[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.40,0:00:03.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE PAIKIN: What's in a name? Potentially, a great deal.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:03.44,0:00:06.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University of Toronto psychology
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.02,0:00:08.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professor, Jordan Peterson, has a fight on
Dialogue: 0,0:00:08.12,0:00:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his hands after objecting to proposed
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.22,0:00:12.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislation that he says would violate
Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.26,0:00:14.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his freedom of speech by forcing him to
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.54,0:00:17.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,address transgendered people using the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:17.00,0:00:19.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pronouns of their choosing. Joining us
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.40,0:00:20.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now to better understand the issue and
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.84,0:00:24.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate what's at stake: in Vancouver, British Columbia,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.74,0:00:27.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Theryn Meyer, transgender pundit and
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.11,0:00:29.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,YouTuber. In the nation's capital,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.51,0:00:31.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kyle Kirkup, professor of law at the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.58,0:00:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University of Ottawa. And here in studio,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.04,0:00:35.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the aforementioned Jordan Peterson,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.78,0:00:37.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professor of psychology, University of Toronto.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.85,0:00:40.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nicholas Matte, lecturer,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.10,0:00:42.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transgender studies at U of T.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:42.95,0:00:45.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Mary Rogan, whose article entitled,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.29,0:00:47.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Growing Up Trans" is featured in the October issue
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.54,0:00:50.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Walrus magazine. Good to have you
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.21,0:00:51.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,three here and our two friends in
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.71,0:00:53.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,points beyond. We appreciate everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.12,0:00:55.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being on the program for what is, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.64,0:00:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the hottest topics in the country
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.14,0:00:58.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,today, Professor Peterson – and it's all
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.88,0:01:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of you. And I think before we go
Dialogue: 0,0:01:02.00,0:01:03.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any further with our conversation here,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.95,0:01:06.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to give people a sense of how hot
Dialogue: 0,0:01:06.77,0:01:09.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this has got starting on the downtown
Dialogue: 0,0:01:09.86,0:01:11.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,campus of the University of Toronto.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.45,0:01:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sheldon if you would, roll it.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.35,0:01:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[audience members chanting] JORDAN PETERSON: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.68,0:01:24.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well as you can see, the opponents of
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.51,0:01:26.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free speech are capable of making a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.93,0:01:30.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inarticulate noise. Free speech is the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.24,0:01:32.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mechanism by which we keep our society functioning.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.61,0:01:37.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hear, hear.\NAUDIENCE MEMBER: And by doing this, you're imposing –
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.79,0:01:43.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait!\NNo! No! No! Not cool. Not cool.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.07,0:01:45.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm going to post this online – \NJORDAN: That's fine.\N
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.21,0:01:47.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: – that you would\Nlike people to not – to be more
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.33,0:01:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accommodating of trans people and people\Nof color at your events in the future.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:50.11,0:01:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: I would like there to be no violence.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.51,0:01:56.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am a person of color.\NI am a person of color and I felt very accommodated here.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.16,0:01:58.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: There have been multiple \Nreported instances of trans people
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.47,0:02:04.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,killing themselves because\Nthey are not being integrated into society.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.30,0:02:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: If it wasn't for this law,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.12,0:02:08.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I asked you to refer to me with \Nthey/them pronouns, would you?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:08.53,0:02:10.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why do you have\Nthe authority to determine
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.20,0:02:12.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether or not an individual is worthy
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.69,0:02:15.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of you using their pronouns? Like, if I
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.93,0:02:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asked you, "Would you please use they/them
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.40,0:02:19.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pronouns for me?" what –
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.40,0:02:21.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: It would it would depend on\Nwhat I thought of your motivation.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:21.41,0:02:23.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: What hoops\Ndo you want us to jump through?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.72,0:02:25.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,AUDIENCE MEMBER: Those are my pronouns.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.53,0:02:26.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay, with indulgence
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.52,0:02:27.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of everybody else on the program,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.84,0:02:29.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to start with Professor Peterson off
Dialogue: 0,0:02:29.34,0:02:31.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the top here for a while because, as I
Dialogue: 0,0:02:31.38,0:02:34.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suggested, you thought long and hard
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.05,0:02:37.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this. You posted a few things up to
Dialogue: 0,0:02:37.20,0:02:40.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,YouTube because you had been thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.02,0:02:42.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,long and hard about it. One-and-a-half
Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.57,0:02:45.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,million hits later, Jordan – one and a half
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.66,0:02:48.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,million hits later – this has become a
Dialogue: 0,0:02:48.57,0:02:50.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,huge issue. So let's start there. Why did
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.91,0:02:54.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you post those views to YouTube in the first place?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.06,0:02:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, there's proximate and distal reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:57.18,0:02:58.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The proximate reasons were
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.89,0:03:00.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I received some correspondence
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.72,0:03:04.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from clients of mine who had
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.89,0:03:09.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been, I would say, persecuted in a variety
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.03,0:03:10.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of ways by people who were politically correct.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.86,0:03:13.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they sent me some
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.89,0:03:16.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,documentation about Bill C16 and the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.41,0:03:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,associated policy statements on the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.15,0:03:19.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ontario Human Rights Commission, which I
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.74,0:03:24.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read and was not very happy about.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.20,0:03:26.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also because the University of Toronto
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.76,0:03:28.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decided to make anti-racism and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.71,0:03:30.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anti-bias training – so-called anti-racism and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:30.93,0:03:33.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anti-bias training – mandatory, which I
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.60,0:03:37.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regarded as an inappropriate incursion into the domain of political
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.53,0:03:39.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opinion by the university administration.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:39.15,0:03:41.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Have you taken that training yet? JORDAN: No, and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.70,0:03:43.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't have to yet. It's the HR
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.80,0:03:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,department personnel that have to take it.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:45.60,0:03:47.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: If they decide that you have to, will you?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.28,0:03:49.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: No way. Not a chance.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.62,0:03:50.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. And what's the other – You referred to
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.85,0:03:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,persecution that friends or clients of
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.35,0:03:55.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yours had experienced. Such as?\NJORDAN: Yeah, yeah. Well
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.67,0:03:58.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are lots of places now where the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.41,0:03:59.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,workplace has become, I would say,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.85,0:04:01.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,excessively politicized. And so, people
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.89,0:04:03.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who have viewpoints – And this also
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.78,0:04:06.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involves – includes, I would say, fairly
Dialogue: 0,0:04:06.18,0:04:08.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,radical leftist viewpoints. People don't
Dialogue: 0,0:04:08.49,0:04:11.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feel comfortable at all in being
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.49,0:04:12.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,able to use the language of their choice
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.87,0:04:15.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or to have even opinions about a variety
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.27,0:04:18.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of different things. And so I've had
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.99,0:04:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,three clients who, I would say, have been
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.96,0:04:26.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we'll say "harassed," I suppose, is the right
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.67,0:04:27.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way of putting it.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.45,0:04:29.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: In social media or otherwise?\NJORDAN: No, at work. At work.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.43,0:04:32.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: At work.\NJORDAN: At work by people who
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.10,0:04:34.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't like their political opinions essentially.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.53,0:04:37.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: And the opinions were what?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.82,0:04:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, I can't tell you too much about it,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:39.96,0:04:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually, because of issues –
Dialogue: 0,0:04:42.03,0:04:44.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fundamental issues of confidentiality.\NSTEVE: All right. Give us –
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.48,0:04:46.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Essentially, I guess what I'm asking is
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.32,0:04:48.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to lay the case out. JORDAN: Well, one of –\NSTEVE: What is it
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.51,0:04:50.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you find offensive about this legislation?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:50.45,0:04:51.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, fundamentally, there
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.60,0:04:53.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were two things that really bothered me,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:53.07,0:04:54.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,although there have been other things
Dialogue: 0,0:04:54.24,0:04:56.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've thought about since. One was that I
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.34,0:04:59.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was being asked, as everyone is, to use a
Dialogue: 0,0:04:59.25,0:05:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certain set of words that I think are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.02,0:05:02.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the constructions of people who have a
Dialogue: 0,0:05:02.49,0:05:04.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political ideology that I don't believe
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.17,0:05:06.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in and that I also regard as dangerous.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:06.29,0:05:08.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: What are those words?\NJORDAN: Those are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.32,0:05:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the made-up words that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.93,0:05:13.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people now describe as gender-neutral.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.20,0:05:16.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, to me, they're
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.65,0:05:18.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an attempt to control language
Dialogue: 0,0:05:18.93,0:05:22.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in a direction that isn't happening organically,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.32,0:05:23.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not happening naturally,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:23.73,0:05:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people aren't picking up these words in
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.77,0:05:27.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the typical way that new words are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:27.24,0:05:29.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,picked up, but by force and by fiat.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.48,0:05:31.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I would say by force because there's
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.11,0:05:33.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislative power behind them.\NSTEVE: So just so we're [clear] –
Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.81,0:05:36.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: And I don't like these made-up words\N– ze, and zer and that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.27,0:05:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of thing.\NSTEVE: Okay. What about the – They're not
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.04,0:05:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all made up – quote-unquote made-up words.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.00,0:05:41.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yeah.\NSTEVE: For example, "they" is one of them –
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.82,0:05:43.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to speak to an individual as they.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.38,0:05:45.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes, right. But we can't dispense with
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.21,0:05:46.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the distinction between singular and plural.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.80,0:05:48.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I know that the advocates of that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.90,0:05:50.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particular approach say that "they" has
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.55,0:05:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been used forever as a singular, and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.35,0:05:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's actually not correct. It's used as
Dialogue: 0,0:05:54.51,0:05:55.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a singular in very exceptional
Dialogue: 0,0:05:55.92,0:05:58.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,circumstances. Like, "If your child wishes
Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.41,0:06:00.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to bring a book to school, they're
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.21,0:06:02.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,welcome to do so." But "they" –\NSTEVE: That's just
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.61,0:06:05.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,grammatically incorrect.\NJORDAN: Well, it is also. There's some
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.73,0:06:07.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate about that because it is – "they" is
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.50,0:06:09.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,used like that sometimes. But it's never
Dialogue: 0,0:06:09.75,0:06:11.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been used as a singular replacement
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.79,0:06:14.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for he or she. STEVE: All right.\NJORDAN: And so it's not a
Dialogue: 0,0:06:14.19,0:06:16.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tenable solution. And that's the best of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:16.44,0:06:18.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the solutions.\NSTEVE: So, we understand your
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.00,0:06:19.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,views and where you're coming from.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.71,0:06:22.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You've decided to lay these views out in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:22.44,0:06:26.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some YouTube discourses. JORDAN: Yes.\NSTEVE: You put them up.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.01,0:06:27.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The response has been overwhelming.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:27.42,0:06:29.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes.\NSTEVE: Did you anticipate that you would get
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.61,0:06:31.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this kind of feedback?\NJORDAN: No, there was no
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.38,0:06:33.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way of anticipating this. And I think – You
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.33,0:06:34.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned in the intro that
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.68,0:06:36.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a consequence of what I've done.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.42,0:06:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don't think that's true. It's a
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.64,0:06:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consequence of the fact – I thought
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.95,0:06:42.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about it, and I think the right metaphor
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.27,0:06:44.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that there's a large forest,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.97,0:06:47.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's been a hot, dry summer, or maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.67,0:06:49.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a drought, and there's plenty of dead
Dialogue: 0,0:06:49.65,0:06:52.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wood gathered, and I lit a spark. And you
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.05,0:06:54.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can't blame the forest fire on the spark.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.18,0:06:57.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's just not possible for
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.57,0:06:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone to put up a YouTube video and
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.34,0:07:02.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cause this kind of brouhaha without all
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.04,0:07:03.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the groundwork already being laid.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.48,0:07:05.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Fair enough. There is clearly –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.25,0:07:08.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is out there an appetite
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.10,0:07:10.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against political correctness, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.20,0:07:11.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what you have described this as. In fact,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.70,0:07:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your YouTube video is called
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.56,0:07:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Professor Against Political Correctness."\NJORDAN: Mm-hmm. STEVE: But let's
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.48,0:07:16.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make sure we're all speaking the same
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.62,0:07:19.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language here. You would define that how?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.01,0:07:21.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Political correctness?\NJORDAN: Well, I think it's
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.72,0:07:23.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a particular kind of ideological game. And I
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.91,0:07:25.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think the outcome is twofold.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.86,0:07:27.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's to make the player feel morally superior,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.54,0:07:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also to take rather serious ax swings
Dialogue: 0,0:07:31.68,0:07:34.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the foundation of society.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.17,0:07:36.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, the game is identify a domain of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.84,0:07:39.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,human endeavor, note that there's a
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.42,0:07:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,distribution of success – some people are
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.76,0:07:43.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing comparatively better and some
Dialogue: 0,0:07:43.14,0:07:44.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are doing comparatively worse –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.66,0:07:47.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,define those doing worse as victims,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.39,0:07:49.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,define those doing better as
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.38,0:07:52.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perpetrators, identify with the victims,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:52.14,0:07:55.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have yourself a set of enemies handy to
Dialogue: 0,0:07:55.26,0:07:57.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,vent your resentment on, feel good about
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.60,0:07:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it even though it didn't really require
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.10,0:08:02.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any work on your part, and then endlessly repeat.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.64,0:08:04.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's why – I've seen that happening
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.05,0:08:05.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on campuses, in particular, for the last 30 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:05.94,0:08:08.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: In your YouTube talk, you
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.19,0:08:10.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,describe those who oppose you on this
Dialogue: 0,0:08:10.74,0:08:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issue as "resentful and uninformed."
