. They are merely guessing.
"Or have we given them a book before
to which they are adhering to in support of their foolishness".
Nay! They say,
"We found our fathers following a superior way
and religion, and we guide ourselves by their footsteps".
And similarly, O Prophet, We sent not a warner before you to any town
This is purely a general style ...
this has happened in all cases, this has taken place with all peoples.
This has happened with the nations of every Prophet.
"We sent not a warner before you to any town"
but the rich ones among them the 'Aghnia', the elders, its elite,
"but those living in luxury among them, said this only
"We found our fathers following a superior way
and religion, and we guide ourselves by their footsteps".
Their warner, i.e. the Prophet said,
"Even if I bring you better guidance than it,
i.e. still will you follow that way? "which you found your fathers following?"
They replied, "Verily, We are disbelievers (Kafir)
in that with which you have been sent."
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] "Qaalu Inna Bima
Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
With what you have been sent
we do not accept it, we deny it, we are its 'Kafir'.
When the matter has reached to such a pass,
so We took retribution on them for their rebellion.
Then see what was the end of those who denied?
Hence you see, a few places of the Quran have been presented to you.
The point is that the Quran adopts the technical terminology
of the word 'Kufr' on any occasion when it tells that what is Kufr?
When it tells as to who are the Kuffaar (Kafirs).
Exactly similar to when it tells what is Iman and who is a Momin or a Muslim?
This is the statement of Dawah. It is the description of the Deen.
Or it will use it when it points to a specific group,
and will give its reference that this was said by the Deniers (Kafirs).
This was said by the 'Munkirs'. So who are these people?
These are the people who have themselves confessed of their 'Kufr'.
They voice their 'Kufr' by themselves.
Hence in the Quran these are two interpretations,
or the two facets of the word,
which has been adopted in different places by Allah (swt).
These are the usages in Quran.
In the matter of the usages of the Quran, there cannot be two opinions.
i.e. you, the Ulema of Muslim Ummah, or I,
who can have a second opinion in this matter?
Obviously, when we have to state Deen to the people, what will we tell them?
We will only tell them as to what is Islam or what is Iman?
[Hassan] The standards. [Ghamidi] And when we would explain,
that be steadfast on this Iman, or on this Islam,
then against it sometimes Shirk would come into the discussion
or sometimes Kufr' would be discussed.
And we shall only tell as to what is Kufr or who is a Kafir?
These things have been mentioned in Ahadees,
in the discussions of Ulema as well. You and I would also state them.
I am repeatedly drawing attention that
there isn't any scope of disagreement in this.
[Hassan] Absolutely no scope. [Ghamidi] After this comes,
the pronouncement about a particular person or group
that they are Kafir.
The topic 'Takfeer' which has been given is now being discussed.
Now, what lies here. It is not that I am stating what is Kufr?
Or I am defining a kafir. Or I am defining that this is theft.
Or I am stating what constitutes a thief?
Or I am stating that this is adultery.
Or that I am stating this is what an adulterer is.
No, things have moved ahead of this.
[Hassan] You are an adulterer. [Ghamidi] I'm saying that 'You are Kafir'.
I say that you are an adulterer. I am saying that you are a thief.
i.e. my addressee can be an individual
or my addressee can be a group or a collective as well.
When I proclaim this, things do not remain as simple.
I have elaborated its one situation that when we will read the Quran thoughtfully
then we will learn that the nations of the Prophets
who have disbelieved in the Prophets, then their elite, their arrogant,
their elders, their heads, they stepped ahead themselves
and listened to the Dawah of the Prophets,
and after that said, "Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
[Hassan] They had confessed themselves.
[Ghamidi] We are Kafirs (of it).
Hence the question doesn't arise of pronouncing someone as Kafir.
Here an admission has taken place,
i.e. when I said that I am a Momin, so now I am a confessional Momin,
and when I said that I am a Kafir, so now I am a confessional Kafir.
In the same way, when I had stepped ahead to confess that
I am a thief, or I am an adulterer, or I said that I am a robber,
or I have committed robbery. So when I am confessing my crime myself,
after this, the question never arises as to whether
he is to be called a Kafir or not. i.e. this Takfeer hasn't been done by me,
he himself has confessed of his Kufr.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] What does Takfeer mean?
Takfeer means that I proclaim someone to be a 'Kafir'.
i.e. I have to declare of someone else, that he/she is Kafir.
