0:00:42.658,0:00:46.745 There's also American Indians, if I may say, some tribes... 0:00:46.745,0:00:53.665 - So, in America, democracy... - The chief who was elected by tribesmen was just there so that complaints could be made 0:00:53.665,0:00:55.058 but they really had no power. 0:00:55.058,0:00:58.355 - That's great ! The American Indians, it's another example of Democracy 0:00:58.355,0:01:02.674 other than Athens ; but we're more on the Constitutional process here but... yes it's still very interesting 0:01:02.674,0:01:07.643 Another example of Democracy other than Athens, which is a Big example of 200 years, 0:01:07.643,0:01:10.476 that was something sturdy where they were organised and the organisation 0:01:10.476,0:01:15.398 would be interesting for us today... It was namely the Iroquois, but it was almost 0:01:15.398,0:01:22.550 all American Indian tribes, so let's just say the American Indians. So they had chiefs, but these chiefs 0:01:22.550,0:01:25.913 only had power during war time. Only during a war did the chief have power. 0:01:25.913,0:01:31.393 But in peace time, the chiefs had no power. So, they had the feathers, 0:01:31.393,0:01:37.073 they had the throne, or at least a special seat for the chief... In truth, it was as if the Indians 0:01:37.073,0:01:42.513 were afraid of those who steal power. And so it's as if they planned everything so that the position of 0:01:42.513,0:01:47.113 chief existed, so that someone could be in it, so that those who wanted to steal the power 0:01:47.113,0:01:51.073 just couldn't go and take it, since there was already a chief... But the chief, he's there, 0:01:51.073,0:01:56.753 he has the spot of Chief, but he has no power. He has no power and we're going to show him every day 0:01:56.753,0:02:00.953 that he has no power. He has to give us presents. First, when he is nominated Chief, 0:02:00.953,0:02:04.353 we are going to nominate him and he can't refuse - that's why it worked - 0:02:04.353,0:02:07.726 and then once he's nominated, he had to give us presents. And all day long, 0:02:07.726,0:02:12.228 the chief, there, he talks, he negociates, he talks, and he goes on an on... and we walk by him 0:02:12.228,0:02:17.571 without even giving him a look. We just ignore him. We ... just to show him that he's the chief, 0:02:17.571,0:02:23.187 but he's not a real chief, you see. It's strange isn't it ? You see there all the procedures 0:02:23.187,0:02:27.926 that the American Indians put in place to protect themselves against abuse of power. 0:02:27.926,0:02:31.535 It's something else than the Athenians, but it's of the same... it's of the same family, that's what it really is. 0:02:31.535,0:02:35.773 It's interesting for us... So, in my opinion, it's less sturdy. I don't see well how 0:02:35.773,0:02:39.209 we could apply the same thing. You'll see that the Athenian Democracy, 0:02:39.209,0:02:42.924 there are many ideas who come along and you just think: now that's interesting, and this is too, and that also... 0:02:42.924,0:02:47.140 There are many things that we can just take as they are from the Athenians whereas from the American Indians... 0:02:47.140,0:02:52.073 I don't see well, or I don't see us well with a chief just there and talking, and we'd just walk on by, ignoring him. 0:02:52.073,0:03:02.615 That's good for small societies, really small societies... So where was I ? So... 0:03:02.615,0:03:11.856 I'll just pick up my thread again... I had stopped at the election. 200 years ago, everyone knew that an election 0:03:11.856,0:03:16.036 was aristocratic. Today, we completly forgot that, because every day 0:03:16.036,0:03:21.562 we are reminded that an election equals democracy, democracy equals an election... 200 years ago, if we had said 0:03:21.562,0:03:25.696 to someone, or to Montesquieu, or to Rousseau, if you had said 0:03:25.696,0:03:32.290 to any political thinker of the 18th, 17th, 16th century... or even back 2000, 2500 years, if you had said 0:03:32.290,0:03:36.146 to someone, a political person: "election equals democracy", he would have said: "This guy's not feeling well, is he?" 0:03:36.146,0:03:42.306 Everyone knew that election was aristocratic. By definition ! 0:03:42.306,0:03:47.786 Election, to elect, that means to choose! It's true, isn't it ? Electing is choosing; 0:03:47.786,0:03:52.346 and choosing, you're not going to choose the worst: you'll choose the best. By definition, 0:03:52.346,0:03:58.792 you choose the best. And the best, that's aristos. Aristos means the best (in greek). Aristos, it's... 0:03:58.792,0:04:06.877 Aristocracy, it's the power of the best. So... it's not surprising ! It's not surprising 0:04:06.877,0:04:13.671 that with a regime founded on an election, you have an aristoractic regime at startion. Meaning, at start, 0:04:13.671,0:04:18.433 you effectively choose the best ones and then, slowly but surely, there are biases, and we get off track 0:04:18.433,0:04:23.193 and don't elect the best anymore, we start electing a small cast... Aristotle at the time said: "All aristocracies 0:04:23.193,0:04:29.972 deviate, degrade, degenerate into an oligarchy." That means that power goes to a small number of people, 0:04:29.972,0:04:35.912 but not the best. If we manage to... And this we can maybe achieve together... It's...great indeed. 