1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,440 STEVE PAIKIN: What's in a name? Potentially, a great deal. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,020 University of Toronto psychology 3 00:00:06,020 --> 00:00:08,119 professor, Jordan Peterson, has a fight on 4 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,219 his hands after objecting to proposed 5 00:00:10,219 --> 00:00:12,259 legislation that he says would violate 6 00:00:12,259 --> 00:00:14,539 his freedom of speech by forcing him to 7 00:00:14,539 --> 00:00:17,000 address transgendered people using the 8 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,400 pronouns of their choosing. Joining us 9 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:20,839 now to better understand the issue and 10 00:00:20,839 --> 00:00:24,740 debate what's at stake: in Vancouver, British Columbia, 11 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:27,109 Theryn Meyer, transgender pundit and 12 00:00:27,109 --> 00:00:29,509 YouTuber. In the nation's capital, 13 00:00:29,509 --> 00:00:31,579 Kyle Kirkup, professor of law at the 14 00:00:31,579 --> 00:00:34,039 University of Ottawa. And here in studio, 15 00:00:34,039 --> 00:00:35,780 the aforementioned Jordan Peterson, 16 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:37,850 professor of psychology, University of Toronto. 17 00:00:37,850 --> 00:00:40,100 Nicholas Matte, lecturer, 18 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:42,949 transgender studies at U of T. 19 00:00:42,949 --> 00:00:45,289 And Mary Rogan, whose article entitled, 20 00:00:45,289 --> 00:00:47,539 "Growing Up Trans" is featured in the October issue 21 00:00:47,539 --> 00:00:50,210 of the Walrus magazine. Good to have you 22 00:00:50,210 --> 00:00:51,710 three here and our two friends in 23 00:00:51,710 --> 00:00:53,120 points beyond. We appreciate everybody 24 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,640 being on the program for what is, I think, 25 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,140 one of the hottest topics in the country 26 00:00:57,140 --> 00:00:58,879 today, Professor Peterson – and it's all 27 00:00:58,879 --> 00:01:02,000 because of you. And I think before we go 28 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,949 any further with our conversation here, 29 00:01:03,949 --> 00:01:06,770 I want to give people a sense of how hot 30 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:09,860 this has got starting on the downtown 31 00:01:09,860 --> 00:01:11,450 campus of the University of Toronto. 32 00:01:11,450 --> 00:01:14,350 Sheldon if you would, roll it. 33 00:01:14,350 --> 00:01:18,360 [audience members chanting] JORDAN PETERSON: Okay. 34 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,510 JORDAN: Well as you can see, the opponents of 35 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:26,930 free speech are capable of making a lot of 36 00:01:26,930 --> 00:01:30,240 inarticulate noise. Free speech is the 37 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,610 mechanism by which we keep our society functioning. 38 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:37,790 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hear, hear. AUDIENCE MEMBER: And by doing this, you're imposing – 39 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:43,070 Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait! No! No! No! Not cool. Not cool. 40 00:01:43,070 --> 00:01:45,210 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm going to post this online – JORDAN: That's fine. 41 00:01:45,210 --> 00:01:47,330 AUDIENCE MEMBER: – that you would like people to not – to be more 42 00:01:47,330 --> 00:01:50,110 accommodating of trans people and people of color at your events in the future. 43 00:01:50,110 --> 00:01:53,510 JORDAN: I would like there to be no violence. 44 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:56,160 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am a person of color. I am a person of color and I felt very accommodated here. 45 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,470 AUDIENCE MEMBER: There have been multiple reported instances of trans people 46 00:01:58,470 --> 00:02:04,300 killing themselves because they are not being integrated into society. 47 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:06,119 AUDIENCE MEMBER: If it wasn't for this law, 48 00:02:06,119 --> 00:02:08,529 and I asked you to refer to me with they/them pronouns, would you? 49 00:02:08,529 --> 00:02:10,199 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why do you have the authority to determine 50 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:12,690 whether or not an individual is worthy 51 00:02:12,690 --> 00:02:15,930 of you using their pronouns? Like, if I 52 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:17,400 asked you, "Would you please use they/them 53 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,400 pronouns for me?" what – 54 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,410 JORDAN: It would it would depend on what I thought of your motivation. 55 00:02:21,410 --> 00:02:23,720 AUDIENCE MEMBER: What hoops do you want us to jump through? 56 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,530 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Those are my pronouns. 57 00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:26,520 STEVE: Okay, with indulgence 58 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:27,840 of everybody else on the program, 59 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,340 I'm going to start with Professor Peterson off 60 00:02:29,340 --> 00:02:31,380 the top here for a while because, as I 61 00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:34,050 suggested, you thought long and hard 62 00:02:34,050 --> 00:02:37,200 about this. You posted a few things up to 63 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,020 YouTube because you had been thinking 64 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:42,570 long and hard about it. One-and-a-half 65 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:45,660 million hits later, Jordan – one and a half 66 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:48,570 million hits later – this has become a 67 00:02:48,570 --> 00:02:50,910 huge issue. So let's start there. Why did 68 00:02:50,910 --> 00:02:54,060 you post those views to YouTube in the first place? 69 00:02:54,060 --> 00:02:57,180 JORDAN: Well, there's proximate and distal reasons. 70 00:02:57,180 --> 00:02:58,890 The proximate reasons were 71 00:02:58,890 --> 00:03:00,720 because I received some correspondence 72 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,890 from clients of mine who had 73 00:03:04,890 --> 00:03:09,030 been, I would say, persecuted in a variety 74 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:10,860 of ways by people who were politically correct. 75 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:13,890 And they sent me some 76 00:03:13,890 --> 00:03:16,410 documentation about Bill C16 and the 77 00:03:16,410 --> 00:03:18,150 associated policy statements on the 78 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:19,739 Ontario Human Rights Commission, which I 79 00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:24,200 read and was not very happy about. 80 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,760 And also because the University of Toronto 81 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,709 decided to make anti-racism and 82 00:03:28,709 --> 00:03:30,930 anti-bias training – so-called anti-racism and 83 00:03:30,930 --> 00:03:33,600 anti-bias training – mandatory, which I 84 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,530 regarded as an inappropriate incursion into the domain of political 85 00:03:37,530 --> 00:03:39,150 opinion by the university administration. 86 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:41,700 STEVE: Have you taken that training yet? JORDAN: No, and 87 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:43,800 I don't have to yet. It's the HR 88 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,600 department personnel that have to take it. 89 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,280 STEVE: If they decide that you have to, will you? 90 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,620 JORDAN: No way. Not a chance. 91 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:50,850 STEVE: Okay. And what's the other – You referred to 92 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:52,350 persecution that friends or clients of 93 00:03:52,350 --> 00:03:55,670 yours had experienced. Such as? JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. Well 94 00:03:55,670 --> 00:03:58,410 there are lots of places now where the 95 00:03:58,410 --> 00:03:59,850 workplace has become, I would say, 96 00:03:59,850 --> 00:04:01,890 excessively politicized. And so, people 97 00:04:01,890 --> 00:04:03,780 who have viewpoints – And this also 98 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:06,180 involves – includes, I would say, fairly 99 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:08,490 radical leftist viewpoints. People don't 100 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:11,490 feel comfortable at all in being 101 00:04:11,490 --> 00:04:12,870 able to use the language of their choice 102 00:04:12,870 --> 00:04:15,270 or to have even opinions about a variety 103 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:18,988 of different things. And so I've had 104 00:04:18,988 --> 00:04:20,959 three clients who, I would say, have been 105 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:26,670 we'll say "harassed," I suppose, is the right 106 00:04:26,670 --> 00:04:27,450 way of putting it. 107 00:04:27,450 --> 00:04:29,430 STEVE: In social media or otherwise? JORDAN: No, at work. At work. 108 00:04:29,430 --> 00:04:32,100 STEVE: At work. JORDAN: At work by people who 109 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:34,530 don't like their political opinions essentially. 110 00:04:34,530 --> 00:04:37,820 STEVE: And the opinions were what? 111 00:04:37,820 --> 00:04:39,960 JORDAN: Well, I can't tell you too much about it, 112 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,030 actually, because of issues – 113 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:44,480 fundamental issues of confidentiality. STEVE: All right. Give us – 114 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,320 Essentially, I guess what I'm asking is 115 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,510 to lay the case out. JORDAN: Well, one of – STEVE: What is it 116 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:50,450 you find offensive about this legislation? 117 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:51,600 JORDAN: Well, fundamentally, there 118 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,070 were two things that really bothered me, 119 00:04:53,070 --> 00:04:54,240 although there have been other things 120 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,340 I've thought about since. One was that I 121 00:04:56,340 --> 00:04:59,250 was being asked, as everyone is, to use a 122 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:01,020 certain set of words that I think are 123 00:05:01,020 --> 00:05:02,490 the constructions of people who have a 124 00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:04,170 political ideology that I don't believe 125 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:06,290 in and that I also regard as dangerous. 126 00:05:06,290 --> 00:05:08,320 STEVE: What are those words? JORDAN: Those are 127 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:09,930 the made-up words that 128 00:05:09,930 --> 00:05:13,200 people now describe as gender-neutral. 129 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,650 And so, to me, they're 130 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:18,930 an attempt to control language 131 00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:22,320 and in a direction that isn't happening organically, 132 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,730 it's not happening naturally, 133 00:05:23,730 --> 00:05:25,770 people aren't picking up these words in 134 00:05:25,770 --> 00:05:27,240 the typical way that new words are 135 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,480 picked up, but by force and by fiat. 136 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,110 And I would say by force because there's 137 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:33,810 legislative power behind them. STEVE: So just so we're [clear] – 138 00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:36,270 JORDAN: And I don't like these made-up words – ze, and zer and that 139 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:38,040 sort of thing. STEVE: Okay. What about the – They're not 140 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,000 all made up – quote-unquote made-up words. 141 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,820 JORDAN: Yeah. STEVE: For example, "they" is one of them – 142 00:05:41,820 --> 00:05:43,380 to speak to an individual as they. 143 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:45,210 JORDAN: Yes, right. But we can't dispense with 144 00:05:45,210 --> 00:05:46,800 the distinction between singular and plural. 145 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,900 I mean, I know that the advocates of that 146 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:50,550 particular approach say that "they" has 147 00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:52,350 been used forever as a singular, and 148 00:05:52,350 --> 00:05:54,509 that's actually not correct. It's used as 149 00:05:54,509 --> 00:05:55,919 a singular in very exceptional 150 00:05:55,919 --> 00:05:58,410 circumstances. Like, "If your child wishes 151 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:00,210 to bring a book to school, they're 152 00:06:00,210 --> 00:06:02,610 welcome to do so." But "they" – STEVE: That's just 153 00:06:02,610 --> 00:06:05,729 grammatically incorrect. JORDAN: Well, it is also. There's some 154 00:06:05,729 --> 00:06:07,500 debate about that because it is – "they" is 155 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:09,750 used like that sometimes. But it's never 156 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:11,789 been used as a singular replacement 157 00:06:11,789 --> 00:06:14,190 for he or she. STEVE: All right. JORDAN: And so it's not a 158 00:06:14,190 --> 00:06:16,440 tenable solution. And that's the best of 159 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,000 the solutions. STEVE: So, we understand your 160 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,710 views and where you're coming from. 161 00:06:19,710 --> 00:06:22,440 You've decided to lay these views out in 162 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,010 some YouTube discourses. JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: You put them up. 163 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:27,419 The response has been overwhelming. 164 00:06:27,419 --> 00:06:29,610 JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: Did you anticipate that you would get 165 00:06:29,610 --> 00:06:31,380 this kind of feedback? JORDAN: No, there was no 166 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:33,330 way of anticipating this. And I think – You 167 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:34,680 mentioned in the intro that 168 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,419 this is a consequence of what I've done. 169 00:06:36,419 --> 00:06:38,639 And I don't think that's true. It's a 170 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:40,949 consequence of the fact – I thought 171 00:06:40,949 --> 00:06:42,270 about it, and I think the right metaphor 172 00:06:42,270 --> 00:06:44,970 is that there's a large forest, 173 00:06:44,970 --> 00:06:47,669 and it's been a hot, dry summer, or maybe 174 00:06:47,669 --> 00:06:49,650 a drought, and there's plenty of dead 175 00:06:49,650 --> 00:06:52,050 wood gathered, and I lit a spark. And you 176 00:06:52,050 --> 00:06:54,180 can't blame the forest fire on the spark. 