0:00:01.400,0:00:03.440
STEVE PAIKIN: What's in a name? Potentially, a great deal.

0:00:03.440,0:00:06.020
University of Toronto psychology

0:00:06.020,0:00:08.119
professor, Jordan Peterson, has a fight on

0:00:08.119,0:00:10.219
his hands after objecting to proposed

0:00:10.219,0:00:12.259
legislation that he says would violate

0:00:12.259,0:00:14.539
his freedom of speech by forcing him to

0:00:14.539,0:00:17.000
address transgendered people using the

0:00:17.000,0:00:19.400
pronouns of their choosing. Joining us

0:00:19.400,0:00:20.839
now to better understand the issue and

0:00:20.839,0:00:24.740
debate what's at stake: in Vancouver, British Columbia,

0:00:24.740,0:00:27.109
Theryn Meyer, transgender pundit and

0:00:27.109,0:00:29.509
YouTuber. In the nation's capital,

0:00:29.509,0:00:31.579
Kyle Kirkup, professor of law at the

0:00:31.579,0:00:34.039
University of Ottawa. And here in studio,

0:00:34.039,0:00:35.780
the aforementioned Jordan Peterson,

0:00:35.780,0:00:37.850
professor of psychology, University of Toronto.

0:00:37.850,0:00:40.100
Nicholas Matte, lecturer,

0:00:40.100,0:00:42.949
transgender studies at U of T.

0:00:42.949,0:00:45.289
And Mary Rogan, whose article entitled,

0:00:45.289,0:00:47.539
"Growing Up Trans" is featured in the October issue

0:00:47.539,0:00:50.210
of the Walrus magazine. Good to have you

0:00:50.210,0:00:51.710
three here and our two friends in

0:00:51.710,0:00:53.120
points beyond. We appreciate everybody

0:00:53.120,0:00:55.640
being on the program for what is, I think,

0:00:55.640,0:00:57.140
one of the hottest topics in the country

0:00:57.140,0:00:58.879
today, Professor Peterson – and it's all

0:00:58.879,0:01:02.000
because of you. And I think before we go

0:01:02.000,0:01:03.949
any further with our conversation here,

0:01:03.949,0:01:06.770
I want to give people a sense of how hot

0:01:06.770,0:01:09.860
this has got starting on the downtown

0:01:09.860,0:01:11.450
campus of the University of Toronto.

0:01:11.450,0:01:14.350
Sheldon if you would, roll it.

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[audience members chanting] JORDAN PETERSON: Okay.

0:01:22.680,0:01:24.510
JORDAN: Well as you can see, the opponents of

0:01:24.510,0:01:26.930
free speech are capable of making a lot of

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inarticulate noise. Free speech is the

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mechanism by which we keep our society functioning.

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AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hear, hear.[br]AUDIENCE MEMBER: And by doing this, you're imposing –

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Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait![br]No! No! No! Not cool. Not cool.

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AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm going to post this online – [br]JORDAN: That's fine.[br]

0:01:45.210,0:01:47.330
AUDIENCE MEMBER: – that you would[br]like people to not – to be more

0:01:47.330,0:01:50.110
accommodating of trans people and people[br]of color at your events in the future.

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JORDAN: I would like there to be no violence.

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AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am a person of color.[br]I am a person of color and I felt very accommodated here.

0:01:56.160,0:01:58.470
AUDIENCE MEMBER: There have been multiple [br]reported instances of trans people

0:01:58.470,0:02:04.300
killing themselves because[br]they are not being integrated into society.

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AUDIENCE MEMBER: If it wasn't for this law,

0:02:06.119,0:02:08.529
and I asked you to refer to me with [br]they/them pronouns, would you?

0:02:08.529,0:02:10.199
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why do you have[br]the authority to determine

0:02:10.199,0:02:12.690
whether or not an individual is worthy

0:02:12.690,0:02:15.930
of you using their pronouns? Like, if I

0:02:15.930,0:02:17.400
asked you, "Would you please use they/them

0:02:17.400,0:02:19.400
pronouns for me?" what –

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JORDAN: It would it would depend on[br]what I thought of your motivation.

0:02:21.410,0:02:23.720
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What hoops[br]do you want us to jump through?

0:02:23.720,0:02:25.530
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Those are my pronouns.

0:02:25.530,0:02:26.520
STEVE: Okay, with indulgence

0:02:26.520,0:02:27.840
of everybody else on the program,

0:02:27.840,0:02:29.340
I'm going to start with Professor Peterson off

0:02:29.340,0:02:31.380
the top here for a while because, as I

0:02:31.380,0:02:34.050
suggested, you thought long and hard

0:02:34.050,0:02:37.200
about this. You posted a few things up to

0:02:37.200,0:02:40.020
YouTube because you had been thinking

0:02:40.020,0:02:42.570
long and hard about it. One-and-a-half

0:02:42.570,0:02:45.660
million hits later, Jordan – one and a half

0:02:45.660,0:02:48.570
million hits later – this has become a

0:02:48.570,0:02:50.910
huge issue. So let's start there. Why did

0:02:50.910,0:02:54.060
you post those views to YouTube in the first place?

0:02:54.060,0:02:57.180
JORDAN: Well, there's proximate and distal reasons.

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The proximate reasons were

0:02:58.890,0:03:00.720
because I received some correspondence

0:03:00.720,0:03:04.890
from clients of mine who had

0:03:04.890,0:03:09.030
been, I would say, persecuted in a variety

0:03:09.030,0:03:10.860
of ways by people who were politically correct.

0:03:10.860,0:03:13.890
And they sent me some

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documentation about Bill C16 and the

0:03:16.410,0:03:18.150
associated policy statements on the

0:03:18.150,0:03:19.739
Ontario Human Rights Commission, which I

0:03:19.739,0:03:24.200
read and was not very happy about.

0:03:24.200,0:03:26.760
And also because the University of Toronto

0:03:26.760,0:03:28.709
decided to make anti-racism and

0:03:28.709,0:03:30.930
anti-bias training – so-called anti-racism and

0:03:30.930,0:03:33.600
anti-bias training – mandatory, which I

0:03:33.600,0:03:37.530
regarded as an inappropriate incursion into the domain of political

0:03:37.530,0:03:39.150
opinion by the university administration.

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STEVE: Have you taken that training yet? JORDAN: No, and

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I don't have to yet. It's the HR

0:03:43.800,0:03:45.600
department personnel that have to take it.

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STEVE: If they decide that you have to, will you?

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JORDAN: No way. Not a chance.

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STEVE: Okay. And what's the other – You referred to

0:03:50.850,0:03:52.350
persecution that friends or clients of

0:03:52.350,0:03:55.670
yours had experienced. Such as?[br]JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. Well

0:03:55.670,0:03:58.410
there are lots of places now where the

0:03:58.410,0:03:59.850
workplace has become, I would say,

0:03:59.850,0:04:01.890
excessively politicized. And so, people

0:04:01.890,0:04:03.780
who have viewpoints – And this also

0:04:03.780,0:04:06.180
involves – includes, I would say, fairly

0:04:06.180,0:04:08.490
radical leftist viewpoints. People don't

0:04:08.490,0:04:11.490
feel comfortable at all in being

0:04:11.490,0:04:12.870
able to use the language of their choice

0:04:12.870,0:04:15.270
or to have even opinions about a variety

0:04:15.270,0:04:18.988
of different things. And so I've had

0:04:18.988,0:04:20.959
three clients who, I would say, have been

0:04:20.959,0:04:26.670
we'll say "harassed," I suppose, is the right

0:04:26.670,0:04:27.450
way of putting it.

0:04:27.450,0:04:29.430
STEVE: In social media or otherwise?[br]JORDAN: No, at work. At work.

0:04:29.430,0:04:32.100
STEVE: At work.[br]JORDAN: At work by people who

0:04:32.100,0:04:34.530
don't like their political opinions essentially.

0:04:34.530,0:04:37.820
STEVE: And the opinions were what?

0:04:37.820,0:04:39.960
JORDAN: Well, I can't tell you too much about it,

0:04:39.960,0:04:42.030
actually, because of issues –

0:04:42.030,0:04:44.480
fundamental issues of confidentiality.[br]STEVE: All right. Give us –

0:04:44.480,0:04:46.320
Essentially, I guess what I'm asking is

0:04:46.320,0:04:48.510
to lay the case out. JORDAN: Well, one of –[br]STEVE: What is it

0:04:48.510,0:04:50.450
you find offensive about this legislation?

0:04:50.450,0:04:51.600
JORDAN: Well, fundamentally, there

0:04:51.600,0:04:53.070
were two things that really bothered me,

0:04:53.070,0:04:54.240
although there have been other things

0:04:54.240,0:04:56.340
I've thought about since. One was that I

0:04:56.340,0:04:59.250
was being asked, as everyone is, to use a

0:04:59.250,0:05:01.020
certain set of words that I think are

0:05:01.020,0:05:02.490
the constructions of people who have a

0:05:02.490,0:05:04.170
political ideology that I don't believe

0:05:04.170,0:05:06.290
in and that I also regard as dangerous.

0:05:06.290,0:05:08.320
STEVE: What are those words?[br]JORDAN: Those are

0:05:08.320,0:05:09.930
the made-up words that

0:05:09.930,0:05:13.200
people now describe as gender-neutral.

0:05:13.200,0:05:16.650
And so, to me, they're

0:05:16.650,0:05:18.930
an attempt to control language

0:05:18.930,0:05:22.320
and in a direction that isn't happening organically,

0:05:22.320,0:05:23.730
it's not happening naturally,

0:05:23.730,0:05:25.770
people aren't picking up these words in

0:05:25.770,0:05:27.240
the typical way that new words are

0:05:27.240,0:05:29.480
picked up, but by force and by fiat.

0:05:29.480,0:05:31.110
And I would say by force because there's

0:05:31.110,0:05:33.810
legislative power behind them.[br]STEVE: So just so we're [clear] –

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JORDAN: And I don't like these made-up words[br]– ze, and zer and that

0:05:36.270,0:05:38.040
sort of thing.[br]STEVE: Okay. What about the – They're not

0:05:38.040,0:05:40.000
all made up – quote-unquote made-up words.

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JORDAN: Yeah.[br]STEVE: For example, "they" is one of them –

0:05:41.820,0:05:43.380
to speak to an individual as they.

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JORDAN: Yes, right. But we can't dispense with

0:05:45.210,0:05:46.800
the distinction between singular and plural.

0:05:46.800,0:05:48.900
I mean, I know that the advocates of that

0:05:48.900,0:05:50.550
particular approach say that "they" has

0:05:50.550,0:05:52.350
been used forever as a singular, and

0:05:52.350,0:05:54.509
that's actually not correct. It's used as

0:05:54.509,0:05:55.919
a singular in very exceptional

0:05:55.919,0:05:58.410
circumstances. Like, "If your child wishes

0:05:58.410,0:06:00.210
to bring a book to school, they're

0:06:00.210,0:06:02.610
welcome to do so." But "they" –[br]STEVE: That's just

0:06:02.610,0:06:05.729
grammatically incorrect.[br]JORDAN: Well, it is also. There's some

0:06:05.729,0:06:07.500
debate about that because it is – "they" is

0:06:07.500,0:06:09.750
used like that sometimes. But it's never

0:06:09.750,0:06:11.789
been used as a singular replacement

0:06:11.789,0:06:14.190
for he or she. STEVE: All right.[br]JORDAN: And so it's not a

0:06:14.190,0:06:16.440
tenable solution. And that's the best of

0:06:16.440,0:06:18.000
the solutions.[br]STEVE: So, we understand your

0:06:18.000,0:06:19.710
views and where you're coming from.

0:06:19.710,0:06:22.440
You've decided to lay these views out in

0:06:22.440,0:06:26.010
some YouTube discourses. JORDAN: Yes.[br]STEVE: You put them up.

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The response has been overwhelming.

0:06:27.419,0:06:29.610
JORDAN: Yes.[br]STEVE: Did you anticipate that you would get

0:06:29.610,0:06:31.380
this kind of feedback?[br]JORDAN: No, there was no

0:06:31.380,0:06:33.330
way of anticipating this. And I think – You

0:06:33.330,0:06:34.680
mentioned in the intro that

0:06:34.680,0:06:36.419
this is a consequence of what I've done.

0:06:36.419,0:06:38.639
And I don't think that's true. It's a

0:06:38.639,0:06:40.949
consequence of the fact – I thought

0:06:40.949,0:06:42.270
about it, and I think the right metaphor

0:06:42.270,0:06:44.970
is that there's a large forest,

0:06:44.970,0:06:47.669
and it's been a hot, dry summer, or maybe

0:06:47.669,0:06:49.650
a drought, and there's plenty of dead

0:06:49.650,0:06:52.050
wood gathered, and I lit a spark. And you

0:06:52.050,0:06:54.180
can't blame the forest fire on the spark.

0:06:54.180,0:06:57.570
It's just not possible for

0:06:57.570,0:06:59.340
someone to put up a YouTube video and

0:06:59.340,0:07:02.039
cause this kind of brouhaha without all

0:07:02.039,0:07:03.479
of the groundwork already being laid.