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.26,0:08:14.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes.\NSTEVE: Tell me why you think that's accurate.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:14.70,0:08:18.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, I worked for the NDP when
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.03,0:08:19.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was a kid –\NSTEVE: Okay. JORDAN: From the time I
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.80,0:08:21.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was 14 to the time I was 18.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.69,0:08:23.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I worked with Rachel Notley's father and her mother,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:23.64,0:08:26.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and knew them very well. And I
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.55,0:08:28.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually found them very admirable
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.26,0:08:29.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people, as well as the other people
Dialogue: 0,0:08:29.97,0:08:31.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the socialist end of the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.50,0:08:33.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,distribution who were genuinely working
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.00,0:08:35.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the rights of working-class
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.16,0:08:37.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people – coming out of that Saskatchewan
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.17,0:08:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tradition that established health care
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.64,0:08:40.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pension and all of that. But I noted,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.74,0:08:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the same time, that the party
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.03,0:08:44.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,functionaries, let's say, weren't that
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.37,0:08:45.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of person at all. They didn't really
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.81,0:08:47.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the working class. They weren't
Dialogue: 0,0:08:47.25,0:08:48.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,standing up for them. And I couldn't
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.39,0:08:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quite put my finger on it until I read
Dialogue: 0,0:08:50.52,0:08:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier,"
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.41,0:08:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a brilliant book and which was
Dialogue: 0,0:08:54.54,0:08:56.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,written for the Left Book Club in the UK.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:56.70,0:08:59.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he was talking about the failures of
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.01,0:09:01.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,socialism in the United Kingdom,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.17,0:09:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then discussed intellectual
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.82,0:09:05.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,socialists of the type who didn't
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.01,0:09:08.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exactly like the poor – STEVE: Okay.\NJORDAN: They just hated the rich.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.01,0:09:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: "Resentful and uninformed," though?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.04,0:09:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes. Well, the resentful part is the
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.56,0:09:16.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,willingness to pull down any structure
Dialogue: 0,0:09:16.38,0:09:18.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's hierarchical because of
Dialogue: 0,0:09:18.57,0:09:20.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,resentment about not being on the top.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:20.55,0:09:24.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And uninformed is, well, it's the
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.14,0:09:26.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consistent attempt to force every
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.28,0:09:29.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political issue into a single –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:29.46,0:09:31.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into the domain encompassed and viewed
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.26,0:09:33.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through this single lens.\NSTEVE: Jordan, let's do
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.48,0:09:34.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one more question here, and then we'll
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.59,0:09:36.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get everybody else into the conversation.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:36.06,0:09:38.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, of course, that since this story broke,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.25,0:09:40.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you've been called a lot of things –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.05,0:09:43.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yep. STEVE: – one of which is a "transphobe."\NJORDAN: Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:43.77,0:09:47.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Some people have accused you of using
Dialogue: 0,0:09:47.31,0:09:49.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the free-speech issue to mask what's
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.08,0:09:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really going on here, which is an attempt
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.88,0:09:53.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to deprive other people of what they
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.10,0:09:55.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,believe are their legitimate rights.\NJORDAN: Well, I can –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.50,0:09:56.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: And I want to give you the opportunity to speak
Dialogue: 0,0:09:56.85,0:09:58.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to whether or not you are a transphobe.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.35,0:10:00.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that
Dialogue: 0,0:10:00.00,0:10:01.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've received more letters from
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.17,0:10:03.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transsexual people supporting me than
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.30,0:10:05.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opposing me. And I never said anything,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.70,0:10:07.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really, about transsexual people,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.68,0:10:09.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about their existence, although that was the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:09.09,0:10:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first thing that I was accused of doing.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.68,0:10:13.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't say that transsexual people
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.11,0:10:16.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't exist. I said that gender identity, gender expression,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:16.41,0:10:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and biological sex do not vary
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.39,0:10:21.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,independently, which they don't. And so,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:21.27,0:10:23.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this issue is, in some sense,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.61,0:10:26.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only peripherally about about transsexual issues.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:26.16,0:10:28.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's more essentially about
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.56,0:10:31.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender issues. And, then on top of that –
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.35,0:10:33.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think it's the biggest issue –
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.18,0:10:35.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that it's a free speech issue. So –\NSTEVE: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.67,0:10:38.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let us continue to explore all of those
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.13,0:10:41.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues that you have just raised and –
Dialogue: 0,0:10:41.37,0:10:42.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why don't we do this? Let's take a moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.51,0:10:43.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're gonna explain a few basic things here.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:43.86,0:10:45.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The issue of so-called
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.75,0:10:47.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-traditional pronouns goes together
Dialogue: 0,0:10:47.25,0:10:49.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with non-traditional gender identities.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:49.17,0:10:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,New York City, for example, recognizes 31
Dialogue: 0,0:10:52.56,0:10:54.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such gender expressions. In other words,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.99,0:10:57.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,besides "man" and "woman," there are 29 other
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.59,0:11:00.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender expressions. For example, "pangender,"
Dialogue: 0,0:11:00.54,0:11:03.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"queer gender," "gender fluid," "crossdresser,"
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.18,0:11:05.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"bi-gendered," "gender blender," and the list goes on.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:05.73,0:11:07.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Nicholas, this is where I
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.53,0:11:08.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to bring you into the discussion
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.37,0:11:11.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you teach this. You teach trans studies.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.13,0:11:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, if you would, give us a brief
Dialogue: 0,0:11:13.44,0:11:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,primer on so many gender identities that,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.04,0:11:20.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in your view, require non-traditional pronouns.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.04,0:11:24.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS MATTE: Basically, it's not correct that
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.69,0:11:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is such a thing as biological sex.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:26.46,0:11:28.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm a historian of medicine.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.35,0:11:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can unpack that for you at great length if
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.51,0:11:32.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you want. But in the interest of time,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.28,0:11:34.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I won't. So that's a very popular misconception.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:34.53,0:11:36.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, essentially, in my
Dialogue: 0,0:11:36.75,0:11:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transgender studies classes, what we're
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.64,0:11:40.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing is looking at actual research and
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.50,0:11:43.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identifying ways that current social
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.44,0:11:45.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues related to trans people or things
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.75,0:11:47.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are associated with trans, such as
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.55,0:11:50.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free-speech arguments and claims,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.37,0:11:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how that connects to the way that people are thinking,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.35,0:11:54.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way that research has been
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.01,0:11:55.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,framed, the histories have been framed.\NSTEVE: Give us some of
Dialogue: 0,0:11:55.74,0:11:57.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the other pronouns that one would hear – typically.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.27,0:11:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: I don't focus on pronouns
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.34,0:12:00.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because pronouns are actually part of
Dialogue: 0,0:12:00.99,0:12:03.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a cisnormative culture. So what we do is learn about –
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.30,0:12:04.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I'm gonna stop you right there.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.86,0:12:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Yes, I was just about to explain.\NSTEVE: Good.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:06.66,0:12:07.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: So, we don't start from a cisnormative
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.98,0:12:09.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perspective because that can't actually
Dialogue: 0,0:12:09.75,0:12:11.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go very far. STEVE: What does cisnormative mean?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.88,0:12:13.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: So, I'm gonna start us there.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.59,0:12:17.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cisnormative is basically the very popular idea and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:17.64,0:12:19.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,assumption that most people probably have –
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.38,0:12:21.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and definitely that our structures convey –
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.39,0:12:23.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is such a thing as
Dialogue: 0,0:12:23.46,0:12:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,male and female, that they connect to
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.44,0:12:28.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being a girl or a boy or a man or a woman,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.11,0:12:30.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then sometimes that will also
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.27,0:12:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recognize intersex or trans people or
Dialogue: 0,0:12:32.16,0:12:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transsexual people, as you mentioned,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.72,0:12:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because that's – It's sometimes also referred
Dialogue: 0,0:12:37.68,0:12:39.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to as a gender binary. So, anything that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:39.48,0:12:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fits within a gender binary can work
Dialogue: 0,0:12:42.24,0:12:44.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,within cisnormativity.\NSTEVE: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.37,0:12:46.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: But cisnormativity is basically that everyone
Dialogue: 0,0:12:46.16,0:12:48.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,assumes that there is male and female,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.57,0:12:51.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so very little is actually looked at
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.06,0:12:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to understand what's actually the case.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:53.54,0:12:56.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And scientists have been doing\Nthis for at least over 50 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.15,0:12:59.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Because your view would be\Nit's much more complicated than that.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.24,0:13:00.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Right. It's not my view,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:00.72,0:13:02.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just know that, for over 50 years,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.04,0:13:03.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scientists have shown that that's not true.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:03.60,0:13:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, our social systems haven't
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.88,0:13:08.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been able to find a way to address
Dialogue: 0,0:13:08.41,0:13:10.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the level of complexity that people actually experience.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.85,0:13:12.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: At what point can I step in, Steve?\N
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.73,0:13:13.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Stand by for a second –\NJORDAN: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.89,0:13:16.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: – because I want to let everybody else\Nget in first, and then we'll get you in.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.59,0:13:18.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: And I didn't interrupt you either, so –\N
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.01,0:13:19.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Mary, how prevalent \Nis transgenderism in our world?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:19.81,0:13:22.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY ROGAN: I don't think I can –
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.11,0:13:23.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think I can answer that question.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.55,0:13:26.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that I would agree with Nicolas that
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.61,0:13:29.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is some discrepancy on these
Dialogue: 0,0:13:29.01,0:13:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,numbers and there is some variance on
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.48,0:13:36.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the numbers. I guess I'm curious
Dialogue: 0,0:13:36.06,0:13:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as to why we need need to put a
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.76,0:13:41.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,number on this. Because that's come up.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.19,0:13:47.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I listened to Jordan's video,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.01,0:13:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that was something that was mentioned.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.20,0:13:51.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is, statistically –
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.51,0:13:53.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are so few intersex people as to be –
Dialogue: 0,0:13:53.46,0:13:55.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's insignificant.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.39,0:13:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Well, I think there's \Na reasonable curiosity
Dialogue: 0,0:13:57.50,0:13:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as to whether or not \Nwe're talking about half the population
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.63,0:14:02.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or less than 1% of the population. That's all.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:02.22,0:14:04.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: No, I understand that. I guess what I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.14,0:14:07.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying is it seems that there's a focus
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.11,0:14:10.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on that in terms of what we know now.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.20,0:14:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think what Nicholas is trying to try
Dialogue: 0,0:14:12.06,0:14:13.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to say – and I don't want to
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.17,0:14:16.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presume too much – I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.50,0:14:18.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that number is going to be something that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.18,0:14:20.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,evolves as we evolve and our language
Dialogue: 0,0:14:20.31,0:14:22.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,evolves and we give people the room to
Dialogue: 0,0:14:22.02,0:14:23.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come forward and express who they are.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.28,0:14:25.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. Let me – As part of that expression
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.23,0:14:28.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and evolution of this issue, the use of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.17,0:14:31.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-traditional pronouns, where are you on that?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.01,0:14:33.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I think\Npeople should be able to
Dialogue: 0,0:14:33.36,0:14:35.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say how they want to be addressed.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.88,0:14:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I do believe that. In my own experience in
Dialogue: 0,0:14:38.64,0:14:40.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writing the Walrus piece,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.20,0:14:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I began at one place and ended at another.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:43.17,0:14:45.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'll let everyone pay their $7 to find out how.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.56,0:14:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: [chuckles]\NMARY: They can buy the magazine.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:47.12,0:14:48.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think that, for me,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.96,0:14:52.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identifying as male at a very late
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.44,0:14:54.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stage in my life, I don't have –
Dialogue: 0,0:14:54.99,0:14:58.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't have a lot of attachment to the pronoun "she."