This is termed as 'Takfeer'.
We should first make this word very clear.
The point with which I have differed starts from here.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] i.e. whatever I have said
prior to it, there isn't any scope of having any difference of opinion.
'Kufr' will also be stated and who is a Kafir, will also be explained.
In the same way, this too will be stated that
the arrogant from so and so tribe have declared themselves as 'Kafir'.
The Prophets also referred to them in the same way.
When the elite among them said,
the Prophets too referred to them in the same way.
This will be stated by you as well as by me,
there does not arise any question of debate on this point.
Where does the point start from? The point starts from those people,
the specific group, or collective, or a particular person,
they are neither accepting nor denying.
They did not own up that they are Kafir.
The Dawah did not reach any of them.
None was even told of it.
At present, if we look around in the world,
we may find 10 or 20 thousand people who are stepping ahead
and openly declaring that we are 'Munkir' (Denier) of Islam.
We are 'Kafir'. These are not included in this.
They are confessing to their 'Kufr'.
[Hassan] They are in the first category. [Ghamidi] They would be active
on the social media, would be writing in newspapers,
or would be writing some book,
so the intellectuals and the like are coming forward
and confessing to their atheism and their 'Kufr'.
What discussion will we do with them?
Or what I will say about them?
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] Whatever they are saying,
I will give a reference of them.
i.e. if I have to refer to them sometime at all,
then I will say that so and so atheist has this opinion
and so and so sceptic hold this opinion.
And so and so Kafir has this opinion.
[Hassan] He himself is telling it.
[Ghamidi] for the reason they are telling this about themselves.
They are introducing themselves in this capacity.
They are comimg forward with their Dawah, i.e. the Dawah for 'Kufr'.
The way we have come forward with the Dawah for Islam,
they have come forward with the Dawah for Kufr.
However, presently, there are billions of people,
who have neither taken a stand on denial or acceptance.
[Hassan] For example? [Ghamidi] Presently, our Hindus,
Christians, Buddhists, all of these people
who surround us that these are in millions and billions,
i.e. the Muslim population of the world is 1.5 billion at the most.
Rest of the people who surround us,
we see in our own country, the Christians, the Hindus,
they are following their ancestral Deen,
who has presented the Dawah to them?
When have they denied? Neither acceptance nor denial.
They are living their lives.
These are the people about whom we are discussing
as to what we have to say about them?
Regarding them, I have stated the point that
we cannot call them with any name other than Non-Muslims.
[Hassan] Okay. [Ghamidi] These are the people
who are under discussion.
Those people are not under discussion who have confessed of their 'Kufr'.
Those people are not under discussion who are calling people to Kufr.
i.e. they are proclaiming that they are Kafir,
they are proclaiming that they are Mushrik.
Like, before Yathrib (Madinah) when the Prophet (pbuh) was in Makkah,
then the polytheists of Arabia used to say that
they have adopted Shirk as their Deen.
That is not under discussion. The subject of discussion is
these people who are spread across the world,
they are residing in our countries,
look at Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan or the sub-continent,
there a tens of Millions of Hindus, and followers of Buddhism,
tens of millions of Christians, are there, these are the people
about whom the question arises that can we call them Kafir?
This is the question to which I have replied that
there isn't even the question of rejecting the Dawah
of the Prophets among them. They are like us,
as we are born in our homes, the Deen which is taught by our parents
we follow it accordingly, the same is their situation.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] i.e. whatever they have learned
from their parents, whatever they have received from their society,
accordingly, they are spending their lives.
And that what would be their fate is not in the purview of our discussion now.
What would we call them? So have they stepped forward
to declare Iman? They haven't done so. So we can't call them a Momin.
We can't declare them a Muslim. Have they stepped ahead
and negated our Deen and the Prophets?
We can't call them Kafir too.
[Hassan] Practically it is so if they haven't accepted it.
[Ghamidi] Practically, everyone stands at the same level.
We too are practically negating many things.
Hence, I have explained to you that the moment a person comes forward
and proclaims that I have indulged in Kufr,
at that time he himself confesses to his crime.
He himself is confessing to his sin or of his creed.
Till now he hasn't even accepted any of the two.
When we will approach them with the Dawah,
i.e. when did the Prophets raise this question?
When they had presented their Dawah? When they took the message across.
