WEBVTT 00:00:01.400 --> 00:00:03.440 STEVE PAIKIN: What's in a name? Potentially, a great deal. 00:00:03.440 --> 00:00:06.020 University of Toronto psychology 00:00:06.020 --> 00:00:08.119 professor, Jordan Peterson, has a fight on 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:10.219 his hands after objecting to proposed 00:00:10.219 --> 00:00:12.259 legislation that he says would violate 00:00:12.259 --> 00:00:14.539 his freedom of speech by forcing him to 00:00:14.539 --> 00:00:17.000 address transgendered people using the 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.400 pronouns of their choosing. Joining us 00:00:19.400 --> 00:00:20.839 now to better understand the issue and 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:24.740 debate what's at stake: in Vancouver, British Columbia, 00:00:24.740 --> 00:00:27.109 Theryn Meyer, transgender pundit and 00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:29.509 YouTuber. In the nation's capital, 00:00:29.509 --> 00:00:31.579 Kyle Kirkup, professor of law at the 00:00:31.579 --> 00:00:34.039 University of Ottawa. And here in studio, 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:35.780 the aforementioned Jordan Peterson, 00:00:35.780 --> 00:00:37.850 professor of psychology, University of Toronto. 00:00:37.850 --> 00:00:40.100 Nicholas Matte, lecturer, 00:00:40.100 --> 00:00:42.949 transgender studies at U of T. 00:00:42.949 --> 00:00:45.289 And Mary Rogan, whose article entitled, 00:00:45.289 --> 00:00:47.539 "Growing Up Trans" is featured in the October issue 00:00:47.539 --> 00:00:50.210 of the Walrus magazine. Good to have you 00:00:50.210 --> 00:00:51.710 three here and our two friends in 00:00:51.710 --> 00:00:53.120 points beyond. We appreciate everybody 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:55.640 being on the program for what is, I think, 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:57.140 one of the hottest topics in the country 00:00:57.140 --> 00:00:58.879 today, Professor Peterson – and it's all 00:00:58.879 --> 00:01:02.000 because of you. And I think before we go 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.949 any further with our conversation here, 00:01:03.949 --> 00:01:06.770 I want to give people a sense of how hot 00:01:06.770 --> 00:01:09.860 this has got starting on the downtown 00:01:09.860 --> 00:01:11.450 campus of the University of Toronto. 00:01:11.450 --> 00:01:14.350 Sheldon if you would, roll it. 00:01:14.350 --> 00:01:18.360 [audience members chanting] JORDAN PETERSON: Okay. 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:24.510 JORDAN: Well as you can see, the opponents of 00:01:24.510 --> 00:01:26.930 free speech are capable of making a lot of 00:01:26.930 --> 00:01:30.240 inarticulate noise. Free speech is the 00:01:30.240 --> 00:01:32.610 mechanism by which we keep our society functioning. 00:01:32.610 --> 00:01:37.790 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hear, hear. AUDIENCE MEMBER: And by doing this, you're imposing – 00:01:37.790 --> 00:01:43.070 Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait! No! No! No! Not cool. Not cool. 00:01:43.070 --> 00:01:45.210 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm going to post this online – JORDAN: That's fine. 00:01:45.210 --> 00:01:47.330 AUDIENCE MEMBER: – that you would like people to not – to be more 00:01:47.330 --> 00:01:50.110 accommodating of trans people and people of color at your events in the future. 00:01:50.110 --> 00:01:53.510 JORDAN: I would like there to be no violence. 00:01:53.510 --> 00:01:56.160 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am a person of color. I am a person of color and I felt very accommodated here. 00:01:56.160 --> 00:01:58.470 AUDIENCE MEMBER: There have been multiple reported instances of trans people 00:01:58.470 --> 00:02:04.300 killing themselves because they are not being integrated into society. 00:02:04.300 --> 00:02:06.119 AUDIENCE MEMBER: If it wasn't for this law, 00:02:06.119 --> 00:02:08.529 and I asked you to refer to me with they/them pronouns, would you? 00:02:08.529 --> 00:02:10.199 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why do you have the authority to determine 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.690 whether or not an individual is worthy 00:02:12.690 --> 00:02:15.930 of you using their pronouns? Like, if I 00:02:15.930 --> 00:02:17.400 asked you, "Would you please use they/them 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:19.400 pronouns for me?" what – 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:21.410 JORDAN: It would it would depend on what I thought of your motivation. 00:02:21.410 --> 00:02:23.720 AUDIENCE MEMBER: What hoops do you want us to jump through? 00:02:23.720 --> 00:02:25.530 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Those are my pronouns. 00:02:25.530 --> 00:02:26.520 STEVE: Okay, with indulgence 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:27.840 of everybody else on the program, 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.340 I'm going to start with Professor Peterson off 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:31.380 the top here for a while because, as I 00:02:31.380 --> 00:02:34.050 suggested, you thought long and hard 00:02:34.050 --> 00:02:37.200 about this. You posted a few things up to 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:40.020 YouTube because you had been thinking 00:02:40.020 --> 00:02:42.570 long and hard about it. One-and-a-half 00:02:42.570 --> 00:02:45.660 million hits later, Jordan – one and a half 00:02:45.660 --> 00:02:48.570 million hits later – this has become a 00:02:48.570 --> 00:02:50.910 huge issue. So let's start there. Why did 00:02:50.910 --> 00:02:54.060 you post those views to YouTube in the first place? 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.180 JORDAN: Well, there's proximate and distal reasons. 00:02:57.180 --> 00:02:58.890 The proximate reasons were 00:02:58.890 --> 00:03:00.720 because I received some correspondence 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:04.890 from clients of mine who had 00:03:04.890 --> 00:03:09.030 been, I would say, persecuted in a variety 00:03:09.030 --> 00:03:10.860 of ways by people who were politically correct. 00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:13.890 And they sent me some 00:03:13.890 --> 00:03:16.410 documentation about Bill C16 and the 00:03:16.410 --> 00:03:18.150 associated policy statements on the 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:19.739 Ontario Human Rights Commission, which I 00:03:19.739 --> 00:03:24.200 read and was not very happy about. 00:03:24.200 --> 00:03:26.760 And also because the University of Toronto 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:28.709 decided to make anti-racism and 00:03:28.709 --> 00:03:30.930 anti-bias training – so-called anti-racism and 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:33.600 anti-bias training – mandatory, which I 00:03:33.600 --> 00:03:37.530 regarded as an inappropriate incursion into the domain of political 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:39.150 opinion by the university administration. 00:03:39.150 --> 00:03:41.700 STEVE: Have you taken that training yet? JORDAN: No, and 00:03:41.700 --> 00:03:43.800 I don't have to yet. It's the HR 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:45.600 department personnel that have to take it. 00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:47.280 STEVE: If they decide that you have to, will you? 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.620 JORDAN: No way. Not a chance. 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:50.850 STEVE: Okay. And what's the other – You referred to 00:03:50.850 --> 00:03:52.350 persecution that friends or clients of 00:03:52.350 --> 00:03:55.670 yours had experienced. Such as? JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. Well 00:03:55.670 --> 00:03:58.410 there are lots of places now where the 00:03:58.410 --> 00:03:59.850 workplace has become, I would say, 00:03:59.850 --> 00:04:01.890 excessively politicized. And so, people 00:04:01.890 --> 00:04:03.780 who have viewpoints – And this also 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.180 involves – includes, I would say, fairly 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:08.490 radical leftist viewpoints. People don't 00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:11.490 feel comfortable at all in being 00:04:11.490 --> 00:04:12.870 able to use the language of their choice 00:04:12.870 --> 00:04:15.270 or to have even opinions about a variety 00:04:15.270 --> 00:04:18.988 of different things. And so I've had 00:04:18.988 --> 00:04:20.959 three clients who, I would say, have been 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:26.670 we'll say "harassed," I suppose, is the right 00:04:26.670 --> 00:04:27.450 way of putting it. 00:04:27.450 --> 00:04:29.430 STEVE: In social media or otherwise? JORDAN: No, at work. At work. 00:04:29.430 --> 00:04:32.100 STEVE: At work. JORDAN: At work by people who 00:04:32.100 --> 00:04:34.530 don't like their political opinions essentially. 00:04:34.530 --> 00:04:37.820 STEVE: And the opinions were what? 00:04:37.820 --> 00:04:39.960 JORDAN: Well, I can't tell you too much about it, 00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:42.030 actually, because of issues – 00:04:42.030 --> 00:04:44.480 fundamental issues of confidentiality. STEVE: All right. Give us – 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.320 Essentially, I guess what I'm asking is 00:04:46.320 --> 00:04:48.510 to lay the case out. JORDAN: Well, one of – STEVE: What is it 00:04:48.510 --> 00:04:50.450 you find offensive about this legislation? 00:04:50.450 --> 00:04:51.600 JORDAN: Well, fundamentally, there 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:53.070 were two things that really bothered me, 00:04:53.070 --> 00:04:54.240 although there have been other things 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:56.340 I've thought about since. One was that I 00:04:56.340 --> 00:04:59.250 was being asked, as everyone is, to use a 00:04:59.250 --> 00:05:01.020 certain set of words that I think are 00:05:01.020 --> 00:05:02.490 the constructions of people who have a 00:05:02.490 --> 00:05:04.170 political ideology that I don't believe 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:06.290 in and that I also regard as dangerous. 00:05:06.290 --> 00:05:08.320 STEVE: What are those words? JORDAN: Those are 00:05:08.320 --> 00:05:09.930 the made-up words that 00:05:09.930 --> 00:05:13.200 people now describe as gender-neutral. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:16.650 And so, to me, they're 00:05:16.650 --> 00:05:18.930 an attempt to control language 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:22.320 and in a direction that isn't happening organically, 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:23.730 it's not happening naturally, 00:05:23.730 --> 00:05:25.770 people aren't picking up these words in 00:05:25.770 --> 00:05:27.240 the typical way that new words are 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.480 picked up, but by force and by fiat. 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:31.110 And I would say by force because there's 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:33.810 legislative power behind them. STEVE: So just so we're [clear] – 00:05:33.810 --> 00:05:36.270 JORDAN: And I don't like these made-up words – ze, and zer and that 00:05:36.270 --> 00:05:38.040 sort of thing. STEVE: Okay. What about the – They're not 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.000 all made up – quote-unquote made-up words. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.820 JORDAN: Yeah. STEVE: For example, "they" is one of them – 00:05:41.820 --> 00:05:43.380 to speak to an individual as they. 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:45.210 JORDAN: Yes, right. But we can't dispense with 00:05:45.210 --> 00:05:46.800 the distinction between singular and plural. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.900 I mean, I know that the advocates of that 00:05:48.900 --> 00:05:50.550 particular approach say that "they" has 00:05:50.550 --> 00:05:52.350 been used forever as a singular, and 00:05:52.350 --> 00:05:54.509 that's actually not correct. It's used as 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:55.919 a singular in very exceptional 00:05:55.919 --> 00:05:58.410 circumstances. Like, "If your child wishes 00:05:58.410 --> 00:06:00.210 to bring a book to school, they're 00:06:00.210 --> 00:06:02.610 welcome to do so." But "they" – STEVE: That's just 00:06:02.610 --> 00:06:05.729 grammatically incorrect. JORDAN: Well, it is also. There's some 00:06:05.729 --> 00:06:07.500 debate about that because it is – "they" is 00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:09.750 used like that sometimes. But it's never 00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:11.789 been used as a singular replacement 00:06:11.789 --> 00:06:14.190 for he or she. STEVE: All right. JORDAN: And so it's not a 00:06:14.190 --> 00:06:16.440 tenable solution. And that's the best of 00:06:16.440 --> 00:06:18.000 the solutions. STEVE: So, we understand your 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.710 views and where you're coming from. 00:06:19.710 --> 00:06:22.440 You've decided to lay these views out in 00:06:22.440 --> 00:06:26.010 some YouTube discourses. JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: You put them up. 00:06:26.010 --> 00:06:27.419 The response has been overwhelming. 00:06:27.419 --> 00:06:29.610 JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: Did you anticipate that you would get 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:31.380 this kind of feedback? JORDAN: No, there was no 00:06:31.380 --> 00:06:33.330 way of anticipating this. And I think – You 00:06:33.330 --> 00:06:34.680 mentioned in the intro that 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.419 this is a consequence of what I've done. 00:06:36.419 --> 00:06:38.639 And I don't think that's true. It's a 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:40.949 consequence of the fact – I thought 00:06:40.949 --> 00:06:42.270 about it, and I think the right metaphor 00:06:42.270 --> 00:06:44.970 is that there's a large forest, 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:47.669 and it's been a hot, dry summer, or maybe 00:06:47.669 --> 00:06:49.650 a drought, and there's plenty of dead 00:06:49.650 --> 00:06:52.050 wood gathered, and I lit a spark. And you 00:06:52.050 --> 00:06:54.180 can't blame the forest fire on the spark. 