WEBVTT 00:00:00.299 --> 00:00:05.610 Herald: Hello, and welcome back to the FM- channel. Our next speaker is Kai Konsa. 00:00:05.610 --> 00:00:11.340 He's a professor at the Graduate School of Media Design at Cairo University Japan. 00:00:11.340 --> 00:00:15.870 His talk will be about focus on Wirfs. From what I understood is that it's about 00:00:15.870 --> 00:00:20.930 shivers and goosebumps in media performances that are usually spontaneous. 00:00:20.930 --> 00:00:27.140 But somehow he and his team managed to induce them artificially. But I'm very 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:33.560 forward. I'm looking very forward to this talk as I don't really understand it. But 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:40.520 now, if you want to ask questions in the end, RC at the Channel rc3-fm in the 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:46.129 rocket chat at the Channel FM and on Twitter, and the videos and the hashtag 00:00:46.129 --> 00:00:51.210 3FM without the Dash, you can ask questions that will be answered in the Q&A 00:00:51.210 --> 00:00:53.790 session afterwards. *repated but on english* 00:00:53.790 --> 00:00:58.590 Allardyce parking Seotioa your current idea that some 200 images of a player for 00:00:58.590 --> 00:01:04.830 native of translated and that and now I'm looking forward to a hopefully very 00:01:04.830 --> 00:01:09.770 interesting talk. Konsa: Hello and welcome to my talk 00:01:09.770 --> 00:01:16.630 "Frisson Waves", augmenting esthetic chills in classical music performances. 00:01:16.630 --> 00:01:25.830 This is conceptual, early research work from collaboration of a lot of artists, 00:01:25.830 --> 00:01:33.799 designers, researchers, and I'm just speaker to introduce it to you a little 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:39.729 bit. My name is Kai. And in the next 20 minutes, I will talk to you a little bit 00:01:39.729 --> 00:01:46.580 about what is Frisson. Give you a bit of motivation and background information, why 00:01:46.580 --> 00:01:55.320 we are interested in this feeling. And then I will talk about how can we 00:01:55.320 --> 00:02:03.380 recognize into youth and also share Frisson. And then at the end, I'll talk 00:02:03.380 --> 00:02:11.620 about some conclusion and a little bit of outlook. So the question is, what is 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:18.480 Frisson? You might not have heard the term, I actually haven't heard Frisson 00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:25.840 before we started the research. Two and a half years, three years ago. But I 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:31.849 definitely knew the feeling. So if you're listening attentively to a musical piece, 00:02:31.849 --> 00:02:39.480 sometimes you might get goose bumps or some shiver down your spine. And that is 00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:46.650 usually triggered from the music. Frisson is from the French shivers and sorry, my 00:02:46.650 --> 00:02:55.800 pronunciation with the German accent. So you applied for that, I hope. And it's 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:01.849 this psycho physiological phenomenon, that we feel when we get these goose bumps or 00:03:01.849 --> 00:03:11.519 shivers that are triggered from music, but also other. If you insist and you might 00:03:11.519 --> 00:03:20.610 wonder why goosebumps, how can goosebumps be related to a positive feeling? There is 00:03:20.610 --> 00:03:32.819 actually no need to answer theories. I'm one that I particularly like, is that 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:37.319 Frisson is often induced over music or over some kind of stimulus that is 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:42.361 repetitive, that has a certain pattern, and that at one point the pattern breaks 00:03:42.361 --> 00:03:50.629 and that surprises you. So this triggers your autonomous nervous system. So the 00:03:50.629 --> 00:03:56.099 fight or flight response you get to surprise you wonder alertness goes up and 00:03:56.099 --> 00:04:03.370 you realize that there's no danger and you will relax. And feel this esthetic chills. 00:04:03.370 --> 00:04:13.349 So the talk, I will give today is an exploration of the feeling of Frisson with 00:04:13.349 --> 00:04:21.500 technology. So how could we detect, induce or transmit it using especially variable 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:26.419 sensors and actuators and to be a little bit aclimactic? I can already tell you 00:04:26.419 --> 00:04:33.340 that this is still in process. So this is really exploratory work. However, you 00:04:33.340 --> 00:04:42.540 might also wonder why do you care about this? Why do you want to do this? And you 00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:48.880 know, one reason, of course, is. Because we can and because it's fun, and I think 00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:55.510 that's definitely, you know, kind of one aspect of of the research, however. Also 00:04:55.510 --> 00:05:02.509 another reason is so our lab in Yokohama works in human factors, research, so HCI 00:05:02.509 --> 00:05:09.130 and