1 00:00:11,294 --> 00:00:14,880 [JOHN BALDESSARI] I'm always interested in things that we don't call art, 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,120 and I'd say, "Well, why not? 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,660 I mean, why--you know, what could I do this to make it art? 4 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:22,688 How could I change people's minds? 5 00:00:23,052 --> 00:00:26,080 [machine humming] 6 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:31,855 I am making art. I am making art. 7 00:00:34,433 --> 00:00:37,320 You know, I love it. Like--like, you know, all of 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,479 a sudden, because I said it's art, somebody believes me. 9 00:00:43,737 --> 00:00:47,153 What interests me in life is the absurdity in life. 10 00:00:47,153 --> 00:00:47,995 [laughs] 11 00:00:56,413 --> 00:00:57,782 [door closes] 12 00:01:00,220 --> 00:01:02,540 - Hey, John. - Hi, Marie. 13 00:01:02,540 --> 00:01:05,756 - Okay, I got these new ones. - Oh, good. 14 00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:07,431 - A couple of them... - Good. 15 00:01:07,431 --> 00:01:10,950 - that I have some questions  about. I'll put them up. 16 00:01:17,747 --> 00:01:20,000 - Art making is about making a choice. 17 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,040 For me, it was like you choose one thing over another: 18 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,280 this color over that color or this object over that object 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,220 or– you know, on and on and on. 20 00:01:29,220 --> 00:01:30,692 And you have to make a choice. 21 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,360 -Okay, so the questions that I had about these ones are, 22 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,840 I know that you want these framed individually, but do you 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,320 also want these framed individually, or are they just 24 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:44,551 gonna be one print that's framed in one frame? 25 00:01:44,551 --> 00:01:47,640 -They'll be in a single frame. -Okay. 26 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,200 -Well, maybe not now but later, you know, I have other 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,040 questions that we could talk about, yeah. 28 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,175 -Okay. No problem. 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,280 -My emergence in the art world: 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,453 I was linked with conceptual art, minimal art. 31 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,240 never quite totally subscribed 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:07,753 to it; I thought it was a little boring. 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,960 But there were a lot of things I didn't want to shed, 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,777 and one of them was being tasteful. 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,840 That's one of the reasons I gave up painting, because it was all 36 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,803 about being tasteful: you know, the right red next to the right 37 00:02:20,803 --> 00:02:23,839 blue, and you're very carefully mixing the colors. 38 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,960 I just decided to be 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,760 very systematic about it and use the color wheel. 40 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,640 Yeah, I like the guy– the green guy. 41 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:43,828 He might be too green. I don't know. 42 00:02:43,828 --> 00:02:45,060 -Oh, yeah? - I'm still thinking about it. 43 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:50,932 - Yeah, a little toxic green. - Yeah. Yeah. 44 00:02:50,932 --> 00:02:52,759 I don't know. Anything else? 45 00:02:54,517 --> 00:02:57,776 My father was Catholic. My mother was Lutheran. 46 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,927 I went to a Methodist church. That was the local church. 47 00:03:03,310 --> 00:03:05,560 I certainly got a love of literature, reading the bible, 48 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,347 You know, the King James version. 49 00:03:08,144 --> 00:03:13,360 And I got a real sense of moral obligation, and I think 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,878 that's why I was a later starter in art, because I– 51 00:03:18,214 --> 00:03:20,480 art didn't seem to do anybody any good that I could see. 52 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,440 It didn't heal bones. 53 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440 It didn't help people find shelter or whatever. 54 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,671 And I wanted to be a social worker, I think. 55 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:30,920 Got to say, I owe it to my sister. 56 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:32,920 I got my degree in art, and she said, 57 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,260 "Well, how are you gonna support yourself?" 58 00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:35,760 [chuckles] 59 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,478 So I got a teaching credential. 60 00:03:39,837 --> 00:03:44,560 Teaching is about communication. Lecturing doesn't do it. 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,120 You have to see the light in the students' eyes that they get it. 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,680 And if you don't see the light, then you try another approach 63 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,040 and another approach until they get it. 64 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,080 And then I realized that art was about communication. 65 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,680 I was learning how to communicate by teaching. 66 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,360 And– and then the art infected 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,240 my classroom teaching, trying to be inventive there. 68 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,320 And in effect, I was saying, "the art I do is what I'm 69 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,830 talking about in the classroom, and vice versa." 70 00:04:16,830 --> 00:04:17,906 You know, they're interchangeable. 71 00:04:20,812 --> 00:04:23,200 One thing– I was trying to teach students how to look. 72 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,160 I said, "If you're looking at two things, don't look at them; 73 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,340 look between them... 74 00:04:30,473 --> 00:04:34,800 because there's that stuff too. That's– this is important." But we prioritize. 75 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,920 We– you know, if I'm looking at this wall over here, it's normal 76 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,560 to look at something pinned to the wall. 77 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:43,960 I'm not looking at the space 78 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,814 between those two things. But that's very important. 79 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,480 Words are just a way we 80 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,600 communicate, images are a way we communicate, and I couldn't 81 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,501 figure out why they had to be in different baskets. 82 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,600 I think in my multiple-image pieces, 83 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,227 I probably have this idea that there's a word behind them. 84 00:05:18,610 --> 00:05:23,120 I'm probably building like a writer or a poet builds  85 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,089 with words. 86 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:46,400 -John came to my studio at UCLA, 87 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,520 and we had a meeting, and he said, "I have an opportunity 88 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,280 for you," which was very exciting, 89 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:55,040 I mean, just to hear that, right? 90 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Like, I was like– 91 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,160 You know, I knew some of my classmates were maybe working 92 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,920 for him, doing a little painting or working doing a little 93 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,480 Photoshop for him or something like that. 94 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,400 And I said, "Wow, okay, what is it?" 95 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,860 And he's like, "Well, I just got this dog, and I need someone to walk him." 96 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:15,080 [laughing] 97 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,373 And I said, "Okay." I'm like, "Let me think about it." 98 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,000 He knew I was having a little 99 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,480 trouble at school, you know, like, with my work and going 100 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,920 through a little grad school crisis in terms of ideas and so on. 101 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,642 So he said, "Okay, every Monday, you have to bring work to me." 102 00:06:38,884 --> 00:06:40,503 And so we began. 