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.35,0:14:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You could have said "giraffe."
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.84,0:15:02.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had found a way at a very early age not to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.25,0:15:06.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even hear that word. It meant nothing to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.11,0:15:08.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I didn't dive into the pronoun "he."
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.27,0:15:10.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: So, if I were going to refer to you,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.38,0:15:12.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,though, in the third person – MARY: "They."\NSTEVE: – you would want me to call you "they."
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.93,0:15:16.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: Yes.\NSTEVE: Okay. Because that encapsulates what?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.03,0:15:19.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I think it reflects where I am right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.40,0:15:21.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because of my lived experience –
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.08,0:15:24.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,five decades as being identified –
Dialogue: 0,0:15:24.27,0:15:26.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly by the world – as female –
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.30,0:15:28.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the time, not all
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.45,0:15:29.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the time – my lived experience was
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.84,0:15:33.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,largely female, and I personally am not
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.83,0:15:37.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of ready to jump in wholly into
Dialogue: 0,0:15:37.23,0:15:39.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having people call me "he."
Dialogue: 0,0:15:39.45,0:15:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I'm certainly far enough along
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.24,0:15:44.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of how I feel internally
Dialogue: 0,0:15:44.25,0:15:45.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I don't want to be called "she."
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.89,0:15:48.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Understood. Let's go to British Columbia.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.36,0:15:50.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Theryn, I want you to help us understand
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.54,0:15:53.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for our viewers who don't know you
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.58,0:15:55.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and don't know your work,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:55.35,0:15:59.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would like you to describe yourself.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.17,0:16:02.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: Well, I make political commentary –
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.44,0:16:05.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mostly on YouTube.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:05.40,0:16:10.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I mostly focus on basically countering –
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.47,0:16:13.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with my own personal perspectives –
Dialogue: 0,0:16:13.68,0:16:17.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countering what I consider to be
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.46,0:16:20.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the kind of hegemony surrounding –
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.97,0:16:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the political hegemony – surrounding trans politics,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:24.30,0:16:27.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what I consider to be
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.29,0:16:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quite ridiculous opinions and demands
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.08,0:16:36.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming from what has come to be known as
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.36,0:16:39.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of the political trans lobbying.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.69,0:16:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I'm not as good at this issue
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.46,0:16:42.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I should be, so I'm going to look to you
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.96,0:16:46.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to help me use the right words here
Dialogue: 0,0:16:46.61,0:16:48.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to describe how you were born
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.83,0:16:51.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what you see yourself as now.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.74,0:16:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So is it accurate to say you're a trans woman?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.57,0:16:59.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: Yes I'm, I'm – Oh [frustration].
Dialogue: 0,0:16:59.33,0:17:00.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wish I would have lived in a world
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.66,0:17:01.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where that was just obvious
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.96,0:17:02.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I don't have to explain that to people.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.96,0:17:04.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, apparently, I do.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.94,0:17:08.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, "Yes, I'm just a woman."
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.04,0:17:09.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Is this to say
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.54,0:17:13.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you were born male but now are female?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.03,0:17:16.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: Yes. I transitioned\Nfrom male to female. And, yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.37,0:17:19.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: In which case, do I refer to you –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:19.67,0:17:21.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm gonna ask you the same question
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.56,0:17:23.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I asked Mary, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:17:23.17,0:17:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do I refer to you as her or she now?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.56,0:17:25.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: Yes, you do.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.57,0:17:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I do. Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.57,0:17:29.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how do you relate to the experiences
Dialogue: 0,0:17:29.73,0:17:31.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have heard arise during this
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.98,0:17:34.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate where gender identities and
Dialogue: 0,0:17:34.89,0:17:39.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pronouns are up for grabs, if you like?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:42.13,0:17:47.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am very skeptical of the ideology
Dialogue: 0,0:17:47.30,0:17:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surrounding gender identity.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.08,0:17:51.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't believe there are
Dialogue: 0,0:17:51.51,0:17:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,29-plus gender identities or genders.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:56.00,0:17:57.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I believe there's male and female and
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.48,0:17:58.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then there's somewhere in between and
Dialogue: 0,0:17:58.77,0:18:03.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most people fall along that. And just people
Dialogue: 0,0:18:03.15,0:18:05.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are in-between does not constitute a new gender.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.80,0:18:07.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are two genders – period.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.99,0:18:12.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is, biologically, a sound argument to make.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.41,0:18:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just because the argument that was made
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.63,0:18:18.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier in the show is that –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:18.75,0:18:20.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It wasn't an argument, but a claim –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:20.63,0:18:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is no such thing as biological sex.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.52,0:18:25.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, that's simply not true.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.75,0:18:26.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is true that there are
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.91,0:18:29.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,multiple characteristics and there are
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.61,0:18:32.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,multiple factors that go into determining sex,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.88,0:18:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that sex is not on-off switch –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:35.12,0:18:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is a spectrum to it,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.88,0:18:39.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just like with most things in nature.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.92,0:18:41.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most things aren't an on-off switch.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.61,0:18:44.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most things develop on a spectrum.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.73,0:18:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But for the most part,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.88,0:18:50.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the vast majority of people fall
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.58,0:18:54.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either on the male side or on the female side.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.21,0:18:56.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yes, it's true that scientists –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.28,0:18:59.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that doctors have – and researchers – have been
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.46,0:19:01.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,finding more and more factors that go into,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.11,0:19:04.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not only determining genetic sex,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.35,0:19:08.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but determining the expression of those genes.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.66,0:19:14.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's truly a fascinating, complex field of study.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:14.90,0:19:16.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that does not mean that there is
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.30,0:19:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no such thing as biological sex.\NSTEVE: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:19.60,0:19:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: When it comes to the issue of pronouns,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:22.52,0:19:24.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would you like me to give you my opinion on it?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.93,0:19:26.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Yeah, briefly if you would because
Dialogue: 0,0:19:26.55,0:19:28.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kyle has been the most patient person in
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.00,0:19:29.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the world waiting for his chance to get in.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.80,0:19:31.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, yes, you finish your statement and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:31.42,0:19:33.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then I'm gonna get to Kyle.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:33.50,0:19:35.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: Okay. My apologies.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:35.02,0:19:36.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, firstly, I have a lot of sympathy
Dialogue: 0,0:19:36.73,0:19:39.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for people who want to be referred to
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.25,0:19:41.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by their pronouns. Obviously, as a trans woman,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:41.89,0:19:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know what it feels like to be
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.04,0:19:48.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,misgendered and whatnot.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.91,0:19:50.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And most people are reasonable in the sense that
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.83,0:19:52.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they would be reasonable enough
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.60,0:19:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to accommodate trans people and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.57,0:20:00.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their preferred pronouns.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.10,0:20:02.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm sure – I mean, I would hope that
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.10,0:20:04.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if I were a student of Dr. Peterson,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:04.49,0:20:06.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that he would refer to me as "she"
Dialogue: 0,0:20:06.73,0:20:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and wouldn't have a problem with that.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:09.04,0:20:10.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But at the end of the day,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.81,0:20:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our personal-pronoun preference, it still is a preference
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.72,0:20:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for what language other people use.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:16.63,0:20:18.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And at the end of the day, I don't have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.91,0:20:22.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ultimate control over what Dr. Peterson –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.16,0:20:24.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the language he chooses to use or
Dialogue: 0,0:20:24.03,0:20:24.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anybody else for that matter.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:24.94,0:20:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's up to them. And the problem arises –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:27.22,0:20:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. Let me find out then.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.70,0:20:31.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me find out. If she were \Na student of yours, what would you call her?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.77,0:20:33.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: "She."\NSTEVE: You would. Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.57,0:20:36.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've established that. Theryn, stand by
Dialogue: 0,0:20:36.49,0:20:39.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a second now. I do want – [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:20:39.22,0:20:41.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you for your patience, Professor Kirkup.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.23,0:20:43.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I want to bring you in now because,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:43.96,0:20:45.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I suggested earlier, in New York City,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:45.70,0:20:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have identified 31 gender identities.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:48.59,0:20:50.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And apparently the law down
Dialogue: 0,0:20:50.26,0:20:51.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there suggests that if businesses don't
Dialogue: 0,0:20:51.88,0:20:54.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accommodate an individual's chosen
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.10,0:20:56.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender identity, there is the risk of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:56.05,0:20:59.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a six-figure fine under the rules
Dialogue: 0,0:20:59.08,0:21:01.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the city's Commissioner of Human Rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.54,0:21:03.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have, in the province of Ontario
Dialogue: 0,0:21:03.16,0:21:06.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our own Ontario Human Rights Commission,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:06.04,0:21:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I wonder how similar our
Dialogue: 0,0:21:07.64,0:21:10.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislation is here on this issue
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.34,0:21:13.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compared to what they have in New York City.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:13.73,0:21:15.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: So, where I would start the discussion
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.54,0:21:17.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is to actually point out that
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.49,0:21:19.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though we're talking about adding
Dialogue: 0,0:21:19.39,0:21:21.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender identity and gender expression to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.49,0:21:23.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Canadian Human Rights Act and
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.59,0:21:25.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provisions of the Criminal Code
Dialogue: 0,0:21:25.57,0:21:27.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a long-standing practice in Canadian
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.28,0:21:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,human-rights jurisprudence. You can go
Dialogue: 0,0:21:28.99,0:21:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,back into the late 1990s. And the cases
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.20,0:21:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we're seeing in the tribunals are
Dialogue: 0,0:21:33.64,0:21:37.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the kind of extreme examples of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:37.45,0:21:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a number of different kinds of gender pronouns.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.89,0:21:40.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What we're seeing is really
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.96,0:21:43.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more basic human rights questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:43.24,0:21:45.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, questions like are you required
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.91,0:21:47.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to undergo surgery in order to have
Dialogue: 0,0:21:47.80,0:21:51.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an identity document that properly captures
Dialogue: 0,0:21:51.64,0:21:52.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who you are as a person?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:52.90,0:21:55.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Discrimination in policing contexts,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:55.74,0:21:57.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discrimination in the workplace.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.64,0:21:59.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, I think the pronoun issue
Dialogue: 0,0:21:59.61,0:22:00.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is really a red herring.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:00.97,0:22:03.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you look through the jurisprudence
Dialogue: 0,0:22:03.27,0:22:04.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dating back to the 1990s,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:04.86,0:22:07.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're seeing much more fundamental questions –
Dialogue: 0,0:22:07.93,0:22:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really basic human rights questions –
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.76,0:22:11.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are coming before the tribunals.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.47,0:22:15.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And having reviewed the case law,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.15,0:22:17.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not seeing the kind of New York scenario
Dialogue: 0,0:22:17.67,0:22:19.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you're proposing at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:19.47,0:22:20.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Well, let me read some of
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.76,0:22:22.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Ontario Human Rights Code to you
Dialogue: 0,0:22:22.06,0:22:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then I'll get your feedback on that.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:24.49,0:22:26.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Discrimination," the Human Rights Code
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.39,0:22:28.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,says, "happens when a person experiences
Dialogue: 0,0:22:28.78,0:22:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,negative treatment or impact, intentional or not,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:31.55,0:22:33.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of their gender identity
Dialogue: 0,0:22:33.36,0:22:35.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or gender expression. It can be direct
Dialogue: 0,0:22:35.56,0:22:37.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and obvious or subtle and hidden,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.96,0:22:40.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but harmful just the same. It can also happen
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.30,0:22:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a bigger systemic level such as
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.37,0:22:44.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,organizational rules or policies that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:44.62,0:22:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,look neutral but end up excluding trans people. ...
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.04,0:22:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Organizations are liable for any
Dialogue: 0,0:22:49.84,0:22:52.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discrimination and harassment that happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.22,0:22:53.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are also liable for not
Dialogue: 0,0:22:53.68,0:22:56.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accommodating a trans person's needs
Dialogue: 0,0:22:56.11,0:22:59.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unless it would cause undue hardship."
