0:00:11.294,0:00:14.880 [JOHN BALDESSARI] I'm always interested in[br]things that we don't call art, 0:00:14.880,0:00:16.120 and I'd say, "Well, why not? 0:00:16.120,0:00:19.660 I mean, why--you know, what[br]could I do this to make it art? 0:00:21.160,0:00:22.688 How could I change people's minds? 0:00:23.052,0:00:26.080 [machine humming] 0:00:26.080,0:00:31.855 I am making art.[br]I am making art. 0:00:34.433,0:00:37.320 You know, I love it.[br]Like--like, you know, all of 0:00:37.320,0:00:40.479 a sudden, because I said[br]it's art, somebody believes me. 0:00:43.737,0:00:47.153 What interests me in life is the[br]absurdity in life. 0:00:47.153,0:00:47.995 [laughs] 0:00:56.413,0:00:57.782 [door closes] 0:01:00.220,0:01:02.540 - Hey, John.[br]- Hi, Marie. 0:01:02.540,0:01:05.756 - Okay, I got these new ones.[br]- Oh, good. 0:01:05.756,0:01:07.431 - A couple of them...[br]- Good. 0:01:07.431,0:01:10.950 - that I have some questions [br]about. I'll put them up. 0:01:17.747,0:01:20.000 - Art making is about making a choice. 0:01:21.840,0:01:25.040 For me, it was like you choose[br]one thing over another: 0:01:25.040,0:01:28.280 this color over that color[br]or this object over that object 0:01:28.280,0:01:29.220 or– you know, on and on and on. 0:01:29.220,0:01:30.692 And you have to make a choice. 0:01:31.840,0:01:37.360 -Okay, so the questions that[br]I had about these ones are, 0:01:37.360,0:01:39.840 I know that you want these[br]framed individually, but do you 0:01:39.840,0:01:42.320 also want these framed[br]individually, or are they just 0:01:42.320,0:01:44.551 gonna be one print that's framed[br]in one frame? 0:01:44.551,0:01:47.640 -They'll be in a single frame.[br]-Okay. 0:01:47.640,0:01:51.200 -Well, maybe not now but[br]later, you know, I have other 0:01:51.200,0:01:53.040 questions that we could talk[br]about, yeah. 0:01:53.040,0:01:54.175 -Okay. No problem. 0:01:56.120,0:01:58.280 -My emergence in the art world: 0:01:58.280,0:02:01.453 I was linked with[br]conceptual art, minimal art. 0:02:03.680,0:02:06.240 never quite totally subscribed 0:02:06.240,0:02:07.753 to it; I thought it was[br]a little boring. 0:02:10.120,0:02:11.960 But there were a lot of things[br]I didn't want to shed, 0:02:11.960,0:02:13.777 and one of them was[br]being tasteful. 0:02:15.160,0:02:17.840 That's one of the reasons I gave[br]up painting, because it was all 0:02:17.840,0:02:20.803 about being tasteful: you know,[br]the right red next to the right 0:02:20.803,0:02:23.839 blue, and you're very carefully[br]mixing the colors. 0:02:24.800,0:02:25.960 I just decided to be 0:02:25.960,0:02:29.760 very systematic about it[br]and use the color wheel. 0:02:38.560,0:02:41.640 Yeah, I like the guy–[br]the green guy. 0:02:41.640,0:02:43.828 He might be too green.[br]I don't know. 0:02:43.828,0:02:45.060 -Oh, yeah?[br]- I'm still thinking about it. 0:02:45.060,0:02:50.932 - Yeah, a little toxic green.[br]- Yeah. Yeah. 0:02:50.932,0:02:52.759 I don't know.[br]Anything else? 0:02:54.517,0:02:57.776 My father was Catholic.[br]My mother was Lutheran. 0:02:58.760,0:03:01.927 I went to a Methodist church.[br]That was the local church. 0:03:03.310,0:03:05.560 I certainly got a love of[br]literature, reading the bible, 0:03:05.560,0:03:07.347 You know, the King James version. 