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Elissa Frankle is the Social Media [br]Strategist and Community Manager

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at United States Holocaust Memorial [br]Museum here in Washington DC.

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The title of her talk today is [br]"Making History with the Masses:

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Citizen History and Radical Trust in Museums.[br]So please join me in welcoming Elissa.

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(Elissa) Before I start I just wanted [br]to thank you, the fine people

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here at MITH for inviting me in.

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As a Social Media Manager[br]I don't usually spend a lot of time

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talking in front of the audiences anymore.[br]As I am thinking of the community

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behind the computer. This is a really[br]treat for me to actually be able

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to come out and talk with my voice about[br]things that are important to me, one of those

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things being citizen history[br]in a world of our users, and the work

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we do, as museums and cultural organizations.

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One of the things that is really important[br]in all of this is just to look at

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the words that we use when we're[br]talking about the way we interact

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with our users. So, in a sense[br]what we're going to talk about today

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is really what is citizen history?[br]Not just "what is citizen history"

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as a concept, but what is citizen,[br]what is history? And what's a museum?

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Really big concepts, really interesting[br]things and I don't promise to have

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all the answers today, because [br]most of these cases, there aren't

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real answers. That is the best part.

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But we're going to try and get a little bit[br]of the why to explore some of these questions.

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And see where we could get it[br]unlocking what would be the critical question,

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of what is citizen history,[br]and what can it be in the future.

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So Citizen History kind of came into being,[br]from it's early origins in Citizen Science

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and Crowdsourcing. Two other ways that[br]other fields have looked at using their

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public, to get down and dirty with their data.[br]We'll look at each of these in turn,

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first of all, starting with crowdsourcing.[br]Now, when you go to look at crowdsourcing

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on the internet, one of the first sites [br]you'll run into is crowdsource.com

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Not surprisingly. And they promise [br]500, 000 workers on demand.

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And what they promise for those workers[br]is that your data will be dealt with -- with results.

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In a speedy manner. So really using the crowd,[br]using the number of people you can just get

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cranking away on some amount of data,[br]some amount of rote tasks,

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to produce whatever the desired result is.[br]So the question here with crowdsourcing

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isn't so much about big answers[br]and big interaction, but it's more about

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a lot of people doing a lot of little things.[br]Museums and local organizations apply

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this crowdsourcing principle in a lot of[br]different ways. One of the projects we're

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talking about at lunch actually is[br]New York Public Library[br]

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What's On the Menu Project, [br]and it's companion project

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recently released, or about-to-be released,[br]the Ensemble Project.

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But in this case, transcribing menus,[br]and the other case, in transcribing playbills.

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Taking what's on the menu, what is on the playbill,[br]written it down into it's component parts,

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just saying, what do you see here,[br]what is the food that you see on this menu,

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and have someone transcribe that,[br]by some user. As a result, again, small task,

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just transcription where you look at it,[br]what is it that you see, you write down

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whatever it is that you see.[br]No real depth of thought

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going into to it, but again, a lot of[br]people working on a very small task

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for a long time, creating big results.[br]The other form of crowdsourcing

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that we see quite frequently[br]in cultural heritage organizations

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is the idea of, not necessarily putting[br]lots of small tasks into play,

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but working more from a [br]knowledge base, that the person has --

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the user have some kind of knowledge[br]that is personal to that person,

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that they then share with the Cultural[br]Heritage Organization.

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So again, not a lot of deep thought,[br]deep interaction with content,

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but a lot of sharing up, personally.[br]So rather than citizen history,

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the topic of what we're going[br]to talk about next, we have the history

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of citizens, growing on this kind of[br]crowdsourced environment.

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So if you are going to talk about crowdsourcing[br]we're going to talk about all these things,

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with framework in Bloom's Taxonomy,[br]this is an educational philosophy

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framework developed by Benjamin Bloom.[br]They talk about the different ways that

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students can engage with learning. [br]Everything from just remembering,

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kind of that rote level of "I see what it is, [br]I think about it, I write it back down"

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So the regurgitation model of looking[br]at that knowledge, they're understanding it,

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being able to classifying things, [br]up to application, they are able

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to choose to interpret, to draw[br]some kind of conclusion.

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And all the way at the top, to creation.[br]Starting from scratch, creating a product

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all by one's self. Crowdsourcing,[br]we tend to think it comes down,

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about this remembering, understanding,[br]basic level of proposition.

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This is not to say there's not value in it,[br]but it is just, it is very much on a rote level.

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I see what I have in front of me, [br]I take it, I transcribe it, I translate it,

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and I spit it back out in a usable format.[br]I have the knowledge in my head,

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I have some stories that I want to share[br]that I've been asked to share.

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And I take it out of my head, [br]and I write it down, and then to you.

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So crowdsourcing, microtasks,[br]on a macro scale.

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So lots of small things, lots of people together,[br]sharing their personal knowledge, or basic skills,

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really relying on that wisdom of the crowd.[br]So by having a lot of people working on

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something together, eventually something[br]will be completed, and answers will be given.

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Citizen science goes a little bit higher up, [br][inaudible]

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We're going to look now at two projects[br]From the Citizen Science Alliance,

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or the 'zooniverse' family of[br]citizen science projects.

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Here we see Galaxy Zoo, where[br]the Citizen Science Alliance

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and its partner organizations [br]have pictures of galaxies.

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And they walk through a four step process,[br]where they ask questions about what

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the users see in these galaxies. [br]Are they round? Are they spiral?

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What kinds of bulges do you see?[br]Just being able to classify what it is they're

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looking at by sight. Similarly we have [br]Planet Hunters, this is a, well,

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from their tutorial, where they walk through[br]premises on how you can identify a transit.

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Ways in which these levels that we see here,[br]dip down, when a planet transit is identified.

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So we have again the small idea of looking, classifying, [br]making a note, but in both these cases

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we also have this very exciting thing[br]that is a "free text box", where someone says

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"Do you see anything that is of interest,[br]is there anything that you want to discuss,

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from what you've seen?" So more than just[br]seeing, repeating, replicating, we have

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the ability to discuss, to take things [br]to a higher level, to really reflect on

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what it is that we're seeing. [br]So crowdsourcing, again, down

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at that lower level of Bloom's Taxonomy,[br]citizen science is the ability to go

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a little bit higher. Thinking about applying [br]the knowledge that you have,

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what you gained from doing the project,[br]thinking about science on a larger scale.

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So our basic principles of [br]Citizen Science say these these are

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volunteers, non-specialists,[br]people who are not trained in science

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Governed by and under the leadership [br]of people who know what they're doing in science,

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and have that training, or that title[br]of scientist, to answer real-world questions.

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Because scientists don't want people [br]to just look at galaxies for their help,

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though they are pretty just to look at anyway,[br]they want people to look at those galaxies

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so they can classify them and[br]know more about what's going on

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out there. In one article that I read [br]about galaxies, they mentioned that

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they first know what's successful when[br]they classify the amount of time,

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the amount of results found by these[br]citizen scientists, and the number of

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person hours that would have taken[br]for the original researcher who was going through

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by hand, on his own, looking at all these[br]galaxies on his own, to go through,

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and make these same distinctions.[br]They can do about fifty thousand a week,

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seventy thousand done in the first two days,[br]so it's a lot of things that you can do.

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Again, small tasks, macro scale, [br]lots of people, find the answers.

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So it seems to be a win-win proposition[br]for everybody. Professionals get data,

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volunteers build skills. They learn how to[br]look at a galaxy, what is it that they are

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looking at when they look at a galaxy.[br]How you identify it, the transit of a planet.

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So the real skills that a scientist use to[br]try and answer some of their questions,

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these citizen scientists actually get to use[br]on their own. So everybody wins, alright.

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In 2006, the United States Holocaust Memorial[br]Museum opened an exhibition called

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"Give me your children: Voices [br]from the Lodz Ghetto" This was an exhibition

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built around a student diarist,[br]child diarist, who then lived in the Lodz Ghetto,

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after 1940. One of the artifacts that[br]was part of this exhibition was an album.

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An album of 14,000 names, signed by the students[br]of the Lodz Ghetto, presented to

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(Mordechai) Chaim Rumkowski, who was the [br]administrator, on Rosh Hashanah,

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the Jewish newyear, 1941.[br]So we have this incredible artifact,

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this album full of signatures, and[br]we knew nothing about it.

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We knew that these were students[br]who had signed their names.

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We knew that they were about [br]thirty or so different schools

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who had students sign their names.[br]And we had another document that

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gave us some framework as to how old[br]these students were in each school.

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But, the question that we asked[br]as we brought this album forth

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was could you have[br]today's students, look through

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our data for the things that[br]we would normally be used

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as researchers at the museum,[br]and try to figure out who these students were,

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as well as what happened to them.[br]This was really an experimental project,

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the question wasn't just "What happened[br]to those children?" but would it actually work

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to put today's students[br]at work, trying to figure out who these

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students of [yesteryear] were.[br]Seven years into the project

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we still call this an experimental[br]citizen history project.

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We're still very much in beta, [br]we're still trying to figure out

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where all the lessons are.[br]But we do at least have a platform.

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Here I'll show you the URL for this[br]on the next slide.

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This is the Children of the Lodz Ghetto[br]Memorial Research Project,

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we have, at this point, about[br]8500 names available for research.

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We have them up, transcribed [br]in the database, and our student users

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and volunteer users go through, [br]select a name they want to research,

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and then go into our databases and see[br]if they could figure out who the person was,

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who most likely sign their name in the album.[br]Then figuring that out, figuring out who

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their most likely candidate is, going through[br]outlets even further, to see if they can

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figure out what happened to that person,[br]after the Ghetto. Were they able to

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survive the war, did they perish, where,[br]if so. So we have, as we seen in other

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crowdsourcing and citizen science projects[br]up here, we have a framework

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where we ask you to put into our research.[br]What was the name that you found?

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What was the date of birth if there was one?[br]What street addresses did you find,

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associated with this person?[br]And we also have this all important

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free textbox, where we ask, not only,[br]how was it that you're able to come

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across who this person was, but talk[br]to us about the process.

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What was it that made you realize [br]that this was the right person,

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as opposed to some other [inaudible name].[br]How did you know? What was it

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about the document, what can you[br]determine about the document?

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So having done again, the higher order[br]thinking of "What do we do, when

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we look at documents?" and [br]"What can we know from the document?"

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and "What do we simply not know?" We've seen from the document that a lot of students like to jump to conclusions

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that "Oh couldn't find anything else [br]beyond stage 1, this person clearly

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must have perished in [inaudible][br]there's nothing else to be found."

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Quite frankly the answer to that is,[br]well, no, the only thing that we know

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we can't find the document is that,[br]we don't know yet.

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The document just isn't there.[br]Doesn't tell us anything, just tell us

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there are big gaps. I want to talk[br]about these big gaps momentarily.

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They themselves are actually a big part[br]of citizen history museums.

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So, going back to our friendly [br]framework of Bloom's Taxonomy,

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keeping crowdsourcing down here [br]at the lower level, citizen history tries

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to go even higher. Getting people not only[br]to analyze a text but also to analyze

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their thinking, to reflect on what it is that [br]they are doing. And really recognize

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they are building skills. In addition,[br]they are still going through, helping us

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researchers try and answer these[br]big questions in history.

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So we put a lot of our trust in their hands,[br]put a lot of documents out there,

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and then ask them to reflect[br]on their process, and on the process

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of doing history in general.

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So, knowing that much, knowing [br]our framework with this project that

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we have, let's return to our title[br]and talk about some words.

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Because we present today only one[br]possible framework, one possible

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working nature of citizen history. [br]There are a lot of best practices

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that we could draw from this,[br]we all have to go back to the words

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that we use. For instance, what is[br]a citizen? Citizens, we usually talk

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about them as citizens of nation,[br]citizens of a group of people,

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who are members of a certain group.[br]And these citizen have two things.

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They have rights and they have responsibilities.[br]Well, we museums, we're really good at

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responsibilities. We're really good at saying[br]"Please, come in to our museum space,

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But here's all the things that you can't do:[br]don't eat, don't drink, don't smoke,

0:12:25.214,0:12:28.650
don't take pictures, don't poke[br]the priceless raw files."

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But, what is it that we can give our [br]visitors, our users, the people who

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come in our space, as far as[br]the rights go. We're not particular

0:12:36.653,0:12:40.984
good at saying "here's what you can do,[br]with our stuff." So if we actually

0:12:40.984,0:12:44.525
set out to create a citizen project,[br]what we need to be able to do,

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is to give people both responsibilities [br]as well as rights in that space

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that we create. Furthermore, [br]going on to history.