177 00:06:54,180 --> 00:06:57,570 It's just not possible for 178 00:06:57,570 --> 00:06:59,340 someone to put up a YouTube video and 179 00:06:59,340 --> 00:07:02,039 cause this kind of brouhaha without all 180 00:07:02,039 --> 00:07:03,479 of the groundwork already being laid. 181 00:07:03,479 --> 00:07:05,250 STEVE: Fair enough. There is clearly – 182 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:08,099 There is out there an appetite 183 00:07:08,099 --> 00:07:10,199 against political correctness, which is 184 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:11,699 what you have described this as. In fact, 185 00:07:11,699 --> 00:07:13,560 your YouTube video is called 186 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,479 "Professor Against Political Correctness." JORDAN: Mm-hmm. STEVE: But let's 187 00:07:15,479 --> 00:07:16,620 make sure we're all speaking the same 188 00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:19,010 language here. You would define that how? 189 00:07:19,010 --> 00:07:21,720 Political correctness? JORDAN: Well, I think it's 190 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,909 a particular kind of ideological game. And I 191 00:07:23,909 --> 00:07:25,860 think the outcome is twofold. 192 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:27,539 It's to make the player feel morally superior, 193 00:07:27,539 --> 00:07:31,680 and also to take rather serious ax swings 194 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,169 at the foundation of society. 195 00:07:34,169 --> 00:07:36,840 And so, the game is identify a domain of 196 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,419 human endeavor, note that there's a 197 00:07:39,419 --> 00:07:41,760 distribution of success – some people are 198 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,139 doing comparatively better and some 199 00:07:43,139 --> 00:07:44,659 people are doing comparatively worse – 200 00:07:44,659 --> 00:07:47,389 define those doing worse as victims, 201 00:07:47,389 --> 00:07:49,380 define those doing better as 202 00:07:49,380 --> 00:07:52,139 perpetrators, identify with the victims, 203 00:07:52,139 --> 00:07:55,260 have yourself a set of enemies handy to 204 00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:57,599 vent your resentment on, feel good about 205 00:07:57,599 --> 00:07:59,099 it even though it didn't really require 206 00:07:59,099 --> 00:08:02,639 any work on your part, and then endlessly repeat. 207 00:08:02,639 --> 00:08:04,050 And that's why – I've seen that happening 208 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:05,939 on campuses, in particular, for the last 30 years. 209 00:08:05,939 --> 00:08:08,189 STEVE: In your YouTube talk, you 210 00:08:08,189 --> 00:08:10,740 describe those who oppose you on this 211 00:08:10,740 --> 00:08:13,259 issue as "resentful and uninformed." 212 00:08:13,259 --> 00:08:14,699 JORDAN: Yes. STEVE: Tell me why you think that's accurate. 213 00:08:14,699 --> 00:08:18,029 JORDAN: Well, I worked for the NDP when 214 00:08:18,029 --> 00:08:19,800 I was a kid – STEVE: Okay. JORDAN: From the time I 215 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,689 was 14 to the time I was 18. 216 00:08:21,689 --> 00:08:23,639 I worked with Rachel Notley's father and her mother, 217 00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:26,550 and knew them very well. And I 218 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:28,259 actually found them very admirable 219 00:08:28,259 --> 00:08:29,969 people, as well as the other people 220 00:08:29,969 --> 00:08:31,499 on the socialist end of the 221 00:08:31,499 --> 00:08:33,000 distribution who were genuinely working 222 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,159 for the rights of working-class 223 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,169 people – coming out of that Saskatchewan 224 00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:38,640 tradition that established health care 225 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,740 and pension and all of that. But I noted, 226 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:42,029 at the same time, that the party 227 00:08:42,029 --> 00:08:44,370 functionaries, let's say, weren't that 228 00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:45,810 sort of person at all. They didn't really 229 00:08:45,810 --> 00:08:47,250 like the working class. They weren't 230 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:48,390 standing up for them. And I couldn't 231 00:08:48,390 --> 00:08:50,519 quite put my finger on it until I read 232 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:52,410 George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier," 233 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:54,540 which is a brilliant book and which was 234 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:56,699 written for the Left Book Club in the UK. 235 00:08:56,699 --> 00:08:59,010 And he was talking about the failures of 236 00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:01,170 socialism in the United Kingdom, 237 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:02,820 and then discussed intellectual 238 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:05,010 socialists of the type who didn't 239 00:09:05,010 --> 00:09:08,010 exactly like the poor – STEVE: Okay. JORDAN: They just hated the rich. 240 00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:11,040 STEVE: "Resentful and uninformed," though? 241 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,560 JORDAN: Yes. Well, the resentful part is the 242 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:16,380 willingness to pull down any structure 243 00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:18,570 that's hierarchical because of 244 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:20,550 resentment about not being on the top. 245 00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:24,140 And uninformed is, well, it's the 246 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:26,279 consistent attempt to force every 247 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:29,459 political issue into a single – 248 00:09:29,459 --> 00:09:31,260 into the domain encompassed and viewed 249 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:33,480 through this single lens. STEVE: Jordan, let's do 250 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:34,589 one more question here, and then we'll 251 00:09:34,589 --> 00:09:36,060 get everybody else into the conversation. 252 00:09:36,060 --> 00:09:38,250 You know, of course, that since this story broke, 253 00:09:38,250 --> 00:09:40,050 you've been called a lot of things – 254 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:43,769 JORDAN: Yep. STEVE: – one of which is a "transphobe." JORDAN: Yeah. 255 00:09:43,769 --> 00:09:47,310 STEVE: Some people have accused you of using 256 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:49,079 the free-speech issue to mask what's 257 00:09:49,079 --> 00:09:50,880 really going on here, which is an attempt 258 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,100 to deprive other people of what they 259 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:55,500 believe are their legitimate rights. JORDAN: Well, I can – 260 00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:56,850 STEVE: And I want to give you the opportunity to speak 261 00:09:56,850 --> 00:09:58,350 to whether or not you are a transphobe. 262 00:09:58,350 --> 00:10:00,000 JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that 263 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,170 I've received more letters from 264 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:03,300 transsexual people supporting me than 265 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,699 opposing me. And I never said anything, 266 00:10:05,699 --> 00:10:07,680 really, about transsexual people, 267 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:09,089 about their existence, although that was the 268 00:10:09,089 --> 00:10:10,680 first thing that I was accused of doing. 269 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:13,110 I didn't say that transsexual people 270 00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:16,410 didn't exist. I said that gender identity, gender expression, 271 00:10:16,410 --> 00:10:18,390 and biological sex do not vary 272 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:21,270 independently, which they don't. And so, 273 00:10:21,270 --> 00:10:23,610 this issue is, in some sense, 274 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:26,160 only peripherally about about transsexual issues. 275 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,560 It's more essentially about 276 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,350 gender issues. And, then on top of that – 277 00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:33,180 and I think it's the biggest issue – 278 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:35,670 is that it's a free speech issue. So – STEVE: Okay. 279 00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:38,130 Let us continue to explore all of those 280 00:10:38,130 --> 00:10:41,370 issues that you have just raised and – 281 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:42,510 Why don't we do this? Let's take a moment. 282 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:43,860 We're gonna explain a few basic things here. 283 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:45,750 The issue of so-called 284 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:47,250 non-traditional pronouns goes together 285 00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:49,170 with non-traditional gender identities. 286 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:52,560 New York City, for example, recognizes 31 287 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:54,990 such gender expressions. In other words, 288 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:57,590 besides "man" and "woman," there are 29 other 289 00:10:57,590 --> 00:11:00,540 gender expressions. For example, "pangender," 290 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:03,180 "queer gender," "gender fluid," "crossdresser," 291 00:11:03,180 --> 00:11:05,730 "bi-gendered," "gender blender," and the list goes on. 292 00:11:05,730 --> 00:11:07,530 And Nicholas, this is where I 293 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:08,370 want to bring you into the discussion 294 00:11:08,370 --> 00:11:11,130 because you teach this. You teach trans studies. 295 00:11:11,130 --> 00:11:13,440 So, if you would, give us a brief 296 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,040 primer on so many gender identities that, 297 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,040 in your view, require non-traditional pronouns. 298 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,690 NICHOLAS MATTE: Basically, it's not correct that 299 00:11:24,690 --> 00:11:26,460 there is such a thing as biological sex. 300 00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:28,350 And I'm a historian of medicine. 301 00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:30,510 I can unpack that for you at great length if 302 00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:32,280 you want. But in the interest of time, 303 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,530 I won't. So that's a very popular misconception. 304 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:36,750 So, essentially, in my 305 00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:38,640 transgender studies classes, what we're 306 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,500 doing is looking at actual research and 307 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:43,440 identifying ways that current social 308 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,750 issues related to trans people or things 309 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,550 that are associated with trans, such as 310 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:50,370 free-speech arguments and claims, 311 00:11:50,370 --> 00:11:52,350 how that connects to the way that people are thinking, 312 00:11:52,350 --> 00:11:54,010 the way that research has been 313 00:11:54,010 --> 00:11:55,740 framed, the histories have been framed. STEVE: Give us some of 314 00:11:55,740 --> 00:11:57,270 the other pronouns that one would hear – typically. 315 00:11:57,270 --> 00:11:59,340 NICHOLAS: I don't focus on pronouns 316 00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:00,990 because pronouns are actually part of 317 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:03,300 a cisnormative culture. So what we do is learn about – 318 00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:04,860 STEVE: I'm gonna stop you right there. 319 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:06,660 NICHOLAS: Yes, I was just about to explain. STEVE: Good. 320 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:07,980 NICHOLAS: So, we don't start from a cisnormative 321 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:09,750 perspective because that can't actually 322 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:11,880 go very far. STEVE: What does cisnormative mean? 323 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,590 NICHOLAS: So, I'm gonna start us there. 324 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:17,640 Cisnormative is basically the very popular idea and 325 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,380 assumption that most people probably have – 326 00:12:19,380 --> 00:12:21,390 and definitely that our structures convey – 327 00:12:21,390 --> 00:12:23,460 that there is such a thing as 328 00:12:23,460 --> 00:12:25,440 male and female, that they connect to 329 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,110 being a girl or a boy or a man or a woman, 330 00:12:28,110 --> 00:12:30,270 and then sometimes that will also 331 00:12:30,270 --> 00:12:32,160 recognize intersex or trans people or 332 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,720 transsexual people, as you mentioned, 333 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,680 because that's – It's sometimes also referred 334 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,480 to as a gender binary. So, anything that 335 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,240 fits within a gender binary can work 336 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,370 within cisnormativity. STEVE: Okay. 337 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:46,160 NICHOLAS: But cisnormativity is basically that everyone 338 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,570 assumes that there is male and female, 339 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:51,060 and so very little is actually looked at 340 00:12:51,060 --> 00:12:53,540 to understand what's actually the case. 341 00:12:53,540 --> 00:12:56,150 And scientists have been doing this for at least over 50 years. 342 00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:59,240 STEVE: Because your view would be it's much more complicated than that. 343 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,720 NICHOLAS: Right. It's not my view, 344 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,040 I just know that, for over 50 years, 345 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:03,600 scientists have shown that that's not true. 346 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,880 And yet, our social systems haven't 347 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,410 been able to find a way to address 348 00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:10,850 the level of complexity that people actually experience. 349 00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:12,730 JORDAN: At what point can I step in, Steve? 350 00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:13,890 STEVE: Stand by for a second – JORDAN: Okay. 351 00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:16,590 STEVE: – because I want to let everybody else get in first, and then we'll get you in. 352 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:18,010 NICHOLAS: And I didn't interrupt you either, so – 353 00:13:18,010 --> 00:13:19,810 STEVE: Mary, how prevalent is transgenderism in our world? 