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STEVE: Fair enough. There is clearly –

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There is out there an appetite

0:07:08.099,0:07:10.199
against political correctness, which is

0:07:10.199,0:07:11.699
what you have described this as. In fact,

0:07:11.699,0:07:13.560
your YouTube video is called

0:07:13.560,0:07:15.479
"Professor Against Political Correctness."[br]JORDAN: Mm-hmm. STEVE: But let's

0:07:15.479,0:07:16.620
make sure we're all speaking the same

0:07:16.620,0:07:19.010
language here. You would define that how?

0:07:19.010,0:07:21.720
Political correctness?[br]JORDAN: Well, I think it's

0:07:21.720,0:07:23.909
a particular kind of ideological game. And I

0:07:23.909,0:07:25.860
think the outcome is twofold.

0:07:25.860,0:07:27.539
It's to make the player feel morally superior,

0:07:27.539,0:07:31.680
and also to take rather serious ax swings

0:07:31.680,0:07:34.169
at the foundation of society.

0:07:34.169,0:07:36.840
And so, the game is identify a domain of

0:07:36.840,0:07:39.419
human endeavor, note that there's a

0:07:39.419,0:07:41.760
distribution of success – some people are

0:07:41.760,0:07:43.139
doing comparatively better and some

0:07:43.139,0:07:44.659
people are doing comparatively worse –

0:07:44.659,0:07:47.389
define those doing worse as victims,

0:07:47.389,0:07:49.380
define those doing better as

0:07:49.380,0:07:52.139
perpetrators, identify with the victims,

0:07:52.139,0:07:55.260
have yourself a set of enemies handy to

0:07:55.260,0:07:57.599
vent your resentment on, feel good about

0:07:57.599,0:07:59.099
it even though it didn't really require

0:07:59.099,0:08:02.639
any work on your part, and then endlessly repeat.

0:08:02.639,0:08:04.050
And that's why – I've seen that happening

0:08:04.050,0:08:05.939
on campuses, in particular, for the last 30 years.

0:08:05.939,0:08:08.189
STEVE: In your YouTube talk, you

0:08:08.189,0:08:10.740
describe those who oppose you on this

0:08:10.740,0:08:13.259
issue as "resentful and uninformed."

0:08:13.259,0:08:14.699
JORDAN: Yes.[br]STEVE: Tell me why you think that's accurate.

0:08:14.699,0:08:18.029
JORDAN: Well, I worked for the NDP when

0:08:18.029,0:08:19.800
I was a kid –[br]STEVE: Okay. JORDAN: From the time I

0:08:19.800,0:08:21.689
was 14 to the time I was 18.

0:08:21.689,0:08:23.639
I worked with Rachel Notley's father and her mother,

0:08:23.639,0:08:26.550
and knew them very well. And I

0:08:26.550,0:08:28.259
actually found them very admirable

0:08:28.259,0:08:29.969
people, as well as the other people

0:08:29.969,0:08:31.499
on the socialist end of the

0:08:31.499,0:08:33.000
distribution who were genuinely working

0:08:33.000,0:08:35.159
for the rights of working-class

0:08:35.159,0:08:37.169
people – coming out of that Saskatchewan

0:08:37.169,0:08:38.640
tradition that established health care

0:08:38.640,0:08:40.740
and pension and all of that. But I noted,

0:08:40.740,0:08:42.029
at the same time, that the party

0:08:42.029,0:08:44.370
functionaries, let's say, weren't that

0:08:44.370,0:08:45.810
sort of person at all. They didn't really

0:08:45.810,0:08:47.250
like the working class. They weren't

0:08:47.250,0:08:48.390
standing up for them. And I couldn't

0:08:48.390,0:08:50.519
quite put my finger on it until I read

0:08:50.519,0:08:52.410
George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier,"

0:08:52.410,0:08:54.540
which is a brilliant book and which was

0:08:54.540,0:08:56.699
written for the Left Book Club in the UK.

0:08:56.699,0:08:59.010
And he was talking about the failures of

0:08:59.010,0:09:01.170
socialism in the United Kingdom,

0:09:01.170,0:09:02.820
and then discussed intellectual

0:09:02.820,0:09:05.010
socialists of the type who didn't

0:09:05.010,0:09:08.010
exactly like the poor – STEVE: Okay.[br]JORDAN: They just hated the rich.

0:09:08.010,0:09:11.040
STEVE: "Resentful and uninformed," though?

0:09:11.040,0:09:13.560
JORDAN: Yes. Well, the resentful part is the

0:09:13.560,0:09:16.380
willingness to pull down any structure

0:09:16.380,0:09:18.570
that's hierarchical because of

0:09:18.570,0:09:20.550
resentment about not being on the top.

0:09:20.550,0:09:24.140
And uninformed is, well, it's the

0:09:24.140,0:09:26.279
consistent attempt to force every

0:09:26.279,0:09:29.459
political issue into a single –

0:09:29.459,0:09:31.260
into the domain encompassed and viewed

0:09:31.260,0:09:33.480
through this single lens.[br]STEVE: Jordan, let's do

0:09:33.480,0:09:34.589
one more question here, and then we'll

0:09:34.589,0:09:36.060
get everybody else into the conversation.

0:09:36.060,0:09:38.250
You know, of course, that since this story broke,

0:09:38.250,0:09:40.050
you've been called a lot of things –

0:09:40.050,0:09:43.769
JORDAN: Yep. STEVE: – one of which is a "transphobe."[br]JORDAN: Yeah.

0:09:43.769,0:09:47.310
STEVE: Some people have accused you of using

0:09:47.310,0:09:49.079
the free-speech issue to mask what's

0:09:49.079,0:09:50.880
really going on here, which is an attempt

0:09:50.880,0:09:53.100
to deprive other people of what they

0:09:53.100,0:09:55.500
believe are their legitimate rights.[br]JORDAN: Well, I can –

0:09:55.500,0:09:56.850
STEVE: And I want to give you the opportunity to speak

0:09:56.850,0:09:58.350
to whether or not you are a transphobe.

0:09:58.350,0:10:00.000
JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that

0:10:00.000,0:10:01.170
I've received more letters from

0:10:01.170,0:10:03.300
transsexual people supporting me than

0:10:03.300,0:10:05.699
opposing me. And I never said anything,

0:10:05.699,0:10:07.680
really, about transsexual people,

0:10:07.680,0:10:09.089
about their existence, although that was the

0:10:09.089,0:10:10.680
first thing that I was accused of doing.

0:10:10.680,0:10:13.110
I didn't say that transsexual people

0:10:13.110,0:10:16.410
didn't exist. I said that gender identity, gender expression,

0:10:16.410,0:10:18.390
and biological sex do not vary

0:10:18.390,0:10:21.270
independently, which they don't. And so,

0:10:21.270,0:10:23.610
this issue is, in some sense,

0:10:23.610,0:10:26.160
only peripherally about about transsexual issues.

0:10:26.160,0:10:28.560
It's more essentially about

0:10:28.560,0:10:31.350
gender issues. And, then on top of that –

0:10:31.350,0:10:33.180
and I think it's the biggest issue –

0:10:33.180,0:10:35.670
is that it's a free speech issue. So –[br]STEVE: Okay.

0:10:35.670,0:10:38.130
Let us continue to explore all of those

0:10:38.130,0:10:41.370
issues that you have just raised and –

0:10:41.370,0:10:42.510
Why don't we do this? Let's take a moment.

0:10:42.510,0:10:43.860
We're gonna explain a few basic things here.

0:10:43.860,0:10:45.750
The issue of so-called

0:10:45.750,0:10:47.250
non-traditional pronouns goes together

0:10:47.250,0:10:49.170
with non-traditional gender identities.

0:10:49.170,0:10:52.560
New York City, for example, recognizes 31

0:10:52.560,0:10:54.990
such gender expressions. In other words,

0:10:54.990,0:10:57.590
besides "man" and "woman," there are 29 other

0:10:57.590,0:11:00.540
gender expressions. For example, "pangender,"

0:11:00.540,0:11:03.180
"queer gender," "gender fluid," "crossdresser,"

0:11:03.180,0:11:05.730
"bi-gendered," "gender blender," and the list goes on.

0:11:05.730,0:11:07.530
And Nicholas, this is where I

0:11:07.530,0:11:08.370
want to bring you into the discussion

0:11:08.370,0:11:11.130
because you teach this. You teach trans studies.

0:11:11.130,0:11:13.440
So, if you would, give us a brief

0:11:13.440,0:11:17.040
primer on so many gender identities that,

0:11:17.040,0:11:20.040
in your view, require non-traditional pronouns.

0:11:20.040,0:11:24.690
NICHOLAS MATTE: Basically, it's not correct that

0:11:24.690,0:11:26.460
there is such a thing as biological sex.

0:11:26.460,0:11:28.350
And I'm a historian of medicine.

0:11:28.350,0:11:30.510
I can unpack that for you at great length if

0:11:30.510,0:11:32.280
you want. But in the interest of time,

0:11:32.280,0:11:34.530
I won't. So that's a very popular misconception.

0:11:34.530,0:11:36.750
So, essentially, in my

0:11:36.750,0:11:38.640
transgender studies classes, what we're

0:11:38.640,0:11:40.500
doing is looking at actual research and

0:11:40.500,0:11:43.440
identifying ways that current social

0:11:43.440,0:11:45.750
issues related to trans people or things

0:11:45.750,0:11:47.550
that are associated with trans, such as

0:11:47.550,0:11:50.370
free-speech arguments and claims,

0:11:50.370,0:11:52.350
how that connects to the way that people are thinking,

0:11:52.350,0:11:54.010
the way that research has been

0:11:54.010,0:11:55.740
framed, the histories have been framed.[br]STEVE: Give us some of

0:11:55.740,0:11:57.270
the other pronouns that one would hear – typically.

0:11:57.270,0:11:59.340
NICHOLAS: I don't focus on pronouns

0:11:59.340,0:12:00.990
because pronouns are actually part of

0:12:00.990,0:12:03.300
a cisnormative culture. So what we do is learn about –

0:12:03.300,0:12:04.860
STEVE: I'm gonna stop you right there.

0:12:04.860,0:12:06.660
NICHOLAS: Yes, I was just about to explain.[br]STEVE: Good.

0:12:06.660,0:12:07.980
NICHOLAS: So, we don't start from a cisnormative

0:12:07.980,0:12:09.750
perspective because that can't actually

0:12:09.750,0:12:11.880
go very far. STEVE: What does cisnormative mean?

0:12:11.880,0:12:13.590
NICHOLAS: So, I'm gonna start us there.

0:12:13.590,0:12:17.640
Cisnormative is basically the very popular idea and

0:12:17.640,0:12:19.380
assumption that most people probably have –

0:12:19.380,0:12:21.390
and definitely that our structures convey –

0:12:21.390,0:12:23.460
that there is such a thing as

0:12:23.460,0:12:25.440
male and female, that they connect to

0:12:25.440,0:12:28.110
being a girl or a boy or a man or a woman,

0:12:28.110,0:12:30.270
and then sometimes that will also

0:12:30.270,0:12:32.160
recognize intersex or trans people or

0:12:32.160,0:12:33.720
transsexual people, as you mentioned,

0:12:33.720,0:12:37.680
because that's – It's sometimes also referred

0:12:37.680,0:12:39.480
to as a gender binary. So, anything that

0:12:39.480,0:12:42.240
fits within a gender binary can work

0:12:42.240,0:12:44.370
within cisnormativity.[br]STEVE: Okay.

0:12:44.370,0:12:46.160
NICHOLAS: But cisnormativity is basically that everyone

0:12:46.160,0:12:48.570
assumes that there is male and female,

0:12:48.570,0:12:51.060
and so very little is actually looked at

0:12:51.060,0:12:53.540
to understand what's actually the case.

0:12:53.540,0:12:56.150
And scientists have been doing[br]this for at least over 50 years.

0:12:56.150,0:12:59.240
STEVE: Because your view would be[br]it's much more complicated than that.

0:12:59.240,0:13:00.720
NICHOLAS: Right. It's not my view,

0:13:00.720,0:13:02.040
I just know that, for over 50 years,

0:13:02.040,0:13:03.600
scientists have shown that that's not true.

0:13:03.600,0:13:05.880
And yet, our social systems haven't

0:13:05.880,0:13:08.410
been able to find a way to address

0:13:08.410,0:13:10.850
the level of complexity that people actually experience.

0:13:10.850,0:13:12.730
JORDAN: At what point can I step in, Steve?[br]

0:13:12.730,0:13:13.890
STEVE: Stand by for a second –[br]JORDAN: Okay.

0:13:13.890,0:13:16.590
STEVE: – because I want to let everybody else[br]get in first, and then we'll get you in.

0:13:16.590,0:13:18.010
NICHOLAS: And I didn't interrupt you either, so –[br]

0:13:18.010,0:13:19.810
STEVE: Mary, how prevalent [br]is transgenderism in our world?

0:13:19.810,0:13:22.110
MARY ROGAN: I don't think I can –

0:13:22.110,0:13:23.550
I don't think I can answer that question.

0:13:23.550,0:13:26.610
I think that I would agree with Nicolas that

0:13:26.610,0:13:29.010
there is some discrepancy on these

0:13:29.010,0:13:30.480
numbers and there is some variance on

0:13:30.480,0:13:36.060
the numbers. I guess I'm curious

0:13:36.060,0:13:38.760
as to why we need need to put a

0:13:38.760,0:13:41.190
number on this. Because that's come up.

0:13:41.190,0:13:47.010
I listened to Jordan's video,

0:13:47.010,0:13:49.200
and that was something that was mentioned.