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History, in this case, we have to [br]take within the framework

0:12:55.749,0:13:01.989
of history in a museum.[br]Since history is really messy.

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There's a lot of different theories[br]on what history is, as far as I can tell.

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History itself really has[br]no big answers, no big truth.

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History, as it stands right now,[br]is just based on the documents.

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The interpretations that we had [br]at our disposal in this moment.

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So that they change tomorrow,[br]when a new archive is open,

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a new interpretation comes along,[br]something that makes us rethink

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everything that we've ever thought[br]to be true, about a certain part of the field.

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History takes interpretation, and history[br]is a constant asymptotic approach.

0:13:29.978,0:13:34.815
To the truth, without really any expectations[br]that it will ever achieve the truth itself.

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That one big knowledge about[br]what history is, or may be.

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Museums don't really like messy.[br]We like to be able to put things

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up on our walls, put the text up and[br]leave it there for a long time.

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Now whatever the interpretation is, [br]that we have to take from this original data,

0:13:52.130,0:13:55.742
from our understanding of history,[br]we pick one frame, and that's

0:13:55.742,0:13:58.679
what we put up. Hanging on the walls[br]and say, "Here you go visitors,

0:13:58.679,0:14:03.742
this is truth, this is what happened in this[br]historical period." And because we are really good at

0:14:03.742,0:14:07.043
broadcast model, we're not particularly[br]good at listening back.

0:14:07.043,0:14:10.602
And hearing all the questions people[br]might have, say look at this one interpretation,

0:14:10.958,0:14:18.476
that we have put forward, about history.[br]So when you're talking about the opposite

0:14:18.590,0:14:20.994
of the broadcast model, the idea that [br]history is messy, there are

0:14:20.994,0:14:24.482
no answers, we want to be able to have [br]citizens in our space. Really get down

0:14:24.482,0:14:28.831
to questions of trust. [br]Museums often say that we are

0:14:28.831,0:14:32.230
instruments of public trust. The public[br]places a lot of their trust in us,

0:14:32.342,0:14:36.840
to be able to say, this is fact, this is truth.[br]You're coming to my museum,

0:14:36.840,0:14:40.455
to learn something, and you'd expect[br]that the knowledge being just

0:14:40.542,0:14:43.593
passed down to you, given to you[br]and you'll osmose it, from looking

0:14:43.593,0:14:47.682
at our wall text, and seeing our artifacts.[br]And that what you'll know.

0:14:47.682,0:14:51.702
But of course, we now know that[br]history is messier than that.

0:14:51.702,0:14:54.574
And simply heading down one [br]interpretation, one framework,

0:14:54.574,0:14:58.569
is not sufficient. It's just one way[br]of looking at things.

0:14:58.569,0:15:01.848
But if museums were actually [br]going to open up all these interpretations

0:15:01.848,0:15:04.604
of history, all these different frameworks[br]and ways of going about it,

0:15:04.604,0:15:08.813
would that then, hurt their ability[br]to be instruments of public trust?

0:15:08.813,0:15:12.929
By trusting the public, it then help[br]correct our image as organizations

0:15:12.929,0:15:18.984
that can be trusted in society.[br]We kind of have this Circle of Trust,

0:15:18.984,0:15:22.089
that we keep on down low,[br]and inside our own frameworks,

0:15:22.089,0:15:26.280
among our own staff in museums.[br]And in the Circle of Trust we have

0:15:26.280,0:15:29.282
often the really scary things that[br]we don't really want to talk about.

0:15:29.282,0:15:32.874
Like the fact that we don't know [br]everything. We like to pretend that we do,

0:15:32.874,0:15:36.390
but we really don't. And there's a lot[br]of information or questions in our

0:15:36.390,0:15:39.311
collections where there's answers[br]might be, we just, maybe, haven't

0:15:39.311,0:15:41.933
gone through our collections[br]as deeply as we might like,

0:15:41.933,0:15:45.242
because there's a lot of them. There's [br]a lot of stuff out there, there's

0:15:45.242,0:15:48.262
a lot of data. It takes a long time to[br]get through it. There might be answers

0:15:48.262,0:15:51.248
out there that will completely change[br]the way we present this information.

0:15:51.393,0:15:53.580
<i>Whispers</i> [inaudible]

0:15:53.580,0:15:56.668
And the fact of the matter is,[br]that as we answer these questions

0:15:56.668,0:16:00.935
we're not going to find any big truth,[br]any big answers, again, this constant

0:16:00.935,0:16:04.378
asymptotic approach to what the truth[br]might be, we're just going to find

0:16:04.378,0:16:08.319
more questions. We're just going to have[br]an even further path ahead of us.

0:16:08.319,0:16:11.532
But we really don't like to talk about that,[br]so you should know it well enough.

0:16:11.532,0:16:15.254
We place ours -- it's kind of hard to [br]see here,-- but there's a big red brick wall

0:16:15.254,0:16:18.647
around this circle of trust, because [br]we don't like to talk about it, or to share

0:16:18.647,0:16:23.497
it with the public. But what if we do?[br]What if we actually accept that there are

0:16:23.612,0:16:26.885
people out there, who wanted to know[br]that we have questions. Who want

0:16:26.885,0:16:31.714
to know what's still out there to be seen[br]and to be discovered, who realize that

0:16:31.714,0:16:35.495
museums maybe don't really know everything.[br]And they're really curious about what's

0:16:35.495,0:16:40.083
sitting inside that Circle of Trust.[br]What haven't we explored yet.

0:16:40.083,0:16:43.776
So, what if the museum said,[br]"well yeah, there's a lot of really messy

0:16:43.776,0:16:48.250
stuff in there, things that we haven't [br]explore, a lot of questions, that we still

0:16:48.250,0:16:52.720
have to go through? And then we [br]actually take the curiosity of our visitors

0:16:52.720,0:16:56.142
into play, they actually say "Well yeah,[br]we've got questions too.

0:16:56.142,0:17:00.280
And we've been trying to ask them, [br]you just haven't been listening to us."

0:17:00.280,0:17:03.091
Well we have to warn them first,[br]it's kind of messy in there, it's really

0:17:03.091,0:17:09.926
kind of scary. And as we help them to enter[br]the Circle of Trust where we keep

0:17:09.926,0:17:12.835
all of our questions and our data,[br]and our unknown unknowns,

0:17:12.835,0:17:16.469
those questions that lead to further questions.[br]There's places where we have no data,

0:17:16.469,0:17:19.689
those things that we're really curious[br]about, and we wish that this one more archive

0:17:19.689,0:17:24.440
would open up, that we'd be able to get to their stuff.[br]That might have some of those answers.

0:17:24.440,0:17:27.795
There's places where there are gaps[br]in the record.

0:17:28.437,0:17:31.324
We wouldn't just sign our visitors[br]into there, completely unequipped.

0:17:31.324,0:17:35.370
We'd give them a tool kit,[br]we'd give them some binoculars,

0:17:35.370,0:17:38.031
so they'd be able to look closer at things.[br]We'd give them a wrench,

0:17:38.031,0:17:40.155
that they can actually go through[br]and tweak the data, see what

0:17:40.155,0:17:42.773
they are playing with, messing around,[br]in the stuff that we have,

0:17:42.773,0:17:46.820
as well as a hardhat, because, well,[br]who knows what will fall out

0:17:46.820,0:17:50.091
when we actually shake the history[br]and what's in there.

0:17:50.091,0:17:55.038
So this toolkit are the things that allow[br]citizens, our visitors, our volunteers, our users,

0:17:55.038,0:17:59.020
to enter this space, this Circle of Trust,[br]the things that we're really curious about.

0:17:59.020,0:18:02.997
To enter into our questions and into[br]our data. Working in partnership with us.

0:18:02.997,0:18:04.727
To answer these questions.

0:18:04.988,0:18:08.962
Some of these when we look at citizen[br]history, are the questions historians have

0:18:08.962,0:18:13.327
for themselves. The ways that historians[br]do history, history as a process.

0:18:13.327,0:18:16.533
So how does historians look at a source?[br]What's available to us in the source

0:18:16.533,0:18:19.010
and what's the context for it.[br]What questions are we trying

0:18:19.010,0:18:23.361
to answer by looking at the source.[br]What's new? What might we be unlocking

0:18:23.361,0:18:26.320
with this source, what are we looking at[br]that might not have been considered before?

0:18:26.320,0:18:29.283
What's in your interpretation, a new [br]piece of data, it's pointing us

0:18:29.283,0:18:34.411
in a new place. In the case of the[br]Children of the Lodz Ghetto project,

0:18:34.411,0:18:37.515
we've been able to identify a couple of[br]these pointers. Then our citizens

0:18:37.515,0:18:41.076
as they go through try to identify these[br]children, have an easier time in

0:18:41.076,0:18:45.629
going through our stuff, because we know that [br]naming conventions in 1920s and 1930s

0:18:45.629,0:18:49.789
were a little different than you might expect[br]here in the States, because your

0:18:49.789,0:18:52.886
average student would have a Polish name,[br]and an Yiddish name, and probably

0:18:52.886,0:18:55.730
an nickname, maybe even a middle[br]name. All of which could be used in

0:18:55.730,0:18:58.476
any number of documents. So then[br]you'll be able to accept there are

0:18:58.476,0:19:02.030
a lot of names for the same person, [br]helps people to be able to read sources

0:19:02.030,0:19:04.739
and jump to fewer conclusions.[br]Be able to be more open,

0:19:04.739,0:19:07.834
to different interpretations and[br]different names that maybe out there.

0:19:07.834,0:19:11.373
In addition, we're working with a mostly[br]American audience. So being able to tell

0:19:11.373,0:19:15.459
our users that in these documents[br]you'll going to see the day first,

0:19:15.459,0:19:19.522
and then the month, helps them better[br]to unlock what it is they're seeing.

0:19:19.522,0:19:23.845
And instead of putting their American lens[br]onto it, have a better understanding

0:19:23.845,0:19:29.109
of what it is they are actually seeing.[br]So, thus hardhatted, and wrenched,

0:19:29.109,0:19:33.024
and binoculared, we send our users[br]into the Circle of Trust, and while

0:19:33.024,0:19:35.525
we're at it we might as well jump into[br]that Circle of Trust.

0:19:35.525,0:19:39.469
We might as well bring the museum[br]into that Circle of Trust, accept that

0:19:39.469,0:19:41.157
we have questions and more data[br]and unknown unknowns.

0:19:41.157,0:19:45.251
And we're all in this together.[br]And a funny thing happens.

0:19:45.251,0:19:48.159
Because rather than being our usual[br]broadcaster model museums

0:19:48.159,0:19:52.855
just going out and say, "Here's truth,[br]take it in." We actually have conversation.

0:19:52.855,0:19:55.964
We have users talking to the museum[br]and the museum talking back.

0:19:55.964,0:19:58.615
We have users talking to one another,[br]helping each other to grow through

0:19:58.615,0:20:02.657
their research, and as these questions[br]and conversations iterate back and forth,

0:20:02.657,0:20:05.862
back and forth, we actually have [br]more growth than we would've had

0:20:05.862,0:20:09.401
when we're just a museum talking[br]to itself. Or just users speaking to one another.

0:20:09.401,0:20:12.496
Because the museum still have[br]a really important role to play.

0:20:12.496,0:20:15.566
We are the scaffolders. In addition[br]to giving people our questions,

0:20:15.647,0:20:19.167
our honest research, our data, [br]we're the ones who can help our users

0:20:19.167,0:20:24.550
to go from just coming in out of curiosity[br]to actually going out with a skill set.

0:20:24.550,0:20:29.738
Things they can use and apply in their[br]own lives beyond just the Circle of Trust.

0:20:29.738,0:20:32.138
So what do we get out of this?[br]When we open up our users

0:20:32.138,0:20:37.066
and the museum itself to accepting[br]we have questions, data, and unknown unknowns,

0:20:37.066,0:20:40.397
the museum gets connections. Connections[br]among their [inaudible], again,

0:20:40.397,0:20:44.471
kind of a crowdsourcing model of lots of people[br]looking at our stuff, at the same time,

0:20:44.471,0:20:48.464
drawing, from the wisdom of the crowd,[br]some of these answers.

