Hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit
Fruity, the show where we think that you
should never live in the closet, Harry,
even if the woman who created you changes her mind.
If you would like to support the show
or perhaps want a little bit more of the
show, we are on Patreon and by the time
this episode is up, it'll be around the
same time that I upload March's deep dive
on Patreon, which I do every month
and this month it is on the wokeness of
Sydney Sweeney. The right just figured
out who Sydney Sweeney is because
they saw her on SNL and they never watched
Euphoria and her being hot is, uh, is
causing a freakout of epic proportions.
So we're going to do a little analysis
of a woman's body, which is something
I'm fairly new to.
So, you know, wish me luck.
Today we are joined, once again,
by someone I'm honored to call a friend
of the show, Natalie Wynn, or as you may
know her online, ContraPoints is, an
ex-philosopher, she is a YouTuber
but I think calling her a YouTuber
is kind of diminutive to her craft.
She puts out a couple feature film-length
videos a year that you've probably
watched but if you haven't, you really
should go check those out.
She talks about philosophy, and sex and
gender, and capitalism, and twilight
Natalie Wynn welcome back to A Bit Fruity.
Thank you much for having me back on.
I am excited to be here again.
I'm honored to be a friend of the show.
I'm honored to have you as a friend
of the show. So, a couple weeks ago
J.K. Rowling, she got caught up in a
little Holocaust denial.
She does Holocaust denial a little from
time to time, (laughter) yeah.
It wasn't always this way. J.K. Rowlings
wasn't always on Twitter denying
that, uh, queer people were persecuted in
the Holocaust. Until 2019, J.K. Rowlings
was a universally beloved children's
author who taught every kid that there
was magic inside of them no matter how
cast out they may feel. Today, though,
how would you characterize her position
in the culture today?
Well, her position in the culture is
kind of weirdly split, right, cause on
the one hand, there is her continuing
legacy as the author of the wizard books
and on the other hand, there's like
almost her entire public persona, that
which we mostly experience through Twitter
which is basically obsessive bigotry
towards trans people. That's become
sort of her definitive thing, right?
I think that people who don't follow this
kind of don't understand the extent of it
because, you know, I don't know, people
throw around like all kinds of accusations
on Twitter, so it's easy to think that
this is some kind of internet drama
blown out of proportion. But, what you're
missing is that if you have not been
paying attention to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
for the last, at this point, we're
talking about four or five years, which
is a long time. Like, she's basically used
her platform more often than not to do
trans-bashing. There's a reason why that
this gets talked about so much because,
I mean, she's one of the most famous
authors in the world with an enormous
platform, and she's just using it
constantly to target this small and,
like, already besieged, minority of people
who are facing, like, all kinds of, like,
legislative and cultural backlash in
the U.S. and the U.K. So it's like really
devastating (chuckle) that an author
that, that's this influential is also,
like, this obsessively devoted to
persecute, you know, to contributing
to the persecution of this group of
people, who's already so harassed.
But it's also, I don't know, it's also
kind of a bizarre spectacle, like, in
it's own right it's kind of like another
reason I feel like we're drawn to this
maybe, is that it's kind of like darkly
fascinating. How does this happen?
Like, how do we go from, like, the
Gryffindor common room and, you know,
Severus Snape, to, like, these unhinged
rants about the transexuals. It's weird.
It, it is weird and I think also, I mean,
yeah, if you go to J.K. Rowling's Twitter
right now and scroll through her feed,
it is literal years of talking every
single day, almost exclusively, about
transgender people, for years.
Which I think is the type of behavior
we associate, with like boomer facebook
moms, and then I guess in a sense, she
kind of would have been that, if she
hadn't become a billionaire and one of
the most famous and beloved children's
authors of all time. But she is those
things and the idea of her behaving the
way, like, our homophobic aunt does
or whatever, but like from some castle
in the U.K., is just like a very jarring
image. (Natalie) I think that summarizes
it really well, right, like, it is, like,
your bigoted aunts deranged Facebook post
except on a platform with millions of
people as the audience. I feel like we
as a society, have, like, yet to know how
to deal with this type of thing cause
J.K. Rowling's not the only case of it.
I mean, like, Elon Musk has dabbled
a little bit in some similar forms of
bigotry with a comparable or even
larger platform. But I feel like what's
unique about J.K. Rowling is that
she's, like, single mindedly focused on
trans people as this one issue.
