9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Fruity, the show where we think that you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 should never live in the closet, Harry, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 even if the woman who created you changes [br]her mind. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you would like to support the show 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or perhaps want a little bit more of the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 show, we are on Patreon and by the time 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this episode is up, it'll be around the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 same time that I upload March's deep dive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on Patreon, which I do every month 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and this month it is on the wokeness of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sydney Sweeney, the right just figured 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 out who Sydney Sweeney is because 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they saw her on SNL and they never watched 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 causing a freakout of epic proportions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So we're going to do a little analysis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of a woman's body, which is something 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm fairly new to. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, you know, wish me luck. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Today we are joined, once again, by 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 someone I'm honored to call a friend 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 know her online, ContraPoints is, an 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ex-philosopher, she is a youtuber 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but I think calling her a youtuber 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is kind of diminutive to her craft. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She puts out a couple feature film length 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 videos a year that you've probably 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 watched but if you haven't, you really 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 should go check those out. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She talks about philosophy, sex and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 gender, and capitalism, and twilight. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Thank you much for having me back on. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I am excited to be here again. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm honored to be a friend of the show. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm honored to have you as a friend 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the show. So, a couple weeks ago 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 little Holocaust denial. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She does Holocaust denial a little from 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 time to time, (laughter) yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wasn't always on Twitter denying 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that, uh, queer people were persecuted in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was a universally beloved children's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 author who taught every kid that there 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was magic inside of them no matter how 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cast out they may feel. Today, though, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how would you characterize her position 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the culture today? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Well, her position in the culture is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of weirdly split, right, cause on 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the one hand, there is her continuing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 legacy as the author of the wizard books 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and on the other hand, there's like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 almost her entire public persona, that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which we mostly experience through Twitter 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which is basically obsessive bigotry 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 towards trans people. That's become 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 sort of her definitive thing, right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that people who don't follow this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of don't understand the extent of it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because, you know, I don't know, people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 throw around like all kinds of accusations 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on Twitter, so it's easy to think that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this is some kind of internet drama 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 blown out of proportion. But what you're 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 missing is that if you have not been 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for the last, at this point, we're 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 talking about four or five years, which 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is a long time. Like, she's basically used 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 her platform more often than not to do 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans-bashing. There's a reason why that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this gets talked about so much because, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, she's one of the most famous 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 authors in the world with an enormous 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 platform, and she's just using it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 constantly to target this small and, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, already besieged, minority of people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who are facing, like, all kinds of, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 legislative and cultural backlash in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 devastating (chuckle) that an author 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that, that's this influential is also, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, this obsessively devoted to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 persecute, you know, to contributing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the persecution of this group of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people, who's already so harassed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But it's also, I don't know, it's also 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's own right it's kind of like another 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 reason I feel like we're drawn to this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 fascinating. How does this happen? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, how do we go from, like, the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Gryffindor common room and, you know, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 rants about the transexuals. It's weird. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It, it is weird and I think also, I mean, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 right now and scroll through her feed, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it is literal years of talking every 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 single day, almost exclusively, about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transgender people, for years. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Which I think is the type of behavior 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we associate, with like boomer facebook 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 moms, and then I guess in a sense, she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of would have been that, if she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 hadn't become a billionaire and one of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the most famous and beloved children's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 authors of all time. But she is those 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 things and the idea of her behaving the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 way, like, our homophobic aunt does 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or whatever, but like from some castle 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the U.K., is just like a very jarring 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it really well, right, like, it is, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 except on a platform with millions of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people as the audience. I feel like we 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as a society, have, like, yet to know how 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to deal with this type of thing cause 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a little bit in some similar forms of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 bigotry with a (inaudible) or even 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 larger platform. But I feel like what's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 unique about J.K. Rowling is that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she's, like, single mindedly focused on 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans people as this one issue. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Matt) So she wasn't always this way, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 though and what we're gonna do today 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a valuable case study in the worm hole 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that transphobia is. The way that it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and so many millions of other people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as a portal into the broader world 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of right-wing ideology that gets pretty 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 scary pretty quickly. We're gonna 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 try to understand why transphobia, and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think especially when it's cloaked, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 no pun intended, as a progressive feminist 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cause and especially effective 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 gateway into the alt right. One day 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you're reminding people that you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 just like to be preferred to as a woman 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that you are a woman and then, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you know, the next day you are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 participating in Holocaust denial. It can 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this story I wanna go back to 2019 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the first tweet that I remember 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the anti-trans movement, which at the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 beginning was very tepid. I am going to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 however you please. Call yourself 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whatever you like. Sleep with any 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 consenting adult who'll have you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Live your best life in peace and security. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But force women out of their jobs for 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 stating that sex is real? Hashtag I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a drill." (Matt) So what was the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 context of this one? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie) So, the context is that there 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was a English consultant named 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 fired but her contract was not 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 renewed because she had, like, refused 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to use the correct pronouns for a trans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 coworker or something along those lines. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And a lot of so called "gender-critical", 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is "transphobic", people in the U.K. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 decided to turn this into a celebrated 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cause, they, you know, rallied behind 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this hashtag "I stand with maya". 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have to submit to gender ideology by, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you know, using the correct pronouns 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for trans people in the work place or 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 decided to join this discourse 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 officially. She decided to jump in on 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the side of people who think that it's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 terribly oppressive to have to use 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the correct pronouns for a trans person. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I guess at first, you know, there was 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some ambiguity because you could be 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she just believes in free speech, and she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 thinks that, you know, that people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 shouldn't be fired for having different 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 opinions." (inaudible) okay, like, at 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 first you could sort of plausibly think 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that maybe, given the benefit of the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doubt, that's why she was getting 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 involved in this. But, like, to people who 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of know the pattern that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transphobia takes place, we all pretty 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 much knew that, "Oh, okay she really 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is transphobic behind the scenes". 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, there is no way that you would 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -go decide to die on this hill unless[br]- Matt: Hmm. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you already were. At least that's what I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was at her most dangerous in 2019 and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in 2020 because of the stuff she was 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 saying seems kind of plausible and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 reasonable to the average person, you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 know. And so, there's this kind of like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 clever selection of which topics to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 get behind, right, instead of just, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't know, calling trans women "men" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 defending the "right" of people to not 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 use the correct pronouns if they don't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 agree, right?. (inaudible) this people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 kind of hedge in this way, like, when 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they have a kind of like bigoted opinion 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 instead of just stating it out, right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They sort of defend their right to have 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -that opinion.[br]- Matt: Mhmm. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, that was very much with this thing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she's not saying something sort of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 directly transphobic, but she is kind of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 indirectly getting there by being like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "I am going to publicly champion Maya's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 right to be transphobic. " 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Matt) I feel like in the early days 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she did so much of this plausible, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 deniability stuff where it's like, you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 know, "I'm just saying sex is real". 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Right? And the average person who 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 isn't, like, a terminally online queer 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whatever, like, who cares." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You know? It's like not a big deal. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 early on at kind of like deciding what 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it was that she thought people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 were mad about, right? And so she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 framed the conversation, "Oh here's why 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 backlash because I said quote on quote 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like if you believe her account of what 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people are mad about, then it sounds like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 everyone whose mad is unreasonable 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because they are mad at her for taking 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this kind of - taking what? An abstract, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 philosophical position about the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 metaphysics of biological sex? Like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that what people are mad about? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No, right? It's of course not that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because she is intervening in this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 social and political debate, right, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on the side that wants trans people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 functionally not to exist in public 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 life, or not to be acknowledged in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 public life. So, that is what people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are mad about, right? But early on, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think she was able to kind of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 frame her position as being this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, I don't know, almost philosophical 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 position about the reality of sex or 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 something, you know? That is what she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wanted to make it sound like instead of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a political position about the place of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transgender people in society. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When you first saw that tweet were, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 alarm bells ringing? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was like, yeah I basically internally 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 thought there was like a nine 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 hundred and ninety-nine out of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 one thousand percent chance that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -it's, as people say, over, right? [br]-Matt: (laughter) Right 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's so over, right? Like I already 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 basically already kind of knew that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But I also kind of knew that, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 well, most people aren't gonna notice 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that it's over until she says something 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 more explicit. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Until she's doing Holocaust denial. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Until she's doing Holocaust denial, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 exactly. But, of course, I've seen 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 enough people who kind of start this way 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with this flirtation with bigotry where 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 stage one is usually like, "Well I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 support the right for people to be bigots" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, I don't like that there's this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, cancel culture, whatever politically 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 correct - you can't say anything anymore. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, that's usually the prelude to a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like a softer way of getting a foot 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the door. Like, you're not necessarily 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 committing yourself to saying anything 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of people to say that and you don't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like how, you know, how vicious people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are being towards people who are getting 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 criticized for saying more bigoted things. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In retrospect, it's clear that she's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 preparing the way to be the one saying 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 those bigoted things herself. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 For a while longer, well into 2020, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she, like, continues this road of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 send you another thread. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's funny how I know all of these 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -like, by heart practically[br]-Matt: Oh (laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -It's like song lyrics (laughter)[br]-Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -of the things she has said about[br]-Matt: (laughing) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -tweet seven, verse three".[br]-Matt: (wheezes) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I know, cause, like, we've read these 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -f***ing tweets so many times[br]-Natalie: I know, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the last four years has been 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 dominated by having to read these 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 terrible opinions again and again. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is, honestly, no one should be 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 allowed to get this famous. It's too 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 dangerous. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Okay, but for the normal people listening 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who aren't so online, do you want to read 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what she tweeted on June 6, I believe, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 2020? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 reading from the book of Rowling, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 chapter six (laughter). 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the lived reality of women globally 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is erased. I know and love trans people, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but erasing the concept of sex removes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the ability of many to meaningfully 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 discuss their lives. It isn't hate to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 speak the truth." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Tweet two, "The idea that women like me, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who've been empathetic to trans people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for decades, feeling kinship because 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they're vulnerable in the same way 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate' 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans people because they think sex is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 real and has lived consequences - 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (English): it is a nonsense." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I [br]-Matt: (laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -it in an English accent.[br]-Matt: (laughing) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie) I'm gonna switch to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doing an English accent for the last 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 one because I feel like, I just feel like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (English) "I respect every trans person's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 right to live any way that feels 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 authentic and comfortable to them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'd march with you if you were 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 discriminated against on the basis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of being trans. At the same time, my 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 life has been shaped by being female. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I do not believe it's hateful to say so." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Matt) "I'd march with you if you were 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 being discriminated against." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 flag, right? And this was, like, the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 same month that the U.S., like, Donald 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Trump had, like, announced, like, an 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 intention to, like, ban trans healthcare. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Yes. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The notion that, like, discrimination 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 against trans people is this, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 hypothetical thing that might occur in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the future, right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If ever there was a trans person who 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 faced bigotry on the basis of their 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 identity, I would stand up for them. But 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -not, I'm not standing up[br]-(Natalie) Yeah, right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No one's ever been discriminated against 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for being trans. But, like, if it does 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 happen, I'll march with you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But, okay, first of all, by the way, these 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - and people were like, [br]- Natalie: Yes. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 again, a normal person who isn't super 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 online, and, I mean, you know, from 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the queer and pro-trans end, but also 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from, like, the super anti-trans end. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like if you aren't a part of either of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 those groups, you're reading this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and are like, "What the f*** is she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 talking about? Like what is this 'sex 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is real' thing?" Like, what is she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 talking about? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's a weird argument, right? Because 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it seems on the surface like it's a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 linguistic point that she's trying to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 make, right? There's this idea, like she 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 says, quote, "If we get rid of the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 concept of sex that removes the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ability of many to discuss their lives." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Okay, this is what I think the assumption 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans people are who they say they 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are, then that means that none of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the rest of us can talk about how gender 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has impacted our lives, right? In other 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 words, think of a trans, is a woman, then 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 never talk about the way that I have 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 been discriminated against for being 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 oppression olympics almost kind of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - argument, where it's like [br]- Matt: Mmm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there can only be one oppressed group, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 right? And if we talk about how, you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 know, there's no way to include trans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people as a valid concept without sort of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 somehow, like, deleting or erasing the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 entire concept of women. Which, I mean, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it doesn't make any sense, right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an example. Okay what does it mean to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 she'll use the example of, like, okay, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some hospital somewhere, on a piece of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 person" instead of "pregnant woman". 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Why? Because there is transgender men who 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 can and have gotten pregnant. And so, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 saying "pregnant people" is a more, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 even if you find that to be an awkward 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 phrase that is going to help trans men 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who need reproductive healthcare 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that, you know, conventionally would be 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "women's health", right? I just don't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 understand why making it inclusive to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transgender men somehow, like, deletes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the concept of women from existence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 any sense to me. I feel like it's, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a weird pretext for being prejudicial. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -It's just such a lie. I mean, you see[br]-Natalie: Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this a lot with Turph's trans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 exclusionary radical feminists. It's like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the arm of quote on quote, "feminism" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is basically just defined by 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transphobia. Especially towards trans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 women. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Yeah, I don't even know if I would say 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that it's especially towards trans women. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I would say that there is especially 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 vitriolic towards trans women 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - and they kind of vilify.