Dialogue: 0,0:22:59.25,0:23:01.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again, Kyle, I'll get you to follow up on
Dialogue: 0,0:23:01.42,0:23:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that inasmuch as if a trans person or
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.20,0:23:07.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somebody whose gender identity was more,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:07.98,0:23:09.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shall we say, complicated than the male/female
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.46,0:23:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we've been talking about so far,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:11.65,0:23:14.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the pronoun used to describe
Dialogue: 0,0:23:14.38,0:23:17.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that person were not traditional,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.50,0:23:19.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would the person have a case
Dialogue: 0,0:23:19.38,0:23:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before the Human Rights Commission?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.96,0:23:22.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: So, we haven't seen
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.21,0:23:23.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cases on that at this point. But I would
Dialogue: 0,0:23:23.95,0:23:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say absolutely as a rule of –
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.90,0:23:27.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a general rule that you should be thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:23:27.49,0:23:29.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about in terms of employment settings,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.49,0:23:32.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,absolutely, respecting trans persons'
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.29,0:23:35.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pronoun choice is really fundamental.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.75,0:23:38.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I can also say that in lots of circumstances,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:38.38,0:23:40.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a pronoun may not even be required.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:40.72,0:23:44.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are lots of creative ways to avoid using
Dialogue: 0,0:23:44.02,0:23:47.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender pronouns at all. And so, I think that –
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.65,0:23:49.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But when you actually look at
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.03,0:23:50.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the cases that are coming before tribunals,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:50.38,0:23:52.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're not seeing that to be, really,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:52.96,0:23:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the primary issue. It's much more
Dialogue: 0,0:23:55.52,0:23:57.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basic human rights questions,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:57.49,0:24:00.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is what the federal legislation here,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:00.01,0:24:01.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bill C16, tries to accomplish.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:01.98,0:24:04.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: All right. I think we've set the table now.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.36,0:24:06.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You want to get in on this now, I can tell.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:06.55,0:24:08.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You've heard what the professor has to say.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:08.05,0:24:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's your response?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:10.21,0:24:11.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, I don't understand
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.46,0:24:12.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the claim that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.53,0:24:14.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's no such thing as biological sex means.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:14.41,0:24:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I certainly think it's – let's call it
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.47,0:24:19.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an error – to suggest that there's some
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.99,0:24:23.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of scientific consensus about that.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.00,0:24:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, there's biological differences
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.40,0:24:27.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between males and females
Dialogue: 0,0:24:27.49,0:24:29.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in animals and human beings
Dialogue: 0,0:24:29.50,0:24:31.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at every level of analysis from the –
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.09,0:24:32.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. I'm jumping in here.\NJORDAN: Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.28,0:24:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Because what about the notion
Dialogue: 0,0:24:33.76,0:24:34.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he put forward at the end there
Dialogue: 0,0:24:34.45,0:24:35.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that if you do not refer to people
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.80,0:24:38.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the pronoun that they prefer to be
Dialogue: 0,0:24:38.20,0:24:40.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,referred to, that is a form, according to
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.57,0:24:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Human Rights Commission, of discrimination?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.59,0:24:43.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: It's not just a form of discrimination,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.42,0:24:45.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a form of hate speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:45.69,0:24:47.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why I made the video.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.50,0:24:51.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I said that we were in danger of placing
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.17,0:24:53.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the refusal to use certain kinds of language
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.08,0:24:56.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into the same category as Holocaust denial,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.21,0:24:58.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and suggested that maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.07,0:24:59.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that wasn't such a good idea –
Dialogue: 0,0:24:59.30,0:25:01.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially since there's plenty of debate
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.20,0:25:03.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be had about gender issues in our society,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.38,0:25:04.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I also think are also
Dialogue: 0,0:25:04.78,0:25:08.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in danger of becoming illegal, and quite rapidly.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.17,0:25:10.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it isn't clear to me how long
Dialogue: 0,0:25:10.18,0:25:11.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we'll be able to have the talk
Dialogue: 0,0:25:11.35,0:25:13.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we're having right now.\NSTEVE: Here are some –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.96,0:25:16.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: Can I jump in there –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.01,0:25:17.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can I jump in there on – \NSTEVE: Please.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.41,0:25:19.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: I think it's a common misconception
Dialogue: 0,0:25:19.14,0:25:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about Bill C16 that it's somehow going
Dialogue: 0,0:25:21.46,0:25:25.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make pronoun use into hate speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:25.24,0:25:26.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you actually look at the provisions,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:26.56,0:25:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're talking about very minor amendments
Dialogue: 0,0:25:28.72,0:25:29.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the criminal code.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:29.80,0:25:31.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For example, Section –\NJORDAN: They're not minor.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:31.64,0:25:34.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They put it into the hate-speech category.\NThey're not minor at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.15,0:25:37.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's a misstatement.\NTHERYN: I actually agree with you on that point.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.13,0:25:39.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: So don't tell me they're minor.\NTHERYN: I think there's a lot of opportunity here –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.99,0:25:42.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: That's not – that's not right.\NTHERYN: There's a lot of opportunity opening.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.55,0:25:44.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: So Section –\NSTEVE: Kyle, go ahead.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.80,0:25:46.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: So, Section 318 – Pardon me.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:46.42,0:25:48.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, Section 318 sets out \Na series of identifiable groups,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.91,0:25:51.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're talking about the clearest of cases –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.35,0:25:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the cases of advocating genocide.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.40,0:25:55.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we have a series of groups
Dialogue: 0,0:25:55.84,0:25:57.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are already identified in the code.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.64,0:25:59.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And all this does is add gender identity and
Dialogue: 0,0:25:59.50,0:26:01.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender expression to the categories
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.81,0:26:03.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are already identified. And so, I think we
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.94,0:26:06.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really have to add some reasonableness
Dialogue: 0,0:26:06.22,0:26:08.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to this discussion, actually clearly
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.23,0:26:10.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,articulate what the provision does.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:10.57,0:26:12.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Well, let me be a little clearer about what
Dialogue: 0,0:26:12.07,0:26:15.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the problems – what you might be
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.67,0:26:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asking for if you want to do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.23,0:26:19.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For example, and Sheldon, bottom of Page 3 here,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.93,0:26:21.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's put this graphic up.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.79,0:26:24.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"[P]ronoun misuse may become actionable
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.13,0:26:25.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through the Human Rights Tribunals and the courts.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.72,0:26:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the remedies? Monetary damages,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:27.64,0:26:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-financial remedies, (for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.56,0:26:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ceasing the discriminatory practice or
Dialogue: 0,0:26:31.27,0:26:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reinstatement to the job), and public interest
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.52,0:26:35.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remedies (for example, changing
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.59,0:26:37.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hiring practices or developing
Dialogue: 0,0:26:37.06,0:26:38.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-discriminatory policies and procedures).
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.77,0:26:41.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jail time is not one of them."
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.34,0:26:43.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jordan, you're not going to go to jail if
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.18,0:26:44.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you keep this up. Do you find that reassuring?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:44.65,0:26:48.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: What if I don't pay the fine?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:48.49,0:26:50.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Then what?\NJORDAN: Then what? And let's talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:26:50.62,0:26:52.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legalities for a minute. As you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.96,0:26:54.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the University of Toronto sent me
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.46,0:26:57.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two warning letters – right? – and the second one
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.28,0:26:58.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically asked me to stop talking about this.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.87,0:27:01.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Who sent the letters?\NJORDAN: The first –
Dialogue: 0,0:27:01.63,0:27:03.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's the administration, fundamentally,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:03.46,0:27:04.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the higher up people in the administration.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:04.99,0:27:07.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The last one was the Dean of the Faculty
Dialogue: 0,0:27:07.30,0:27:10.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Arts and Science.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.03,0:27:11.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's coming from
Dialogue: 0,0:27:11.71,0:27:12.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the top end of the university.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.79,0:27:13.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: And the letter said essentially
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.87,0:27:14.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you you must call people by
Dialogue: 0,0:27:14.95,0:27:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the pronouns they want?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:16.63,0:27:18.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: The letters basically said that –
Dialogue: 0,0:27:18.97,0:27:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is paraphrasing, obviously –
Dialogue: 0,0:27:21.19,0:27:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I'm required to abide by the university
Dialogue: 0,0:27:22.93,0:27:25.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policies and the Ontario Human Rights Code.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:25.10,0:27:27.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a strong implication in the letter,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:27.19,0:27:28.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by having this discussion,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.75,0:27:30.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I wasn't doing so.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.49,0:27:31.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, they're asking me to stop.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:31.88,0:27:32.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I can tell you also
Dialogue: 0,0:27:32.93,0:27:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why they're asking me to stop
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.04,0:27:37.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,apart from that. The codes, as written,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:37.10,0:27:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make the university just as liable
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.89,0:27:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for my speech as I am. So, not only is
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.37,0:27:44.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there a reasonable possibility that what
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.74,0:27:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm doing is uttering hate speech now
Dialogue: 0,0:27:46.54,0:27:48.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under our law, but the university is
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.66,0:27:50.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legally responsible for that.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:50.92,0:27:52.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, I think they consulted with their lawyers
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.63,0:27:54.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and decided that maybe the claim that
Dialogue: 0,0:27:54.61,0:27:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was making in my video was correct – that –
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.71,0:27:59.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So – And so, I don't regard that as trivial.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:59.50,0:28:00.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:00.40,0:28:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the lawyer who's discussing this is
Dialogue: 0,0:28:02.92,0:28:05.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,downplaying the significance of it tremendously.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.39,0:28:06.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Could I speak to the campus
Dialogue: 0,0:28:06.95,0:28:07.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,climate about this?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:07.90,0:28:09.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Go ahead.\NNICHOLAS: Because I don't agree with
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.35,0:28:11.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why Dr. Peterson has been asked
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.40,0:28:14.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to stop abusing students on campus.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:14.05,0:28:16.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: To stop doing what?\NNICHOLAS: Abusing students –
Dialogue: 0,0:28:16.27,0:28:17.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: I see.\NNICHOLAS: – and other members of
Dialogue: 0,0:28:17.77,0:28:19.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our learning community who do deserve
Dialogue: 0,0:28:19.72,0:28:21.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,respect and do deserve to be able to work
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.37,0:28:23.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and learn and contribute to society
Dialogue: 0,0:28:23.62,0:28:27.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a place where, if they are physically assaulted,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.97,0:28:31.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they are –\NJORDAN: The assaults so far
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.78,0:28:33.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came from the social-justice warriors
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.61,0:28:35.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who were at this free-speech rally and
Dialogue: 0,0:28:35.20,0:28:37.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost 2 million people have watched those, so far.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:37.48,0:28:39.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: This is not accurate. \NThis is not accurate.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:39.09,0:28:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, you can look \Nat the videos yourself
Dialogue: 0,0:28:40.64,0:28:41.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: You are being actioned because people
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.92,0:28:44.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have been making complaints about your behavior.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:44.47,0:28:46.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes, I understand that.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:46.17,0:28:47.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Yes. and so we're seeing
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.34,0:28:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a greater opportunity for social justice
Dialogue: 0,0:28:48.69,0:28:51.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happening that many people won't understand.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:51.44,0:28:53.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Nick, can I be clear on something?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:53.23,0:28:54.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You've accused him of abusing
Dialogue: 0,0:28:54.94,0:28:56.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,students by not using the pronouns they
Dialogue: 0,0:28:56.54,0:28:57.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to be addressed by.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:57.98,0:28:59.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: That's how I see it. Absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:59.24,0:29:01.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: That is tantamount to abuse in your view.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:01.09,0:29:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Absolutely!