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:57.570 It's just not possible for 00:06:57.570 --> 00:06:59.340 someone to put up a YouTube video and 00:06:59.340 --> 00:07:02.039 cause this kind of brouhaha without all 00:07:02.039 --> 00:07:03.479 of the groundwork already being laid. 00:07:03.479 --> 00:07:05.250 STEVE: Fair enough. There is clearly – 00:07:05.250 --> 00:07:08.099 There is out there an appetite 00:07:08.099 --> 00:07:10.199 against political correctness, which is 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:11.699 what you have described this as. In fact, 00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:13.560 your YouTube video is called 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:15.479 "Professor Against Political Correctness." JORDAN: Mm-hmm. STEVE: But let's 00:07:15.479 --> 00:07:16.620 make sure we're all speaking the same 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:19.010 language here. You would define that how? 00:07:19.010 --> 00:07:21.720 Political correctness? JORDAN: Well, I think it's 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:23.909 a particular kind of ideological game. And I 00:07:23.909 --> 00:07:25.860 think the outcome is twofold. 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:27.539 It's to make the player feel morally superior, 00:07:27.539 --> 00:07:31.680 and also to take rather serious ax swings 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.169 at the foundation of society. 00:07:34.169 --> 00:07:36.840 And so, the game is identify a domain of 00:07:36.840 --> 00:07:39.419 human endeavor, note that there's a 00:07:39.419 --> 00:07:41.760 distribution of success – some people are 00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:43.139 doing comparatively better and some 00:07:43.139 --> 00:07:44.659 people are doing comparatively worse – 00:07:44.659 --> 00:07:47.389 define those doing worse as victims, 00:07:47.389 --> 00:07:49.380 define those doing better as 00:07:49.380 --> 00:07:52.139 perpetrators, identify with the victims, 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:55.260 have yourself a set of enemies handy to 00:07:55.260 --> 00:07:57.599 vent your resentment on, feel good about 00:07:57.599 --> 00:07:59.099 it even though it didn't really require 00:07:59.099 --> 00:08:02.639 any work on your part, and then endlessly repeat. 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.050 And that's why – I've seen that happening 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:05.939 on campuses, in particular, for the last 30 years. 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:08.189 STEVE: In your YouTube talk, you 00:08:08.189 --> 00:08:10.740 describe those who oppose you on this 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.259 issue as "resentful and uninformed." 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:14.699 JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: Tell me why you think that's accurate. 00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:18.029 JORDAN: Well, I worked for the NDP when 00:08:18.029 --> 00:08:19.800 I was a kid – STEVE: Okay. JORDAN: From the time I 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:21.689 was 14 to the time I was 18. 00:08:21.689 --> 00:08:23.639 I worked with Rachel Notley's father and her mother, 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.550 and knew them very well. And I 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:28.259 actually found them very admirable 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:29.969 people, as well as the other people 00:08:29.969 --> 00:08:31.499 on the socialist end of the 00:08:31.499 --> 00:08:33.000 distribution who were genuinely working 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.159 for the rights of working-class 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.169 people – coming out of that Saskatchewan 00:08:37.169 --> 00:08:38.640 tradition that established health care 00:08:38.640 --> 00:08:40.740 and pension and all of that. But I noted, 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:42.029 at the same time, that the party 00:08:42.029 --> 00:08:44.370 functionaries, let's say, weren't that 00:08:44.370 --> 00:08:45.810 sort of person at all. They didn't really 00:08:45.810 --> 00:08:47.250 like the working class. They weren't 00:08:47.250 --> 00:08:48.390 standing up for them. And I couldn't 00:08:48.390 --> 00:08:50.519 quite put my finger on it until I read 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.410 George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier," 00:08:52.410 --> 00:08:54.540 which is a brilliant book and which was 00:08:54.540 --> 00:08:56.699 written for the Left Book Club in the UK. 00:08:56.699 --> 00:08:59.010 And he was talking about the failures of 00:08:59.010 --> 00:09:01.170 socialism in the United Kingdom, 00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:02.820 and then discussed intellectual 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:05.010 socialists of the type who didn't 00:09:05.010 --> 00:09:08.010 exactly like the poor – STEVE: Okay. JORDAN: They just hated the rich. 00:09:08.010 --> 00:09:11.040 STEVE: "Resentful and uninformed," though? 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:13.560 JORDAN: Yes. Well, the resentful part is the 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:16.380 willingness to pull down any structure 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:18.570 that's hierarchical because of 00:09:18.570 --> 00:09:20.550 resentment about not being on the top. 00:09:20.550 --> 00:09:24.140 And uninformed is, well, it's the 00:09:24.140 --> 00:09:26.279 consistent attempt to force every 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.459 political issue into a single – 00:09:29.459 --> 00:09:31.260 into the domain encompassed and viewed 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:33.480 through this single lens. STEVE: Jordan, let's do 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:34.589 one more question here, and then we'll 00:09:34.589 --> 00:09:36.060 get everybody else into the conversation. 00:09:36.060 --> 00:09:38.250 You know, of course, that since this story broke, 00:09:38.250 --> 00:09:40.050 you've been called a lot of things – 00:09:40.050 --> 00:09:43.769 JORDAN: Yep. STEVE: – one of which is a "transphobe." JORDAN: Yeah. 00:09:43.769 --> 00:09:47.310 STEVE: Some people have accused you of using 00:09:47.310 --> 00:09:49.079 the free-speech issue to mask what's 00:09:49.079 --> 00:09:50.880 really going on here, which is an attempt 00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:53.100 to deprive other people of what they 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:55.500 believe are their legitimate rights. JORDAN: Well, I can – 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:56.850 STEVE: And I want to give you the opportunity to speak 00:09:56.850 --> 00:09:58.350 to whether or not you are a transphobe. 00:09:58.350 --> 00:10:00.000 JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:01.170 I've received more letters from 00:10:01.170 --> 00:10:03.300 transsexual people supporting me than 00:10:03.300 --> 00:10:05.699 opposing me. And I never said anything, 00:10:05.699 --> 00:10:07.680 really, about transsexual people, 00:10:07.680 --> 00:10:09.089 about their existence, although that was the 00:10:09.089 --> 00:10:10.680 first thing that I was accused of doing. 00:10:10.680 --> 00:10:13.110 I didn't say that transsexual people 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:16.410 didn't exist. I said that gender identity, gender expression, 00:10:16.410 --> 00:10:18.390 and biological sex do not vary 00:10:18.390 --> 00:10:21.270 independently, which they don't. And so, 00:10:21.270 --> 00:10:23.610 this issue is, in some sense, 00:10:23.610 --> 00:10:26.160 only peripherally about about transsexual issues. 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:28.560 It's more essentially about 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:31.350 gender issues. And, then on top of that – 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:33.180 and I think it's the biggest issue – 00:10:33.180 --> 00:10:35.670 is that it's a free speech issue. So – STEVE: Okay. 00:10:35.670 --> 00:10:38.130 Let us continue to explore all of those 00:10:38.130 --> 00:10:41.370 issues that you have just raised and – 00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:42.510 Why don't we do this? Let's take a moment. 00:10:42.510 --> 00:10:43.860 We're gonna explain a few basic things here. 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:45.750 The issue of so-called 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:47.250 non-traditional pronouns goes together 00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:49.170 with non-traditional gender identities. 00:10:49.170 --> 00:10:52.560 New York City, for example, recognizes 31 00:10:52.560 --> 00:10:54.990 such gender expressions. In other words, 00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:57.590 besides "man" and "woman," there are 29 other 00:10:57.590 --> 00:11:00.540 gender expressions. For example, "pangender," 00:11:00.540 --> 00:11:03.180 "queer gender," "gender fluid," "crossdresser," 00:11:03.180 --> 00:11:05.730 "bi-gendered," "gender blender," and the list goes on. 00:11:05.730 --> 00:11:07.530 And Nicholas, this is where I 00:11:07.530 --> 00:11:08.370 want to bring you into the discussion 00:11:08.370 --> 00:11:11.130 because you teach this. You teach trans studies. 00:11:11.130 --> 00:11:13.440 So, if you would, give us a brief 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.040 primer on so many gender identities that, 00:11:17.040 --> 00:11:20.040 in your view, require non-traditional pronouns. 00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:24.690 NICHOLAS MATTE: Basically, it's not correct that 00:11:24.690 --> 00:11:26.460 there is such a thing as biological sex. 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:28.350 And I'm a historian of medicine. 00:11:28.350 --> 00:11:30.510 I can unpack that for you at great length if 00:11:30.510 --> 00:11:32.280 you want. But in the interest of time, 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:34.530 I won't. So that's a very popular misconception. 00:11:34.530 --> 00:11:36.750 So, essentially, in my 00:11:36.750 --> 00:11:38.640 transgender studies classes, what we're 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:40.500 doing is looking at actual research and 00:11:40.500 --> 00:11:43.440 identifying ways that current social 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:45.750 issues related to trans people or things 00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:47.550 that are associated with trans, such as 00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:50.370 free-speech arguments and claims, 00:11:50.370 --> 00:11:52.350 how that connects to the way that people are thinking, 00:11:52.350 --> 00:11:54.010 the way that research has been 00:11:54.010 --> 00:11:55.740 framed, the histories have been framed. STEVE: Give us some of 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:57.270 the other pronouns that one would hear – typically. 00:11:57.270 --> 00:11:59.340 NICHOLAS: I don't focus on pronouns 00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:00.990 because pronouns are actually part of 00:12:00.990 --> 00:12:03.300 a cisnormative culture. So what we do is learn about – 00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:04.860 STEVE: I'm gonna stop you right there. 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:06.660 NICHOLAS: Yes, I was just about to explain. STEVE: Good. 00:12:06.660 --> 00:12:07.980 NICHOLAS: So, we don't start from a cisnormative 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:09.750 perspective because that can't actually 00:12:09.750 --> 00:12:11.880 go very far. STEVE: What does cisnormative mean? 00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:13.590 NICHOLAS: So, I'm gonna start us there. 00:12:13.590 --> 00:12:17.640 Cisnormative is basically the very popular idea and 00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:19.380 assumption that most people probably have – 00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:21.390 and definitely that our structures convey – 00:12:21.390 --> 00:12:23.460 that there is such a thing as 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:25.440 male and female, that they connect to 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.110 being a girl or a boy or a man or a woman, 00:12:28.110 --> 00:12:30.270 and then sometimes that will also 00:12:30.270 --> 00:12:32.160 recognize intersex or trans people or 00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:33.720 transsexual people, as you mentioned, 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.680 because that's – It's sometimes also referred 00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:39.480 to as a gender binary. So, anything that 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.240 fits within a gender binary can work 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.370 within cisnormativity. STEVE: Okay. 00:12:44.370 --> 00:12:46.160 NICHOLAS: But cisnormativity is basically that everyone 00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:48.570 assumes that there is male and female, 00:12:48.570 --> 00:12:51.060 and so very little is actually looked at 00:12:51.060 --> 00:12:53.540 to understand what's actually the case. 00:12:53.540 --> 00:12:56.150 And scientists have been doing this for at least over 50 years. 00:12:56.150 --> 00:12:59.240 STEVE: Because your view would be it's much more complicated than that. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:00.720 NICHOLAS: Right. It's not my view, 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.040 I just know that, for over 50 years, 00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:03.600 scientists have shown that that's not true. 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.880 And yet, our social systems haven't 00:13:05.880 --> 00:13:08.410 been able to find a way to address 00:13:08.410 --> 00:13:10.850 the level of complexity that people actually experience. 00:13:10.850 --> 00:13:12.730 JORDAN: At what point can I step in, Steve? 00:13:12.730 --> 00:13:13.890 STEVE: Stand by for a second – JORDAN: Okay. 00:13:13.890 --> 00:13:16.590 STEVE: – because I want to let everybody else get in first, and then we'll get you in. 