1 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit 2 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Fruity, the show where we think that you 3 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 should never live in the closet, Harry, 4 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 even if the woman who created you changes her mind. 5 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you would like to support the show 6 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or perhaps want a little bit more of the 7 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 show, we are on Patreon and by the time 8 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this episode is up, it'll be around the 9 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 same time that I upload March's deep dive 10 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on Patreon, which I do every month 11 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and this month it is on the wokeness of 12 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Sydney Sweeney. The right just figured 13 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 out who Sydney Sweeney is because 14 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they saw her on SNL and they never watched 15 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is 16 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 causing a freakout of epic proportions. 17 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we're going to do a little analysis 18 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of a woman's body, which is something 19 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm fairly new to. 20 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, you know, wish me luck. 21 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Today we are joined, once again, by 22 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 someone I'm honored to call a friend 23 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may 24 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know her online, ContraPoints is, an 25 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ex-philosopher, she is a YouTuber 26 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but I think calling her a YouTuber 27 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is kind of diminutive to her craft. 28 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 She puts out a couple feature film-length 29 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 videos a year that you've probably 30 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 watched but if you haven't, you really 31 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 should go check those out. 32 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 She talks about philosophy, sex and 33 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gender, and capitalism, and twilight. 34 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity. 35 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thank you much for having me back on. 36 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I am excited to be here again. 37 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm honored to be a friend of the show. 38 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm honored to have you as a friend 39 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the show. So, a couple weeks ago 40 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a 41 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 little Holocaust denial. 42 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 She does Holocaust denial a little from 43 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 time to time, (laughter) yeah. 44 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings 45 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wasn't always on Twitter denying 46 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that, uh, queer people were persecuted in 47 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings 48 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was a universally beloved children's 49 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 author who taught every kid that there 50 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was magic inside of them no matter how 51 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cast out they may feel. Today, though, 52 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how would you characterize her position 53 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in the culture today? 54 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, her position in the culture is 55 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of weirdly split, right, cause on 56 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the one hand, there is her continuing 57 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 legacy as the author of the wizard books 58 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and on the other hand, there's like 59 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 almost her entire public persona, that 60 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which we mostly experience through Twitter 61 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is basically obsessive bigotry 62 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 towards trans people. That's become 63 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 sort of her definitive thing, right? 64 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think that people who don't follow this 65 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of don't understand the extent of it 66 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because, you know, I don't know, people 67 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 throw around like all kinds of accusations 68 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on Twitter, so it's easy to think that 69 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this is some kind of internet drama 70 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 blown out of proportion. But what you're 71 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 missing is that if you have not been 72 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 73 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for the last, at this point, we're 74 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talking about four or five years, which 75 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is a long time. Like, she's basically used 76 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 her platform more often than not to do 77 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans-bashing. There's a reason why that 78 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this gets talked about so much because, 79 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, she's one of the most famous 80 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 authors in the world with an enormous 81 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 platform, and she's just using it 82 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 constantly to target this small and, 83 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, already besieged, minority of people 84 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who are facing, like, all kinds of, like, 85 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 legislative and cultural backlash in 86 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really 87 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 devastating (chuckle) that an author 88 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that, that's this influential is also, 89 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, this obsessively devoted to 90 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 persecute, you know, to contributing 91 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the persecution of this group of 92 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people, who's already so harassed. 93 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But it's also, I don't know, it's also 94 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in 95 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's own right it's kind of like another 96 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 reason I feel like we're drawn to this 97 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly 98 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fascinating. How does this happen? 99 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, how do we go from, like, the 100 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Gryffindor common room and, you know, 101 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged 102 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rants about the transexuals. It's weird. 103 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It, it is weird and I think also, I mean, 104 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 105 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right now and scroll through her feed, 106 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it is literal years of talking every 107 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 single day, almost exclusively, about 108 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transgender people, for years. 109 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which I think is the type of behavior 110 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we associate, with like boomer facebook 111 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 moms, and then I guess in a sense, she 112 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of would have been that, if she 113 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hadn't become a billionaire and one of 114 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the most famous and beloved children's 115 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 authors of all time. But she is those 116 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 things and the idea of her behaving the 117 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 way, like, our homophobic aunt does 118 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or whatever, but like from some castle 119 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in the U.K., is just like a very jarring 120 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes 121 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it really well, right, like, it is, like, 122 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post 123 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 except on a platform with millions of 124 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people as the audience. I feel like we 125 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a society, have, like, yet to know how 126 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to deal with this type of thing cause 127 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it. 128 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled 129 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a little bit in some similar forms of 130 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 bigotry with a (inaudible) or even 131 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 larger platform. But I feel like what's 132 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 unique about J.K. Rowling is that 133 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she's, like, single mindedly focused on 134 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans people as this one issue. 