354 00:13:19,810 --> 00:13:22,110 MARY ROGAN: I don't think I can – 355 00:13:22,110 --> 00:13:23,550 I don't think I can answer that question. 356 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:26,610 I think that I would agree with Nicolas that 357 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:29,010 there is some discrepancy on these 358 00:13:29,010 --> 00:13:30,480 numbers and there is some variance on 359 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:36,060 the numbers. I guess I'm curious 360 00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:38,760 as to why we need need to put a 361 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,190 number on this. Because that's come up. 362 00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:47,010 I listened to Jordan's video, 363 00:13:47,010 --> 00:13:49,200 and that was something that was mentioned. 364 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,510 This is, statistically – 365 00:13:51,510 --> 00:13:53,460 there are so few intersex people as to be – 366 00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:55,390 it's insignificant. 367 00:13:55,390 --> 00:13:57,500 STEVE: Well, I think there's a reasonable curiosity 368 00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:59,630 as to whether or not we're talking about half the population 369 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:02,220 or less than 1% of the population. That's all. 370 00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:04,140 MARY: No, I understand that. I guess what I'm 371 00:14:04,140 --> 00:14:07,110 saying is it seems that there's a focus 372 00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:10,200 on that in terms of what we know now. 373 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,060 And I think what Nicholas is trying to try 374 00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:13,170 to say – and I don't want to 375 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:16,500 presume too much – I think that 376 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,180 that number is going to be something that 377 00:14:18,180 --> 00:14:20,310 evolves as we evolve and our language 378 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:22,020 evolves and we give people the room to 379 00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:23,280 come forward and express who they are. 380 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,230 STEVE: Okay. Let me – As part of that expression 381 00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:28,170 and evolution of this issue, the use of 382 00:14:28,170 --> 00:14:31,010 non-traditional pronouns, where are you on that? 383 00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:33,360 MARY: I think people should be able to 384 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,880 say how they want to be addressed. 385 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,640 I do believe that. In my own experience in 386 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,200 writing the Walrus piece, 387 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,170 I began at one place and ended at another. 388 00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:45,560 And I'll let everyone pay their $7 to find out how. 389 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,120 STEVE: [chuckles] MARY: They can buy the magazine. 390 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:48,960 But I think that, for me, 391 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,440 identifying as male at a very late 392 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,990 stage in my life, I don't have – 393 00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:58,350 I didn't have a lot of attachment to the pronoun "she." 394 00:14:58,350 --> 00:14:59,840 You could have said "giraffe." 395 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,250 I had found a way at a very early age not to 396 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:06,110 even hear that word. It meant nothing to me. 397 00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:08,270 So I didn't dive into the pronoun "he." 398 00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:10,380 STEVE: So, if I were going to refer to you, 399 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:12,930 though, in the third person – MARY: "They." STEVE: – you would want me to call you "they." 400 00:15:12,930 --> 00:15:16,030 MARY: Yes. STEVE: Okay. Because that encapsulates what? 401 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:19,400 MARY: I think it reflects where I am right now. 402 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,076 Because of my lived experience – 403 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:24,273 five decades as being identified – 404 00:15:24,273 --> 00:15:26,300 certainly by the world – as female – 405 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:28,450 some of the time, not all 406 00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:29,840 of the time – my lived experience was 407 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,830 largely female, and I personally am not 408 00:15:33,830 --> 00:15:37,230 sort of ready to jump in wholly into 409 00:15:37,230 --> 00:15:39,450 having people call me "he." 410 00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:42,240 But I'm certainly far enough along 411 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,250 in terms of how I feel internally 412 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:45,890 that I don't want to be called "she." 413 00:15:45,890 --> 00:15:48,360 STEVE: Understood. Let's go to British Columbia. 414 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,540 Theryn, I want you to help us understand 415 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:53,580 for our viewers who don't know you 416 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:55,350 and don't know your work, 417 00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:59,170 I would like you to describe yourself. 418 00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:02,440 THERYN: Well, I make political commentary – 419 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,400 mostly on YouTube. 420 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,470 And I mostly focus on basically countering – 421 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:13,680 with my own personal perspectives – 422 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,460 countering what I consider to be 423 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:20,970 the kind of hegemony surrounding – 424 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:24,300 the political hegemony – surrounding trans politics, 425 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:27,290 and what I consider to be 426 00:16:27,290 --> 00:16:33,080 quite ridiculous opinions and demands 427 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,360 coming from what has come to be known as 428 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,690 kind of the political trans lobbying. 429 00:16:39,690 --> 00:16:41,460 STEVE: I'm not as good at this issue 430 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:42,960 as I should be, so I'm going to look to you 431 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,610 to help me use the right words here 432 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:48,830 to describe how you were born 433 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:51,740 and what you see yourself as now. 434 00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:56,570 So is it accurate to say you're a trans woman? 435 00:16:56,570 --> 00:16:59,330 THERYN: Yes I'm, I'm – Oh [frustration]. 436 00:16:59,330 --> 00:17:00,659 I wish I would have lived in a world 437 00:17:00,659 --> 00:17:01,960 where that was just obvious 438 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:02,959 and I don't have to explain that to people. 439 00:17:02,959 --> 00:17:04,900 But, apparently, I do. 440 00:17:05,940 --> 00:17:08,039 I mean, "Yes, I'm just a woman." 441 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:09,539 STEVE: Is this to say 442 00:17:09,539 --> 00:17:13,029 you were born male but now are female? 443 00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:16,370 THERYN: Yes. I transitioned from male to female. And, yeah. 444 00:17:16,370 --> 00:17:19,670 STEVE: In which case, do I refer to you – 445 00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:21,560 I'm gonna ask you the same question 446 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,173 I asked Mary, which is 447 00:17:23,173 --> 00:17:24,563 do I refer to you as her or she now? 448 00:17:24,563 --> 00:17:25,566 THERYN: Yes, you do. 449 00:17:25,566 --> 00:17:27,569 STEVE: I do. Okay. 450 00:17:27,569 --> 00:17:29,730 And how do you relate to the experiences 451 00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:31,980 that we have heard arise during this 452 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:34,890 debate where gender identities and 453 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:39,750 pronouns are up for grabs, if you like? 454 00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:47,299 I am very skeptical of the ideology 455 00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:50,080 surrounding gender identity. 456 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,510 I don't believe there are 457 00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:56,000 29-plus gender identities or genders. 458 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,480 I believe there's male and female and 459 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,770 then there's somewhere in between and 460 00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:03,150 most people fall along that. And just people 461 00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:05,800 who are in-between does not constitute a new gender. 462 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,990 There are two genders – period. 463 00:18:07,990 --> 00:18:12,410 And that is, biologically, a sound argument to make. 464 00:18:12,410 --> 00:18:16,630 Just because the argument that was made 465 00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:18,750 earlier in the show is that – 466 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:20,630 It wasn't an argument, but a claim – 467 00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:23,520 that there is no such thing as biological sex. 468 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,750 Well, that's simply not true. 469 00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:26,909 It is true that there are 470 00:18:26,909 --> 00:18:29,610 multiple characteristics and there are 471 00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:32,880 multiple factors that go into determining sex, 472 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,120 and that sex is not on-off switch – 473 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:36,880 that there is a spectrum to it, 474 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,920 just like with most things in nature. 475 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,610 Most things aren't an on-off switch. 476 00:18:41,610 --> 00:18:44,290 Most things develop on a spectrum. 477 00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:47,880 But for the most part, 478 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,580 the vast majority of people fall 479 00:18:50,580 --> 00:18:54,210 either on the male side or on the female side. 480 00:18:54,210 --> 00:18:56,280 And yes, it's true that scientists – 481 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,460 that doctors have – and researchers – have been 482 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:01,110 finding more and more factors that go into, 483 00:19:01,110 --> 00:19:04,350 not only determining genetic sex, 484 00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:08,380 but determining the expression of those genes. 485 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:14,900 So it's truly a fascinating, complex field of study. 486 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:16,300 But that does not mean that there is 487 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,600 no such thing as biological sex. STEVE: Okay. 488 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,520 THERYN: When it comes to the issue of pronouns, 489 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,930 would you like me to give you my opinion on it? 490 00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:26,550 STEVE: Yeah, briefly if you would because 491 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:28,000 Kyle has been the most patient person in 492 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,800 the world waiting for his chance to get in. 493 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,420 So, yes, you finish your statement and 494 00:19:31,420 --> 00:19:33,500 then I'm gonna get to Kyle. 495 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:35,020 THERYN: Okay. My apologies. 496 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:36,730 Well, firstly, I have a lot of sympathy 497 00:19:36,730 --> 00:19:39,250 for people who want to be referred to 498 00:19:39,250 --> 00:19:41,890 by their pronouns. Obviously, as a trans woman, 499 00:19:41,890 --> 00:19:45,040 I know what it feels like to be 500 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,910 misgendered and whatnot. 501 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:50,830 And most people are reasonable in the sense that 502 00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:52,600 they would be reasonable enough 503 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,570 to accommodate trans people and 504 00:19:56,570 --> 00:20:00,100 their preferred pronouns. 505 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,100 And I'm sure – I mean, I would hope that 506 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:04,490 if I were a student of Dr. Peterson, 507 00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:06,730 that he would refer to me as "she" 508 00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:09,040 and wouldn't have a problem with that. 509 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,810 But at the end of the day, 510 00:20:10,810 --> 00:20:13,720 our personal-pronoun preference, it still is a preference 511 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,630 for what language other people use. 512 00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:18,910 And at the end of the day, I don't have 513 00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:22,160 ultimate control over what Dr. Peterson – 514 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,030 what the language he chooses to use or 515 00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:24,940 anybody else for that matter. 516 00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:27,220 That's up to them. And the problem arises – 517 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:28,700 STEVE: Okay. Let me find out then. 518 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,770 Let me find out. If she were a student of yours, what would you call her? 519 00:20:31,770 --> 00:20:33,570 JORDAN: "She." STEVE: You would. Okay. 520 00:20:33,570 --> 00:20:36,490 We've established that. Theryn, stand by 521 00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:39,220 for a second now. I do want – [chuckles] 522 00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:41,230 Thank you for your patience, Professor Kirkup. 523 00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:43,960 And I want to bring you in now because, 524 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,700 as I suggested earlier, in New York City, 525 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:48,590 they have identified 31 gender identities. 526 00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:50,260 And apparently the law down 527 00:20:50,260 --> 00:20:51,880 there suggests that if businesses don't 528 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,100 accommodate an individual's chosen 529 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,050 gender identity, there is the risk of 530 00:20:56,050 --> 00:20:59,080 a six-figure fine under the rules 531 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,540 of the city's Commissioner of Human Rights. 