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:18.010 NICHOLAS: And I didn't interrupt you either, so – 00:13:18.010 --> 00:13:19.810 STEVE: Mary, how prevalent is transgenderism in our world? 00:13:19.810 --> 00:13:22.110 MARY ROGAN: I don't think I can – 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:23.550 I don't think I can answer that question. 00:13:23.550 --> 00:13:26.610 I think that I would agree with Nicolas that 00:13:26.610 --> 00:13:29.010 there is some discrepancy on these 00:13:29.010 --> 00:13:30.480 numbers and there is some variance on 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:36.060 the numbers. I guess I'm curious 00:13:36.060 --> 00:13:38.760 as to why we need need to put a 00:13:38.760 --> 00:13:41.190 number on this. Because that's come up. 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:47.010 I listened to Jordan's video, 00:13:47.010 --> 00:13:49.200 and that was something that was mentioned. 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.510 This is, statistically – 00:13:51.510 --> 00:13:53.460 there are so few intersex people as to be – 00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:55.390 it's insignificant. 00:13:55.390 --> 00:13:57.500 STEVE: Well, I think there's a reasonable curiosity 00:13:57.500 --> 00:13:59.630 as to whether or not we're talking about half the population 00:13:59.630 --> 00:14:02.220 or less than 1% of the population. That's all. 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:04.140 MARY: No, I understand that. I guess what I'm 00:14:04.140 --> 00:14:07.110 saying is it seems that there's a focus 00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:10.200 on that in terms of what we know now. 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.060 And I think what Nicholas is trying to try 00:14:12.060 --> 00:14:13.170 to say – and I don't want to 00:14:13.170 --> 00:14:16.500 presume too much – I think that 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:18.180 that number is going to be something that 00:14:18.180 --> 00:14:20.310 evolves as we evolve and our language 00:14:20.310 --> 00:14:22.020 evolves and we give people the room to 00:14:22.020 --> 00:14:23.280 come forward and express who they are. 00:14:23.280 --> 00:14:25.230 STEVE: Okay. Let me – As part of that expression 00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:28.170 and evolution of this issue, the use of 00:14:28.170 --> 00:14:31.010 non-traditional pronouns, where are you on that? 00:14:31.010 --> 00:14:33.360 MARY: I think people should be able to 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.880 say how they want to be addressed. 00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.640 I do believe that. In my own experience in 00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:40.200 writing the Walrus piece, 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.170 I began at one place and ended at another. 00:14:43.170 --> 00:14:45.560 And I'll let everyone pay their $7 to find out how. 00:14:45.560 --> 00:14:47.120 STEVE: [chuckles] MARY: They can buy the magazine. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.960 But I think that, for me, 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.440 identifying as male at a very late 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.990 stage in my life, I don't have – 00:14:54.990 --> 00:14:58.350 I didn't have a lot of attachment to the pronoun "she." 00:14:58.350 --> 00:14:59.840 You could have said "giraffe." 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:02.250 I had found a way at a very early age not to 00:15:02.250 --> 00:15:06.110 even hear that word. It meant nothing to me. 00:15:06.110 --> 00:15:08.270 So I didn't dive into the pronoun "he." 00:15:08.270 --> 00:15:10.380 STEVE: So, if I were going to refer to you, 00:15:10.380 --> 00:15:12.930 though, in the third person – MARY: "They." STEVE: – you would want me to call you "they." 00:15:12.930 --> 00:15:16.030 MARY: Yes. STEVE: Okay. Because that encapsulates what? 00:15:16.030 --> 00:15:19.400 MARY: I think it reflects where I am right now. 00:15:19.400 --> 00:15:21.076 Because of my lived experience – 00:15:21.076 --> 00:15:24.273 five decades as being identified – 00:15:24.273 --> 00:15:26.300 certainly by the world – as female – 00:15:26.300 --> 00:15:28.450 some of the time, not all 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:29.840 of the time – my lived experience was 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:33.830 largely female, and I personally am not 00:15:33.830 --> 00:15:37.230 sort of ready to jump in wholly into 00:15:37.230 --> 00:15:39.450 having people call me "he." 00:15:39.450 --> 00:15:42.240 But I'm certainly far enough along 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.250 in terms of how I feel internally 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:45.890 that I don't want to be called "she." 00:15:45.890 --> 00:15:48.360 STEVE: Understood. Let's go to British Columbia. 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.540 Theryn, I want you to help us understand 00:15:50.540 --> 00:15:53.580 for our viewers who don't know you 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:55.350 and don't know your work, 00:15:55.350 --> 00:15:59.170 I would like you to describe yourself. 00:15:59.170 --> 00:16:02.440 THERYN: Well, I make political commentary – 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:05.400 mostly on YouTube. 00:16:05.400 --> 00:16:10.470 And I mostly focus on basically countering – 00:16:10.470 --> 00:16:13.680 with my own personal perspectives – 00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:17.460 countering what I consider to be 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.970 the kind of hegemony surrounding – 00:16:20.970 --> 00:16:24.300 the political hegemony – surrounding trans politics, 00:16:24.300 --> 00:16:27.290 and what I consider to be 00:16:27.290 --> 00:16:33.080 quite ridiculous opinions and demands 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.360 coming from what has come to be known as 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.690 kind of the political trans lobbying. 00:16:39.690 --> 00:16:41.460 STEVE: I'm not as good at this issue 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:42.960 as I should be, so I'm going to look to you 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.610 to help me use the right words here 00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:48.830 to describe how you were born 00:16:48.830 --> 00:16:51.740 and what you see yourself as now. 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:56.570 So is it accurate to say you're a trans woman? 00:16:56.570 --> 00:16:59.330 THERYN: Yes I'm, I'm – Oh [frustration]. 00:16:59.330 --> 00:17:00.659 I wish I would have lived in a world 00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:01.960 where that was just obvious 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:02.959 and I don't have to explain that to people. 00:17:02.959 --> 00:17:04.900 But, apparently, I do. 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:08.039 I mean, "Yes, I'm just a woman." 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:09.539 STEVE: Is this to say 00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:13.029 you were born male but now are female? 00:17:13.029 --> 00:17:16.370 THERYN: Yes. I transitioned from male to female. And, yeah. 00:17:16.370 --> 00:17:19.670 STEVE: In which case, do I refer to you – 00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:21.560 I'm gonna ask you the same question 00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:23.173 I asked Mary, which is 00:17:23.173 --> 00:17:24.563 do I refer to you as her or she now? 00:17:24.563 --> 00:17:25.566 THERYN: Yes, you do. 00:17:25.566 --> 00:17:27.569 STEVE: I do. Okay. 00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:29.730 And how do you relate to the experiences 00:17:29.730 --> 00:17:31.980 that we have heard arise during this 00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:34.890 debate where gender identities and 00:17:34.890 --> 00:17:39.750 pronouns are up for grabs, if you like? 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:47.299 I am very skeptical of the ideology 00:17:47.299 --> 00:17:50.080 surrounding gender identity. 00:17:50.080 --> 00:17:51.510 I don't believe there are 00:17:51.510 --> 00:17:56.000 29-plus gender identities or genders. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.480 I believe there's male and female and 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:58.770 then there's somewhere in between and 00:17:58.770 --> 00:18:03.150 most people fall along that. And just people 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:05.800 who are in-between does not constitute a new gender. 00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:07.990 There are two genders – period. 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:12.410 And that is, biologically, a sound argument to make. 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:16.630 Just because the argument that was made 00:18:16.630 --> 00:18:18.750 earlier in the show is that – 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:20.630 It wasn't an argument, but a claim – 00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:23.520 that there is no such thing as biological sex. 00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:25.750 Well, that's simply not true. 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:26.909 It is true that there are 00:18:26.909 --> 00:18:29.610 multiple characteristics and there are 00:18:29.610 --> 00:18:32.880 multiple factors that go into determining sex, 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.120 and that sex is not on-off switch – 00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:36.880 that there is a spectrum to it, 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.920 just like with most things in nature. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:41.610 Most things aren't an on-off switch. 00:18:41.610 --> 00:18:44.290 Most things develop on a spectrum. 00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:47.880 But for the most part, 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.580 the vast majority of people fall 00:18:50.580 --> 00:18:54.210 either on the male side or on the female side. 00:18:54.210 --> 00:18:56.280 And yes, it's true that scientists – 00:18:56.280 --> 00:18:59.460 that doctors have – and researchers – have been 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.110 finding more and more factors that go into, 00:19:01.110 --> 00:19:04.350 not only determining genetic sex, 00:19:04.350 --> 00:19:08.380 but determining the expression of those genes. 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:14.900 So it's truly a fascinating, complex field of study. 00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:16.300 But that does not mean that there is 00:19:16.300 --> 00:19:19.600 no such thing as biological sex. STEVE: Okay. 00:19:19.600 --> 00:19:22.520 THERYN: When it comes to the issue of pronouns, 00:19:22.520 --> 00:19:24.930 would you like me to give you my opinion on it? 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:26.550 STEVE: Yeah, briefly if you would because 00:19:26.550 --> 00:19:28.000 Kyle has been the most patient person in 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.800 the world waiting for his chance to get in. 00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:31.420 So, yes, you finish your statement and 00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:33.500 then I'm gonna get to Kyle. 00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:35.020 THERYN: Okay. My apologies. 00:19:35.020 --> 00:19:36.730 Well, firstly, I have a lot of sympathy 00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:39.250 for people who want to be referred to 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:41.890 by their pronouns. Obviously, as a trans woman, 00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:45.040 I know what it feels like to be 00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:48.910 misgendered and whatnot. 00:19:48.910 --> 00:19:50.830 And most people are reasonable in the sense that 00:19:50.830 --> 00:19:52.600 they would be reasonable enough 00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:56.570 to accommodate trans people and 00:19:56.570 --> 00:20:00.100 their preferred pronouns. 00:20:00.100 --> 00:20:02.100 And I'm sure – I mean, I would hope that 00:20:02.100 --> 00:20:04.490 if I were a student of Dr. Peterson, 00:20:04.490 --> 00:20:06.730 that he would refer to me as "she" 00:20:06.730 --> 00:20:09.040 and wouldn't have a problem with that. 00:20:09.040 --> 00:20:10.810 But at the end of the day, 00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:13.720 our personal-pronoun preference, it still is a preference 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.630 for what language other people use. 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:18.910 And at the end of the day, I don't have 00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.160 ultimate control over what Dr. Peterson – 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.030 what the language he chooses to use or 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:24.940 anybody else for that matter. 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:27.220 That's up to them. And the problem arises – 00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:28.700 STEVE: Okay. Let me find out then. 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:31.770 Let me find out. If she were a student of yours, what would you call her? 00:20:31.770 --> 00:20:33.570 JORDAN: "She." STEVE: You would. Okay. 00:20:33.570 --> 00:20:36.490 We've established that. Theryn, stand by 00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:39.220 for a second now. I do want – [chuckles] 00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:41.230 Thank you for your patience, Professor Kirkup. 00:20:41.230 --> 00:20:43.960 And I want to bring you in now because, 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:45.700 as I suggested earlier, in New York City, 00:20:45.700 --> 00:20:48.590 they have identified 31 gender identities. 00:20:48.590 --> 00:20:50.260 And apparently the law down 00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:51.880 there suggests that if businesses don't 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:54.100 accommodate an individual's chosen 00:20:54.100 --> 00:20:56.050 gender identity, there is the risk of 00:20:56.050 --> 00:20:59.080 a six-figure fine under the rules 00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:01.540 of the city's Commissioner of Human Rights. 