WEBVTT 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Fruity, the show where we think that you 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 should never live in the closet, Harry, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 even if the woman who created you changes her mind. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 If you would like to support the show 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or perhaps want a little bit more of the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 show, we are on Patreon and by the time 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this episode is up, it'll be around the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 same time that I upload March's deep dive 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on Patreon, which I do every month 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and this month it is on the wokeness of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Sydney Sweeney, the right just figured 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 out who Sydney Sweeney is because 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they saw her on SNL and they never watched 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 causing a freakout of epic proportions. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So we're going to do a little analysis 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of a woman's body, which is something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm fairly new to. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So, you know, wish me luck. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Today we are joined, once again, by 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 someone I'm honored to call a friend 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 know her online, ContraPoints is, an 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 ex-philosopher, she is a youtuber 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I think calling her a youtuber 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is kind of diminutive to her craft. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 She puts out a couple feature film length 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 videos a year that you've probably 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 watched but if you haven't, you really 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 should go check those out. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 She talks about philosophy, sex and 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 gender, and capitalism, and twilight. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Thank you much for having me back on. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I am excited to be here again. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm honored to be a friend of the show. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm honored to have you as a friend 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of the show. So, a couple weeks ago 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 little Holocaust denial. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 She does Holocaust denial a little from 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 time to time, (laughter) yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 wasn't always on Twitter denying 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that, uh, queer people were persecuted in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was a universally beloved children's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 author who taught every kid that there 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was magic inside of them no matter how 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 cast out they may feel. Today, though, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how would you characterize her position 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the culture today? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, her position in the culture is 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of weirdly split, right, cause on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the one hand, there is her continuing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 legacy as the author of the wizard books 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and on the other hand, there's like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 almost her entire public persona, that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which we mostly experience through Twitter 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is basically obsessive bigotry 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 towards trans people. That's become 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 sort of her definitive thing, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think that people who don't follow this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of don't understand the extent of it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because, you know, I don't know, people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 throw around like all kinds of accusations 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on Twitter, so it's easy to think that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this is some kind of internet drama 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 blown out of proportion. But what you're 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 missing is that if you have not been 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for the last, at this point, we're 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 talking about four or five years, which 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is a long time. Like, she's basically used 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 her platform more often than not to do 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans-bashing. There's a reason why that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this gets talked about so much because, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, she's one of the most famous 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 authors in the world with an enormous 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 platform, and she's just using it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 constantly to target this small and, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, already besieged, minority of people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who are facing, like, all kinds of, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 legislative and cultural backlash in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 devastating (chuckle) that an author 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that, that's this influential is also, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, this obsessively devoted to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 persecute, you know, to contributing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to the persecution of this group of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 people, who's already so harassed. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But it's also, I don't know, it's also 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's own right it's kind of like another 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 reason I feel like we're drawn to this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 fascinating. How does this happen? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, how do we go from, like, the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Gryffindor common room and, you know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 rants about the transexuals. It's weird. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It, it is weird and I think also, I mean, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 right now and scroll through her feed, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it is literal years of talking every 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 single day, almost exclusively, about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transgender people, for years. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Which I think is the type of behavior 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 we associate, with like boomer facebook 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 moms, and then I guess in a sense, she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of would have been that, if she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 hadn't become a billionaire and one of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the most famous and beloved children's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 authors of all time. But she is those 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 things and the idea of her behaving the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 way, like, our homophobic aunt does 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or whatever, but like from some castle 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the U.K., is just like a very jarring 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it really well, right, like, it is, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 except on a platform with millions of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 people as the audience. I feel like we 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as a society, have, like, yet to know how 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to deal with this type of thing cause 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a little bit in some similar forms of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 bigotry with a (inaudible) or even 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 larger platform. But I feel like what's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 unique about J.K. Rowling is that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she's, like, single mindedly focused on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans people as this one issue. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Matt) So she wasn't always this way, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 though and what we're gonna do today 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a valuable case study in the worm hole 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that transphobia is. The way that it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and so many millions of other people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as a portal into the broader world 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of right-wing ideology that gets pretty 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 scary pretty quickly. We're gonna 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 try to understand why transphobia, and 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think especially when it's cloaked, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 no pun intended, as a progressive feminist 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 cause and especially effective 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 gateway into the alt right. One day 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you're reminding people that you 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 just like to be preferred to as a woman 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and that you are a woman and then, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you know, the next day you are 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 participating in Holocaust denial. It can 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this story I wanna go back to 2019 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to the first tweet that I remember 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the anti-trans movement, which at the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 beginning was very tepid. I am going to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 however you please. Call yourself 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 whatever you like. Sleep with any 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 consenting adult who'll have you. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Live your best life in peace and security. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But force women out of their jobs for 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 stating that sex is real? Hashtag I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a drill." (Matt) So what was the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 context of this one? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie) So, the context is that there 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was a English consultant named 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 fired but her contract was not 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 renewed because she had, like, refused 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to use the correct pronouns for a trans 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 coworker or something along those lines. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And a lot of so called "gender-critical", 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that is "transphobic", people in the U.K. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 decided to turn this into a celebrated 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 cause, they, you know, rallied behind 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this hashtag "I stand with maya". 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 have to submit to gender ideology by, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you know, using the correct pronouns 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for trans people in the work place or 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 decided to join this discourse 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 officially. She decided to jump in on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the side of people who think that it's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 terribly oppressive to have to use 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the correct pronouns for a trans person. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I guess at first, you know, there was 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 some ambiguity because you could be 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she just believes in free speech, and she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 thinks that, you know, that people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 shouldn't be fired for having different 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 opinions." (inaudible) okay, like, at 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 first you could sort of plausibly think 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that maybe, given the benefit of the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 doubt, that's why she was getting 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 involved in this. But, like, to people who 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of know the pattern that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transphobia takes place, we all pretty 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 much knew that, "Oh, okay she really 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is transphobic behind the scenes". 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, there is no way that you would 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -go decide to die on this hill unless - Matt: Hmm. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you already were. At least that's what I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 was at her most dangerous in 2019 and 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in 2020 because of the stuff she was 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 saying seems kind of plausible and 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 reasonable to the average person, you 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 know. And so, there's this kind of like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 clever selection of which topics to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 get behind, right, instead of just, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I don't know, calling trans women "men" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 defending the "right" of people to not 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 use the correct pronouns if they don't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 agree, right?. (inaudible) this people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 kind of hedge in this way, like, when 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they have a kind of like bigoted opinion 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 instead of just stating it out, right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They sort of defend their right to have 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -that opinion. - Matt: Mhmm. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So, that was very much with this thing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she's not saying something sort of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 directly transphobic, but she is kind of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 indirectly getting there by being like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "I am going to publicly champion Maya's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 right to be transphobic. " 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Matt) I feel like in the early days 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she did so much of this plausible, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 deniability stuff where it's like, you 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 know, "I'm just saying sex is real". 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Right? And the average person who 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 isn't, like, a terminally online queer 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 whatever, like, who cares." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You know? It's like not a big deal. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 early on at kind of like deciding what 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it was that she thought people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 were mad about, right? And so she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 framed the conversation, "Oh here's why 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 backlash because I said quote on quote 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like if you believe her account of what 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 people are mad about, then it sounds like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 everyone whose mad is unreasonable 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because they are mad at her for taking 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this kind of - taking what? An abstract, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 philosophical position about the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 metaphysics of biological sex? Like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is that what people are mad about? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 No, right? It's of course not that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because she is intervening in this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 social and political debate, right, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on the side that wants trans people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 functionally not to exist in public 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 life, or not to be acknowledged in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 public life. So, that is what people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are mad about, right? But early on, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think she was able to kind of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 frame her position as being this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, I don't know, almost philosophical 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 position about the reality of sex or 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 something, you know? That is what she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 wanted to make it sound like instead of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a political position about the place of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transgender people in society. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 When you first saw that tweet were, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 alarm bells ringing? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I was like, yeah I basically internally 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 thought there was like a nine 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 hundred and ninety-nine out of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 one thousand percent chance that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -it's, as people say, over, right? -Matt: (laughter) Right 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's so over, right? Like I already 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 basically already kind of knew that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I also kind of knew that, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 well, most people aren't gonna notice 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that it's over until she says something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 more explicit. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Until she's doing Holocaust denial. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Until she's doing Holocaust denial, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 exactly. But, of course, I've seen 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 enough people who kind of start this way 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with this flirtation with bigotry where 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 stage one is usually like, "Well I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 support the right for people to be bigots" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, I don't like that there's this, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, cancel culture, whatever politically 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 correct - you can't say anything anymore. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, that's usually the prelude to a 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like a softer way of getting a foot 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the door. Like, you're not necessarily 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 committing yourself to saying anything 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of people to say that and you don't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like how, you know, how vicious people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are being towards people who are getting 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 criticized for saying more bigoted things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In retrospect, it's clear that she's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 preparing the way to be the one saying 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 those bigoted things herself. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 For a while longer, well into 2020, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she, like, continues this road of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 send you another thread. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's funny how I know all of these 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -like, by heart practically -Matt: Oh (laughter) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -It's like song lyrics (laughter) -Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -of the things she has said about -Matt: (laughing) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -tweet seven, verse three". -Matt: (wheezes) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I know, cause, like, we've read these 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -f***ing tweets so many times -Natalie: I know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the last four years has been 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 dominated by having to read these 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 terrible opinions again and again. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 This is, honestly, no one should be 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 allowed to get this famous. It's too 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 dangerous. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (laughter) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Okay, but for the normal people listening 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who aren't so online, do you want to read 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 what she tweeted on June 6, I believe, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 2020? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 reading from the book of Rowling, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 chapter six (laughter). 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the lived reality of women globally 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is erased. I know and love trans people, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but erasing the concept of sex removes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the ability of many to meaningfully 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 discuss their lives. It isn't hate to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 speak the truth." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Tweet two, "The idea that women like me, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who've been empathetic to trans people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for decades, feeling kinship because 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they're vulnerable in the same way 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate' 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans people because they think sex is 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 real and has lived consequences - 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (English): it is a nonsense." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I -Matt: (laughter) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -it in an English accent. -Matt: (laughing) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie) I'm gonna switch to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 doing an English accent for the last 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 one because I feel like, I just feel like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (English) "I respect every trans person's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 right to live any way that feels 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 authentic and comfortable to them. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'd march with you if you were 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 discriminated against on the basis 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of being trans. At the same time, my 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 life has been shaped by being female. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I do not believe it's hateful to say so." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Matt) "I'd march with you if you were 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 being discriminated against." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 flag, right? And this was, like, the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 same month that the U.S., like, Donald 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Trump had, like, announced, like, an 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 intention to, like, ban trans healthcare. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Yes. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The notion that, like, discrimination 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 against trans people is this, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 hypothetical thing that might occur in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the future, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 If ever there was a trans person who 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 faced bigotry on the basis of their 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 identity, I would stand up for them. But 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -not, I'm not standing up -(Natalie) Yeah, right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 No one's ever been discriminated against 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for being trans. But, like, if it does 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 happen, I'll march with you. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But, okay, first of all, by the way, these 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - and people were like, - Natalie: Yes. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 again, a normal person who isn't super 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 online, and, I mean, you know, from 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the queer and pro-trans end, but also 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 from, like, the super anti-trans end. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like if you aren't a part of either of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 those groups, you're reading this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and are like, "What the f*** is she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 talking about? Like what is this 'sex 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is real' thing?" Like, what is she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 talking about? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's a weird argument, right? Because 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it seems on the surface like it's a 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 linguistic point that she's trying to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 make, right? There's this idea, like she 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 says, quote, "If we get rid of the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 concept of sex that removes the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 ability of many to discuss their lives." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Okay, this is what I think the assumption 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans people are who they say they 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are, then that means that none of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the rest of us can talk about how gender 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 has impacted our lives, right? In other 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 words, think of a trans, is a woman, then 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 never talk about the way that I have 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 been discriminated against for being 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 oppression olympics almost kind of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - argument, where it's like - Matt: Mmm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there can only be one oppressed group, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 right? And if we talk about how, you 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 know, there's no way to include trans 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 people as a valid concept without sort of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 somehow, like, deleting or erasing the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 entire concept of women. Which, I mean, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it doesn't make any sense, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 an example. Okay what does it mean to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 she'll use the example of, like, okay, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 some hospital somewhere, on a piece of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 person" instead of "pregnant woman". 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Why? Because there is transgender men who 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 can and have gotten pregnant. And so, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 saying "pregnant people" is a more, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 even if you find that to be an awkward 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 phrase that is going to help trans men 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who need reproductive healthcare 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that, you know, conventionally would be 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "women's health", right? I just don't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 understand why making it inclusive to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transgender men somehow, like, deletes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the concept of women from existence. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 any sense to me. I feel like it's, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a weird pretext for being prejudicial. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -It's just such a lie. I mean, you see -Natalie: Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this a lot with Turph's trans 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 exclusionary radical feminists. It's like 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the arm of quote on quote, "feminism" 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that is basically just defined by 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transphobia. Especially towards trans 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 women. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Yeah, I don't even know if I would say 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that it's especially towards trans women. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I would say that there is especially 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 vitriolic towards trans women 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - and they kind of vilify. - Matt: Mmm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Trans women are sort of cast as, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 dangerous predators. But trans men, I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 feel like, the way that a lot of, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans men as a quite reprehensible I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - think, too. Like, usually the idea - Matt: Mmm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is, like, trans men are like confused 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 girls who've been tricked by, like, the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 medical establishment, like, the evil 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 cabal of endocrinologist who have, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 into thinking that they're men. Which, of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 course, is not how the healthcare system 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 works at all. Like, you really have to 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 one is persuading you to do this. In 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 telling you not to. So, the idea that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 trans men or that any kind of assigned 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 female at birth trans person is this sort 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's not vilification to the extent that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they've vilified trans women as dangerous 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 predators, but it's in tantalizing in a 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 way that I think can be just as harmful 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in its consequences, right? When someone 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 your own body because you're too confused 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and childish." Like, you know, that has 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 devastating consequences which we see. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Any feminist should be aware of how this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 works cause this is what they say about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 abortion; it's what they about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 contraception; it's what they say about 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 women's health in general. "Shut up, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 little girl," right, "You can't make 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 decisions about your body. We'll do it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Rowling is essentially saying to trans 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 men. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (inaudible) especially towards trans men 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 do this like, "We're loosing our lesbians. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They're all becoming trans men thing." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Which that as a refrain, I just don't 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 understand at all because, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 statistically when you look at, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the number of gen Z people who are 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 coming out as queer, under every single 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 one of the letters, it's higher in all 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of them. -(Natalie) Right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like there are more out lesbians today 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 than there have ever been. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (stammers) Yes, there's never been more 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 -lesbians, like, yeah - Matt: (laughs) And to be clear 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I love that (laughs) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 No, I mean, I feel like it comes from, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's like a very, like, selfish, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 childish perspective. It's almost like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "No don't transition, you're so sexy aha," 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind - Matt: Yeah (laughs) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of, like, (stammers) and some gay women 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 do say this about trans men. Like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "No, all the butch women are 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 transitioning, like, I wanted to f*** 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 them before, no!" And it's like, okay, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 don't have to live their lives in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 accordance with what you find sexually 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 attractive. Like, again, as a woman 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (stammers) you should know this, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - you should know that what you're - Matt: Yeah 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 doing, what you're speaking about someone 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as if your sexual attraction to them 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 entitles you to their living a certain 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 way. You should know why that's bad and 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 why that feels violating and why that robs 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 someone of autonomy, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And with Turphs and this whole thing of, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, "they're erasing the linguistic 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 concept of a woman." It's like (sighs) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - what world do you have to live in - (Natalie) Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for that to feel like the truth? And 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with these conversations I'm very careful 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who I disagree with entirely on so many 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 police her understanding of her own trauma 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - as it pretends to being a woman. - (Natalie) Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 However, I still, like, we all live in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the same society, and it's like, I'm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 just very hard pressed to think that the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 word "woman" is going anywhere. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (Natalie scoffs) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's like, I don't think that, because on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 some, like, in some medical papers that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are being published, that they're using 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 the terms "people who get pregnant," 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "people who get periods," I don't think 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that means that, like, they're gonna start 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 calling you in casual conversation 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "a person who menstruates." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 No. And no one talks like that way. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I've never heard of a trans person 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 casually refer to cis woman as 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "people who menstruate." Because the 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 entire point of that term is that it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 doesn't just refer to cis women. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There are people who have a sort of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 visceral reaction to it, which I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 guess I can kind of understand. Like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think if you were to make, like, an 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 intelligible, like, understandable 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to be saying in these tweets, I mean I 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 think you could put it like this, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 "For most women, the way that they are 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 oppressed in society is in fact 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 intertwined with biology," right? With 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 women's reproductive role, as most women 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are capable of getting pregnant. And 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that becomes a area where women's lives 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are policed, right? It's interesting how 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 J.K. Rowling never talks about this, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - right? Not a word, not a word - Matt: Mhmm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 about Roe v Wade being overturned 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the United States. For most women, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 biology and misogyny, they certainly are 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - intertwined. And there's a case to be - Matt: Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 made that anyone who's assigned 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 female at birth does sort of belong 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to a oppressed class by virtue of 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 their reproductive capability. Especially, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, you know, the sensitivity around, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, you know, "same people who 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 menstruate" or "people who give birth." 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I feel like if you hear those phrases in 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 isolation, they kind of, like, can be 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 abrasive sounding because there's, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, a lot of shame and stigma, there 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 have for thousands of years around 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 menstruation and, you know, women 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 often are kind of reduced by patriarchy 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to, like, birthing people in a sense, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 right? So, I feel like that there's, like, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 some grain of something I can sympathize 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with her in terms of having a visceral, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 negative reaction to these phrases. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I feel like anyone who takes a second 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to cool down, understand the context 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 of the phrase, will see that's clearly 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 not the intention. They know that it's 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 going to have an emotional effect for a 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 - lot of women to see those phrases. - Matt: Mhmm 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so, they kind of decontextualize it 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and blast it onto Twitter