532 00:21:01,540 --> 00:21:03,160 We have, in the province of Ontario 533 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,040 our own Ontario Human Rights Commission, 534 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,640 and I wonder how similar our 535 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,340 legislation is here on this issue 536 00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:13,730 compared to what they have in New York City. 537 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:15,540 KYLE: So, where I would start the discussion 538 00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:17,490 is to actually point out that 539 00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:19,389 even though we're talking about adding 540 00:21:19,389 --> 00:21:21,489 gender identity and gender expression to 541 00:21:21,489 --> 00:21:23,589 the Canadian Human Rights Act and 542 00:21:23,589 --> 00:21:25,570 provisions of the Criminal Code 543 00:21:25,570 --> 00:21:27,279 this is a long-standing practice in Canadian 544 00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:28,989 human-rights jurisprudence. You can go 545 00:21:28,989 --> 00:21:31,199 back into the late 1990s. And the cases 546 00:21:31,199 --> 00:21:33,639 that we're seeing in the tribunals are 547 00:21:33,639 --> 00:21:37,450 not the kind of extreme examples of 548 00:21:37,450 --> 00:21:38,889 a number of different kinds of gender pronouns. 549 00:21:38,889 --> 00:21:40,959 What we're seeing is really 550 00:21:40,959 --> 00:21:43,239 more basic human rights questions. 551 00:21:43,239 --> 00:21:45,909 So, questions like are you required 552 00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:47,799 to undergo surgery in order to have 553 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,639 an identity document that properly captures 554 00:21:51,639 --> 00:21:52,899 who you are as a person? 555 00:21:52,899 --> 00:21:55,739 Discrimination in policing contexts, 556 00:21:55,739 --> 00:21:57,639 discrimination in the workplace. 557 00:21:57,639 --> 00:21:59,609 And so, I think the pronoun issue 558 00:21:59,609 --> 00:22:00,969 is really a red herring. 559 00:22:00,969 --> 00:22:03,269 When you look through the jurisprudence 560 00:22:03,269 --> 00:22:04,859 dating back to the 1990s, 561 00:22:04,859 --> 00:22:07,929 we're seeing much more fundamental questions – 562 00:22:07,929 --> 00:22:09,759 really basic human rights questions – 563 00:22:09,759 --> 00:22:11,469 that are coming before the tribunals. 564 00:22:11,469 --> 00:22:15,149 And having reviewed the case law, 565 00:22:15,149 --> 00:22:17,669 I'm not seeing the kind of New York scenario 566 00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:19,470 that you're proposing at all. 567 00:22:19,470 --> 00:22:20,760 STEVE: Well, let me read some of 568 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,059 the Ontario Human Rights Code to you 569 00:22:22,059 --> 00:22:24,489 and then I'll get your feedback on that. 570 00:22:24,489 --> 00:22:26,390 "Discrimination," the Human Rights Code 571 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:28,779 says, "happens when a person experiences 572 00:22:28,779 --> 00:22:31,549 negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, 573 00:22:31,549 --> 00:22:33,359 because of their gender identity 574 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,559 or gender expression. It can be direct 575 00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:37,959 and obvious or subtle and hidden, 576 00:22:37,959 --> 00:22:40,299 but harmful just the same. It can also happen 577 00:22:40,299 --> 00:22:42,369 on a bigger systemic level such as 578 00:22:42,369 --> 00:22:44,619 organizational rules or policies that 579 00:22:44,619 --> 00:22:48,039 look neutral but end up excluding trans people. ... 580 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:49,839 Organizations are liable for any 581 00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:52,219 discrimination and harassment that happens. 582 00:22:52,219 --> 00:22:53,679 They are also liable for not 583 00:22:53,679 --> 00:22:56,109 accommodating a trans person's needs 584 00:22:56,109 --> 00:22:59,249 unless it would cause undue hardship." 585 00:22:59,249 --> 00:23:01,419 And again, Kyle, I'll get you to follow up on 586 00:23:01,419 --> 00:23:05,200 that inasmuch as if a trans person or 587 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,980 somebody whose gender identity was more, 588 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:09,459 shall we say, complicated than the male/female 589 00:23:09,459 --> 00:23:11,649 that we've been talking about so far, 590 00:23:11,649 --> 00:23:14,379 and the pronoun used to describe 591 00:23:14,379 --> 00:23:17,499 that person were not traditional, 592 00:23:17,499 --> 00:23:19,379 would the person have a case 593 00:23:19,379 --> 00:23:20,959 before the Human Rights Commission? 594 00:23:20,959 --> 00:23:22,209 KYLE: So, we haven't seen 595 00:23:22,209 --> 00:23:23,949 cases on that at this point. But I would 596 00:23:23,949 --> 00:23:25,899 say absolutely as a rule of – 597 00:23:25,899 --> 00:23:27,489 as a general rule that you should be thinking 598 00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:29,489 about in terms of employment settings, 599 00:23:29,489 --> 00:23:32,289 absolutely, respecting trans persons' 600 00:23:32,289 --> 00:23:35,750 pronoun choice is really fundamental. 601 00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:38,380 And I can also say that in lots of circumstances, 602 00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:40,720 a pronoun may not even be required. 603 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,020 There are lots of creative ways to avoid using 604 00:23:44,020 --> 00:23:47,650 gender pronouns at all. And so, I think that – 605 00:23:47,650 --> 00:23:49,030 But when you actually look at 606 00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:50,380 the cases that are coming before tribunals, 607 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:52,960 we're not seeing that to be, really, 608 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,520 the primary issue. It's much more 609 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,490 basic human rights questions, 610 00:23:57,490 --> 00:24:00,010 which is what the federal legislation here, 611 00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:01,980 Bill C16, tries to accomplish. 612 00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:04,360 STEVE: All right. I think we've set the table now. 613 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:06,549 You want to get in on this now, I can tell. 614 00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:08,049 You've heard what the professor has to say. 615 00:24:08,049 --> 00:24:10,209 What's your response? 616 00:24:10,209 --> 00:24:11,460 JORDAN: Well, I don't understand 617 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:12,530 what the claim that 618 00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:14,410 there's no such thing as biological sex means. 619 00:24:14,410 --> 00:24:17,470 And I certainly think it's – let's call it 620 00:24:17,470 --> 00:24:19,990 an error – to suggest that there's some 621 00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:23,000 sort of scientific consensus about that. 622 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,400 I mean, there's biological differences 623 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,490 between males and females 624 00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:29,500 in animals and human beings 625 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:31,090 at every level of analysis from the – 626 00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:32,280 STEVE: Okay. I'm jumping in here. JORDAN: Yeah. 627 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,759 STEVE: Because what about the notion 628 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:34,449 he put forward at the end there 629 00:24:34,449 --> 00:24:35,799 that if you do not refer to people 630 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:38,200 with the pronoun that they prefer to be 631 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,570 referred to, that is a form, according to 632 00:24:40,570 --> 00:24:41,590 the Human Rights Commission, of discrimination? 633 00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:43,419 JORDAN: It's not just a form of discrimination, 634 00:24:43,419 --> 00:24:45,690 it's a form of hate speech. 635 00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:47,500 That's why I made the video. 636 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:51,170 I said that we were in danger of placing 637 00:24:51,170 --> 00:24:53,080 the refusal to use certain kinds of language 638 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,210 into the same category as Holocaust denial, 639 00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:58,070 and suggested that maybe 640 00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:59,300 that wasn't such a good idea – 641 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:01,200 especially since there's plenty of debate 642 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,380 to be had about gender issues in our society, 643 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:04,780 which I also think are also 644 00:25:04,780 --> 00:25:08,170 in danger of becoming illegal, and quite rapidly. 645 00:25:08,170 --> 00:25:10,179 So, it isn't clear to me how long 646 00:25:10,179 --> 00:25:11,350 we'll be able to have the talk 647 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:13,960 that we're having right now. STEVE: Here are some – 648 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,009 KYLE: Can I jump in there – 649 00:25:16,009 --> 00:25:17,410 Can I jump in there on – STEVE: Please. 650 00:25:17,410 --> 00:25:19,140 KYLE: I think it's a common misconception 651 00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,460 about Bill C16 that it's somehow going 652 00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:25,240 to make pronoun use into hate speech. 653 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,559 If you actually look at the provisions, 654 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:28,720 we're talking about very minor amendments 655 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:29,800 to the criminal code. 656 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,640 For example, Section – JORDAN: They're not minor. 657 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,150 They put it into the hate-speech category. They're not minor at all. 658 00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:37,130 That's a misstatement. THERYN: I actually agree with you on that point. 659 00:25:37,130 --> 00:25:39,990 JORDAN: So don't tell me they're minor. THERYN: I think there's a lot of opportunity here – 660 00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:42,550 JORDAN: That's not – that's not right. THERYN: There's a lot of opportunity opening. 661 00:25:42,550 --> 00:25:44,799 KYLE: So Section – STEVE: Kyle, go ahead. 662 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:46,419 KYLE: So, Section 318 – Pardon me. 663 00:25:46,419 --> 00:25:48,909 So, Section 318 sets out a series of identifiable groups, 664 00:25:48,909 --> 00:25:51,350 and we're talking about the clearest of cases – 665 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:54,399 the cases of advocating genocide. 666 00:25:54,399 --> 00:25:55,840 And we have a series of groups 667 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,639 that are already identified in the code. 668 00:25:57,639 --> 00:25:59,499 And all this does is add gender identity and 669 00:25:59,499 --> 00:26:01,809 gender expression to the categories 670 00:26:01,809 --> 00:26:03,940 that are already identified. And so, I think we 671 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:06,220 really have to add some reasonableness 672 00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:08,230 to this discussion, actually clearly 673 00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:10,570 articulate what the provision does. 674 00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:12,070 STEVE: Well, let me be a little clearer about what 675 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:15,669 some of the problems – what you might be 676 00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:17,230 asking for if you want to do this. 677 00:26:17,230 --> 00:26:19,929 For example, and Sheldon, bottom of Page 3 here, 678 00:26:19,929 --> 00:26:21,789 let's put this graphic up. 679 00:26:21,789 --> 00:26:24,129 "[P]ronoun misuse may become actionable 680 00:26:24,129 --> 00:26:25,720 through the Human Rights Tribunals and the courts. 681 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,639 And the remedies? Monetary damages, 682 00:26:27,639 --> 00:26:29,559 non-financial remedies, (for example, 683 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:31,269 ceasing the discriminatory practice or 684 00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:33,519 reinstatement to the job), and public interest 685 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:35,590 remedies (for example, changing 686 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:37,059 hiring practices or developing 687 00:26:37,059 --> 00:26:38,769 non-discriminatory policies and procedures). 688 00:26:38,769 --> 00:26:41,340 Jail time is not one of them." 689 00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:43,179 Jordan, you're not going to go to jail if 690 00:26:43,179 --> 00:26:44,649 you keep this up. Do you find that reassuring? 691 00:26:44,649 --> 00:26:48,489 JORDAN: What if I don't pay the fine? 692 00:26:48,489 --> 00:26:50,619 STEVE: Then what? JORDAN: Then what? And let's talk about 693 00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,960 the legalities for a minute. As you know, 694 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,460 the University of Toronto sent me 695 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:57,279 two warning letters – right? – and the second one 696 00:26:57,279 --> 00:26:58,869 basically asked me to stop talking about this. 697 00:26:58,869 --> 00:27:01,629 STEVE: Who sent the letters? JORDAN: The first – 698 00:27:01,629 --> 00:27:03,460 It's the administration, fundamentally, 699 00:27:03,460 --> 00:27:04,989 the higher up people in the administration. 700 00:27:04,989 --> 00:27:07,299 The last one was the Dean of the Faculty 701 00:27:07,299 --> 00:27:10,029 of Arts and Science. 702 00:27:10,029 --> 00:27:11,710 But it's coming from 703 00:27:11,710 --> 00:27:12,790 the top end of the university. 704 00:27:12,790 --> 00:27:13,870 STEVE: And the letter said essentially 705 00:27:13,870 --> 00:27:14,950 you you must call people by 706 00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:16,629 the pronouns they want? 707 00:27:16,629 --> 00:27:18,970 JORDAN: The letters basically said that – 708 00:27:18,970 --> 00:27:21,190 and this is paraphrasing, obviously – 709 00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:22,929 that I'm required to abide by the university 710 00:27:22,929 --> 00:27:25,099 policies and the Ontario Human Rights Code. 711 00:27:25,099 --> 00:27:27,190 And there's a strong implication in the letter, 712 00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:28,749 by having this discussion, 713 00:27:28,749 --> 00:27:30,489 that I wasn't doing so. 714 00:27:30,489 --> 00:27:31,879 And so, they're asking me to stop. 715 00:27:31,879 --> 00:27:32,929 And I can tell you also 716 00:27:32,929 --> 00:27:34,039 why they're asking me to stop 717 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:37,100 apart from that. The codes, as written, 718 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:38,889 make the university just as liable 719 00:27:38,889 --> 00:27:42,369 for my speech as I am. So, not only is 720 00:27:42,369 --> 00:27:44,739 there a reasonable possibility that what 721 00:27:44,739 --> 00:27:46,539 I'm doing is uttering hate speech now 722 00:27:46,539 --> 00:27:48,659 under our law, but the university is 723 00:27:48,659 --> 00:27:50,919 legally responsible for that. 724 00:27:50,919 --> 00:27:52,629 And so, I think they consulted with their lawyers 725 00:27:52,629 --> 00:27:54,609 and decided that maybe the claim that 726 00:27:54,609 --> 00:27:56,710 I was making in my video was correct – that – 727 00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:59,499 So – And so, I don't regard that as trivial. 