0:13:49.200,0:13:51.510
This is, statistically –

0:13:51.510,0:13:53.460
there are so few intersex people as to be –

0:13:53.460,0:13:55.390
it's insignificant.

0:13:55.390,0:13:57.500
STEVE: Well, I think there's [br]a reasonable curiosity

0:13:57.500,0:13:59.630
as to whether or not [br]we're talking about half the population

0:13:59.630,0:14:02.220
or less than 1% of the population. That's all.

0:14:02.220,0:14:04.140
MARY: No, I understand that. I guess what I'm

0:14:04.140,0:14:07.110
saying is it seems that there's a focus

0:14:07.110,0:14:10.200
on that in terms of what we know now.

0:14:10.200,0:14:12.060
And I think what Nicholas is trying to try

0:14:12.060,0:14:13.170
to say – and I don't want to

0:14:13.170,0:14:16.500
presume too much – I think that

0:14:16.500,0:14:18.180
that number is going to be something that

0:14:18.180,0:14:20.310
evolves as we evolve and our language

0:14:20.310,0:14:22.020
evolves and we give people the room to

0:14:22.020,0:14:23.280
come forward and express who they are.

0:14:23.280,0:14:25.230
STEVE: Okay. Let me – As part of that expression

0:14:25.230,0:14:28.170
and evolution of this issue, the use of

0:14:28.170,0:14:31.010
non-traditional pronouns, where are you on that?

0:14:31.010,0:14:33.360
MARY: I think[br]people should be able to

0:14:33.360,0:14:35.880
say how they want to be addressed.

0:14:35.880,0:14:38.640
I do believe that. In my own experience in

0:14:38.640,0:14:40.200
writing the Walrus piece,

0:14:40.200,0:14:43.170
I began at one place and ended at another.

0:14:43.170,0:14:45.560
And I'll let everyone pay their $7 to find out how.

0:14:45.560,0:14:47.120
STEVE: [chuckles][br]MARY: They can buy the magazine.

0:14:47.120,0:14:48.960
But I think that, for me,

0:14:48.960,0:14:52.440
identifying as male at a very late

0:14:52.440,0:14:54.990
stage in my life, I don't have –

0:14:54.990,0:14:58.350
I didn't have a lot of attachment to the pronoun "she."

0:14:58.350,0:14:59.840
You could have said "giraffe."

0:14:59.840,0:15:02.250
I had found a way at a very early age not to

0:15:02.250,0:15:06.110
even hear that word. It meant nothing to me.

0:15:06.110,0:15:08.270
So I didn't dive into the pronoun "he."

0:15:08.270,0:15:10.380
STEVE: So, if I were going to refer to you,

0:15:10.380,0:15:12.930
though, in the third person – MARY: "They."[br]STEVE: – you would want me to call you "they."

0:15:12.930,0:15:16.030
MARY: Yes.[br]STEVE: Okay. Because that encapsulates what?

0:15:16.030,0:15:19.400
MARY: I think it reflects where I am right now.

0:15:19.400,0:15:21.076
Because of my lived experience –

0:15:21.076,0:15:24.273
five decades as being identified –

0:15:24.273,0:15:26.300
certainly by the world – as female –

0:15:26.300,0:15:28.450
some of the time, not all

0:15:28.450,0:15:29.840
of the time – my lived experience was

0:15:29.840,0:15:33.830
largely female, and I personally am not

0:15:33.830,0:15:37.230
sort of ready to jump in wholly into

0:15:37.230,0:15:39.450
having people call me "he."

0:15:39.450,0:15:42.240
But I'm certainly far enough along

0:15:42.240,0:15:44.250
in terms of how I feel internally

0:15:44.250,0:15:45.890
that I don't want to be called "she."

0:15:45.890,0:15:48.360
STEVE: Understood. Let's go to British Columbia.

0:15:48.360,0:15:50.540
Theryn, I want you to help us understand

0:15:50.540,0:15:53.580
for our viewers who don't know you

0:15:53.580,0:15:55.350
and don't know your work,

0:15:55.350,0:15:59.170
I would like you to describe yourself.

0:15:59.170,0:16:02.440
THERYN: Well, I make political commentary –

0:16:02.440,0:16:05.400
mostly on YouTube.

0:16:05.400,0:16:10.470
And I mostly focus on basically countering –

0:16:10.470,0:16:13.680
with my own personal perspectives –

0:16:13.680,0:16:17.460
countering what I consider to be

0:16:17.460,0:16:20.970
the kind of hegemony surrounding –

0:16:20.970,0:16:24.300
the political hegemony – surrounding trans politics,

0:16:24.300,0:16:27.290
and what I consider to be

0:16:27.290,0:16:33.080
quite ridiculous opinions and demands

0:16:33.080,0:16:36.360
coming from what has come to be known as

0:16:36.360,0:16:39.690
kind of the political trans lobbying.

0:16:39.690,0:16:41.460
STEVE: I'm not as good at this issue

0:16:41.460,0:16:42.960
as I should be, so I'm going to look to you

0:16:42.960,0:16:46.610
to help me use the right words here

0:16:46.610,0:16:48.830
to describe how you were born

0:16:48.830,0:16:51.740
and what you see yourself as now.

0:16:51.740,0:16:56.570
So is it accurate to say you're a trans woman?

0:16:56.570,0:16:59.330
THERYN: Yes I'm, I'm – Oh [frustration].

0:16:59.330,0:17:00.659
I wish I would have lived in a world

0:17:00.659,0:17:01.960
where that was just obvious

0:17:01.960,0:17:02.959
and I don't have to explain that to people.

0:17:02.959,0:17:04.900
But, apparently, I do.

0:17:05.940,0:17:08.039
I mean, "Yes, I'm just a woman."

0:17:08.039,0:17:09.539
STEVE: Is this to say

0:17:09.539,0:17:13.029
you were born male but now are female?

0:17:13.029,0:17:16.370
THERYN: Yes. I transitioned[br]from male to female. And, yeah.

0:17:16.370,0:17:19.670
STEVE: In which case, do I refer to you –

0:17:19.670,0:17:21.560
I'm gonna ask you the same question

0:17:21.560,0:17:23.173
I asked Mary, which is

0:17:23.173,0:17:24.563
do I refer to you as her or she now?

0:17:24.563,0:17:25.566
THERYN: Yes, you do.

0:17:25.566,0:17:27.569
STEVE: I do. Okay.

0:17:27.569,0:17:29.730
And how do you relate to the experiences

0:17:29.730,0:17:31.980
that we have heard arise during this

0:17:31.980,0:17:34.890
debate where gender identities and

0:17:34.890,0:17:39.750
pronouns are up for grabs, if you like?

0:17:42.130,0:17:47.299
I am very skeptical of the ideology

0:17:47.299,0:17:50.080
surrounding gender identity.

0:17:50.080,0:17:51.510
I don't believe there are

0:17:51.510,0:17:56.000
29-plus gender identities or genders.

0:17:56.000,0:17:57.480
I believe there's male and female and

0:17:57.480,0:17:58.770
then there's somewhere in between and

0:17:58.770,0:18:03.150
most people fall along that. And just people

0:18:03.150,0:18:05.800
who are in-between does not constitute a new gender.

0:18:05.800,0:18:07.990
There are two genders – period.

0:18:07.990,0:18:12.410
And that is, biologically, a sound argument to make.

0:18:12.410,0:18:16.630
Just because the argument that was made

0:18:16.630,0:18:18.750
earlier in the show is that –

0:18:18.750,0:18:20.630
It wasn't an argument, but a claim –

0:18:20.630,0:18:23.520
that there is no such thing as biological sex.

0:18:23.520,0:18:25.750
Well, that's simply not true.

0:18:25.750,0:18:26.909
It is true that there are

0:18:26.909,0:18:29.610
multiple characteristics and there are

0:18:29.610,0:18:32.880
multiple factors that go into determining sex,

0:18:32.880,0:18:35.120
and that sex is not on-off switch –

0:18:35.120,0:18:36.880
that there is a spectrum to it,

0:18:36.880,0:18:39.920
just like with most things in nature.

0:18:39.920,0:18:41.610
Most things aren't an on-off switch.

0:18:41.610,0:18:44.290
Most things develop on a spectrum.

0:18:45.730,0:18:47.880
But for the most part,

0:18:47.880,0:18:50.580
the vast majority of people fall

0:18:50.580,0:18:54.210
either on the male side or on the female side.

0:18:54.210,0:18:56.280
And yes, it's true that scientists –

0:18:56.280,0:18:59.460
that doctors have – and researchers – have been

0:18:59.460,0:19:01.110
finding more and more factors that go into,

0:19:01.110,0:19:04.350
not only determining genetic sex,

0:19:04.350,0:19:08.380
but determining the expression of those genes.

0:19:09.660,0:19:14.900
So it's truly a fascinating, complex field of study.

0:19:14.900,0:19:16.300
But that does not mean that there is

0:19:16.300,0:19:19.600
no such thing as biological sex.[br]STEVE: Okay.

0:19:19.600,0:19:22.520
THERYN: When it comes to the issue of pronouns,

0:19:22.520,0:19:24.930
would you like me to give you my opinion on it?

0:19:24.930,0:19:26.550
STEVE: Yeah, briefly if you would because

0:19:26.550,0:19:28.000
Kyle has been the most patient person in

0:19:28.000,0:19:29.800
the world waiting for his chance to get in.

0:19:29.800,0:19:31.420
So, yes, you finish your statement and

0:19:31.420,0:19:33.500
then I'm gonna get to Kyle.

0:19:33.500,0:19:35.020
THERYN: Okay. My apologies.

0:19:35.020,0:19:36.730
Well, firstly, I have a lot of sympathy

0:19:36.730,0:19:39.250
for people who want to be referred to

0:19:39.250,0:19:41.890
by their pronouns. Obviously, as a trans woman,

0:19:41.890,0:19:45.040
I know what it feels like to be

0:19:45.040,0:19:48.910
misgendered and whatnot.

0:19:48.910,0:19:50.830
And most people are reasonable in the sense that

0:19:50.830,0:19:52.600
they would be reasonable enough

0:19:52.600,0:19:56.570
to accommodate trans people and

0:19:56.570,0:20:00.100
their preferred pronouns.

0:20:00.100,0:20:02.100
And I'm sure – I mean, I would hope that

0:20:02.100,0:20:04.490
if I were a student of Dr. Peterson,

0:20:04.490,0:20:06.730
that he would refer to me as "she"

0:20:06.730,0:20:09.040
and wouldn't have a problem with that.

0:20:09.040,0:20:10.810
But at the end of the day,

0:20:10.810,0:20:13.720
our personal-pronoun preference, it still is a preference

0:20:13.720,0:20:16.630
for what language other people use.

0:20:16.630,0:20:18.910
And at the end of the day, I don't have

0:20:18.910,0:20:22.160
ultimate control over what Dr. Peterson –

0:20:22.160,0:20:24.030
what the language he chooses to use or

0:20:24.030,0:20:24.940
anybody else for that matter.

0:20:24.940,0:20:27.220
That's up to them. And the problem arises –

0:20:27.220,0:20:28.700
STEVE: Okay. Let me find out then.

0:20:28.700,0:20:31.770
Let me find out. If she were [br]a student of yours, what would you call her?

0:20:31.770,0:20:33.570
JORDAN: "She."[br]STEVE: You would. Okay.

0:20:33.570,0:20:36.490
We've established that. Theryn, stand by

0:20:36.490,0:20:39.220
for a second now. I do want – [chuckles]

0:20:39.220,0:20:41.230
Thank you for your patience, Professor Kirkup.

0:20:41.230,0:20:43.960
And I want to bring you in now because,

0:20:43.960,0:20:45.700
as I suggested earlier, in New York City,

0:20:45.700,0:20:48.590
they have identified 31 gender identities.

0:20:48.590,0:20:50.260
And apparently the law down

0:20:50.260,0:20:51.880
there suggests that if businesses don't

0:20:51.880,0:20:54.100
accommodate an individual's chosen

0:20:54.100,0:20:56.050
gender identity, there is the risk of

0:20:56.050,0:20:59.080
a six-figure fine under the rules

0:20:59.080,0:21:01.540
of the city's Commissioner of Human Rights.

0:21:01.540,0:21:03.160
We have, in the province of Ontario

0:21:03.160,0:21:06.040
our own Ontario Human Rights Commission,

0:21:06.040,0:21:07.640
and I wonder how similar our

0:21:07.640,0:21:10.340
legislation is here on this issue

0:21:10.340,0:21:13.730
compared to what they have in New York City.

0:21:13.730,0:21:15.540
KYLE: So, where I would start the discussion

0:21:15.540,0:21:17.490
is to actually point out that

0:21:17.490,0:21:19.389
even though we're talking about adding

0:21:19.389,0:21:21.489
gender identity and gender expression to

0:21:21.489,0:21:23.589
the Canadian Human Rights Act and

0:21:23.589,0:21:25.570
provisions of the Criminal Code

0:21:25.570,0:21:27.279
this is a long-standing practice in Canadian

0:21:27.279,0:21:28.989
human-rights jurisprudence. You can go

0:21:28.989,0:21:31.199
back into the late 1990s. And the cases

0:21:31.199,0:21:33.639
that we're seeing in the tribunals are

0:21:33.639,0:21:37.450
not the kind of extreme examples of

0:21:37.450,0:21:38.889
a number of different kinds of gender pronouns.