(Matt) So she wasn't always this way
though, and what we're gonna do today
is use J.K. Rowling as what I think is
a valuable case study in the worm hole
that transphobia is. The way that it
can serve as it has for J.K. Rowling
and so many millions of other people
as a portal into the broader world
of right-wing ideology that gets pretty
scary pretty quickly. We're gonna
try to understand why transphobia, and
I think especially when it's cloaked,
no pun intended, as a progressive feminist
cause and especially effective
gateway into the alt right. One day
you're reminding people that you
just like to be referred to as a woman
and that you are a woman and then,
you know, the next day you are
participating in Holocaust denial. It can
happen to you. (Natalie) Many such cases.
(Matt) Many such cases. And so, to begin
this story I wanna go back to 2019
to the first tweet that I remember
seeing of J.K. Rowling's, her foray into
the anti-trans movement, which at the
beginning was very tepid. I am going to
send you the tweet. (Natalie) "Dress
however you please. Call yourself
whatever you like. Sleep with any
consenting adult who'll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for
stating that sex is real? Hashtag I
stand with Maya. Hashtag this is not
a drill." (Matt) So what was the
context of this one?
(Natalie) So, the context is that there
was a English consultant named
Maya Forstater who, I guess she wasn't
fired but her contract was not
renewed because she had, like, refused
to use the correct pronouns for a trans
coworker or something along those lines.
And a lot of so called "gender-critical",
that is "transphobic", people in the U.K.
decided to turn this into a celebrated
cause, they, you know, rallied behind
this hashtag "I stand with maya".
The idea being, like, "oh, we shouldn't
have to submit to gender ideology by,
you know, using the correct pronouns
for trans people in the work place or
whatever. This is where J.K. Rowling
decided to join this discourse
officially. She decided to jump in on
the side of people who think that it's
terribly oppressive to have to use
the correct pronouns for a trans person.
And I guess at first, you know, there was
some ambiguity because you could be
like, "Well she's not transphobic. Maybe
she just believes in free speech, and she
thinks that, you know, that people
shouldn't be fired for having different
opinions." And like okay, like, at
first you could sort of plausibly think
that maybe, given the benefit of the
doubt, that's why she was getting
involved in this. But, like, to people who
kind of know the pattern that
transphobia takes place, we all pretty
much knew that, "Oh, okay she really
is transphobic behind the scenes".
Like, there is no way that you would
-go decide to die on this hill unless - Matt: Hmm.
you already were. At least that's what I
think now. I mean, I think J.K. Rowling
was at her most dangerous in 2019 and
in 2020 because of the stuff she was
saying seems kind of plausible and
reasonable to the average person, you
know. And so, there's this kind of like
clever selection of which topics to
get behind, right, instead of just,
I don't know, calling trans women "men"
in dresses, or whatever, it's like she's
defending the "right" of people to not
use the correct pronouns if they don't
agree, right? These people
kind of hedge in this way, like, when
they have a kind of like bigoted opinion
instead of just stating it out, right.
They sort of defend their right to have
-that opinion. - Matt: Mhmm.
So, that was very much with this thing
with Maya Forstater is, right. It's like
she's not saying something sort of
directly transphobic, but she is kind of
indirectly getting there by being like,
"I am going to publicly champion Maya's
right to be transphobic. "
(Matt) I feel like in the early days
she did so much of this plausible,
deniability stuff where it's like, you
know, "I'm just saying sex is real".
Right? And the average person who
isn't, like, a terminally online queer
is going to be like, "Yeah, sex is real,
whatever, like, who cares."
You know? It's like not a big deal.
(Natalie) Yeah, she was very effective
early on at kind of like deciding what
it was that she thought people
were mad about, right? And so she
framed the conversation, "Oh here's why
I'm getting backlashed. I'm getting
backlash because I said quote on quote
'sex is real'. And so, it kind of seems
like if you believe her account of what
people are mad about, then it sounds like
everyone whose mad is unreasonable
because they are mad at her for taking
this kind of - taking what? An abstract,
philosophical position about the
metaphysics of biological sex? Like,
is that what people are mad about?
No, right? It's of course not that
because she is intervening in this
social and political debate, right,
on the side that wants trans people
functionally not to exist in public
life, or not to be acknowledged in
public life. So, that is what people
are mad about, right? But early on,
I think she was able to kind of
frame her position as being this
like, I don't know, almost philosophical
position about the reality of sex or
something, you know? That is what she
wanted to make it sound like instead of
a political position about the place of
transgender people in society.
When you first saw that tweet were, like,
alarm bells ringing?
Oh, absolutely. I mean, at that point
I was like, yeah I basically internally
thought there was like a nine
hundred and ninety-nine out of
one thousand percent chance that
-it's, as people say, over, right? -Matt: (laughter) Right
It's so over, right? Like I already
basically already kind of knew that.
But I also kind of knew that, like,
well, most people aren't gonna notice
that it's over until she says something
more explicit.
Until she's doing Holocaust denial.