135 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Matt) So she wasn't always this way, 136 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 though and what we're gonna do today 137 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is 138 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a valuable case study in the worm hole 139 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that transphobia is. The way that it 140 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling 141 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so many millions of other people 142 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a portal into the broader world 143 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of right-wing ideology that gets pretty 144 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 scary pretty quickly. We're gonna 145 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 try to understand why transphobia, and 146 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think especially when it's cloaked, 147 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 no pun intended, as a progressive feminist 148 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cause and especially effective 149 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gateway into the alt right. One day 150 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you're reminding people that you 151 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just like to be preferred to as a woman 152 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that you are a woman and then, 153 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, the next day you are 154 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 participating in Holocaust denial. It can 155 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases. 156 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin 157 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this story I wanna go back to 2019 158 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the first tweet that I remember 159 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into 160 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the anti-trans movement, which at the 161 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 beginning was very tepid. I am going to 162 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress 163 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 however you please. Call yourself 164 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whatever you like. Sleep with any 165 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 consenting adult who'll have you. 166 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Live your best life in peace and security. 167 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But force women out of their jobs for 168 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 stating that sex is real? Hashtag I 169 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not 170 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a drill." (Matt) So what was the 171 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 context of this one? 172 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) So, the context is that there 173 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was a English consultant named 174 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't 175 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fired but her contract was not 176 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 renewed because she had, like, refused 177 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to use the correct pronouns for a trans 178 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 coworker or something along those lines. 179 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And a lot of so called "gender-critical", 180 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that is "transphobic", people in the U.K. 181 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 decided to turn this into a celebrated 182 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cause, they, you know, rallied behind 183 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this hashtag "I stand with maya". 184 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't 185 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 have to submit to gender ideology by, 186 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, using the correct pronouns 187 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for trans people in the work place or 188 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling 189 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 decided to join this discourse 190 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 officially. She decided to jump in on 191 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the side of people who think that it's 192 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 terribly oppressive to have to use 193 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the correct pronouns for a trans person. 194 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I guess at first, you know, there was 195 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some ambiguity because you could be 196 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe 197 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she just believes in free speech, and she 198 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 thinks that, you know, that people 199 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 shouldn't be fired for having different 200 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 opinions." (inaudible) okay, like, at 201 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 first you could sort of plausibly think 202 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that maybe, given the benefit of the 203 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 doubt, that's why she was getting 204 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 involved in this. But, like, to people who 205 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of know the pattern that 206 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transphobia takes place, we all pretty 207 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 much knew that, "Oh, okay she really 208 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is transphobic behind the scenes". 209 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, there is no way that you would 210 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -go decide to die on this hill unless - Matt: Hmm. 211 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you already were. At least that's what I 212 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling 213 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was at her most dangerous in 2019 and 214 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in 2020 because of the stuff she was 215 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 saying seems kind of plausible and 216 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 reasonable to the average person, you 217 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know. And so, there's this kind of like 218 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 clever selection of which topics to 219 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 get behind, right, instead of just, 220 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't know, calling trans women "men" 221 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's 222 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 defending the "right" of people to not 223 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 use the correct pronouns if they don't 224 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 agree, right?. (inaudible) this people 225 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of hedge in this way, like, when 226 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they have a kind of like bigoted opinion 227 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 instead of just stating it out, right. 228 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They sort of defend their right to have 229 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -that opinion. - Matt: Mhmm. 230 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, that was very much with this thing 231 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like 232 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she's not saying something sort of 233 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 directly transphobic, but she is kind of 234 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 indirectly getting there by being like, 235 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "I am going to publicly champion Maya's 236 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right to be transphobic. " 237 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Matt) I feel like in the early days 238 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she did so much of this plausible, 239 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 deniability stuff where it's like, you 240 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know, "I'm just saying sex is real". 241 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Right? And the average person who 242 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 isn't, like, a terminally online queer 243 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real, 244 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whatever, like, who cares." 245 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You know? It's like not a big deal. 246 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective 247 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 early on at kind of like deciding what 248 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it was that she thought people 249 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were mad about, right? And so she 250 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 framed the conversation, "Oh here's why 251 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting 252 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 backlash because I said quote on quote 253 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems 254 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like if you believe her account of what 255 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people are mad about, then it sounds like 256 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 everyone whose mad is unreasonable 257 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because they are mad at her for taking 258 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this kind of - taking what? An abstract, 259 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 philosophical position about the 260 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 metaphysics of biological sex? Like, 261 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is that what people are mad about? 262 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No, right? It's of course not that 263 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because she is intervening in this 264 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 social and political debate, right, 265 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on the side that wants trans people 266 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 functionally not to exist in public 267 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 life, or not to be acknowledged in 268 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 public life. So, that is what people 269 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are mad about, right? But early on, 270 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think she was able to kind of 271 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 frame her position as being this 272 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, I don't know, almost philosophical 273 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 position about the reality of sex or 274 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 something, you know? That is what she 275 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wanted to make it sound like instead of 276 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a political position about the place of 277 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transgender people in society. 278 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 When you first saw that tweet were, like, 279 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 alarm bells ringing? 