0:04:35.912,0:04:38.352 Really interesting because we could maybe manage to imagine a better system 0:04:38.352,0:04:44.952 than democracy ! An aristocratic system so well knitted, locked down, thought through that we would always have the best ! 0:04:44.952,0:04:48.639 The best between us all ! And they should prove every day 0:04:48.639,0:04:52.592 that they are the best! And when they aren't the best anymore, they get fired! Then we only have the best, 0:04:52.592,0:04:57.231 and no longer inherited aristocracy, because that's just a mortal drift. 0:04:57.231,0:05:01.746 When aristocracy is inherited, it's no longer the best! The child of the best one... 0:05:01.746,0:05:04.962 Or maybe the best one, he was good at warfare... 0:05:04.962,0:05:08.596 We judged that he was the best, alright, but his child, there is simply no reason 0:05:08.596,0:05:11.836 that he also be the best... When it starts to be inherited, the system efficiency collapses. 0:05:11.836,0:05:15.316 But we could imagine... I'll try to stay brief about aristocracy, 0:05:15.316,0:05:20.716 but keep it in mind somewhere. I am, almost against my initiative, 0:05:20.716,0:05:25.556 through conferences, the one who defends the random draw and even the purest form of Athenian Democracy, 0:05:25.556,0:05:29.796 to show that it's possible, that it wasn't a bad system, and that there are many things to learn from it. 0:05:29.796,0:05:33.556 But I am just as able to imagine an improved representative government, 0:05:33.556,0:05:38.725 or even an aristocracy, why not ? I'm sure I'm going to make you jump 0:05:38.725,0:05:42.254 at the idea, but I'm pushing the limits just to show you that I am open to ideas. 0:05:42.254,0:05:47.318 Why not even consider a royal system ! But not a royal system like with Versaille, 0:05:47.318,0:05:52.547 because that was just awful, but a royal system with a royal constitution 0:05:52.547,0:05:57.678 where we have thought things completly through... us ! Everyone, not just some elite cast. 0:05:57.678,0:06:00.924 They musn't write the rules for themselves. But if the People 0:06:00.924,0:06:09.914 invent sturdy rules, clever enough so that the king - because the People want a king - never crosses the line, 0:06:09.914,0:06:14.837 and when he does, we get rid of him and put another one instead. 0:06:14.837,0:06:20.798 That doesn't bother me at all. What I'm interested in, what I'm looking for, is a sturdy regime 0:06:20.798,0:06:26.789 that can last, that protects us from abuse of power. Democracy just happens to work really well 0:06:26.789,0:06:32.222 on that point. I really must get to talk about the... We'll soon put up a schematic, 0:06:32.222,0:06:35.566 and I'll talk to you about Athenian Democacy; and there are many useful things 0:06:35.566,0:06:38.353 against oligarchy in Athenian Democracy. Yes ? 0:06:38.353,0:06:40.721 - If it was so good, why did they move on to something else ? Did they abandon it or... 0:06:40.721,0:06:45.551 - Ah ! That's one of the objections. I can answer that one because it's really short 0:06:45.551,0:06:51.216 There will be objections of course, but most are: if it was so swell, 0:06:51.216,0:06:56.464 we would have carried on. So wait, if it was great for the 99%, it wasn't for the 1%. 0:06:56.464,0:07:01.340 And the 1%, they are rich. They were the philosophers, the Platos, the Aristotles, 0:07:01.340,0:07:05.334 all those people talked about democracy, described democracy, but Hated democracy. 0:07:05.334,0:07:10.721 Plato, Aristotle and almost all philosophers ! Only the sophists 0:07:10.721,0:07:15.365 actually liked democracy and taught people to... taught them how to speak, taught them how to 0:07:15.365,0:07:21.263 debate and defend. They were democrats and made people pay for their teaching. 0:07:21.263,0:07:25.443 Plato actually made fun of it. He mocked: "Yes, those are the ones teaching people how to speak, 0:07:25.443,0:07:29.808 teach them how to lie ?" No, they didn't teach them how to lie; that was just Plato 0:07:29.808,0:07:33.198 saying that because he didn't like democracy. Sophists taught how to express oneself, expressing 0:07:33.198,0:07:37.563 ideas and defending your point of view, by putting your arguments in the correct light... 0:07:37.563,0:07:44.854 And most philosophers were against democracy. So for 200 years, 0:07:44.854,0:07:48.186 the Athenians were armed. This is not just some detail, they weren't just armed, they were armed 0:07:48.186,0:07:50.902 and they were soldiers. That is equiped and know how to use their weapons. 0:07:50.902,0:07:54.691 And to me, it's one of the soul conditions. I'm very sorry, 0:07:54.691,0:07:57.106 I am myself a pacifist and unarmed; I am completly naked in that sens, 0:07:57.106,0:08:01.982 I don't have a weapon... So I was educated that way and I was completly... modeled to fit 0:08:01.982,0:08:06.115 and now I'm fifty and I get the feeling that I might have been cheated here. 0:08:06.115,0:08:11.502 Really! Because you just keep on seeing unarmed people getting butchered on a regular basis! 