Yeah, until she's doing Holocaust denial,
exactly. But, of course, I've seen
enough people who kind of start this way
with this flirtation with bigotry where
stage one is usually like, "Well I
support the right for people to be bigots"
Like, I don't like that there's this,
like, cancel culture, whatever politically
correct - you can't say anything anymore.
Like, that's usually the prelude to a
bunch of bigoted stuff. It's kind of
like a softer way of getting a foot
in the door. Like, you're not necessarily
committing yourself to saying anything
bigoted. But you'll stand up for the right
of people to say that and you don't
like how, you know, how vicious people
are being towards people who are getting
criticized for saying more bigoted things.
In retrospect, it's clear that she's
preparing the way to be the one saying
those bigoted things herself.
For a while longer, well into 2020,
she, like, continues this road of
like, "sex is real". And so I'm going to
send you another thread.
It's funny how I know all of these
-like, by heart practically -Matt: Oh (laughter)
-It's like song lyrics (laughter) -Natalie: Right? I'm a scholar
-of the things she has said about -Matt: (laughing)
trans people, right? Like, "Ah yes,
-tweet seven, verse three". -Matt: (wheezes)
I know, cause, like, we've read these
-f***ing tweets so many times -Natalie: I know,
the last four years has been
dominated by having to read these
terrible opinions again and again.
This is, honestly, no one should be
allowed to get this famous. It's too
dangerous.
(laughter)
Okay, but for the normal people listening
who aren't so online, do you want to read
what she tweeted on June 6, I believe,
2020?
(Natalie) Dear normal people, this is me
reading from the book of Rowling,
chapter six (laughter).
Quote, "If sex isn't real, there's no
same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real,
the lived reality of women globally
is erased. I know and love trans people,
but erasing the concept of sex removes
the ability of many to meaningfully
discuss their lives. It isn't hate to
speak the truth."
Tweet two, "The idea that women like me,
who've been empathetic to trans people
for decades, feeling kinship because
they're vulnerable in the same way
as women - ie. to male violence - 'hate'
trans people because they think sex is
real and has lived consequences -
(English Accent): it is a nonsense."
-Natalie: Sorry, (inaudible) I feel I -Matt: (laughter)
cannot say, "is a nonsense" without doing
-it in an English accent. -Matt: (laughing)
(Natalie) I'm gonna switch to
doing an English accent for the last
one because I feel like, I just feel like
(English) "I respect every trans person's
right to live any way that feels
authentic and comfortable to them.
I'd march with you if you were
discriminated against on the basis
of being trans. At the same time, my
life has been shaped by being female.
I do not believe it's hateful to say so."
(Matt) "I'd march with you if you were
being discriminated against."
(Natalie) Yeah, that's a big, big red
flag, right? And this was, like, the
same month that the U.S., like, Donald
Trump had, like, announced, like, an
intention to, like, ban trans healthcare.
Yes.
The notion that, like, discrimination
against trans people is this, like,
hypothetical thing that might occur in
the future, right?
If ever there was a trans person who
faced bigotry on the basis of their
identity, I would stand up for them. But
that hasn't happened yet. So, I'm just
-not, I'm not standing up -(Natalie) Yeah, right.
No one's ever been discriminated against
for being trans. But, like, if it does
happen, I'll march with you.
But, okay, first of all, by the way, these
tweets got hundreds of thousands of likes
- and people were like, - Natalie: Yes.
"Yes! You're a warrior!" But it's like
again, a normal person who isn't super
online, and, I mean, you know, from
the queer and pro-trans end, but also
from, like, the super TERF-y anti-trans end.
Like if you aren't a part of either of
those groups, you're reading this
and are like, "What the f*** is she
talking about? Like what is this 'sex
is real' thing?" Like, what is she
talking about?
It's a weird argument, right? Because
it seems on the surface like it's a
linguistic point that she's trying to
make, right? There's this idea, like she
says, quote, "If we get rid of the
concept of sex that removes the
ability of many to discuss their lives."
Okay, this is what I think the assumption
is: it's, like, if we acknowledge that
trans people are who they say they
are, then that means that none of
the rest of us can talk about how gender
has impacted our lives, right? In other
words, think of if a trans woman, is a woman, then
I guess, you know, "I, J.K,. Rowling, can
never talk about the way that I have
been discriminated against for being
a woman." I mean, it's a little bit of an
oppression olympics almost kind of
- argument, where it's like - Matt: Mmm
there can only be one oppressed group,
right? And if we talk about how, you
know, there's no way to include trans
people as a valid concept without sort of
somehow, like, deleting or erasing the
entire concept of women. Which, I mean,
it doesn't make any sense, right?