280 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point 281 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I was like, yeah I basically internally 282 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 thought there was like a nine 283 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hundred and ninety-nine out of 284 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one thousand percent chance that 285 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -it's, as people say, over, right? -Matt: (laughter) Right 286 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's so over, right? Like I already 287 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 basically already kind of knew that. 288 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But I also kind of knew that, like, 289 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 well, most people aren't gonna notice 290 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that it's over until she says something 291 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 more explicit. 292 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Until she's doing Holocaust denial. 293 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Until she's doing Holocaust denial, 294 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 exactly. But, of course, I've seen 295 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 enough people who kind of start this way 296 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with this flirtation with bigotry where 297 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 stage one is usually like, "Well I 298 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 support the right for people to be bigots" 299 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, I don't like that there's this, 300 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, cancel culture, whatever politically 301 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 correct - you can't say anything anymore. 302 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, that's usually the prelude to a 303 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of 304 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like a softer way of getting a foot 305 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in the door. Like, you're not necessarily 306 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 committing yourself to saying anything 307 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right 308 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of people to say that and you don't 309 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like how, you know, how vicious people 310 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are being towards people who are getting 311 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 criticized for saying more bigoted things. 312 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In retrospect, it's clear that she's 313 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 preparing the way to be the one saying 314 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 those bigoted things herself. 315 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For a while longer, well into 2020, 316 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she, like, continues this road of 317 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to 318 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 send you another thread. 319 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's funny how I know all of these 320 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -like, by heart practically -Matt: Oh (laughter) 321 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -It's like song lyrics (laughter) -Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar 322 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -of the things she has said about -Matt: (laughing) 323 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes, 324 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -tweet seven, verse three". -Matt: (wheezes) 325 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I know, cause, like, we've read these 326 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -f***ing tweets so many times -Natalie: I know, 327 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the last four years has been 328 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 dominated by having to read these 329 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 terrible opinions again and again. 330 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is, honestly, no one should be 331 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 allowed to get this famous. It's too 332 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 dangerous. 333 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughter) 334 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay, but for the normal people listening 335 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who aren't so online, do you want to read 336 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what she tweeted on June 6, I believe, 337 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 2020? 338 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me 339 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 reading from the book of Rowling, 340 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 chapter six (laughter). 341 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no 342 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real, 343 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the lived reality of women globally 344 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is erased. I know and love trans people, 345 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but erasing the concept of sex removes 346 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the ability of many to meaningfully 347 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 discuss their lives. It isn't hate to 348 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 speak the truth." 349 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Tweet two, "The idea that women like me, 350 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who've been empathetic to trans people 351 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for decades, feeling kinship because 352 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they're vulnerable in the same way 353 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate' 354 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans people because they think sex is 355 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 real and has lived consequences - 356 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (English): it is a nonsense." 357 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I -Matt: (laughter) 358 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing 359 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -it in an English accent. -Matt: (laughing) 360 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) I'm gonna switch to 361 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 doing an English accent for the last 362 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one because I feel like, I just feel like 363 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (English) "I respect every trans person's 364 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right to live any way that feels 365 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 authentic and comfortable to them. 366 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'd march with you if you were 367 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 discriminated against on the basis 368 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of being trans. At the same time, my 369 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 life has been shaped by being female. 370 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I do not believe it's hateful to say so." 371 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Matt) "I'd march with you if you were 372 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 being discriminated against." 373 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red 374 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 flag, right? And this was, like, the 375 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 same month that the U.S., like, Donald 376 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Trump had, like, announced, like, an 377 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 intention to, like, ban trans healthcare. 378 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yes. 379 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The notion that, like, discrimination 380 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 against trans people is this, like, 381 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hypothetical thing that might occur in 382 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the future, right? 383 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If ever there was a trans person who 384 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 faced bigotry on the basis of their 385 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 identity, I would stand up for them. But 386 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just 387 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -not, I'm not standing up -(Natalie) Yeah, right. 388 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No one's ever been discriminated against 389 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for being trans. But, like, if it does 390 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 happen, I'll march with you. 391 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, okay, first of all, by the way, these 392 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes 393 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - and people were like, - Natalie: Yes. 394 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like 395 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 again, a normal person who isn't super 396 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 online, and, I mean, you know, from 397 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the queer and pro-trans end, but also 398 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 from, like, the super anti-trans end. 399 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like if you aren't a part of either of 400 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 those groups, you're reading this 401 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and are like, "What the f*** is she 402 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talking about? Like what is this 'sex 403 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is real' thing?" Like, what is she 404 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talking about? 405 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's a weird argument, right? Because 406 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it seems on the surface like it's a 407 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 linguistic point that she's trying to 408 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 make, right? There's this idea, like she 409 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 says, quote, "If we get rid of the 410 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 concept of sex that removes the 411 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ability of many to discuss their lives." 412 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay, this is what I think the assumption 413 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that 414 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans people are who they say they 415 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are, then that means that none of 416 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the rest of us can talk about how gender 417 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 has impacted our lives, right? In other 418 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 words, think of a trans, is a woman, then 419 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can 420 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 never talk about the way that I have 421 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 been discriminated against for being 422 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an 423 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 oppression olympics almost kind of 424 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - argument, where it's like - Matt: Mmm 425 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there can only be one oppressed group, 426 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right? And if we talk about how, you 427 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know, there's no way to include trans 428 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people as a valid concept without sort of 429 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 somehow, like, deleting or erasing the 430 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 entire concept of women. Which, I mean, 431 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it doesn't make any sense, right? 