0:08:11.502,0:08:16.146 You have to listen to Guillemin! I won't talk more on the subject, but those aren't words in vain. 0:08:16.146,0:08:21.342 There are periods where things are calm, and just when we are convinced we need to stop 0:08:21.342,0:08:26.742 oppression by saying: "Enough Oppression !" Those who aren't armed end up regretting it dearly. 0:08:26.742,0:08:31.053 Enough on that subject; it's an interesting source of debate, because many people... 0:08:31.053,0:08:36.998 progressive people, of the left wing and who have said no to weapons: 0:08:36.998,0:08:40.862 "It must be non-violent, absolutely" And when I say what I just said, they answer "What on earth is he saying ?!" 0:08:40.862,0:08:44.474 And I know, yes, I was like that myself before... but I'm starting to think that... 0:08:44.474,0:08:49.542 Enough, it's a debate! Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll see, we'll talk about it. Anyhow, those people 0:08:49.542,0:08:54.542 who were armed managed for over 200 years to impose democracy by getting rid of oligarchic systems. 0:08:54.542,0:08:57.782 And when one came along, they just finished it brutally or they put... 0:08:57.782,0:09:01.102 Well they didn't brutally end it everytime, they could also ostracise it; we'll see, it's a procedure. 0:09:01.102,0:09:04.861 So they got rid of it, but they were busy with it, kept watch, they had their white blood cells. 0:09:04.861,0:09:12.756 So for 200 years the philosophers methodically wrote hundreds of pages 0:09:12.756,0:09:23.205 to explain that the heart, the central element, the sine qua non condition of democracy, 0:09:23.205,0:09:29.942 was the random draw. Perfectly indentified by the philosophers, and that's my explanation. 0:09:29.942,0:09:35.062 Athenians, they made... well we could also plan for it in our own democracy, 0:09:35.062,0:09:38.502 we should fear that threat: that is that they had jealous neighbours or enemies around them, 0:09:38.502,0:09:42.422 so the rich actually made alliance with outsiders. The army of Philippe of Macedonia became a monster, 0:09:42.422,0:09:48.114 and it became invicincible for them. The ended up loosing the war. But that's secondary, 0:09:48.114,0:09:51.458 it's not a necessary conclusion, it's not... It's not an obligation: it could have not happened. 0:09:51.458,0:09:55.126 It's contigent. Anyhow, it just happens they lost the war. They lost a war 0:09:55.126,0:10:01.767 when the ideological matter, the intellectual basis for it never to happen again was there. 0:10:01.767,0:10:08.269 They had understood. After 200 years, the thieves, the power cravers who had never been able to steal away power 0:10:08.269,0:10:13.052 for 200 years through a random draw... That's my explanation. It's "chouardesc" as I said before. 0:10:13.052,0:10:17.789 I'm not backing what I'm telling you now with a book. Well, it's what I read in books 0:10:17.789,0:10:22.712 that makes me guess this, but it's my explanation. Maybe I'm missing other explanations, surely, 0:10:22.712,0:10:28.749 because I'm not omniscient, evidently. It seems to me that if democracy 0:10:28.749,0:10:37.201 never appeared again, it's because the central process, essential 0:10:37.201,0:10:42.681 - when you'll see the schematic, it will appear that it's essential -, it's central procedure 0:10:42.681,0:10:46.675 had been very correctly identified by the philosophers, who all talked clearly about it. All these philosophers 0:10:46.675,0:10:55.777 point very clearly to random draw as the ground rule for democracy. 0:10:55.777,0:10:58.888 And if you take out random draw and that you put an election instead, it's no longer a democracy. 0:10:58.888,0:11:01.768 - My comment is not to say that it wasn't a good thing, my comment 0:11:01.768,0:11:05.994 is to try and make you understand that it takes a lot of effort... 0:11:05.994,0:11:07.851 - Yes, yes I know that it will ask for a lot of efforts, I'm quite sure of it... 0:11:07.851,0:11:10.685 - ...and that human nature maybe tends to go towards where we are now... 0:11:10.685,0:11:12.054 - Yes, yes, yes absolutely! 0:11:12.054,0:11:13.494 - ... and that it has always been that way, because we are... 0:11:13.494,0:11:17.163 - So maybe you're right, I hope not. So I'll repeat with the microphone 0:11:17.163,0:11:23.850 so that all can hear. The objection points that it's no about saying democracy is bad. 0:11:23.850,0:11:29.078 It's more to say that since it never appeared again, maybe it's 0:11:29.078,0:11:33.973 in human nature to not be in democracy and to be more in an oligarchy, and that it strives for... 0:11:33.973,0:11:37.363 So I really hope that you are wrong. Maybe you're right, I know that. 0:11:37.363,0:11:42.758 And I know, I know well, that it's not about imposing democracy. 0:11:42.758,0:11:45.490 If we have... It's like in communism, if you impose communism, 0:11:45.490,0:11:47.958 it just ends in a blood bath... Every time we impose it, it ends in an utter blood bath ! 