0:20:48.464,0:20:51.096
We do get some of these answers to[br]some of these questions that we have

0:20:51.096,0:20:54.760
and we get more questions, of course.[br]Everytime we try to answer a question

0:20:54.760,0:20:57.397
we just end up with more questions [br]and more directions that we could

0:20:57.397,0:20:59.601
take our research in.[br]And perhaps these are questions

0:20:59.601,0:21:03.469
we haven't considered before. Because[br]we've got people coming in with fresh eyes.

0:21:03.570,0:21:06.948
Looking at our stuff in ways we might not [br]have considered before. And thus

0:21:06.948,0:21:10.450
where we would already have more questions,[br]we have more and more questions.

0:21:10.450,0:21:15.847
It's great! So what do our users get out of it?[br]Now that the museum's gotten all this

0:21:15.847,0:21:20.017
good stuff from the people who work [br]in their data. Well, the user discover.

0:21:20.017,0:21:23.345
What we know, truth about history.[br]That there are no simple answers, that

0:21:23.345,0:21:27.793
history is messy. In a lot of cases they[br]also get a very personal connection

0:21:27.793,0:21:30.933
to the history. We've discovered that[br]from our users at least.

0:21:30.933,0:21:34.361
We have students working on research[br]about students, they get very personally

0:21:34.361,0:21:38.899
invested in looking at these individuals,[br]their lives, their families, and what happened

0:21:38.899,0:21:43.109
to them. So having a personal connection[br]to this one aspect of history often helps them

0:21:43.109,0:21:46.010
being a greater personal connection[br]to the rest of history as well.

0:21:46.010,0:21:49.995
And frankly, we don't ask them[br]to give back their hardhats, their wrenches,

0:21:49.995,0:21:53.591
their binoculars when they leave.[br]We let them keep it.

0:21:53.591,0:21:56.267
So they take all of these great skills[br]they have developed, within

0:21:56.267,0:22:01.317
the Circle of Trust, within the museum's[br]setting, and take them out into the world.

0:22:01.317,0:22:06.147
Because really what's at stake here[br]isn't just citizens being citizens of our sphere

0:22:06.147,0:22:08.841
having rights and responsibilities[br]where we are, but it's about their

0:22:08.841,0:22:12.781
citizenship. One of the great things about[br]the study of history, the process

0:22:12.781,0:22:15.680
that we go through as we look at [br]history, is that a lot of the skills

0:22:15.680,0:22:20.362
that we use looking at a document,[br]making an argument, talking to one another,

0:22:20.362,0:22:24.640
are also skills for the public sphere.[br]And on the internet today, it's kind of

0:22:24.640,0:22:30.134
a murky monkey place, where there's [br]a lot of debate and dialogue going on,

0:22:30.134,0:22:34.474
without a lot of people talking to [br]or listening to one another.

0:22:34.474,0:22:37.542
So what if we're actually be able to[br]go into this digital area where our

0:22:37.542,0:22:41.925
citizen history lives, dig people out, you know,[br]have this skill set of being able to

0:22:41.925,0:22:46.207
look critically at a source, think critically[br]about what they're hearing, and being able

0:22:46.207,0:22:50.095
to form a cogent argument,[br]having send them back out to the murk

0:22:50.095,0:22:53.858
of the internet, and see what happens.[br]See if we could actually improve

0:22:53.858,0:22:58.277
civil discourse, by having this new [br]generation not of trained historians

0:22:58.277,0:23:03.647
but of people trying to think historically.[br]Take their skill set back out into the world.

0:23:03.647,0:23:08.169
So let's go back to our words. [br]Citizen history and radical trust in museums.

0:23:08.169,0:23:11.867
What does this mean for best practices[br]for citizen history? Well, museums,

0:23:11.867,0:23:16.533
we have to remember that we're more[br]than just our four walls. That we are also

0:23:16.533,0:23:19.346
the additional space for the people[br]who come in to our walls.

0:23:19.346,0:23:22.600
They need to be able to think beyond[br]just what we want to present.

0:23:22.600,0:23:26.111
In this very closed box. They are[br]to think about the larger conversations

0:23:26.111,0:23:31.903
going on around us, in the world at large.[br]History is living, breathing, growing --

0:23:31.935,0:23:34.565
something that is constantly evolves.[br]In an early version of this talk

0:23:34.644,0:23:38.423
I didn't have history made history,[br]history is shared. History is noise,

0:23:38.423,0:23:42.083
and that was more active than just [br]the static noun, of history.

0:23:42.083,0:23:46.467
Because history should never be static.[br]So the knowledge that history is constantly

0:23:46.467,0:23:50.696
growing and evolving and changing,[br]and what is true for history today

0:23:50.696,0:23:53.932
might not be true tomorrow.[br]Also means that when we have our projects

0:23:53.932,0:23:56.841
going on we need to be able to take[br]whatever it is that we're learning,

0:23:56.841,0:23:59.810
and reiterated back into the project.[br]To be able to have the assumptions

0:23:59.810,0:24:03.204
that we make for our citizen users [br]grow and change, something learn

0:24:03.204,0:24:05.790
more and more from.

0:24:05.790,0:24:09.394
Citizens have rights and responsibilities[br]in your online space, you've gotta be able to

0:24:09.394,0:24:13.426
let them in. Because it's not just enough[br]to say "Come in and look at our stuff

0:24:13.426,0:24:16.409
precisely the way that we want you to."[br]We have to be able to give them the right

0:24:16.605,0:24:20.239
to go into our data, muff around and see[br]what they are curious about within that

0:24:20.239,0:24:25.604
framework, and send us their questions [br]for whatever it is that they've uncovered.

0:24:25.604,0:24:28.092
Trust is hugely public, as we just talked[br]about, it's really the Circle of Trust,

0:24:28.092,0:24:32.658
the idea of the public trust, and the fact[br]that opening our trust to the public

0:24:32.658,0:24:35.740
doesn't break down our trust.[br]It's as if it's becoming a partnership,

0:24:35.740,0:24:38.420
the way that we can all grow from working [br]together. So we have to be able to

0:24:38.420,0:24:44.000
welcome our community into our questions,[br]and be able to, willing, to take our authority

0:24:44.000,0:24:47.338
out just enough to be able to say,[br]"Alright, what answers do you have?

0:24:47.338,0:24:51.951
What questions do you have for us,[br]what can you do to bring in to our sphere,

0:24:51.951,0:24:58.144
to help us all grow together."[br]And frankly the all important word, and.

0:24:59.225,0:25:05.097
It's really bridging here, not just citizen history,[br]and radical trust of museums, or just

0:25:05.177,0:25:09.337
citizens, and museums. It's really about [br]partnership and dialogue.

0:25:09.337,0:25:13.306
Whenever we look at this, it's not just about[br]two things working across purposes,

0:25:13.306,0:25:16.740
it's people who think they'll be working[br]together. In a partnership.

0:25:16.740,0:25:20.332
So not only it's this about our citizens,[br]it's also about what the museum must do

0:25:20.332,0:25:23.380
within the space, so we have to be able to[br]scaffold the skills we want to build,

0:25:23.380,0:25:26.904
we have to be able to engage our users.[br]This community takes a lot of caring

0:25:26.904,0:25:30.257
and feeding, a lot of time. To be able to[br]make sure people are getting the skills,

0:25:30.257,0:25:34.021
building the skills, learning the things[br]that we'll hope they'd take away from this.

0:25:34.021,0:25:38.101
And be able to say "We may not have the[br]historical authority in this space,

0:25:38.101,0:25:41.939
we have the understanding. How you go [br]about, thinking historically, let's help you

0:25:41.939,0:25:48.334
grow, let's all move along this continuum [br]together. So, finally, instead of best practices

0:25:48.334,0:25:53.388
I think about from these different ideas about[br]citizens, history, and museums, you need to

0:25:53.388,0:25:56.318
be able to start with a question that[br]begs answers. Something that is actually

0:25:56.318,0:25:59.811
a legit question in history. It's not enough[br]just to give people busy work

0:25:59.811,0:26:03.948
and say "Go." This is gotta be something[br]that museums are actually curious about.

0:26:03.948,0:26:06.689
Furthermore, we'll have to be able to[br]welcome these fresh eyes into our stuff.

0:26:06.907,0:26:10.809
We don't need everyone to be trained [br]historians right off the bat, but that

0:26:10.809,0:26:14.978
there's actually value in having people[br]not necessarily worked with this data,

0:26:14.978,0:26:18.701
with this period of history, or with these[br]historical skills before, coming in

0:26:18.701,0:26:21.975
and looking at our stuff. We need [br]to be able to iterate and dialogue.

0:26:21.975,0:26:25.240
Again, keeping in mind that this is[br]never static, this should never stay

0:26:25.240,0:26:28.838
in one place for very long, that our [br]projects need to constantly be

0:26:28.838,0:26:31.772
evaluated and reevaluated, taking[br]knowledge that we've learned,

0:26:31.772,0:26:35.118
putting it back into the project,[br]and remembering it's always about

0:26:35.118,0:26:39.183
the dialogue between the museum[br]and it's users. Between users and users.

0:26:39.183,0:26:42.627
The conversation that goes on in that space[br]is just as important what we find out

0:26:42.627,0:26:46.781
from it. We need to make sure that[br]there is that space, for debate and discussion.

0:26:46.781,0:26:50.041
We've got some place for these people to go,[br]to be able to talk comfortably

0:26:50.041,0:26:53.373
to one another. We have to be able to[br]create opportunities for growth,

0:26:53.679,0:26:56.219
as people find that they are getting [br]more and more into these skills,

0:26:56.219,0:26:58.563
learning more and more about[br]what they are doing. We need to

0:26:58.563,0:27:01.167
make sure that there's some place [br]for them to go, beyond just the basic

0:27:01.167,0:27:05.513
level of citizen history. In the Lodz Project,[br]for instance, we have a level called

0:27:05.513,0:27:09.711
expert reviewer, when users have gotten[br]really good at doing the basic research

0:27:09.727,0:27:13.837
that we ask them to do, we can then elevate[br]them to the expert reviewer, and then

0:27:13.837,0:27:16.742
as a result, they are then asked[br]to go through and review the research

0:27:16.742,0:27:21.217
that their colleagues, their peers have done.[br]We elevate peers to a higher level,

0:27:21.217,0:27:24.732
they then go talk to their peers[br]as greater authority figures,

0:27:24.732,0:27:27.416
thus giving them a little bit more[br]empowerment and also give them

0:27:27.416,0:27:32.814
their peers an opportunity to realize[br]that there's opportunity for growth.

0:27:32.814,0:27:35.378
(Student) And what's after that?[br](Elissa) What's after that?

0:27:35.378,0:27:39.716
That's a great question. Once we've worked[br]out the expert reviewer a little bit more,

0:27:39.716,0:27:43.544
I'm hoping we'll find out.[br]That's part of our next iteration

0:27:43.544,0:27:47.409
as we learn more. And finally this [br]community need a lot of caring

0:27:47.409,0:27:49.630
and feeding. You gotta make sure [br]you've got a community manager

0:27:49.630,0:27:51.995
that is really, willing to be boots[br]on the ground, constantly working

0:27:51.995,0:27:57.456
with your people, with your users,[br]with your citizens. And being there

0:27:57.456,0:28:01.128
to answer their questions, to help them[br]get through the murk of the unknown

0:28:01.128,0:28:04.896
unknowns, you know, there's still[br]value in there. Citizen history has

0:28:04.896,0:28:09.001
truly been one of the great lapse [br]of my professional life, and the more

0:28:09.001,0:28:13.330
that I talk to users, learn from users,[br]understanding this that we do,

0:28:13.330,0:28:17.304
the more I like our users, the more that [br]I love having them in our space,

0:28:17.304,0:28:22.472
to be able to learn from them.[br]And because you today are my citizens here,

0:28:22.472,0:28:25.283
love to hear if you have any questions?

0:28:25.283,0:28:27.927
<i>Clapping</i>

0:28:30.410,0:28:35.173
(Host) Sure I got lots. Thank you for giving us[br]an idea of what you do, and [inaudible]

0:28:35.173,0:28:40.107
you are at it for seven years. You talked about[br]museums as if there is this, sort of,

0:28:40.107,0:28:44.346
global museum - of course there are different museums -[br]but even within the Holocaust museum,

0:28:44.346,0:28:49.659
could you talk about how, what kind of[br]responses, support, and sponsorship

0:28:49.659,0:28:59.853
you've gotten from curators, staff, directors,[br]boards of trustees, sponsors, members, donors?