In fact, J.K. Rowling will later use as
an example. Okay what does it mean to
"erase women"? I mean, well, okay, so
she'll use the example of, like, okay,
some hospital somewhere, on a piece of
paperwork says, uses the term "pregnant
person" instead of "pregnant woman".
Why? Because there is transgender men who
can and have gotten pregnant. And so,
saying "pregnant people" is a more, like,
even if you find that to be an awkward
phrase, like, it's still a more inclusive
phrase that is going to help trans men
who need reproductive healthcare
that, you know, conventionally would be
"women's health", right? I just don't
understand why making it inclusive to
transgender men somehow, like, deletes
the concept of women from existence.
Like, (stammers) it just doesn't make
any sense to me. I feel like it's, like,
a weird pretext for being prejudicial.
-It's just such a lie. I mean, you see -Natalie: Yeah.
this a lot with TERF's trans
exclusionary radical feminists. It's like
the arm of quote on quote, "feminism"
that is basically just defined by
transphobia. Especially towards trans
women.
Yeah, I don't even know if I would say
that it's especially towards trans women.
I would say that there is especially
vitriolic towards trans women
- and they kind of vilify. - Matt: Mmm
Trans women are sort of cast as, like,
dangerous predators. But trans men, I
feel like, the way that a lot of, like,
including J.K. Rowling, like, talk about
trans men as a quite reprehensible I
- think, too. Like, usually the idea - Matt: Mmm
is, like, trans men are like confused
girls who've been tricked by, like, the
medical establishment, like, the evil
cabal of endocrinologist who have, like,
somehow, like, hoodwinked vulnerable girls
into thinking that they're men. Which, of
course, is not how the healthcare system
works at all. Like, you really have to
scream and cry to get hormones. Like, no
one is persuading you to do this. In
fact, quite the opposite. Everyone is
telling you not to. So, the idea that
trans men or that any kind of assigned
female at birth trans person is this sort
of confused, vulnerable baby child. Like,
it's not vilification to the extent that
they've vilified trans women as dangerous
predators, but it's in infantilizing in a
way that I think can be just as harmful
in its consequences, right? When someone
says, "Oh, you can't make decisions about
your own body because you're too confused
and childish." Like, you know, that has
devastating consequences which we see.
Any feminist should be aware of how this
works cause this is what they say about
abortion; it's what they about
contraception; it's what they say about
women's health in general. "Shut up,
little girl," right, "You can't make
decisions about your body. We'll do it
for you." It's exactly the same thing J.K.
Rowling is essentially saying to trans
men.
TERFS especially towards trans men
do this like, "We're losing our lesbians.
They're all becoming trans men thing."
Which that as a refrain, I just don't
understand at all because, like,
statistically when you look at, like,
the number of gen Z people who are
coming out as queer, under every single
one of the letters, it's higher in all
of them. -(Natalie) Right.
Like there are more out lesbians today
than there have ever been.
(stammers) Yes, there's never been more
-lesbians, like, yeah - Matt: Theres- (laughs) And to be clear
I love that (laughs)
Yeah it's good, it's good actually, yeah.
No, I mean, I feel like it comes from,
it's like a very, like, selfish, like,
childish perspective. It's almost like,
"No don't transition, you're so sexy aha,"
- you know? Like, I feel like, thats kind - Matt: Yeah (laughs)
of, like, (stammers) and some gay women
do say this about trans men. Like,
"No, all the butch women are
transitioning, like, I wanted to f***
them before, no!" And it's like, okay,
well, too bad, like (scoffs) other people
don't have to live their lives in
accordance with what you find sexually
attractive. Like, again, as a woman
(stammers) you should know this, right?
- you should know that what you're - Matt: Yeah
doing, what you're speaking about someone
as if your sexual attraction to them
entitles you to their living a certain
way. You should know why that's bad and
why that feels violating and why that robs
someone of autonomy, right?
And with TERFs and this whole thing of,
like, "they're erasing the linguistic
concept of a woman." It's like (sighs)
- what world do you have to live in - (Natalie) Yeah.
for that to feel like the truth? And
look, I'm not a woman. And so, sometimes
with these conversations I'm very careful
about, like, even J.K. Rowling, a woman
who I disagree with entirely on so many
of these issues, it's like, I don't wanna
police her understanding of her own trauma
- as it pretence to being a woman. - (Natalie) Yeah.
However, I still, like, we all live in
the same society, and it's like, I'm
just very hard pressed to think that the
word "woman" is going anywhere.
(Natalie scoffs)
It's like, I don't think that, because on
some, like, in some medical papers that
are being published, that they're using
the terms "people who get pregnant,"
"people have periods," I don't think
that means that, like, they're gonna start
calling you in casual conversation
"a person who menstruates."