0:11:47.958,0:11:53.678 We'll have democracy only when we'll have it. First, when we'll stop understanding 0:11:53.678,0:11:57.438 "democracy" as it's opposite. So we first must learn what we're actually talking about, so we must absolutely 0:11:57.438,0:12:02.115 put the words back in their place, and that we want to ! We must have weighed the pro's and 0:12:02.115,0:12:06.620 the con's. It's going to ask quite a lot of work from you. It's going to bring us more protection 0:12:06.620,0:12:10.998 against abuse of power and injustices, but it's going to ask a lot of work from us. 0:12:10.998,0:12:14.515 Are we ready for it ? Do we want it ? Have we been enough to ask 0:12:14.515,0:12:22.478 and convincing enough to get the mass to agree and adopt it ? 0:12:22.478,0:12:26.218 It's not because we're not there yet that we'll never be. I repeat, Internet 0:12:26.218,0:12:30.198 is a tool that let's us discover. 0:12:30.198,0:12:35.691 We would have never met before Internet. Internet makes connections and group progression 0:12:35.691,0:12:40.568 infinitly quicker... it makes possible and so quickly that it let's us have hope and dream. 0:12:40.568,0:12:45.318 Because there are many people who are able to weigh pro's/con's and draw a conclusion: 0:12:45.318,0:12:49.038 "Alright, I'll work a little more but at the same time, I'll get rid of parasite bankers... 0:12:49.038,0:12:53.896 And so I'll free up thousands of billions of ressources ! I am going to need 0:12:53.896,0:12:58.122 to work a lot less when I'll have taken the control of money creation again. " It's a subject... 0:12:58.122,0:13:01.678 It's all connection, you see. I'll talk less about it tonight, but you should look at other conferences. 0:13:01.678,0:13:08.358 They're on the Internet. But what I'll say on money creation is not something that has nothing to do with this. 0:13:08.358,0:13:12.816 It's completly intwined like two organs of a same body. 0:13:12.816,0:13:19.318 We won't get money creation back without a Constitution, without writing ourselves our own Constitution. 0:13:19.318,0:13:27.445 And we won't have prosperity and a bit of work... with a reasonable amount of work, by working 0:13:27.445,0:13:32.042 two times less, maybe two days a week for example ; we won't achieve a prosperity 0:13:32.042,0:13:36.154 with an intellectual emancipation... If we work less, we'd be able to learn philosophy, 0:13:36.154,0:13:42.909 or musique, or love... many things that at the moment we do little of, or quite badly, or not at all 0:13:42.909,0:13:51.361 because we're dumb struck by work! But you know, productivity has quadrupled, fivefolded, tenfolded 0:13:51.361,0:13:56.795 since the 2nd World War. Productivity, our work has become more and more efficient, 0:13:56.795,0:14:02.234 but in enormous proportions ! In less than 40 years. Do we work less ? 0:14:02.234,0:14:07.197 Non, we work the same... almost... give or take 30 min /week. We work the same 0:14:07.197,0:14:13.002 but because we have parasites on our back. I'm saying it quite harshly, but when I'm listening to you... 0:14:13.002,0:14:16.914 Well I could call them the people of Versailles, like they used to say during the Commune period, those who were... 0:14:16.914,0:14:21.919 those who formed a group around the Commune of Paris [just after the French Revolution]... so the rich, in short, 0:14:21.919,0:14:24.891 those who had been caught... no, not those who had been caught... the rich who had left 0:14:24.891,0:14:28.281 power ; because the Communards didn't take the power. I'm leaving my thread again. 0:14:28.281,0:14:34.179 So the people of Versailles, in reality, it's the people of power, those who made people beleive they were of the folk 0:14:34.179,0:14:40.954 and had left and deserted Paris. They were afraid, the army didn't obey, and they said: "Oh la la, 0:14:40.954,0:14:44.714 the army is not obeying, we have to leave!" And they went to Versailles. There, they created 0:14:44.714,0:14:56.609 a huge army to come back and butcher the Communards. 0:14:56.609,0:15:00.603 So... yes, yes, maybe you're right, maybe it's won't come to be because we want it, 0:15:00.603,0:15:06.554 but it seems to me that the enthusiasm that I find around this idea is growing over the last year, 0:15:06.554,0:15:12.492 It's moving forward, it seems. Many people see... they see 0:15:12.492,0:15:17.322 what a real democracy is, who discover the lessons from Athens 0:15:17.322,0:15:19.922 We won't take everything from Athens. There are things we don't want from Athens, obviously, 0:15:19.922,0:15:24.034 but there are things that are "sexy", attractive, interesting in Athens, so... 0:15:24.034,0:15:29.874 I find that there is a novation, something new that gives us 0:15:29.874,0:15:35.154 a possible perspective and in the end, doesn't make me fight a lost battle. 0:15:35.154,0:15:37.954 - In the case of Athens... 0:15:37.954,0:15:38.754 - Yes ? 0:15:38.754,0:15:44.234 - In the case of Athens, what was the percentage of people living in Athens 0:15:44.234,0:15:48.901 who were likely to take decisions ? 