1
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit

2
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Fruity, the show where we think that you

3
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
should never live in the closet, Harry,

4
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even if the woman who created you changes 
her mind.

5
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you would like to support the show

6
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or perhaps want a little bit more of the

7
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
show, we are on Patreon and by the time

8
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this episode is up, it'll be around the

9
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
same time that I upload March's deep dive

10
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on Patreon, which I do every month

11
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this month it is on the wokeness of

12
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Sydney Sweeney, the right just figured

13
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
out who Sydney Sweeney is because

14
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they saw her on SNL and they never watched

15
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is

16
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
causing a freakout of epic proportions.

17
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we're going to do a little analysis

18
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of a woman's body, which is something

19
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm fairly new to.

20
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, you know, wish me luck.

21
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Today we are joined, once again, by

22
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
someone I'm honored to call a friend

23
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may

24
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
know her online, ContraPoints is, an

25
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ex-philosopher, she is a youtuber

26
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I think calling her a youtuber

27
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is kind of diminutive to her craft.

28
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She puts out a couple feature film length

29
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
videos a year that you've probably

30
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
watched but if you haven't, you really

31
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
should go check those out.

32
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She talks about philosophy, sex and

33
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
gender, and capitalism, and twilight.

34
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity.

35
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you much for having me back on.

36
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I am excited to be here again.

37
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm honored to be a friend of the show.

38
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm honored to have you as a friend

39
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the show. So, a couple weeks ago

40
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a

41
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
little Holocaust denial.

42
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She does Holocaust denial a little from

43
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
time to time, (laughter) yeah.

44
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings

45
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
wasn't always on Twitter denying

46
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that, uh, queer people were persecuted in

47
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings

48
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was a universally beloved children's

49
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
author who taught every kid that there

50
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was magic inside of them no matter how

51
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cast out they may feel. Today, though,

52
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how would you characterize her position

53
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the culture today?

54
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, her position in the culture is

55
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of weirdly split, right, cause on

56
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the one hand, there is her continuing

57
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
legacy as the author of the wizard books

58
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and on the other hand, there's like

59
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
almost her entire public persona, that

60
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which we mostly experience through Twitter

61
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is basically obsessive bigotry

62
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
towards trans people. That's become

63
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sort of her definitive thing, right?

64
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think that people who don't follow this

65
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of don't understand the extent of it

66
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because, you know, I don't know, people

67
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
throw around like all kinds of accusations

68
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on Twitter, so it's easy to think that

69
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this is some kind of internet drama

70
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
blown out of proportion. But what you're

71
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
missing is that if you have not been

72
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter

73
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the last, at this point, we're

74
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
talking about four or five years, which

75
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a long time. Like, she's basically used

76
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
her platform more often than not to do

77
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans-bashing. There's a reason why that

78
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this gets talked about so much because,

79
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, she's one of the most famous

80
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
authors in the world with an enormous

81
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
platform, and she's just using it

82
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
constantly to target this small and,

83
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, already besieged, minority of people

84
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who are facing, like, all kinds of, like,

85
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
legislative and cultural backlash in

86
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really

87
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
devastating (chuckle) that an author

88
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that, that's this influential is also,

89
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, this obsessively devoted to

90
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
persecute, you know, to contributing

91
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the persecution of this group of

92
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people, who's already so harassed.

93
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But it's also, I don't know, it's also

94
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in

95
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's own right it's kind of like another

96
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
reason I feel like we're drawn to this

97
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly

98
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
fascinating. How does this happen?

99
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, how do we go from, like, the

100
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Gryffindor common room and, you know,

101
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged

102
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rants about the transexuals. It's weird.

103
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It, it is weird and I think also, I mean,

104
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter

105
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right now and scroll through her feed,

106
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it is literal years of talking every

107
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
single day, almost exclusively, about

108
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transgender people, for years.