No. And no one talks like that way.
I've never heard of a trans person
casually refer to cis woman as
"people who menstruate." Because the
entire point of that term is that it
doesn't just refer to cis women.
There are people who have a sort of
visceral reaction to it, which I
guess I can kind of understand. Like,
I think if you were to make, like, an
intelligible, like, understandable
argument out of what J.K. Rowling seems
to be saying in these tweets, I mean I
think you could put it like this,
"For most women, the way that they are
oppressed in society is in fact
intertwined with biology," right? With
women's reproductive role, as most women
are capable of getting pregnant. And
that becomes a area where women's lives
are policed, right? It's interesting how
J.K. Rowling never talks about this,
- right? Not a word, not a word - Matt: Mhmm
about Roe v Wade being overturned
in the United States. For most women,
biology and misogyny, they certainly are
- intertwined. And there's a case to be - Matt: Yeah.
made that anyone who's assigned
female at birth does sort of belong
to a oppressed class by virtue of
their reproductive capability. Especially,
like, you know, the sensitivity around,
like, you know, "saying people who
menstruate" or "people who give birth."
I feel like if you hear those phrases in
isolation, they kind of, like, can be
abrasive sounding because there's,
like, a lot of shame and stigma, there
have for thousands of years around
menstruation and, you know, women
often are kind of reduced by patriarchy
to, like, birthing people in a sense,
right? So, I feel like that there's, like,
some grain of something I can sympathize
with her in terms of having a visceral,
negative reaction to these phrases.
But I feel like anyone who takes a second
to cool down, understand the context
of the phrase, will see that's, like, clearly
not the intention. They know that it's
going to have an emotional effect for a
- lot of women to see those phrases. - Matt: Mhmm
And so, they kind of decontextualize it
and blast it onto Twitter with, like,
a kind of vague implication that,
"Oh, this is what they are going to
reduce you to," and, like, "they" is who?
"They" is quote on quote trans ideology.
Which is sort of vaguely implied to be
this, like, powerful cabal.
(laughs) Right, which is also incredible
because in real life it's like people
with a hundred followers on Twitter.
Yes, right! It's like you're being yelled
at by, like, random, like, furries.
(laughing)
J.K. Rowling, she does fixate heavily on
her own perceived persecution by trans
people on Twitter. J.K. Rowling often
gets into these, like, feuds, like very
public feuds that she- actually I wanna
google how many followers she has on
Twitter. J.K. Rowling... Do you know
the number by heart?
I mean, I think it used to be like
fourteen million.
Oh! It's fourteen million.
I hate that I know this.
(laughter) Me too.
I don't want these stocks in my head.
J.K. Rowling, to her fourteen million
followers, she, like, regularly puts these
random a**, people on blast, and it's
like, I don't know, I have, what? I have
four hundred thousand Twitter followers,
which is, by the way, too many for a
twink. But, none the less, it's like, lots
of horrible people say horrible things
to me on the internet. You have to
be aware of the power dynamic of, like,
when you have fourteen million followers.
I feel like it was missing from J.K.
Rowling's discussion of how she's, like,
victimized by social media, is any
understanding of power, and I think
that a key thing that is going on with
J.K. Rowling is that she doesn't
conceptualize herself as a powerful
person. I mean, and this is common,
right? Cause, you know, most people
kind of think of themselves as, like,
heroic underdogs, I feel, because, I
don't know, you got bullied as a child,
you got, you know, (stutters) right,
like, in J.K. Rowling's case, like, she
used to live in relative poverty. She was
a single mom, she fled a, you know, a
abusive relationship. And so, I still
think in a way she kind of thinks of
herself as this, like, small, like, scared
person, like, on the run.
Mmmm
I mean, she's had, like, twenty-five years
to, like, catch up to the new reality,
but I feel like internally she still
hasn't, right? I think it's hard for a
lot of people to make this switch where
you realize, "Oh, I am the big fish now,"
right? Like, "I am the one who has power."
And I think that, I mean a lot of what
privilege is is a kind of blindness
to your own power. She hasn't noticed that
she's extremely powerful and influential.
So, it hasn't occurred to her that, like,
I don't know, going after some random
YouTuber with a hundred, you know,
hundred thousands of subscribers, is,
like, weird behavior for a celebrity of
her size.
And not even a YouTuber with a hundred
thousand subscribers, random a** people.
I was just scrolling through her Twitter
the other day getting ready for this
episode, and, like, she was sending
multiple tweets, like, screenshotting
this man's tweets and then sending out
her responses to her fourteen million
followers. This guy named Rajan, who
wrote, "I am a CIS male and an ally
of the LGBTQ community. All of my life
I have fought for diversity and equality.
