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hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit

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Fruity, the show where we think that you

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should never live in the closet, Harry,

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even if the woman who created you changes 
her mind.

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If you would like to support the show

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or perhaps want a little bit more of the

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show, we are on Patreon and by the time

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this episode is up, it'll be around the

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same time that I upload March's deep dive

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on Patreon, which I do every month

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and this month it is on the wokeness of

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Sydney Sweeney, the right just figured

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out who Sydney Sweeney is because

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they saw her on SNL and they never watched

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Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is

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causing a freakout of epic proportions.

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So we're going to do a little analysis

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of a woman's body, which is something

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I'm fairly new to.

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So, you know, wish me luck.

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Today we are joined, once again, by

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someone I'm honored to call a friend

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of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may

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know her online, ContraPoints is, an

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ex-philosopher, she is a youtuber

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but I think calling her a youtuber

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is kind of diminutive to her craft.

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She puts out a couple feature film length

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videos a year that you've probably

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watched but if you haven't, you really

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should go check those out.

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She talks about philosophy, sex and

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gender, and capitalism, and twilight.

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Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity.

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Thank you much for having me back on.

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I am excited to be here again.

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I'm honored to be a friend of the show.

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I'm honored to have you as a friend

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of the show. So, a couple weeks ago

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J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a

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little Holocaust denial.

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She does Holocaust denial a little from

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time to time, (laughter) yeah.

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It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings

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wasn't always on Twitter denying

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that, uh, queer people were persecuted in

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the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings

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was a universally beloved children's

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author who taught every kid that there

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was magic inside of them no matter how

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cast out they may feel. Today, though,

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how would you characterize her position

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in the culture today?

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Well, her position in the culture is

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kind of weirdly split, right, cause on

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the one hand, there is her continuing

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legacy as the author of the wizard books

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and on the other hand, there's like

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almost her entire public persona, that

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which we mostly experience through Twitter

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which is basically obsessive bigotry

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towards trans people. That's become

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sort of her definitive thing, right?

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I think that people who don't follow this

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kind of don't understand the extent of it

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because, you know, I don't know, people

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throw around like all kinds of accusations

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on Twitter, so it's easy to think that

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this is some kind of internet drama

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blown out of proportion. But what you're

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missing is that if you have not been

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paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter

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for the last, at this point, we're

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talking about four or five years, which

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is a long time. Like, she's basically used

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her platform more often than not to do

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trans-bashing. There's a reason why that

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this gets talked about so much because,

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I mean, she's one of the most famous

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authors in the world with an enormous

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platform, and she's just using it

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constantly to target this small and,

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like, already besieged, minority of people

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who are facing, like, all kinds of, like,

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legislative and cultural backlash in

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the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really

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devastating (chuckle) that an author

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that, that's this influential is also,

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like, this obsessively devoted to

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persecute, you know, to contributing

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to the persecution of this group of

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people, who's already so harassed.

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But it's also, I don't know, it's also

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kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in

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it's own right it's kind of like another

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reason I feel like we're drawn to this

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maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly

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fascinating. How does this happen?

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Like, how do we go from, like, the

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Gryffindor common room and, you know,

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Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged

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rants about the transexuals. It's weird.

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It, it is weird and I think also, I mean,

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yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter

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right now and scroll through her feed,

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it is literal years of talking every

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single day, almost exclusively, about

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transgender people, for years.

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Which I think is the type of behavior

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we associate, with like boomer facebook

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moms, and then I guess in a sense, she

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kind of would have been that, if she

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hadn't become a billionaire and one of

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the most famous and beloved children's

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authors of all time. But she is those

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things and the idea of her behaving the

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way, like, our homophobic aunt does

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or whatever, but like from some castle

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in the U.K., is just like a very jarring

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image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes

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it really well, right, like, it is, like,

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your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post

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except on a platform with millions of

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people as the audience. I feel like we

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as a society, have, like, yet to know how

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to deal with this type of thing cause

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J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it.

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I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled

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a little bit in some similar forms of

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bigotry with a (inaudible) or even

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larger platform. But I feel like what's

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unique about J.K. Rowling is that

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she's, like, single mindedly focused on

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trans people as this one issue.