0:15:48.901,0:15:53.007 - That's going to be a hard one... What was the percentage of Athenians who were likely 0:15:53.007,0:15:56.360 to take a decision ? Are you talking about the people living in Athens or are you talking about citizens ? 0:15:56.360,0:15:58.382 - I'm talking about living human beings, of course. 0:15:58.382,0:16:04.697 - Ah...no well...Why ? 0:16:04.697,0:16:06.929 Sorry? Well yes but... 0:16:06.929,0:16:12.195 - ... living people who are less human beings than others ? 0:16:12.195,0:16:13.648 - Well of course. - Women, slaves... 0:16:13.648,0:16:15.970 - Women, slaves, dogs, 0:16:15.970,0:16:18.013 cats, children, strangers, there are... 0:16:18.013,0:16:20.428 - We've understood each other: we're talking about living human beings. 0:16:20.428,0:16:25.815 - Ah you see... I'd put animals in there too. But that's a debate, 0:16:25.815,0:16:34.791 as there are debats on: what is defined by the People ? I hope you don't imagine 0:16:34.791,0:16:40.214 that I'm a slave trader or a phallocrate. I don't imagine for a second a democracy 0:16:40.214,0:16:45.276 without women or with slaves. Don't go imagining otherwise! It's almost an hour now that I'm talking, 0:16:45.276,0:16:50.013 you've understood what I meant, it's not... What I'm interested in Athens, 0:16:50.013,0:16:55.818 it's what was in the folk at the time. And you must understand that it's not reasonable 0:16:55.818,0:17:01.576 to judge, to juge in the terms of value judgement, a folk of 2500 years ago with our own values 0:17:01.576,0:17:05.751 of today! That's an anachronism. It's a mistake, we're doing something 0:17:05.751,0:17:11.111 that doesn't make sense. When we'll be, us, today, judged by our grand, grand, grand 0:17:11.111,0:17:15.229 grand children, who will have long stopped eating meat and killing animals ; 0:17:15.229,0:17:19.271 they'll just make artificial meat that will be a lot better than the meat we know today, 0:17:19.271,0:17:22.671 and by far ! And they won't need to kill animals at all. Animals 0:17:22.671,0:17:26.732 will be their friends, their brothers, they will maybe even know how to talk with them... they will have learned, 0:17:26.732,0:17:32.723 finaly, to talk with animals and they will talk with them. And when they'll know, when they will judge us today, 0:17:32.723,0:17:36.810 we who ate then, who put them in nazi concentration camps! 0:17:36.810,0:17:42.290 That's not an exageration, it's real torture that we impose on animals 0:17:42.290,0:17:47.630 to be able to eat them cheap. When they will judge us, they'll say: "But they were, 0:17:47.630,0:17:52.460 they were monsters!" Are you a monster ? Non! But you must be judged 0:17:52.460,0:17:57.011 with the criterias of your era. I'm saying this so that you understand, but I'm sure that you would have done it 0:17:57.011,0:18:02.863 without me. At the time of Athens, all the populations in the world were also slave traders. 0:18:02.863,0:18:06.485 All the people around the world ill treated their women. By the way, this treatment, this bad behavior towards women, 0:18:06.485,0:18:10.107 it's still going on today. I don't know if this has passed by you that women 0:18:10.107,0:18:15.076 are still not treated like men, not at all. And just a few years back, 0:18:15.076,0:18:19.349 they didn't have the right to vote! So that's... Let's say that the Athenians weren't the only barbarians 0:18:19.349,0:18:25.014 so we should be afraid. No, it's just the people of that era. It was... there weren't any women 0:18:25.014,0:18:27.104 or slaves or métèques - métèques, that's what they called strangers - all couldn't vote 0:18:27.104,0:18:30.727 What I want to say is that it's not what's interesting for me, 0:18:30.727,0:18:36.299 and evidently not what I want to duplicate. This is a trial... and I know you're not putting me on trial for it. 0:18:36.299,0:18:40.756 I understand that, but it's a trial that our elected representatives do all the time! 0:18:40.756,0:18:43.198 They say: "But Mr. Chouard, you are defending a slave trading regime! 0:18:43.198,0:18:49.638 Are you a slave trader?" Non, I'm not a slave trader. I say: "Those were criterias, 0:18:49.638,0:18:54.958 caracteristics of that era who weren't necessary to democracy. Democracy 0:18:54.958,0:19:03.836 however, at that time, there were 99% of poor and 1% or rich. Aha ! That's a stricking 0:19:03.836,0:19:07.041 ressemblance! Ah yes, because that, in all the countries of the world and in every era, 0:19:07.041,0:19:16.358 it's a common situation, the 99% / 1% already existed. "Ah, that already existed! So what ?" Well, 0:19:16.358,0:19:21.298 for 200 years, those people...alright I know, they didn't have women, there weren't the... 0:19:21.298,0:19:29.518 ...but listen ! In the citizens, there were 99% of poor and 1% of rich. Who ruled for over 200 years ? 0:19:29.518,0:19:35.838 And during those 200 years, the rich existed. They existed and lived their lives of rich people, 0:19:35.838,0:19:39.038 they lived really well! They lived with a lot more comfort than all the others. 