0:21:38.889,0:21:40.959
What we're seeing is really

0:21:40.959,0:21:43.239
more basic human rights questions.

0:21:43.239,0:21:45.909
So, questions like are you required

0:21:45.909,0:21:47.799
to undergo surgery in order to have

0:21:47.799,0:21:51.639
an identity document that properly captures

0:21:51.639,0:21:52.899
who you are as a person?

0:21:52.899,0:21:55.739
Discrimination in policing contexts,

0:21:55.739,0:21:57.639
discrimination in the workplace.

0:21:57.639,0:21:59.609
And so, I think the pronoun issue

0:21:59.609,0:22:00.969
is really a red herring.

0:22:00.969,0:22:03.269
When you look through the jurisprudence

0:22:03.269,0:22:04.859
dating back to the 1990s,

0:22:04.859,0:22:07.929
we're seeing much more fundamental questions –

0:22:07.929,0:22:09.759
really basic human rights questions –

0:22:09.759,0:22:11.469
that are coming before the tribunals.

0:22:11.469,0:22:15.149
And having reviewed the case law,

0:22:15.149,0:22:17.669
I'm not seeing the kind of New York scenario

0:22:17.669,0:22:19.470
that you're proposing at all.

0:22:19.470,0:22:20.760
STEVE: Well, let me read some of

0:22:20.760,0:22:22.059
the Ontario Human Rights Code to you

0:22:22.059,0:22:24.489
and then I'll get your feedback on that.

0:22:24.489,0:22:26.390
"Discrimination," the Human Rights Code

0:22:26.390,0:22:28.779
says, "happens when a person experiences

0:22:28.779,0:22:31.549
negative treatment or impact, intentional or not,

0:22:31.549,0:22:33.359
because of their gender identity

0:22:33.359,0:22:35.559
or gender expression. It can be direct

0:22:35.559,0:22:37.959
and obvious or subtle and hidden,

0:22:37.959,0:22:40.299
but harmful just the same. It can also happen

0:22:40.299,0:22:42.369
on a bigger systemic level such as

0:22:42.369,0:22:44.619
organizational rules or policies that

0:22:44.619,0:22:48.039
look neutral but end up excluding trans people. ...

0:22:48.039,0:22:49.839
Organizations are liable for any

0:22:49.839,0:22:52.219
discrimination and harassment that happens.

0:22:52.219,0:22:53.679
They are also liable for not

0:22:53.679,0:22:56.109
accommodating a trans person's needs

0:22:56.109,0:22:59.249
unless it would cause undue hardship."

0:22:59.249,0:23:01.419
And again, Kyle, I'll get you to follow up on

0:23:01.419,0:23:05.200
that inasmuch as if a trans person or

0:23:05.200,0:23:07.980
somebody whose gender identity was more,

0:23:07.980,0:23:09.459
shall we say, complicated than the male/female

0:23:09.459,0:23:11.649
that we've been talking about so far,

0:23:11.649,0:23:14.379
and the pronoun used to describe

0:23:14.379,0:23:17.499
that person were not traditional,

0:23:17.499,0:23:19.379
would the person have a case

0:23:19.379,0:23:20.959
before the Human Rights Commission?

0:23:20.959,0:23:22.209
KYLE: So, we haven't seen

0:23:22.209,0:23:23.949
cases on that at this point. But I would

0:23:23.949,0:23:25.899
say absolutely as a rule of –

0:23:25.899,0:23:27.489
as a general rule that you should be thinking

0:23:27.489,0:23:29.489
about in terms of employment settings,

0:23:29.489,0:23:32.289
absolutely, respecting trans persons'

0:23:32.289,0:23:35.750
pronoun choice is really fundamental.

0:23:35.750,0:23:38.380
And I can also say that in lots of circumstances,

0:23:38.380,0:23:40.720
a pronoun may not even be required.

0:23:40.720,0:23:44.020
There are lots of creative ways to avoid using

0:23:44.020,0:23:47.650
gender pronouns at all. And so, I think that –

0:23:47.650,0:23:49.030
But when you actually look at

0:23:49.030,0:23:50.380
the cases that are coming before tribunals,

0:23:50.380,0:23:52.960
we're not seeing that to be, really,

0:23:52.960,0:23:55.520
the primary issue. It's much more

0:23:55.520,0:23:57.490
basic human rights questions,

0:23:57.490,0:24:00.010
which is what the federal legislation here,

0:24:00.010,0:24:01.980
Bill C16, tries to accomplish.

0:24:01.980,0:24:04.360
STEVE: All right. I think we've set the table now.

0:24:04.360,0:24:06.549
You want to get in on this now, I can tell.

0:24:06.549,0:24:08.049
You've heard what the professor has to say.

0:24:08.049,0:24:10.209
What's your response?

0:24:10.209,0:24:11.460
JORDAN: Well, I don't understand

0:24:11.460,0:24:12.530
what the claim that

0:24:12.530,0:24:14.410
there's no such thing as biological sex means.

0:24:14.410,0:24:17.470
And I certainly think it's – let's call it

0:24:17.470,0:24:19.990
an error – to suggest that there's some

0:24:19.990,0:24:23.000
sort of scientific consensus about that.

0:24:23.000,0:24:25.400
I mean, there's biological differences

0:24:25.400,0:24:27.490
between males and females

0:24:27.490,0:24:29.500
in animals and human beings

0:24:29.500,0:24:31.090
at every level of analysis from the –

0:24:31.090,0:24:32.280
STEVE: Okay. I'm jumping in here.[br]JORDAN: Yeah.

0:24:32.280,0:24:33.759
STEVE: Because what about the notion

0:24:33.759,0:24:34.449
he put forward at the end there

0:24:34.449,0:24:35.799
that if you do not refer to people

0:24:35.799,0:24:38.200
with the pronoun that they prefer to be

0:24:38.200,0:24:40.570
referred to, that is a form, according to

0:24:40.570,0:24:41.590
the Human Rights Commission, of discrimination?

0:24:41.590,0:24:43.419
JORDAN: It's not just a form of discrimination,

0:24:43.419,0:24:45.690
it's a form of hate speech.

0:24:45.690,0:24:47.500
That's why I made the video.

0:24:47.500,0:24:51.170
I said that we were in danger of placing

0:24:51.170,0:24:53.080
the refusal to use certain kinds of language

0:24:53.080,0:24:56.210
into the same category as Holocaust denial,

0:24:56.210,0:24:58.070
and suggested that maybe

0:24:58.070,0:24:59.300
that wasn't such a good idea –

0:24:59.300,0:25:01.200
especially since there's plenty of debate

0:25:01.200,0:25:03.380
to be had about gender issues in our society,

0:25:03.380,0:25:04.780
which I also think are also

0:25:04.780,0:25:08.170
in danger of becoming illegal, and quite rapidly.

0:25:08.170,0:25:10.179
So, it isn't clear to me how long

0:25:10.179,0:25:11.350
we'll be able to have the talk

0:25:11.350,0:25:13.960
that we're having right now.[br]STEVE: Here are some –

0:25:13.960,0:25:16.009
KYLE: Can I jump in there –

0:25:16.009,0:25:17.410
Can I jump in there on – [br]STEVE: Please.

0:25:17.410,0:25:19.140
KYLE: I think it's a common misconception

0:25:19.140,0:25:21.460
about Bill C16 that it's somehow going

0:25:21.460,0:25:25.240
to make pronoun use into hate speech.

0:25:25.240,0:25:26.559
If you actually look at the provisions,

0:25:26.559,0:25:28.720
we're talking about very minor amendments

0:25:28.720,0:25:29.800
to the criminal code.

0:25:29.800,0:25:31.640
For example, Section –[br]JORDAN: They're not minor.

0:25:31.640,0:25:34.150
They put it into the hate-speech category.[br]They're not minor at all.

0:25:34.150,0:25:37.130
That's a misstatement.[br]THERYN: I actually agree with you on that point.

0:25:37.130,0:25:39.990
JORDAN: So don't tell me they're minor.[br]THERYN: I think there's a lot of opportunity here –

0:25:39.990,0:25:42.550
JORDAN: That's not – that's not right.[br]THERYN: There's a lot of opportunity opening.

0:25:42.550,0:25:44.799
KYLE: So Section –[br]STEVE: Kyle, go ahead.

0:25:44.799,0:25:46.419
KYLE: So, Section 318 – Pardon me.

0:25:46.419,0:25:48.909
So, Section 318 sets out [br]a series of identifiable groups,

0:25:48.909,0:25:51.350
and we're talking about the clearest of cases –

0:25:51.350,0:25:54.399
the cases of advocating genocide.

0:25:54.399,0:25:55.840
And we have a series of groups

0:25:55.840,0:25:57.639
that are already identified in the code.

0:25:57.639,0:25:59.499
And all this does is add gender identity and

0:25:59.499,0:26:01.809
gender expression to the categories

0:26:01.809,0:26:03.940
that are already identified. And so, I think we

0:26:03.940,0:26:06.220
really have to add some reasonableness

0:26:06.220,0:26:08.230
to this discussion, actually clearly

0:26:08.230,0:26:10.570
articulate what the provision does.

0:26:10.570,0:26:12.070
STEVE: Well, let me be a little clearer about what

0:26:12.070,0:26:15.669
some of the problems – what you might be

0:26:15.669,0:26:17.230
asking for if you want to do this.

0:26:17.230,0:26:19.929
For example, and Sheldon, bottom of Page 3 here,

0:26:19.929,0:26:21.789
let's put this graphic up.

0:26:21.789,0:26:24.129
"[P]ronoun misuse may become actionable

0:26:24.129,0:26:25.720
through the Human Rights Tribunals and the courts.

0:26:25.720,0:26:27.639
And the remedies? Monetary damages,

0:26:27.639,0:26:29.559
non-financial remedies, (for example,

0:26:29.559,0:26:31.269
ceasing the discriminatory practice or

0:26:31.269,0:26:33.519
reinstatement to the job), and public interest

0:26:33.519,0:26:35.590
remedies (for example, changing

0:26:35.590,0:26:37.059
hiring practices or developing

0:26:37.059,0:26:38.769
non-discriminatory policies and procedures).

0:26:38.769,0:26:41.340
Jail time is not one of them."

0:26:41.340,0:26:43.179
Jordan, you're not going to go to jail if

0:26:43.179,0:26:44.649
you keep this up. Do you find that reassuring?

0:26:44.649,0:26:48.489
JORDAN: What if I don't pay the fine?

0:26:48.489,0:26:50.619
STEVE: Then what?[br]JORDAN: Then what? And let's talk about

0:26:50.619,0:26:52.960
the legalities for a minute. As you know,

0:26:52.960,0:26:54.460
the University of Toronto sent me

0:26:54.460,0:26:57.279
two warning letters – right? – and the second one

0:26:57.279,0:26:58.869
basically asked me to stop talking about this.

0:26:58.869,0:27:01.629
STEVE: Who sent the letters?[br]JORDAN: The first –

0:27:01.629,0:27:03.460
It's the administration, fundamentally,

0:27:03.460,0:27:04.989
the higher up people in the administration.

0:27:04.989,0:27:07.299
The last one was the Dean of the Faculty

0:27:07.299,0:27:10.029
of Arts and Science.

0:27:10.029,0:27:11.710
But it's coming from

0:27:11.710,0:27:12.790
the top end of the university.

0:27:12.790,0:27:13.870
STEVE: And the letter said essentially

0:27:13.870,0:27:14.950
you you must call people by

0:27:14.950,0:27:16.629
the pronouns they want?

0:27:16.629,0:27:18.970
JORDAN: The letters basically said that –

0:27:18.970,0:27:21.190
and this is paraphrasing, obviously –

0:27:21.190,0:27:22.929
that I'm required to abide by the university

0:27:22.929,0:27:25.099
policies and the Ontario Human Rights Code.

0:27:25.099,0:27:27.190
And there's a strong implication in the letter,

0:27:27.190,0:27:28.749
by having this discussion,

0:27:28.749,0:27:30.489
that I wasn't doing so.

0:27:30.489,0:27:31.879
And so, they're asking me to stop.

0:27:31.879,0:27:32.929
And I can tell you also

0:27:32.929,0:27:34.039
why they're asking me to stop

0:27:34.039,0:27:37.100
apart from that. The codes, as written,

0:27:37.100,0:27:38.889
make the university just as liable

0:27:38.889,0:27:42.369
for my speech as I am. So, not only is

0:27:42.369,0:27:44.739
there a reasonable possibility that what

0:27:44.739,0:27:46.539
I'm doing is uttering hate speech now

0:27:46.539,0:27:48.659
under our law, but the university is

0:27:48.659,0:27:50.919
legally responsible for that.

0:27:50.919,0:27:52.629
And so, I think they consulted with their lawyers

0:27:52.629,0:27:54.609
and decided that maybe the claim that

0:27:54.609,0:27:56.710
I was making in my video was correct – that –

0:27:56.710,0:27:59.499
So – And so, I don't regard that as trivial.

0:27:59.499,0:28:00.400
And I think that

0:28:00.400,0:28:02.920
the lawyer who's discussing this is

0:28:02.920,0:28:05.390
downplaying the significance of it tremendously.

0:28:05.390,0:28:06.950
NICHOLAS: Could I speak to the campus

0:28:06.950,0:28:07.900
climate about this?