728 00:27:59,499 --> 00:28:00,400 And I think that 729 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,920 the lawyer who's discussing this is 730 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,390 downplaying the significance of it tremendously. 731 00:28:05,390 --> 00:28:06,950 NICHOLAS: Could I speak to the campus 732 00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:07,900 climate about this? 733 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:09,350 STEVE: Go ahead. NICHOLAS: Because I don't agree with 734 00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:11,400 why Dr. Peterson has been asked 735 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,050 to stop abusing students on campus. 736 00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:16,270 JORDAN: To stop doing what? NICHOLAS: Abusing students – 737 00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:17,770 JORDAN: I see. NICHOLAS: – and other members of 738 00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:19,720 our learning community who do deserve 739 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,370 respect and do deserve to be able to work 740 00:28:21,370 --> 00:28:23,620 and learn and contribute to society 741 00:28:23,620 --> 00:28:27,970 in a place where, if they are physically assaulted, 742 00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:31,780 if they are – JORDAN: The assaults so far 743 00:28:31,780 --> 00:28:33,610 came from the social-justice warriors 744 00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:35,200 who were at this free-speech rally and 745 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,480 almost 2 million people have watched those, so far. 746 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,090 NICHOLAS: This is not accurate. This is not accurate. 747 00:28:39,090 --> 00:28:40,640 JORDAN: Well, you can look at the videos yourself 748 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,920 NICHOLAS: You are being actioned because people 749 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,470 have been making complaints about your behavior. 750 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:46,170 JORDAN: Yes, I understand that. 751 00:28:46,170 --> 00:28:47,340 NICHOLAS: Yes. and so we're seeing 752 00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:48,693 a greater opportunity for social justice 753 00:28:48,693 --> 00:28:51,440 happening that many people won't understand. 754 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,230 STEVE: Nick, can I be clear on something? 755 00:28:53,230 --> 00:28:54,940 You've accused him of abusing 756 00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:56,543 students by not using the pronouns they 757 00:28:56,543 --> 00:28:57,976 want to be addressed by. 758 00:28:57,976 --> 00:28:59,240 NICHOLAS: That's how I see it. Absolutely. 759 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,090 STEVE: That is tantamount to abuse in your view. 760 00:29:01,090 --> 00:29:02,010 NICHOLAS: Absolutely! 761 00:29:02,010 --> 00:29:04,620 Many, many global documents, many organizations – 762 00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:06,840 JORDAN: How about violence? Is it tantamount to violence? 763 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,830 NICHOLAS: Yes. Absolutely. 764 00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:09,670 JORDAN: How about hate speech? Is it tantamount to hate speech? 765 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:11,240 NICHOLAS: Yes! Of course, it's hate speech. JORDAN: Fine. That's – 766 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,550 NICHOLAS: – to tell someone that you won't refer to them as – 767 00:29:13,550 --> 00:29:14,500 in a way that they – 768 00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:16,490 that recognizes their humanity and dignity. 769 00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:19,570 STEVE: Mary, let me get you in on this at this point. MARY: Sure. [chuckles] 770 00:29:19,570 --> 00:29:21,580 STEVE: You've got something you want to say or can I put a question to you? 771 00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:24,160 MARY: Uh, both go ahead. STEVE: Okay. MARY: Put the question and I'll – 772 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,880 STEVE: You're a writer, Mary. MARY: I am. 773 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,550 STEVE: I know you care about free speech because you're a writer. 774 00:29:28,550 --> 00:29:31,270 MARY: Yes. STEVE: Does Jordan Peterson 775 00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:32,710 have a little place in your heart 776 00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:34,510 because he's arguing free speech here? 777 00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:36,160 MARY: I think the interesting thing about 778 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,679 Jordan and how I feel about his video – 779 00:29:38,679 --> 00:29:40,870 And Jordan and I actually had an 780 00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:42,460 opportunity to talk at length before 781 00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:45,160 I wrote The Walrus article. And he sails 782 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,559 really close to things that I think 783 00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:49,660 people can relate to. And I think that we 784 00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:51,610 all want to have an open 785 00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:53,320 discourse, we want conversations to 786 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,850 unfold, we want people to feel like they – 787 00:29:54,850 --> 00:29:56,590 if they have something to say – if they 788 00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:57,910 have a question, they can ask it – 789 00:29:57,910 --> 00:30:00,910 that they're not going to be censored. 790 00:30:00,910 --> 00:30:03,070 But he sails really close and then right past it. 791 00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:04,809 And that's where he and I part ways 792 00:30:04,809 --> 00:30:06,550 because what I don't really understand 793 00:30:06,550 --> 00:30:11,020 is when you listen to the video, 794 00:30:11,020 --> 00:30:14,349 he piles a lot of things into the basket of 795 00:30:14,349 --> 00:30:16,909 using the pronouns that people want. 796 00:30:16,909 --> 00:30:19,409 And it seems to me – 797 00:30:19,409 --> 00:30:21,979 And you can correct me if I'm wrong. 798 00:30:21,979 --> 00:30:23,239 But one of his anxieties – 799 00:30:23,239 --> 00:30:24,199 And he talks about being 800 00:30:24,199 --> 00:30:27,289 fearful and anxious in his video – 801 00:30:27,289 --> 00:30:31,919 that somehow there's a cabal of trans activists 802 00:30:31,919 --> 00:30:34,299 who have so much power that 803 00:30:34,299 --> 00:30:37,459 they are going to basically – 804 00:30:37,459 --> 00:30:39,779 Using the pronouns that people want 805 00:30:39,779 --> 00:30:41,769 and capitulating to these demands 806 00:30:41,769 --> 00:30:44,269 sort of pulls out the 807 00:30:44,269 --> 00:30:45,799 critical Jenga piece of 808 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:47,869 the Western canon, right? [chuckles] I mean, basically, 809 00:30:47,869 --> 00:30:50,149 Jordan is arguing that this is going to 810 00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:52,189 create chaos and anarchy and 811 00:30:52,189 --> 00:30:56,529 that it's essentially a Marxist plot that 812 00:30:56,529 --> 00:31:01,399 is there to sow violence and there to 813 00:31:01,399 --> 00:31:04,549 sow confusion and topple any kind of hierarchy. 814 00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:06,979 STEVE: Can I just jump in there for a second? 815 00:31:06,979 --> 00:31:08,629 Is that an accurate characterization of your view on this? 816 00:31:08,629 --> 00:31:10,669 MARY: I listened really closely to that tape. 817 00:31:10,669 --> 00:31:12,889 I think it is. STEVE: Is it – In your view, has she 818 00:31:12,889 --> 00:31:16,319 accurately characterized where you're coming from? 819 00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:18,429 JORDAN: It's not a transexual cabal 820 00:31:18,429 --> 00:31:20,719 by any stretch of the imagination. 821 00:31:20,719 --> 00:31:23,579 Is it a cabal of radical left-wingers? 822 00:31:23,579 --> 00:31:25,579 Yes. It's a cabal of radical left-wingers, 823 00:31:25,579 --> 00:31:27,919 and they've been active behind and in 824 00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:29,989 front of the scenes increasingly over 825 00:31:29,989 --> 00:31:32,449 the last 30 years. And my estimation is 826 00:31:32,449 --> 00:31:34,759 that departments like Women Studies have 827 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:36,469 trained between 300,000 828 00:31:36,469 --> 00:31:39,599 and 3 million radical left-wing activists. 829 00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:41,089 And they're making – MARY: And they're all 830 00:31:41,089 --> 00:31:44,029 underpaid, so don't worry. [LAUGHS] JORDAN: Well, they could 831 00:31:44,029 --> 00:31:46,339 pick higher-paying occupations if they 832 00:31:46,339 --> 00:31:48,379 wanted higher-paying occupations. But – 833 00:31:48,379 --> 00:31:51,109 NICHOLAS: Because sexism does not exist. [chuckles] 834 00:31:51,109 --> 00:31:51,999 Are you kidding me? 835 00:31:51,999 --> 00:31:54,389 STEVE: Let's not get off topic here, folks. Go ahead, Mary. 836 00:31:54,389 --> 00:31:56,579 NICHOLAS: I think we're directly on point. STEVE: Mary, come on back. 837 00:31:56,579 --> 00:32:01,109 [inaudible crosstalk] MARY: So, I think Jordan has conceded that – 838 00:32:01,109 --> 00:32:06,719 I think I've grasped his concern At the very least, I've grasped the concern 839 00:32:06,719 --> 00:32:09,669 that there is a kind of chipping away 840 00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:12,529 at order as we've come to know it. 841 00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:13,639 The other thing that Jordan and I have in 842 00:32:13,639 --> 00:32:16,929 common is a real interest in language, 843 00:32:16,929 --> 00:32:20,149 and the idea of what can happen when 844 00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:24,499 language changes, when it evolves. 845 00:32:24,499 --> 00:32:26,029 And I was thinking before I came here – 846 00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:28,440 I was thinking about – I grew up in the Bronx 847 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,840 and I was born in '61. So, I remember very well 848 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,420 when we went from "Mrs." to "Ms." 849 00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:38,720 And my father was appalled. And he kept 850 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,929 saying "Ms" and he thought was funny 851 00:32:41,929 --> 00:32:43,850 because if you couldn't actually identify somebody as 852 00:32:43,850 --> 00:32:47,059 either – particularly a female – as either 853 00:32:47,059 --> 00:32:51,679 married or single, then – chaos, right? STEVE: The notion of 854 00:32:51,679 --> 00:32:53,299 characterizing a woman independent of 855 00:32:53,299 --> 00:32:55,610 her marital status was controversial at the time. MARY: That's right. And apparently very, 856 00:32:55,610 --> 00:32:58,250 very confusing. And so, I'm reminded of 857 00:32:58,250 --> 00:33:01,160 that when there's the – 858 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,070 when the suggestion is made that somehow if we 859 00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:06,700 have words that don't fit into 860 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,600 something that we're very familiar with 861 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,419 and that we've used to date, that chaos 862 00:33:11,419 --> 00:33:14,270 will ensue, that everyone will be confused. I don't believe that. JORDAN: Well, there's two differences. 863 00:33:14,270 --> 00:33:15,650 MARY: There's no evidence of that historically. 864 00:33:15,650 --> 00:33:17,720 STEVE: I hear you. But there was no law 865 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,240 obliging people to use the word "Ms." 866 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,309 MARY: But there were laws to oblige 867 00:33:22,309 --> 00:33:26,030 people to change the way that we 868 00:33:26,030 --> 00:33:30,380 referred to Black people, for example. 869 00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:32,020 There was a time when 870 00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:34,070 there were any number of words that we 871 00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:36,380 now can only say as letters. Can I say 872 00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:38,870 them on TVO? People were called "darkies," 873 00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:43,460 "niggers," "coons" in polite company. And that evolved. 874 00:33:43,460 --> 00:33:45,770 Those things changed. When I was 875 00:33:45,770 --> 00:33:47,390 a teenager, people were still using those words. 876 00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:49,970 STEVE: So, this is a natural evolution in in your view. 877 00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:51,559 MARY: This is a natural evolution. 878 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:53,870 And nobody's – Chaos will not ensue. And – JORDAN: If it's a natural 879 00:33:53,870 --> 00:33:55,730 evolution, then we don't need hate-speech 880 00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:57,919 law to enforce it. MARY: But we obviously – 881 00:33:57,919 --> 00:34:00,380 we do because we can drive social change. 882 00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:01,940 And it doesn't all have to lead to chaos 883 00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:04,700 is my point. And I think that 884 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:06,590 we have seen the flip side of – 885 00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:09,590 Jordan's argument – I think – has in fact – we 886 00:34:09,590 --> 00:34:11,719 do have a historical record of that. 887 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,310 So, when it was left to others to name 888 00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:16,250 people, we lost indigenous names. 889 00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:18,199 I come from – My mother's from Ireland. 890 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:19,699 She was from a generation that finally got to 891 00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:21,409 learn her own language again. 892 00:34:21,409 --> 00:34:22,730 She couldn't even speak Gaelic to her 893 00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:23,989 parents because they hadn't been allowed 894 00:34:23,989 --> 00:34:26,000 to speak it. So we know. We've seen the 895 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,730 effect when people can't use their own 896 00:34:28,730 --> 00:34:30,199 language, when they can't use their own names. 897 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:31,850 STEVE: Okay. Let me get Jordan to respond to that. 898 00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:33,230 A natural evolution of things, Jordan. 899 00:34:33,230 --> 00:34:38,119 That's how it's being described. JORDAN: Look. Words are tools. 900 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:39,350 Maybe that was one of the great philosophical 901 00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:41,780 discoveries of the 20th century. 902 00:34:41,780 --> 00:34:43,909 And that means – And people are always 903 00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:46,219 looking for new tools to operate in the world. 