00:21:01.540 --> 00:21:03.160 We have, in the province of Ontario 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.040 our own Ontario Human Rights Commission, 00:21:06.040 --> 00:21:07.640 and I wonder how similar our 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.340 legislation is here on this issue 00:21:10.340 --> 00:21:13.730 compared to what they have in New York City. 00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:15.540 KYLE: So, where I would start the discussion 00:21:15.540 --> 00:21:17.490 is to actually point out that 00:21:17.490 --> 00:21:19.389 even though we're talking about adding 00:21:19.389 --> 00:21:21.489 gender identity and gender expression to 00:21:21.489 --> 00:21:23.589 the Canadian Human Rights Act and 00:21:23.589 --> 00:21:25.570 provisions of the Criminal Code 00:21:25.570 --> 00:21:27.279 this is a long-standing practice in Canadian 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.989 human-rights jurisprudence. You can go 00:21:28.989 --> 00:21:31.199 back into the late 1990s. And the cases 00:21:31.199 --> 00:21:33.639 that we're seeing in the tribunals are 00:21:33.639 --> 00:21:37.450 not the kind of extreme examples of 00:21:37.450 --> 00:21:38.889 a number of different kinds of gender pronouns. 00:21:38.889 --> 00:21:40.959 What we're seeing is really 00:21:40.959 --> 00:21:43.239 more basic human rights questions. 00:21:43.239 --> 00:21:45.909 So, questions like are you required 00:21:45.909 --> 00:21:47.799 to undergo surgery in order to have 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.639 an identity document that properly captures 00:21:51.639 --> 00:21:52.899 who you are as a person? 00:21:52.899 --> 00:21:55.739 Discrimination in policing contexts, 00:21:55.739 --> 00:21:57.639 discrimination in the workplace. 00:21:57.639 --> 00:21:59.609 And so, I think the pronoun issue 00:21:59.609 --> 00:22:00.969 is really a red herring. 00:22:00.969 --> 00:22:03.269 When you look through the jurisprudence 00:22:03.269 --> 00:22:04.859 dating back to the 1990s, 00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:07.929 we're seeing much more fundamental questions – 00:22:07.929 --> 00:22:09.759 really basic human rights questions – 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.469 that are coming before the tribunals. 00:22:11.469 --> 00:22:15.149 And having reviewed the case law, 00:22:15.149 --> 00:22:17.669 I'm not seeing the kind of New York scenario 00:22:17.669 --> 00:22:19.470 that you're proposing at all. 00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:20.760 STEVE: Well, let me read some of 00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:22.059 the Ontario Human Rights Code to you 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:24.489 and then I'll get your feedback on that. 00:22:24.489 --> 00:22:26.390 "Discrimination," the Human Rights Code 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:28.779 says, "happens when a person experiences 00:22:28.779 --> 00:22:31.549 negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, 00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:33.359 because of their gender identity 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:35.559 or gender expression. It can be direct 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:37.959 and obvious or subtle and hidden, 00:22:37.959 --> 00:22:40.299 but harmful just the same. It can also happen 00:22:40.299 --> 00:22:42.369 on a bigger systemic level such as 00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:44.619 organizational rules or policies that 00:22:44.619 --> 00:22:48.039 look neutral but end up excluding trans people. ... 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:49.839 Organizations are liable for any 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.219 discrimination and harassment that happens. 00:22:52.219 --> 00:22:53.679 They are also liable for not 00:22:53.679 --> 00:22:56.109 accommodating a trans person's needs 00:22:56.109 --> 00:22:59.249 unless it would cause undue hardship." 00:22:59.249 --> 00:23:01.419 And again, Kyle, I'll get you to follow up on 00:23:01.419 --> 00:23:05.200 that inasmuch as if a trans person or 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.980 somebody whose gender identity was more, 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:09.459 shall we say, complicated than the male/female 00:23:09.459 --> 00:23:11.649 that we've been talking about so far, 00:23:11.649 --> 00:23:14.379 and the pronoun used to describe 00:23:14.379 --> 00:23:17.499 that person were not traditional, 00:23:17.499 --> 00:23:19.379 would the person have a case 00:23:19.379 --> 00:23:20.959 before the Human Rights Commission? 00:23:20.959 --> 00:23:22.209 KYLE: So, we haven't seen 00:23:22.209 --> 00:23:23.949 cases on that at this point. But I would 00:23:23.949 --> 00:23:25.899 say absolutely as a rule of – 00:23:25.899 --> 00:23:27.489 as a general rule that you should be thinking 00:23:27.489 --> 00:23:29.489 about in terms of employment settings, 00:23:29.489 --> 00:23:32.289 absolutely, respecting trans persons' 00:23:32.289 --> 00:23:35.750 pronoun choice is really fundamental. 00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:38.380 And I can also say that in lots of circumstances, 00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:40.720 a pronoun may not even be required. 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.020 There are lots of creative ways to avoid using 00:23:44.020 --> 00:23:47.650 gender pronouns at all. And so, I think that – 00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:49.030 But when you actually look at 00:23:49.030 --> 00:23:50.380 the cases that are coming before tribunals, 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.960 we're not seeing that to be, really, 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.520 the primary issue. It's much more 00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:57.490 basic human rights questions, 00:23:57.490 --> 00:24:00.010 which is what the federal legislation here, 00:24:00.010 --> 00:24:01.980 Bill C16, tries to accomplish. 00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:04.360 STEVE: All right. I think we've set the table now. 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:06.549 You want to get in on this now, I can tell. 00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:08.049 You've heard what the professor has to say. 00:24:08.049 --> 00:24:10.209 What's your response? 00:24:10.209 --> 00:24:11.460 JORDAN: Well, I don't understand 00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:12.530 what the claim that 00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:14.410 there's no such thing as biological sex means. 00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:17.470 And I certainly think it's – let's call it 00:24:17.470 --> 00:24:19.990 an error – to suggest that there's some 00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:23.000 sort of scientific consensus about that. 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.400 I mean, there's biological differences 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:27.490 between males and females 00:24:27.490 --> 00:24:29.500 in animals and human beings 00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:31.090 at every level of analysis from the – 00:24:31.090 --> 00:24:32.280 STEVE: Okay. I'm jumping in here. JORDAN: Yeah. 00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:33.759 STEVE: Because what about the notion 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:34.449 he put forward at the end there 00:24:34.449 --> 00:24:35.799 that if you do not refer to people 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:38.200 with the pronoun that they prefer to be 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:40.570 referred to, that is a form, according to 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:41.590 the Human Rights Commission, of discrimination? 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:43.419 JORDAN: It's not just a form of discrimination, 00:24:43.419 --> 00:24:45.690 it's a form of hate speech. 00:24:45.690 --> 00:24:47.500 That's why I made the video. 00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:51.170 I said that we were in danger of placing 00:24:51.170 --> 00:24:53.080 the refusal to use certain kinds of language 00:24:53.080 --> 00:24:56.210 into the same category as Holocaust denial, 00:24:56.210 --> 00:24:58.070 and suggested that maybe 00:24:58.070 --> 00:24:59.300 that wasn't such a good idea – 00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:01.200 especially since there's plenty of debate 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.380 to be had about gender issues in our society, 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:04.780 which I also think are also 00:25:04.780 --> 00:25:08.170 in danger of becoming illegal, and quite rapidly. 00:25:08.170 --> 00:25:10.179 So, it isn't clear to me how long 00:25:10.179 --> 00:25:11.350 we'll be able to have the talk 00:25:11.350 --> 00:25:13.960 that we're having right now. STEVE: Here are some – 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:16.009 KYLE: Can I jump in there – 00:25:16.009 --> 00:25:17.410 Can I jump in there on – STEVE: Please. 00:25:17.410 --> 00:25:19.140 KYLE: I think it's a common misconception 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:21.460 about Bill C16 that it's somehow going 00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:25.240 to make pronoun use into hate speech. 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:26.559 If you actually look at the provisions, 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.720 we're talking about very minor amendments 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.800 to the criminal code. 00:25:29.800 --> 00:25:31.640 For example, Section – JORDAN: They're not minor. 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:34.150 They put it into the hate-speech category. They're not minor at all. 00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:37.130 That's a misstatement. THERYN: I actually agree with you on that point. 00:25:37.130 --> 00:25:39.990 JORDAN: So don't tell me they're minor. THERYN: I think there's a lot of opportunity here – 00:25:39.990 --> 00:25:42.550 JORDAN: That's not – that's not right. THERYN: There's a lot of opportunity opening. 00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:44.799 KYLE: So Section – STEVE: Kyle, go ahead. 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.419 KYLE: So, Section 318 – Pardon me. 00:25:46.419 --> 00:25:48.909 So, Section 318 sets out a series of identifiable groups, 00:25:48.909 --> 00:25:51.350 and we're talking about the clearest of cases – 00:25:51.350 --> 00:25:54.399 the cases of advocating genocide. 00:25:54.399 --> 00:25:55.840 And we have a series of groups 00:25:55.840 --> 00:25:57.639 that are already identified in the code. 00:25:57.639 --> 00:25:59.499 And all this does is add gender identity and 00:25:59.499 --> 00:26:01.809 gender expression to the categories 00:26:01.809 --> 00:26:03.940 that are already identified. And so, I think we 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:06.220 really have to add some reasonableness 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:08.230 to this discussion, actually clearly 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:10.570 articulate what the provision does. 00:26:10.570 --> 00:26:12.070 STEVE: Well, let me be a little clearer about what 00:26:12.070 --> 00:26:15.669 some of the problems – what you might be 00:26:15.669 --> 00:26:17.230 asking for if you want to do this. 00:26:17.230 --> 00:26:19.929 For example, and Sheldon, bottom of Page 3 here, 00:26:19.929 --> 00:26:21.789 let's put this graphic up. 00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:24.129 "[P]ronoun misuse may become actionable 00:26:24.129 --> 00:26:25.720 through the Human Rights Tribunals and the courts. 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:27.639 And the remedies? Monetary damages, 00:26:27.639 --> 00:26:29.559 non-financial remedies, (for example, 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.269 ceasing the discriminatory practice or 00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:33.519 reinstatement to the job), and public interest 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:35.590 remedies (for example, changing 00:26:35.590 --> 00:26:37.059 hiring practices or developing 00:26:37.059 --> 00:26:38.769 non-discriminatory policies and procedures). 00:26:38.769 --> 00:26:41.340 Jail time is not one of them." 00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:43.179 Jordan, you're not going to go to jail if 00:26:43.179 --> 00:26:44.649 you keep this up. Do you find that reassuring? 00:26:44.649 --> 00:26:48.489 JORDAN: What if I don't pay the fine? 00:26:48.489 --> 00:26:50.619 STEVE: Then what? JORDAN: Then what? And let's talk about 00:26:50.619 --> 00:26:52.960 the legalities for a minute. As you know, 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:54.460 the University of Toronto sent me 00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:57.279 two warning letters – right? – and the second one 00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:58.869 basically asked me to stop talking about this. 00:26:58.869 --> 00:27:01.629 STEVE: Who sent the letters? JORDAN: The first – 00:27:01.629 --> 00:27:03.460 It's the administration, fundamentally, 00:27:03.460 --> 00:27:04.989 the higher up people in the administration. 00:27:04.989 --> 00:27:07.299 The last one was the Dean of the Faculty 00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:10.029 of Arts and Science. 00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:11.710 But it's coming from 00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:12.790 the top end of the university. 