109
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Which I think is the type of behavior

110
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we associate, with like boomer facebook

111
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
moms, and then I guess in a sense, she

112
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of would have been that, if she

113
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
hadn't become a billionaire and one of

114
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the most famous and beloved children's

115
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
authors of all time. But she is those

116
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things and the idea of her behaving the

117
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
way, like, our homophobic aunt does

118
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or whatever, but like from some castle

119
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the U.K., is just like a very jarring

120
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes

121
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it really well, right, like, it is, like,

122
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post

123
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
except on a platform with millions of

124
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people as the audience. I feel like we

125
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as a society, have, like, yet to know how

126
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to deal with this type of thing cause

127
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it.

128
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled

129
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a little bit in some similar forms of

130
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
bigotry with a (inaudible) or even

131
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
larger platform. But I feel like what's

132
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
unique about J.K. Rowling is that

133
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she's, like, single mindedly focused on

134
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans people as this one issue.

135
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Matt) So she wasn't always this way,

136
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
though and what we're gonna do today

137
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is

138
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a valuable case study in the worm hole

139
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that transphobia is. The way that it

140
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling

141
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so many millions of other people

142
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as a portal into the broader world

143
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of right-wing ideology that gets pretty

144
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
scary pretty quickly. We're gonna

145
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
try to understand why transphobia, and

146
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think especially when it's cloaked,

147
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
no pun intended, as a progressive feminist

148
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cause and especially effective

149
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
gateway into the alt right. One day

150
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you're reminding people that you

151
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just like to be preferred to as a woman

152
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that you are a woman and then,

153
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, the next day you are

154
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
participating in Holocaust denial. It can

155
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases.

156
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin

157
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this story I wanna go back to 2019

158
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the first tweet that I remember

159
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into

160
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the anti-trans movement, which at the

161
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
beginning was very tepid. I am going to

162
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress

163
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
however you please. Call yourself

164
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whatever you like. Sleep with any

165
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
consenting adult who'll have you.

166
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Live your best life in peace and security.

167
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But force women out of their jobs for

168
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stating that sex is real? Hashtag I

169
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not

170
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a drill." (Matt) So what was the

171
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
context of this one?

172
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Natalie) So, the context is that there

173
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was a English consultant named

174
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't

175
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
fired but her contract was not

176
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
renewed because she had, like, refused

177
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to use the correct pronouns for a trans

178
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
coworker or something along those lines.

179
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And a lot of so called "gender-critical",

180
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is "transphobic", people in the U.K.

181
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
decided to turn this into a celebrated

182
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cause, they, you know, rallied behind

183
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this hashtag "I stand with maya".

184
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't

185
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have to submit to gender ideology by,

186
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, using the correct pronouns

187
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for trans people in the work place or

188
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling

189
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
decided to join this discourse

190
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
officially. She decided to jump in on

191
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the side of people who think that it's

192
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
terribly oppressive to have to use

193
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the correct pronouns for a trans person.

194
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I guess at first, you know, there was

195
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
some ambiguity because you could be

196
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe

197
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she just believes in free speech, and she

198
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
thinks that, you know, that people

199
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
shouldn't be fired for having different

200
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
opinions." (inaudible) okay, like, at

201
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
first you could sort of plausibly think

202
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that maybe, given the benefit of the

203
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
doubt, that's why she was getting

204
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
involved in this. But, like, to people who

205
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of know the pattern that

206
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transphobia takes place, we all pretty

207
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
much knew that, "Oh, okay she really

208
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is transphobic behind the scenes".

209
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, there is no way that you would

210
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-go decide to die on this hill unless
- Matt: Hmm.

211
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you already were. At least that's what I

212
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling

213
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was at her most dangerous in 2019 and

214
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in 2020 because of the stuff she was

215
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
saying seems kind of plausible and

216
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
reasonable to the average person, you

217
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
know. And so, there's this kind of like

218
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
clever selection of which topics to

219
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
get behind, right, instead of just,

220
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't know, calling trans women "men"

221
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's

222
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
defending the "right" of people to not

223
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
use the correct pronouns if they don't

224
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
agree, right?. (inaudible) this people

225
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kind of hedge in this way, like, when

226
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they have a kind of like bigoted opinion

227
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
instead of just stating it out, right.

228
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They sort of defend their right to have

229
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-that opinion.
- Matt: Mhmm.