904 00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:49,429 And if you invent a good tool, 905 00:34:49,429 --> 00:34:50,949 like a new word, then people will pick it up 906 00:34:50,949 --> 00:34:53,480 just as fast as they possibly can. 907 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,730 You really see that in English. But the words 908 00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:57,800 that are being required now are not good 909 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,480 tools and that's why people aren't using them. 910 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,940 And so, instead, what we have is the 911 00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:03,740 use of force, despite the fact that 912 00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:05,750 that's being denied – although we've 913 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:07,550 already established that, at least in the 914 00:35:07,550 --> 00:35:08,869 opinion of one of the people on this 915 00:35:08,869 --> 00:35:10,700 panel, I'm already guilty of a hate crime, 916 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:12,140 which is what I said I was guilty of 917 00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:14,720 when I made that video. 918 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:15,830 The issue with the law is quite 919 00:35:15,830 --> 00:35:17,930 straightforward. The government is 920 00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:19,910 responding – is requiring us to use 921 00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:21,859 certain language. That's not the same as 922 00:35:21,859 --> 00:35:24,260 not using certain language. And it's a 923 00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:25,820 line – And this is the fundamental issue. 924 00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:27,560 This is maybe the fundamental issue. 925 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,260 That's a line we should not cross. 926 00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:31,520 We should not allow the government to 927 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,160 decide which words we're allowed to use. 928 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,740 It's a mistake – and it's a mistake that 929 00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:38,150 strikes right at the heart of free speech. 930 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:39,920 And the thing about free speech 931 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,840 is that it's not the right to 932 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,930 criticize your leaders, which is what 933 00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:46,730 people usually characterize it as. 934 00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:49,250 Freedom of speech is freedom to engage 935 00:35:49,250 --> 00:35:51,230 in the processes that we use to 936 00:35:51,230 --> 00:35:54,020 formulate the problems in our society, 937 00:35:54,020 --> 00:35:56,000 to generate solutions to them, and reach a 938 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,040 consensus. It's actually a mechanism – 939 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,109 it's not just another value. And you should 940 00:36:00,109 --> 00:36:01,849 put constraints on free speech with the 941 00:36:01,849 --> 00:36:03,920 most extreme caution because you 942 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,140 interfere with people's ability to think 943 00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:07,820 and communicate. STEVE: Let me get Theryn to 944 00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:09,109 weigh in. Theryn, you've been hearing the 945 00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:10,490 debate here in the studio. Why don't you 946 00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:13,609 weigh in and pick it up? THERYN: Well, I guess I'm 947 00:36:13,609 --> 00:36:15,530 in the same boat as Dr. Peterson when 948 00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:17,510 it comes to being guilty of a hate crime – 949 00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:21,619 or a – sorry – a hate-speech infringement – 950 00:36:21,619 --> 00:36:24,349 because, I mean, I draw the line somewhere. 951 00:36:24,349 --> 00:36:27,710 For example, I refuse to use pronouns 952 00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,859 like "zes" and "zir." I don't have a problem 953 00:36:30,859 --> 00:36:32,750 using "they/them/their" pronouns – 954 00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:34,520 and that also happens just to be because of 955 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,109 the circles in which I move. I happen to 956 00:36:36,109 --> 00:36:37,910 know people who use gender-neutral 957 00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:40,339 pronouns so I've gotten used to it. 958 00:36:40,339 --> 00:36:42,859 But the vast majority of people are not 959 00:36:42,859 --> 00:36:45,410 going to come into contact with the 960 00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:47,060 incredibly small fraction of the 961 00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:49,810 population of gender non-binary people. 962 00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:53,060 And that's why this is never 963 00:36:53,060 --> 00:36:54,170 really going to pick up, 964 00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:56,000 in my opinion. When it comes to 965 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,570 "Mrs." and "Ms.," at least half of 966 00:36:59,570 --> 00:37:03,350 the population is female, so there was 967 00:37:03,350 --> 00:37:06,470 some interaction with the term "Mrs." 968 00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:10,670 versus "Ms.," and there were some 969 00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:12,080 interactions so people could pick it up. 970 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,780 There just aren't enough gender 971 00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:17,180 non-binary – I use that in quotation marks, 972 00:37:17,180 --> 00:37:19,370 because I hate that term because it's a 973 00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:21,920 political term not a gender 974 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,080 identity or a term of 975 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,520 identification. It's just a political term. 976 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,700 But regardless, I don't think it's 977 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:30,500 going to pick up. There's just not enough 978 00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:33,530 of these people to interact with. 979 00:37:33,530 --> 00:37:36,440 STEVE: The Twittersphere has been buzzing with this conversation. 980 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,890 And let's just pull one up here. 981 00:37:39,890 --> 00:37:41,780 Let's pull up one tweet. This was 982 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:42,950 tweeted to a number of people including, 983 00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:44,960 as you can see in the middle, Jordan B. Peterson, 984 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,640 who's on our program tonight. 985 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,880 "I so look forward to Bill C16 putting 986 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,210 your kind of silly trolling to an end," it says. 987 00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:55,280 There are people – Let's go to our 988 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,740 Professor Kyle in Ottawa. "There are 989 00:37:57,740 --> 00:37:59,840 people out there who hope that C16 lives 990 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,720 up to Jordan's worst fears. Do you agree 991 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:05,690 that C16 ought to be able to prevent 992 00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:08,540 people from expressing negative opinions 993 00:38:08,540 --> 00:38:11,990 about transgender people?" KYLE: So, first I want 994 00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:14,630 to clarify that Bill C16 only applies to 995 00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:17,480 federally-regulated entities. 996 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,010 So, for example, the University of Toronto is 997 00:38:19,010 --> 00:38:20,720 under provincial jurisdiction, so it is 998 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,060 therefore subject to the Ontario Human Rights Code. 999 00:38:23,060 --> 00:38:24,140 So, I think that's an 1000 00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:26,540 important point to note. I also want to 1001 00:38:26,540 --> 00:38:28,490 note there's been a lot of talk about 1002 00:38:28,490 --> 00:38:31,100 hate crimes. That seems to be 1003 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:33,380 kind of an American import into our discussion. 1004 00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:35,690 The only two changes that 1005 00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:38,990 this Bill C16 make are to make minor 1006 00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:43,100 amendments to Section 318 and 718 of the Criminal Code. 1007 00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:44,930 The first is advocating genocide, 1008 00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:46,940 as I've talked about – a very, very extreme, high standard. 1009 00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:48,980 And then second off, 1010 00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:51,590 at sentencing, after an offense has been 1011 00:38:51,590 --> 00:38:53,600 committed and the person has been found guilty, 1012 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,080 what 718 does is it tells judges that 1013 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,200 they ought to treat hate motivation as 1014 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,540 an aggravating factor at sentencing – 1015 00:39:02,540 --> 00:39:04,550 to treat that as a more severe form. 1016 00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:07,760 And currently, we have a series of identities 1017 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,310 that are set out in 718 – things like sexual 1018 00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:13,670 orientation, race. We don't have currently 1019 00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:14,930 gender identity and gender expression there. 1020 00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:17,450 And so, that's what this does. 1021 00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:18,890 So, I think – I just want to make it very 1022 00:39:18,890 --> 00:39:20,690 clear that we ought not to be importing 1023 00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:23,860 American concepts into the discussion here. 1024 00:39:23,860 --> 00:39:27,380 And so, to the extent that Bill C16 1025 00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:31,010 makes changes only to – in the Canadian 1026 00:39:31,010 --> 00:39:33,710 Human Rights Act context – to federally 1027 00:39:33,710 --> 00:39:35,690 regulated entities, which is not the 1028 00:39:35,690 --> 00:39:37,310 University of Toronto. STEVE: Nicholas, let me 1029 00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:39,620 follow up with you. Why in your view do 1030 00:39:39,620 --> 00:39:41,600 you think the trans community needs this 1031 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,310 kind of legislative protection? 1032 00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:44,690 NICHOLAS: Well, thank you. That's basically the point 1033 00:39:44,690 --> 00:39:46,520 that hasn't been raised yet which is 1034 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,940 that people are actually suffering huge 1035 00:39:48,940 --> 00:39:52,550 lack of access to resources that will 1036 00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:54,500 allow people to survive. So, people are 1037 00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:56,360 being physically assaulted, people do not 1038 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,190 have counselors that they can go to who 1039 00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:01,730 are not going to – as Dr. Peterson has 1040 00:40:01,730 --> 00:40:04,070 done on YouTube – recommend that they 1041 00:40:04,070 --> 00:40:06,190 actually become more anxious and more 1042 00:40:06,190 --> 00:40:10,220 upset about situations. People are being assaulted. 1043 00:40:10,220 --> 00:40:12,140 I brought all sorts of really 1044 00:40:12,140 --> 00:40:16,250 depressing stats that – People who are 1045 00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:18,950 leaning towards thinking that this is 1046 00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:20,990 not that big of a deal, those people need 1047 00:40:20,990 --> 00:40:24,710 to look at those stats. But many people – STEVE: Give us one. Give us one stat. 1048 00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:28,370 NICHOLAS: Yeah. So, 58% of students 1049 00:40:28,370 --> 00:40:30,200 could not get academic transcripts with 1050 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,870 their correct name or pronoun. 1051 00:40:31,870 --> 00:40:34,400 That causes a huge chain of events for 1052 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,290 students or anybody who's had any kind 1053 00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:38,660 of academic training. As everyone 1054 00:40:38,660 --> 00:40:40,220 recognizes, we need to be able to have 1055 00:40:40,220 --> 00:40:42,130 references, we need to be able to have resumes, 1056 00:40:42,130 --> 00:40:45,890 we need to be able to get jobs. 1057 00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:48,710 STEVE: So, I want to be sure that I'm 1058 00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:50,270 clearly understanding your point here, 1059 00:40:50,270 --> 00:40:52,610 which is – and therefore they feel disrespected, 1060 00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:54,260 and therefore this affects their life in 1061 00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:56,330 a very real way? Is that right? 1062 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:58,100 NICHOLAS: The feeling of disrespect is not as 1063 00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:00,950 important as the ways that people in 1064 00:41:00,950 --> 00:41:02,960 authority are able to circumvent the 1065 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,300 possibilities for living. So, it has more 1066 00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:06,740 to do with not being able to find housing, 1067 00:41:06,740 --> 00:41:08,990 and therefore being homeless. 1068 00:41:08,990 --> 00:41:10,970 It has more to do with not being able to get 1069 00:41:10,970 --> 00:41:13,190 jobs because people are discriminated against. 1070 00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:15,620 So we're not actually talking – 1071 00:41:15,620 --> 00:41:16,850 we shouldn't be talking about free speech. 1072 00:41:16,850 --> 00:41:18,230 What we should be talking about are the 1073 00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:19,880 social issues facing people who are 1074 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,190 being discriminated against 1075 00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:23,440 and what that looks like on campus – 1076 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,380 which is that some professors refuse to offer 1077 00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:28,960 basic dignity to students and colleagues. 1078 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,650 And that leads to people missing classes, 1079 00:41:32,650 --> 00:41:34,869 it leads to people dropping out, it leads 1080 00:41:34,869 --> 00:41:38,170 to a lack of positive opportunity for 1081 00:41:38,170 --> 00:41:40,690 society to actually benefit from the 1082 00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:43,060 contributions of many, many people. 