00:27:12.790 --> 00:27:13.870 STEVE: And the letter said essentially 00:27:13.870 --> 00:27:14.950 you you must call people by 00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:16.629 the pronouns they want? 00:27:16.629 --> 00:27:18.970 JORDAN: The letters basically said that – 00:27:18.970 --> 00:27:21.190 and this is paraphrasing, obviously – 00:27:21.190 --> 00:27:22.929 that I'm required to abide by the university 00:27:22.929 --> 00:27:25.099 policies and the Ontario Human Rights Code. 00:27:25.099 --> 00:27:27.190 And there's a strong implication in the letter, 00:27:27.190 --> 00:27:28.749 by having this discussion, 00:27:28.749 --> 00:27:30.489 that I wasn't doing so. 00:27:30.489 --> 00:27:31.879 And so, they're asking me to stop. 00:27:31.879 --> 00:27:32.929 And I can tell you also 00:27:32.929 --> 00:27:34.039 why they're asking me to stop 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.100 apart from that. The codes, as written, 00:27:37.100 --> 00:27:38.889 make the university just as liable 00:27:38.889 --> 00:27:42.369 for my speech as I am. So, not only is 00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:44.739 there a reasonable possibility that what 00:27:44.739 --> 00:27:46.539 I'm doing is uttering hate speech now 00:27:46.539 --> 00:27:48.659 under our law, but the university is 00:27:48.659 --> 00:27:50.919 legally responsible for that. 00:27:50.919 --> 00:27:52.629 And so, I think they consulted with their lawyers 00:27:52.629 --> 00:27:54.609 and decided that maybe the claim that 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:56.710 I was making in my video was correct – that – 00:27:56.710 --> 00:27:59.499 So – And so, I don't regard that as trivial. 00:27:59.499 --> 00:28:00.400 And I think that 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.920 the lawyer who's discussing this is 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.390 downplaying the significance of it tremendously. 00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:06.950 NICHOLAS: Could I speak to the campus 00:28:06.950 --> 00:28:07.900 climate about this? 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:09.350 STEVE: Go ahead. NICHOLAS: Because I don't agree with 00:28:09.350 --> 00:28:11.400 why Dr. Peterson has been asked 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.050 to stop abusing students on campus. 00:28:14.050 --> 00:28:16.270 JORDAN: To stop doing what? NICHOLAS: Abusing students – 00:28:16.270 --> 00:28:17.770 JORDAN: I see. NICHOLAS: – and other members of 00:28:17.770 --> 00:28:19.720 our learning community who do deserve 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:21.370 respect and do deserve to be able to work 00:28:21.370 --> 00:28:23.620 and learn and contribute to society 00:28:23.620 --> 00:28:27.970 in a place where, if they are physically assaulted, 00:28:27.970 --> 00:28:31.780 if they are – JORDAN: The assaults so far 00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:33.610 came from the social-justice warriors 00:28:33.610 --> 00:28:35.200 who were at this free-speech rally and 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:37.480 almost 2 million people have watched those, so far. 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:39.090 NICHOLAS: This is not accurate. This is not accurate. 00:28:39.090 --> 00:28:40.640 JORDAN: Well, you can look at the videos yourself 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:41.920 NICHOLAS: You are being actioned because people 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.470 have been making complaints about your behavior. 00:28:44.470 --> 00:28:46.170 JORDAN: Yes, I understand that. 00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:47.340 NICHOLAS: Yes. and so we're seeing 00:28:47.340 --> 00:28:48.693 a greater opportunity for social justice 00:28:48.693 --> 00:28:51.440 happening that many people won't understand. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:53.230 STEVE: Nick, can I be clear on something? 00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:54.940 You've accused him of abusing 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:56.543 students by not using the pronouns they 00:28:56.543 --> 00:28:57.976 want to be addressed by. 00:28:57.976 --> 00:28:59.240 NICHOLAS: That's how I see it. Absolutely. 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.090 STEVE: That is tantamount to abuse in your view. 00:29:01.090 --> 00:29:02.010 NICHOLAS: Absolutely! 00:29:02.010 --> 00:29:04.620 Many, many global documents, many organizations – 00:29:04.620 --> 00:29:06.840 JORDAN: How about violence? Is it tantamount to violence? 00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:07.830 NICHOLAS: Yes. Absolutely. 00:29:07.830 --> 00:29:09.670 JORDAN: How about hate speech? Is it tantamount to hate speech? 00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:11.240 NICHOLAS: Yes! Of course, it's hate speech. JORDAN: Fine. That's – 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:13.550 NICHOLAS: – to tell someone that you won't refer to them as – 00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:14.500 in a way that they – 00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:16.490 that recognizes their humanity and dignity. 00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:19.570 STEVE: Mary, let me get you in on this at this point. MARY: Sure. [chuckles] 00:29:19.570 --> 00:29:21.580 STEVE: You've got something you want to say or can I put a question to you? 00:29:21.580 --> 00:29:24.160 MARY: Uh, both go ahead. STEVE: Okay. MARY: Put the question and I'll – 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:25.880 STEVE: You're a writer, Mary. MARY: I am. 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:28.550 STEVE: I know you care about free speech because you're a writer. 00:29:28.550 --> 00:29:31.270 MARY: Yes. STEVE: Does Jordan Peterson 00:29:31.270 --> 00:29:32.710 have a little place in your heart 00:29:32.710 --> 00:29:34.510 because he's arguing free speech here? 00:29:34.510 --> 00:29:36.160 MARY: I think the interesting thing about 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.679 Jordan and how I feel about his video – 00:29:38.679 --> 00:29:40.870 And Jordan and I actually had an 00:29:40.870 --> 00:29:42.460 opportunity to talk at length before 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:45.160 I wrote The Walrus article. And he sails 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.559 really close to things that I think 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:49.660 people can relate to. And I think that we 00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:51.610 all want to have an open 00:29:51.610 --> 00:29:53.320 discourse, we want conversations to 00:29:53.320 --> 00:29:54.850 unfold, we want people to feel like they – 00:29:54.850 --> 00:29:56.590 if they have something to say – if they 00:29:56.590 --> 00:29:57.910 have a question, they can ask it – 00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:00.910 that they're not going to be censored. 00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:03.070 But he sails really close and then right past it. 00:30:03.070 --> 00:30:04.809 And that's where he and I part ways 00:30:04.809 --> 00:30:06.550 because what I don't really understand 00:30:06.550 --> 00:30:11.020 is when you listen to the video, 00:30:11.020 --> 00:30:14.349 he piles a lot of things into the basket of 00:30:14.349 --> 00:30:16.909 using the pronouns that people want. 00:30:16.909 --> 00:30:19.409 And it seems to me – 00:30:19.409 --> 00:30:21.979 And you can correct me if I'm wrong. 00:30:21.979 --> 00:30:23.239 But one of his anxieties – 00:30:23.239 --> 00:30:24.199 And he talks about being 00:30:24.199 --> 00:30:27.289 fearful and anxious in his video – 00:30:27.289 --> 00:30:31.919 that somehow there's a cabal of trans activists 00:30:31.919 --> 00:30:34.299 who have so much power that 00:30:34.299 --> 00:30:37.459 they are going to basically – 00:30:37.459 --> 00:30:39.779 Using the pronouns that people want 00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:41.769 and capitulating to these demands 00:30:41.769 --> 00:30:44.269 sort of pulls out the 00:30:44.269 --> 00:30:45.799 critical Jenga piece of 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:47.869 the Western canon, right? [chuckles] I mean, basically, 00:30:47.869 --> 00:30:50.149 Jordan is arguing that this is going to 00:30:50.149 --> 00:30:52.189 create chaos and anarchy and 00:30:52.189 --> 00:30:56.529 that it's essentially a Marxist plot that 00:30:56.529 --> 00:31:01.399 is there to sow violence and there to 00:31:01.399 --> 00:31:04.549 sow confusion and topple any kind of hierarchy. 00:31:04.549 --> 00:31:06.979 STEVE: Can I just jump in there for a second? 00:31:06.979 --> 00:31:08.629 Is that an accurate characterization of your view on this? 00:31:08.629 --> 00:31:10.669 MARY: I listened really closely to that tape. 00:31:10.669 --> 00:31:12.889 I think it is. STEVE: Is it – In your view, has she 00:31:12.889 --> 00:31:16.319 accurately characterized where you're coming from? 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.429 JORDAN: It's not a transexual cabal 00:31:18.429 --> 00:31:20.719 by any stretch of the imagination. 00:31:20.719 --> 00:31:23.579 Is it a cabal of radical left-wingers? 00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:25.579 Yes. It's a cabal of radical left-wingers, 00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:27.919 and they've been active behind and in 00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:29.989 front of the scenes increasingly over 00:31:29.989 --> 00:31:32.449 the last 30 years. And my estimation is 00:31:32.449 --> 00:31:34.759 that departments like Women Studies have 00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:36.469 trained between 300,000 00:31:36.469 --> 00:31:39.599 and 3 million radical left-wing activists. 00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.089 And they're making – MARY: And they're all 00:31:41.089 --> 00:31:44.029 underpaid, so don't worry. [LAUGHS] JORDAN: Well, they could 00:31:44.029 --> 00:31:46.339 pick higher-paying occupations if they 00:31:46.339 --> 00:31:48.379 wanted higher-paying occupations. But – 00:31:48.379 --> 00:31:51.109 NICHOLAS: Because sexism does not exist. [chuckles] 00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:51.999 Are you kidding me? 00:31:51.999 --> 00:31:54.389 STEVE: Let's not get off topic here, folks. Go ahead, Mary. 00:31:54.389 --> 00:31:56.579 NICHOLAS: I think we're directly on point. STEVE: Mary, come on back. 00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:01.109 [inaudible crosstalk] MARY: So, I think Jordan has conceded that – 00:32:01.109 --> 00:32:06.719 I think I've grasped his concern At the very least, I've grasped the concern 00:32:06.719 --> 00:32:09.669 that there is a kind of chipping away 00:32:09.669 --> 00:32:12.529 at order as we've come to know it. 00:32:12.529 --> 00:32:13.639 The other thing that Jordan and I have in 00:32:13.639 --> 00:32:16.929 common is a real interest in language, 00:32:16.929 --> 00:32:20.149 and the idea of what can happen when 00:32:20.149 --> 00:32:24.499 language changes, when it evolves. 00:32:24.499 --> 00:32:26.029 And I was thinking before I came here – 00:32:26.029 --> 00:32:28.440 I was thinking about – I grew up in the Bronx 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:32.840 and I was born in '61. So, I remember very well 00:32:32.840 --> 00:32:36.420 when we went from "Mrs." to "Ms." 00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:38.720 And my father was appalled. And he kept 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:41.929 saying "Ms" and he thought was funny 00:32:41.929 --> 00:32:43.850 because if you couldn't actually identify somebody as 00:32:43.850 --> 00:32:47.059 either – particularly a female – as either 00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:51.679 married or single, then – chaos, right? STEVE: The notion of 00:32:51.679 --> 00:32:53.299 characterizing a woman independent of 00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:55.610 her marital status was controversial at the time. MARY: That's right. And apparently very, 00:32:55.610 --> 00:32:58.250 very confusing. And so, I'm reminded of 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:01.160 that when there's the – 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.070 when the suggestion is made that somehow if we 00:33:04.070 --> 00:33:06.700 have words that don't fit into 00:33:06.700 --> 00:33:08.600 something that we're very familiar with 00:33:08.600 --> 00:33:11.419 and that we've used to date, that chaos 00:33:11.419 --> 00:33:14.270 will ensue, that everyone will be confused. I don't believe that. JORDAN: Well, there's two differences. 00:33:14.270 --> 00:33:15.650 MARY: There's no evidence of that historically. 00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:17.720 STEVE: I hear you. But there was no law 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:20.240 obliging people to use the word "Ms." 00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.309 MARY: But there were laws to oblige 00:33:22.309 --> 00:33:26.030 people to change the way that we 00:33:26.030 --> 00:33:30.380 referred to Black people, for example. 00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:32.020 There was a time when 00:33:32.020 --> 00:33:34.070 there were any number of words that we 00:33:34.070 --> 00:33:36.380 now can only say as letters. Can I say 00:33:36.380 --> 00:33:38.870 them on TVO? People were called "darkies," 00:33:38.870 --> 00:33:43.460 "niggers," "coons" in polite company. And that evolved. 00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:45.770 Those things changed. When I was 00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:47.390 a teenager, people were still using those words. 00:33:47.390 --> 00:33:49.970 STEVE: So, this is a natural evolution in in your view. 00:33:49.970 --> 00:33:51.559 MARY: This is a natural evolution. 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:53.870 And nobody's – Chaos will not ensue. And – JORDAN: If it's a natural 00:33:53.870 --> 00:33:55.730 evolution, then we don't need hate-speech 00:33:55.730 --> 00:33:57.919 law to enforce it. MARY: But we obviously – 00:33:57.919 --> 00:34:00.380 we do because we can drive social change. 00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:01.940 And it doesn't all have to lead to chaos 00:34:01.940 --> 00:34:04.700 is my point. And I think that 00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:06.590 we have seen the flip side of – 00:34:06.590 --> 00:34:09.590 Jordan's argument – I think – has in fact – we 00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:11.719 do have a historical record of that. 00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:13.310 So, when it was left to others to name 00:34:13.310 --> 00:34:16.250 people, we lost indigenous names. 00:34:16.250 --> 00:34:18.199 I come from – My mother's from Ireland. 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:19.699 She was from a generation that finally got to 00:34:19.699 --> 00:34:21.409 learn her own language again. 