I advised two Attorney General's on
race and equality issues and prosecuted
on behalf of victims of crime. I know
who I am and am proud of what I stand
for." And she responded with, uh, with
her own tweet, which she was pretending
to speak in his voice, in Rajan's voice.
She wrote, "I am a man who wants to see
girls and women stripped of their rights
and protections for the benefit of
my fellow men." And it's like, okay,
obviously that's not what Rajan was
saying. But then I was like, "Who the hell
is Rajan?" He has four hundred and
fifty-three followers. The tweet which she
sent out to her fourteen million
followers, Rajan's original tweet
had twenty-five likes!
Yeah, it's, like, literally just some guy
and she's just, (stutters) like, there's
no sense of the influence she wields.
I mean, in a way, she does think that
she's just someone's, like, Facebook
aunt. She's behaving in a way that is
indistinguishable from the way- she's not
acting like a public figure.
I just can't understand how J.K. Rowling
has spent, and this is what she does
everyday by the way, listener, feel
free to go to her Twitter. She's beefing
with someone who lives in, like, f******
Iowa. And it's like, I just can't (laughs)
conceptualize, especially if I had a
billion dollars. I don't know. I would
be on, like, a yacht probably. And not
arguing with f****** Rajan four hundred,
fifty-three followers. Rajan, if you're
out there, shout out. You seem like a
great guy.
(laughter)
Yeah, we love Rajan on this podcast.
I just can't make sense of her spending,
I imagine her rocking back n' forth in
the corner of, like, her eleventh living
room in her sixth castle; just, like, on
Twitter sweating.
(scoffs) I think we like to imagine
that when people get, you know, really
rich and famous, then there's a sense of,
like, peace or happiness or tranquility
that accompanies that, but that does not
seem to be the case, right? I mean, I'm
trying to imagine being in that situation.
I feel that, like, once you achieved a
certain level of, like, you know, success
beyond most people's wildest dreams...
It must be hard to know what to do with
that feeling of discontentment that's,
- like, still inside of you. - (Matt) Mmm
And I think that sometimes people, like,
you know, wildly successful people, like
J.K. Rowling or Elon Musk, they sort of
get addicted to Twitter as this, like,
- source of conflict (scoffs) almost. - (Matt) Mmm
It's almost like (stutters) once you don't
have to worry about money, once, you know,
you're free of your, you know, your past
abusive relationship, once you've, you
know, accomplish all the things you
previously wanted to accomplish, it's,
like, it's almost like you need to- you
just can't be happy with that. You need
to, like, find a new, like, fight almost.
And so, people go looking on Twitter;
you can always find a fight on Twitter.
I think there's something very unhealthy
about the way a lot of people, uh, relate
to using the internet as a source of
conflict, and then once your ego gets
invested, I think that's, you know, part
of what's going on with J.K. Rowling, of
course, is that because she's come,
you know, she's, like, positioned herself
so firmly on the anti-trans side. She now
feels like she has to defend it viciously.
Because otherwise, that would mean
admitting that she was wrong and admitting
that she's caused a massive amount of
damage.
Yes and you know what? It is really hard
to, like, profess your beliefs in front of
a lot of people. Like I have basically
done that as part of my job of making,
like, social and political content and
commentary online for the lat few years.
Like one of the things that took me
too long to come to grips with is that,
like, sometimes you need to know when
you're wrong. And, like, taking the L as
- the kids say, and I've had to - (Natalie) Yeah.
take L's online and it's embarrassing
and it makes you feel small. I mean,
Natalie, I know that's happened to you
where you've had to come to the mic and
be like, "Yeah I was wrong about this
thing," even if it takes a while to do
that. That is also one of the greatest,
like, personal lessons that I've taken
away from, like, being online
politically; is that being wrong is
actually, like, I mean it's so f******
corny, but it's like an opportunity.
I think it's, like, genuinely, like,
spiritually good for you to be able to
accept that. It's been helpful to me
overtime to learn, to get a lot of
criticism, and to kind of be at peace
with it, and to not feel like I need to
constantly be, like, a vigilant defender
of my own ego. People are going to say
things about me, they're going to
misrepresent me, they're going to
criticize me, and some of it will be
true, and a lot of it will be false. And
like, you just kind of have to learn to
- find peace with that. Otherwise you'll - (Matt) Mmm
go crazy. But, yeah, what we have on
our hands here with Ms. Rowling is a case
of someone who is pathologically
incapable of ever letting anything go
ever, right? - Matt: (laughs) Ever.
Like, I don't think she's ever once
admitted to being wrong about a single
thing.
No, and that includes the Holocaust denial
arc, which I'm teasing the listener with
cause we're not quite there yet.