1083 00:41:43,060 --> 00:41:44,859 And I also don't teach that there's a huge 1084 00:41:44,859 --> 00:41:46,390 divide between trans people and 1085 00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:47,980 non trans people because I would say 1086 00:41:47,980 --> 00:41:49,839 the number is 100% of people 1087 00:41:49,839 --> 00:41:52,270 will benefit from more open discussion. 1088 00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:54,220 And one of the problems is that 1089 00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:55,690 it's being addressed in a black-and-white way. 1090 00:41:55,690 --> 00:41:57,400 So, it's too bad that we can't actually 1091 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:58,990 have an open conversation because there's 1092 00:41:58,990 --> 00:42:00,910 a huge wall of violence between us. 1093 00:42:00,910 --> 00:42:02,680 STEVE: Here is somebody who did not 1094 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:03,940 share your view on that because we 1095 00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:05,470 invited another guest to be on the 1096 00:42:05,470 --> 00:42:07,960 program today. And this person initially 1097 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,670 said "yes," and then sent a Facebook 1098 00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:11,589 message to our producer [unknown] 1099 00:42:11,589 --> 00:42:13,780 [? Schamberg] saying, "You know what? 1100 00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:15,490 Changed my mind." "Giving Jordan Peterson this 1101 00:42:15,490 --> 00:42:17,619 platform serves to legitimize 1102 00:42:17,619 --> 00:42:19,960 his views which are based on bigotry and misinformation. 1103 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,210 The humanity and rights 1104 00:42:22,210 --> 00:42:24,520 of transgender non-binary and intersex 1105 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,200 people are not a matter of debate, 1106 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,599 and holding a debate which places a false 1107 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:30,160 equivalency between the views expressed 1108 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,930 by Peterson and the human rights 1109 00:42:31,930 --> 00:42:33,940 concerns of the trans community would be 1110 00:42:33,940 --> 00:42:36,369 an act of transphobia. Therefore, none of 1111 00:42:36,369 --> 00:42:40,839 us wish to participate in this." Okay. 1112 00:42:40,839 --> 00:42:43,119 NICHOLAS:Thank you. Thank you for reading that. It was a very 1113 00:42:43,119 --> 00:42:44,920 important perspective. STEVE: That's why I read it. I 1114 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,099 wonder whether, Jordan, 1115 00:42:47,099 --> 00:42:49,359 everybody's talking past each other here. 1116 00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:50,500 You are trying to make a point about free speech. 1117 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:53,200 JORDAN: I don't think we're talking past each other. 1118 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:54,849 STEVE: The other side – Well, but the others – You're 1119 00:42:54,849 --> 00:42:56,140 trying to make a point about free speech. 1120 00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:57,430 The other side is trying to make 1121 00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:59,800 a point about the rights – the human 1122 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,480 rights of trans people. That's not the 1123 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,430 point that you're trying to make. 1124 00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:05,079 Do we have two different groups here that are 1125 00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:06,550 trying to make two different points and 1126 00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:08,109 they find themselves in the same bowl of soup, 1127 00:43:08,109 --> 00:43:10,030 and that's why this has turned into 1128 00:43:10,030 --> 00:43:11,920 the conflagration it has? 1129 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,960 JORDAN: Well, it's partly that, because the issues we're 1130 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,550 discussing have to center on some 1131 00:43:15,550 --> 00:43:17,200 actual issues, and they happen to be 1132 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,450 centering on the issue surrounding 1133 00:43:19,450 --> 00:43:22,660 transgender language. But I don't think 1134 00:43:22,660 --> 00:43:24,550 we're talking past each other at all in 1135 00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:27,220 a fundamental sense. I mean, I think that 1136 00:43:27,220 --> 00:43:28,960 the real problem here is that 1137 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,599 there's a concerted attempt made being 1138 00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:34,300 made by many people to 1139 00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:36,730 subvert all values to the value of equality of outcome. 1140 00:43:36,730 --> 00:43:40,030 And we need more than one value, 1141 00:43:40,030 --> 00:43:41,140 first of all, if we're going to survive 1142 00:43:41,140 --> 00:43:43,570 as a society, because you can't solve 1143 00:43:43,570 --> 00:43:46,270 every problem with the same approach. 1144 00:43:46,270 --> 00:43:48,490 But there are more insidious things, in my 1145 00:43:48,490 --> 00:43:50,650 estimation, going on underneath. 1146 00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:53,650 I mean even the the missive that you just read 1147 00:43:53,650 --> 00:43:55,990 said that, well, even providing me with a 1148 00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:58,390 platform – let's call it – to express my 1149 00:43:58,390 --> 00:44:00,430 views is something that shouldn't be allowed. 1150 00:44:00,430 --> 00:44:02,290 It's like, "Yes, that's why I made the video." 1151 00:44:02,290 --> 00:44:04,150 It was because many people are 1152 00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:06,160 claiming that the expression of these 1153 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,660 sorts of views should no longer be permitted. 1154 00:44:07,660 --> 00:44:11,140 And it's this view for now. 1155 00:44:11,140 --> 00:44:13,150 But this is a minor issue in some ways 1156 00:44:13,150 --> 00:44:15,280 compared to the larger issue that's at stake, 1157 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,560 which is our right to have 1158 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,120 discussions of this sort at all. 1159 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,470 Like, I mean, one thing that happened right when 1160 00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:22,090 we started this was that there was an 1161 00:44:22,090 --> 00:44:23,650 initial claim, for example, that there's 1162 00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:26,170 no such thing as biological sex. 1163 00:44:26,170 --> 00:44:28,810 Well, I believe quite firmly that if we continue 1164 00:44:28,810 --> 00:44:30,730 on our present path at the universities 1165 00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:32,740 for five more years, that's a discussion we 1166 00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:34,150 will not actually be able to have on campuses. 1167 00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:37,030 Because – STEVE: Because you believe – JORDAN: By fiat. I mean, 1168 00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:39,850 the legislation already implicitly presumes 1169 00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:43,600 that biological sex, gender identity, 1170 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,100 and gender expression – which we haven't 1171 00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,320 even talked about yet – vary independently. 1172 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,310 That is simply not true. STEVE: Theryn, there – 1173 00:44:51,310 --> 00:44:52,870 the person who sent that Facebook message 1174 00:44:52,870 --> 00:44:54,160 thinks that we're partaking in 1175 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,930 transphobia just by having this debate. 1176 00:44:55,930 --> 00:44:58,000 I hope that's not the case. But I wonder if 1177 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,370 you could give us your explanation for 1178 00:45:00,370 --> 00:45:04,060 why some people adamantly refuse even 1179 00:45:04,060 --> 00:45:05,830 to have this discussion – that the notion 1180 00:45:05,830 --> 00:45:07,660 of having this discussion is somehow transphobic. 1181 00:45:07,660 --> 00:45:14,520 THERYN: I think it has to do with – 1182 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,630 There's a lacking when it 1183 00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:19,120 comes to actually being able 1184 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,840 to defend your points through argument. 1185 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,730 So, if you open up the discussion for argument, 1186 00:45:24,730 --> 00:45:27,720 they know they will lose. 1187 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,490 I think it's absolutely ludicrous and 1188 00:45:30,490 --> 00:45:32,590 insane to say that having this 1189 00:45:32,590 --> 00:45:36,040 discussion is, by default, transphobic. 1190 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,500 I think it's even more – it's equally 1191 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:40,630 ludicrous to call Dr. Peterson – what he 1192 00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:44,290 said – transphobic. I think it takes – 1193 00:45:44,290 --> 00:45:47,440 Using that term so willy-nilly, 1194 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,540 it takes the emotional response to 1195 00:45:49,540 --> 00:45:51,760 a term like "transphobia" and [conflates] it 1196 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,750 with something as, in my opinion, 1197 00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:57,550 as productive as having an open discussion. 1198 00:45:57,550 --> 00:46:00,040 And I think that's very insidious. 1199 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,570 And I think that's very manipulative. 1200 00:46:01,570 --> 00:46:03,430 STEVE: Kyle? Are we being transphobic here by 1201 00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:06,670 having this debate? KYLE: Well, I do worry about 1202 00:46:06,670 --> 00:46:09,220 setting up a false equivalency 1203 00:46:09,220 --> 00:46:11,650 in this conversation and really even having – 1204 00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:13,780 making the premise that trans lives are 1205 00:46:13,780 --> 00:46:15,550 up for debate. They're not up for debate. 1206 00:46:15,550 --> 00:46:17,200 Human rights aren't up for debate. 1207 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,310 And the reason that I agreed to be on 1208 00:46:18,310 --> 00:46:19,990 the program is that I've been very troubled 1209 00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:22,270 by the misinformation about what the law 1210 00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:24,610 is actually going to do. And so, I really 1211 00:46:24,610 --> 00:46:25,990 grappled with whether or not I wanted 1212 00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:28,000 to participate in this discussion. 1213 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,560 But I thought it was very important to really 1214 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,900 try to dial back the hateful rhetoric 1215 00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:33,900 and actually do a very careful 1216 00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:36,190 discussion about what the law is 1217 00:46:36,190 --> 00:46:37,780 actually designed to achieve and, 1218 00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:40,390 ultimately, to promote a more equitable 1219 00:46:40,390 --> 00:46:42,390 and just society. So, we've talked about 1220 00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:44,590 freedom of expression to use the 1221 00:46:44,590 --> 00:46:46,300 Canadian term, but we should also be 1222 00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:49,200 talking about other values like equality 1223 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,330 and anti-racism, I think. STEVE: Just curious, 1224 00:46:52,330 --> 00:46:53,620 Mary, I'm gonna get to in one sec. 1225 00:46:53,620 --> 00:46:55,300 curious, though. You've now participated 1226 00:46:55,300 --> 00:46:58,480 in 90% of the program. We're just about done. 1227 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,880 Do you – Was it a good idea for you to come on? 1228 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,980 KYLE: I think that it's an opportunity 1229 00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:05,500 to try to work through some of 1230 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:07,840 the legal issues, the social and human rights 1231 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,500 and equality issues, and so, I'm happy 1232 00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:13,060 to be here. But I recognize that other 1233 00:47:13,060 --> 00:47:14,950 people's experiences – they might find, 1234 00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:16,420 ultimately, that participating in this 1235 00:47:16,420 --> 00:47:19,030 program was a mistake. And time will tell. 1236 00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:21,610 STEVE: Mary, you wanted to follow up. MARY: Well, I certainly – sorry – 1237 00:47:21,610 --> 00:47:23,080 I certainly want to say that I found 1238 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,390 Kyle – I found that what you brought to it 1239 00:47:25,390 --> 00:47:26,860 in terms of putting the bill 1240 00:47:26,860 --> 00:47:28,330 into perspective actually really helpful, 1241 00:47:28,330 --> 00:47:30,070 and probably helpful to a lot of people. 1242 00:47:30,070 --> 00:47:32,500 So, I'm glad that Kyle was here. 1243 00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:33,760 I think, for me, one of the things that I'm really – 1244 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,520 I felt anxious about coming in – 1245 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,250 and I'm still puzzling over – why this issue? 1246 00:47:39,250 --> 00:47:42,790 Why this issue? So – and I do think – at the risk 1247 00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:45,630 of bringing in the United States again, 1248 00:47:45,630 --> 00:47:47,950 there does seem to be a similarity 1249 00:47:47,950 --> 00:47:49,960 between some of the rhetoric we're 1250 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,430 hearing down south right now through 1251 00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:53,440 the election and this. It's been – 1252 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,650 It feels like it's greatly exaggerated – 1253 00:47:56,650 --> 00:48:00,010 sort of what can – what will fallout from this, what will – 1254 00:48:00,010 --> 00:48:03,310 And we're sort of – It feels like a bit of 1255 00:48:03,310 --> 00:48:05,950 a tempest in a teapot. I don't see 1256 00:48:05,950 --> 00:48:08,050 the connections that Jordan is making. 