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.01,0:29:04.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many, many global documents, many organizations –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:04.62,0:29:06.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: How about violence?\NIs it tantamount to violence?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:06.84,0:29:07.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Yes. Absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:07.83,0:29:09.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: How about hate speech?\NIs it tantamount to hate speech?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.67,0:29:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Yes! Of course, it's hate speech.\NJORDAN: Fine. That's –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:11.24,0:29:13.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: – to tell someone that\Nyou won't refer to them as –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.55,0:29:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a way that they –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:14.50,0:29:16.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that recognizes their humanity and dignity.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:16.49,0:29:19.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Mary, let me get you in on this at this point.\NMARY: Sure. [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.57,0:29:21.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: You've got something you want to say \Nor can I put a question to you?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:21.58,0:29:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: Uh, both go ahead. STEVE: Okay.\NMARY: Put the question and I'll –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:24.16,0:29:25.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: You're a writer, Mary.\NMARY: I am.\N
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.88,0:29:28.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I know you care about free speech\Nbecause you're a writer.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:28.55,0:29:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: Yes.\NSTEVE: Does Jordan Peterson
Dialogue: 0,0:29:31.27,0:29:32.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a little place in your heart
Dialogue: 0,0:29:32.71,0:29:34.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he's arguing free speech here?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.51,0:29:36.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I think the interesting thing about
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.16,0:29:38.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jordan and how I feel about his video –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:38.68,0:29:40.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Jordan and I actually had an
Dialogue: 0,0:29:40.87,0:29:42.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opportunity to talk at length before
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.46,0:29:45.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wrote The Walrus article. And he sails
Dialogue: 0,0:29:45.16,0:29:47.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really close to things that I think
Dialogue: 0,0:29:47.56,0:29:49.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people can relate to. And I think that we
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.66,0:29:51.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all want to have an open
Dialogue: 0,0:29:51.61,0:29:53.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discourse, we want conversations to
Dialogue: 0,0:29:53.32,0:29:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfold, we want people to feel like they –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:54.85,0:29:56.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they have something to say – if they
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.59,0:29:57.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a question, they can ask it –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:57.91,0:30:00.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they're not going to be censored.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.91,0:30:03.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But he sails really close and then right past it.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.07,0:30:04.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's where he and I part ways
Dialogue: 0,0:30:04.81,0:30:06.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because what I don't really understand
Dialogue: 0,0:30:06.55,0:30:11.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is when you listen to the video,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:11.02,0:30:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he piles a lot of things into the basket of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:14.35,0:30:16.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using the pronouns that people want.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.91,0:30:19.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it seems to me –
Dialogue: 0,0:30:19.41,0:30:21.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:21.98,0:30:23.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But one of his anxieties –
Dialogue: 0,0:30:23.24,0:30:24.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he talks about being
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.20,0:30:27.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fearful and anxious in his video –
Dialogue: 0,0:30:27.29,0:30:31.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that somehow there's a cabal of trans activists
Dialogue: 0,0:30:31.92,0:30:34.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who have so much power that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:34.30,0:30:37.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they are going to basically –
Dialogue: 0,0:30:37.46,0:30:39.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Using the pronouns that people want
Dialogue: 0,0:30:39.78,0:30:41.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and capitulating to these demands
Dialogue: 0,0:30:41.77,0:30:44.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of pulls out the
Dialogue: 0,0:30:44.27,0:30:45.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,critical Jenga piece of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:45.80,0:30:47.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Western canon, right? [chuckles] I mean, basically,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:47.87,0:30:50.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jordan is arguing that this is going to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:50.15,0:30:52.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,create chaos and anarchy and
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.19,0:30:56.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's essentially a Marxist plot that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:56.53,0:31:01.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is there to sow violence and there to
Dialogue: 0,0:31:01.40,0:31:04.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sow confusion and topple any kind of hierarchy.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:04.55,0:31:06.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Can I just jump in there for a second?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.98,0:31:08.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is that an accurate characterization of your view on this?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:08.63,0:31:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I listened really closely to that tape.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:10.67,0:31:12.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it is. STEVE: Is it – In your view, has she
Dialogue: 0,0:31:12.89,0:31:16.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accurately characterized where you're coming from?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:16.32,0:31:18.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: It's not a transexual cabal
Dialogue: 0,0:31:18.43,0:31:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by any stretch of the imagination.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:20.72,0:31:23.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is it a cabal of radical left-wingers?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.58,0:31:25.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes. It's a cabal of radical left-wingers,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:25.58,0:31:27.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they've been active behind and in
Dialogue: 0,0:31:27.92,0:31:29.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,front of the scenes increasingly over
Dialogue: 0,0:31:29.99,0:31:32.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the last 30 years. And my estimation is
Dialogue: 0,0:31:32.45,0:31:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that departments like Women Studies have
Dialogue: 0,0:31:34.76,0:31:36.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trained between 300,000
Dialogue: 0,0:31:36.47,0:31:39.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and 3 million radical left-wing activists.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:39.60,0:31:41.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they're making –\NMARY: And they're all
Dialogue: 0,0:31:41.09,0:31:44.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,underpaid, so don't worry. [LAUGHS]\NJORDAN: Well, they could
Dialogue: 0,0:31:44.03,0:31:46.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pick higher-paying occupations if they
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.34,0:31:48.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wanted higher-paying occupations. But –
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.38,0:31:51.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Because sexism\Ndoes not exist. [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:31:51.11,0:31:51.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are you kidding me?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:51.100,0:31:54.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Let's not get off topic here, folks.\NGo ahead, Mary.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:54.39,0:31:56.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: I think we're directly on point.\NSTEVE: Mary, come on back.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:56.58,0:32:01.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[inaudible crosstalk]\NMARY: So, I think Jordan has conceded that –
Dialogue: 0,0:32:01.11,0:32:06.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think I've grasped his concern\NAt the very least, I've grasped the concern
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.72,0:32:09.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is a kind of chipping away
Dialogue: 0,0:32:09.67,0:32:12.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at order as we've come to know it.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:12.53,0:32:13.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other thing that Jordan and I have in
Dialogue: 0,0:32:13.64,0:32:16.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,common is a real interest in language,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:16.93,0:32:20.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the idea of what can happen when
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.15,0:32:24.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language changes, when it evolves.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:24.50,0:32:26.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was thinking before I came here –
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.03,0:32:28.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was thinking about – I grew up in the Bronx
Dialogue: 0,0:32:28.44,0:32:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I was born in '61. So, I remember very well
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.84,0:32:36.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we went from "Mrs." to "Ms."
Dialogue: 0,0:32:36.42,0:32:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And my father was appalled. And he kept
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.72,0:32:41.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying "Ms" and he thought was funny
Dialogue: 0,0:32:41.93,0:32:43.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because if you couldn't actually identify somebody as
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.85,0:32:47.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either – particularly a female – as either
Dialogue: 0,0:32:47.06,0:32:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,married or single, then – chaos, right?\NSTEVE: The notion of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:51.68,0:32:53.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,characterizing a woman independent of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:53.30,0:32:55.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,her marital status was controversial at the time.\NMARY: That's right. And apparently very,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:55.61,0:32:58.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very confusing. And so, I'm reminded of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:58.25,0:33:01.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that when there's the –
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.16,0:33:04.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when the suggestion is made that somehow if we
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.07,0:33:06.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have words that don't fit into
Dialogue: 0,0:33:06.70,0:33:08.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something that we're very familiar with
Dialogue: 0,0:33:08.60,0:33:11.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that we've used to date, that chaos
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.42,0:33:14.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will ensue, that everyone will be confused. I don't believe that.\NJORDAN: Well, there's two differences.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:14.27,0:33:15.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: There's no evidence of that historically.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:15.65,0:33:17.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I hear you. But there was no law
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.72,0:33:20.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obliging people to use the word "Ms."
Dialogue: 0,0:33:20.24,0:33:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: But there were laws to oblige
Dialogue: 0,0:33:22.31,0:33:26.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people to change the way that we
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.03,0:33:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,referred to Black people, for example.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.38,0:33:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was a time when
Dialogue: 0,0:33:32.02,0:33:34.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were any number of words that we
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.07,0:33:36.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now can only say as letters. Can I say
Dialogue: 0,0:33:36.38,0:33:38.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them on TVO? People were called "darkies,"
Dialogue: 0,0:33:38.87,0:33:43.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"niggers," "coons" in polite company. And that evolved.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.46,0:33:45.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Those things changed. When I was
Dialogue: 0,0:33:45.77,0:33:47.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a teenager, people were still using those words.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:47.39,0:33:49.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: So, this is a natural evolution in in your view.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:49.97,0:33:51.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: This is a natural evolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:51.56,0:33:53.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And nobody's – Chaos will not ensue. And –\NJORDAN: If it's a natural
Dialogue: 0,0:33:53.87,0:33:55.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,evolution, then we don't need hate-speech
Dialogue: 0,0:33:55.73,0:33:57.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law to enforce it.\NMARY: But we obviously –
Dialogue: 0,0:33:57.92,0:34:00.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we do because we can drive social change.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:00.38,0:34:01.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it doesn't all have to lead to chaos
Dialogue: 0,0:34:01.94,0:34:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is my point. And I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.70,0:34:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have seen the flip side of –
Dialogue: 0,0:34:06.59,0:34:09.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jordan's argument – I think – has in fact – we
Dialogue: 0,0:34:09.59,0:34:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do have a historical record of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.72,0:34:13.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, when it was left to others to name
Dialogue: 0,0:34:13.31,0:34:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people, we lost indigenous names.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:16.25,0:34:18.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I come from – My mother's from Ireland.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:18.20,0:34:19.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She was from a generation that finally got to
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.70,0:34:21.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learn her own language again.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:21.41,0:34:22.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She couldn't even speak Gaelic to her
Dialogue: 0,0:34:22.73,0:34:23.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,parents because they hadn't been allowed
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.99,0:34:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to speak it. So we know. We've seen the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.00,0:34:28.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,effect when people can't use their own
Dialogue: 0,0:34:28.73,0:34:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language, when they can't use their own names.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.20,0:34:31.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. Let me get Jordan to respond to that.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.85,0:34:33.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A natural evolution of things, Jordan.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.23,0:34:38.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's how it's being described.\NJORDAN: Look. Words are tools.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:38.12,0:34:39.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Maybe that was one of the great philosophical
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.35,0:34:41.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discoveries of the 20th century.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.78,0:34:43.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that means – And people are always
Dialogue: 0,0:34:43.91,0:34:46.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking for new tools to operate in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:46.22,0:34:49.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you invent a good tool,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:49.43,0:34:50.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a new word, then people will pick it up
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.95,0:34:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just as fast as they possibly can.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:53.48,0:34:55.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You really see that in English. But the words
Dialogue: 0,0:34:55.73,0:34:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are being required now are not good
Dialogue: 0,0:34:57.80,0:34:59.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tools and that's why people aren't using them.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:59.48,0:35:01.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, instead, what we have is the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.94,0:35:03.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,use of force, despite the fact that
Dialogue: 0,0:35:03.74,0:35:05.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's being denied – although we've
Dialogue: 0,0:35:05.75,0:35:07.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already established that, at least in the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:07.55,0:35:08.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opinion of one of the people on this
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.87,0:35:10.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,panel, I'm already guilty of a hate crime,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:10.70,0:35:12.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is what I said I was guilty of
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.14,0:35:14.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when I made that video.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.72,0:35:15.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The issue with the law is quite
Dialogue: 0,0:35:15.83,0:35:17.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,straightforward. The government is
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.93,0:35:19.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,responding – is requiring us to use
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.91,0:35:21.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certain language. That's not the same as
Dialogue: 0,0:35:21.86,0:35:24.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not using certain language. And it's a
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.26,0:35:25.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,line – And this is the fundamental issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.82,0:35:27.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is maybe the fundamental issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.56,0:35:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's a line we should not cross.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.26,0:35:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We should not allow the government to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.52,0:35:34.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decide which words we're allowed to use.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.16,0:35:36.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a mistake – and it's a mistake that
Dialogue: 0,0:35:36.74,0:35:38.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strikes right at the heart of free speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.15,0:35:39.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the thing about free speech
Dialogue: 0,0:35:39.92,0:35:41.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that it's not the right to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.84,0:35:44.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criticize your leaders, which is what
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.93,0:35:46.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people usually characterize it as.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:46.73,0:35:49.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Freedom of speech is freedom to engage
Dialogue: 0,0:35:49.25,0:35:51.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the processes that we use to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:51.23,0:35:54.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,formulate the problems in our society,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:54.02,0:35:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to generate solutions to them, and reach a
Dialogue: 0,0:35:56.00,0:35:58.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consensus. It's actually a mechanism –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:58.04,0:36:00.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not just another value. And you should
Dialogue: 0,0:36:00.11,0:36:01.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,put constraints on free speech with the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:01.85,0:36:03.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most extreme caution because you
Dialogue: 0,0:36:03.92,0:36:06.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interfere with people's ability to think
Dialogue: 0,0:36:06.14,0:36:07.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and communicate.\NSTEVE: Let me get Theryn to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:07.82,0:36:09.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weigh in. Theryn, you've been hearing the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:09.11,0:36:10.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate here in the studio. Why don't you
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.49,0:36:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weigh in and pick it up?\NTHERYN: Well, I guess I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.61,0:36:15.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the same boat as Dr. Peterson when
Dialogue: 0,0:36:15.53,0:36:17.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it comes to being guilty of a hate crime –
Dialogue: 0,0:36:17.51,0:36:21.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or a – sorry – a hate-speech infringement –
Dialogue: 0,0:36:21.62,0:36:24.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, I mean, I draw the line somewhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:24.35,0:36:27.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For example, I refuse to use pronouns
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.71,0:36:30.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like "zes" and "zir." I don't have a problem
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.86,0:36:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using "they/them/their" pronouns –
Dialogue: 0,0:36:32.75,0:36:34.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that also happens just to be because of
Dialogue: 0,0:36:34.52,0:36:36.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the circles in which I move. I happen to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:36.11,0:36:37.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know people who use gender-neutral
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.91,0:36:40.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pronouns so I've gotten used to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:40.34,0:36:42.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the vast majority of people are not
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.86,0:36:45.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to come into contact with the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.41,0:36:47.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,incredibly small fraction of the
Dialogue: 0,0:36:47.06,0:36:49.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,population of gender non-binary people.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:49.81,0:36:53.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's why this is never
Dialogue: 0,0:36:53.06,0:36:54.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really going to pick up,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.17,0:36:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in my opinion. When it comes to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:56.00,0:36:59.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Mrs." and "Ms.," at least half of
Dialogue: 0,0:36:59.57,0:37:03.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the population is female, so there was
Dialogue: 0,0:37:03.35,0:37:06.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some interaction with the term "Mrs."