I wanna return to the role of language
in all of this and, like, semantics,
right? We're going to be talking about
the transphobia serving as a gateway
into further right wing, you know, broader
right wing ideology. But then I also think
that taking it back a step, I think that
some people's entry into transphobia are
these, like, frankly, like, silly semantic
- word arguments. - (Natalie) Yeah.
They're erasing the word "women." And so,
as another example, what I think is a
powerful example of that: Ana Kasparian.
So, Ana Kasparian, she's one of the
political commentators on the Young Turks,
which is one of the bigger and of the
earlier left wing political YouTube shows.
You know she had her viral, um, "I don't
care what the Bible says! I don't, like...
(video) "I don't care if you're Christian.
In fact, I will fight for you to have
your religious liberty and practice
your Christianity. I believe in that. I
don't believe in Christianity, which means
that you do not get to dictate the way I
live my life based on your religion.
I don't care what the Bible says. You have
every right in the world. All those women
who identify with your religion have every
right in the world to not get an
abortion, to not take birth control.
But they do not have the right to dictate
my life and what I decide to do with
my body. I don't care about your godd*mn
religion."
(Matt) I think she's, like, had some
really great things to say over the years.
And none of that, none of the education,
none of anything stopped her from falling
into transphobic semantic rabbit hole
last May; like all horrible things that
took place on Twitter. So I'm going to
send you the tweets.
Okay so this first tweet is, "I'm a woman.
Please don't ever refer to me as a
person with a uterus, birthing person,
or person who menstruates. How do
people not realize how degrading this is?
You can support the transgender community
without doing this s***."
If you're just taking this tweet at face
value, I don't even disagree with it.
I think, like, yeah, right, don't, you
shouldn't refer to an individual person
as a "birthing person," that's weird. I
agree. I feel like where I disagree is in
the subtext, right? The first question
I have is, in what context did someone
refer to Anna in this way? Did this
happen? Did someone call her
(Natalie) "a person who menstruates"?
Like, in what context? Was the context
on a piece of medical paperwork? Should
phrases such as "a person who menstruates"
replace the phrase "woman" in everyday
English? No, of course not. Who's
suggesting that? Is anyone suggesting
that? I've never once heard trans person
suggest that. So, it's like, we're
arguing against this position that,
like, who are we arguing against?
I don't know. It feels like (stutters) for
some reason there's this need to argue
against this, like, strong man version of
a trans activist, who insist that we stop
using the word "women". I've never heard
someone claim that. I also think, like,
even the extent to which this is used
in medical context is overstated. Like, I
don't know, I'm thinking of, like, recent
times I've interacted with the medical
system. I feel like I'm often, you know,
when you select your gender on medical
paperwork, it's usually male, female,
or, like, other (scoffs) and it'll ask
you to explain. So, I will usually, like,
add, you know, as a context note that
I am a transgender woman. So that, in so
far as that's medically relevant, it's
noted. I have no given birth, nor have I
been to the hospital with someone giving
birth recently. So, I cannot say what the
experience is like. But I guess I'll be
curious to know, like, how often, I don't
know, if someone is listening this, um,
you know, if you, like, had a baby at a
hospital recently, like, how frequently
were phrases like "birthing person" used?
My guess is not very frequently.
- So I'm not sure (stammers) It just - (Matt) Right.
feels like a sort of imaginary argument
that we're having.
Totally, totally.
(stammers) I'm, like, lacking context for,
like, where is this occurring? I spend a
lot of time around women, actually. And
I feel like I don't see the word- I don't
see these phrases being thrown around
very often these days. And I'm in a very
trans inclusive, you know, kind of social
- environment. So, you'd think if - Matt: (laughs)
lots of people had replaced the word
"woman" with "person with a uterus," I
think I would have heard that but I
haven't.
(laughs) Right? So, she's starting to get
kind of dogged online and she responds
with tweet number two. Please hold...
Did you receive?
Umm, hold on. Not yet.
Oh, wait. Did it not send to you?
- I don't see it. - (Matt) Oh, weird.
Okay wait let me try again. Maybe I
just sent it to the wrong person (laughs)
And then out of nowhere you receive it
(laughter)
and its some tweet from a year ago
You might want to figure out who you
- just send that to. It could be kind of - (Matt laughing)
weird with no context.