0:19:39.038,0:19:44.198 They had more slaves, they lived better than the rest, but for 200 years of random draw. 0:19:44.198,0:19:54.838 Those who ruled were the 99%! For 200 years, the 1% never ruled. 0:19:54.838,0:20:01.358 They lived, they lived well, they lived richly, they lived amongst others, 0:20:01.358,0:20:07.320 but they didn't have political power. The random draw managed for 200 years to... listen closely, 0:20:07.320,0:20:11.238 it's my way of saying it, but it's also why I'm giving so much to understand it, 0:20:11.238,0:20:14.982 to be sure that it works or doesn't; and that's what keeps me interested because that's what is transposable. 0:20:14.982,0:20:21.438 So for 200 years, the random draw permitted human beings of that era who made up the society... 0:20:21.438,0:20:24.270 So "smaller" than us today, but it would work just as well on a bigger scale today! 0:20:24.270,0:20:33.094 The random draw let them desynchronise, or clearly seperate economical worth 0:20:33.094,0:20:39.084 - so just wealth - of the political worth, of the political power. People who were poor, 0:20:39.084,0:20:44.518 who worked in the fields, when to vote the laws. And at the same time, people who were living 0:20:44.518,0:20:50.927 in palaces, couldn't vote the laws. They went to the assembly like everyone else, 0:20:50.927,0:20:53.806 but they weren't many, they couldn't sway the laws. 0:20:53.806,0:20:55.478 - Were they excluded or... 0:20:55.478,0:20:57.758 - No, they weren't excluded, they were citizens but since they weren't many, 0:20:57.758,0:21:00.215 they couldn't decide. Yes ? 0:21:00.215,0:21:03.394 - In a random draw, you can have a real idiot. 0:21:03.394,0:21:07.922 - You can have a real idiot or a backstabber. Yes. - We'll talk about it afterwards, if you want... - 0:21:07.922,0:21:11.962 Yes, yes, surely yes ! By drawing randomly to have an... 0:21:11.962,0:21:14.609 - It's not because you'll have a farmer that you'll have an idiot. 0:21:14.609,0:21:18.236 - Yes of course ! No no, this is a misunderstanding. Give me... please let me have 0:21:18.236,0:21:22.516 a second so that I can explain, but you'll see that I have a perfect answer for that, you'll see! 0:21:22.516,0:21:26.869 A sturdy answer that you'll be able to use yourselves when you'll leave to... 0:21:26.869,0:21:31.234 You'll see! It's a powerful objection, surely; it comes to mind to all of us! 0:21:31.234,0:21:33.996 "Well, if we draw an idiot! Come on! Or a jerk!" 0:21:33.996,0:21:43.587 There are many answers to that. So I'll finish on that... Yes ? Sorry. 0:21:43.587,0:21:48.696 - Yes... In Athens, it's all nice and swell, but there were maybe 40 000 citizens. 0:21:48.696,0:21:52.318 - Ah that's another objection ; it's the number. They were 40 000 citizens and today 0:21:52.318,0:21:56.596 we are 40 million. Ah Mr. Chouard, you are trying to drive us... 0:21:56.596,0:21:59.127 - They were capable of assembling in one place... 0:21:59.127,0:22:02.009 - ... to gather in one place. How do you do to assemble 40 million people ? 0:22:02.009,0:22:09.119 I have an answer for that too, but I'll answer it after, in order. 0:22:09.119,0:22:13.472 So no, no, those are objections and I have no intention of eluding them. I swear 0:22:13.472,0:22:18.530 that I won't avoid them, or even cheat with any of your objections. We'll treat them very correctly. Yes ? 0:22:19.598,0:22:21.595 - Someone who masters the tools, too, someone... 0:22:21.595,0:22:23.731 ...Communication, there must be knowledge too... 0:22:23.731,0:22:24.613 - ... that there be knowledge... 0:22:24.613,0:22:25.821 - ... and diplomas... 0:22:25.821,0:22:29.118 - Popopopop ! Let's talk, let's talk ! - I call them that way but maybe... - He must be competent 0:22:29.118,0:22:37.517 - ...that they have knowledge recognised by others... - They must be competent. - Competent... 0:22:37.517,0:22:40.863 - Another objection noted. No but this is great, realy great ! We have our objections! 0:22:40.863,0:22:42.953 - Words are words, so "diploma" I don't have anything else but... 0:22:42.953,0:22:48.348 - Yes, yes of course! I didn't say the objection was a bad one, it's valid and very interesting 0:22:48.348,0:22:56.548 and we must talk about it ! We must discuss. One of two things: Either it's solid and irrefutable, 0:22:56.548,0:23:01.548 and in that case we can just stop debating, because it's true, you're right, the whole thing is then shattered, 0:23:01.548,0:23:07.948 there. An objection showing that it's not possible, that it doesn't work. 0:23:07.948,0:23:14.828 It's just serious. [br]Or the objection is a new idea, 0:23:14.828,0:23:21.988 a first idea, and then yes, there's this, and yes, there's this too, and that... The Athenians... 