0:28:07.900,0:28:09.350
STEVE: Go ahead.[br]NICHOLAS: Because I don't agree with

0:28:09.350,0:28:11.400
why Dr. Peterson has been asked

0:28:11.400,0:28:14.050
to stop abusing students on campus.

0:28:14.050,0:28:16.270
JORDAN: To stop doing what?[br]NICHOLAS: Abusing students –

0:28:16.270,0:28:17.770
JORDAN: I see.[br]NICHOLAS: – and other members of

0:28:17.770,0:28:19.720
our learning community who do deserve

0:28:19.720,0:28:21.370
respect and do deserve to be able to work

0:28:21.370,0:28:23.620
and learn and contribute to society

0:28:23.620,0:28:27.970
in a place where, if they are physically assaulted,

0:28:27.970,0:28:31.780
if they are –[br]JORDAN: The assaults so far

0:28:31.780,0:28:33.610
came from the social-justice warriors

0:28:33.610,0:28:35.200
who were at this free-speech rally and

0:28:35.200,0:28:37.480
almost 2 million people have watched those, so far.

0:28:37.480,0:28:39.090
NICHOLAS: This is not accurate. [br]This is not accurate.

0:28:39.090,0:28:40.640
JORDAN: Well, you can look [br]at the videos yourself

0:28:40.640,0:28:41.920
NICHOLAS: You are being actioned because people

0:28:41.920,0:28:44.470
have been making complaints about your behavior.

0:28:44.470,0:28:46.170
JORDAN: Yes, I understand that.

0:28:46.170,0:28:47.340
NICHOLAS: Yes. and so we're seeing

0:28:47.340,0:28:48.693
a greater opportunity for social justice

0:28:48.693,0:28:51.440
happening that many people won't understand.

0:28:51.440,0:28:53.230
STEVE: Nick, can I be clear on something?

0:28:53.230,0:28:54.940
You've accused him of abusing

0:28:54.940,0:28:56.543
students by not using the pronouns they

0:28:56.543,0:28:57.976
want to be addressed by.

0:28:57.976,0:28:59.240
NICHOLAS: That's how I see it. Absolutely.

0:28:59.240,0:29:01.090
STEVE: That is tantamount to abuse in your view.

0:29:01.090,0:29:02.010
NICHOLAS: Absolutely!

0:29:02.010,0:29:04.620
Many, many global documents, many organizations –

0:29:04.620,0:29:06.840
JORDAN: How about violence?[br]Is it tantamount to violence?

0:29:06.840,0:29:07.830
NICHOLAS: Yes. Absolutely.

0:29:07.830,0:29:09.670
JORDAN: How about hate speech?[br]Is it tantamount to hate speech?

0:29:09.670,0:29:11.240
NICHOLAS: Yes! Of course, it's hate speech.[br]JORDAN: Fine. That's –

0:29:11.240,0:29:13.550
NICHOLAS: – to tell someone that[br]you won't refer to them as –

0:29:13.550,0:29:14.500
in a way that they –

0:29:14.500,0:29:16.490
that recognizes their humanity and dignity.

0:29:16.490,0:29:19.570
STEVE: Mary, let me get you in on this at this point.[br]MARY: Sure. [chuckles]

0:29:19.570,0:29:21.580
STEVE: You've got something you want to say [br]or can I put a question to you?

0:29:21.580,0:29:24.160
MARY: Uh, both go ahead. STEVE: Okay.[br]MARY: Put the question and I'll –

0:29:24.160,0:29:25.880
STEVE: You're a writer, Mary.[br]MARY: I am.[br]

0:29:25.880,0:29:28.550
STEVE: I know you care about free speech[br]because you're a writer.

0:29:28.550,0:29:31.270
MARY: Yes.[br]STEVE: Does Jordan Peterson

0:29:31.270,0:29:32.710
have a little place in your heart

0:29:32.710,0:29:34.510
because he's arguing free speech here?

0:29:34.510,0:29:36.160
MARY: I think the interesting thing about

0:29:36.160,0:29:38.679
Jordan and how I feel about his video –

0:29:38.679,0:29:40.870
And Jordan and I actually had an

0:29:40.870,0:29:42.460
opportunity to talk at length before

0:29:42.460,0:29:45.160
I wrote The Walrus article. And he sails

0:29:45.160,0:29:47.559
really close to things that I think

0:29:47.559,0:29:49.660
people can relate to. And I think that we

0:29:49.660,0:29:51.610
all want to have an open

0:29:51.610,0:29:53.320
discourse, we want conversations to

0:29:53.320,0:29:54.850
unfold, we want people to feel like they –

0:29:54.850,0:29:56.590
if they have something to say – if they

0:29:56.590,0:29:57.910
have a question, they can ask it –

0:29:57.910,0:30:00.910
that they're not going to be censored.

0:30:00.910,0:30:03.070
But he sails really close and then right past it.

0:30:03.070,0:30:04.809
And that's where he and I part ways

0:30:04.809,0:30:06.550
because what I don't really understand

0:30:06.550,0:30:11.020
is when you listen to the video,

0:30:11.020,0:30:14.349
he piles a lot of things into the basket of

0:30:14.349,0:30:16.909
using the pronouns that people want.

0:30:16.909,0:30:19.409
And it seems to me –

0:30:19.409,0:30:21.979
And you can correct me if I'm wrong.

0:30:21.979,0:30:23.239
But one of his anxieties –

0:30:23.239,0:30:24.199
And he talks about being

0:30:24.199,0:30:27.289
fearful and anxious in his video –

0:30:27.289,0:30:31.919
that somehow there's a cabal of trans activists

0:30:31.919,0:30:34.299
who have so much power that

0:30:34.299,0:30:37.459
they are going to basically –

0:30:37.459,0:30:39.779
Using the pronouns that people want

0:30:39.779,0:30:41.769
and capitulating to these demands

0:30:41.769,0:30:44.269
sort of pulls out the

0:30:44.269,0:30:45.799
critical Jenga piece of

0:30:45.799,0:30:47.869
the Western canon, right? [chuckles] I mean, basically,

0:30:47.869,0:30:50.149
Jordan is arguing that this is going to

0:30:50.149,0:30:52.189
create chaos and anarchy and

0:30:52.189,0:30:56.529
that it's essentially a Marxist plot that

0:30:56.529,0:31:01.399
is there to sow violence and there to

0:31:01.399,0:31:04.549
sow confusion and topple any kind of hierarchy.

0:31:04.549,0:31:06.979
STEVE: Can I just jump in there for a second?

0:31:06.979,0:31:08.629
Is that an accurate characterization of your view on this?

0:31:08.629,0:31:10.669
MARY: I listened really closely to that tape.

0:31:10.669,0:31:12.889
I think it is. STEVE: Is it – In your view, has she

0:31:12.889,0:31:16.319
accurately characterized where you're coming from?

0:31:16.319,0:31:18.429
JORDAN: It's not a transexual cabal

0:31:18.429,0:31:20.719
by any stretch of the imagination.

0:31:20.719,0:31:23.579
Is it a cabal of radical left-wingers?

0:31:23.579,0:31:25.579
Yes. It's a cabal of radical left-wingers,

0:31:25.579,0:31:27.919
and they've been active behind and in

0:31:27.919,0:31:29.989
front of the scenes increasingly over

0:31:29.989,0:31:32.449
the last 30 years. And my estimation is

0:31:32.449,0:31:34.759
that departments like Women Studies have

0:31:34.759,0:31:36.469
trained between 300,000

0:31:36.469,0:31:39.599
and 3 million radical left-wing activists.

0:31:39.599,0:31:41.089
And they're making –[br]MARY: And they're all

0:31:41.089,0:31:44.029
underpaid, so don't worry. [LAUGHS][br]JORDAN: Well, they could

0:31:44.029,0:31:46.339
pick higher-paying occupations if they

0:31:46.339,0:31:48.379
wanted higher-paying occupations. But –

0:31:48.379,0:31:51.109
NICHOLAS: Because sexism[br]does not exist. [chuckles]

0:31:51.109,0:31:51.999
Are you kidding me?

0:31:51.999,0:31:54.389
STEVE: Let's not get off topic here, folks.[br]Go ahead, Mary.

0:31:54.389,0:31:56.579
NICHOLAS: I think we're directly on point.[br]STEVE: Mary, come on back.

0:31:56.579,0:32:01.109
[inaudible crosstalk][br]MARY: So, I think Jordan has conceded that –

0:32:01.109,0:32:06.719
I think I've grasped his concern[br]At the very least, I've grasped the concern

0:32:06.719,0:32:09.669
that there is a kind of chipping away

0:32:09.669,0:32:12.529
at order as we've come to know it.

0:32:12.529,0:32:13.639
The other thing that Jordan and I have in

0:32:13.639,0:32:16.929
common is a real interest in language,

0:32:16.929,0:32:20.149
and the idea of what can happen when

0:32:20.149,0:32:24.499
language changes, when it evolves.

0:32:24.499,0:32:26.029
And I was thinking before I came here –

0:32:26.029,0:32:28.440
I was thinking about – I grew up in the Bronx

0:32:28.440,0:32:32.840
and I was born in '61. So, I remember very well

0:32:32.840,0:32:36.420
when we went from "Mrs." to "Ms."

0:32:36.420,0:32:38.720
And my father was appalled. And he kept

0:32:38.720,0:32:41.929
saying "Ms" and he thought was funny

0:32:41.929,0:32:43.850
because if you couldn't actually identify somebody as

0:32:43.850,0:32:47.059
either – particularly a female – as either

0:32:47.059,0:32:51.679
married or single, then – chaos, right?[br]STEVE: The notion of

0:32:51.679,0:32:53.299
characterizing a woman independent of

0:32:53.299,0:32:55.610
her marital status was controversial at the time.[br]MARY: That's right. And apparently very,

0:32:55.610,0:32:58.250
very confusing. And so, I'm reminded of

0:32:58.250,0:33:01.160
that when there's the –

0:33:01.160,0:33:04.070
when the suggestion is made that somehow if we

0:33:04.070,0:33:06.700
have words that don't fit into

0:33:06.700,0:33:08.600
something that we're very familiar with

0:33:08.600,0:33:11.419
and that we've used to date, that chaos

0:33:11.419,0:33:14.270
will ensue, that everyone will be confused. I don't believe that.[br]JORDAN: Well, there's two differences.

0:33:14.270,0:33:15.650
MARY: There's no evidence of that historically.

0:33:15.650,0:33:17.720
STEVE: I hear you. But there was no law

0:33:17.720,0:33:20.240
obliging people to use the word "Ms."

0:33:20.240,0:33:22.309
MARY: But there were laws to oblige

0:33:22.309,0:33:26.030
people to change the way that we

0:33:26.030,0:33:30.380
referred to Black people, for example.

0:33:30.380,0:33:32.020
There was a time when

0:33:32.020,0:33:34.070
there were any number of words that we

0:33:34.070,0:33:36.380
now can only say as letters. Can I say

0:33:36.380,0:33:38.870
them on TVO? People were called "darkies,"

0:33:38.870,0:33:43.460
"niggers," "coons" in polite company. And that evolved.

0:33:43.460,0:33:45.770
Those things changed. When I was

0:33:45.770,0:33:47.390
a teenager, people were still using those words.

0:33:47.390,0:33:49.970
STEVE: So, this is a natural evolution in in your view.

0:33:49.970,0:33:51.559
MARY: This is a natural evolution.

0:33:51.559,0:33:53.870
And nobody's – Chaos will not ensue. And –[br]JORDAN: If it's a natural

0:33:53.870,0:33:55.730
evolution, then we don't need hate-speech

0:33:55.730,0:33:57.919
law to enforce it.[br]MARY: But we obviously –

0:33:57.919,0:34:00.380
we do because we can drive social change.

0:34:00.380,0:34:01.940
And it doesn't all have to lead to chaos

0:34:01.940,0:34:04.700
is my point. And I think that

0:34:04.700,0:34:06.590
we have seen the flip side of –

0:34:06.590,0:34:09.590
Jordan's argument – I think – has in fact – we

0:34:09.590,0:34:11.719
do have a historical record of that.

0:34:11.719,0:34:13.310
So, when it was left to others to name

0:34:13.310,0:34:16.250
people, we lost indigenous names.

0:34:16.250,0:34:18.199
I come from – My mother's from Ireland.

0:34:18.199,0:34:19.699
She was from a generation that finally got to

0:34:19.699,0:34:21.409
learn her own language again.

0:34:21.409,0:34:22.730
She couldn't even speak Gaelic to her

0:34:22.730,0:34:23.989
parents because they hadn't been allowed

0:34:23.989,0:34:26.000
to speak it. So we know. We've seen the

0:34:26.000,0:34:28.730
effect when people can't use their own

0:34:28.730,0:34:30.199
language, when they can't use their own names.

0:34:30.199,0:34:31.850
STEVE: Okay. Let me get Jordan to respond to that.

0:34:31.850,0:34:33.230
A natural evolution of things, Jordan.

0:34:33.230,0:34:38.119
That's how it's being described.[br]JORDAN: Look. Words are tools.

0:34:38.119,0:34:39.350
Maybe that was one of the great philosophical

0:34:39.350,0:34:41.780
discoveries of the 20th century.

0:34:41.780,0:34:43.909
And that means – And people are always

0:34:43.909,0:34:46.219
looking for new tools to operate in the world.

0:34:46.219,0:34:49.429
And if you invent a good tool,

0:34:49.429,0:34:50.949
like a new word, then people will pick it up

0:34:50.949,0:34:53.480
just as fast as they possibly can.