0:28:59.853,0:29:02.889
(Elissa) Well this is little bit of where that[br]radical part comes in, those words in the title

0:29:02.889,0:29:07.518
that we didn't talk about. I kinda dispense[br]the word radical pretty early on

0:29:07.518,0:29:11.355
in the preparation process because this is[br]really what museums are all about.

0:29:11.355,0:29:15.077
(Audience Member) It's hardly radical anymore.[br](Elissa) Right, but within the framework

0:29:15.077,0:29:19.140
of the Holocaust museum it kind of is.[br]We're still very much nervous about

0:29:19.140,0:29:22.824
having anybody who isn't us working[br]on our data, one of the reason why it's been

0:29:22.824,0:29:26.158
in beta for seven years, because we're[br]worried about saying "The museum

0:29:26.158,0:29:29.747
is doing this project where we're putting[br]our data our there, come be part of us,

0:29:29.747,0:29:34.384
and look at whatever you want."[br]Because some elements in the museum

0:29:34.384,0:29:37.776
are worried that they are going to ask[br]for more data to be out there,

0:29:37.776,0:29:42.610
Things that we aren't necessarily ready[br]to have, out there there aren't very -- yea.

0:29:42.610,0:29:46.792
We often got a lot of support from[br]the educational community.

0:29:46.792,0:29:52.306
Because the project again has been[br]on the DL [down low] again, for seven years.

0:29:52.306,0:29:55.138
Then when do the people find out[br]about it, it's been a lot of fun

0:29:55.138,0:29:58.405
in the last two and half years after[br]we've mentioned it, the more people seemed

0:29:58.405,0:30:02.770
to like it and really appreciate the fact that[br]we give people empowerment within our space.

0:30:02.770,0:30:08.307
We see a lot of opportunities for it, within[br]educational, formal educational setting.

0:30:08.307,0:30:15.209
As far as donors go we haven't really pushed[br]to them that much. And now that I sit in

0:30:15.209,0:30:18.135
the marketing department, there's definitely[br]more opportunities for us to do that.

0:30:18.459,0:30:22.067
About a year ago we went through[br]and completely revamped the site,

0:30:22.067,0:30:25.314
the screenshots that I showed earlier[br]are from the new version.

0:30:25.314,0:30:27.793
And the plan was always going to be[br]that once we got it to that point,

0:30:27.793,0:30:32.149
we're going to release it out of beta,[br]and that it would go live, marketing

0:30:32.149,0:30:34.960
would do this big push around it[br]and we will get lots and lots of users,

0:30:34.960,0:30:38.074
that would be wonderful, and we[br]just never got there.

0:30:38.074,0:30:41.333
Part of the reasons is an accident [br]of timing. This is our 20th anniversary year

0:30:41.420,0:30:46.395
and probably 90% of my time has been[br]spent on working on the 20th, working

0:30:46.395,0:30:50.832
our outreach around that.[br]My other kind of [inaudible] been

0:30:50.832,0:30:55.625
for that. So maybe if we done this[br]the year before, we'd actually be able to

0:30:55.625,0:30:57.891
run it through the marketing cycle [br]and see what happened.

0:30:57.891,0:31:00.730
(Audience Member) Here's some few more numbers --[br](Elissa) Sure

0:31:00.730,0:31:04.716
(Audience Member) How many people have contributed[br]to that Lodz project?

0:31:04.716,0:31:08.287
(Elissa) So we have about 1500 people[br]working on the project, in some capacity

0:31:08.287,0:31:10.538
or another.[br](Audience Member) Is that number increasing or decreasing?

0:31:10.538,0:31:13.720
(Elissa) That number is increasing.[br]We've been doing a lot of work, again,

0:31:13.720,0:31:17.374
with classes. We tell teachers about the project,[br]they work with their students.

0:31:17.374,0:31:22.405
I do a webinar showing them how to use[br]the project, and the teacher does the support.

0:31:22.405,0:31:26.377
in the classroom then I give support at the[br]back end as they turn research in.

0:31:26.377,0:31:30.466
So that number is going to increase. Again,[br]next week when I got another forty students

0:31:30.466,0:31:35.508
from GW on this site. We do have the occasional[br]user who comes across it and then

0:31:35.508,0:31:40.294
goes hogwild on it. That, as people find this[br]on their own, they would usually spend a lot more

0:31:40.294,0:31:42.877
time on it.[br](Audience Member) And how many followers do you have

0:31:42.877,0:31:46.195
on your Twitter feed?[br](Elissa) You mean personally or the museum?

0:31:46.195,0:31:50.520
(Audience Member) Well @museums365 is that it?[br](Elissa) That's - I forgot - about 1400.

0:31:50.520,0:31:54.661
The museum itself has 150,700 something.[br](Audience Member) So you do have an audience

0:31:54.752,0:32:00.062
that you can reach by that twitter feed.[br]So you use it to advertise events,

0:32:00.062,0:32:04.848
do you promote these citizen history projects?[br](Elissa) We do, and particularly now, the way

0:32:04.848,0:32:09.212
that our social media team is set up,[br]I came over last October, and then

0:32:09.281,0:32:12.856
by a month behind me, we have analyst [br]person come over from collections.

0:32:12.856,0:32:17.151
I've been in education for -- and so the two of us[br]I ran the Lodz Ghetto project,

0:32:17.151,0:32:20.843
he ran Remember Me, which is[br]a crowdsourcing project in the vein

0:32:20.843,0:32:23.943
of the American History Project[br]where we had people sharing their

0:32:23.943,0:32:29.912
personal knowledge, where the memories[br]of, children in displaced children's camps.

0:32:29.912,0:32:34.528
We have photographs that we show, these children,[br]and ask "Does anybody remember this person?

0:32:34.528,0:32:38.611
Do you know who this person is?"[br]And people do and they share their story.

0:32:38.611,0:32:42.453
It's really been remarkable to see how successful[br]that's been. So we have two people working

0:32:42.453,0:32:46.889
within this crowdsourcing field, now sitting in [br]the social media. And I'm very excited to see

0:32:46.889,0:32:53.951
what we can actually do with that, [br]once we get out of the 20th muck.

0:32:53.951,0:32:58.436
(Audience Member) I have many more questions but I should[br]let others, pursue.

0:32:58.436,0:33:05.869
(Fraistat) So, um, looking at the Children[br]of the Lodz Ghetto site, and right at the top

0:33:05.869,0:33:13.962
there's project status, so, twenty students[br]known to have survived, so is this what's been known

0:33:13.962,0:33:21.277
or verified through people working on this site?[br](Elissa) That's right, yeah.

0:33:21.370,0:33:25.537
This is one of the additions that we put in[br]with the new iteration of the site.

0:33:25.537,0:33:32.494
We had done a bit evaluation with some [br]of our users, and a little bit work from

0:33:32.642,0:33:36.490
the Center for New Media and History, and they [br]gave us some of their feedback.

0:33:36.490,0:33:40.300
Among that was, people want to see the scope[br]of what they are doing. How far along

0:33:40.300,0:33:44.109
we're actually getting with this project.[br](Fraistat) I think that's really important,

0:33:44.109,0:33:50.511
even including the number of [br]citizen historians who have contributed

0:33:50.511,0:33:57.943
to the project. I think that's a good thing [br]to show too. They do this at NYPL, show

0:33:57.943,0:34:04.340
the number of people, number of records[br]that have been curated or transcribed.

0:34:04.340,0:34:07.482
(Elissa) It's one of the things that they mentioned[br]in that same article about galaxy zoo,

0:34:07.482,0:34:11.016
was that, here at the three in the morning[br]with my galaxies, you know, there are

0:34:11.016,0:34:13.928
a couple thousand other people also[br]up at three in the morning with their galaxies.

0:34:13.928,0:34:17.518
So when their best [ribow] in the end,[br]where we're so often on our own,

0:34:17.518,0:34:21.499
we're actually very much with other people[br]at the same time.

0:34:27.309,0:34:33.302
I am an educator, I love questions, [br]and I love wait time, so I'm willing to wait as long as it takes.

0:34:36.812,0:34:40.718
(Audience) Yeah I didn't mention that I went[br]to the museum last week, and now that you're saying

0:34:41.002,0:34:47.689
saying about this, I don't remember that [br]there was anything, lets say, in the area

0:34:47.689,0:34:54.491
that talks about it. And I thought that, you know,[br]that might be a good thing,

0:34:54.491,0:34:59.557
to have something, where they're from[br]or something, where they go to talk about

0:34:59.557,0:35:05.349
this project, because, you know, [br]looking around there are maybe,

0:35:05.349,0:35:14.104
I think, you know, elderly people who have[br]person of interest as they go to that museum.

0:35:14.104,0:35:21.408
That might open up more --[br](Host) So it's like how does

0:35:21.408,0:35:26.657
the brick and mortar interact more tightly[br]with the virtual here.

0:35:26.657,0:35:29.739
(Elissa) And what we've been more willing[br]to do in the brick-and-mortar space is then to say

0:35:29.739,0:35:34.801
connect with us online. We've also been[br]missing a lot of our community museums

0:35:34.872,0:35:39.031
around the the symposium near some of our mall.[br]Where we'd get to the end of the exhibition

0:35:39.031,0:35:44.355
and say "What did you think? Tell us on twitter at[br]Am-History Museum." So we are more willing

0:35:44.355,0:35:50.069
to let people tell us, share their thoughts[br]in the social space. So putting things

0:35:50.069,0:35:53.906
in our Facebook wall, talking to them[br]on Twitter, putting videos on Youtube,

0:35:53.906,0:35:58.765
pinning stuff on Pinterest boards.[br]But as far as interaction with our

0:35:58.765,0:36:04.204
digital space, the things that are connected to us[br]in visual and outside of social,

0:36:04.204,0:36:08.537
we definitely have less of a push, [br]to those into the museum itself.

0:36:08.537,0:36:11.385
There is a space on the second floor[br]of the museum, where our third

0:36:11.385,0:36:14.806
crowdsourcing project, we have three [br]going on right now, to a very much end.

0:36:14.806,0:36:18.068
The World Memory Project,[br]we're in partnership with Ancestry.com

0:36:18.068,0:36:22.260
we have a bunch of names list, that we're[br]trying to get transcribed, and we open

0:36:22.260,0:36:26.999
those up to the Ancestry community to help[br]us key in some of those names and dates

0:36:26.999,0:36:32.474
and things from these giant databases.[br]And there are two stations that are set up

0:36:32.474,0:36:36.258
there. Where you are getting to help [br]key in -- but again we don't talk about

0:36:36.258,0:36:41.235
it very much. And I often do wonder[br]if there is some kind of force separation

0:36:41.235,0:36:44.406
between our brick-and-mortar self,[br]and our digital space self.

0:36:44.406,0:36:47.721
Because the brick and mortar, we can [br]control, pretty much. We can control

0:36:47.721,0:36:52.962
what conversations going in that space,[br]we have information comes down from

0:36:52.962,0:36:57.287
the museum at large. And the digital space[br]was a little bit scarier. Right? We're not

0:36:57.287,0:37:00.551
be able to control the conversations there[br]as much. We are worried that people

0:37:00.551,0:37:04.903
would just take our stuff and run away with it.[br]And if we are not ready for that many people

0:37:04.903,0:37:10.988
to look at our data and actually poke our stuff,[br]poke our precious raw files, then having

0:37:10.988,0:37:16.837
information leading to those things in[br]the brick and mortar space can be

0:37:16.921,0:37:20.670
a little bit scary sometimes.[br](Host) And it's like on some of your tickets

0:37:20.670,0:37:23.597
it could say "Work with us online."[br](Elissa) Totally.

0:37:23.597,0:37:27.551
I would love that.[br](Host) So the museum's greatest fear

0:37:27.551,0:37:32.138
might be something like success where[br]people demanded more and more.

0:37:32.138,0:37:39.232
What's your biggest fear about citizen[br]historian projects in the Holocaust museum?

0:37:39.232,0:37:45.613
(Elissa) I think my fear is I'm going to fail.[br]And I believe in failing big and failing best.

0:37:46.485,0:37:49.981
But I am worried that when we build it[br]nobody will come, where we build it,

0:37:49.981,0:37:54.507
people come, and then we can't share[br]that with our internal community.

0:37:54.507,0:37:57.480
We say "Look at all these great success [br]we had." And they say "So what.