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(Matt) So she wasn't always this way,

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though and what we're gonna do today

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is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is

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a valuable case study in the worm hole

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that transphobia is. The way that it

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can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling

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and so many millions of other people

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as a portal into the broader world

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of right-wing ideology that gets pretty

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scary pretty quickly. We're gonna

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try to understand why transphobia, and

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I think especially when it's cloaked,

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no pun intended, as a progressive feminist

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cause and especially effective

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gateway into the alt right. One day

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you're reminding people that you

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just like to be preferred to as a woman

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and that you are a woman and then,

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you know, the next day you are

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participating in Holocaust denial. It can

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happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases.

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(Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin

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this story I wanna go back to 2019

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to the first tweet that I remember

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seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into

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the anti-trans movement, which at the

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beginning was very tepid. I am going to

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send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress

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however you please. Call yourself

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whatever you like. Sleep with any

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consenting adult who'll have you.

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Live your best life in peace and security.

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But force women out of their jobs for

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stating that sex is real? Hashtag I

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stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not

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a drill." (Matt) So what was the

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context of this one?

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(Natalie) So, the context is that there

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was a English consultant named

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Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't

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fired but her contract was not

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renewed because she had, like, refused

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to use the correct pronouns for a trans

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coworker or something along those lines.

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And a lot of so called "gender-critical",

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that is "transphobic", people in the U.K.

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decided to turn this into a celebrated

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cause, they, you know, rallied behind

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this hashtag "I stand with maya".

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The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't

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have to submit to gender ideology by,

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you know, using the correct pronouns

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for trans people in the work place or

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whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling

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decided to join this discourse

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officially. She decided to jump in on

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the side of people who think that it's

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terribly oppressive to have to use

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the correct pronouns for a trans person.

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And I guess at first, you know, there was

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some ambiguity because you could be

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like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe

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she just believes in free speech, and she

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thinks that, you know, that people

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shouldn't be fired for having different

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opinions." (inaudible) okay, like, at

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first you could sort of plausibly think

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that maybe, given the benefit of the

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doubt, that's why she was getting

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involved in this. But, like, to people who

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kind of know the pattern that

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transphobia takes place, we all pretty

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much knew that, "Oh, okay she really

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is transphobic behind the scenes".

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Like, there is no way that you would

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-go decide to die on this hill unless
- Matt: Hmm.

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you already were. At least that's what I

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think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling

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was at her most dangerous in 2019 and

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in 2020 because of the stuff she was

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saying seems kind of plausible and

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reasonable to the average person, you

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know. And so, there's this kind of like

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clever selection of which topics to

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get behind, right, instead of just,

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I don't know, calling trans women "men"

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in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's

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defending the "right" of people to not

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use the correct pronouns if they don't

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agree, right?. (inaudible) this people

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kind of hedge in this way, like, when

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they have a kind of like bigoted opinion

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instead of just stating it out, right.

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They sort of defend their right to have

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-that opinion.
- Matt: Mhmm.

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So, that was very much with this thing

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with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like

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she's not saying something sort of

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directly transphobic, but she is kind of

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indirectly getting there by being like,

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"I am going to publicly champion Maya's

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right to be transphobic. "

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(Matt) I feel like in the early days

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she did so much of this plausible,

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deniability stuff where it's like, you

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know, "I'm just saying sex is real".

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Right? And the average person who

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isn't, like, a terminally online queer

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is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real,

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whatever, like, who cares."

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You know? It's like not a big deal.

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(Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective

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early on at kind of like deciding what

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it was that she thought people

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were mad about, right? And so she

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framed the conversation, "Oh here's why

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I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting

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backlash because I said quote on quote

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'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems

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like if you believe her account of what

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people are mad about, then it sounds like

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everyone whose mad is unreasonable

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because they are mad at her for taking

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this kind of - taking what? An abstract,

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philosophical position about the

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metaphysics of biological sex? Like,

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is that what people are mad about?