human computer interaction. And we lately revisited a lot of work also from 00:05:09.130 --> 00:05:16.550 cybernetics, also nonlinear dynamics in terms of research and also in terms of art 00:05:16.550 --> 00:05:22.550 and performance. We are very much inspired by Stilnox work on extending and 00:05:22.550 --> 00:05:31.430 augmenting our body. And there's this realization, if you work on research that, 00:05:31.430 --> 00:05:35.560 you know, knowledge is not merely functional, there's always some kind of 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:42.650 enjoyment in understanding a concept. And I think also this community will really 00:05:42.650 --> 00:05:47.880 understand that type of feeling and this sense of wonder and this feeling we also 00:05:47.880 --> 00:05:53.760 want to explore. We want to understand ourselves better in terms of cognition 00:05:53.760 --> 00:06:00.660 perception, but also in terms of our feeling. And actually, last year, I gave 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:06.960 also a talk on on boiling mind on an Frisson loop that we played with and 00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:12.460 started researching on. And to some extent, this expression. If this all beef 00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:17.400 talk is just the continuation of this, and overall, we are also looking for more 00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:23.880 creative ways to use physiological data or other wearable computing sensing that is 00:06:23.880 --> 00:06:33.000 not related to surveillance. So extended to this, we also wonder what does it mean 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:40.449 to be life? It's easy if you think about transmitting audio video, easy in 00:06:40.449 --> 00:06:45.490 quotation marks because yeah, there are some experts that know a lot about that. 00:06:45.490 --> 00:06:53.220 And I see also the effort that goes into the remote experience and not the 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:59.430 congresses or conferences. However, we still don't know how to transmit an 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:05.250 atmosphere or a feeling that's much more difficult. I think the Congress is a very 00:07:05.250 --> 00:07:11.430 nice example for that because it moved from Berlin to Hamburg to Leipzig. But 00:07:11.430 --> 00:07:17.139 every time I visited, I kind of felt at home. I felt, Oh yeah, these are, you 00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:23.319 know, kind of the people I like. These are the culture, the community I belong to, 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:29.050 even though it's at different places. And we wonder, you know, kind of how can we 00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:36.569 transmit at this type of feeling and to efforts that we get inspired from from 00:07:36.569 --> 00:07:42.340 this work is one is neuro life. That's a project, an EU project with co- 00:07:42.340 --> 00:07:50.330 investigator Jamie Ward and also cybernetic being project here in Japan, 00:07:50.330 --> 00:07:56.560 headed by Quarterman Minami. So that deals with things like parallel agency and 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:01.259 similar. And both of them are actually also collaborators in the work that I will 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:07.630 present today. So this is the high level overview why we are interested in this 00:08:07.630 --> 00:08:14.710 song, but now getting back to the esthetic chills. And first, the question is how 00:08:14.710 --> 00:08:22.620 could we go about and try to detect or recognize them? Looking into related work, 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:29.800 of course, we'll see Frisson is that chills, of course, affect our physiology. 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:35.090 And the first thing that you notice is, of course, the payload erection. So the goose 00:08:35.090 --> 00:08:40.710 bumps that you can get on your arm so the hairs go up. So we could try to detect 00:08:40.710 --> 00:08:44.990 that. However, that might be a little bit difficult because some people might not 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:53.690 have so much hair on on them and so on. So then looking into other physiological 00:08:53.690 --> 00:09:00.940 changes, respiratory rate is going up for the sweat glands, electro dermal activity. 00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:05.690 You will see more peaks. That's a stress and excitement indicator, and heart rate 00:09:05.690 --> 00:09:10.890 goes up, blood pressure goes up and usually heart rate variability related 00:09:10.890 --> 00:09:17.209 features go down. Because also, if you saw last year's talk, we already built a 00:09:17.209 --> 00:09:25.329 system to record electro dermal activity. So the sweating on the hand as well as 00:09:25.329 --> 00:09:34.050 heart rate we just thought will move along and use that. Luckily, we also did a 00:09:34.050 --> 00:09:38.760 redesign of the wristband bands in the meantime, so they look a little bit nicer 00:09:38.760 --> 00:09:45.260 now and you see also a life demo on my background right now. So you see EDA and 00:09:45.260 --> 00:09:54.300 heart rate behind and if I press here. You should also see some noise on the sensor. 