0:37:57.480,0:37:59.881
What's the point?" That discrete[br]experiment we were running

0:37:59.881,0:38:03.701
where we have the trust of our users,[br]we have a wonderful community

0:38:03.701,0:38:07.688
that well iterates and talks to each other[br]and learn skills, and goes out into the world

0:38:07.688,0:38:13.837
that nobody on our side, or wasn't enough.[br]And that if this experiment fails,

0:38:13.837,0:38:16.920
then how are we every going to[br]convince them again?

0:38:16.920,0:38:23.389
(Host) It makes me think of -- there's[br]all this talk about blended online education,

0:38:23.389,0:38:31.432
and moves and the counter-discourse [br]from people in pedagogy is about, well,

0:38:31.432,0:38:38.818
we need learning outcomes that[br]would be assessed. How do you measure

0:38:38.818,0:38:42.776
the education that you are giving?[br]But it seems to me that's the other

0:38:42.776,0:38:50.886
part of the Circle that we don't have[br]closed ear yet. It's -- how do we document

0:38:50.886,0:38:56.697
that we have taught citizens [br]how to do history in a way that relives

0:38:56.697,0:39:01.004
our own sense of what it means[br]to do history. When we show how

0:39:01.004,0:39:04.203
many people -- we could show[br]how many people might have transcribed

0:39:04.203,0:39:08.852
something, how do we document[br]what they learned, and, argue me

0:39:08.852,0:39:13.165
the counter-argument to people[br]who say "So what? So you've got some people

0:39:13.165,0:39:16.739
who type some stuff in, big deal."[br](Elissa) It's really hard, it's where I think

0:39:16.739,0:39:19.833
having the notes filled so prominent [br]really comes in. That we've given

0:39:19.833,0:39:23.747
people the space, we ask them[br]to share with us what their reflections are.

0:39:23.747,0:39:26.607
And anecdotally I can tell you that[br]people, let's say, spend more and more time

0:39:26.607,0:39:29.840
on the project get better and better[br]at filling their skill, and they'd able to

0:39:29.840,0:39:33.268
reflect more critically what is it[br]that they are thinking. But in terms

0:39:33.268,0:39:38.167
of being able to measure, to give it[br]an A, I don't know if we can.

0:39:38.167,0:39:39.907
I don't have to figure that out yet.[br]We also have a lot of supporting

0:39:39.907,0:39:43.754
teachers, who haven't quite grasp[br]the idea either, I have one teacher

0:39:43.754,0:39:47.707
who wanted to use the project such[br]that the students would go on

0:39:47.707,0:39:51.010
and research one student, and they[br]would present the powerpoint

0:39:51.010,0:39:54.772
of that student's life, in class.[br]Then I had to tell him that

0:39:54.772,0:39:58.767
you can't do that, because you are[br]going to have kids who would go and

0:39:58.767,0:40:02.718
look for a student, and find nothing there.[br]That's the nature of the project,

0:40:02.718,0:40:07.079
that's the nature of doing research.[br]We don't know what we don't have.

0:40:07.079,0:40:09.446
And in finding that out, that's part of[br]the goal for us is to figure out

0:40:09.446,0:40:12.146
we don't have what those gaps are.[br]And so trying to put up a hearing

0:40:12.146,0:40:17.794
narrative on it, you can't always do that.[br]The expectations just aren't the same.

0:40:17.794,0:40:23.274
(Host) Now thinking about you using[br]the Bloom's model, you were saying that

0:40:23.274,0:40:27.592
as we think through what we want[br]to give people who interact with us,

0:40:27.592,0:40:32.502
we want to climb up the scale.[br]So, a kind of outcomes assessment

0:40:32.502,0:40:36.919
would be to somehow to map back[br]to that. And say, "We've brought people

0:40:36.919,0:40:42.494
from here to here to here.[br]But how would you make that assessment

0:40:42.494,0:40:47.737
as is, we need indicative and strictly [br]from our own projects that are

0:40:47.737,0:40:53.682
trying to do this, so, self-interested[br]in an answer to this problem it seems.

0:40:53.682,0:40:56.636
Really hard stuff.[br](Elissa) I imagine you have, like an

0:40:56.636,0:41:01.677
another crowdsourced group of people[br]who would then go through those

0:41:01.677,0:41:04.624
free text responses and code those.[br]So you would have something like a

0:41:04.624,0:41:08.638
separate project going on at the same time[br]where they'll be able to have certain words

0:41:08.638,0:41:12.687
that comes today we're looking for.[br]In those notes.

0:41:12.687,0:41:15.994
(Audience) I know that there's been[br]some discussion about this in the archives

0:41:15.994,0:41:21.947
field, particularly question of instruction[br]and how much when you bring in a group

0:41:21.947,0:41:24.897
of students into the archives and you[br]teach them how to do research,

0:41:24.897,0:41:28.327
teaching them actually handling the skills,[br]and what they've been doing

0:41:28.327,0:41:32.735
is a pre- and post-test. And trying [br]to compare the results to see

0:41:32.735,0:41:36.956
what they've actually learned.[br]But there's a whole new set of research

0:41:36.956,0:41:41.575
that is going into this because no one [br]is really quite sure that actually works.

0:41:41.575,0:41:47.572
But, I think this is a critical issue[br]for a lot of disciplines right now,

0:41:47.572,0:41:51.117
is trying to figure out what it is[br]you are trying to evaluate

0:41:51.117,0:41:55.474
and how you going to do that evaluation.

0:41:55.474,0:41:58.885
(Host) I'm wondering off, also it gets[br]to the top of the Bloom's pyramid ,

0:41:58.885,0:42:03.276
when you get to that true creative level,[br]but when you start seeing your users

0:42:03.276,0:42:10.390
able to take the skills that they acquired[br]in the course of the interaction with

0:42:10.390,0:42:16.611
the institution and create truly new[br]and different things, and the institution

0:42:16.611,0:42:20.695
has to be willing to accept that,[br]as almost like, well here's one of our

0:42:20.695,0:42:26.420
user's exhibit. You might even call it[br]an exhibit on this topic. It's their

0:42:26.420,0:42:30.039
interpretation, we don't necessarily[br]endorse it, but maybe when we give them

0:42:30.039,0:42:34.897
the space, the digital space in order[br]to demonstrate that creativity.

0:42:34.909,0:42:38.759
So they kind of move up from being[br]worker bees to, you know,

0:42:38.928,0:42:43.507
making something.[br](Elissa) Should they take it even further

0:42:43.507,0:42:49.361
trusting now apart, to be able to --[br](Host) Right, you know, way out there

0:42:49.361,0:42:55.262
interpretations, or people do stuff[br]with your data that you don't even like.

0:42:55.262,0:43:00.262
(Audience) And with the Holocaust Museum[br]you could imagine how that could go.

0:43:00.262,0:43:04.993
(Audience) One of the best ways to,[br]at least to being to get a sense of what

0:43:04.993,0:43:08.210
people are getting out of this [br]is simply to ask them "What did

0:43:08.210,0:43:10.706
you get out of it?"[br]And if they are able to express that

0:43:10.706,0:43:14.656
in a way that is convincing, then you know[br]that it worked.

0:43:14.656,0:43:17.727
(Elissa) That's a good point. We have[br]one teacher, so that the teachers

0:43:17.727,0:43:21.626
going to be working with us starting[br]next week, again, it's been our

0:43:21.626,0:43:24.591
biggest fan for most of the time[br]the project's been up.

0:43:24.591,0:43:27.568
Who assigns students at the end of class[br]due two reflection papers.

0:43:27.568,0:43:31.628
One just the real basics of what did you find[br]on this day, how much time did you spend

0:43:31.628,0:43:35.179
on that project, what did you write,[br]what did the museum write back.

0:43:35.179,0:43:39.109
And reflect on that encounter.[br]And then a new page on just,

0:43:39.109,0:43:43.946
their experience of the site.[br]What it is that they, were thinking

0:43:43.946,0:43:46.637
about getting out of it,[br]what we could do better,

0:43:46.637,0:43:50.608
what they could do better.[br]Next topic. And I think,

0:43:50.608,0:43:55.026
in aggregate, that is the best we've been[br]able to do so far, being able to see what it is

0:43:55.026,0:43:57.950
that people are taking away from the project.[br]I think that if there is some way

0:43:57.950,0:44:03.663
to make that more of the part of the project,[br]to ask people as they leave this thing,

0:44:03.663,0:44:08.974
share something. Answers, questions[br]someone open with it, with us.

0:44:08.974,0:44:10.608
That we're kind of unsure.

0:44:10.608,0:44:13.830
(Audience) I don't know that much about[br]the -- really, a merging discipline

0:44:13.830,0:44:18.181
of learning outcome assessment,[br]knowing we have our own specialist

0:44:18.181,0:44:23.565
gathered through campus, but it's a lot[br]more complex than just asking people

0:44:23.732,0:44:29.767
what they think they've gotten out of it.[br]That's a part of it. And I really think

0:44:29.767,0:44:35.754
that we need to know and we need to[br]figure out ways to know what we are doing.

0:44:35.754,0:44:42.635
Because how can we know if, you know,[br]we're doing a good job of teaching

0:44:42.635,0:44:46.697
the things we want to teach through[br]these slides and through these participation.

0:44:46.697,0:44:52.347
How can we know how to change?[br]To better realize our goals.

0:44:52.347,0:44:56.934
Those are really complex issues [br]and I am actually thinking out of,

0:44:56.934,0:45:00.893
trying to reach out to some learning[br]outcome assessment people just,

0:45:00.893,0:45:06.812
to help think through that part of the equation.[br](Host) So I want to return to encourage you

0:45:06.812,0:45:10.874
to go much further with this, you know,[br]idea of printing it on the tickets

0:45:10.874,0:45:14.866
or making visible in the museum, [br]and lots of other ways if you have

0:45:14.866,0:45:18.424
150,000 Twitter followers, you should [br]be generating a lot more than 1500

0:45:18.424,0:45:23.990
participants. I mean, we work here[br]at the Smithsonian's Encyclopedia of Life project,

0:45:23.990,0:45:30.277
to make a webpage for every species,[br]and they have some of the same concerns

0:45:30.277,0:45:33.844
that you have, but I think you have a grand[br]opportunity to go to your wards and

0:45:33.844,0:45:37.590
your sponsors and rank this up [br]as the central way. This is the future

0:45:37.590,0:45:42.987
of this museum. It's a matter of creating[br]out. That's one thing about educating

0:45:42.987,0:45:46.895
the users but, creating out, reaching and [br]engagement in getting people to

0:45:46.895,0:45:51.184
participate remotely, that may generate[br]more traffic with people who

0:45:51.184,0:45:54.566
come and visit, there's just a lot of ways[br]this should grow bigger, and I'm,

0:45:54.566,0:45:59.112
you know, you should be shy of[br]that growing-ness much larger.

0:45:59.112,0:46:03.188
The fears are prevalent everywhere[br]and maybe the Holocaust museum

0:46:03.188,0:46:08.429
deservedly, as I said, I worked for them[br]on their -- and their fears are prevalent

0:46:08.429,0:46:14.243
about Holocaust deniers taking over these,[br]or polluting results. Even one small error

0:46:14.243,0:46:20.207
in the data set will then trigger a national[br]history that undermines the validity of it all,

0:46:20.207,0:46:25.202
so you do have more concerns than usual,[br]but all of the more reasons to go at it,

0:46:25.202,0:46:29.752
in an unsubstituted way, and deal with[br]the credibility of, you know, ensuring

0:46:29.752,0:46:34.212
the credibility so, it's good that you've got[br]the, sort of, senior reviewer status,

0:46:34.212,0:46:38.422
but various forms of badges and recognition[br]having annual conference for those

0:46:38.422,0:46:42.528
who participating, bringing them in,[br]bringing them together, raising your stature,

0:46:42.528,0:46:45.877
making them leaders of the project,[br]giving them decision making power

0:46:45.877,0:46:51.279
and supervision to control any problems.[br]There's lots of ways you can go much further

0:46:51.279,0:46:56.557
and demanding more of your users [br]while actually causing them to engage.

0:46:56.557,0:46:59.500
So don't be afraid about that. [br]I have one particular question about

0:46:59.500,0:47:03.054
the 1500. You have some distribution[br]of the demographics, I mean there's

0:47:03.054,0:47:06.320
two theories. One says that, well,[br]the museum patrons and interests

0:47:06.320,0:47:10.217
are of an older demographic, and [br]the other says, well, it's the kids who

0:47:10.217,0:47:14.283
are doing online citizen science,[br]so help me with that one.