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No, right? It's of course not that

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because she is intervening in this

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social and political debate, right,

265
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on the side that wants trans people

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functionally not to exist in public

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life, or not to be acknowledged in

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public life. So, that is what people

269
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are mad about, right? But early on,

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I think she was able to kind of

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frame her position as being this

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like, I don't know, almost philosophical

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position about the reality of sex or

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something, you know? That is what she

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wanted to make it sound like instead of

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a political position about the place of

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transgender people in society.

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When you first saw that tweet were, like,

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alarm bells ringing?

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Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point

281
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I was like, yeah I basically internally

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thought there was like a nine

283
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hundred and ninety-nine out of

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one thousand percent chance that

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-it's, as people say, over, right? 
-Matt: (laughter) Right

286
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It's so over, right? Like I already

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basically already kind of knew that.

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But I also kind of knew that, like,

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well, most people aren't gonna notice

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that it's over until she says something

291
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more explicit.

292
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Until she's doing Holocaust denial.

293
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Until she's doing Holocaust denial,

294
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exactly. But, of course, I've seen

295
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enough people who kind of start this way

296
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with this flirtation with bigotry where

297
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stage one is usually like, "Well I

298
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support the right for people to be bigots"

299
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Like, I don't like that there's this,

300
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like, cancel culture, whatever politically

301
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correct - you can't say anything anymore.

302
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Like, that's usually the prelude to a

303
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bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of

304
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like a softer way of getting a foot

305
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in the door. Like, you're not necessarily

306
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committing yourself to saying anything

307
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bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right

308
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of people to say that and you don't

309
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like how, you know, how vicious people

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are being towards people who are getting

311
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criticized for saying more bigoted things.

312
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In retrospect, it's clear that she's

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preparing the way to be the one saying

314
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those bigoted things herself.

315
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For a while longer, well into 2020,

316
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she, like, continues this road of

317
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like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to

318
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send you another thread.

319
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It's funny how I know all of these

320
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-like, by heart practically
-Matt: Oh (laughter)

321
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-It's like song lyrics (laughter)
-Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar

322
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-of the things she has said about
-Matt: (laughing)

323
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trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes,

324
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-tweet seven, verse three".
-Matt: (wheezes)

325
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I know, cause, like, we've read these

326
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-f***ing tweets so many times
-Natalie: I know,

327
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the last four years has been

328
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dominated by having to read these

329
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terrible opinions again and again.

330
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This is, honestly, no one should be

331
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allowed to get this famous. It's too

332
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dangerous.

333
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(laughter)

334
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Okay, but for the normal people listening

335
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who aren't so online, do you want to read

336
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what she tweeted on June 6, I believe,

337
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2020?

338
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(Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me

339
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reading from the book of Rowling,

340
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chapter six (laughter).

341
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Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no

342
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same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real,

343
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the lived reality of women globally

344
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is erased. I know and love trans people,

345
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but erasing the concept of sex removes

346
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the ability of many to meaningfully

347
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discuss their lives. It isn't hate to

348
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speak the truth."

349
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Tweet two, "The idea that women like me,

350
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who've been empathetic to trans people

351
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for decades, feeling kinship because

352
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they're vulnerable in the same way

353
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as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate'

354
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trans people because they think sex is

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
real and has lived consequences -

356
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(English): it is a nonsense."

357
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-Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I 
-Matt: (laughter)

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing

359
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-it in an English accent.
-Matt: (laughing)

360
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(Natalie) I'm gonna switch to

361
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doing an English accent for the last

362
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one because I feel like, I just feel like

363
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(English) "I respect every trans person's

364
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right to live any way that feels

365
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authentic and comfortable to them.

366
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I'd march with you if you were

367
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discriminated against on the basis

368
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of being trans. At the same time, my

369
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life has been shaped by being female.

370
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I do not believe it's hateful to say so."

371
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(Matt) "I'd march with you if you were

372
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being discriminated against."

373
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(Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red

374
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flag, right? And this was, like, the

375
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same month that the U.S., like, Donald

376
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Trump had, like, announced, like, an

377
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intention to, like, ban trans healthcare.

378
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Yes.

379
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The notion that, like, discrimination

380
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against trans people is this, like,

381
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hypothetical thing that might occur in

382
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the future, right?