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.47,0:37:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,versus "Ms.," and there were some
Dialogue: 0,0:37:10.67,0:37:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interactions so people could pick it up.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:12.08,0:37:14.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There just aren't enough gender
Dialogue: 0,0:37:14.78,0:37:17.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-binary – I use that in quotation marks,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:17.18,0:37:19.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I hate that term because it's a
Dialogue: 0,0:37:19.37,0:37:21.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political term not a gender
Dialogue: 0,0:37:21.92,0:37:24.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identity or a term of
Dialogue: 0,0:37:24.08,0:37:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identification. It's just a political term.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:25.52,0:37:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But regardless, I don't think it's
Dialogue: 0,0:37:28.70,0:37:30.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to pick up. There's just not enough
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.50,0:37:33.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of these people to interact with.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.53,0:37:36.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: The Twittersphere has been\Nbuzzing with this conversation.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:36.44,0:37:39.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And let's just pull one up here.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.89,0:37:41.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's pull up one tweet. This was
Dialogue: 0,0:37:41.78,0:37:42.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tweeted to a number of people including,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:42.95,0:37:44.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you can see in the middle, Jordan B. Peterson,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:44.96,0:37:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's on our program tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:46.64,0:37:49.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I so look forward to Bill C16 putting
Dialogue: 0,0:37:49.88,0:37:52.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your kind of silly trolling to an end," it says.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:52.21,0:37:55.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are people – Let's go to our
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.28,0:37:57.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Professor Kyle in Ottawa. "There are
Dialogue: 0,0:37:57.74,0:37:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people out there who hope that C16 lives
Dialogue: 0,0:37:59.84,0:38:02.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up to Jordan's worst fears. Do you agree
Dialogue: 0,0:38:02.72,0:38:05.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that C16 ought to be able to prevent
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.69,0:38:08.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people from expressing negative opinions
Dialogue: 0,0:38:08.54,0:38:11.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about transgender people?" KYLE: So, first I want
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.99,0:38:14.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to clarify that Bill C16 only applies to
Dialogue: 0,0:38:14.63,0:38:17.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,federally-regulated entities.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:17.48,0:38:19.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, for example, the University of Toronto is
Dialogue: 0,0:38:19.01,0:38:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under provincial jurisdiction, so it is
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.72,0:38:23.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,therefore subject to the Ontario Human Rights Code.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:23.06,0:38:24.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I think that's an
Dialogue: 0,0:38:24.14,0:38:26.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important point to note. I also want to
Dialogue: 0,0:38:26.54,0:38:28.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,note there's been a lot of talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:38:28.49,0:38:31.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hate crimes. That seems to be
Dialogue: 0,0:38:31.10,0:38:33.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of an American import into our discussion.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.38,0:38:35.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The only two changes that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.69,0:38:38.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this Bill C16 make are to make minor
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.99,0:38:43.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,amendments to Section 318 and 718\Nof the Criminal Code.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:43.10,0:38:44.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first is advocating genocide,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.93,0:38:46.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I've talked about –\Na very, very extreme, high standard.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:46.94,0:38:48.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then second off,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.98,0:38:51.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at sentencing, after an offense has been
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.59,0:38:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,committed and the person has been found guilty,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:53.60,0:38:57.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what 718 does is it tells judges that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:57.08,0:39:00.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they ought to treat hate motivation as
Dialogue: 0,0:39:00.20,0:39:02.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an aggravating factor at sentencing –
Dialogue: 0,0:39:02.54,0:39:04.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to treat that as a more severe form.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:04.55,0:39:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And currently, we have a series of identities
Dialogue: 0,0:39:07.76,0:39:10.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are set out in 718 – things like sexual
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.31,0:39:13.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,orientation, race. We don't have currently
Dialogue: 0,0:39:13.67,0:39:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender identity and gender expression there.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:14.93,0:39:17.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, that's what this does.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:17.45,0:39:18.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I think – I just want to make it very
Dialogue: 0,0:39:18.89,0:39:20.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clear that we ought not to be importing
Dialogue: 0,0:39:20.69,0:39:23.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,American concepts into the discussion here.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:23.86,0:39:27.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, to the extent that Bill C16
Dialogue: 0,0:39:27.38,0:39:31.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,makes changes only to – in the Canadian
Dialogue: 0,0:39:31.01,0:39:33.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Human Rights Act context – to federally
Dialogue: 0,0:39:33.71,0:39:35.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulated entities, which is not the
Dialogue: 0,0:39:35.69,0:39:37.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University of Toronto. STEVE: Nicholas, let me
Dialogue: 0,0:39:37.31,0:39:39.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,follow up with you. Why in your view do
Dialogue: 0,0:39:39.62,0:39:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you think the trans community needs this
Dialogue: 0,0:39:41.60,0:39:43.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of legislative protection?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:43.31,0:39:44.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Well, thank you. That's basically the point
Dialogue: 0,0:39:44.69,0:39:46.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that hasn't been raised yet which is
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.52,0:39:48.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people are actually suffering huge
Dialogue: 0,0:39:48.94,0:39:52.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lack of access to resources that will
Dialogue: 0,0:39:52.55,0:39:54.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allow people to survive. So, people are
Dialogue: 0,0:39:54.50,0:39:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being physically assaulted, people do not
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.36,0:39:58.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have counselors that they can go to who
Dialogue: 0,0:39:58.19,0:40:01.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are not going to – as Dr. Peterson has
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.73,0:40:04.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,done on YouTube – recommend that they
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.07,0:40:06.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually become more anxious and more
Dialogue: 0,0:40:06.19,0:40:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,upset about situations. People are being assaulted.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.22,0:40:12.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I brought all sorts of really
Dialogue: 0,0:40:12.14,0:40:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depressing stats that – People who are
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.25,0:40:18.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,leaning towards thinking that this is
Dialogue: 0,0:40:18.95,0:40:20.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not that big of a deal, those people need
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.99,0:40:24.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to look at those stats. But many people – \NSTEVE: Give us one. Give us one stat.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.71,0:40:28.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Yeah. So, 58% of students
Dialogue: 0,0:40:28.37,0:40:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could not get academic transcripts with
Dialogue: 0,0:40:30.20,0:40:31.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their correct name or pronoun.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:31.87,0:40:34.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That causes a huge chain of events for
Dialogue: 0,0:40:34.40,0:40:36.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,students or anybody who's had any kind
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.29,0:40:38.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of academic training. As everyone
Dialogue: 0,0:40:38.66,0:40:40.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recognizes, we need to be able to have
Dialogue: 0,0:40:40.22,0:40:42.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,references, we need to be able to have resumes,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:42.13,0:40:45.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we need to be able to get jobs.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:45.89,0:40:48.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: So, I want to be sure that I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:40:48.71,0:40:50.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clearly understanding your point here,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.27,0:40:52.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is – and therefore they feel disrespected,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:52.61,0:40:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore this affects their life in
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.26,0:40:56.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a very real way? Is that right?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:56.33,0:40:58.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: The feeling of disrespect is not as
Dialogue: 0,0:40:58.10,0:41:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important as the ways that people in
Dialogue: 0,0:41:00.95,0:41:02.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,authority are able to circumvent the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:02.96,0:41:05.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possibilities for living. So, it has more
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.30,0:41:06.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do with not being able to find housing,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:06.74,0:41:08.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore being homeless.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:08.99,0:41:10.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It has more to do with not being able to get
Dialogue: 0,0:41:10.97,0:41:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,jobs because people are discriminated against.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:13.19,0:41:15.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we're not actually talking –
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.62,0:41:16.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we shouldn't be talking about free speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:16.85,0:41:18.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What we should be talking about are the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:18.23,0:41:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,social issues facing people who are
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.88,0:41:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being discriminated against
Dialogue: 0,0:41:21.19,0:41:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what that looks like on campus –
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.44,0:41:26.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that some professors refuse to offer
Dialogue: 0,0:41:26.38,0:41:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basic dignity to students and colleagues.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:28.96,0:41:32.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that leads to people missing classes,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:32.65,0:41:34.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it leads to people dropping out, it leads
Dialogue: 0,0:41:34.87,0:41:38.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to a lack of positive opportunity for
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.17,0:41:40.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society to actually benefit from the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:40.69,0:41:43.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contributions of many, many people.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:43.06,0:41:44.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I also don't teach that there's a huge
Dialogue: 0,0:41:44.86,0:41:46.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,divide between trans people and
Dialogue: 0,0:41:46.39,0:41:47.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non trans people because I would say
Dialogue: 0,0:41:47.98,0:41:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the number is 100% of people
Dialogue: 0,0:41:49.84,0:41:52.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will benefit from more open discussion.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:52.27,0:41:54.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the problems is that
Dialogue: 0,0:41:54.22,0:41:55.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's being addressed in a black-and-white way.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:55.69,0:41:57.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's too bad that we can't actually
Dialogue: 0,0:41:57.40,0:41:58.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have an open conversation because there's
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.99,0:42:00.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a huge wall of violence between us.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:00.91,0:42:02.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Here is somebody who did not
Dialogue: 0,0:42:02.68,0:42:03.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,share your view on that because we
Dialogue: 0,0:42:03.94,0:42:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,invited another guest to be on the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.47,0:42:07.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,program today. And this person initially
Dialogue: 0,0:42:07.96,0:42:09.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said "yes," and then sent a Facebook
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.67,0:42:11.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,message to our producer [unknown]
Dialogue: 0,0:42:11.59,0:42:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[? Schamberg] saying, "You know what?
Dialogue: 0,0:42:13.78,0:42:15.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Changed my mind." "Giving Jordan Peterson this
Dialogue: 0,0:42:15.49,0:42:17.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,platform serves to legitimize
Dialogue: 0,0:42:17.62,0:42:19.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his views which are based on bigotry and misinformation.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:19.96,0:42:22.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The humanity and rights
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.21,0:42:24.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of transgender non-binary and intersex
Dialogue: 0,0:42:24.52,0:42:26.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are not a matter of debate,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:26.20,0:42:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and holding a debate which places a false
Dialogue: 0,0:42:28.60,0:42:30.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,equivalency between the views expressed
Dialogue: 0,0:42:30.16,0:42:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by Peterson and the human rights
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.93,0:42:33.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,concerns of the trans community would be
Dialogue: 0,0:42:33.94,0:42:36.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an act of transphobia. Therefore, none of
Dialogue: 0,0:42:36.37,0:42:40.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,us wish to participate in this." Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:40.84,0:42:43.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS:Thank you. Thank you for reading that. It was a very
Dialogue: 0,0:42:43.12,0:42:44.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important perspective. STEVE: That's why I read it. I
Dialogue: 0,0:42:44.92,0:42:47.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wonder whether, Jordan,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:47.10,0:42:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody's talking past each other here.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.36,0:42:50.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You are trying to make a point about free speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:50.50,0:42:53.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: I don't think we're talking past each other.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.20,0:42:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: The other side – Well, but the others – You're
Dialogue: 0,0:42:54.85,0:42:56.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trying to make a point about free speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:56.14,0:42:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other side is trying to make
Dialogue: 0,0:42:57.43,0:42:59.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a point about the rights – the human
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.80,0:43:01.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rights of trans people. That's not the
Dialogue: 0,0:43:01.48,0:43:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point that you're trying to make.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:03.43,0:43:05.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do we have two different groups here that are
Dialogue: 0,0:43:05.08,0:43:06.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trying to make two different points and
Dialogue: 0,0:43:06.55,0:43:08.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they find themselves in the same bowl of soup,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:08.11,0:43:10.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's why this has turned into
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.03,0:43:11.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the conflagration it has?