230
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, that was very much with this thing

231
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like

232
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she's not saying something sort of

233
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
directly transphobic, but she is kind of

234
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
indirectly getting there by being like,

235
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"I am going to publicly champion Maya's

236
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right to be transphobic. "

237
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Matt) I feel like in the early days

238
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she did so much of this plausible,

239
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
deniability stuff where it's like, you

240
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
know, "I'm just saying sex is real".

241
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right? And the average person who

242
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
isn't, like, a terminally online queer

243
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real,

244
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whatever, like, who cares."

245
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know? It's like not a big deal.

246
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective

247
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
early on at kind of like deciding what

248
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it was that she thought people

249
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were mad about, right? And so she

250
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
framed the conversation, "Oh here's why

251
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting

252
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
backlash because I said quote on quote

253
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems

254
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like if you believe her account of what

255
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people are mad about, then it sounds like

256
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
everyone whose mad is unreasonable

257
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because they are mad at her for taking

258
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this kind of - taking what? An abstract,

259
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
philosophical position about the

260
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
metaphysics of biological sex? Like,

261
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that what people are mad about?

262
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No, right? It's of course not that

263
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because she is intervening in this

264
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
social and political debate, right,

265
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the side that wants trans people

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
functionally not to exist in public

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
life, or not to be acknowledged in

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
public life. So, that is what people

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are mad about, right? But early on,

270
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think she was able to kind of

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
frame her position as being this

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, I don't know, almost philosophical

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
position about the reality of sex or

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
something, you know? That is what she

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
wanted to make it sound like instead of

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a political position about the place of

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
transgender people in society.

278
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When you first saw that tweet were, like,

279
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
alarm bells ringing?

280
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was like, yeah I basically internally

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
thought there was like a nine

283
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
hundred and ninety-nine out of

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
one thousand percent chance that

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-it's, as people say, over, right? 
-Matt: (laughter) Right

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's so over, right? Like I already

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
basically already kind of knew that.

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I also kind of knew that, like,

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
well, most people aren't gonna notice

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that it's over until she says something

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
more explicit.

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Until she's doing Holocaust denial.

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Until she's doing Holocaust denial,

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
exactly. But, of course, I've seen

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
enough people who kind of start this way

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with this flirtation with bigotry where

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stage one is usually like, "Well I

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
support the right for people to be bigots"

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, I don't like that there's this,

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, cancel culture, whatever politically

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
correct - you can't say anything anymore.

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, that's usually the prelude to a

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like a softer way of getting a foot

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the door. Like, you're not necessarily

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
committing yourself to saying anything

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of people to say that and you don't

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like how, you know, how vicious people

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are being towards people who are getting

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
criticized for saying more bigoted things.

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In retrospect, it's clear that she's

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
preparing the way to be the one saying

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
those bigoted things herself.

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
For a while longer, well into 2020,

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
she, like, continues this road of

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
send you another thread.

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's funny how I know all of these

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-like, by heart practically
-Matt: Oh (laughter)

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-It's like song lyrics (laughter)
-Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-of the things she has said about
-Matt: (laughing)

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes,

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-tweet seven, verse three".
-Matt: (wheezes)

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I know, cause, like, we've read these

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-f***ing tweets so many times
-Natalie: I know,

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the last four years has been

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
dominated by having to read these

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
terrible opinions again and again.

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is, honestly, no one should be

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
allowed to get this famous. It's too

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
dangerous.

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(laughter)

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Okay, but for the normal people listening

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who aren't so online, do you want to read

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what she tweeted on June 6, I believe,

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
2020?

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
reading from the book of Rowling,

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
chapter six (laughter).

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real,

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the lived reality of women globally

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is erased. I know and love trans people,

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but erasing the concept of sex removes

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the ability of many to meaningfully

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
discuss their lives. It isn't hate to

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
speak the truth."

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Tweet two, "The idea that women like me,

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who've been empathetic to trans people

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for decades, feeling kinship because

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they're vulnerable in the same way

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate'

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
trans people because they think sex is

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
real and has lived consequences -

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it is a nonsense."

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel 
-Matt: (laughter)