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If ever there was a trans person who

384
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faced bigotry on the basis of their

385
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identity, I would stand up for them. But

386
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that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just

387
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-not, I'm not standing up
-(Natalie) Yeah, right.

388
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No one's ever been discriminated against

389
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for being trans. But, like, if it does

390
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happen, I'll march with you.

391
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But, okay, first of all, by the way, these

392
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tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes

393
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- and people were like, 
- Natalie: Yes.

394
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"Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like

395
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again, a normal person who isn't super

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
online, and, I mean, you know, from

397
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the queer and pro-trans end, but also

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from, like, the super anti-trans end.

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like if you aren't a part of either of

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
those groups, you're reading this

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and are like, "What the f*** is she

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
talking about? Like what is this 'sex

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is real' thing?" Like, what is she

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
talking about?

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's a weird argument, right? Because

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it seems on the surface like it's a

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
linguistic point that she's trying to

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
make, right? There's this idea, like she

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
says, quote, "If we get rid of the

410
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concept of sex that removes the

411
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ability of many to discuss their lives."

412
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Okay, this is what I think the assumption

413
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is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that

414
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trans people are who they say they

415
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are, then that means that none of

416
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the rest of us can talk about how gender

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has impacted our lives, right? In other

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
words, think of a trans, is a woman, then

419
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I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can

420
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never talk about the way that I have

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
been discriminated against for being

422
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a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
oppression olympics almost kind of

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- argument, where it's like 
- Matt: Mmm

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there can only be one oppressed group,

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right? And if we talk about how, you

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
know, there's no way to include trans

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people as a valid concept without sort of

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
somehow, like, deleting or erasing the

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
entire concept of women. Which, I mean,

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it doesn't make any sense, right?

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
an example. Okay what does it mean to

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she'll use the example of, like, okay,

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
some hospital somewhere, on a piece of

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
person" instead of "pregnant woman".

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Why? Because there is transgender men who

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
can and have gotten pregnant. And so,

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
saying "pregnant people" is a more, like,

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even if you find that to be an awkward

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
phrase that is going to help trans men

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who need reproductive healthcare

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that, you know, conventionally would be

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"women's health", right? I just don't

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
understand why making it inclusive to

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transgender men somehow, like, deletes

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the concept of women from existence.

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
any sense to me. I feel like it's, like,

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a weird pretext for being prejudicial.

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-It's just such a lie. I mean, you see
-Natalie: Yeah.

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this a lot with Turph's trans

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
exclusionary radical feminists. It's like

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the arm of quote on quote, "feminism"

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is basically just defined by

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transphobia. Especially towards trans

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
women.

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yeah, I don't even know if I would say

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that it's especially towards trans women.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I would say that there is especially

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
vitriolic towards trans women

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- and they kind of vilify.
- Matt: Mmm

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Trans women are sort of cast as, like,

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
dangerous predators. But trans men, I

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
feel like, the way that a lot of, like,

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans men as a quite reprehensible I

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- think, too. Like, usually the idea 
- Matt: Mmm

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is, like, trans men are like confused

473
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girls who've been tricked by, like, the

474
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medical establishment, like, the evil

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cabal of endocrinologist who have, like,

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls

477
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into thinking that they're men. Which, of

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
course, is not how the healthcare system

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
works at all. Like, you really have to

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
one is persuading you to do this. In

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
telling you not to. So, the idea that

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans men or that any kind of assigned

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
female at birth trans person is this sort

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like,

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's not vilification to the extent that

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they've vilified trans women as dangerous

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
predators, but it's in tantalizing in a

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
way that I think can be just as harmful

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in its consequences, right? When someone

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
your own body because you're too confused

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and childish." Like, you know, that has

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
devastating consequences which we see.

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Any feminist should be aware of how this

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
works cause this is what they say about

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
abortion; it's what they about

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
contraception; it's what they say about

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
women's health in general. "Shut up,

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
little girl," right, "You can't make

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
decisions about your body. We'll do it

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K.

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rowling is essentially saying to trans

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
men.

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(inaudible) especially towards trans men

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do this like, "We're loosing our lesbians.

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They're all becoming trans men thing."