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.92,0:43:13.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, it's partly that, because the issues we're
Dialogue: 0,0:43:13.96,0:43:15.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussing have to center on some
Dialogue: 0,0:43:15.55,0:43:17.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual issues, and they happen to be
Dialogue: 0,0:43:17.20,0:43:19.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,centering on the issue surrounding
Dialogue: 0,0:43:19.45,0:43:22.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transgender language. But I don't think
Dialogue: 0,0:43:22.66,0:43:24.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're talking past each other at all in
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.55,0:43:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a fundamental sense. I mean, I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:43:27.22,0:43:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the real problem here is that
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.96,0:43:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a concerted attempt made being
Dialogue: 0,0:43:31.60,0:43:34.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made by many people to
Dialogue: 0,0:43:34.30,0:43:36.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subvert all values to the value of equality of outcome.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:36.73,0:43:40.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we need more than one value,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:40.03,0:43:41.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first of all, if we're going to survive
Dialogue: 0,0:43:41.14,0:43:43.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a society, because you can't solve
Dialogue: 0,0:43:43.57,0:43:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,every problem with the same approach.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:46.27,0:43:48.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are more insidious things, in my
Dialogue: 0,0:43:48.49,0:43:50.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,estimation, going on underneath.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:50.65,0:43:53.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean even the the missive that you just read
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.65,0:43:55.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said that, well, even providing me with a
Dialogue: 0,0:43:55.99,0:43:58.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,platform – let's call it – to express my
Dialogue: 0,0:43:58.39,0:44:00.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,views is something that shouldn't be allowed.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.43,0:44:02.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's like, "Yes, that's why I made the video."
Dialogue: 0,0:44:02.29,0:44:04.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was because many people are
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.15,0:44:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,claiming that the expression of these
Dialogue: 0,0:44:06.16,0:44:07.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sorts of views should no longer be permitted.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:07.66,0:44:11.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's this view for now.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:11.14,0:44:13.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this is a minor issue in some ways
Dialogue: 0,0:44:13.15,0:44:15.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compared to the larger issue that's at stake,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:15.28,0:44:17.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is our right to have
Dialogue: 0,0:44:17.56,0:44:19.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussions of this sort at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:19.12,0:44:20.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, I mean, one thing that happened right when
Dialogue: 0,0:44:20.47,0:44:22.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we started this was that there was an
Dialogue: 0,0:44:22.09,0:44:23.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,initial claim, for example, that there's
Dialogue: 0,0:44:23.65,0:44:26.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no such thing as biological sex.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:26.17,0:44:28.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I believe quite firmly that if we continue
Dialogue: 0,0:44:28.81,0:44:30.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on our present path at the universities
Dialogue: 0,0:44:30.73,0:44:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for five more years, that's a discussion we
Dialogue: 0,0:44:32.74,0:44:34.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will not actually be able to have on campuses.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:34.15,0:44:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because – STEVE: Because you believe –\NJORDAN: By fiat. I mean,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:37.03,0:44:39.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legislation already implicitly presumes
Dialogue: 0,0:44:39.85,0:44:43.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that biological sex, gender identity,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:43.60,0:44:45.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and gender expression – which we haven't
Dialogue: 0,0:44:45.10,0:44:47.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even talked about yet – vary independently.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.32,0:44:51.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is simply not true.\NSTEVE: Theryn, there –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:51.31,0:44:52.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the person who sent that Facebook message
Dialogue: 0,0:44:52.87,0:44:54.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinks that we're partaking in
Dialogue: 0,0:44:54.16,0:44:55.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transphobia just by having this debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:55.93,0:44:58.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I hope that's not the case. But I wonder if
Dialogue: 0,0:44:58.00,0:45:00.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you could give us your explanation for
Dialogue: 0,0:45:00.37,0:45:04.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why some people adamantly refuse even
Dialogue: 0,0:45:04.06,0:45:05.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have this discussion – that the notion
Dialogue: 0,0:45:05.83,0:45:07.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of having this discussion is somehow transphobic.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:07.66,0:45:14.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,THERYN: I think it has to do with –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:14.52,0:45:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a lacking when it
Dialogue: 0,0:45:16.63,0:45:19.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,comes to actually being able
Dialogue: 0,0:45:19.12,0:45:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to defend your points through argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:22.84,0:45:24.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, if you open up the discussion for argument,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:24.73,0:45:27.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they know they will lose.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:27.72,0:45:30.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's absolutely ludicrous and
Dialogue: 0,0:45:30.49,0:45:32.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insane to say that having this
Dialogue: 0,0:45:32.59,0:45:36.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion is, by default, transphobic.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:36.04,0:45:38.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's even more – it's equally
Dialogue: 0,0:45:38.50,0:45:40.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ludicrous to call Dr. Peterson – what he
Dialogue: 0,0:45:40.63,0:45:44.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said – transphobic. I think it takes –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:44.29,0:45:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Using that term so willy-nilly,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:47.44,0:45:49.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it takes the emotional response to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:49.54,0:45:51.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a term like "transphobia" and [conflates] it
Dialogue: 0,0:45:51.76,0:45:55.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with something as, in my opinion,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:55.75,0:45:57.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as productive as having an open discussion.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.55,0:46:00.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that's very insidious.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:00.04,0:46:01.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that's very manipulative.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:01.57,0:46:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Kyle? Are we being transphobic here by
Dialogue: 0,0:46:03.43,0:46:06.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having this debate? KYLE: Well, I do worry about
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.67,0:46:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,setting up a false equivalency
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.22,0:46:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this conversation and really even having –
Dialogue: 0,0:46:11.65,0:46:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making the premise that trans lives are
Dialogue: 0,0:46:13.78,0:46:15.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up for debate. They're not up for debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:15.55,0:46:17.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Human rights aren't up for debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:17.20,0:46:18.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the reason that I agreed to be on
Dialogue: 0,0:46:18.31,0:46:19.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the program is that I've been very troubled
Dialogue: 0,0:46:19.99,0:46:22.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the misinformation about what the law
Dialogue: 0,0:46:22.27,0:46:24.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is actually going to do. And so, I really
Dialogue: 0,0:46:24.61,0:46:25.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,grappled with whether or not I wanted
Dialogue: 0,0:46:25.99,0:46:28.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to participate in this discussion.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:28.00,0:46:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I thought it was very important to really
Dialogue: 0,0:46:29.56,0:46:31.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,try to dial back the hateful rhetoric
Dialogue: 0,0:46:31.90,0:46:33.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and actually do a very careful
Dialogue: 0,0:46:33.90,0:46:36.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion about what the law is
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.19,0:46:37.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually designed to achieve and,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:37.78,0:46:40.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ultimately, to promote a more equitable
Dialogue: 0,0:46:40.39,0:46:42.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and just society. So, we've talked about
Dialogue: 0,0:46:42.39,0:46:44.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freedom of expression to use the
Dialogue: 0,0:46:44.59,0:46:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canadian term, but we should also be
Dialogue: 0,0:46:46.30,0:46:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking about other values like equality
Dialogue: 0,0:46:49.20,0:46:52.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and anti-racism, I think. STEVE: Just curious,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:52.33,0:46:53.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mary, I'm gonna get to in one sec.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:53.62,0:46:55.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,curious, though. You've now participated
Dialogue: 0,0:46:55.30,0:46:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 90% of the program. We're just about done.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.48,0:47:00.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you – Was it a good idea for you to come on?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:00.88,0:47:02.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,KYLE: I think that it's an opportunity
Dialogue: 0,0:47:02.98,0:47:05.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to try to work through some of
Dialogue: 0,0:47:05.50,0:47:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legal issues, the social and human rights
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.84,0:47:11.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and equality issues, and so, I'm happy
Dialogue: 0,0:47:11.50,0:47:13.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be here. But I recognize that other
Dialogue: 0,0:47:13.06,0:47:14.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people's experiences – they might find,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:14.95,0:47:16.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ultimately, that participating in this
Dialogue: 0,0:47:16.42,0:47:19.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,program was a mistake. And time will tell.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:19.03,0:47:21.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Mary, you wanted to follow up.\NMARY: Well, I certainly – sorry –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:21.61,0:47:23.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I certainly want to say that I found
Dialogue: 0,0:47:23.08,0:47:25.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kyle – I found that what you brought to it
Dialogue: 0,0:47:25.39,0:47:26.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of putting the bill
Dialogue: 0,0:47:26.86,0:47:28.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into perspective actually really helpful,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:28.33,0:47:30.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and probably helpful to a lot of people.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:30.07,0:47:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I'm glad that Kyle was here.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:32.50,0:47:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, for me, one of the things that I'm really –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.76,0:47:36.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I felt anxious about coming in –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:36.52,0:47:39.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm still puzzling over – why this issue?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:39.25,0:47:42.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why this issue? So – and I do think – at the risk
Dialogue: 0,0:47:42.79,0:47:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of bringing in the United States again,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:45.63,0:47:47.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there does seem to be a similarity
Dialogue: 0,0:47:47.95,0:47:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between some of the rhetoric we're
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.96,0:47:51.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hearing down south right now through
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.43,0:47:53.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the election and this. It's been –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:53.44,0:47:56.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It feels like it's greatly exaggerated –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:56.65,0:48:00.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of what can – what will fallout from this, what will –
Dialogue: 0,0:48:00.01,0:48:03.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we're sort of – It feels like a bit of
Dialogue: 0,0:48:03.31,0:48:05.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a tempest in a teapot. I don't see
Dialogue: 0,0:48:05.95,0:48:08.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the connections that Jordan is making.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:08.05,0:48:09.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as a person who identifies as transgender,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:09.28,0:48:12.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's very, very confusing that this is
Dialogue: 0,0:48:12.37,0:48:15.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somehow up for discussion.\NSTEVE: You saw the
Dialogue: 0,0:48:15.01,0:48:16.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tape at the beginning of the program
Dialogue: 0,0:48:16.48,0:48:18.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the – I mean he tried to give a speech at
Dialogue: 0,0:48:18.61,0:48:22.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a university campus and was really quite
Dialogue: 0,0:48:22.21,0:48:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mercilessly shouted down.\NMARY: And that would
Dialogue: 0,0:48:24.49,0:48:26.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be one of the places where Jordan and I
Dialogue: 0,0:48:26.11,0:48:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would have some common ground in
Dialogue: 0,0:48:28.36,0:48:30.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there has been a trend,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:30.87,0:48:34.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some ways, for people to allow
Dialogue: 0,0:48:34.17,0:48:36.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no platforming, and, "This person's views
Dialogue: 0,0:48:36.97,0:48:38.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are objectionable and we don't want them
Dialogue: 0,0:48:38.53,0:48:40.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to come on the campus."\NSTEVE: What do you think of that?
Dialogue: 0,0:48:40.03,0:48:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I think it's probably
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.52,0:48:44.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,best not discussed in the context of
Dialogue: 0,0:48:44.65,0:48:47.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone's personal identity, right? [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:48:47.05,0:48:48.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So,that's part of my – that's part of what
Dialogue: 0,0:48:48.43,0:48:50.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm bothered by by this discussion. So –
Dialogue: 0,0:48:50.86,0:48:52.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: But if you can't have a discussion about
Dialogue: 0,0:48:52.39,0:48:54.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free speech on a university campus,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:54.64,0:48:55.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then I guess you can't have one,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:55.69,0:48:56.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because that's supposed to be\Nwhere they happen, isn't it?
Dialogue: 0,0:48:56.77,0:48:59.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,MARY: I agree with you. I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.11,0:49:00.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is a problem. What I'm trying to say
Dialogue: 0,0:49:00.76,0:49:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that those issues came up around –
Dialogue: 0,0:49:02.92,0:49:06.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues of someone who was
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.43,0:49:07.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pro-Israel who wanted to come onto campus –
Dialogue: 0,0:49:07.81,0:49:09.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those things are political.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:09.67,0:49:12.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My identity, my personal identity, my gender
Dialogue: 0,0:49:12.88,0:49:14.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identity is very separate from my
Dialogue: 0,0:49:14.05,0:49:15.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political identity. And so, it's very
Dialogue: 0,0:49:15.79,0:49:17.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strange to have this to be where we're
Dialogue: 0,0:49:17.62,0:49:19.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to plant the flag and say,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:19.66,0:49:21.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Enough with this crazy political correctness!" [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:49:21.37,0:49:23.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"You don't get to choose your pronouns!"