0:34:53.480,0:34:55.730
You really see that in English. But the words

0:34:55.730,0:34:57.800
that are being required now are not good

0:34:57.800,0:34:59.480
tools and that's why people aren't using them.

0:34:59.480,0:35:01.940
And so, instead, what we have is the

0:35:01.940,0:35:03.740
use of force, despite the fact that

0:35:03.740,0:35:05.750
that's being denied – although we've

0:35:05.750,0:35:07.550
already established that, at least in the

0:35:07.550,0:35:08.869
opinion of one of the people on this

0:35:08.869,0:35:10.700
panel, I'm already guilty of a hate crime,

0:35:10.700,0:35:12.140
which is what I said I was guilty of

0:35:12.140,0:35:14.720
when I made that video.

0:35:14.720,0:35:15.830
The issue with the law is quite

0:35:15.830,0:35:17.930
straightforward. The government is

0:35:17.930,0:35:19.910
responding – is requiring us to use

0:35:19.910,0:35:21.859
certain language. That's not the same as

0:35:21.859,0:35:24.260
not using certain language. And it's a

0:35:24.260,0:35:25.820
line – And this is the fundamental issue.

0:35:25.820,0:35:27.560
This is maybe the fundamental issue.

0:35:27.560,0:35:30.260
That's a line we should not cross.

0:35:30.260,0:35:31.520
We should not allow the government to

0:35:31.520,0:35:34.160
decide which words we're allowed to use.

0:35:34.160,0:35:36.740
It's a mistake – and it's a mistake that

0:35:36.740,0:35:38.150
strikes right at the heart of free speech.

0:35:38.150,0:35:39.920
And the thing about free speech

0:35:39.920,0:35:41.840
is that it's not the right to

0:35:41.840,0:35:44.930
criticize your leaders, which is what

0:35:44.930,0:35:46.730
people usually characterize it as.

0:35:46.730,0:35:49.250
Freedom of speech is freedom to engage

0:35:49.250,0:35:51.230
in the processes that we use to

0:35:51.230,0:35:54.020
formulate the problems in our society,

0:35:54.020,0:35:56.000
to generate solutions to them, and reach a

0:35:56.000,0:35:58.040
consensus. It's actually a mechanism –

0:35:58.040,0:36:00.109
it's not just another value. And you should

0:36:00.109,0:36:01.849
put constraints on free speech with the

0:36:01.849,0:36:03.920
most extreme caution because you

0:36:03.920,0:36:06.140
interfere with people's ability to think

0:36:06.140,0:36:07.820
and communicate.[br]STEVE: Let me get Theryn to

0:36:07.820,0:36:09.109
weigh in. Theryn, you've been hearing the

0:36:09.109,0:36:10.490
debate here in the studio. Why don't you

0:36:10.490,0:36:13.609
weigh in and pick it up?[br]THERYN: Well, I guess I'm

0:36:13.609,0:36:15.530
in the same boat as Dr. Peterson when

0:36:15.530,0:36:17.510
it comes to being guilty of a hate crime –

0:36:17.510,0:36:21.619
or a – sorry – a hate-speech infringement –

0:36:21.619,0:36:24.349
because, I mean, I draw the line somewhere.

0:36:24.349,0:36:27.710
For example, I refuse to use pronouns

0:36:27.710,0:36:30.859
like "zes" and "zir." I don't have a problem

0:36:30.859,0:36:32.750
using "they/them/their" pronouns –

0:36:32.750,0:36:34.520
and that also happens just to be because of

0:36:34.520,0:36:36.109
the circles in which I move. I happen to

0:36:36.109,0:36:37.910
know people who use gender-neutral

0:36:37.910,0:36:40.339
pronouns so I've gotten used to it.

0:36:40.339,0:36:42.859
But the vast majority of people are not

0:36:42.859,0:36:45.410
going to come into contact with the

0:36:45.410,0:36:47.060
incredibly small fraction of the

0:36:47.060,0:36:49.810
population of gender non-binary people.

0:36:49.810,0:36:53.060
And that's why this is never

0:36:53.060,0:36:54.170
really going to pick up,

0:36:54.170,0:36:56.000
in my opinion. When it comes to

0:36:56.000,0:36:59.570
"Mrs." and "Ms.," at least half of

0:36:59.570,0:37:03.350
the population is female, so there was

0:37:03.350,0:37:06.470
some interaction with the term "Mrs."

0:37:06.470,0:37:10.670
versus "Ms.," and there were some

0:37:10.670,0:37:12.080
interactions so people could pick it up.

0:37:12.080,0:37:14.780
There just aren't enough gender

0:37:14.780,0:37:17.180
non-binary – I use that in quotation marks,

0:37:17.180,0:37:19.370
because I hate that term because it's a

0:37:19.370,0:37:21.920
political term not a gender

0:37:21.920,0:37:24.080
identity or a term of

0:37:24.080,0:37:25.520
identification. It's just a political term.

0:37:25.520,0:37:28.700
But regardless, I don't think it's

0:37:28.700,0:37:30.500
going to pick up. There's just not enough

0:37:30.500,0:37:33.530
of these people to interact with.

0:37:33.530,0:37:36.440
STEVE: The Twittersphere has been[br]buzzing with this conversation.

0:37:36.440,0:37:39.890
And let's just pull one up here.

0:37:39.890,0:37:41.780
Let's pull up one tweet. This was

0:37:41.780,0:37:42.950
tweeted to a number of people including,

0:37:42.950,0:37:44.960
as you can see in the middle, Jordan B. Peterson,

0:37:44.960,0:37:46.640
who's on our program tonight.

0:37:46.640,0:37:49.880
"I so look forward to Bill C16 putting

0:37:49.880,0:37:52.210
your kind of silly trolling to an end," it says.

0:37:52.210,0:37:55.280
There are people – Let's go to our

0:37:55.280,0:37:57.740
Professor Kyle in Ottawa. "There are

0:37:57.740,0:37:59.840
people out there who hope that C16 lives

0:37:59.840,0:38:02.720
up to Jordan's worst fears. Do you agree

0:38:02.720,0:38:05.690
that C16 ought to be able to prevent

0:38:05.690,0:38:08.540
people from expressing negative opinions

0:38:08.540,0:38:11.990
about transgender people?" KYLE: So, first I want

0:38:11.990,0:38:14.630
to clarify that Bill C16 only applies to

0:38:14.630,0:38:17.480
federally-regulated entities.

0:38:17.480,0:38:19.010
So, for example, the University of Toronto is

0:38:19.010,0:38:20.720
under provincial jurisdiction, so it is

0:38:20.720,0:38:23.060
therefore subject to the Ontario Human Rights Code.

0:38:23.060,0:38:24.140
So, I think that's an

0:38:24.140,0:38:26.540
important point to note. I also want to

0:38:26.540,0:38:28.490
note there's been a lot of talk about

0:38:28.490,0:38:31.100
hate crimes. That seems to be

0:38:31.100,0:38:33.380
kind of an American import into our discussion.

0:38:33.380,0:38:35.690
The only two changes that

0:38:35.690,0:38:38.990
this Bill C16 make are to make minor

0:38:38.990,0:38:43.100
amendments to Section 318 and 718[br]of the Criminal Code.

0:38:43.100,0:38:44.930
The first is advocating genocide,

0:38:44.930,0:38:46.940
as I've talked about –[br]a very, very extreme, high standard.

0:38:46.940,0:38:48.980
And then second off,

0:38:48.980,0:38:51.590
at sentencing, after an offense has been

0:38:51.590,0:38:53.600
committed and the person has been found guilty,

0:38:53.600,0:38:57.080
what 718 does is it tells judges that

0:38:57.080,0:39:00.200
they ought to treat hate motivation as

0:39:00.200,0:39:02.540
an aggravating factor at sentencing –

0:39:02.540,0:39:04.550
to treat that as a more severe form.

0:39:04.550,0:39:07.760
And currently, we have a series of identities

0:39:07.760,0:39:10.310
that are set out in 718 – things like sexual

0:39:10.310,0:39:13.670
orientation, race. We don't have currently

0:39:13.670,0:39:14.930
gender identity and gender expression there.

0:39:14.930,0:39:17.450
And so, that's what this does.

0:39:17.450,0:39:18.890
So, I think – I just want to make it very

0:39:18.890,0:39:20.690
clear that we ought not to be importing

0:39:20.690,0:39:23.860
American concepts into the discussion here.

0:39:23.860,0:39:27.380
And so, to the extent that Bill C16

0:39:27.380,0:39:31.010
makes changes only to – in the Canadian

0:39:31.010,0:39:33.710
Human Rights Act context – to federally

0:39:33.710,0:39:35.690
regulated entities, which is not the

0:39:35.690,0:39:37.310
University of Toronto. STEVE: Nicholas, let me

0:39:37.310,0:39:39.620
follow up with you. Why in your view do

0:39:39.620,0:39:41.600
you think the trans community needs this

0:39:41.600,0:39:43.310
kind of legislative protection?

0:39:43.310,0:39:44.690
NICHOLAS: Well, thank you. That's basically the point

0:39:44.690,0:39:46.520
that hasn't been raised yet which is

0:39:46.520,0:39:48.940
that people are actually suffering huge

0:39:48.940,0:39:52.550
lack of access to resources that will

0:39:52.550,0:39:54.500
allow people to survive. So, people are

0:39:54.500,0:39:56.360
being physically assaulted, people do not

0:39:56.360,0:39:58.190
have counselors that they can go to who

0:39:58.190,0:40:01.730
are not going to – as Dr. Peterson has

0:40:01.730,0:40:04.070
done on YouTube – recommend that they

0:40:04.070,0:40:06.190
actually become more anxious and more

0:40:06.190,0:40:10.220
upset about situations. People are being assaulted.

0:40:10.220,0:40:12.140
I brought all sorts of really

0:40:12.140,0:40:16.250
depressing stats that – People who are

0:40:16.250,0:40:18.950
leaning towards thinking that this is

0:40:18.950,0:40:20.990
not that big of a deal, those people need

0:40:20.990,0:40:24.710
to look at those stats. But many people – [br]STEVE: Give us one. Give us one stat.

0:40:24.710,0:40:28.370
NICHOLAS: Yeah. So, 58% of students

0:40:28.370,0:40:30.200
could not get academic transcripts with

0:40:30.200,0:40:31.870
their correct name or pronoun.

0:40:31.870,0:40:34.400
That causes a huge chain of events for

0:40:34.400,0:40:36.290
students or anybody who's had any kind

0:40:36.290,0:40:38.660
of academic training. As everyone

0:40:38.660,0:40:40.220
recognizes, we need to be able to have

0:40:40.220,0:40:42.130
references, we need to be able to have resumes,

0:40:42.130,0:40:45.890
we need to be able to get jobs.

0:40:45.890,0:40:48.710
STEVE: So, I want to be sure that I'm

0:40:48.710,0:40:50.270
clearly understanding your point here,

0:40:50.270,0:40:52.610
which is – and therefore they feel disrespected,

0:40:52.610,0:40:54.260
and therefore this affects their life in

0:40:54.260,0:40:56.330
a very real way? Is that right?

0:40:56.330,0:40:58.100
NICHOLAS: The feeling of disrespect is not as

0:40:58.100,0:41:00.950
important as the ways that people in

0:41:00.950,0:41:02.960
authority are able to circumvent the

0:41:02.960,0:41:05.300
possibilities for living. So, it has more

0:41:05.300,0:41:06.740
to do with not being able to find housing,

0:41:06.740,0:41:08.990
and therefore being homeless.

0:41:08.990,0:41:10.970
It has more to do with not being able to get

0:41:10.970,0:41:13.190
jobs because people are discriminated against.

0:41:13.190,0:41:15.620
So we're not actually talking –

0:41:15.620,0:41:16.850
we shouldn't be talking about free speech.

0:41:16.850,0:41:18.230
What we should be talking about are the

0:41:18.230,0:41:19.880
social issues facing people who are

0:41:19.880,0:41:21.190
being discriminated against

0:41:21.190,0:41:23.440
and what that looks like on campus –

0:41:23.440,0:41:26.380
which is that some professors refuse to offer

0:41:26.380,0:41:28.960
basic dignity to students and colleagues.

0:41:28.960,0:41:32.650
And that leads to people missing classes,

0:41:32.650,0:41:34.869
it leads to people dropping out, it leads

0:41:34.869,0:41:38.170
to a lack of positive opportunity for

0:41:38.170,0:41:40.690
society to actually benefit from the

0:41:40.690,0:41:43.060
contributions of many, many people.

0:41:43.060,0:41:44.859
And I also don't teach that there's a huge

0:41:44.859,0:41:46.390
divide between trans people and

0:41:46.390,0:41:47.980
non trans people because I would say

0:41:47.980,0:41:49.839
the number is 100% of people

0:41:49.839,0:41:52.270
will benefit from more open discussion.

0:41:52.270,0:41:54.220
And one of the problems is that

0:41:54.220,0:41:55.690
it's being addressed in a black-and-white way.

0:41:55.690,0:41:57.400
So, it's too bad that we can't actually

0:41:57.400,0:41:58.990
have an open conversation because there's

0:41:58.990,0:42:00.910
a huge wall of violence between us.