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Which that as a refrain, I just don't

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
understand at all because, like,

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
statistically when you look at, like,

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the number of gen Z people who are

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
coming out as queer, under every single

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
one of the letters, it's higher in all

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of them.
-(Natalie) Right.

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like there are more out lesbians today

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than there have ever been.

518
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(stammers) Yes, there's never been more

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-lesbians, like, yeah 
- Matt: (laughs) And to be clear

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I love that (laughs)

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah.

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No, I mean, I feel like it comes from,

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's like a very, like, selfish, like,

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
childish perspective. It's almost like,

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"No don't transition, you're so sexy aha,"

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind
- Matt: Yeah (laughs)

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of, like, (stammers) and some gay women

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do say this about trans men. Like,

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"No, all the butch women are

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transitioning, like, I wanted to f***

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
them before, no!" And it's like, okay,

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
don't have to live their lives in

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
accordance with what you find sexually

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
attractive. Like, again, as a woman

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(stammers) you should know this, right?

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- you should know that what you're 
- Matt: Yeah

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
doing, what you're speaking about someone

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as if your sexual attraction to them

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
entitles you to their living a certain

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
way. You should know why that's bad and

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
why that feels violating and why that robs

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
someone of autonomy, right?

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And with Turphs and this whole thing of,

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, "they're erasing the linguistic

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
concept of a woman." It's like (sighs)

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- what world do you have to live in
- (Natalie) Yeah.

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for that to feel like the truth? And

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with these conversations I'm very careful

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who I disagree with entirely on so many

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
police her understanding of her own trauma

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- as it pretends to being a woman.
- (Natalie) Yeah.

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, I still, like, we all live in

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the same society, and it's like, I'm

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just very hard pressed to think that the

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
word "woman" is going anywhere.

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Natalie scoffs)

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's like, I don't think that, because on

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
some, like, in some medical papers that

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are being published, that they're using

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the terms "people who get pregnant,"

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"people who get periods," I don't think

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that means that, like, they're gonna start

567
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
calling you in casual conversation

568
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"a person who menstruates."

569
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No. And no one talks like that way.

570
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've never heard of a trans person

571
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
casually refer to cis woman as

572
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"people who menstruate." Because the

573
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
entire point of that term is that it

574
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
doesn't just refer to cis women.

575
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are people who have a sort of

576
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
visceral reaction to it, which I

577
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
guess I can kind of understand. Like,

578
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think if you were to make, like, an

579
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
intelligible, like, understandable

580
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems

581
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be saying in these tweets, I mean I

582
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
think you could put it like this,

583
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"For most women, the way that they are

584
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
oppressed in society is in fact

585
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
intertwined with biology," right? With

586
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
women's reproductive role, as most women

587
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are capable of getting pregnant. And

588
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that becomes a area where women's lives

589
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are policed, right? It's interesting how

590
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
J.K. Rowling never talks about this,

591
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- right? Not a word, not a word 
- Matt: Mhmm

592
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about Roe v Wade being overturned

593
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the United States. For most women,

594
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
biology and misogyny, they certainly are

595
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- intertwined. And there's a case to be
- Matt: Yeah.

596
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
made that anyone who's assigned

597
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
female at birth does sort of belong

598
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to a oppressed class by virtue of

599
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
their reproductive capability. Especially,

600
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, you know, the sensitivity around,

601
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, you know, "same people who

602
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
menstruate" or "people who give birth."

603
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I feel like if you hear those phrases in

604
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
isolation, they kind of, like, can be

605
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
abrasive sounding because there's,

606
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, a lot of shame and stigma, there

607
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have for thousands of years around

608
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
menstruation and, you know, women

609
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
often are kind of reduced by patriarchy

610
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to, like, birthing people in a sense,

611
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right? So, I feel like that there's, like,

612
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
some grain of something I can sympathize

613
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with her in terms of having a visceral,

614
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
negative reaction to these phrases.

615
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I feel like anyone who takes a second

616
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to cool down, understand the context

617
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the phrase, will see that's clearly

618
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not the intention. They know that it's

619
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
going to have an emotional effect for a

620
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
- lot of women to see those phrases. 
- Matt: Mhmm

621
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, they kind of decontextualize it

622
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and blast it onto Twitter