103 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,920 I think he taught me to be human when it comes to the work. 104 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,640 You know, there is something very humble about the way he works. 105 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,400 He comes here every morning at the same time. 106 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,880 He shows you how, you know, it's a long process. 107 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,744 I mean, it's a lifetime commitment to the work. 108 00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:14,880 - In the early years, I would 109 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,227 just make work, and it would be shipped to the gallery. 110 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,520 And then one would spend three 111 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,800 or four days moving works around and seeing how one spoke to the 112 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,800 other, how the size of one work would relate to the size of the other, 113 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,000 you know, all of those problems that would make hanging 114 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,250 one work next to another less good than another hanging. 115 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:40,920 [chuckles] 116 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,800 And I would always ship more work than I needed because you 117 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,641 never know what you're going to need. 118 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,520 I did a retrospective show 119 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,560 that started at the Museum of Contemporary art in Los Angeles. 120 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,640 And I saw how they had a model ad worked with everything, 121 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,534 and I said, "Well, why don't I do that?" 122 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,080 This is a model of the 123 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,779 Haus Lange by Mies Van Der Rohe In Krefeld, Germany. 124 00:08:26,935 --> 00:08:29,480 One of the principle things I'm 125 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:36,360 doing with the Mies Van Der Rohe Haus is to use his materials in 126 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,880 a way that would be more than he would have used them. 127 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,960 And the principle material here is brick, which he wasn't 128 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,760 particularly fond of. 129 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,680 Curiously, he did work in his 130 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:50,024 father's brickyard, so he did have some familiarity with the material. 131 00:08:51,219 --> 00:08:54,480 All of the outside walls, where 132 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,720 there's a window, they're covered up with fake brick. 133 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,739 So you will see no windows whatsoever. 134 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,197 And Mies Van Der Rohe was very careful in framing the views of the garden. 135 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,000 Where there is a window in 136 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,800 the walls, there will be substituted views of the 137 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:23,773 Pacific Ocean and landscape in Southern California. 138 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,840 But in front of each window, 139 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,280 there'll be one Mies Van Der Rohe chair where you can sit and 140 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,763 contemplate the view. 141 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,560 Then in one wall, I'm having 142 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:43,440 manufactured as an addition a couch in the shape of an ear, 143 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,040 flanked left and right by two upturned noses as sconces 144 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,240 so that you'll either have light or flowers coming out of the nostrils. 145 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,854 So I figured it's everything that tMies Van Der Rohe would hate. 146 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,000 And rather than glorify Mies Van Der Rohe– 147 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,360 He's had enough glorification-- I just thought I would, you know, 148 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:29,240 poke a little fun of him, do reverse Mies Van Der Rohe. 149 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,320 Actually, I started using stills 150 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,240 from movies not because they were from the movies; 151 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:44,080 I could get the pictures cheaply. 152 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,080 For me, it's using this data bank of images 153 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,520 people carry around in their head, and then playing and 154 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:59,160 rearranging those images for them. 155 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,160 A lot of photographs I had bought would be from newspapers. 156 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,800 And they would be local celebrities, whatever: 157 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,840 The major, the fire chief, some dignitary. 158 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,120 And a lot them, they would be 159 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,400 pointing to things, shaking hands, smiling at the– 160 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,600 You know, it's a photo op, you know, kind of thing. 161 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,560 Standing with the president; that sort of thing. 162 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,120 And I was attracted but repulsed 163 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:31,440 by these, and I realized why I was repulsed by them was that 164 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,440 I was there, isolated in my studio, and these people were 165 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,360 making decisions that would probably affect me, and, 166 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,040 you know, I was not doing anything about it. 167 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,840 And that was one of the arguments I had with art in the 168 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:49,440 first places, that, you know, it's not doing anything. 169 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,040 I was using these price  170 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,120 stickers, and I just put them over the faces, and I said, 171 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,920 "Wow." 172 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,120 The phrase I keep using is, it leveled the playing field. 173 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:02,080 All of a sudden, they had no 174 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,280 power on me and really saw them for what they were. 175 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,857 They were replaceable even though the person changes. 176 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,754 I think my idea is this: 177 00:12:43,739 --> 00:12:47,023 not so much structure that it's inhibiting– 178 00:12:47,023 --> 00:12:51,713 I mean, that's there's no wiggle room– 179 00:12:51,713 --> 00:12:55,640 but not so loose that it could be anything. 180 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,640 I guess it's like a corral. 181 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,880 It's a corral around your idea: 182 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,520 That you can move but not too much. 183 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,282 And it's that limited movement that promotes creativity. 184 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,600 I've been working over the years with various body parts. 185 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,680 I think I started out with noses. 186 00:13:21,766 --> 00:13:27,190 And then ears. Then noses and ears. 187 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,720 And now I'm doing foreheads with furrows 188 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,840 and eyebrows. 189 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,760 You know, you always come back 190 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,592 to the same idea but from a different direction. 191 00:13:49,647 --> 00:13:54,283 Yeah, we're gonna do dog eyebrows next.