00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:22.730 She couldn't even speak Gaelic to her 00:34:22.730 --> 00:34:23.989 parents because they hadn't been allowed 00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:26.000 to speak it. So we know. We've seen the 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.730 effect when people can't use their own 00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:30.199 language, when they can't use their own names. 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:31.850 STEVE: Okay. Let me get Jordan to respond to that. 00:34:31.850 --> 00:34:33.230 A natural evolution of things, Jordan. 00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:38.119 That's how it's being described. JORDAN: Look. Words are tools. 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:39.350 Maybe that was one of the great philosophical 00:34:39.350 --> 00:34:41.780 discoveries of the 20th century. 00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:43.909 And that means – And people are always 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:46.219 looking for new tools to operate in the world. 00:34:46.219 --> 00:34:49.429 And if you invent a good tool, 00:34:49.429 --> 00:34:50.949 like a new word, then people will pick it up 00:34:50.949 --> 00:34:53.480 just as fast as they possibly can. 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:55.730 You really see that in English. But the words 00:34:55.730 --> 00:34:57.800 that are being required now are not good 00:34:57.800 --> 00:34:59.480 tools and that's why people aren't using them. 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.940 And so, instead, what we have is the 00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:03.740 use of force, despite the fact that 00:35:03.740 --> 00:35:05.750 that's being denied – although we've 00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:07.550 already established that, at least in the 00:35:07.550 --> 00:35:08.869 opinion of one of the people on this 00:35:08.869 --> 00:35:10.700 panel, I'm already guilty of a hate crime, 00:35:10.700 --> 00:35:12.140 which is what I said I was guilty of 00:35:12.140 --> 00:35:14.720 when I made that video. 00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:15.830 The issue with the law is quite 00:35:15.830 --> 00:35:17.930 straightforward. The government is 00:35:17.930 --> 00:35:19.910 responding – is requiring us to use 00:35:19.910 --> 00:35:21.859 certain language. That's not the same as 00:35:21.859 --> 00:35:24.260 not using certain language. And it's a 00:35:24.260 --> 00:35:25.820 line – And this is the fundamental issue. 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:27.560 This is maybe the fundamental issue. 00:35:27.560 --> 00:35:30.260 That's a line we should not cross. 00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:31.520 We should not allow the government to 00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:34.160 decide which words we're allowed to use. 00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:36.740 It's a mistake – and it's a mistake that 00:35:36.740 --> 00:35:38.150 strikes right at the heart of free speech. 00:35:38.150 --> 00:35:39.920 And the thing about free speech 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:41.840 is that it's not the right to 00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.930 criticize your leaders, which is what 00:35:44.930 --> 00:35:46.730 people usually characterize it as. 00:35:46.730 --> 00:35:49.250 Freedom of speech is freedom to engage 00:35:49.250 --> 00:35:51.230 in the processes that we use to 00:35:51.230 --> 00:35:54.020 formulate the problems in our society, 00:35:54.020 --> 00:35:56.000 to generate solutions to them, and reach a 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.040 consensus. It's actually a mechanism – 00:35:58.040 --> 00:36:00.109 it's not just another value. And you should 00:36:00.109 --> 00:36:01.849 put constraints on free speech with the 00:36:01.849 --> 00:36:03.920 most extreme caution because you 00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:06.140 interfere with people's ability to think 00:36:06.140 --> 00:36:07.820 and communicate. STEVE: Let me get Theryn to 00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:09.109 weigh in. Theryn, you've been hearing the 00:36:09.109 --> 00:36:10.490 debate here in the studio. Why don't you 00:36:10.490 --> 00:36:13.609 weigh in and pick it up? THERYN: Well, I guess I'm 00:36:13.609 --> 00:36:15.530 in the same boat as Dr. Peterson when 00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:17.510 it comes to being guilty of a hate crime – 00:36:17.510 --> 00:36:21.619 or a – sorry – a hate-speech infringement – 00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.349 because, I mean, I draw the line somewhere. 00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:27.710 For example, I refuse to use pronouns 00:36:27.710 --> 00:36:30.859 like "zes" and "zir." I don't have a problem 00:36:30.859 --> 00:36:32.750 using "they/them/their" pronouns – 00:36:32.750 --> 00:36:34.520 and that also happens just to be because of 00:36:34.520 --> 00:36:36.109 the circles in which I move. I happen to 00:36:36.109 --> 00:36:37.910 know people who use gender-neutral 00:36:37.910 --> 00:36:40.339 pronouns so I've gotten used to it. 00:36:40.339 --> 00:36:42.859 But the vast majority of people are not 00:36:42.859 --> 00:36:45.410 going to come into contact with the 00:36:45.410 --> 00:36:47.060 incredibly small fraction of the 00:36:47.060 --> 00:36:49.810 population of gender non-binary people. 00:36:49.810 --> 00:36:53.060 And that's why this is never 00:36:53.060 --> 00:36:54.170 really going to pick up, 00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:56.000 in my opinion. When it comes to 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:59.570 "Mrs." and "Ms.," at least half of 00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:03.350 the population is female, so there was 00:37:03.350 --> 00:37:06.470 some interaction with the term "Mrs." 00:37:06.470 --> 00:37:10.670 versus "Ms.," and there were some 00:37:10.670 --> 00:37:12.080 interactions so people could pick it up. 00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:14.780 There just aren't enough gender 00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:17.180 non-binary – I use that in quotation marks, 00:37:17.180 --> 00:37:19.370 because I hate that term because it's a 00:37:19.370 --> 00:37:21.920 political term not a gender 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.080 identity or a term of 00:37:24.080 --> 00:37:25.520 identification. It's just a political term. 00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:28.700 But regardless, I don't think it's 00:37:28.700 --> 00:37:30.500 going to pick up. There's just not enough 00:37:30.500 --> 00:37:33.530 of these people to interact with. 00:37:33.530 --> 00:37:36.440 STEVE: The Twittersphere has been buzzing with this conversation. 00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.890 And let's just pull one up here. 00:37:39.890 --> 00:37:41.780 Let's pull up one tweet. This was 00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:42.950 tweeted to a number of people including, 00:37:42.950 --> 00:37:44.960 as you can see in the middle, Jordan B. Peterson, 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.640 who's on our program tonight. 00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:49.880 "I so look forward to Bill C16 putting 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.210 your kind of silly trolling to an end," it says. 00:37:52.210 --> 00:37:55.280 There are people – Let's go to our 00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.740 Professor Kyle in Ottawa. "There are 00:37:57.740 --> 00:37:59.840 people out there who hope that C16 lives 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:02.720 up to Jordan's worst fears. Do you agree 00:38:02.720 --> 00:38:05.690 that C16 ought to be able to prevent 00:38:05.690 --> 00:38:08.540 people from expressing negative opinions 00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:11.990 about transgender people?" KYLE: So, first I want 00:38:11.990 --> 00:38:14.630 to clarify that Bill C16 only applies to 00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.480 federally-regulated entities. 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:19.010 So, for example, the University of Toronto is 00:38:19.010 --> 00:38:20.720 under provincial jurisdiction, so it is 00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:23.060 therefore subject to the Ontario Human Rights Code. 00:38:23.060 --> 00:38:24.140 So, I think that's an 00:38:24.140 --> 00:38:26.540 important point to note. I also want to 00:38:26.540 --> 00:38:28.490 note there's been a lot of talk about 00:38:28.490 --> 00:38:31.100 hate crimes. That seems to be 00:38:31.100 --> 00:38:33.380 kind of an American import into our discussion. 00:38:33.380 --> 00:38:35.690 The only two changes that 00:38:35.690 --> 00:38:38.990 this Bill C16 make are to make minor 00:38:38.990 --> 00:38:43.100 amendments to Section 318 and 718 of the Criminal Code. 00:38:43.100 --> 00:38:44.930 The first is advocating genocide, 00:38:44.930 --> 00:38:46.940 as I've talked about – a very, very extreme, high standard. 00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:48.980 And then second off, 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:51.590 at sentencing, after an offense has been 00:38:51.590 --> 00:38:53.600 committed and the person has been found guilty, 00:38:53.600 --> 00:38:57.080 what 718 does is it tells judges that 00:38:57.080 --> 00:39:00.200 they ought to treat hate motivation as 00:39:00.200 --> 00:39:02.540 an aggravating factor at sentencing – 00:39:02.540 --> 00:39:04.550 to treat that as a more severe form. 00:39:04.550 --> 00:39:07.760 And currently, we have a series of identities 00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.310 that are set out in 718 – things like sexual 00:39:10.310 --> 00:39:13.670 orientation, race. We don't have currently 00:39:13.670 --> 00:39:14.930 gender identity and gender expression there. 00:39:14.930 --> 00:39:17.450 And so, that's what this does. 00:39:17.450 --> 00:39:18.890 So, I think – I just want to make it very 00:39:18.890 --> 00:39:20.690 clear that we ought not to be importing 00:39:20.690 --> 00:39:23.860 American concepts into the discussion here. 00:39:23.860 --> 00:39:27.380 And so, to the extent that Bill C16 00:39:27.380 --> 00:39:31.010 makes changes only to – in the Canadian 00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:33.710 Human Rights Act context – to federally 00:39:33.710 --> 00:39:35.690 regulated entities, which is not the 00:39:35.690 --> 00:39:37.310 University of Toronto. STEVE: Nicholas, let me 00:39:37.310 --> 00:39:39.620 follow up with you. Why in your view do 00:39:39.620 --> 00:39:41.600 you think the trans community needs this 00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:43.310 kind of legislative protection? 00:39:43.310 --> 00:39:44.690 NICHOLAS: Well, thank you. That's basically the point 00:39:44.690 --> 00:39:46.520 that hasn't been raised yet which is 00:39:46.520 --> 00:39:48.940 that people are actually suffering huge 00:39:48.940 --> 00:39:52.550 lack of access to resources that will 00:39:52.550 --> 00:39:54.500 allow people to survive. So, people are 00:39:54.500 --> 00:39:56.360 being physically assaulted, people do not 00:39:56.360 --> 00:39:58.190 have counselors that they can go to who 00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:01.730 are not going to – as Dr. Peterson has 00:40:01.730 --> 00:40:04.070 done on YouTube – recommend that they 00:40:04.070 --> 00:40:06.190 actually become more anxious and more 00:40:06.190 --> 00:40:10.220 upset about situations. People are being assaulted. 00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:12.140 I brought all sorts of really 00:40:12.140 --> 00:40:16.250 depressing stats that – People who are 00:40:16.250 --> 00:40:18.950 leaning towards thinking that this is 00:40:18.950 --> 00:40:20.990 not that big of a deal, those people need 00:40:20.990 --> 00:40:24.710 to look at those stats. But many people – STEVE: Give us one. Give us one stat. 00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:28.370 NICHOLAS: Yeah. So, 58% of students 00:40:28.370 --> 00:40:30.200 could not get academic transcripts with 00:40:30.200 --> 00:40:31.870 their correct name or pronoun. 00:40:31.870 --> 00:40:34.400 That causes a huge chain of events for 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.290 students or anybody who's had any kind 00:40:36.290 --> 00:40:38.660 of academic training. As everyone 00:40:38.660 --> 00:40:40.220 recognizes, we need to be able to have 00:40:40.220 --> 00:40:42.130 references, we need to be able to have resumes, 00:40:42.130 --> 00:40:45.890 we need to be able to get jobs. 00:40:45.890 --> 00:40:48.710 STEVE: So, I want to be sure that I'm 00:40:48.710 --> 00:40:50.270 clearly understanding your point here, 00:40:50.270 --> 00:40:52.610 which is – and therefore they feel disrespected, 00:40:52.610 --> 00:40:54.260 and therefore this affects their life in 00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:56.330 a very real way? Is that right? 00:40:56.330 --> 00:40:58.100 NICHOLAS: The feeling of disrespect is not as 00:40:58.100 --> 00:41:00.950 important as the ways that people in 00:41:00.950 --> 00:41:02.960 authority are able to circumvent the 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:05.300 possibilities for living. So, it has more 00:41:05.300 --> 00:41:06.740 to do with not being able to find housing, 00:41:06.740 --> 00:41:08.990 and therefore being homeless. 00:41:08.990 --> 00:41:10.970 It has more to do with not being able to get 00:41:10.970 --> 00:41:13.190 jobs because people are discriminated against. 00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:15.620 So we're not actually talking – 00:41:15.620 --> 00:41:16.850 we shouldn't be talking about free speech. 00:41:16.850 --> 00:41:18.230 What we should be talking about are the 00:41:18.230 --> 00:41:19.880 social issues facing people who are 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:21.190 being discriminated against 00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:23.440 and what that looks like on campus – 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:26.380 which is that some professors refuse to offer 00:41:26.380 --> 00:41:28.960 basic dignity to students and colleagues. 