0:42:00.910,0:42:02.680
STEVE: Here is somebody who did not

0:42:02.680,0:42:03.940
share your view on that because we

0:42:03.940,0:42:05.470
invited another guest to be on the

0:42:05.470,0:42:07.960
program today. And this person initially

0:42:07.960,0:42:09.670
said "yes," and then sent a Facebook

0:42:09.670,0:42:11.589
message to our producer [unknown]

0:42:11.589,0:42:13.780
[? Schamberg] saying, "You know what?

0:42:13.780,0:42:15.490
Changed my mind." "Giving Jordan Peterson this

0:42:15.490,0:42:17.619
platform serves to legitimize

0:42:17.619,0:42:19.960
his views which are based on bigotry and misinformation.

0:42:19.960,0:42:22.210
The humanity and rights

0:42:22.210,0:42:24.520
of transgender non-binary and intersex

0:42:24.520,0:42:26.200
people are not a matter of debate,

0:42:26.200,0:42:28.599
and holding a debate which places a false

0:42:28.599,0:42:30.160
equivalency between the views expressed

0:42:30.160,0:42:31.930
by Peterson and the human rights

0:42:31.930,0:42:33.940
concerns of the trans community would be

0:42:33.940,0:42:36.369
an act of transphobia. Therefore, none of

0:42:36.369,0:42:40.839
us wish to participate in this." Okay.

0:42:40.839,0:42:43.119
NICHOLAS:Thank you. Thank you for reading that. It was a very

0:42:43.119,0:42:44.920
important perspective. STEVE: That's why I read it. I

0:42:44.920,0:42:47.099
wonder whether, Jordan,

0:42:47.099,0:42:49.359
everybody's talking past each other here.

0:42:49.359,0:42:50.500
You are trying to make a point about free speech.

0:42:50.500,0:42:53.200
JORDAN: I don't think we're talking past each other.

0:42:53.200,0:42:54.849
STEVE: The other side – Well, but the others – You're

0:42:54.849,0:42:56.140
trying to make a point about free speech.

0:42:56.140,0:42:57.430
The other side is trying to make

0:42:57.430,0:42:59.800
a point about the rights – the human

0:42:59.800,0:43:01.480
rights of trans people. That's not the

0:43:01.480,0:43:03.430
point that you're trying to make.

0:43:03.430,0:43:05.079
Do we have two different groups here that are

0:43:05.079,0:43:06.550
trying to make two different points and

0:43:06.550,0:43:08.109
they find themselves in the same bowl of soup,

0:43:08.109,0:43:10.030
and that's why this has turned into

0:43:10.030,0:43:11.920
the conflagration it has?

0:43:11.920,0:43:13.960
JORDAN: Well, it's partly that, because the issues we're

0:43:13.960,0:43:15.550
discussing have to center on some

0:43:15.550,0:43:17.200
actual issues, and they happen to be

0:43:17.200,0:43:19.450
centering on the issue surrounding

0:43:19.450,0:43:22.660
transgender language. But I don't think

0:43:22.660,0:43:24.550
we're talking past each other at all in

0:43:24.550,0:43:27.220
a fundamental sense. I mean, I think that

0:43:27.220,0:43:28.960
the real problem here is that

0:43:28.960,0:43:31.599
there's a concerted attempt made being

0:43:31.599,0:43:34.300
made by many people to

0:43:34.300,0:43:36.730
subvert all values to the value of equality of outcome.

0:43:36.730,0:43:40.030
And we need more than one value,

0:43:40.030,0:43:41.140
first of all, if we're going to survive

0:43:41.140,0:43:43.570
as a society, because you can't solve

0:43:43.570,0:43:46.270
every problem with the same approach.

0:43:46.270,0:43:48.490
But there are more insidious things, in my

0:43:48.490,0:43:50.650
estimation, going on underneath.

0:43:50.650,0:43:53.650
I mean even the the missive that you just read

0:43:53.650,0:43:55.990
said that, well, even providing me with a

0:43:55.990,0:43:58.390
platform – let's call it – to express my

0:43:58.390,0:44:00.430
views is something that shouldn't be allowed.

0:44:00.430,0:44:02.290
It's like, "Yes, that's why I made the video."

0:44:02.290,0:44:04.150
It was because many people are

0:44:04.150,0:44:06.160
claiming that the expression of these

0:44:06.160,0:44:07.660
sorts of views should no longer be permitted.

0:44:07.660,0:44:11.140
And it's this view for now.

0:44:11.140,0:44:13.150
But this is a minor issue in some ways

0:44:13.150,0:44:15.280
compared to the larger issue that's at stake,

0:44:15.280,0:44:17.560
which is our right to have

0:44:17.560,0:44:19.120
discussions of this sort at all.

0:44:19.120,0:44:20.470
Like, I mean, one thing that happened right when

0:44:20.470,0:44:22.090
we started this was that there was an

0:44:22.090,0:44:23.650
initial claim, for example, that there's

0:44:23.650,0:44:26.170
no such thing as biological sex.

0:44:26.170,0:44:28.810
Well, I believe quite firmly that if we continue

0:44:28.810,0:44:30.730
on our present path at the universities

0:44:30.730,0:44:32.740
for five more years, that's a discussion we

0:44:32.740,0:44:34.150
will not actually be able to have on campuses.

0:44:34.150,0:44:37.030
Because – STEVE: Because you believe –[br]JORDAN: By fiat. I mean,

0:44:37.030,0:44:39.850
the legislation already implicitly presumes

0:44:39.850,0:44:43.600
that biological sex, gender identity,

0:44:43.600,0:44:45.100
and gender expression – which we haven't

0:44:45.100,0:44:47.320
even talked about yet – vary independently.

0:44:47.320,0:44:51.310
That is simply not true.[br]STEVE: Theryn, there –

0:44:51.310,0:44:52.870
the person who sent that Facebook message

0:44:52.870,0:44:54.160
thinks that we're partaking in

0:44:54.160,0:44:55.930
transphobia just by having this debate.

0:44:55.930,0:44:58.000
I hope that's not the case. But I wonder if

0:44:58.000,0:45:00.370
you could give us your explanation for

0:45:00.370,0:45:04.060
why some people adamantly refuse even

0:45:04.060,0:45:05.830
to have this discussion – that the notion

0:45:05.830,0:45:07.660
of having this discussion is somehow transphobic.

0:45:07.660,0:45:14.520
THERYN: I think it has to do with –

0:45:14.520,0:45:16.630
There's a lacking when it

0:45:16.630,0:45:19.120
comes to actually being able

0:45:19.120,0:45:22.840
to defend your points through argument.

0:45:22.840,0:45:24.730
So, if you open up the discussion for argument,

0:45:24.730,0:45:27.720
they know they will lose.

0:45:27.720,0:45:30.490
I think it's absolutely ludicrous and

0:45:30.490,0:45:32.590
insane to say that having this

0:45:32.590,0:45:36.040
discussion is, by default, transphobic.

0:45:36.040,0:45:38.500
I think it's even more – it's equally

0:45:38.500,0:45:40.630
ludicrous to call Dr. Peterson – what he

0:45:40.630,0:45:44.290
said – transphobic. I think it takes –

0:45:44.290,0:45:47.440
Using that term so willy-nilly,

0:45:47.440,0:45:49.540
it takes the emotional response to

0:45:49.540,0:45:51.760
a term like "transphobia" and [conflates] it

0:45:51.760,0:45:55.750
with something as, in my opinion,

0:45:55.750,0:45:57.550
as productive as having an open discussion.

0:45:57.550,0:46:00.040
And I think that's very insidious.

0:46:00.040,0:46:01.570
And I think that's very manipulative.

0:46:01.570,0:46:03.430
STEVE: Kyle? Are we being transphobic here by

0:46:03.430,0:46:06.670
having this debate? KYLE: Well, I do worry about

0:46:06.670,0:46:09.220
setting up a false equivalency

0:46:09.220,0:46:11.650
in this conversation and really even having –

0:46:11.650,0:46:13.780
making the premise that trans lives are

0:46:13.780,0:46:15.550
up for debate. They're not up for debate.

0:46:15.550,0:46:17.200
Human rights aren't up for debate.

0:46:17.200,0:46:18.310
And the reason that I agreed to be on

0:46:18.310,0:46:19.990
the program is that I've been very troubled

0:46:19.990,0:46:22.270
by the misinformation about what the law

0:46:22.270,0:46:24.610
is actually going to do. And so, I really

0:46:24.610,0:46:25.990
grappled with whether or not I wanted

0:46:25.990,0:46:28.000
to participate in this discussion.

0:46:28.000,0:46:29.560
But I thought it was very important to really

0:46:29.560,0:46:31.900
try to dial back the hateful rhetoric

0:46:31.900,0:46:33.900
and actually do a very careful

0:46:33.900,0:46:36.190
discussion about what the law is

0:46:36.190,0:46:37.780
actually designed to achieve and,

0:46:37.780,0:46:40.390
ultimately, to promote a more equitable

0:46:40.390,0:46:42.390
and just society. So, we've talked about

0:46:42.390,0:46:44.590
freedom of expression to use the

0:46:44.590,0:46:46.300
Canadian term, but we should also be

0:46:46.300,0:46:49.200
talking about other values like equality

0:46:49.200,0:46:52.330
and anti-racism, I think. STEVE: Just curious,

0:46:52.330,0:46:53.620
Mary, I'm gonna get to in one sec.

0:46:53.620,0:46:55.300
curious, though. You've now participated

0:46:55.300,0:46:58.480
in 90% of the program. We're just about done.

0:46:58.480,0:47:00.880
Do you – Was it a good idea for you to come on?

0:47:00.880,0:47:02.980
KYLE: I think that it's an opportunity

0:47:02.980,0:47:05.500
to try to work through some of

0:47:05.500,0:47:07.840
the legal issues, the social and human rights

0:47:07.840,0:47:11.500
and equality issues, and so, I'm happy

0:47:11.500,0:47:13.060
to be here. But I recognize that other

0:47:13.060,0:47:14.950
people's experiences – they might find,

0:47:14.950,0:47:16.420
ultimately, that participating in this

0:47:16.420,0:47:19.030
program was a mistake. And time will tell.

0:47:19.030,0:47:21.610
STEVE: Mary, you wanted to follow up.[br]MARY: Well, I certainly – sorry –

0:47:21.610,0:47:23.080
I certainly want to say that I found

0:47:23.080,0:47:25.390
Kyle – I found that what you brought to it

0:47:25.390,0:47:26.860
in terms of putting the bill

0:47:26.860,0:47:28.330
into perspective actually really helpful,

0:47:28.330,0:47:30.070
and probably helpful to a lot of people.

0:47:30.070,0:47:32.500
So, I'm glad that Kyle was here.

0:47:32.500,0:47:33.760
I think, for me, one of the things that I'm really –

0:47:33.760,0:47:36.520
I felt anxious about coming in –

0:47:36.520,0:47:39.250
and I'm still puzzling over – why this issue?

0:47:39.250,0:47:42.790
Why this issue? So – and I do think – at the risk

0:47:42.790,0:47:45.630
of bringing in the United States again,

0:47:45.630,0:47:47.950
there does seem to be a similarity

0:47:47.950,0:47:49.960
between some of the rhetoric we're

0:47:49.960,0:47:51.430
hearing down south right now through

0:47:51.430,0:47:53.440
the election and this. It's been –

0:47:53.440,0:47:56.650
It feels like it's greatly exaggerated –

0:47:56.650,0:48:00.010
sort of what can – what will fallout from this, what will –

0:48:00.010,0:48:03.310
And we're sort of – It feels like a bit of

0:48:03.310,0:48:05.950
a tempest in a teapot. I don't see

0:48:05.950,0:48:08.050
the connections that Jordan is making.

0:48:08.050,0:48:09.280
And as a person who identifies as transgender,

0:48:09.280,0:48:12.370
it's very, very confusing that this is

0:48:12.370,0:48:15.010
somehow up for discussion.[br]STEVE: You saw the

0:48:15.010,0:48:16.480
tape at the beginning of the program

0:48:16.480,0:48:18.610
of the – I mean he tried to give a speech at

0:48:18.610,0:48:22.210
a university campus and was really quite

0:48:22.210,0:48:24.490
mercilessly shouted down.[br]MARY: And that would

0:48:24.490,0:48:26.110
be one of the places where Jordan and I

0:48:26.110,0:48:28.360
would have some common ground in

0:48:28.360,0:48:30.870
that there has been a trend,

0:48:30.870,0:48:34.170
in some ways, for people to allow

0:48:34.170,0:48:36.970
no platforming, and, "This person's views

0:48:36.970,0:48:38.530
are objectionable and we don't want them

0:48:38.530,0:48:40.030
to come on the campus."[br]STEVE: What do you think of that?

0:48:40.030,0:48:42.520
MARY: I think it's probably

0:48:42.520,0:48:44.650
best not discussed in the context of

0:48:44.650,0:48:47.050
someone's personal identity, right? [chuckles]

0:48:47.050,0:48:48.430
So,that's part of my – that's part of what

0:48:48.430,0:48:50.860
I'm bothered by by this discussion. So –

0:48:50.860,0:48:52.390
STEVE: But if you can't have a discussion about

0:48:52.390,0:48:54.640
free speech on a university campus,

0:48:54.640,0:48:55.690
then I guess you can't have one,

0:48:55.690,0:48:56.770
because that's supposed to be[br]where they happen, isn't it?