00:09:54.300 --> 00:10:03.149 The visualization, by the way, is done by Kirill Ragodzin. So thanks for the work! 00:10:03.149 --> 00:10:08.990 And then moving forward, so we use these wristbands to set up a controlled 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:14.810 experiment to detect esthetic chill events. We just added a trigger, so to add 00:10:14.810 --> 00:10:19.620 some self-reporting to it. So in this case, we really use the user as a self- 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:27.470 report to classify or to label the Frisson events that has, of course, you know, also 00:10:27.470 --> 00:10:33.520 some limitations. So you hope that that's good enough to capture it. And we used 00:10:33.520 --> 00:10:39.740 some music pieces also from related work and did some counterbalancing and run this 00:10:39.740 --> 00:10:48.700 lab study just in know kind of controlled space or with headphones and so on. We 00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:54.640 finished this, but then we also wondered, you know, how does it look like in real 00:10:54.640 --> 00:11:02.560 life in the wild experiments? So we also organized a concert. With 18 audience 00:11:02.560 --> 00:11:08.800 members for one album musical program, and the set up was the same, so everybody got 00:11:08.800 --> 00:11:15.620 a wristband and a trigger. We also added a third for the pianist, so using EDA from 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:23.470 the foot actually works also relatively well and then recorded here the data and 00:11:23.470 --> 00:11:35.829 hope that people would report their focus on their esthetic chills. Here's now one 00:11:35.829 --> 00:12:32.310 video. A short minute video that shows you the recording. *piano music* How about the 00:12:32.310 --> 00:12:39.400 analysis? I have to see? I'm sorry the this is still ongoing, so we don't really 00:12:39.400 --> 00:12:43.710 have a lot of results yet. And of course, there were a lot of issues with the life 00:12:43.710 --> 00:12:48.810 recording. If you're interested in doing something similar, contact some of the 00:12:48.810 --> 00:12:54.810 technical stuff or also me. We can give you hints and doing this now over 15 or 20 00:12:54.810 --> 00:13:00.300 years and always do something is going wrong, depending on the setting and so on. 00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:05.490 Now I also know more about the classical music concerts. However, we got some 00:13:05.490 --> 00:13:11.000 useful data. The problem there was we could also train a machine learning model 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:16.010 because we really wanted to dect it real time. And it seemed to work really well. 00:13:16.010 --> 00:13:22.520 We are just still not sure if it really works or not, so we want to be very 00:13:22.520 --> 00:13:26.410 careful about that. So we get higher accuracy spec. But given the limited 00:13:26.410 --> 00:13:31.800 amount of uses we had also and we want to look into that a little bit more. However, 00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:36.220 the analysis, as well as the data sets, will be publicly available. And if you 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:41.279 want to get them a little bit earlier to also contact me. So then moving on, this 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.940 is the progress on detection. How does it look like for triggering or inducing 00:13:46.940 --> 00:13:55.899 Frisson? So there's also a lot of cool related work. I just show or highlight two 00:13:55.899 --> 00:14:03.350 of them. One is work by Shoko Fukushima at all. And they're using the electrostatic 00:14:03.350 --> 00:14:12.250 effect on the arm to control payload erection. And they use it to increase the 00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:17.670 surprise feeling of somebody, so you put your arm inside and they can control the 00:14:17.670 --> 00:14:24.060 payload erection. Other work is from Ha at all, whether using three Peltier elements 00:14:24.060 --> 00:14:31.550 on your back, on your spine and deactivate them upwards to also induce Frisson or 00:14:31.550 --> 00:14:39.610 static chills. The problem with those two setups, it's quite hard to get them into a 00:14:39.610 --> 00:14:44.190 into a concert hall. And, you know, some people might not really have much hair on 00:14:44.190 --> 00:14:49.699 their arms or so on, so there might be limitations for it. So then, you know, for 00:14:49.699 --> 00:14:56.009 first iteration, we decided to go for a neck prototype, because kind of the neck 00:14:56.009 --> 00:15:02.620 is also a part of some of the Frisson responses. So you get either chills down 00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:08.509 the spine or up the neck or also your hair might stand up. So we thought it's a good 00:15:08.509 --> 00:15:12.630 start and we used first healthy elements or thermal modules and also vibrant 00:15:12.630 --> 00:15:18.350 tactile feedback. In later iterations we moved just to a thermal feedback to 00:15:18.350 --> 00:15:25.009 activate this on the back of the neck around on the upper side of the trapezius 00:15:25.009 --> 00:15:32.260 muscle, and they would activate with slight cold feedback. So for an initial 00:15:32.260 --> 00:15:37.940 tests, it seemed to work or just this, just with 10 participants, around 30 00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:44.380 minutes per participant, we had two music pieces that are based on related works or 00:15:44.380 --> 00:15:51.080 Chopin and Gustav Holst. We counterbalance the conditions or music pieces with 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:56.880 neckband without neck bent with neck bent, with activation and without activation. 