432 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as 433 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 an example. Okay what does it mean to 434 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so 435 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she'll use the example of, like, okay, 436 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some hospital somewhere, on a piece of 437 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant 438 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 person" instead of "pregnant woman". 439 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Why? Because there is transgender men who 440 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 can and have gotten pregnant. And so, 441 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 saying "pregnant people" is a more, like, 442 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 even if you find that to be an awkward 443 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive 444 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 phrase that is going to help trans men 445 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who need reproductive healthcare 446 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that, you know, conventionally would be 447 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "women's health", right? I just don't 448 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 understand why making it inclusive to 449 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transgender men somehow, like, deletes 450 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the concept of women from existence. 451 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make 452 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 any sense to me. I feel like it's, like, 453 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a weird pretext for being prejudicial. 454 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -It's just such a lie. I mean, you see -Natalie: Yeah. 455 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this a lot with Turph's trans 456 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 exclusionary radical feminists. It's like 457 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the arm of quote on quote, "feminism" 458 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that is basically just defined by 459 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transphobia. Especially towards trans 460 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 women. 461 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yeah, I don't even know if I would say 462 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that it's especially towards trans women. 463 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I would say that there is especially 464 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 vitriolic towards trans women 465 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - and they kind of vilify. - Matt: Mmm 466 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Trans women are sort of cast as, like, 467 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 dangerous predators. But trans men, I 468 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 feel like, the way that a lot of, like, 469 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about 470 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans men as a quite reprehensible I 471 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - think, too. Like, usually the idea - Matt: Mmm 472 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is, like, trans men are like confused 473 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 girls who've been tricked by, like, the 474 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 medical establishment, like, the evil 475 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cabal of endocrinologist who have, like, 476 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls 477 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 into thinking that they're men. Which, of 478 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 course, is not how the healthcare system 479 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 works at all. Like, you really have to 480 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no 481 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one is persuading you to do this. In 482 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is 483 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 telling you not to. So, the idea that 484 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans men or that any kind of assigned 485 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 female at birth trans person is this sort 486 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like, 487 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's not vilification to the extent that 488 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they've vilified trans women as dangerous 489 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 predators, but it's in tantalizing in a 490 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 way that I think can be just as harmful 491 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in its consequences, right? When someone 492 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about 493 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 your own body because you're too confused 494 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and childish." Like, you know, that has 495 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 devastating consequences which we see. 496 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Any feminist should be aware of how this 497 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 works cause this is what they say about 498 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 abortion; it's what they about 499 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 contraception; it's what they say about 500 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 women's health in general. "Shut up, 501 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 little girl," right, "You can't make 502 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 decisions about your body. We'll do it 503 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K. 504 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Rowling is essentially saying to trans 505 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 men. 506 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (inaudible) especially towards trans men 507 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 do this like, "We're loosing our lesbians. 508 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They're all becoming trans men thing." 509 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which that as a refrain, I just don't 510 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 understand at all because, like, 511 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 statistically when you look at, like, 512 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the number of gen Z people who are 513 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 coming out as queer, under every single 514 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 one of the letters, it's higher in all 515 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of them. -(Natalie) Right. 516 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like there are more out lesbians today 517 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 than there have ever been. 518 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (stammers) Yes, there's never been more 519 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 -lesbians, like, yeah - Matt: (laughs) And to be clear 520 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I love that (laughs) 521 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah. 522 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No, I mean, I feel like it comes from, 523 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's like a very, like, selfish, like, 524 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 childish perspective. It's almost like, 525 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "No don't transition, you're so sexy aha," 526 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind - Matt: Yeah (laughs) 527 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of, like, (stammers) and some gay women 528 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 do say this about trans men. Like, 529 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "No, all the butch women are 530 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transitioning, like, I wanted to f*** 531 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 them before, no!" And it's like, okay, 532 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people 533 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 don't have to live their lives in 534 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 accordance with what you find sexually 535 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 attractive. Like, again, as a woman 536 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (stammers) you should know this, right? 537 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - you should know that what you're - Matt: Yeah 538 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 doing, what you're speaking about someone 539 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as if your sexual attraction to them 540 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 entitles you to their living a certain 541 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 way. You should know why that's bad and 542 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 why that feels violating and why that robs 543 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 someone of autonomy, right? 544 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And with Turphs and this whole thing of, 545 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, "they're erasing the linguistic 546 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 concept of a woman." It's like (sighs) 547 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - what world do you have to live in - (Natalie) Yeah. 548 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for that to feel like the truth? And 549 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes 550 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with these conversations I'm very careful 551 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman 552 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who I disagree with entirely on so many 553 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna 554 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 police her understanding of her own trauma 555 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - as it pretends to being a woman. - (Natalie) Yeah. 556 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 However, I still, like, we all live in 557 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the same society, and it's like, I'm 558 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just very hard pressed to think that the 559 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 word "woman" is going anywhere. 560 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie scoffs) 561 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's like, I don't think that, because on 562 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some, like, in some medical papers that 563 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are being published, that they're using 564 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the terms "people who get pregnant," 565 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "people who get periods," I don't think 566 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that means that, like, they're gonna start 567 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 calling you in casual conversation 568 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "a person who menstruates." 