0:47:14.283,0:47:16.388
(Elissa) Well it's not about askewed,[br]but there's again, a lot of our outreach's [br]

0:47:16.388,0:47:19.970
been through teachers, so, most[br]users here are school-aged,

0:47:19.970,0:47:23.468
so my best users have been in middleschool.[br]Which is for our middle-school educators

0:47:23.468,0:47:27.828
has been incredibly ratifying. [br]But as far as empowering users,

0:47:27.828,0:47:34.695
people who find us not through a school,[br]just on their own, and then, crank out

0:47:34.695,0:47:40.794
at the data, they for the most part[br]been in college or just out of college.

0:47:40.794,0:47:46.239
(Host) I mean you could do a lot more,[br]I am a supporter, I am a contributor

0:47:46.472,0:47:50.074
and a member at -- I have no idea [br]about the Lodz Ghetto project.

0:47:50.074,0:47:54.281
It's just not advertised, doesn't reach[br]me, in either the email traffic I get from

0:47:54.281,0:47:59.287
USAHMM or the printed materials,[br]or the annual reports or anything

0:47:59.287,0:48:03.784
that I get, so I mean I think there's a way[br]that you should be less shy, you should be

0:48:03.784,0:48:09.682
more bold in making these projects [br]are more visible. That will raise the issue

0:48:09.682,0:48:13.614
of credibility but also the value [br]to the museum and you need to

0:48:13.614,0:48:18.689
buy in to the people upstairs.[br]Your directors and your boards.

0:48:18.689,0:48:21.525
To be able to be in to this.[br]I mean, a memorable day was --

0:48:21.525,0:48:26.082
I was working and writing plan[br]for computers in this museum

0:48:26.082,0:48:31.097
where the 70 members of the Holocaust[br]memorial board, many spoke up against it

0:48:31.097,0:48:37.137
saying things like, "If the Nazis had computers,[br]you know, etc." So it was [Shanky Wineburg]

0:48:37.137,0:48:40.951
who was, sort of, the lead designer[br]of this, who said, I mean, settled it all

0:48:40.951,0:48:45.335
with a very sharp quote, he said[br]"Computers are the best way for

0:48:45.335,0:48:50.700
the next generation to learn about the Holocaust."[br]And it was over. You know, making that

0:48:50.700,0:48:56.364
forcible statement, that this is,[br]I'm glad to help you, if that would be useful.

0:48:56.364,0:49:00.467
I'm writing you an email, so[br]you'd be on with that, you know,

0:49:00.467,0:49:06.282
I think there's a lot that you can[br]and should be doing and revving up

0:49:06.282,0:49:12.116
internally as well as externally,[br]absolutely the way to go.

0:49:12.116,0:49:16.677
(Audience) I think what's interesting[br]is that if you trust your users enough,

0:49:16.677,0:49:23.285
say Holocaust deniers did get, well,[br]some material, I mean, how do you

0:49:23.285,0:49:28.738
teach people to do this area well?[br]History is all about refuting, argument

0:49:28.738,0:49:33.567
sets that don't hold up and learning[br]how to do that, and understanding

0:49:33.567,0:49:39.430
that those arguments will inevitably[br]crop up all the time, and as you raise

0:49:39.430,0:49:44.314
your profile you will get more of that.[br]So be prepared, but go there.

0:49:44.314,0:49:48.430
(Audience) Maybe the analogy to look at[br]with the cranks and support is,

0:49:48.430,0:49:54.878
is open source software community.[br]They're, by opening up the software,

0:49:54.878,0:49:57.881
you have a better chance of creating[br]something that is robust, and

0:49:57.881,0:50:04.797
it's going to be protected then if you[br]try to keep it to yourself, control it.

0:50:04.797,0:50:07.910
(Audience) I was thinking, while we're [br]planning follow-up projects where you

0:50:07.910,0:50:10.364
<i>Laughter</i>

0:50:10.364,0:50:16.714
You mentioned that the audience[br]for this is still predominantly American.

0:50:16.714,0:50:20.499
Partly imagine that's because of working[br]with classes, but I wonder whether

0:50:20.499,0:50:25.076
there is a kind of pen-pal-asque kind of[br]angle to this idea on the internet,

0:50:25.076,0:50:28.798
that everywhere and you know,[br]the descendants of many of the people,

0:50:28.798,0:50:32.098
or people who might know about this,[br]or have other sources of information

0:50:32.098,0:50:37.848
are obviously probably still in, might still[br]be in Europe, or in Israel or wherever.

0:50:37.848,0:50:41.528
And I wonder about, sort of, a global[br]outreach, sort of, piece, and how that

0:50:41.528,0:50:47.741
fits in with the museum's position,[br]versus the other Holocaust and remembrance

0:50:47.741,0:50:50.493
institutions.[br](Elissa) My interns actually are working on

0:50:50.493,0:50:56.062
German language arts program,[br]she's coming to us from Berlin this year.

0:50:56.062,0:50:59.536
She was totally jazzed about the Lodz[br]Ghetto project, and probably are

0:50:59.536,0:51:05.687
our heaviest moderator at the moment.[br]And I should send my boss a review,

0:51:05.687,0:51:10.620
as a German language outreach program,[br]to German schools, based on the things

0:51:10.620,0:51:15.007
in their curriculum, and be able to --[br]We had a good group of teachers

0:51:15.007,0:51:18.476
from Poland who came in last year.[br]And I was asked to come and present

0:51:18.476,0:51:22.381
the project to them. And there's actually[br]a lot of hesitancy about it, that

0:51:22.381,0:51:27.994
they didn't like the concept or the framework.[br]Except one woman who actually was

0:51:27.994,0:51:32.708
from Lodz, and she said it was a brilliant[br]idea and that her students would love

0:51:32.708,0:51:37.529
to work on it. Part of the problem is[br]that our resources are in English,

0:51:37.529,0:51:42.357
and all the data is in German. [br]So we have to go through and say that

0:51:42.357,0:51:49.098
yes, Nona is name and Folun is it's [br]first name. And through the expectation

0:51:49.098,0:51:53.653
for our English students, so there's [br]a German name cheatsheet.

0:51:53.653,0:51:57.513
And for our German speakers we already[br]got the data at their disposal

0:51:57.513,0:52:02.142
and a lot of them are taught English[br]in schools. I'm less familiar with how other --

0:52:02.142,0:52:07.560
I guess we could view it as just English[br]class project, for schools. But I think

0:52:07.560,0:52:12.453
it's an excellent idea that we've paired[br]this with our global outreach since part

0:52:12.453,0:52:15.745
of this project still send some admission[br]called the global classroom

0:52:15.745,0:52:19.008
where we do talk about outreach[br]to the world.

0:52:19.008,0:52:22.308
(Audience) I'm curious about the Polish [br]teachers' hesitancy.

0:52:22.308,0:52:31.945
(Elissa) Um, it was bad. Yeah, they didn't [br]like the way we are posing our questions.

0:52:31.945,0:52:37.018
The fact that we just open these students[br]up for anybody to come and look at them.

0:52:37.018,0:52:43.765
And I think there's also some hesitancy about[br]the way that we are reading history.

0:52:43.765,0:52:46.957
Again the idea that history is, being[br]spanned out, is open. They weren't

0:52:46.957,0:52:51.442
[inaudible] the framework,[br]that there could be new questions

0:52:51.442,0:52:55.153
coming out of them. And that's your[br]families -- I'm sure it's not just

0:52:55.153,0:52:58.732
the polish teacher mindset[br]that it was a different group

0:52:58.732,0:53:02.642
with different questions.[br]And I definitely imagine that

0:53:02.642,0:53:09.110
when we are working with different[br]group of teachers and have different outcome.

0:53:09.852,0:53:14.084
(Host) If there are no other questions[br]or comments, let's have a round of applause

0:53:14.084,0:53:16.455
for a really great presentation.

0:53:16.455,0:53:20.628
<i>Applause</i>

0:53:25.830,0:53:31.512
Does not count as genuine.[br]The allographic work, by contrast,

0:53:31.512,0:53:37.220
such as a musical score or poem[br]has no one acceptable instance.

0:53:37.220,0:53:42.759
Or as Goodman puts it, all correct[br]performances or renditions of the work

0:53:42.759,0:53:48.698
are equally genuine instances o f it.[br]Allographic art, therefore we may

0:53:48.698,0:53:54.694
thereby define as a rule-bound.[br]Pondering the question, Goodman asks,

0:53:54.694,0:54:00.503
"Could institution of a notational system[br]transform painting or acting from

0:54:00.503,0:54:06.286
an autographic, into an allographic art."[br]Well Goodman answers the question

0:54:06.482,0:54:09.940
in the negative. "The development of[br]time-based media suggest that

0:54:09.940,0:54:15.555
we reconsider the issue. Past the work[br]of art in the digital era, become akin

0:54:15.555,0:54:21.606
to a symphony or a publication."[br]Does the aim of curators, conservators,

0:54:21.606,0:54:27.275
technical specialist and artists to sort out[br]the implications of such questions going forward.

0:54:27.275,0:54:33.249
As we consider the ramifications of time-based[br]art, which can be reproduced and decimated

0:54:33.249,0:54:38.607
outside the realm of traditional museum[br]environments, what is the significance.

0:54:38.607,0:54:44.175
of showing such work in museums, [br]in a laminar institutions to become repositories

0:54:44.175,0:54:49.954
for such work. When might it be appropriate[br]to recognize that a work of art is essentially

0:54:49.954,0:54:57.281
ephemeral. And when and why might we want[br]to take steps to preserve it and perhaps

0:54:57.281,0:55:03.114
to transform it in order to preserve it.[br]To do so, ultimately, is to privilege

0:55:03.114,0:55:08.770
the idea over matter, recognizing that[br]we must inevitably allow the medium

0:55:08.770,0:55:15.211
in which the work was originally executed[br]to evolve, in the service of its presentation.

0:55:15.211,0:55:19.876
The opportunity to collect exhibit and[br]preserve time-based art, thus provides

0:55:19.876,0:55:25.286
an exceptional opportunity to consider[br]the philosophical locations of new media

0:55:25.286,0:55:29.862
for understanding our world and our selves.[br]As well as to explore the technical

0:55:29.862,0:55:34.650
and intellectual challenges of preserving [br]these works for future audiences,

0:55:34.650,0:55:41.723
and for providing access to them,[br]for audiences now and tomorrow.

0:55:41.723,0:55:45.609
The new technological environment[br]produced by digital media further

0:55:45.609,0:55:50.911
privileges the value of interdisciplinary[br]and interinstitutional collaboration,

0:55:50.911,0:55:55.701
as we explore the tools and strategies[br]necessarily to share time-based and

0:55:55.701,0:56:00.959
digital works with future generations.[br]And on that note, I thank you so much

0:56:00.959,0:56:06.026
for your attention. And I very much looking[br]forward to hearing your thoughts, observations

0:56:06.026,0:56:08.615
and questions. Thank you.

0:56:08.615,0:56:11.769
<i>Applause</i>

0:56:17.678,0:56:21.023
(Anne) Yes[br](Audience) First of all, I have a critical

0:56:21.023,0:56:24.832
question to ask, first of all let me give a --[br]thanking you for that extraordinary

0:56:24.832,0:56:28.942
presentation. I don't get to introduce myself[br]as I was away. I'm sorry about that,

0:56:28.942,0:56:33.117
but I'm coming to mid presentations[br]for years now as a fellow here.

0:56:33.117,0:56:38.553
This is one of the most remarkable[br]that I've seen. There's a lot of deeper

0:56:38.553,0:56:44.029
respect behind these questions.[br]My question is this: on the note of

0:56:44.029,0:56:47.875
[Benjamin] and he's sort of,[br]who was a figure that I distrust,

0:56:47.875,0:56:51.140
as someone was, as far as this type[br]goes as well, and he's mentoring

0:56:51.140,0:56:55.641
notions of the subject rendering[br]management of flux. I wanted to

0:56:55.641,0:57:00.489
get you to reflect on the fact --[br]there's a brave fascination in your idea

0:57:00.489,0:57:04.658
of the time series, and the various[br]flooring that go on with it.

0:57:04.658,0:57:08.223
You can get the point about how [br]conventional ways of formulating

0:57:08.223,0:57:12.992
subjectivity are under attack.[br]But it strikes me as paradoxical

0:57:12.992,0:57:17.944
that the portrait library would be[br]this place where this radical project

0:57:17.944,0:57:21.375
would be going on, and before I want[br]to do that, would rather -- first of all

0:57:21.375,0:57:25.243
it seems to me that a lot of these[br]radical experiment that you put forward

0:57:25.243,0:57:29.735
are actually predicated just as much[br]as [Benjamin]'s essays of [inaudible]

0:57:29.735,0:57:34.223
I have a really nostalgic impulse to recover[br]the subject in the first place.