0:03:08.144,0:03:13.360 And I got a real sense of[br]moral obligation, and I think 0:03:13.360,0:03:16.878 that's why I was a later starter[br]in art, because I– 0:03:18.214,0:03:20.480 art didn't seem to do anybody[br]any good that I could see. 0:03:20.480,0:03:21.440 It didn't heal bones. 0:03:21.440,0:03:24.440 It didn't help people find[br]shelter or whatever. 0:03:24.440,0:03:26.671 And I wanted to be a social[br]worker, I think. 0:03:29.320,0:03:30.920 Got to say, I owe it to[br]my sister. 0:03:30.920,0:03:32.920 I got my degree in art, and she said, 0:03:32.920,0:03:35.260 "Well, how are you gonna[br]support yourself?" 0:03:35.260,0:03:35.760 [chuckles] 0:03:36.560,0:03:38.478 So I got a teaching credential. 0:03:39.837,0:03:44.560 Teaching is about communication.[br]Lecturing doesn't do it. 0:03:44.560,0:03:48.120 You have to see the light in the[br]students' eyes that they get it. 0:03:48.120,0:03:50.680 And if you don't see the light,[br]then you try another approach 0:03:50.680,0:03:54.040 and another approach[br]until they get it. 0:03:54.040,0:03:57.080 And then I realized that art was[br]about communication. 0:03:57.080,0:03:59.680 I was learning how to[br]communicate by teaching. 0:04:00.640,0:04:05.360 And– and then the art infected 0:04:05.360,0:04:09.240 my classroom teaching, trying to[br]be inventive there. 0:04:09.240,0:04:14.320 And in effect, I was saying,[br]"the art I do is what I'm 0:04:14.320,0:04:16.830 talking about in the classroom,[br]and vice versa." 0:04:16.830,0:04:17.906 You know, they're[br]interchangeable. 0:04:20.812,0:04:23.200 One thing– I was trying to teach[br]students how to look. 0:04:23.200,0:04:26.160 I said, "If you're looking at[br]two things, don't look at them; 0:04:26.160,0:04:28.340 look between them... 0:04:30.473,0:04:34.800 because there's that stuff too. That's– this is important."[br]But we prioritize. 0:04:34.800,0:04:40.920 We– you know, if I'm looking at[br]this wall over here, it's normal 0:04:40.920,0:04:42.560 to look at something pinned[br]to the wall. 0:04:42.560,0:04:43.960 I'm not looking at the space 0:04:43.960,0:04:46.814 between those two things.[br]But that's very important. 0:04:52.720,0:04:54.480 Words are just a way we 0:04:54.480,0:04:57.600 communicate, images are a way[br]we communicate, and I couldn't 0:04:57.600,0:05:00.501 figure out why they had to be[br]in different baskets. 0:05:10.040,0:05:13.600 I think in my multiple-image pieces, 0:05:13.600,0:05:17.227 I probably have this[br]idea that there's a word behind them. 0:05:18.610,0:05:23.120 I'm probably building like[br]a writer or a poet builds 0:05:23.120,0:05:24.089 with words. 0:05:44.280,0:05:46.400 -John came to my studio at UCLA, 0:05:46.400,0:05:50.520 and we had a meeting, and[br]he said, "I have an opportunity 0:05:50.520,0:05:53.280 for you," which was very exciting, 0:05:53.280,0:05:55.040 I mean, just to hear that, right? 0:05:55.040,0:05:56.160 Like, I was like– 0:05:56.160,0:05:59.160 You know, I knew some of my[br]classmates were maybe working 0:05:59.160,0:06:02.920 for him, doing a little painting[br]or working doing a little 0:06:02.920,0:06:05.480 Photoshop for him[br]or something like that. 0:06:05.480,0:06:08.400 And I said, "Wow, okay,[br]what is it?" 0:06:08.400,0:06:13.860 And he's like, "Well, I just got this dog,[br]and I need someone to walk him." 0:06:13.860,0:06:15.080 [laughing] 0:06:15.080,0:06:20.373 And I said, "Okay."