0:23:21.988,0:23:26.988 So I'll answer globally. I'll answer globally because there are other objections in the line 0:23:26.988,0:23:31.548 that you haven't thought of yet and that will come to your mind 0:23:31.548,0:23:36.359 when you'll leave. I'll answer and I will give you an answer 0:23:36.359,0:23:42.489 to almost all the objections; maybe not concerning the number of people but it's worth for the others 0:23:42.489,0:23:50.569 And it's sturdy. The Athenians were like you and me, they had the same fears as we do. 0:23:50.569,0:23:56.468 They weren't insane! They weren't stupid because it was 2500 years ago. They were just as smart as we are 0:23:56.468,0:24:03.908 and they were a lot more training in politics as we are. I mean they practiced politics, 0:24:03.908,0:24:06.591 they knew what they were talking about, they knew the risks. 0:24:06.591,0:24:13.511 And those people, well aware, who wouldn't have let such a danger slip past them: 0:24:13.511,0:24:17.748 "We're going to randomly draw an idiot. What do we do ?" They wouldn't have let that slip past them and do nothing about it. 0:24:17.748,0:24:23.548 Those people, those Athenians, for 200... 200 years, that's really long, ey. It's not two years, 0:24:23.548,0:24:28.588 it's not twenty years, it's not a hundred. 200 years is very long ! 0:24:28.588,0:24:31.908 For 200 years, they still randomly drew. 0:24:31.908,0:24:40.828 - And during those 200 years, did they consider, like you do, that the political instrument 0:24:40.828,0:24:45.833 it's almost a goal or was it a mean? If for 200 years 0:24:45.833,0:24:51.828 they worked with such a political system, that it let in place all the social unfairness... 0:24:51.828,0:24:55.708 - They didn't feel like they had social unfairness. Yes ? 0:24:55.708,0:24:56.746 - Ah they didn't feel like...ah yes... 0:24:56.746,0:24:59.904 - Well yes. Remember, the people of that time, well... No but that's ... 0:24:59.904,0:25:02.628 - Athens for 200 years, it was a great city... 0:25:02.628,0:25:03.434 - Yes! 0:25:03.434,0:25:06.628 - A political system, it's an instrument, not a... 0:25:06.628,0:25:08.031 - Yes, it's an instrument, absolutely. 0:25:08.031,0:25:12.118 - It's an instrument for making life better for most people... 0:25:12.118,0:25:12.954 - Absolutely 0:25:12.954,0:25:15.462 - To make sure to reduce social unfairness, for example... 0:25:15.462,0:25:21.780 - Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And by the way if you... I'll just ask you to beleive me 0:25:21.780,0:25:26.970 before that I prove it to you, but it seems to me that what I'm struggling for, that is 0:25:26.970,0:25:31.732 to institutionalise a real democracy, a modern democracy, that is one where 0:25:31.732,0:25:35.810 we would have women, we wouldn't have slaves. If we manage 0:25:35.810,0:25:38.550 to put in place a true democracy, that is that we manage to understand 0:25:38.550,0:25:41.708 why we have not achieved this before; and I beleive that it's because we have given up 0:25:41.708,0:25:45.052 on the constitutional process. And I beleive that if we manager to create a real democracy, 0:25:45.052,0:25:50.903 I beleive that we will be able to solve many social injustices 0:25:50.903,0:25:56.430 that we are forced to bare with today. I beleive that marxistes, anarchistes 0:25:56.430,0:26:01.259 progressistes in general, guys who are a lot more ...a lot more fierce 0:26:01.259,0:26:09.015 on... We want justice. We want Kropotkine. We want social justice; 0:26:09.015,0:26:15.888 I beleive that those people should... I really don't feel like I am in opposition with them. 0:26:15.888,0:26:20.300 That is because I beleive that it's going to work. If we manage to... 0:26:20.300,0:26:28.520 The political system that we are now... refining, balancing by saying: 0:26:28.520,0:26:32.354 "We must watch out again this power so that it's not abused of, that it doesn't become a tyranny, 0:26:32.354,0:26:39.674 that it doesn't become..." This watchsmith's precaution that no power be able to abuse it's power, 0:26:39.674,0:26:45.394 that's a democracy! It's a system where we are able to protect ourselves... 0:26:45.394,0:26:49.954 It must be a moderate democracy, because the assembly must not be able to squash; 0:26:49.954,0:26:55.474 the majority must not be able to squash the minority, for example. So we must thing about the mechanisms 0:26:55.474,0:27:01.834 that will also defend the minorities. I am not at all... I am not mad, I'm looking, I'm searching... 0:27:01.834,0:27:06.194 I'm not looking to put in place a system that is going to have the name democracy because it's just called democracy, 0:27:06.194,0:27:08.954 because it's just pretty in that way, because I like what they had in Athens. No, not at all! 0:27:08.954,0:27:17.594 My thread, it's reducing... I know that we'll never get to the end completly... 0:27:17.594,0:27:21.434 I'm not full of illusions...I know that we won't manage to go to the end 0:27:21.434,0:27:26.114 of social injustices, there will always be there, but my objective is to reduce them drasticly. 0:27:26.114,0:27:33.643 And to outlaw abuse of power. So we're on the side, don't misunderstand, I... 0:27:33.643,0:27:40.120 I'll just ask you as a personal favor to not... In a controversy, it's Rabelais 0:27:40.120,0:27:45.057 that I should have... It's not Rabelais, it's Montaigne that I should have brought, who in "Essays"... 