569 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No. And no one talks like that way. 570 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I've never heard of a trans person 571 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 casually refer to cis woman as 572 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "people who menstruate." Because the 573 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 entire point of that term is that it 574 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 doesn't just refer to cis women. 575 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There are people who have a sort of 576 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 visceral reaction to it, which I 577 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 guess I can kind of understand. Like, 578 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think if you were to make, like, an 579 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 intelligible, like, understandable 580 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems 581 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be saying in these tweets, I mean I 582 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 think you could put it like this, 583 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "For most women, the way that they are 584 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 oppressed in society is in fact 585 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 intertwined with biology," right? With 586 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 women's reproductive role, as most women 587 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are capable of getting pregnant. And 588 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that becomes a area where women's lives 589 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are policed, right? It's interesting how 590 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling never talks about this, 591 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - right? Not a word, not a word - Matt: Mhmm 592 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about Roe v Wade being overturned 593 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in the United States. For most women, 594 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 biology and misogyny, they certainly are 595 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - intertwined. And there's a case to be - Matt: Yeah. 596 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 made that anyone who's assigned 597 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 female at birth does sort of belong 598 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a oppressed class by virtue of 599 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 their reproductive capability. Especially, 600 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, you know, the sensitivity around, 601 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, you know, "same people who 602 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 menstruate" or "people who give birth." 603 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I feel like if you hear those phrases in 604 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 isolation, they kind of, like, can be 605 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 abrasive sounding because there's, 606 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, a lot of shame and stigma, there 607 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 have for thousands of years around 608 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 menstruation and, you know, women 609 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 often are kind of reduced by patriarchy 610 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, like, birthing people in a sense, 611 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right? So, I feel like that there's, like, 612 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some grain of something I can sympathize 613 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with her in terms of having a visceral, 614 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 negative reaction to these phrases. 615 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But I feel like anyone who takes a second 616 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to cool down, understand the context 617 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the phrase, will see that's clearly 618 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 not the intention. They know that it's 619 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 going to have an emotional effect for a 620 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - lot of women to see those phrases. - Matt: Mhmm 621 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, they kind of decontextualize it 622 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and blast it onto Twitter with, like, 623 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a kind of vague implication that, 624 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "Oh, this is what they are going to 625 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 reduce you to," and, like, "they" is who? 626 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "They" is quote on quote trans ideology. 627 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which is sort of vaguely implied to be 628 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this, like, powerful cabal. 629 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughs) Right, which is also incredible 630 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because in real life it's like people 631 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with a hundred followers on Twitter. 632 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yes, right! It's like you're being yelled 633 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at by, like, random, like, furries. 634 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughing) 635 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling, she does fixate heavily on 636 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 her own perceived persecution by trans 637 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people on Twitter. J.K. Rowling often 638 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gets into these, like, feuds, like very 639 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 public feuds that she- actually I wanna 640 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 google how many followers she has on 641 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Twitter. J.K. Rowling... Do you know 642 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the number by heart? 643 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, I think it used to be like 644 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fourteen million. 645 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Oh! It's fourteen million. 646 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I hate that I know this. 647 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughter) Me too. 648 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't want these stocks in my head. 649 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling, to her fourteen million 650 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 followers, she, like, regularly puts these 651 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 random a**, people on blast, and it's 652 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, I don't know, I have, what? I have 653 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 four hundred thousand Twitter followers, 654 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is, by the way, too many for a 655 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 twink. But, none the less, it's like, lots 656 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of horrible people say horrible things 657 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to me on the internet. You have to 658 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 be aware of the power dynamic of, like, 659 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when you have fourteen million followers. 660 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I feel like it was missing from J.K. 661 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Rowling's discussion of how she, like, 662 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 victimized by social media, is any 663 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 understanding of power, and I think 664 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that a key thing that is going on with 665 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling is that she doesn't 666 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 conceptualize herself as a powerful 667 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 person. I mean, and this is common, 668 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right? Cause, you know, most people 669 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of think of themselves as, like, 670 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 heroic underdogs, I feel, because, I 671 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 don't know, you got bullied as a child, 672 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you got, you know, (stutters) right, 673 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, in J.K. Rowling's case, like, she 674 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 used to live in relative poverty. She was 675 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a single mom, she fled a, you know, a 676 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 abusive relationship. And so, I still 677 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 think in a way she kind of thinks of 678 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 herself as this, like, small, like, scared 679 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 person, like, on the run. 680 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Mmmm 681 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, she's had, like, twenty-five years 682 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, like, catch up to the new reality, 683 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but I feel like internally she still 684 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hasn't, right? I think it's hard for a 685 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 lot of people to make this switch where 686 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you realize, "Oh, I am the big fish now," 687 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right? Like, "I am the one who has power." 688 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I think that, I mean a lot of what 689 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 privilege is is a kind of blindness 690 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to your own power. She hasn't noticed that 691 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she's extremely powerful and influential. 692 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, it hasn't occurred to her that, like, 693 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't know, going after some random 694 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 YouTuber with a hundred, you know, 695 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hundred thousands of subscribers, is, 696 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, weird behavior for a celebrity of 697 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 her size. 698 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And not even a YouTuber with a hundred 699 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 thousand subscribers, random a** people. 