[br]I'm like, "Let me think about it." 0:06:22.600,0:06:24.000 He knew I was having a little 0:06:24.000,0:06:28.480 trouble at school, you know,[br]like, with my work and going 0:06:28.480,0:06:32.920 through a little grad school[br]crisis in terms of ideas and so on. 0:06:32.920,0:06:37.642 So he said, "Okay, every Monday,[br]you have to bring work to me." 0:06:38.884,0:06:40.503 And so we began. 0:06:43.480,0:06:48.920 I think he taught me to be human[br]when it comes to the work. 0:06:50.600,0:06:56.640 You know, there is something[br]very humble about the way he works. 0:06:56.640,0:06:59.400 He comes here every morning[br]at the same time. 0:07:00.400,0:07:02.880 He shows you how, you know,[br]it's a long process. 0:07:02.880,0:07:06.744 I mean, it's a lifetime[br]commitment to the work. 0:07:13.190,0:07:14.880 - In the early years, I would 0:07:14.880,0:07:19.227 just make work, and it would be[br]shipped to the gallery. 0:07:20.680,0:07:23.520 And then one would spend three 0:07:23.520,0:07:27.800 or four days moving works around[br]and seeing how one spoke to the 0:07:27.800,0:07:31.800 other, how the size of one work[br]would relate to the size of the other, 0:07:31.800,0:07:35.000 you know, all of those[br]problems that would make hanging 0:07:35.000,0:07:39.250 one work next to another less[br]good than another hanging. 0:07:39.250,0:07:40.920 [chuckles] 0:07:40.920,0:07:45.800 And I would always ship more[br]work than I needed because you 0:07:45.800,0:07:48.641 never know what you're going to need. 0:07:52.040,0:07:53.520 I did a retrospective show 0:07:53.520,0:07:57.560 that started at the Museum of[br]Contemporary art in Los Angeles. 0:07:57.560,0:08:00.640 And I saw how they had a model[br]ad worked with everything, 0:08:00.640,0:08:02.534 and I said, "Well, why don't[br]I do that?" 0:08:18.160,0:08:20.080 This is a model of the 0:08:20.080,0:08:24.779 Haus Lange by Mies Van Der Rohe[br]In Krefeld, Germany. 0:08:26.935,0:08:29.480 One of the principle things I'm 0:08:29.480,0:08:36.360 doing with the Mies Van Der Rohe[br]Haus is to use his materials in 0:08:36.360,0:08:38.880 a way that would be more than he[br]would have used them. 0:08:38.880,0:08:41.960 And the principle material here[br]is brick, which he wasn't 0:08:41.960,0:08:43.760 particularly fond of. 0:08:43.760,0:08:45.680 Curiously, he did work in his 0:08:45.680,0:08:50.024 father's brickyard, so he did[br]have some familiarity with the material. 0:08:51.219,0:08:54.480 All of the outside walls, where 0:08:54.480,0:08:57.720 there's a window, they're[br]covered up with fake brick. 0:08:57.720,0:08:59.739 So you will see no windows whatsoever. 0:09:06.560,0:09:10.197 And Mies Van Der Rohe was very[br]careful in framing the views of the garden. 0:09:12.400,0:09:14.000 Where there is a window in 0:09:14.000,0:09:17.800 the walls, there will be[br]substituted views of the 0:09:17.800,0:09:23.773 Pacific Ocean and landscape[br]in Southern California. 0:09:27.640,0:09:30.840 But in front of each window, 0:09:30.840,0:09:34.280 there'll be one Mies Van Der Rohe[br]chair where you can sit and 0:09:34.280,0:09:35.763 contemplate the view. 0:09:36.560,0:09:38.560 Then in one wall, I'm having 0:09:38.560,0:09:43.440 manufactured as an addition[br]a couch in the shape of an ear, 0:09:43.440,0:09:47.040 flanked left and right by two[br]upturned noses as sconces 0:09:47.040,0:09:51.240 so that you'll either have light[br]or flowers coming out of the nostrils. 