[br]- Matt: Mmm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Trans women are sort of cast as, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 dangerous predators. But trans men, I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 feel like, the way that a lot of, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans men as a quite reprehensible I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - think, too. Like, usually the idea [br]- Matt: Mmm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is, like, trans men are like confused 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 girls who've been tricked by, like, the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 medical establishment, like, the evil 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cabal of endocrinologist who have, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 into thinking that they're men. Which, of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 course, is not how the healthcare system 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 works at all. Like, you really have to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 one is persuading you to do this. In 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 telling you not to. So, the idea that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 trans men or that any kind of assigned 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 female at birth trans person is this sort 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's not vilification to the extent that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they've vilified trans women as dangerous 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 predators, but it's in tantalizing in a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 way that I think can be just as harmful 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in its consequences, right? When someone 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 your own body because you're too confused 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and childish." Like, you know, that has 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 devastating consequences which we see. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Any feminist should be aware of how this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 works cause this is what they say about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 abortion; it's what they about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 contraception; it's what they say about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 women's health in general. "Shut up, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 little girl," right, "You can't make 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 decisions about your body. We'll do it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Rowling is essentially saying to trans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 men. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (inaudible) especially towards trans men 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do this like, "We're loosing our lesbians. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They're all becoming trans men thing." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Which that as a refrain, I just don't 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 understand at all because, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 statistically when you look at, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the number of gen Z people who are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 coming out as queer, under every single 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 one of the letters, it's higher in all 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of them.[br]-(Natalie) Right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like there are more out lesbians today 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than there have ever been. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (stammers) Yes, there's never been more 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 -lesbians, like, yeah [br]- Matt: (laughs) And to be clear 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I love that (laughs) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No, I mean, I feel like it comes from, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's like a very, like, selfish, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 childish perspective. It's almost like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "No don't transition, you're so sexy aha," 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind[br]- Matt: Yeah (laughs) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of, like, (stammers) and some gay women 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do say this about trans men. Like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "No, all the butch women are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 transitioning, like, I wanted to f*** 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 them before, no!" And it's like, okay, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 don't have to live their lives in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 accordance with what you find sexually 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 attractive. Like, again, as a woman 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (stammers) you should know this, right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - you should know that what you're [br]- Matt: Yeah 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doing, what you're speaking about someone 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as if your sexual attraction to them 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 entitles you to their living a certain 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 way. You should know why that's bad and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 why that feels violating and why that robs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 someone of autonomy, right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And with Turphs and this whole thing of, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, "they're erasing the linguistic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 concept of a woman." It's like (sighs) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - what world do you have to live in[br]- (Natalie) Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for that to feel like the truth? And 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with these conversations I'm very careful 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who I disagree with entirely on so many 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 police her understanding of her own trauma 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - as it pretends to being a woman.[br]- (Natalie) Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 However, I still, like, we all live in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the same society, and it's like, I'm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 just very hard pressed to think that the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 word "woman" is going anywhere. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Natalie scoffs) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's like, I don't think that, because on 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some, like, in some medical papers that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are being published, that they're using 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the terms "people who get pregnant," 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "people who get periods," I don't think 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that means that, like, they're gonna start 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 calling you in casual conversation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "a person who menstruates." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No. And no one talks like that way. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I've never heard of a trans person 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 casually refer to cis woman as 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "people who menstruate." Because the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 entire point of that term is that it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doesn't just refer to cis women. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are people who have a sort of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 visceral reaction to it, which I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 guess I can kind of understand. Like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think if you were to make, like, an 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 intelligible, like, understandable 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to be saying in these tweets, I mean I 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 think you could put it like this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "For most women, the way that they are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 oppressed in society is in fact 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 intertwined with biology," right? With 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 women's reproductive role, as most women 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are capable of getting pregnant. And 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that becomes a area where women's lives 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are policed, right? It's interesting how 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 J.K. Rowling never talks about this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - right? Not a word, not a word [br]- Matt: Mhmm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 about Roe v Wade being overturned 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the United States. For most women, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 biology and misogyny, they certainly are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - intertwined. And there's a case to be[br]- Matt: Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 made that anyone who's assigned 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 female at birth does sort of belong 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to a oppressed class by virtue of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 their reproductive capability. Especially, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, you know, the sensitivity around, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, you know, "same people who 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 menstruate" or "people who give birth." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I feel like if you hear those phrases in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 isolation, they kind of, like, can be 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 abrasive sounding because there's, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, a lot of shame and stigma, there 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have for thousands of years around 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 menstruation and, you know, women 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 often are kind of reduced by patriarchy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to, like, birthing people in a sense, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 right? So, I feel like that there's, like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some grain of something I can sympathize 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with her in terms of having a visceral, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 negative reaction to these phrases. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But I feel like anyone who takes a second 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to cool down, understand the context 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the phrase, will see that's clearly 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 not the intention. They know that it's 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 going to have an emotional effect for a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 - lot of women to see those phrases. [br]- Matt: Mhmm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And so, they kind of decontextualize it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and blast it onto Twitter