1257 00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:09,280 And as a person who identifies as transgender, 1258 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,370 it's very, very confusing that this is 1259 00:48:12,370 --> 00:48:15,010 somehow up for discussion. STEVE: You saw the 1260 00:48:15,010 --> 00:48:16,480 tape at the beginning of the program 1261 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,610 of the – I mean he tried to give a speech at 1262 00:48:18,610 --> 00:48:22,210 a university campus and was really quite 1263 00:48:22,210 --> 00:48:24,490 mercilessly shouted down. MARY: And that would 1264 00:48:24,490 --> 00:48:26,110 be one of the places where Jordan and I 1265 00:48:26,110 --> 00:48:28,360 would have some common ground in 1266 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,870 that there has been a trend, 1267 00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:34,170 in some ways, for people to allow 1268 00:48:34,170 --> 00:48:36,970 no platforming, and, "This person's views 1269 00:48:36,970 --> 00:48:38,530 are objectionable and we don't want them 1270 00:48:38,530 --> 00:48:40,030 to come on the campus." STEVE: What do you think of that? 1271 00:48:40,030 --> 00:48:42,520 MARY: I think it's probably 1272 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,650 best not discussed in the context of 1273 00:48:44,650 --> 00:48:47,050 someone's personal identity, right? [chuckles] 1274 00:48:47,050 --> 00:48:48,430 So,that's part of my – that's part of what 1275 00:48:48,430 --> 00:48:50,860 I'm bothered by by this discussion. So – 1276 00:48:50,860 --> 00:48:52,390 STEVE: But if you can't have a discussion about 1277 00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:54,640 free speech on a university campus, 1278 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:55,690 then I guess you can't have one, 1279 00:48:55,690 --> 00:48:56,770 because that's supposed to be where they happen, isn't it? 1280 00:48:56,770 --> 00:48:59,110 MARY: I agree with you. I think that 1281 00:48:59,110 --> 00:49:00,760 that is a problem. What I'm trying to say 1282 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,920 is that those issues came up around – 1283 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,430 issues of someone who was 1284 00:49:06,430 --> 00:49:07,810 pro-Israel who wanted to come onto campus – 1285 00:49:07,810 --> 00:49:09,670 those things are political. 1286 00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:12,880 My identity, my personal identity, my gender 1287 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:14,050 identity is very separate from my 1288 00:49:14,050 --> 00:49:15,790 political identity. And so, it's very 1289 00:49:15,790 --> 00:49:17,620 strange to have this to be where we're 1290 00:49:17,620 --> 00:49:19,660 going to plant the flag and say, 1291 00:49:19,660 --> 00:49:21,370 "Enough with this crazy political correctness!" [chuckles] 1292 00:49:21,370 --> 00:49:23,350 "You don't get to choose your pronouns!" 1293 00:49:23,350 --> 00:49:25,330 It seems trivial to me. JORDAN: I thought it was 1294 00:49:25,330 --> 00:49:28,090 an axiom, say, of feminism, for example, 1295 00:49:28,090 --> 00:49:30,820 that the personal was political. 1296 00:49:30,820 --> 00:49:32,950 And isn't that the –? That's a famous phrase. 1297 00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:35,110 The personal is political. STEVE: Okay. But speaking – NICHOLAS: The personal is 1298 00:49:35,110 --> 00:49:37,330 political when someone is attacking you 1299 00:49:37,330 --> 00:49:39,400 on a basis that is personal and that you 1300 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,590 can't change about yourself. That's a – 1301 00:49:41,590 --> 00:49:44,350 That is political. And that's when people 1302 00:49:44,350 --> 00:49:46,780 sometimes become politicized is when 1303 00:49:46,780 --> 00:49:48,460 they realize that no matter what they do 1304 00:49:48,460 --> 00:49:50,350 in the world, there will be people who 1305 00:49:50,350 --> 00:49:52,840 will continue to attack them on racist grounds, 1306 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,150 on gender and sexual violence grounds. 1307 00:49:55,150 --> 00:49:57,100 And that's why people start to fight back, 1308 00:49:57,100 --> 00:49:58,570 and that's why people object. 1309 00:49:58,570 --> 00:50:00,790 But on – JORDAN And your attempts to regulate 1310 00:50:00,790 --> 00:50:02,920 my language use and your repeated – NICHOLAS: I don't care about 1311 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,450 your language use. I care about the 1312 00:50:04,450 --> 00:50:07,510 safety of the people who are being harmed. 1313 00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:09,580 JORDAN: I know. People who make your kinds of 1314 00:50:09,580 --> 00:50:10,900 arguments are always concerned with 1315 00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:12,730 other people's safety. NICHOLAS: I'm concerned with 1316 00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:13,410 my own safety. 1317 00:50:13,410 --> 00:50:15,690 My – Just so that people are aware, 1318 00:50:15,690 --> 00:50:18,990 my physical, emotional, life, and livelihood 1319 00:50:18,990 --> 00:50:21,240 is at risk from being here. And that's not true of everyone. 1320 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,610 JORDAN: In comparison to mine, say. NICHOLAS: I don't know about 1321 00:50:23,610 --> 00:50:25,980 yours, because I don't live your life. JORDAN: Yes you do. You know perfectly well about mine. 1322 00:50:25,980 --> 00:50:27,420 You know about the letter. NICHOLAS: I do know that you have tenure and that that's 1323 00:50:27,420 --> 00:50:29,310 one of the major ways that you're able 1324 00:50:29,310 --> 00:50:32,010 to do this. But I just want people to be 1325 00:50:32,010 --> 00:50:35,130 aware that trans-and gender-diverse 1326 00:50:35,130 --> 00:50:37,680 communities – and especially people of color – 1327 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,230 are being targeted and threatened physically. 1328 00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:42,270 So, free speech is a great 1329 00:50:42,270 --> 00:50:44,550 idea and equality is a great idea, 1330 00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:45,630 but we actually can't have those conversations 1331 00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:47,850 when people are not even able to be present. 1332 00:50:47,850 --> 00:50:49,740 STEVE: Jordan, let me read this tweet to you, 1333 00:50:49,740 --> 00:50:50,670 and I'll get you to respond to 1334 00:50:50,670 --> 00:50:52,710 it because I think it's instructive of 1335 00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:53,940 the conversation that just took place 1336 00:50:53,940 --> 00:50:55,920 between the two of you. 1337 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:56,700 "Can someone please explain 1338 00:50:56,700 --> 00:50:58,290 to Jordan B Peterson that there's a 1339 00:50:58,290 --> 00:50:59,760 difference between freedom of speech and 1340 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,190 freedom from consequence?" Do you agree 1341 00:51:02,190 --> 00:51:04,080 there's a difference? JORDAN: Well, certainly 1342 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:05,370 there's a difference. STEVE: And are you 1343 00:51:05,370 --> 00:51:06,930 prepared to suffer the consequences that 1344 00:51:06,930 --> 00:51:08,970 society may deem you need to suffer 1345 00:51:08,970 --> 00:51:12,180 because of your views? 1346 00:51:12,180 --> 00:51:13,230 JORDAN: Yes, I'm prepared to do that. So – 1347 00:51:13,230 --> 00:51:15,150 STEVE: What does that entail? NICHOLAS: Are you open open to learning? 1348 00:51:15,150 --> 00:51:17,130 STEVE: Well, hang on. JORDAN: That's not the question. 1349 00:51:17,130 --> 00:51:18,390 STEVE: Hang on. That that wasn't the question. NICHOLAS: That's true. 1350 00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:21,030 JORDAN: Well, so what am I willing to do? 1351 00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:23,340 Well, I think that the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal 1352 00:51:23,340 --> 00:51:26,130 is probably obligated, 1353 00:51:26,130 --> 00:51:28,740 by their own tangled web, to bring me in 1354 00:51:28,740 --> 00:51:30,840 front of it. If they fine me, I won't pay it. 1355 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,640 If they put me in jail, I'll go on a hunger strike. 1356 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,000 I'm not doing this. 1357 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,940 And that's that. I'm not using the words that 1358 00:51:38,940 --> 00:51:40,260 other people require me to use – 1359 00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:43,170 especially if they're made up by radical 1360 00:51:43,170 --> 00:51:44,400 left-wing ideologues. 1361 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,680 Now, if our society comes to some sort of 1362 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,540 consensus over the next while about how 1363 00:51:48,540 --> 00:51:50,880 we'll solve the pronoun problem – 1364 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,820 let's call it – and that becomes part of popular parlance, 1365 00:51:53,820 --> 00:51:55,380 and it seems to solve the 1366 00:51:55,380 --> 00:51:57,420 problem properly without sacrificing the 1367 00:51:57,420 --> 00:51:59,100 distinction between singular and plural, 1368 00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:01,590 and without requiring me to memorize 1369 00:52:01,590 --> 00:52:04,080 an impossible list of an indefinite number of pronouns, 1370 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,610 then I would be willing to 1371 00:52:05,610 --> 00:52:08,280 reconsider my position. But I'm also 1372 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,460 partly opposed to this because it's been 1373 00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:13,260 made mandatory and has the whole weight 1374 00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:14,850 of the law behind it. It's like this is a 1375 00:52:14,850 --> 00:52:17,100 very bad idea. I believe this is a very 1376 00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,290 bad idea. And I believe that the reason 1377 00:52:19,290 --> 00:52:21,330 this has caused so much noise – 1378 00:52:21,330 --> 00:52:22,740 tremendous amount of noise – tremendous amount of 1379 00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:24,540 attention on YouTube – is because there 1380 00:52:24,540 --> 00:52:26,700 are things that are at stake 1381 00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:28,950 in this discussion – despite its surface nature – 1382 00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:31,110 that strike at the very 1383 00:52:31,110 --> 00:52:33,480 heart of our civilization. That's what I believe. 1384 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,690 STEVE: Do you have tenure? JORDAN: I do. 1385 00:52:36,690 --> 00:52:39,180 STEVE: So, they can't fire you for this. JORDAN: Well, it's 1386 00:52:39,180 --> 00:52:40,680 not all that easy to figure out what 1387 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,350 people can and can't do. If I'm – 1388 00:52:43,350 --> 00:52:48,510 Certainly, they could fire me if I was – let's say – 1389 00:52:48,510 --> 00:52:50,550 if the hate-speech allegations, 1390 00:52:50,550 --> 00:52:52,950 so to speak, stuck. I mean, the university – Look. 1391 00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:54,750 The university's been quite reasonable 1392 00:52:54,750 --> 00:52:56,250 about this, especially compared to many universities. 1393 00:52:56,250 --> 00:52:58,140 STEVE: Actually – JORDAN: We're going to have a debate. 1394 00:52:58,140 --> 00:52:59,340 STEVE: I was just going to say – We've got a minute left and 1395 00:52:59,340 --> 00:53:00,540 do want to give it to Jordan JORDAN: Yeah. Okay. 1396 00:53:00,540 --> 00:53:02,720 STEVE: Because the university has not said entirely, 1397 00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:04,980 "Shut up. We don't want to hear this anymore." 1398 00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:06,450 JORDAN: No. But I went and 1399 00:53:06,450 --> 00:53:08,070 talked to the dean on Friday. And I sat 1400 00:53:08,070 --> 00:53:09,690 down with my family and I thought, 1401 00:53:09,690 --> 00:53:11,640 "Okay. What would be the best way for this 1402 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,370 to go for everyone – for me and and for my 1403 00:53:14,370 --> 00:53:15,840 students and for the university and for society?" 1404 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,280 I thought, "Okay. Well, really 1405 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,500 obviously, there's an issue here – 1406 00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:21,000 several of them – because otherwise, all of this 1407 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,950 noise wouldn't have emerged. So we should 1408 00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:24,300 actually have a debate about it." STEVE: And that's happening. 1409 00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:25,980 JORDAN: Yes. So I went and 1410 00:53:25,980 --> 00:53:27,840 talked to the Dean, David Cameron, who is 1411 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,750 a very reasonable person and I said, 1412 00:53:30,750 --> 00:53:32,610 "Look, well, I think the University of Toronto 1413 00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:33,990 should take a leadership position on this. 1414 00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:35,850 And there's issues to be discussed here. 1415 00:53:35,850 --> 00:53:38,220 STEVE: So who are you debating? 1416 00:53:38,220 --> 00:53:40,740 JORDAN: Hah! Well, that remains to be seen. 1417 00:53:40,740 --> 00:53:42,480 I haven't seen people flooding out of the woodwork to debate me so far. 1418 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,250 STEVE: You have a date, place, and time yet? 1419 00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:46,110 JORDAN: Um, we don't. It'll be on the campus. 1420 00:53:46,110 --> 00:53:47,820 It'll probably be on a 1421 00:53:47,820 --> 00:53:49,830 morning in the next two weeks. 1422 00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:52,170 STEVE: Okay. You let me know we'll tweet it out there. 1423 00:53:52,170 --> 00:53:54,510 JORDAN: I will let you know. Absolutely. STEVE: Okay. That's our time 1424 00:53:54,510 --> 00:53:56,220 I'm afraid, everybody. I do want to thank 1425 00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:57,720 everybody for coming in tonight. 1426 00:53:57,720 --> 00:53:59,100 And I hope you found it was worth your while. 1427 00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:01,650 We certainly found it, I think, a very useful exercise. 1428 00:54:01,650 --> 00:54:04,530 NICHOLAS: Can I [inaudible] resources for people? STEVE: Sorry? 1429 00:54:04,530 --> 00:54:06,450 NICHOLAS: People who just watched this program may be really 1430 00:54:06,450 --> 00:54:09,060 in need of something. STEVE: Sure. You've got a website? 1431 00:54:09,060 --> 00:54:10,110 I would really encourage people to go to 1432 00:54:10,110 --> 00:54:12,270 transformingjustice.ca. It's a 1433 00:54:12,270 --> 00:54:14,730 current research initiative that will 1434 00:54:14,730 --> 00:54:16,740 appeal to anyone with any interest in 1435 00:54:16,740 --> 00:54:18,090 research and learning. STEVE: Say it again. 1436 00:54:18,090 --> 00:54:20,310 BOTH: transformingjustice.ca. 1437 00:54:20,310 --> 00:54:21,540 STEVE: We are happy to put that out there. 1438 00:54:21,540 --> 00:54:23,610 NICHOLAS: Thank you. STEVE: Theryn Meyer, the trans pundit and 1439 00:54:23,610 --> 00:54:25,350 Youtuber in Vancouver; Kyle Kirkup, 1440 00:54:25,350 --> 00:54:26,850 the professor of law at the University of Ottawa; 1441 00:54:26,850 --> 00:54:28,950 we thank both of you for being outside 1442 00:54:28,950 --> 00:54:30,540 our studio but part of our broadcast tonight. 1443 00:54:30,540 --> 00:54:32,310 Jordan Peterson of the U of T; 1444 00:54:32,310 --> 00:54:35,370 Nick Matte, from the U of T; Mary Rogan, 1445 00:54:35,370 --> 00:54:37,020 you can read more about this in her piece, 1446 00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:38,640 "Growing Up Trans," in the October issue 1447 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,890 of Walrus magazine, on 1448 00:54:40,890 --> 00:54:43,170 better bookstore and corner-store stands 1449 00:54:43,170 --> 00:54:45,739 everywhere. Thanks so much, everybody. 1450 00:54:45,739 --> 00:54:50,549 GUESTS: Thank you. NARRATOR: Help TVO create a better 1451 00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:52,339 world through the power of learning. 1452 00:54:52,339 --> 00:54:59,000 Visit tvo.org and make a tax-deductible donation today.