(laughing continues)
Okay tweet two, "LOL. The meltdowns over
wanting to be referred to as a woman
rather than a "birthing person" is pretty
wild. I'll never apologize for that,
especially as biological woman who
has had a f****** lifetime of being
told I'm less than. I'm a woman. No
apologies," (sighs) So, again it's like, I
don't know, a lot of this type of
transphobic stuff comes from a kind of,
like, misdirected frustration with
misogyny. Anna reacted with, "Oh, people
are sort of forcing me to be called
the 'birthing person', and then that's
sort of somehow erasing the lifetime of
misogyny that I've had to experience
as a woman." I mean, I think it's like a
kind of scapegoat in a way. I feel that,
like, a lot of times, like, people who
get (stutters) into this gender critical
talking points, it's often a kind of,
like, displaced rage and frustration at
experiences of misogyny, often in, like,
leftist spaces, right? Cause that's a
real thing. Misogyny is pretty rampant on
the left as it is everywhere. And I think
that a lot of women find that hard to
complain about. And it's difficult in part
because men usually are in power. I don't
know, you kind of, as a woman, you kind
of have to, like, pander to men to get
through the day to some extent.
Yeah
So, it's like frightening to take a stand
against men. But trans people this kind
of, like, hated minority that is sort of
easy to, like, it's kind of easy to,
like, dump all of your, like, frustrations
and rage onto trans people because
there's a social momentum behind that
in a way that there sort of isn't against,
like, I don't know, frustration with
misogyny and leftist spaces, for example.
I honestly kinda feel bad for Ana reading
these tweets because obviously there's
some massive life, as she says, a lifetime
of, like, of difficult experiences that's
behind this. And it's blowing up now, but
it's choosing as its target, this very
weird thing that seems to me, to be
slightly off topic.
So these tweets are in March. And then in
July, she is still kind of stuck on
this transgender issue. In a discussion
about various social justice movements
and their methods for accomplishing
their goals, she tweets what I have
selected as to be tweet number three.
Which I will send to you now.
- Oh, this one (scoffs) Yeah this is... - (Matt laughs)
Okay, and see this is (stutters) okay, this
tweet- I know I'm talking about the
tweet before I've read it. But I do feel
that this tweet that I'm about to read,
it really kind of does showcase the way
that transphobia is kind of a red flag and
it's often the prelude to a whole bunch
of nonsense. Okay (breaths deeply)
Ana Kasparian quote, "The Civil Rights
Movement did not use the same strategies
as the trans movement. They didn't
barricade speakers they disagreed with in
a classroom for three hours. They
persuaded through non-violence and
showing America their humanity."
So this is (exhales) this is basically the
entire thing that the podcast called,
"The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" was
about, um. This was what the podcast with
Megan Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist
Church fame, uh and J.K. Rowling. A lot
of the argument was, like, "Oh, what we
really hate about the trans movement is
they use, like, illiberal methods. And
it's so unlike all past movements. Like
Gay Rights wasn't like this, and Women's
Rights wasn't like this, and the Civil
Rights Movement, they never did anything
violent and they were always polite and
they never raised their voices and they
never called people names." And it's just,
like, "Well I'm sorry that is historically
not true."
And it's so jarring to see someone like
- Ana Kasparian, who knows all of that, - (Natalie) Knows, yeah.
though. She knows all of that. I mean, all
of these movements had (stammers)
You think about that one famous, uh,
clip of Angela Davis talking about, like,
whether or not she endorses violence.
And she's just like, "Well, whether or not
I endorse it is besides the point.
Violence is the only thing I've ever known
as a black person in America. "
Have these people heard of Malcolm X?
Have they heard (stammers and scoffs)
Stonewall! Like, come on!
What do these people think the Civil
Rights Movement was? Like, I mean, it's
literally every one of these movements,
too. Like, I mean, again, people think of
Women's Suffrage assumes to be like, you know,
you think of the women marching with
their banners and it's like, "Oh, they
just had to show people their humanity by
being peaceful," and it's like, churches
were firebombed (scoffs) by suffragettes
acts in the U.K. People were physically,
they were murdered for Women's Suffrage.
Which is not to say that I am endorsing
these violent methods, but it's like,
I'm about to get so demonetized.
Wait, hold on, i can- let me rephrase that
People were unalived (Matt laughs)
People were unalived in the name of women's suffrage, right,
churches became more on fire than they previously had been,
in the name of women's suffrage, right,
like, this is the historical reality
that people forget because it's sort of more comfortable I guess
to assume that like, oh, Martin Luther King jr. just had to
get up on a podium and say "I have a dream, look, I'm human"
and then all the white people clapped and said
"Yes, let's have rights for all" and it's like no, that's not what happened
To desegregate schools in Alabama, president Eisenhower had to
send in the army, desegregation happened at gunpoint, it was not a peaceful process
I hope that trans rights can be accomplished with less violence than that,
and I think, in fact, there's no reason why that shouldn't be the case
But to suggest that the trans rights movement is this uniquely violent- it's just isn't