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.650 And that leads to people missing classes, 00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:34.869 it leads to people dropping out, it leads 00:41:34.869 --> 00:41:38.170 to a lack of positive opportunity for 00:41:38.170 --> 00:41:40.690 society to actually benefit from the 00:41:40.690 --> 00:41:43.060 contributions of many, many people. 00:41:43.060 --> 00:41:44.859 And I also don't teach that there's a huge 00:41:44.859 --> 00:41:46.390 divide between trans people and 00:41:46.390 --> 00:41:47.980 non trans people because I would say 00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:49.839 the number is 100% of people 00:41:49.839 --> 00:41:52.270 will benefit from more open discussion. 00:41:52.270 --> 00:41:54.220 And one of the problems is that 00:41:54.220 --> 00:41:55.690 it's being addressed in a black-and-white way. 00:41:55.690 --> 00:41:57.400 So, it's too bad that we can't actually 00:41:57.400 --> 00:41:58.990 have an open conversation because there's 00:41:58.990 --> 00:42:00.910 a huge wall of violence between us. 00:42:00.910 --> 00:42:02.680 STEVE: Here is somebody who did not 00:42:02.680 --> 00:42:03.940 share your view on that because we 00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:05.470 invited another guest to be on the 00:42:05.470 --> 00:42:07.960 program today. And this person initially 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:09.670 said "yes," and then sent a Facebook 00:42:09.670 --> 00:42:11.589 message to our producer [unknown] 00:42:11.589 --> 00:42:13.780 [? Schamberg] saying, "You know what? 00:42:13.780 --> 00:42:15.490 Changed my mind." "Giving Jordan Peterson this 00:42:15.490 --> 00:42:17.619 platform serves to legitimize 00:42:17.619 --> 00:42:19.960 his views which are based on bigotry and misinformation. 00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.210 The humanity and rights 00:42:22.210 --> 00:42:24.520 of transgender non-binary and intersex 00:42:24.520 --> 00:42:26.200 people are not a matter of debate, 00:42:26.200 --> 00:42:28.599 and holding a debate which places a false 00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:30.160 equivalency between the views expressed 00:42:30.160 --> 00:42:31.930 by Peterson and the human rights 00:42:31.930 --> 00:42:33.940 concerns of the trans community would be 00:42:33.940 --> 00:42:36.369 an act of transphobia. Therefore, none of 00:42:36.369 --> 00:42:40.839 us wish to participate in this." Okay. 00:42:40.839 --> 00:42:43.119 NICHOLAS:Thank you. Thank you for reading that. It was a very 00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:44.920 important perspective. STEVE: That's why I read it. I 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.099 wonder whether, Jordan, 00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:49.359 everybody's talking past each other here. 00:42:49.359 --> 00:42:50.500 You are trying to make a point about free speech. 00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:53.200 JORDAN: I don't think we're talking past each other. 00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:54.849 STEVE: The other side – Well, but the others – You're 00:42:54.849 --> 00:42:56.140 trying to make a point about free speech. 00:42:56.140 --> 00:42:57.430 The other side is trying to make 00:42:57.430 --> 00:42:59.800 a point about the rights – the human 00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:01.480 rights of trans people. That's not the 00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:03.430 point that you're trying to make. 00:43:03.430 --> 00:43:05.079 Do we have two different groups here that are 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:06.550 trying to make two different points and 00:43:06.550 --> 00:43:08.109 they find themselves in the same bowl of soup, 00:43:08.109 --> 00:43:10.030 and that's why this has turned into 00:43:10.030 --> 00:43:11.920 the conflagration it has? 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:13.960 JORDAN: Well, it's partly that, because the issues we're 00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:15.550 discussing have to center on some 00:43:15.550 --> 00:43:17.200 actual issues, and they happen to be 00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:19.450 centering on the issue surrounding 00:43:19.450 --> 00:43:22.660 transgender language. But I don't think 00:43:22.660 --> 00:43:24.550 we're talking past each other at all in 00:43:24.550 --> 00:43:27.220 a fundamental sense. I mean, I think that 00:43:27.220 --> 00:43:28.960 the real problem here is that 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.599 there's a concerted attempt made being 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:34.300 made by many people to 00:43:34.300 --> 00:43:36.730 subvert all values to the value of equality of outcome. 00:43:36.730 --> 00:43:40.030 And we need more than one value, 00:43:40.030 --> 00:43:41.140 first of all, if we're going to survive 00:43:41.140 --> 00:43:43.570 as a society, because you can't solve 00:43:43.570 --> 00:43:46.270 every problem with the same approach. 00:43:46.270 --> 00:43:48.490 But there are more insidious things, in my 00:43:48.490 --> 00:43:50.650 estimation, going on underneath. 00:43:50.650 --> 00:43:53.650 I mean even the the missive that you just read 00:43:53.650 --> 00:43:55.990 said that, well, even providing me with a 00:43:55.990 --> 00:43:58.390 platform – let's call it – to express my 00:43:58.390 --> 00:44:00.430 views is something that shouldn't be allowed. 00:44:00.430 --> 00:44:02.290 It's like, "Yes, that's why I made the video." 00:44:02.290 --> 00:44:04.150 It was because many people are 00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:06.160 claiming that the expression of these 00:44:06.160 --> 00:44:07.660 sorts of views should no longer be permitted. 00:44:07.660 --> 00:44:11.140 And it's this view for now. 00:44:11.140 --> 00:44:13.150 But this is a minor issue in some ways 00:44:13.150 --> 00:44:15.280 compared to the larger issue that's at stake, 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.560 which is our right to have 00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:19.120 discussions of this sort at all. 00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:20.470 Like, I mean, one thing that happened right when 00:44:20.470 --> 00:44:22.090 we started this was that there was an 00:44:22.090 --> 00:44:23.650 initial claim, for example, that there's 00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:26.170 no such thing as biological sex. 00:44:26.170 --> 00:44:28.810 Well, I believe quite firmly that if we continue 00:44:28.810 --> 00:44:30.730 on our present path at the universities 00:44:30.730 --> 00:44:32.740 for five more years, that's a discussion we 00:44:32.740 --> 00:44:34.150 will not actually be able to have on campuses. 00:44:34.150 --> 00:44:37.030 Because – STEVE: Because you believe – JORDAN: By fiat. I mean, 00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:39.850 the legislation already implicitly presumes 00:44:39.850 --> 00:44:43.600 that biological sex, gender identity, 00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:45.100 and gender expression – which we haven't 00:44:45.100 --> 00:44:47.320 even talked about yet – vary independently. 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:51.310 That is simply not true. STEVE: Theryn, there – 00:44:51.310 --> 00:44:52.870 the person who sent that Facebook message 00:44:52.870 --> 00:44:54.160 thinks that we're partaking in 00:44:54.160 --> 00:44:55.930 transphobia just by having this debate. 00:44:55.930 --> 00:44:58.000 I hope that's not the case. But I wonder if 00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.370 you could give us your explanation for 00:45:00.370 --> 00:45:04.060 why some people adamantly refuse even 00:45:04.060 --> 00:45:05.830 to have this discussion – that the notion 00:45:05.830 --> 00:45:07.660 of having this discussion is somehow transphobic. 00:45:07.660 --> 00:45:14.520 THERYN: I think it has to do with – 00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:16.630 There's a lacking when it 00:45:16.630 --> 00:45:19.120 comes to actually being able 00:45:19.120 --> 00:45:22.840 to defend your points through argument. 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:24.730 So, if you open up the discussion for argument, 00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:27.720 they know they will lose. 00:45:27.720 --> 00:45:30.490 I think it's absolutely ludicrous and 00:45:30.490 --> 00:45:32.590 insane to say that having this 00:45:32.590 --> 00:45:36.040 discussion is, by default, transphobic. 00:45:36.040 --> 00:45:38.500 I think it's even more – it's equally 00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:40.630 ludicrous to call Dr. Peterson – what he 00:45:40.630 --> 00:45:44.290 said – transphobic. I think it takes – 00:45:44.290 --> 00:45:47.440 Using that term so willy-nilly, 00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.540 it takes the emotional response to 00:45:49.540 --> 00:45:51.760 a term like "transphobia" and [conflates] it 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:55.750 with something as, in my opinion, 00:45:55.750 --> 00:45:57.550 as productive as having an open discussion. 00:45:57.550 --> 00:46:00.040 And I think that's very insidious. 00:46:00.040 --> 00:46:01.570 And I think that's very manipulative. 00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:03.430 STEVE: Kyle? Are we being transphobic here by 00:46:03.430 --> 00:46:06.670 having this debate? KYLE: Well, I do worry about 00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:09.220 setting up a false equivalency 00:46:09.220 --> 00:46:11.650 in this conversation and really even having – 00:46:11.650 --> 00:46:13.780 making the premise that trans lives are 00:46:13.780 --> 00:46:15.550 up for debate. They're not up for debate. 00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:17.200 Human rights aren't up for debate. 00:46:17.200 --> 00:46:18.310 And the reason that I agreed to be on 00:46:18.310 --> 00:46:19.990 the program is that I've been very troubled 00:46:19.990 --> 00:46:22.270 by the misinformation about what the law 00:46:22.270 --> 00:46:24.610 is actually going to do. And so, I really 00:46:24.610 --> 00:46:25.990 grappled with whether or not I wanted 00:46:25.990 --> 00:46:28.000 to participate in this discussion. 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.560 But I thought it was very important to really 00:46:29.560 --> 00:46:31.900 try to dial back the hateful rhetoric 00:46:31.900 --> 00:46:33.900 and actually do a very careful 00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:36.190 discussion about what the law is 00:46:36.190 --> 00:46:37.780 actually designed to achieve and, 00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:40.390 ultimately, to promote a more equitable 00:46:40.390 --> 00:46:42.390 and just society. So, we've talked about 00:46:42.390 --> 00:46:44.590 freedom of expression to use the 00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:46.300 Canadian term, but we should also be 00:46:46.300 --> 00:46:49.200 talking about other values like equality 00:46:49.200 --> 00:46:52.330 and anti-racism, I think. STEVE: Just curious, 00:46:52.330 --> 00:46:53.620 Mary, I'm gonna get to in one sec. 00:46:53.620 --> 00:46:55.300 curious, though. You've now participated 00:46:55.300 --> 00:46:58.480 in 90% of the program. We're just about done. 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.880 Do you – Was it a good idea for you to come on? 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.980 KYLE: I think that it's an opportunity 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:05.500 to try to work through some of 00:47:05.500 --> 00:47:07.840 the legal issues, the social and human rights 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:11.500 and equality issues, and so, I'm happy 00:47:11.500 --> 00:47:13.060 to be here. But I recognize that other 00:47:13.060 --> 00:47:14.950 people's experiences – they might find, 00:47:14.950 --> 00:47:16.420 ultimately, that participating in this 00:47:16.420 --> 00:47:19.030 program was a mistake. And time will tell. 00:47:19.030 --> 00:47:21.610 STEVE: Mary, you wanted to follow up. MARY: Well, I certainly – sorry – 00:47:21.610 --> 00:47:23.080 I certainly want to say that I found 00:47:23.080 --> 00:47:25.390 Kyle – I found that what you brought to it 00:47:25.390 --> 00:47:26.860 in terms of putting the bill 00:47:26.860 --> 00:47:28.330 into perspective actually really helpful, 00:47:28.330 --> 00:47:30.070 and probably helpful to a lot of people. 00:47:30.070 --> 00:47:32.500 So, I'm glad that Kyle was here. 00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:33.760 I think, for me, one of the things that I'm really – 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.520 I felt anxious about coming in – 00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:39.250 and I'm still puzzling over – why this issue? 00:47:39.250 --> 00:47:42.790 Why this issue? So – and I do think – at the risk 00:47:42.790 --> 00:47:45.630 of bringing in the United States again, 00:47:45.630 --> 00:47:47.950 there does seem to be a similarity 00:47:47.950 --> 00:47:49.960 between some of the rhetoric we're 00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:51.430 hearing down south right now through 00:47:51.430 --> 00:47:53.440 the election and this. It's been – 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:56.650 It feels like it's greatly exaggerated – 00:47:56.650 --> 00:48:00.010 sort of what can – what will fallout from this, what will – 00:48:00.010 --> 00:48:03.310 And we're sort of – It feels like a bit of 00:48:03.310 --> 00:48:05.950 a tempest in a teapot. I don't see 00:48:05.950 --> 00:48:08.050 the connections that Jordan is making. 