700 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I was just scrolling through her Twitter 701 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the other day getting ready for this 702 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 episode, and, like, she was sending 703 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 multiple tweets, like, screenshotting 704 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this man's tweets and then sending out 705 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 her responses to her fourteen million 706 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 followers. This guy named Rajan, who 707 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wrote, "I am a CIS male and an ally 708 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the LGBTQ community. All of my life 709 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have fought for diversity and equality. 710 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I advised two Attorney General's on 711 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 race and equality issues and prosecuted 712 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on behalf of victims of crime. I know 713 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who I am and am proud of what I stand 714 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for." And she responded with, uh, with 715 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 her own tweet, which she was pretending 716 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to speak in his voice, in Rajan's voice. 717 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 She wrote, "I am a man who wants to see 718 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 girls and women stripped of their rights 719 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and protections for the benefit of 720 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 my fellow men." And it's like, okay, 721 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 obviously that's not what Rajan was 722 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 saying. But then I was like, "Who the hell 723 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is Rajan?" He has four hundred and 724 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fifty-three followers. The tweet which she 725 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 sent out to her fourteen million 726 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 followers, Rajan's original tweet 727 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 had twenty-five likes! 728 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yeah, it's, like, literally just some guy 729 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and she's just, (stutters) like, there's 730 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 no sense of the influence she wields. 731 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, in a way, she does think that 732 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she's just someone's, like, Facebook 733 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 aunt. She's behaving in a way that is 734 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 indistinguishable from the way- she's not 735 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 acting like a public figure. 736 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I just can't understand how J.K. Rowling 737 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 has spent, and this is what she does 738 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 everyday by the way, listener, feel 739 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 free to go to her Twitter. She's beefing 740 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with someone who lives in, like, f****** 741 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Iowa. And it's like, I just can't (laughs) 742 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 conceptualize, especially if I had a 743 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 billion dollars. I don't know. I would 744 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 be on, like, a yacht probably. And not 745 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 arguing with f****** Rajan four hundred, 746 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 fifty-three followers. Rajan, if you're 747 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 out there, shout out. You seem like a 748 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 great guy. 749 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughter) 750 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yeah, we love Rajan on this podcast. 751 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I just can't make sense of her spending, 752 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I imagine her rocking back n' forth in 753 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the corner of, like, her eleventh living 754 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 room in her sixth castle; just, like, on 755 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Twitter sweating. 756 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (scoffs) I think we like to imagine 757 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that when people get, you know, really 758 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rich and famous, then there's a sense of, 759 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, peace or happiness or tranquility 760 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that accompanies that, but that does not 761 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 seem to be the case, right? I mean, I'm 762 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trying to imagine being in that situation. 763 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I feel that, like, once you achieved a 764 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 certain level of, like, you know, success 765 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 beyond most people's wildest dreams... 766 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It must be hard to know what to do with 767 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that feeling of discontentment that's, 768 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - like, still inside of you. - (Matt) Mmm 769 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I think that sometimes people, like, 770 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, wildly successful people, like 771 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 J.K. Rowling or Elon Musk, they sort of 772 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 get addicted to Twitter as this, like, 773 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - source of conflict (scoffs) almost. - (Matt) Mmm 774 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's almost like (stutters) once you don't 775 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 have to worry about money, once, you know, 776 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you're free of your, you know, your past 777 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 abusive relationship, once you've, you 778 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know, accomplish all the things you 779 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 previously wanted to accomplish, it's, 780 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, it's almost like you need to- you 781 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just can't be happy with that. You need 782 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, like, find a new, like, fight almost. 783 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, people go looking on Twitter; 784 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you can always find a fight on Twitter. 785 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think there's something very unhealthy 786 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about the way a lot of people, uh, relate 787 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to using the internet as a source of 788 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 conflict, and then once your ego gets 789 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 invested, I think that's, you know, part 790 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of what's going on with J.K. Rowling, of 791 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 course, is that because she's come, 792 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, she's, like, positioned herself 793 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so firmly on the anti-trans side. She now 794 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 feels like she has to defend it viciously. 795 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because otherwise, that would mean 796 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 admitting that she was wrong and admitting 797 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that she's caused a massive amount of 798 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 damage. 799 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yes and you know what? It is really hard 800 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, like, profess your beliefs in front of 801 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a lot of people. Like I have basically 802 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 done that as part of my job of making, 803 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, social and political content and 804 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 commentary online for the lat few years. 805 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like one of the things that took me 806 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 too long to come to grips with is that, 807 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, sometimes you need to know when 808 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you're wrong. And, like, taking the L as 809 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - the kids say, and I've had to - (Natalie) Yeah. 810 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 take L's online and it's embarrassing 811 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it makes you feel small. I mean, 812 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Natalie, I know that's happened to you 813 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or you've had to come to the mic and 814 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 be like, "Yeah I was wrong about this 815 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 thing," even if it takes a while to do 816 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that. That is also one of the greatest, 817 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, personal lessons that I've taken 818 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 away from, like, being online 819 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 politically; is that being wrong is 820 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 actually, like, I mean it's so f****** 821 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 corny, but it's like an opportunity. 822 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think it's, like, genuinely, like, 823 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 severely good for you to be able to 824 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 accept that. It's been helpful to me 825 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 overtime to learn, to get a lot of 826 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 criticism, and to kind of be at peace 827 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with it, and to not feel like I need to 828 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 constantly be, like, a vigilant defender 829 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of my own ego. People are going to say 830 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 things about me, they're going to 831 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 misrepresent me, they're going to 832 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 criticize me, and some of it will be 833 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 true, and a lot of it will be false. And 834 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, you just kind of have to learn to 835 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - find peace with that. Otherwise you'll - (Matt) Mmm 836 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 go crazy. But, yeah, what we have on 837 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 our hands here with Ms. Rowling is a case 838 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of someone who is pathologically 839 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 incapable of ever letting anything go 840 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ever, right? - Matt: (laughs) Ever. 841 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, I don't think she's ever once 842 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 admitted to being wrong about a single 843 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 thing. 