When they presented their point to them.
When they presented it, their followers said that
we have accepted Iman on them, we are Momin,
in reply the arrogant among them said that we are 'Kafir'
deniers of what they have brought.
[Hassan] The point is absolutely clear.
[Ghamidi] So there the line of demarcation is drawn in the most certain terms.
Here the countless people are an audience for our Dawah.
We shall communicate Deen to them.
We shall take the Book of Allah across to them.
We shall present them with the Message of Allah.
To them, we will tell what is Kufr?
To them, we will convey as to what is Iman?
We will tell them who is called a 'kafir'?
We will teach them who is a Momin?
Here our relationship with them is that of Dawah.
We cannot adopt the way of Takfeer regarding them.
Firstly, now I am telling you, what is the point that I am making?
What is the extent of the point which I have stated?
So I am now going to read to you my own words.
This is from my book 'Maqamaat', here we have an article
with the title 'Muslim and Non-Muslim'.
I have written here, "Other than Islam,
the rest of the followers of all religions are called Non-Muslims.
i.e. we have a particular strength of number in this world, so all of us,
irrespective of being good or bad or whatever, what are we called?
Muslims. Who are the ones who are other than us?
Those who are not Muslims. Other than the followers of Islam,
the followers of all religions are called Non-Muslims.
The same term is for those too who do not subscribe to any religion.
We call them the same i.e. they are Non-Muslims.
It is not a word of insult, rather it is an expression
of the fact that they do not believe in Islam.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] i.e. what are they saying?
You had said, what does a Hindu say? i.e. through his conduct.
He says that I do not believe in Islam.
He is saying just this much.
[Hassan] Since he is Non-Muslim and this is implied with it.
[Ghamidi] He being a Non-Muslim, it is his statement.
He hasn't introduced himself as a Kafir.
Since the process of that relationship of Dawah
is yet to be established with him, post which the issue of Kufr or Iman arises.
He is just saying that I do not subscribe to Islam.
Generally, such people are also called 'Kafir'.
i.e. people often call these Non-Muslims as Kafir.
However, I have elaborated with justifications that
for Takfeer, the Conclusive communication of God's proof is required.
Now, the point is that the Completion of Arguments of God's truth is a must.
What does it imply? It implies that when we say,
that so and so person is a thief,
and that person comes and owns up that he is in fact a thief,
then no witnesses are required. There is no need for a lawsuit.
If the matter is put up before a judge then
at the most, as I had said, he will record that confession,
like when people came to the Prophet (pbuh)
and confessed to adultery and stated that they have committed this crime,
so the Prophet (pbuh) asked some questions an emphatic tone,
so that it gets completely clear as to
what are they speaking and what is their confession?
Hence, the punishment was imposed based on the confession.
Here there isn't any need for a debate.
I am telling about a person that he is an adulterer,
I am saying that he is a thief, now a great responsibility has come upon me,
i.e. what is it now? Now I have to establish my case.
Hence this act of establishing the case,
is called Itmam-e Hujjat (Conclusive proof of God's Truth).
i.e. when a matter is carried out in a Court, then what does a Court do?
The Court asks the person whether he confesses to this crime?
If he confesses to that crime. then there is no issue.
However, if he says that no, this is an accusation against me,
this is a blame put on me, I haven't committed any theft,
I haven't committed adultery. So now it is a must that
the conclusive proof is established on him
and how does that proof gets established?
It gets established through witnesses. After that, we accumulate
circumstantial evidence, post that we bring in various proofs
and after this, the Judge passes the judgement that he is a thief.
After this, now we have the right to call him a thief.
After this we get the right to call him a thief.
Before this, if we say anything about a person then either
a libel suit will be filed against us,
and if we accuse someone of adultery, then 80 lashes will be given on our backs.
It is not a simple issue. If the confession is there
then there isn't any question. We haven't committed any crime.
If the confession does not exist, then there are lawsuits,
first there would be established conclusive proof for it,
i.e. through arguments, through evidence and witnesses,
his crime would be proven on him, when it is proven,
the Court will give its verdict on it.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] With regard to Kufr and Shirk,
which is the Court? The Court of the Lord of the skies.
This lawsuit does not relate to any worldly Court.
This lawsuit goes into the Court of God,
so when the Prophets or the Messengers of Allah
are on Earth, then Allah gives His Verdict.