00:48:08.050 --> 00:48:09.280 And as a person who identifies as transgender, 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:12.370 it's very, very confusing that this is 00:48:12.370 --> 00:48:15.010 somehow up for discussion. STEVE: You saw the 00:48:15.010 --> 00:48:16.480 tape at the beginning of the program 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.610 of the – I mean he tried to give a speech at 00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:22.210 a university campus and was really quite 00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:24.490 mercilessly shouted down. MARY: And that would 00:48:24.490 --> 00:48:26.110 be one of the places where Jordan and I 00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:28.360 would have some common ground in 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:30.870 that there has been a trend, 00:48:30.870 --> 00:48:34.170 in some ways, for people to allow 00:48:34.170 --> 00:48:36.970 no platforming, and, "This person's views 00:48:36.970 --> 00:48:38.530 are objectionable and we don't want them 00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:40.030 to come on the campus." STEVE: What do you think of that? 00:48:40.030 --> 00:48:42.520 MARY: I think it's probably 00:48:42.520 --> 00:48:44.650 best not discussed in the context of 00:48:44.650 --> 00:48:47.050 someone's personal identity, right? [chuckles] 00:48:47.050 --> 00:48:48.430 So,that's part of my – that's part of what 00:48:48.430 --> 00:48:50.860 I'm bothered by by this discussion. So – 00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:52.390 STEVE: But if you can't have a discussion about 00:48:52.390 --> 00:48:54.640 free speech on a university campus, 00:48:54.640 --> 00:48:55.690 then I guess you can't have one, 00:48:55.690 --> 00:48:56.770 because that's supposed to be where they happen, isn't it? 00:48:56.770 --> 00:48:59.110 MARY: I agree with you. I think that 00:48:59.110 --> 00:49:00.760 that is a problem. What I'm trying to say 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:02.920 is that those issues came up around – 00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:06.430 issues of someone who was 00:49:06.430 --> 00:49:07.810 pro-Israel who wanted to come onto campus – 00:49:07.810 --> 00:49:09.670 those things are political. 00:49:09.670 --> 00:49:12.880 My identity, my personal identity, my gender 00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:14.050 identity is very separate from my 00:49:14.050 --> 00:49:15.790 political identity. And so, it's very 00:49:15.790 --> 00:49:17.620 strange to have this to be where we're 00:49:17.620 --> 00:49:19.660 going to plant the flag and say, 00:49:19.660 --> 00:49:21.370 "Enough with this crazy political correctness!" [chuckles] 00:49:21.370 --> 00:49:23.350 "You don't get to choose your pronouns!" 00:49:23.350 --> 00:49:25.330 It seems trivial to me. JORDAN: I thought it was 00:49:25.330 --> 00:49:28.090 an axiom, say, of feminism, for example, 00:49:28.090 --> 00:49:30.820 that the personal was political. 00:49:30.820 --> 00:49:32.950 And isn't that the –? That's a famous phrase. 00:49:32.950 --> 00:49:35.110 The personal is political. STEVE: Okay. But speaking – NICHOLAS: The personal is 00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:37.330 political when someone is attacking you 00:49:37.330 --> 00:49:39.400 on a basis that is personal and that you 00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.590 can't change about yourself. That's a – 00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:44.350 That is political. And that's when people 00:49:44.350 --> 00:49:46.780 sometimes become politicized is when 00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:48.460 they realize that no matter what they do 00:49:48.460 --> 00:49:50.350 in the world, there will be people who 00:49:50.350 --> 00:49:52.840 will continue to attack them on racist grounds, 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:55.150 on gender and sexual violence grounds. 00:49:55.150 --> 00:49:57.100 And that's why people start to fight back, 00:49:57.100 --> 00:49:58.570 and that's why people object. 00:49:58.570 --> 00:50:00.790 But on – JORDAN And your attempts to regulate 00:50:00.790 --> 00:50:02.920 my language use and your repeated – NICHOLAS: I don't care about 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:04.450 your language use. I care about the 00:50:04.450 --> 00:50:07.510 safety of the people who are being harmed. 00:50:07.510 --> 00:50:09.580 JORDAN: I know. People who make your kinds of 00:50:09.580 --> 00:50:10.900 arguments are always concerned with 00:50:10.900 --> 00:50:12.730 other people's safety. NICHOLAS: I'm concerned with 00:50:12.730 --> 00:50:13.410 my own safety. 00:50:13.410 --> 00:50:15.690 My – Just so that people are aware, 00:50:15.690 --> 00:50:18.990 my physical, emotional, life, and livelihood 00:50:18.990 --> 00:50:21.240 is at risk from being here. And that's not true of everyone. 00:50:21.240 --> 00:50:23.610 JORDAN: In comparison to mine, say. NICHOLAS: I don't know about 00:50:23.610 --> 00:50:25.980 yours, because I don't live your life. JORDAN: Yes you do. You know perfectly well about mine. 00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:27.420 You know about the letter. NICHOLAS: I do know that you have tenure and that that's 00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:29.310 one of the major ways that you're able 00:50:29.310 --> 00:50:32.010 to do this. But I just want people to be 00:50:32.010 --> 00:50:35.130 aware that trans-and gender-diverse 00:50:35.130 --> 00:50:37.680 communities – and especially people of color – 00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:40.230 are being targeted and threatened physically. 00:50:40.230 --> 00:50:42.270 So, free speech is a great 00:50:42.270 --> 00:50:44.550 idea and equality is a great idea, 00:50:44.550 --> 00:50:45.630 but we actually can't have those conversations 00:50:45.630 --> 00:50:47.850 when people are not even able to be present. 00:50:47.850 --> 00:50:49.740 STEVE: Jordan, let me read this tweet to you, 00:50:49.740 --> 00:50:50.670 and I'll get you to respond to 00:50:50.670 --> 00:50:52.710 it because I think it's instructive of 00:50:52.710 --> 00:50:53.940 the conversation that just took place 00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:55.920 between the two of you. 00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:56.700 "Can someone please explain 00:50:56.700 --> 00:50:58.290 to Jordan B Peterson that there's a 00:50:58.290 --> 00:50:59.760 difference between freedom of speech and 00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:02.190 freedom from consequence?" Do you agree 00:51:02.190 --> 00:51:04.080 there's a difference? JORDAN: Well, certainly 00:51:04.080 --> 00:51:05.370 there's a difference. STEVE: And are you 00:51:05.370 --> 00:51:06.930 prepared to suffer the consequences that 00:51:06.930 --> 00:51:08.970 society may deem you need to suffer 00:51:08.970 --> 00:51:12.180 because of your views? 00:51:12.180 --> 00:51:13.230 JORDAN: Yes, I'm prepared to do that. So – 00:51:13.230 --> 00:51:15.150 STEVE: What does that entail? NICHOLAS: Are you open open to learning? 00:51:15.150 --> 00:51:17.130 STEVE: Well, hang on. JORDAN: That's not the question. 00:51:17.130 --> 00:51:18.390 STEVE: Hang on. That that wasn't the question. NICHOLAS: That's true. 00:51:18.390 --> 00:51:21.030 JORDAN: Well, so what am I willing to do? 00:51:21.030 --> 00:51:23.340 Well, I think that the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal 00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:26.130 is probably obligated, 00:51:26.130 --> 00:51:28.740 by their own tangled web, to bring me in 00:51:28.740 --> 00:51:30.840 front of it. If they fine me, I won't pay it. 00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:32.640 If they put me in jail, I'll go on a hunger strike. 00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:36.000 I'm not doing this. 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:38.940 And that's that. I'm not using the words that 00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:40.260 other people require me to use – 00:51:40.260 --> 00:51:43.170 especially if they're made up by radical 00:51:43.170 --> 00:51:44.400 left-wing ideologues. 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:46.680 Now, if our society comes to some sort of 00:51:46.680 --> 00:51:48.540 consensus over the next while about how 00:51:48.540 --> 00:51:50.880 we'll solve the pronoun problem – 00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:53.820 let's call it – and that becomes part of popular parlance, 00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:55.380 and it seems to solve the 00:51:55.380 --> 00:51:57.420 problem properly without sacrificing the 00:51:57.420 --> 00:51:59.100 distinction between singular and plural, 00:51:59.100 --> 00:52:01.590 and without requiring me to memorize 00:52:01.590 --> 00:52:04.080 an impossible list of an indefinite number of pronouns, 00:52:04.080 --> 00:52:05.610 then I would be willing to 00:52:05.610 --> 00:52:08.280 reconsider my position. But I'm also 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:11.460 partly opposed to this because it's been 00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:13.260 made mandatory and has the whole weight 00:52:13.260 --> 00:52:14.850 of the law behind it. It's like this is a 00:52:14.850 --> 00:52:17.100 very bad idea. I believe this is a very 00:52:17.100 --> 00:52:19.290 bad idea. And I believe that the reason 00:52:19.290 --> 00:52:21.330 this has caused so much noise – 00:52:21.330 --> 00:52:22.740 tremendous amount of noise – tremendous amount of 00:52:22.740 --> 00:52:24.540 attention on YouTube – is because there 00:52:24.540 --> 00:52:26.700 are things that are at stake 00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:28.950 in this discussion – despite its surface nature – 00:52:28.950 --> 00:52:31.110 that strike at the very 00:52:31.110 --> 00:52:33.480 heart of our civilization. That's what I believe. 00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:36.690 STEVE: Do you have tenure? JORDAN: I do. 00:52:36.690 --> 00:52:39.180 STEVE: So, they can't fire you for this. JORDAN: Well, it's 00:52:39.180 --> 00:52:40.680 not all that easy to figure out what 00:52:40.680 --> 00:52:43.350 people can and can't do. If I'm – 00:52:43.350 --> 00:52:48.510 Certainly, they could fire me if I was – let's say – 00:52:48.510 --> 00:52:50.550 if the hate-speech allegations, 00:52:50.550 --> 00:52:52.950 so to speak, stuck. I mean, the university – Look. 00:52:52.950 --> 00:52:54.750 The university's been quite reasonable 00:52:54.750 --> 00:52:56.250 about this, especially compared to many universities. 00:52:56.250 --> 00:52:58.140 STEVE: Actually – JORDAN: We're going to have a debate. 00:52:58.140 --> 00:52:59.340 STEVE: I was just going to say – We've got a minute left and 00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:00.540 do want to give it to Jordan JORDAN: Yeah. Okay. 00:53:00.540 --> 00:53:02.720 STEVE: Because the university has not said entirely, 00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:04.980 "Shut up. We don't want to hear this anymore." 00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:06.450 JORDAN: No. But I went and 00:53:06.450 --> 00:53:08.070 talked to the dean on Friday. And I sat 00:53:08.070 --> 00:53:09.690 down with my family and I thought, 00:53:09.690 --> 00:53:11.640 "Okay. What would be the best way for this 00:53:11.640 --> 00:53:14.370 to go for everyone – for me and and for my 00:53:14.370 --> 00:53:15.840 students and for the university and for society?" 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:17.280 I thought, "Okay. Well, really 00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:19.500 obviously, there's an issue here – 00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:21.000 several of them – because otherwise, all of this 00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:22.950 noise wouldn't have emerged. So we should 00:53:22.950 --> 00:53:24.300 actually have a debate about it." STEVE: And that's happening. 00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:25.980 JORDAN: Yes. So I went and 00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:27.840 talked to the Dean, David Cameron, who is 00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:30.750 a very reasonable person and I said, 00:53:30.750 --> 00:53:32.610 "Look, well, I think the University of Toronto 00:53:32.610 --> 00:53:33.990 should take a leadership position on this. 00:53:33.990 --> 00:53:35.850 And there's issues to be discussed here. 00:53:35.850 --> 00:53:38.220 STEVE: So who are you debating? 00:53:38.220 --> 00:53:40.740 JORDAN: Hah! Well, that remains to be seen. 00:53:40.740 --> 00:53:42.480 I haven't seen people flooding out of the woodwork to debate me so far. 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.250 STEVE: You have a date, place, and time yet? 00:53:44.250 --> 00:53:46.110 JORDAN: Um, we don't. It'll be on the campus. 00:53:46.110 --> 00:53:47.820 It'll probably be on a 00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:49.830 morning in the next two weeks. 00:53:49.830 --> 00:53:52.170 STEVE: Okay. You let me know we'll tweet it out there. 00:53:52.170 --> 00:53:54.510 JORDAN: I will let you know. Absolutely. STEVE: Okay. That's our time 00:53:54.510 --> 00:53:56.220 I'm afraid, everybody. I do want to thank 00:53:56.220 --> 00:53:57.720 everybody for coming in tonight. 00:53:57.720 --> 00:53:59.100 And I hope you found it was worth your while. 00:53:59.100 --> 00:54:01.650 We certainly found it, I think, a very useful exercise. 00:54:01.650 --> 00:54:04.530 NICHOLAS: Can I [inaudible] resources for people? STEVE: Sorry? 00:54:04.530 --> 00:54:06.450 NICHOLAS: People who just watched this program may be really 00:54:06.450 --> 00:54:09.060 in need of something. STEVE: Sure. You've got a website? 00:54:09.060 --> 00:54:10.110 I would really encourage people to go to 00:54:10.110 --> 00:54:12.270 transformingjustice.ca. It's a 00:54:12.270 --> 00:54:14.730 current research initiative that will 00:54:14.730 --> 00:54:16.740 appeal to anyone with any interest in 00:54:16.740 --> 00:54:18.090 research and learning. STEVE: Say it again. 00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:20.310 BOTH: transformingjustice.ca. 00:54:20.310 --> 00:54:21.540 STEVE: We are happy to put that out there. 00:54:21.540 --> 00:54:23.610 NICHOLAS: Thank you. STEVE: Theryn Meyer, the trans pundit and 00:54:23.610 --> 00:54:25.350 Youtuber in Vancouver; Kyle Kirkup, 00:54:25.350 --> 00:54:26.850 the professor of law at the University of Ottawa; 00:54:26.850 --> 00:54:28.950 we thank both of you for being outside 00:54:28.950 --> 00:54:30.540 our studio but part of our broadcast tonight. 00:54:30.540 --> 00:54:32.310 Jordan Peterson of the U of T; 00:54:32.310 --> 00:54:35.370 Nick Matte, from the U of T; Mary Rogan, 00:54:35.370 --> 00:54:37.020 you can read more about this in her piece, 00:54:37.020 --> 00:54:38.640 "Growing Up Trans," in the October issue 00:54:38.640 --> 00:54:40.890 of Walrus magazine, on 00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:43.170 better bookstore and corner-store stands 00:54:43.170 --> 00:54:45.739 everywhere. Thanks so much, everybody. 00:54:45.739 --> 00:54:50.549 GUESTS: Thank you. NARRATOR: Help TVO create a better 00:54:50.549 --> 00:54:52.339 world through the power of learning. 00:54:52.339 --> 00:54:59.000 Visit tvo.org and make a tax-deductible donation today.