844 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 No, and that includes the Holocaust denial 845 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 arc, which I'm teasing the listener with 846 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 cause we're not quite there yet. 847 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I wanna return to the role of language 848 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in all of this and, like, semantics, 849 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right? We're going to be talking about 850 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the transphobia serving as a gateway 851 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 into further right wing, you know, broader 852 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right wing ideology. But then I also think 853 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that taking it back a step, I think that 854 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some people's entry into transphobia are 855 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 these, like, frankly, like, silly semantic 856 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - word arguments. - (Natalie) Yeah. 857 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They're erasing the word "women." And so, 858 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as another example, what I think is a 859 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 powerful example of that: Anna Kasparian. 860 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, Anna Kasparian, she's one of the 861 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 political commentators on the Young Turks, 862 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is one of the bigger and of the 863 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 earlier left wing political YouTube shows. 864 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You know she had her viral, um, "I don't 865 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 care what the Bible says! I don't, like... 866 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (video) "I don't care if you're Christian. 867 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In fact, I will fight for you to have 868 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 your religious liberty and practice 869 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 your Christianity. I believe in that. I 870 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 don't believe in Christianity, which means 871 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that you do not get to dictate the way I 872 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 live my life based on your religion. 873 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't care what the Bible says. You have 874 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 every right in the world. All those women 875 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who identify with your religion have every 876 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 right in the world to not get an 877 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 abortion, to not take birth control. 878 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But they do not have the right to dictate 879 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 my life and what I decide to do with 880 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 my body. I don't care about your gd* 881 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 religion." 882 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Matt) I think she's, like, had some 883 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 really great things to say over the years. 884 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And none of that, none of the education, 885 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 none of anything stopped her from falling 886 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 into transphobic semantic rabbit hole 887 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 last May; like all horrible things that 888 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 took place on Twitter. So I'm going to 889 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 send you the tweets. 890 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay so this first tweet is, "I'm a woman. 891 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Please don't ever refer to me as a 892 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 person with a uterus, birthing person, 893 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or person who menstruates. How do 894 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people not realize how degrading this is? 895 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You can support the transgender community 896 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without doing this s***." 897 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you're just taking this tweet at face 898 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 value, I don't even disagree with it. 899 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think, like, yeah, right, don't, you 900 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 shouldn't refer to an individual person 901 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a "birthing person," that's weird. I 902 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 agree. I feel like where I disagree is in 903 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the subtext, right? The first question 904 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have is, in what context did someone 905 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 refer to Anna in this way? Did this 906 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 happen? Did someone call her 907 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (Natalie) "a person who menstruates"? 908 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Like, in what context? Was the context 909 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on a piece of medical paperwork? Should 910 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 phrases such as "a person who menstruates" 911 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 replace the phrase "women" in everyday 912 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 English? No, of course not. Who's 913 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 suggesting that? Is anyone suggesting 914 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that? I've never once heard trans person 915 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 suggest that. So, it's like, we're 916 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 arguing against this position that, 917 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, who are we arguing against? 918 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't know. It feels like (stutters) for 919 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some reason there's this need to argue 920 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 against this, like, strong man version of 921 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a trans activist, who insist that we stop 922 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 using the word "women". I've never heard 923 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 someone claim that. I also think, like, 924 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 even the extent to which this is used 925 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in medical context is overstated. Like, I 926 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 don't know, I'm thinking of, like, recent 927 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 times I've interacted with the medical 928 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 system. I feel like I'm often, you know, 929 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when you select your gender on medical 930 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 paperwork, it's usually male, female, 931 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or, like, other (scoffs) and it'll ask 932 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you to explain. So, I will usually, like, 933 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 add, you know, as a context note that 934 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I am a transgender woman. So that, in so 935 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 far as that's medically relevant, it's 936 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 noted. I have no given birth, nor have I 937 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 been to the hospital with someone giving 938 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 birth recently. So, I cannot say what the 939 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 experience is like. But I guess I'll be 940 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 curious to know, like, how often, I don't 941 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know, if someone is listening this, um, 942 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, if you, like, had a baby at a 943 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 hospital recently, like, how frequently 944 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were phrases like "birthing person" used? 945 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 My guess is not very frequently. 946 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - So I'm not sure (stammers) It just - (Matt) Right. 947 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 feels like a sort of imaginary argument 948 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we're having. 949 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Totally, totally. 950 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (stammers) I'm, like, lacking context for, 951 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, where is this occurring? I spend a 952 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 lot of time around women, actually. And 953 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I feel like I don't see the word- I don't 954 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 see these phrases being thrown around 955 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 very often these days. And I'm in a very 956 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trans inclusive, you know, kind of social 957 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - environment. So, you'd think if - Matt: (laughs) 958 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 lots of people had replaced the word 959 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "women" with "person with a uterus," I 960 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 think I would have heard that but I 961 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 haven't. 962 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughs) Right? So, she's starting to get 963 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of dogged online and she responds 964 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with tweet number two. Please hold... 965 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Did you receive? 