0:57:34.223,0:57:39.257
When I see those three late night [br]talk show hosts, I was shocked by the news.

0:57:39.257,0:57:42.618
This is I think what the lips are supposed[br]to feel, that the identity of it all,

0:57:42.618,0:57:48.024
the fact that there were, makes me[br]long for a world that is better than that.

0:57:48.024,0:57:52.420
It's a reflection of my alienating world[br]that I want to see the individual,

0:57:52.420,0:57:57.125
so there's the nostalgia there.[br]But I think the problem is even greater

0:57:57.125,0:58:01.836
than that in my mind, that I constant[br]to engage in this radical project while

0:58:01.836,0:58:09.212
presuming that the subject is going [br]to be a portrait, is to presume the very

0:58:09.212,0:58:13.341
thing that was the problem in the [br]first place, you know what I mean?

0:58:13.341,0:58:19.208
Like, if I can put it, it's like the idea[br]of presuming the individual subjects

0:58:19.208,0:58:26.016
so that to attack that idea, is stacking --[br]is not a radical project in the first place.

0:58:26.016,0:58:31.612
When I put Lebron James all by himself[br]in a cube and evacuate the entire cube

0:58:31.612,0:58:36.269
of everything in the world except[br]images of himself and then conduct

0:58:36.269,0:58:40.990
a radical decentering from that,[br]I pre-supposed in the first place

0:58:40.990,0:58:46.423
in totally artificial terms, one, I'm presuming[br]that radically to attack.

0:58:46.423,0:58:50.418
There's something about this project [br]going on in the space of the portrait gallery

0:58:50.418,0:58:55.018
that seems to presume the erratic enemy[br]in the first place, I just wanted put --

0:58:55.018,0:58:59.596
(Anne) I think it's a fabulous -- I think[br]It's a really really fabulous set of observations

0:58:59.596,0:59:03.606
that you put forward and I thank you[br]so much for that, and I have to say

0:59:03.606,0:59:08.567
one of the things that I love so much about[br][Benjamin] and it's like any great author,

0:59:08.567,0:59:13.627
something that keeps me coming back[br]over and over is there are so many facets

0:59:13.627,0:59:19.534
obviously to all of his essays. I have to[br]admit the work of art in the age of mechanical

0:59:19.534,0:59:24.691
reproduction is this magnet for me.[br]And I'm just -- I put it obvious, I think you're

0:59:24.691,0:59:33.752
right, that he seems to be in many instances[br]sort of battling with his own sense of nostalgia.

0:59:33.752,0:59:40.885
And I will also say that I think I really do[br]consider his work extraordinarily artful.

0:59:40.885,0:59:46.156
It's obviously very self conscious in it's [br]construction, as is the case with the artworks

0:59:46.156,0:59:50.497
I shared with you today. And so I guess[br]first and foremost I would say

0:59:50.497,0:59:54.614
I don't think there's any one way to read[br]any of these, and that ultimately

0:59:54.614,0:59:57.920
is the fascination. There are lots of [br]different context in which these can

0:59:57.920,1:00:04.194
function. I do think that the work of art[br]in the age of mechanical reproduction

1:00:04.194,1:00:09.608
itself in terms of observations about[br]subjectivity is really really interesting,

1:00:09.608,1:00:14.153
particularly [Lee] in this essay, when he's[br]grappling with this question of Victorial

1:00:14.153,1:00:17.837
cliffs for example, and really dealing with[br]the fragmentation of the body,

1:00:17.837,1:00:22.214
and new ways in which we could get to[br]literally see and understand the body of result,

1:00:22.214,1:00:28.513
and freeze-frames it and photographic interventions[br]on, but that's a little bit of an aside.

1:00:28.513,1:00:32.717
And you bring up the really important question[br]of, alright, if I'm working at the portrait

1:00:32.717,1:00:37.728
gallery, how can I -- I notices it's not directed[br]personally, but how can one who is attached

1:00:37.728,1:00:42.516
to this notion of a portrait gallery in the[br]first place presume to undermine this notion

1:00:42.516,1:00:49.450
of an individual hand-on one of the things[br]that is important to understand about

1:00:49.450,1:00:53.967
the notion of the portrait gallery itself.[br]I don't mean just ours, but this larger

1:00:53.985,1:00:59.365
intellectual framework, as of course,[br]it too has, a history that relates to

1:00:59.626,1:01:05.451
a specific set of political developments,[br]and specific set of intellectual developments.

1:01:05.451,1:01:10.961
It is a product of mid nineteen century,[br]it seems to be a very British concept,

1:01:10.961,1:01:14.467
which is interesting, [Norship Pointing][br]for example, has made the point that

1:01:14.467,1:01:18.767
portrait galleries tend to exist in the[br]English speaking world, which I actually

1:01:18.767,1:01:26.106
have come to think is attached to ways[br]of thinking about the political significance

1:01:26.106,1:01:30.350
of the individual unit in society[br]that is kind of interesting, especially

1:01:30.350,1:01:34.274
with respect to democratic ideals[br]so I have to say actually, I think there's

1:01:34.274,1:01:39.595
something really interesting about the [br]perhaps hidden political assumptions

1:01:39.595,1:01:46.088
that go along with the portrait itself.[br]But specifically with respect to trying

1:01:46.088,1:01:51.431
to undermine and retask this initial[br]portrait gallery, that has a lot to do

1:01:51.431,1:01:56.520
with the fact that that's where I happen[br]to find myself as a young curator.

1:01:56.520,1:02:01.844
I ended up at the portrait gallery [br]somewhat unexpectedly shortly after

1:02:01.844,1:02:06.281
finishing graduate school. And I --[br]one other things that really intrigued

1:02:06.281,1:02:11.331
me about it, and this is going back[br]twelve years, is that the museum

1:02:11.331,1:02:18.146
underwent a very self-conscious [br]reinvention between 2001 and 2006

1:02:18.146,1:02:22.788
when it was actually under physical renovation.[br]And there was a desire to re-examine

1:02:22.788,1:02:29.781
the very principles of portraiture, which[br]I think has tended to be a form of art making

1:02:29.781,1:02:34.140
that has not gotten a significant amount[br]of credit, I think in the recent past,

1:02:34.140,1:02:40.460
it's been seen as a somewhat tired genre,[br]in fact, in the sixties lots of artists refuse

1:02:40.460,1:02:45.578
to use that term, we think of Chuck Close [br]for example, who does these giant faces.

1:02:45.578,1:02:50.990
But during the sixties he called them heads.[br]He would not acknowledge until relatively

1:02:51.192,1:02:58.718
recently that they are a form of portraiture.[br]And so one of my pleasures, pleasures

1:02:58.718,1:03:04.813
perhaps as a curator has been to ask[br]audience to reconsider what they think

1:03:04.813,1:03:11.601
they know about portraiture by thinking[br]of it -- and this is a thorny term, I'm using

1:03:11.601,1:03:18.114
that word, but I wanted to do is to undo[br]the notion of portraiture and to recast it

1:03:18.114,1:03:22.933
a little bit as a way of thinking about[br]identity and breaking down personal identity.

1:03:22.933,1:03:26.776
But I think you are right to bring up[br]the question about whether or not

1:03:26.776,1:03:37.095
there are in fact some, you know, some [br]types of paradoxes or some assumptions

1:03:37.095,1:03:41.413
that are invented in there that are,[br]you know, in some sense, going against

1:03:41.413,1:03:47.257
the grain of the deeper thinking here.[br]It is really interesting to me to talk with

1:03:47.257,1:03:50.992
contemporary artists and, actually,[br]a project I'm working on right now

1:03:50.992,1:03:56.836
is about portrait extraction, who really[br]do very actively seem to be rediscovering

1:03:56.836,1:04:01.325
or re-examining a notion which certainly[br]goes back to the Renaissance and this is

1:04:01.325,1:04:05.769
the notion that somehow in depicting [br]anybody else, or anything else,

1:04:05.769,1:04:11.296
an artist is obviously reflecting something[br]of who he or she is, but I think the idea

1:04:11.296,1:04:16.461
that that entity can somehow be seen[br]as an envelope, that is impervious to

1:04:16.461,1:04:22.819
outside influence is really completely [br]disintegrated. And yet side by side with that

1:04:22.819,1:04:26.746
we know that we live in this incredible [br]culture of celebrity, and of course

1:04:26.746,1:04:31.968
[Worhose] was critiquing , so there [br]definitely I think it's a very very very intersting

1:04:31.968,1:04:39.698
push-pull and I think you are right[br]to raise these questions on --

1:04:39.698,1:04:41.913
So I'm not sure that's a very satisfying [br]response.

1:04:41.913,1:04:47.590
(Audience) I just wanted to underscore that[br]all these paradoxes that that you unintendedly

1:04:47.590,1:04:52.895
fly by underscore the interest of these lines.[br]Because it seems to me to speak to the

1:04:52.895,1:04:57.241
contradiction of the world that we live in.[br]So thank you very much.

1:04:57.241,1:05:01.045
(Anne) Oh, thank you. Thank for your[br]wonderful question.

1:05:01.045,1:05:04.451
(Audience) Hi, um, thank you for having us,[br]your talk was interesting.

1:05:04.451,1:05:10.691
I was wondering if the distinction of [inaudible][br]autographic and allographic artwork

1:05:10.691,1:05:16.003
can really be helpful for preservation,[br]to artworks, because I think

1:05:16.130,1:05:25.153
the distinction is not that evident or --[br]there's more of a learning space between

1:05:25.153,1:05:29.406
the two, and I think they really applies to[br]all the media that is - all the work so far,

1:05:29.406,1:05:36.677
they are not necessarily time-based.[br]For example, sculpture by Turner,

1:05:36.677,1:05:43.039
and the way that it has to be reorganized[br]in the gallery according to certain

1:05:43.039,1:05:48.102
instructions because it travels in pieces,[br]but it has to be organized. You see,

1:05:48.102,1:05:52.413
that, in a way of performance, all the work,[br]because if something goes wrong,

1:05:52.413,1:05:57.143
you don't know where the things are,[br]you could argue that you are creating

1:05:57.143,1:06:01.355
a new work if you do that. So that means[br]if the first time that that was done

1:06:01.355,1:06:06.935
by the artist himself, that was the autograph[br]and is lost or maybe preserved through

1:06:06.935,1:06:14.773
photography. So that work is un-autographic[br]but it also has autographic instances.

1:06:14.773,1:06:18.985
And then it becomes untruthful work[br]so that if I show you a music as well,

1:06:18.985,1:06:24.739
in a sense you can have performances[br]in terms of someone performing the work

1:06:24.739,1:06:27.853
for, someone creating a new addition, [br]but there will always be someone

1:06:27.853,1:06:33.524
that goes in before, the autographic[br]instances are very in, manuscript, for example.

1:06:33.731,1:06:39.896
And if we think [inaudible][br]they exist in time-based media,

1:06:39.896,1:06:46.910
because you will look for it in each of the page,[br]you will look for proof of the first instance

1:06:46.910,1:06:55.228
of these sequence of art manifestations [br]that will be steadily generated by the artists.

1:06:55.228,1:07:01.880
So, where's about that option[br][inaudible] for preservation.

1:07:01.880,1:07:05.647
(Anne) That's a really interesting point.[br]I guess the assumption that you make

1:07:05.647,1:07:08.529
that there will always a desire to go[br]back to the original form of the

1:07:08.529,1:07:13.194
time-based piece, I think it's not[br]necessarily something that you should in fact

1:07:13.194,1:07:16.936
be taking for granted. It's actually[br]something, of course I have really

1:07:17.063,1:07:21.765
great colleagues, but it is a discussion[br]that I had with members of our staff.

1:07:21.765,1:07:25.968
Why do we need to hold on to this[br]original form, and again, this is where

1:07:25.968,1:07:29.591
I think the paradigm of being about [br]being a historian is so important.

1:07:29.591,1:07:33.947
That my colleagues in exhibitions[br]department were more focused on

1:07:33.947,1:07:37.083
the here and the now, and getting it up[br]on the wall, for them, it's sort of,

1:07:37.083,1:07:41.299
excess baggage to worry about[br]the sixteen iterations that perceive it

1:07:41.299,1:07:45.315
it's not meaningful in the same way[br]in that context as it is to me.