Dialogue: 0,0:49:23.35,0:49:25.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It seems trivial to me.\NJORDAN: I thought it was
Dialogue: 0,0:49:25.33,0:49:28.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an axiom, say, of feminism, for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:28.09,0:49:30.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the personal was political.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:30.82,0:49:32.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And isn't that the –? That's a famous phrase.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.95,0:49:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The personal is political. STEVE: Okay. But speaking – NICHOLAS: The personal is
Dialogue: 0,0:49:35.11,0:49:37.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political when someone is attacking you
Dialogue: 0,0:49:37.33,0:49:39.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a basis that is personal and that you
Dialogue: 0,0:49:39.40,0:49:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can't change about yourself. That's a –
Dialogue: 0,0:49:41.59,0:49:44.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is political. And that's when people
Dialogue: 0,0:49:44.35,0:49:46.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes become politicized is when
Dialogue: 0,0:49:46.78,0:49:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they realize that no matter what they do
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.46,0:49:50.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world, there will be people who
Dialogue: 0,0:49:50.35,0:49:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will continue to attack them on racist grounds,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:52.84,0:49:55.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on gender and sexual violence grounds.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:55.15,0:49:57.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's why people start to fight back,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:57.10,0:49:58.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's why people object.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:58.57,0:50:00.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But on –\NJORDAN And your attempts to regulate
Dialogue: 0,0:50:00.79,0:50:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my language use and your repeated –\NNICHOLAS: I don't care about
Dialogue: 0,0:50:02.92,0:50:04.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your language use. I care about the
Dialogue: 0,0:50:04.45,0:50:07.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,safety of the people who are being harmed.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:07.51,0:50:09.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: I know. People who make your kinds of
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.58,0:50:10.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,arguments are always concerned with
Dialogue: 0,0:50:10.90,0:50:12.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other people's safety.\NNICHOLAS: I'm concerned with
Dialogue: 0,0:50:12.73,0:50:13.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my own safety.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:13.41,0:50:15.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My – Just so that people are aware,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:15.69,0:50:18.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my physical, emotional, life, and livelihood
Dialogue: 0,0:50:18.99,0:50:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is at risk from being here. And that's not true of everyone.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:21.24,0:50:23.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: In comparison to mine, say.\NNICHOLAS: I don't know about
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.61,0:50:25.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yours, because I don't live your life.\NJORDAN: Yes you do. You know perfectly well about mine.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:25.98,0:50:27.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know about the letter.\NNICHOLAS: I do know that you have tenure and that that's
Dialogue: 0,0:50:27.42,0:50:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the major ways that you're able
Dialogue: 0,0:50:29.31,0:50:32.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do this. But I just want people to be
Dialogue: 0,0:50:32.01,0:50:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,aware that trans-and gender-diverse
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.13,0:50:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communities – and especially people of color –
Dialogue: 0,0:50:37.68,0:50:40.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are being targeted and threatened physically.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:40.23,0:50:42.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, free speech is a great
Dialogue: 0,0:50:42.27,0:50:44.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,idea and equality is a great idea,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:44.55,0:50:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we actually can't have those conversations
Dialogue: 0,0:50:45.63,0:50:47.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when people are not even able to be present.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:47.85,0:50:49.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Jordan, let me read this tweet to you,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.74,0:50:50.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'll get you to respond to
Dialogue: 0,0:50:50.67,0:50:52.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it because I think it's instructive of
Dialogue: 0,0:50:52.71,0:50:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the conversation that just took place
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.94,0:50:55.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between the two of you.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:55.92,0:50:56.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Can someone please explain
Dialogue: 0,0:50:56.70,0:50:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Jordan B Peterson that there's a
Dialogue: 0,0:50:58.29,0:50:59.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difference between freedom of speech and
Dialogue: 0,0:50:59.76,0:51:02.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freedom from consequence?" Do you agree
Dialogue: 0,0:51:02.19,0:51:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a difference?\NJORDAN: Well, certainly
Dialogue: 0,0:51:04.08,0:51:05.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a difference. STEVE: And are you
Dialogue: 0,0:51:05.37,0:51:06.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prepared to suffer the consequences that
Dialogue: 0,0:51:06.93,0:51:08.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society may deem you need to suffer
Dialogue: 0,0:51:08.97,0:51:12.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of your views?
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.18,0:51:13.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes, I'm prepared to do that. So –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:13.23,0:51:15.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: What does that entail? \NNICHOLAS: Are you open open to learning?
Dialogue: 0,0:51:15.15,0:51:17.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Well, hang on.\NJORDAN: That's not the question.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:17.13,0:51:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Hang on. That that wasn't the question.\NNICHOLAS: That's true.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:18.39,0:51:21.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Well, so what am I willing to do?
Dialogue: 0,0:51:21.03,0:51:23.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I think that the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal
Dialogue: 0,0:51:23.34,0:51:26.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is probably obligated,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:26.13,0:51:28.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by their own tangled web, to bring me in
Dialogue: 0,0:51:28.74,0:51:30.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,front of it. If they fine me, I won't pay it.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:30.84,0:51:32.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If they put me in jail, I'll go on a hunger strike.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:32.64,0:51:36.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not doing this.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:36.00,0:51:38.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's that. I'm not using the words that
Dialogue: 0,0:51:38.94,0:51:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other people require me to use –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:40.26,0:51:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially if they're made up by radical
Dialogue: 0,0:51:43.17,0:51:44.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,left-wing ideologues.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:44.40,0:51:46.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, if our society comes to some sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:51:46.68,0:51:48.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consensus over the next while about how
Dialogue: 0,0:51:48.54,0:51:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we'll solve the pronoun problem –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:50.88,0:51:53.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's call it – and that becomes part of popular parlance,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:53.82,0:51:55.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it seems to solve the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:55.38,0:51:57.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problem properly without sacrificing the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:57.42,0:51:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,distinction between singular and plural,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:59.10,0:52:01.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and without requiring me to memorize
Dialogue: 0,0:52:01.59,0:52:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an impossible list of an indefinite number of pronouns,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:04.08,0:52:05.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then I would be willing to
Dialogue: 0,0:52:05.61,0:52:08.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reconsider my position. But I'm also
Dialogue: 0,0:52:08.28,0:52:11.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,partly opposed to this because it's been
Dialogue: 0,0:52:11.46,0:52:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made mandatory and has the whole weight
Dialogue: 0,0:52:13.26,0:52:14.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the law behind it. It's like this is a
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.85,0:52:17.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very bad idea. I believe this is a very
Dialogue: 0,0:52:17.10,0:52:19.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bad idea. And I believe that the reason
Dialogue: 0,0:52:19.29,0:52:21.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this has caused so much noise –
Dialogue: 0,0:52:21.33,0:52:22.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tremendous amount of noise – tremendous amount of
Dialogue: 0,0:52:22.74,0:52:24.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,attention on YouTube – is because there
Dialogue: 0,0:52:24.54,0:52:26.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are things that are at stake
Dialogue: 0,0:52:26.70,0:52:28.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this discussion – despite its surface nature –
Dialogue: 0,0:52:28.95,0:52:31.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that strike at the very
Dialogue: 0,0:52:31.11,0:52:33.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,heart of our civilization. That's what I believe.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:33.48,0:52:36.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Do you have tenure? JORDAN: I do.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:36.69,0:52:39.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: So, they can't fire you for this.\NJORDAN: Well, it's
Dialogue: 0,0:52:39.18,0:52:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not all that easy to figure out what
Dialogue: 0,0:52:40.68,0:52:43.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people can and can't do. If I'm –
Dialogue: 0,0:52:43.35,0:52:48.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Certainly, they could fire me if I was – let's say –
Dialogue: 0,0:52:48.51,0:52:50.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if the hate-speech allegations,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:50.55,0:52:52.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so to speak, stuck. I mean, the university – Look.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:52.95,0:52:54.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The university's been quite reasonable
Dialogue: 0,0:52:54.75,0:52:56.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this, especially compared to many universities.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:56.25,0:52:58.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Actually –\NJORDAN: We're going to have a debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:58.14,0:52:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: I was just going to say –\NWe've got a minute left and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:59.34,0:53:00.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do want to give it to Jordan\NJORDAN: Yeah. Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:00.54,0:53:02.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Because the university has not said entirely,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:02.72,0:53:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Shut up. We don't want to hear this anymore."
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.98,0:53:06.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: No. But I went and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:06.45,0:53:08.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talked to the dean on Friday. And I sat
Dialogue: 0,0:53:08.07,0:53:09.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,down with my family and I thought,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:09.69,0:53:11.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Okay. What would be the best way for this
Dialogue: 0,0:53:11.64,0:53:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to go for everyone – for me and and for my
Dialogue: 0,0:53:14.37,0:53:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,students and for the university and for society?"
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.84,0:53:17.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought, "Okay. Well, really
Dialogue: 0,0:53:17.28,0:53:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obviously, there's an issue here –
Dialogue: 0,0:53:19.50,0:53:21.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,several of them – because otherwise, all of this
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.00,0:53:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,noise wouldn't have emerged. So we should
Dialogue: 0,0:53:22.95,0:53:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually have a debate about it."\NSTEVE: And that's happening.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:24.30,0:53:25.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Yes. So I went and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:25.98,0:53:27.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talked to the Dean, David Cameron, who is
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.84,0:53:30.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a very reasonable person and I said,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.75,0:53:32.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Look, well, I think the University of Toronto
Dialogue: 0,0:53:32.61,0:53:33.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should take a leadership position on this.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:33.99,0:53:35.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's issues to be discussed here.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:35.85,0:53:38.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: So who are you debating?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:38.22,0:53:40.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Hah! Well, that remains to be seen.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:40.74,0:53:42.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I haven't seen people flooding out of\Nthe woodwork to debate me so far.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:42.48,0:53:44.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: You have a date, place, and time yet?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:44.25,0:53:46.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: Um, we don't. It'll be on the campus.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.11,0:53:47.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It'll probably be on a
Dialogue: 0,0:53:47.82,0:53:49.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,morning in the next two weeks.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:49.83,0:53:52.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: Okay. You let me know we'll tweet it out there.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:52.17,0:53:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,JORDAN: I will let you know. Absolutely.\NSTEVE: Okay. That's our time
Dialogue: 0,0:53:54.51,0:53:56.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm afraid, everybody. I do want to thank
Dialogue: 0,0:53:56.22,0:53:57.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody for coming in tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:57.72,0:53:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I hope you found it was worth your while.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:59.10,0:54:01.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We certainly found it, I think, a very useful exercise.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:01.65,0:54:04.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Can I [inaudible] resources for people?\NSTEVE: Sorry?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:04.53,0:54:06.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: People who just watched this program may be really
Dialogue: 0,0:54:06.45,0:54:09.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in need of something.\NSTEVE: Sure. You've got a website?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:09.06,0:54:10.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would really encourage people to go to
Dialogue: 0,0:54:10.11,0:54:12.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transformingjustice.ca. It's a
Dialogue: 0,0:54:12.27,0:54:14.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,current research initiative that will
Dialogue: 0,0:54:14.73,0:54:16.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appeal to anyone with any interest in
Dialogue: 0,0:54:16.74,0:54:18.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,research and learning.\NSTEVE: Say it again.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:18.09,0:54:20.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BOTH: transformingjustice.ca.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:20.31,0:54:21.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,STEVE: We are happy to put that out there.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:21.54,0:54:23.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NICHOLAS: Thank you.\NSTEVE: Theryn Meyer, the trans pundit and
Dialogue: 0,0:54:23.61,0:54:25.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Youtuber in Vancouver; Kyle Kirkup,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:25.35,0:54:26.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the professor of law at the University of Ottawa;
Dialogue: 0,0:54:26.85,0:54:28.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we thank both of you for being outside
Dialogue: 0,0:54:28.95,0:54:30.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our studio but part of our broadcast tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:30.54,0:54:32.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jordan Peterson of the U of T;
Dialogue: 0,0:54:32.31,0:54:35.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nick Matte, from the U of T; Mary Rogan,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:35.37,0:54:37.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can read more about this in her piece,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:37.02,0:54:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Growing Up Trans," in the October issue
Dialogue: 0,0:54:38.64,0:54:40.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Walrus magazine, on
Dialogue: 0,0:54:40.89,0:54:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,better bookstore and corner-store stands
Dialogue: 0,0:54:43.17,0:54:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everywhere. Thanks so much, everybody.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:45.74,0:54:50.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,GUESTS: Thank you.\NNARRATOR: Help TVO create a better
Dialogue: 0,0:54:50.55,0:54:52.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,world through the power of learning.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.34,0:54:59.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Visit tvo.org and make a tax-deductible donation today.