0:09:51.240,0:09:54.854 So I figured it's everything[br]that tMies Van Der Rohe would hate. 0:10:00.000,0:10:03.000 And rather than glorify[br]Mies Van Der Rohe– 0:10:03.000,0:10:06.360 He's had enough glorification--[br]I just thought I would, you know, 0:10:06.360,0:10:29.240 poke a little fun of him,[br]do reverse Mies Van Der Rohe. 0:10:29.240,0:10:31.320 Actually, I started using stills 0:10:31.320,0:10:34.240 from movies not because they[br]were from the movies; 0:10:34.240,0:10:44.080 I could get the pictures cheaply. 0:10:44.080,0:10:48.080 For me, it's using this[br]data bank of images 0:10:48.080,0:10:50.520 people carry around in[br]their head, and then playing and 0:10:50.520,0:10:59.160 rearranging those images[br]for them. 0:10:59.160,0:11:03.160 A lot of photographs I had[br]bought would be from newspapers. 0:11:03.160,0:11:07.800 And they would be local[br]celebrities, whatever: 0:11:07.800,0:11:12.840 The major, the fire chief,[br]some dignitary. 0:11:12.840,0:11:14.120 And a lot them, they would be 0:11:14.120,0:11:16.400 pointing to things, shaking[br]hands, smiling at the– 0:11:16.400,0:11:18.600 You know, it's a photo op,[br]you know, kind of thing. 0:11:18.600,0:11:21.560 Standing with the president;[br]that sort of thing. 0:11:21.560,0:11:25.120 And I was attracted but repulsed 0:11:25.120,0:11:31.440 by these, and I realized why[br]I was repulsed by them was that 0:11:31.440,0:11:34.440 I was there, isolated in my[br]studio, and these people were 0:11:34.440,0:11:37.360 making decisions that would[br]probably affect me, and, 0:11:37.360,0:11:39.040 you know, I was not doing[br]anything about it. 0:11:39.040,0:11:41.840 And that was one of the[br]arguments I had with art in the 0:11:41.840,0:11:49.440 first places, that, you know,[br]it's not doing anything. 0:11:49.440,0:11:51.040 I was using these price 0:11:51.040,0:11:54.120 stickers, and I just put them[br]over the faces, and I said, 0:11:54.120,0:11:56.920 "Wow." 0:11:56.920,0:12:01.120 The phrase I keep using is,[br]it leveled the playing field. 0:12:01.120,0:12:02.080 All of a sudden, they had no 0:12:02.080,0:12:05.280 power on me and really saw them[br]for what they were. 0:12:05.280,0:12:08.857 They were replaceable even[br]though the person changes. 0:12:36.520,0:12:39.754 I think my idea is this: 0:12:43.739,0:12:47.023 not so much structure that it's inhibiting– 0:12:47.023,0:12:51.713 I mean,[br]that's there's no wiggle room– 0:12:51.713,0:12:55.640 but not so loose that[br]it could be anything. 0:12:55.640,0:12:57.640 I guess it's like a corral. 0:12:57.640,0:12:59.880 It's a corral around your idea: 0:12:59.880,0:13:02.520 That you can move[br]but not too much. 0:13:02.520,0:13:06.282 And it's that limited movement[br]that promotes creativity. 0:13:11.720,0:13:16.600 I've been working over the years[br]with various body parts. 0:13:16.600,0:13:19.680 I think I started out with noses. 0:13:21.766,0:13:27.190 And then ears.[br]Then noses and ears. 0:13:30.880,0:13:36.720 And now I'm doing foreheads[br]with furrows 0:13:36.720,0:13:38.840 and eyebrows. 0:13:38.840,0:13:39.760 You know, you always come back 0:13:39.760,0:13:42.592 to the same idea but from[br]a different direction. 0:13:49.647,0:13:54.283 Yeah, we're gonna do[br]dog eyebrows next.