00:15:56.880 --> 00:16:03.570 And from an initial test, we can see that it seems that slight cold feedback really 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:09.010 provides more instances of reported Frisson. So there is a slight positive 00:16:09.010 --> 00:16:12.139 feedback, but you know, it was still quite little participants and we'll have to 00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:17.750 continue and see also with a little bit of redesign. So we want to change the order 00:16:17.750 --> 00:16:25.130 and placement of the pelty elements for the continuation work as well. Now moving 00:16:25.130 --> 00:16:30.650 to the last part, so we talked about detection, induction, and now let's talk 00:16:30.650 --> 00:16:37.880 about sharing or transmitting Frisson. He had the idea would be, you know, you are 00:16:37.880 --> 00:16:45.199 listening to a musical piece, a classical piece and one person gets Frisson, does 00:16:45.199 --> 00:16:52.230 this detect it over the wristband and then it's distributed ripples through the 00:16:52.230 --> 00:17:00.670 neighbors? They get activated over the Nick Bend and hopefully also free Frisson 00:17:00.670 --> 00:17:08.309 again around the same time it just after the red circled person felt that the 00:17:08.309 --> 00:17:13.199 esthetic chills. So in this case, then, you know, we would have all of the 00:17:13.199 --> 00:17:18.309 audience members need to wear sensors and actuators, and we would need to freshen 00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:27.530 detection and also then the activation based on that. And for that, we also 00:17:27.530 --> 00:17:33.700 organized a not a concert in this case, 50 audience members. The program was around 00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:43.270 1,5 hours. And the set up was, as you see here. So performers on the top, and then 00:17:43.270 --> 00:17:51.340 we had two sections. One saw 25 users would wear just the wristband as a kind of 00:17:51.340 --> 00:17:58.360 control group. And the second group, 25 users would wear wristband and neck bent, 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:02.929 so it would get to actually the detection and also the activation. That's all, you 00:18:02.929 --> 00:18:10.180 know, 50 plus wristbands needed charging and 25 neck bands were manufactured, and 00:18:10.180 --> 00:18:18.000 this is the picture from the actual concert with an nick bent section. And 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:22.640 here is how this should work, so, you know, you have first one person, you 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.960 detect the Frisson and then you ripple it out to the neighbors, then the next person 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:34.710 might feel Frisson we detected over the wristband and then replay it out to the 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:40.680 other people that haven't gotten activation yet and so on. So you have then 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:50.559 a wave of Frisson hopefully moving through the audience members. This is not a setup 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.720 up, yab he (NAME!) who also did a lot of the organization parts or so on at the 00:18:54.720 --> 00:19:02.630 piano, and he is then a small video that summarizes the work. And at the end you 00:19:02.630 --> 00:19:08.090 see also the servers, the recording server, the activation server and the I 00:19:08.090 --> 00:19:38.100 know the detection server and also the activation server. *piano music playes* 00:19:38.100 --> 00:20:25.070 *one person plays piano, another plays chello* So the question you might have 00:20:25.070 --> 00:20:35.140 now, did it work? Hmm. Not not completely sure. Again, here, work in progress or 00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:39.870 analysis is ongoing, and we can't also really see because, yeah, we had this 00:20:39.870 --> 00:20:44.890 control group and we could see more Frisson events in the sharing group. But 00:20:44.890 --> 00:20:49.460 how to interpret that, that's really, really difficult. We are also working on 00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:54.049 the design of the wristbands as well as the neckband and especially for the 00:20:54.049 --> 00:20:59.570 neckband. We got a couple of uses, I think five or six or seven that really didn't 00:20:59.570 --> 00:21:05.909 like the neckband, not the activations or the slight called activation was OK, but 00:21:05.909 --> 00:21:10.870 just because it was a little bit too tight and a little bit too uncomfortable. So 00:21:10.870 --> 00:21:16.049 we're working on a redesign we have for the next concert in april. All of the data 00:21:16.049 --> 00:21:23.130 make it also publicly available. Soon enough, look also a little bit more what 00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:27.880 we can find out about what happened. This brings me to the end of the presentation. 