And when the Verdict is given, so the Quran has told us
the punishments for Kufr and Shirk.
Azaab-e Aleem (Extreme Torture) and Azaab-e Azeem (Great Torment).
These are not ordinary crimes. When we say that so and so person
has committed 'Kufr' like when we say that
so and so person is a thief, then its punishment is declared,
that hand is chopped off, in the same way,
when we say he is Mushrik, when we say he is a kafir,
whether it is an individual or a group,
then what is the punishment for it from Allah (swt)?
Azaab-e Azeem or Azaab-e Aleem. Torturous Torment, great agony.
Its punishment is the hellfire. Hence the court of Allah (swt) decides.
It decides in the world, when the Prophets are sent.
It will make the judgement in Aakhirah
when the Court is established on that Day.
Hence for both these decrees, the final proof of God's truth is required.
'Itmaam-e Hujjat' implies here the same exercise
that was carried out to prove the accused as the thief.
The same exercise would be done here too,
and with what objective would it be done?
To prove an accused Kafir as a Kafir,
as he has not confessed to his Kufr.
[Hassan] Right. [Ghamidi] So when we say about someone
that he is a Mushrik, or he is a Kafir,
I repeat again if we say that it is Kufr or we say that it is Shirk,
then we are describing the Deen.
We are putting an academic suit before the people.
When we say that such and such is Kafir, or such an such is a Mushrik,
then we are giving Dawah or conveying a Message.
When we say that so and so person, Zaid or Umar or a certain group,
are kafir or Mushrik, then what, in essence, are we doing?
We are actually convicting someone, and this act of convicting
either will be through confession or through the conclusive proof of it.
And I have said, like in case of worldly crimes,
for example, theft, or for example, adultery for these
the conclusive proof is established in the Court.
Exactly in the same way, with regard to Kufr and Shirk,
the conclusive proof is established by the Prophets of Allah,
and when the conclusive proof is established by the Prophets of Allah,
then the punishment is meted out in the world as well
and announcement of Kufr and Shirk for those groups are done.
i.e. declaration is made for them being Kafir and Mushrik.
And in the case of those where this Decree wasn't issued in this world,
regarding them, the Decree will be issued by the Court of God in Qiyamah.
This is a summary of my stand on this issue.
Therefore, I will read to you the full paragraph.
Here it is stated, "However, we have made it clear in our books
supported by justifications, that for Takfeer,
Itmaam-e Hujjat (Conclusive Argument of God's Truth)
is necessary, and it is known only to God
and He only can tell
whether there has actually taken place or not
the Conclusive Proof of God's Truth on any individual or group.
i.e. in the way the Court passes the Decree,
or the Judge passes a Judgement, in the same way,
Kufr and Shirk are crimes related to God,
their Judgments would be passed by God.
And now only we can call him a Kafir.
Hence after the departure of the Prophet (pbuh) from the world,
this Right is no more available to any person or group that
he pronounces someone a Kafir".
This is a part of my stand on this topic.
i.e. I have elaborated that when I have made the point that
presently the millions and billions of people that exist in the world,
and those who do not subscribe to Islam, what would be said about them?
I have stated that they would be called Non-Muslims.
We cannot call them kafir, as they have not confessed to their Kufr',
and for the reason that though the arrangement of Itmaam-e Hujjat,
though present in the world,
whether it has been carried out or not,
its Decree has not been issued from Heaven.
It takes place in the presence of the Prophets.
for these people this decision will be made in the Qiyamah,
there the Lord of this world will Pronounce His Final Decree
as to who was a Kafir and who had been a Mushrik?
[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, for Takfeer,
the Conclusive Proof of God's Truth is necessary,
without it, we cannot pronounce a person who denies Islam as
a Kafir though we can call him a Non-Muslim.
There are a lot many supplementary points to it,
further clarifications would be required for our understanding.
The first introduction is crystal clear,
that if the people are confessing to it, then there is no hesitation
to declare them Kafir,
the Quran also has discussed this backdrop,
however, what will be the matter with them?
We will also learn from you that if the Muslims go ahead
and shun the basic concepts of Deen,
then what does the Quran say about their Takfeer?
What is your viewpoint? We will present each one of them to you.
The time runs out here. We will again be at your service.
Thank you very much for your time till now.
[Ghamidi] Thank you very much.