966 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Umm, hold on. Not yet. 967 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Oh, wait. Did it not send to you? 968 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - I don't see it. - (Matt) Oh, weird. 969 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay wait let me try again. Maybe I 970 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just sent it to the wrong person (laughs) 971 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And then out of no where you receive it 972 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughter) 973 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (inaudible) 974 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You might want to figure out who you 975 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - just send that to. It could be kind of - (Matt laughing) 976 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 weird with no context. 977 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (laughing continues) 978 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay tweet two, "LOL. The meltdowns over 979 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wanting to be referred to as a woman 980 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rather than a "birthing person" is pretty 981 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wild. I'll never apologize for that, 982 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 especially as biological woman who 983 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 has had a f****** lifetime of being 984 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 told I'm less than. I'm a woman. No 985 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 apologies," (sighs) So, again it's like, I 986 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 don't know, a lot of this type of 987 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 transphobic stuff comes from a kind of, 988 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, misdirected frustration with 989 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 misogyny. Anna reacted with, "Oh, people 990 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are sort of forcing me to be called 991 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the 'birthing person', and then that's 992 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 sort of somehow erasing the lifetime of 993 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 misogyny that I've had to experience 994 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a woman." I mean, I think it's like a 995 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 kind of scapegoat in a way. I feel that, 996 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, a lot of times, like, people who 997 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 get (inaudible) into this gender critical 998 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talking points, it's often a kind of, 999 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, displaced rage and frustration at 1000 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 experiences of misogyny, often in, like, 1001 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 leftist spaces, right? Cause that's a 1002 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 real thing. Misogyny is pretty rampant on 1003 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the left as it is everywhere. And I think 1004 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that a lot of women find that hard to 1005 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 complain about. And it's difficult in part 1006 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because men usually are in power. I don't 1007 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 know, you kind of, as a woman, you kind 1008 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of have to, like, pander to men to get 1009 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 through the day to some extent. 1010 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Yeah 1011 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, it's like frightening to take a stand 1012 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 against men. But trans people this kind 1013 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of, like, hated minority that is sort of 1014 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 easy to, like, it's kind of easy to, 1015 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, dump all of your, like, frustrations 1016 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and rage onto trans people because 1017 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there's a social momentum behind that 1018 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in a way that there sort of isn't against, 1019 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, I don't know, frustration with 1020 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 misogyny and leftist spaces, for example. 1021 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I honestly kinda feel bad for Anna reading 1022 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 these tweets because obviously there's 1023 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some massive life, as she says, a lifetime 1024 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of, like, of difficult experiences that's 1025 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 behind this. And it's blowing up now, but 1026 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's choosing as its target, this very 1027 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 weird thing that seems to me, to be 1028 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 slightly off topic. 1029 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So these tweets are in March. And then in 1030 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 July, she is still kind of stuck on 1031 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this transgender issue. In a discussion 1032 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about various social justice movements 1033 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and their methods for accomplishing 1034 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 their goals, she tweets what I have 1035 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 selected as to be tweet number three. 1036 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which I will send to you now. 1037 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Oh, this one (scoffs) Yeah this is... - (Matt laughs) 1038 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Okay, and see this is (stutters) this 1039 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 tweet- I know I'm talking about the 1040 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 tweet before I've read it. But I do feel 1041 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that this tweet that I'm about to read, 1042 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it really kind of does showcase the way 1043 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that transphobia is kind of a red flag and 1044 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's often the prelude to a whole bunch 1045 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of nonsense. Okay (breaths deeply) 1046 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Anna Kasparian quote, "The Civil Rights 1047 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Movement did not use the same strategies 1048 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as the trans movement. They didn't 1049 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 barricade speakers they disagreed with in 1050 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a classroom for three hours. They 1051 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 persuaded through non-violence and 1052 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 showing America their humanity." 1053 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So this is (exhales) this is basically the 1054 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 entire thing that the podcast called, 1055 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" was 1056 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about, um. This was what the podcast with 1057 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Megan Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist 1058 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Church fame, uh and J.K. Rowling. A lot 1059 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the argument was, like, "Oh, what we 1060 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 really hate about the trans movement is 1061 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they use, like, illiberal methods. And 1062 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's so unlike all past movements. Like 1063 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Gay Rights wasn't like this, and Women's 1064 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Rights wasn't like this, and the Civil 1065 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Rights Movement, they never did anything 1066 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 violent and they were always polite and 1067 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they never raised their voices and they 1068 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 never called people names." And it's just, 1069 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, "Well I'm sorry that is historically 1070 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 not true." 1071 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And it's so jarring to see someone like 1072 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Anna Kasparian, who knows all of that, - (Natalie) Knows, yeah. 1073 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 though. She knows all of that. I mean, all 1074 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of these movements had (stammers) 1075 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You think about that one famous, uh, 1076 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 clip of Angela Davis talking about, like, 1077 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whether or not she endorses violence. 1078 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And she's just like, "Well, whether or not 1079 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I endorse it is besides the point. 1080 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Violence is the only thing I've ever known 1081 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a black person in America. " 1082 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Have these people heard of Malcolm X? 1083 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Have they heard (stammers and scoffs) 1084 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Stonewall! Like, come on! 1085 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What do these people think the Civil 1086 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Rights Movement was? Like, I mean, it's 1087 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 literally every one of these movements, 1088 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 too. Like, I mean, again, people think of 1089 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Women's Suffrage (inaudible), you know, 1090 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you think of the women marching with 1091 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 their banners and it's like, "Oh, they 1092 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just had to show people their humanity by 1093 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 being peaceful," and it's like, churches 1094 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were firebombed (scoffs) by suffrage 1095 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 acts in the U.K. People were physically, 1096 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they were murdered for Women's Suffrage. 1097 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which is not to say that I am endorsing 1098 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 these violent methods, but it's like, 1099 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm about to get so demonetized.