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:34.590 I hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, I just wanted to thank a couple of people first and 00:21:34.590 --> 00:21:44.370 foremost Yann He, who organized this Frisson , who introduced us. And also the 00:21:44.370 --> 00:21:49.180 teams are dismissed for their second concert. The extended team thanks a lot 00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:54.720 for everybody who was involved here, then also all of the names. So these are the 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.750 people that did the actual work did not just doing the presenting like I do right 00:21:58.750 --> 00:22:04.980 now. I hope I haven't missed anybody. So also, thanks to George, Dingding, Denny 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:10.470 and so on and all of the other people involved in group planning the studio 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:19.529 Apollo and also the piano NIST's and interactive performers. So thanks a lot. 00:22:19.529 --> 00:22:27.270 Yeah, that brings me to the end of the presentation. As I said, we have a third 00:22:27.270 --> 00:22:31.320 concert, probably in April next year in Yokohama, Tokyo area. So if you're 00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:36.670 interested, let me know also if you have a general interest in effect or similar 00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:43.400 phenomenon. Also, just write me an email. It would be good if you mentioned Frisson 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:49.750 remote experience in the subject, so I can just filter that out and something 00:22:49.750 --> 00:22:54.820 completely different. We also have a conference next year. March submission 00:22:54.820 --> 00:23:01.110 deadline is January 7th, augmented humans in Japan and Germany and cyberspace that 00:23:01.110 --> 00:23:11.419 deals with maybe similar work. So thanks a lot for listening and I hope. Yeah, I told 00:23:11.419 --> 00:23:16.850 you something interested in the last 20 minutes. By. 00:23:16.850 --> 00:23:21.620 Herald: Hello, and welcome back to the FM Channel, thank you Kay for the very 00:23:21.620 --> 00:23:25.400 interesting talk, and Kay should actually be with us to answer a few questions. 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.400 Hello, Kay. Kay: Hello. 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:33.210 Herald: And we actually do have a few questions already. And the first one 00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:39.279 sounds a bit more like a comment, but I tell you anyway. So one one viewer noted 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:42.960 that this a technical cybernetics and systems course here in Illmenau, the two 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.980 in the know and wanted to know if you were aware of this already. 00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:53.881 Kay: Actually, it wasn't, but it sounds that sounds quite fun and getting more and 00:23:53.881 --> 00:23:57.762 more interested in cybernetics as well. And I think it's useful to revisit some of 00:23:57.762 --> 00:24:03.730 the ideas around feedback loops, as I said at the beginning. So that's cool if you if 00:24:03.730 --> 00:24:08.000 you're already looking into that. And I think especially if people go into HCI 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.240 fields, I think it's quite useful to get a little bit of that background. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:17.809 Herald: Yes, nice. OK, let's go to the next question. It's about neural networks, 00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:22.620 which have the neural network was us. Have you considered neural net different doing 00:24:22.620 --> 00:24:27.240 differential equations such as echo-state network or reservoir computing, which are 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.490 good when modeling stiff time consciousness processes? 