0:27:45.057,0:27:52.766 describes in chapter 8 of book 3 "The art of conversation". 0:27:52.766,0:27:56.992 You should buy "Essays" in the version translated in modern french, otherwise you just don't understand it. 0:27:56.992,0:28:00.846 In old french, you stop at every word, it's incomprehensible the "Essays", whereas translated 0:28:00.846,0:28:05.397 by Lanly, it's beautiful. You'll see, it's linked to what we were saying... Yes I know, I'm leaving my thread again, 0:28:05.397,0:28:12.410 but it's useful, you'll see. In the "Essays", Montaigne observes himself 0:28:12.410,0:28:16.636 with such honesty that what he finds in himself, also helps us understand ourselves. 0:28:16.636,0:28:21.326 And when he talks about our conversations, he says: "In most 0:28:21.326,0:28:27.688 conversations, by the game of voice tone rising and of our egos, we are driven, 0:28:27.688,0:28:33.586 against our will, to try and prove the other is wrong and we are right, 0:28:33.586,0:28:39.717 whereas normally we should, if things were ideal, 0:28:39.717,0:28:46.951 we should both search for truth..." Phrase it differently if it comes as a shock 0:28:46.951,0:28:51.711 because you consider that there is but one truth, that there is... but here we're searching 0:28:51.711,0:28:55.551 and trying to make the less mistakes possible. So if we search and make as little mistakes as possible, 0:28:55.551,0:29:00.191 when the other points out a mistake, we should be happy! Alright, we lost because we were wrong, 0:29:00.191,0:29:03.833 and he was right, but globally we've made progress since we have found a mistake 0:29:03.833,0:29:10.427 that we won't repeat agaion. So I will ask this favor of you, it is to try 0:29:10.427,0:29:19.071 to not take our controversies, our short-lived disagreements, like a verbal joust 0:29:19.071,0:29:24.173 where we are going to win, the other loose, but more like a common research. 0:29:24.173,0:29:27.006 I'm looking for something, I'm not going to preach the mass. 0:29:27.006,0:29:32.115 I'm not going to say something "ready made", a revealed truth. I'm thinking this through, 0:29:32.115,0:29:37.548 but I'm not finished yet. I'm still finding many ideas: "Great, the Iroquois there, recently"; 0:29:37.548,0:29:43.748 It's a gold mine, a mine of things that we can integrate in our process. So I'm searching if you will. 0:29:43.748,0:29:50.696 So I'm completly interested by your objections, but don't take it as one of us 0:29:50.696,0:29:59.833 is going to be right and the other wrong. You see what I mean ? In my opinion, we will win 0:29:59.833,0:30:06.613 by trying to find together a system that the thieves of power won't want 0:30:06.613,0:30:12.603 and will never give us, and that we alone, those who have renounced to power, who want 0:30:12.603,0:30:18.466 social justice, but who want to avoid abuse of power, but who don't desire power; 0:30:18.466,0:30:24.760 we alone are capable, I beleive, to invent a regime, a mechanism, a clockwork system 0:30:24.760,0:30:30.789 that will protect us on the long run. That will protect us against social injustice, protect us all. 0:30:30.789,0:30:37.481 So...yes, so... If we have an objection, and I must answer to the objections, 0:30:37.481,0:30:40.499 but maybe we should turn the schematic on so that... 0:30:40.499,0:30:44.273 You'll see that the objections, they'll... I'm going to need... 0:30:44.273,0:30:47.913 - It's not an objection, it's just about Montaigne: I would like to add something, 0:30:47.913,0:30:53.596 The problem is that we often say "virtuous example". When we start to... I beleive that 0:30:53.596,0:30:57.729 for many years the political debate and even, let's say, scientific debates and others, 0:30:57.729,0:31:01.676 have been more turning around the emotional aspect than really the thinking process; we get the distinct impression that 0:31:01.676,0:31:08.178 they are always...that they are never, during the debate, in the other person something 0:31:08.178,0:31:12.172 that we put in common. They are always in contradiction. It's sure that people are used 0:31:12.172,0:31:17.512 to this kind of debate, to this kind of communication, and it's going to be very hard to establish 0:31:17.512,0:31:20.484 a different form of communication other than conflictual communication... 0:31:20.484,0:31:27.456 - It's going to be hard, be we shouldn't renounce. It's true, we have a tendancy ... probably... 0:31:27.456,0:31:32.854 ...boosted by shows... shows that are proposed to us on TV and at the movie theatres, 0:31:32.854,0:31:35.896 where really emotions and violence are constantly there and... 0:31:35.896,0:31:37.127 - ...they never agree... 0:31:37.127,0:31:44.139 - ... and they train us to react with emotion. And when we react under the influence of passion, 0:31:44.139,0:31:48.598 our reason falls back a step. All this is true. But we shouldn't renounce, I beleive that there, 0:31:48.598,0:31:55.424 if we start to discuss, we are going to shed light on such a risk, 0:31:55.424,0:31:59.707 this weakness. Forewarned can be forearmed. Maybe we can defeat it, after all.