1:07:45.315,1:07:49.297
I think they understand the value of [br]preserving it, and ultimately I think that

1:07:49.297,1:07:53.099
that's where the framework of the museum[br]maybe have something special to

1:07:53.099,1:07:57.750
contribute to this dialogue, but this[br]distinction between allographic

1:07:57.750,1:08:02.412
and autographic I agree, is not a perfect one.[br]And in fact I think there are ways in which

1:08:02.412,1:08:06.461
intentions that we observe in the world of[br]time-based and digital media

1:08:06.461,1:08:12.493
are in fact really simply shedding light[br]on old problems that have always

1:08:12.493,1:08:16.843
been there. Our conservation, has always[br]been about intervention into, you know,

1:08:16.843,1:08:22.704
so-called erratic original, and [br]the conservator has to make choices

1:08:22.704,1:08:28.818
about how to best represent the intent[br]of the original artist or at least what

1:08:28.818,1:08:33.324
is understood as being the original intent.[br]And what I really wanted to do with that

1:08:33.324,1:08:39.487
distinction was to, I guess, disengage from[br]the idea that there is some inherent,

1:08:39.487,1:08:43.214
well, of, but I as a historian I do think[br]there are things to be learned from

1:08:43.214,1:08:46.026
the original that may not even be[br]interesting to the artist, however,

1:08:46.026,1:08:51.298
that aside, I wanted to make a point that[br]if we begin to re-conceptualize visual art,

1:08:51.298,1:08:56.324
which is traditionally been seen as something[br]which is the product of an erratic genius.

1:08:56.324,1:09:00.495
You know, [Benjamin] is obviously trying[br]to disengage that, but it's sort of,

1:09:00.495,1:09:07.179
[fidelization] that continues, that we can[br]begin to see these works of art as things

1:09:07.179,1:09:13.329
that can migrate and retain some resemblance[br]of authenticity, no matter what medium

1:09:13.329,1:09:18.043
they are executed in, as long as they visually[br]represent or conceptually represent

1:09:18.043,1:09:24.160
what the artist wanted that piece to be,[br]but I do think it's an imperfect metaphor.

1:09:24.160,1:09:27.414
Things are going to change, things are[br]going to deteriorate and something ultimately

1:09:27.414,1:09:31.481
maybe a representation of itself.[br]And that becomes, I think it's almost

1:09:31.481,1:09:37.077
sort of interesting philosophical conundrum,[br]and I'll just say one more thing.

1:09:37.077,1:09:41.944
Which is simply to observe that this notion[br]of authenticity also functions

1:09:41.944,1:09:45.700
slightly differently for people who are[br]interested in preserving data,

1:09:45.845,1:09:48.552
and making sure that the data itself[br]doesn't get corrupted. So in fact,

1:09:48.552,1:09:53.670
I think that lots of interesting layers[br]get added in here, that are worth

1:09:53.670,1:09:59.521
thinking about, but it's a great question.[br]Thank you.

1:09:59.521,1:10:06.799
(Audience) I wanted to point out that[br]the idea of the essential self which

1:10:06.799,1:10:13.248
would be captured in the portrait is rather[br]a naive notion or is at fault with the public

1:10:13.248,1:10:17.394
presentation of a person. Everybody knows[br]these people have private lives.

1:10:17.394,1:10:22.038
Everybody knows they did all sorts of things,[br]they were complex beings. And if you take

1:10:22.038,1:10:30.770
something like -- well, it doesn't take[br]new media to bring out the complications

1:10:30.770,1:10:34.333
in the first place. You know, the diaries [br]them-self are worth one avenue,

1:10:34.333,1:10:38.970
but the other thing is, photographic,[br]presentation as in for instance,

1:10:38.970,1:10:43.282
David Duncan spoke on Picasso[br]the private Picasso, he has this big

1:10:43.282,1:10:48.460
photographic record of Picasso [br]in the fifties, the forties and fifties,

1:10:48.460,1:10:53.013
and you get this much complication.[br]In fact, you get a whole lot more complications

1:10:53.013,1:10:58.118
there than you can get in your average[br]presentation, well, you know, the one

1:10:58.118,1:11:03.674
of [Gitzburg], for instance. You get [br]as much from David Duncan as you do

1:11:03.674,1:11:09.834
from the new media presentation.[br]And digitization doesn't actually change

1:11:09.834,1:11:17.329
anything so it's not quite that our notion[br]of a person's identity is modified by

1:11:17.329,1:11:22.653
the exposure of new media. The exposure[br]of new media is interesting if it's own right.

1:11:22.653,1:11:27.552
But it doesn't change the basic concepts[br]that we have of who we are,

1:11:27.552,1:11:32.198
what persons are, what vulnerabilities [br]and complications we have.

1:11:32.198,1:11:35.690
(Anne) I think that's such a great[br]observation and would be so much fun

1:11:35.690,1:11:42.761
to dig into that question with you,[br]I would submit, I would like for the sake

1:11:42.761,1:11:47.766
of argument maybe put forward the idea[br]that I really do think there are ways

1:11:47.766,1:11:54.030
in which we are developing new insights[br]in the present day about self on which

1:11:54.030,1:11:57.979
perhaps are giving us new tools [br]to go back and look at the past.

1:11:57.979,1:12:03.992
For example, the querying of the history[br]of art, for example. Not necessarily,

1:12:03.992,1:12:08.927
which is not to say that things were not[br]present previously that complicates

1:12:08.927,1:12:12.715
the picture, I think you are absolutely[br]right that there's always been

1:12:12.715,1:12:15.730
complexity with the human self.[br]But it is interesting to go back

1:12:15.730,1:12:19.218
and look at the language that[br]the artists use at least, in describing

1:12:19.218,1:12:23.334
their projects. Even somebody like[br]Alfred Stieglitz who was such

1:12:23.463,1:12:29.375
a perceptive and sophisticated photographer,[br]really looked for the essential moment

1:12:29.375,1:12:34.748
to capture somebody. And it's a language[br]but there's somehow I think, embedded

1:12:34.748,1:12:40.617
in that presumption of a privileged way[br]of understanding somebody. And yet of course

1:12:40.617,1:12:46.002
he did lots of different portraits of O'keeffe,[br]you can look at that series of portrait

1:12:46.002,1:12:48.713
presentations.[br](Audience) I would not trust what an artist

1:12:48.713,1:12:56.124
says about his own project. It just isn't reliable.[br]It is self-promotional and --

1:12:56.124,1:13:00.327
(Anne) There's a narrative-reflective[br]paradigm but I loved -- I think your point

1:13:00.327,1:13:02.984
is an excellent one. I think you are [br]pervasing it.

1:13:02.984,1:13:05.929
(Host) We have time for two more,[br]and there's a few people who have been waiting.

1:13:05.929,1:13:09.082
So one there and then at the back.

1:13:09.082,1:13:14.728
(Audience) Dealing with authenticity,[br]how, whenever you are deciding

1:13:14.728,1:13:21.690
to migrate or provide forms for[br]current exhibition, how do you deal

1:13:21.690,1:13:27.457
with deterioration versus intent.[br]For example, in [Globagrew]

1:13:27.457,1:13:33.290
the artist manipulated the signal [br]to get different colors and distortion.

1:13:33.290,1:13:36.671
How do you know what's genuine[br]and how do you know what's real?

1:13:36.671,1:13:41.421
Especially with film, if it's a color film[br]and there's red shift, was that intended?

1:13:41.421,1:13:45.535
(Anne) Yeah, you know, the weird thing[br]is that you don't always know, actually.

1:13:45.535,1:13:51.513
There's a great piece at the [Hershorn][br]by John -- no not John Jordan, um,

1:13:51.513,1:13:56.285
oh goodness, actually the artist's name[br]has just slipped my mind. But I'll get it

1:13:56.285,1:14:01.030
for you. There's this great film piece[br]by a very interesting artist who was

1:14:01.030,1:14:07.673
working in the seventies which is a film piece,[br]and there is sound that goes with it.

1:14:07.673,1:14:12.883
But there's a little bit of a hypothesis,[br]about how we think the artist wanted

1:14:12.883,1:14:16.903
that particular piece to be installed.[br]And the problem is there's an absence

1:14:16.903,1:14:21.588
of documentation. So actually, [br]one of the things that's really interesting

1:14:21.588,1:14:27.313
and this goes to, really actually, any[br]period of artwork that we really have to

1:14:27.313,1:14:31.895
rely very heavily upon an interpretive[br]framework. And so one other thing

1:14:31.895,1:14:35.722
we've been doing in terms of looking[br]at this question about some practices

1:14:35.722,1:14:39.369
is to think about what it means to[br]document the intention of the artist,

1:14:39.369,1:14:43.584
at the outside. And so for example [br]what we try to document now,

1:14:43.584,1:14:48.419
recognizing that this information can[br]very very quickly disappear, is, you know,

1:14:48.578,1:14:52.305
how does the artist want the piece to look[br]what it -- look when it's installed.

1:14:52.305,1:14:56.420
What is it supposed to sound like,[br]and of course inevitably even when

1:14:56.420,1:15:01.755
one tried to document these things[br]meticulously, we have to recognize that

1:15:01.755,1:15:07.217
there's inevitably going to be some slippage.[br]Even when you think you are being very

1:15:07.217,1:15:11.540
meticulous, things like processing[br]times, for computers can change.

1:15:11.540,1:15:20.047
And so I have to say that we do our best[br]to develop data that gives us as many

1:15:20.047,1:15:25.254
points of reference as possible, [br]but I think ultimately we have to recognize

1:15:25.254,1:15:30.650
that it is to a certain degree,[br]an imperfect science. We also something

1:15:30.650,1:15:35.387
called a Checksum value to try to [br]determine that the data moving forward

1:15:35.387,1:15:41.962
is kept in tack, but I think it's very[br]interesting that historically the --

1:15:41.962,1:15:46.916
in order to be sure that there are it,[br]problems for example, with the migration

1:15:46.916,1:15:51.253
of video into digital format, except[br]there's been curators, I mean,

1:15:51.253,1:15:55.616
[conservators], or probably curators too,[br]and certainly conservators who sit and look

1:15:55.616,1:16:00.157
intently at something to be sure that[br]there are no disruptions. We can't do that

1:16:00.157,1:16:04.632
with a generative work, so we've moved[br]beyond the point at which human perception

1:16:04.632,1:16:09.858
can really answer these questions for us.[br]And so I think on a certain level we have to

1:16:09.858,1:16:15.572
accept a certain degree of slippage,[br]and a certain degree of imperfection,

1:16:15.572,1:16:21.549
inability to completely nail something down,[br]and again, that is kind of a mind shift.

1:16:21.549,1:16:25.049
We've become comfortable with the fact[br]that we know everything will always be

1:16:25.049,1:16:29.426
something of an observation.[br]So I don't know if that --

1:16:29.426,1:16:33.943
(Audience) Those helped. Thank you.[br](Host) So I'm afraid that we are out of time,

1:16:33.943,1:16:38.522
I'm sure Anne will be happy to stick around[br]if there are a couple of more questions,

1:16:38.522,1:16:41.171
but let's thank her for a really interesting clip.

1:16:41.171,1:16:44.987
<i>Applause</i>

1:16:50.272,1:16:53.212
(Anne) I can definitely stick around.[br](Audience) What is a generative?

1:16:53.212,1:16:58.886
(Anne) Oh right, we started with this term of --[br]yeah, it's a relatively new term and it refers

1:16:58.886,1:17:05.382
to artwork that has no -- that doesn't loop.[br]That is continuously changing, so there is

1:17:05.382,1:17:10.097
code behind the image that leads to[br]ever-changing permutations of the way

1:17:10.097,1:17:16.690
in which the digital data is combined[br]and output. So there is no one instance

1:17:16.690,1:17:21.017
of the work. It's constantly changing.[br]One can describe the generative is --

1:17:21.017,1:17:25.059
(Audience) So a network piece,[br]is generative enough? It can

1:17:25.059,1:17:27.815
run on for a hundred years?[br](Anne) Forever. And you'll see

1:17:27.815,1:17:30.502
ever-changing combinations.[br](Audience) Yeah, maybe not very

1:17:30.502,1:17:33.496
interestingly different, but none the less.[br](Anne) Yeah that's right, exactly.

1:17:33.496,1:17:37.399
You could just -- you did a pretty good job[br]describing it. Especially after fifty

1:17:37.399,1:17:40.715
or so minutes. Yeah.