00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:37.039 Kay: That's actually a really good question and actually also good hint for 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:42.460 what to do next. I just tried to look up. I saw the question already. Also in the 00:24:42.460 --> 00:24:47.200 chat, I try to look up what we used, and I think at the beginning we just used 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:52.149 support vector machines, so not neural networks. And no, no, we are using some 00:24:52.149 --> 00:24:57.940 neural network, but I don't know the configuration and I couldn't check. I'll 00:24:57.940 --> 00:25:03.480 get back to the person who asked the question. What was interesting for me was 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:08.559 that the the data looks already quite good. The sensor data looks actually quite 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.610 good. And I would assume that in most cases, any classifier will do a decent job 00:25:15.610 --> 00:25:21.760 for the lab experiments for the other works. I think, yeah, that sounds quite 00:25:21.760 --> 00:25:29.000 interesting. I also want to go more towards, um yeah, nonlinear dynamics work 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:35.700 as well in terms of of of estimating Frisson or different feelings. But that's 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:41.140 that's a really good hint, that it would be more question also for Jo Ann Hunt, 00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:47.340 coauthor of the paper that is also linked. She is our data analyst and so on, and 00:25:47.340 --> 00:25:51.909 notes what what she used to the first classifier was a support vector machine 00:25:51.909 --> 00:25:56.130 fairly basic and I think recently we use a neural network, but I thought it's just 00:25:56.130 --> 00:26:01.810 very straightforward. PyTorch long training, but nothing, nothing special and 00:26:01.810 --> 00:26:06.020 nothing fancy so far. Herald: OK, nice, I guess I guess she will 00:26:06.020 --> 00:26:10.330 probably also hear from the questions then. And then let's go to the next 00:26:10.330 --> 00:26:15.620 question. Have you considered or tested the effects of editorial stimulus, such as 00:26:15.620 --> 00:26:20.890 attempting to cross Frisson Waves and in boring situations instead of like 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:29.980 interesting ones? Kay: That's also quite a good or 00:26:29.980 --> 00:26:35.000 interesting question. I mean, there were some some audience members also that 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:41.059 mentioned that Nick Bend was actually a little bit uncomfortable. So I'm not 00:26:41.059 --> 00:26:47.120 really sure if we cost Frisson with them. And I don't know what would happen if you, 00:26:47.120 --> 00:26:53.320 I think you probably would just make the situation uncomfortable anyways. I'm not 00:26:53.320 --> 00:27:00.710 sure what would happen then, if you stimulating called feedback. Actually, you 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:05.710 might get the fear response in these cases if you're in a boring situation, I'm not 00:27:05.710 --> 00:27:12.909 sure if you if you. Hmm. Yeah, I actually I don't know. It's definitely an 00:27:12.909 --> 00:27:21.240 interesting idea to to use it in boring situations. Can you get somebody to change 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:28.740 their? The feeling and get to the more excited state? We are playing often, we 00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:32.630 played a little bit with the thermal feedback and it was always interesting if 00:27:32.630 --> 00:27:37.450 you change the thermal feedback. So instead of if you see something hot in VR, 00:27:37.450 --> 00:27:42.230 you give cold stimulus or so on. It really is a little bit confusing and interesting. 00:27:42.230 --> 00:27:49.279 I haven't thought about that in Frisson situation. And if it works for boring 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.480 work, but it's definitely cool or interesting. So if somebody wants to play 00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:58.850 with that, I would be up for also giving a little bit of help or ideas in that 00:27:58.850 --> 00:28:04.130 direction. Herald: OK, thank you for. For answering 00:28:04.130 --> 00:28:11.809 these questions, unfortunately, that don't seem to be any more of them. So that's it. 00:28:11.809 --> 00:28:16.260 Thank you very much for the very interesting talk. That's a topic I haven't 00:28:16.260 --> 00:28:22.040 really thinking that much about, but thank you very much. It was very interesting. 00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:26.340 Kay: Thanks a lot also for having me, and it's always fun and I always enjoyed the 00:28:26.340 --> 00:28:30.940 feedback. Yet there's also a candlelight life demonstration behind me. So you saw 00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:34.539 my excitement level kind of increasing or decreasing with the questions. 00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:38.680 Herald: Oh wow, that's pretty cool. Kay: OK. Yeah, thanks a lot. 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:46.540 Herald: Then here and here on the FM channel, the next thing happening will at 00:28:46.540 --> 00:28:51.010 11:00 p.m. the lightening think talk or not on the film channel. But one of the 00:28:51.010 --> 00:28:56.059 next things happening at three will be at 11:00 p.m. The lightning talks at remote 00:28:56.059 --> 00:29:02.210 range. And here on on our channel, actually at 12:00 a.m. or midnight, there 00:29:02.210 --> 00:29:13.750 will be the next terror news show. And that until then by.