0:48:56.770,0:48:59.110
MARY: I agree with you. I think that

0:48:59.110,0:49:00.760
that is a problem. What I'm trying to say

0:49:00.760,0:49:02.920
is that those issues came up around –

0:49:02.920,0:49:06.430
issues of someone who was

0:49:06.430,0:49:07.810
pro-Israel who wanted to come onto campus –

0:49:07.810,0:49:09.670
those things are political.

0:49:09.670,0:49:12.880
My identity, my personal identity, my gender

0:49:12.880,0:49:14.050
identity is very separate from my

0:49:14.050,0:49:15.790
political identity. And so, it's very

0:49:15.790,0:49:17.620
strange to have this to be where we're

0:49:17.620,0:49:19.660
going to plant the flag and say,

0:49:19.660,0:49:21.370
"Enough with this crazy political correctness!" [chuckles]

0:49:21.370,0:49:23.350
"You don't get to choose your pronouns!"

0:49:23.350,0:49:25.330
It seems trivial to me.[br]JORDAN: I thought it was

0:49:25.330,0:49:28.090
an axiom, say, of feminism, for example,

0:49:28.090,0:49:30.820
that the personal was political.

0:49:30.820,0:49:32.950
And isn't that the –? That's a famous phrase.

0:49:32.950,0:49:35.110
The personal is political. STEVE: Okay. But speaking – NICHOLAS: The personal is

0:49:35.110,0:49:37.330
political when someone is attacking you

0:49:37.330,0:49:39.400
on a basis that is personal and that you

0:49:39.400,0:49:41.590
can't change about yourself. That's a –

0:49:41.590,0:49:44.350
That is political. And that's when people

0:49:44.350,0:49:46.780
sometimes become politicized is when

0:49:46.780,0:49:48.460
they realize that no matter what they do

0:49:48.460,0:49:50.350
in the world, there will be people who

0:49:50.350,0:49:52.840
will continue to attack them on racist grounds,

0:49:52.840,0:49:55.150
on gender and sexual violence grounds.

0:49:55.150,0:49:57.100
And that's why people start to fight back,

0:49:57.100,0:49:58.570
and that's why people object.

0:49:58.570,0:50:00.790
But on –[br]JORDAN And your attempts to regulate

0:50:00.790,0:50:02.920
my language use and your repeated –[br]NICHOLAS: I don't care about

0:50:02.920,0:50:04.450
your language use. I care about the

0:50:04.450,0:50:07.510
safety of the people who are being harmed.

0:50:07.510,0:50:09.580
JORDAN: I know. People who make your kinds of

0:50:09.580,0:50:10.900
arguments are always concerned with

0:50:10.900,0:50:12.730
other people's safety.[br]NICHOLAS: I'm concerned with

0:50:12.730,0:50:13.410
my own safety.

0:50:13.410,0:50:15.690
My – Just so that people are aware,

0:50:15.690,0:50:18.990
my physical, emotional, life, and livelihood

0:50:18.990,0:50:21.240
is at risk from being here. And that's not true of everyone.

0:50:21.240,0:50:23.610
JORDAN: In comparison to mine, say.[br]NICHOLAS: I don't know about

0:50:23.610,0:50:25.980
yours, because I don't live your life.[br]JORDAN: Yes you do. You know perfectly well about mine.

0:50:25.980,0:50:27.420
You know about the letter.[br]NICHOLAS: I do know that you have tenure and that that's

0:50:27.420,0:50:29.310
one of the major ways that you're able

0:50:29.310,0:50:32.010
to do this. But I just want people to be

0:50:32.010,0:50:35.130
aware that trans-and gender-diverse

0:50:35.130,0:50:37.680
communities – and especially people of color –

0:50:37.680,0:50:40.230
are being targeted and threatened physically.

0:50:40.230,0:50:42.270
So, free speech is a great

0:50:42.270,0:50:44.550
idea and equality is a great idea,

0:50:44.550,0:50:45.630
but we actually can't have those conversations

0:50:45.630,0:50:47.850
when people are not even able to be present.

0:50:47.850,0:50:49.740
STEVE: Jordan, let me read this tweet to you,

0:50:49.740,0:50:50.670
and I'll get you to respond to

0:50:50.670,0:50:52.710
it because I think it's instructive of

0:50:52.710,0:50:53.940
the conversation that just took place

0:50:53.940,0:50:55.920
between the two of you.

0:50:55.920,0:50:56.700
"Can someone please explain

0:50:56.700,0:50:58.290
to Jordan B Peterson that there's a

0:50:58.290,0:50:59.760
difference between freedom of speech and

0:50:59.760,0:51:02.190
freedom from consequence?" Do you agree

0:51:02.190,0:51:04.080
there's a difference?[br]JORDAN: Well, certainly

0:51:04.080,0:51:05.370
there's a difference. STEVE: And are you

0:51:05.370,0:51:06.930
prepared to suffer the consequences that

0:51:06.930,0:51:08.970
society may deem you need to suffer

0:51:08.970,0:51:12.180
because of your views?

0:51:12.180,0:51:13.230
JORDAN: Yes, I'm prepared to do that. So –

0:51:13.230,0:51:15.150
STEVE: What does that entail? [br]NICHOLAS: Are you open open to learning?

0:51:15.150,0:51:17.130
STEVE: Well, hang on.[br]JORDAN: That's not the question.

0:51:17.130,0:51:18.390
STEVE: Hang on. That that wasn't the question.[br]NICHOLAS: That's true.

0:51:18.390,0:51:21.030
JORDAN: Well, so what am I willing to do?

0:51:21.030,0:51:23.340
Well, I think that the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal

0:51:23.340,0:51:26.130
is probably obligated,

0:51:26.130,0:51:28.740
by their own tangled web, to bring me in

0:51:28.740,0:51:30.840
front of it. If they fine me, I won't pay it.

0:51:30.840,0:51:32.640
If they put me in jail, I'll go on a hunger strike.

0:51:32.640,0:51:36.000
I'm not doing this.

0:51:36.000,0:51:38.940
And that's that. I'm not using the words that

0:51:38.940,0:51:40.260
other people require me to use –

0:51:40.260,0:51:43.170
especially if they're made up by radical

0:51:43.170,0:51:44.400
left-wing ideologues.

0:51:44.400,0:51:46.680
Now, if our society comes to some sort of

0:51:46.680,0:51:48.540
consensus over the next while about how

0:51:48.540,0:51:50.880
we'll solve the pronoun problem –

0:51:50.880,0:51:53.820
let's call it – and that becomes part of popular parlance,

0:51:53.820,0:51:55.380
and it seems to solve the

0:51:55.380,0:51:57.420
problem properly without sacrificing the

0:51:57.420,0:51:59.100
distinction between singular and plural,

0:51:59.100,0:52:01.590
and without requiring me to memorize

0:52:01.590,0:52:04.080
an impossible list of an indefinite number of pronouns,

0:52:04.080,0:52:05.610
then I would be willing to

0:52:05.610,0:52:08.280
reconsider my position. But I'm also

0:52:08.280,0:52:11.460
partly opposed to this because it's been

0:52:11.460,0:52:13.260
made mandatory and has the whole weight

0:52:13.260,0:52:14.850
of the law behind it. It's like this is a

0:52:14.850,0:52:17.100
very bad idea. I believe this is a very

0:52:17.100,0:52:19.290
bad idea. And I believe that the reason

0:52:19.290,0:52:21.330
this has caused so much noise –

0:52:21.330,0:52:22.740
tremendous amount of noise – tremendous amount of

0:52:22.740,0:52:24.540
attention on YouTube – is because there

0:52:24.540,0:52:26.700
are things that are at stake

0:52:26.700,0:52:28.950
in this discussion – despite its surface nature –

0:52:28.950,0:52:31.110
that strike at the very

0:52:31.110,0:52:33.480
heart of our civilization. That's what I believe.

0:52:33.480,0:52:36.690
STEVE: Do you have tenure? JORDAN: I do.

0:52:36.690,0:52:39.180
STEVE: So, they can't fire you for this.[br]JORDAN: Well, it's

0:52:39.180,0:52:40.680
not all that easy to figure out what

0:52:40.680,0:52:43.350
people can and can't do. If I'm –

0:52:43.350,0:52:48.510
Certainly, they could fire me if I was – let's say –

0:52:48.510,0:52:50.550
if the hate-speech allegations,

0:52:50.550,0:52:52.950
so to speak, stuck. I mean, the university – Look.

0:52:52.950,0:52:54.750
The university's been quite reasonable

0:52:54.750,0:52:56.250
about this, especially compared to many universities.

0:52:56.250,0:52:58.140
STEVE: Actually –[br]JORDAN: We're going to have a debate.

0:52:58.140,0:52:59.340
STEVE: I was just going to say –[br]We've got a minute left and

0:52:59.340,0:53:00.540
do want to give it to Jordan[br]JORDAN: Yeah. Okay.

0:53:00.540,0:53:02.720
STEVE: Because the university has not said entirely,

0:53:02.720,0:53:04.980
"Shut up. We don't want to hear this anymore."

0:53:04.980,0:53:06.450
JORDAN: No. But I went and

0:53:06.450,0:53:08.070
talked to the dean on Friday. And I sat

0:53:08.070,0:53:09.690
down with my family and I thought,

0:53:09.690,0:53:11.640
"Okay. What would be the best way for this

0:53:11.640,0:53:14.370
to go for everyone – for me and and for my

0:53:14.370,0:53:15.840
students and for the university and for society?"

0:53:15.840,0:53:17.280
I thought, "Okay. Well, really

0:53:17.280,0:53:19.500
obviously, there's an issue here –

0:53:19.500,0:53:21.000
several of them – because otherwise, all of this

0:53:21.000,0:53:22.950
noise wouldn't have emerged. So we should

0:53:22.950,0:53:24.300
actually have a debate about it."[br]STEVE: And that's happening.

0:53:24.300,0:53:25.980
JORDAN: Yes. So I went and

0:53:25.980,0:53:27.840
talked to the Dean, David Cameron, who is

0:53:27.840,0:53:30.750
a very reasonable person and I said,

0:53:30.750,0:53:32.610
"Look, well, I think the University of Toronto

0:53:32.610,0:53:33.990
should take a leadership position on this.

0:53:33.990,0:53:35.850
And there's issues to be discussed here.

0:53:35.850,0:53:38.220
STEVE: So who are you debating?

0:53:38.220,0:53:40.740
JORDAN: Hah! Well, that remains to be seen.

0:53:40.740,0:53:42.480
I haven't seen people flooding out of[br]the woodwork to debate me so far.

0:53:42.480,0:53:44.250
STEVE: You have a date, place, and time yet?

0:53:44.250,0:53:46.110
JORDAN: Um, we don't. It'll be on the campus.

0:53:46.110,0:53:47.820
It'll probably be on a

0:53:47.820,0:53:49.830
morning in the next two weeks.

0:53:49.830,0:53:52.170
STEVE: Okay. You let me know we'll tweet it out there.

0:53:52.170,0:53:54.510
JORDAN: I will let you know. Absolutely.[br]STEVE: Okay. That's our time

0:53:54.510,0:53:56.220
I'm afraid, everybody. I do want to thank

0:53:56.220,0:53:57.720
everybody for coming in tonight.

0:53:57.720,0:53:59.100
And I hope you found it was worth your while.

0:53:59.100,0:54:01.650
We certainly found it, I think, a very useful exercise.

0:54:01.650,0:54:04.530
NICHOLAS: Can I [inaudible] resources for people?[br]STEVE: Sorry?

0:54:04.530,0:54:06.450
NICHOLAS: People who just watched this program may be really

0:54:06.450,0:54:09.060
in need of something.[br]STEVE: Sure. You've got a website?

0:54:09.060,0:54:10.110
I would really encourage people to go to

0:54:10.110,0:54:12.270
transformingjustice.ca. It's a

0:54:12.270,0:54:14.730
current research initiative that will

0:54:14.730,0:54:16.740
appeal to anyone with any interest in

0:54:16.740,0:54:18.090
research and learning.[br]STEVE: Say it again.

0:54:18.090,0:54:20.310
BOTH: transformingjustice.ca.

0:54:20.310,0:54:21.540
STEVE: We are happy to put that out there.

0:54:21.540,0:54:23.610
NICHOLAS: Thank you.[br]STEVE: Theryn Meyer, the trans pundit and

0:54:23.610,0:54:25.350
Youtuber in Vancouver; Kyle Kirkup,

0:54:25.350,0:54:26.850
the professor of law at the University of Ottawa;

0:54:26.850,0:54:28.950
we thank both of you for being outside

0:54:28.950,0:54:30.540
our studio but part of our broadcast tonight.

0:54:30.540,0:54:32.310
Jordan Peterson of the U of T;

0:54:32.310,0:54:35.370
Nick Matte, from the U of T; Mary Rogan,

0:54:35.370,0:54:37.020
you can read more about this in her piece,

0:54:37.020,0:54:38.640
"Growing Up Trans," in the October issue

0:54:38.640,0:54:40.890
of Walrus magazine, on

0:54:40.890,0:54:43.170
better bookstore and corner-store stands

0:54:43.170,0:54:45.739
everywhere. Thanks so much, everybody.

0:54:45.739,0:54:50.549
GUESTS: Thank you.[br]NARRATOR: Help TVO create a better

0:54:50.549,0:54:52.339
world through the power of learning.

0:54:52.339,0:54:59.000
Visit tvo.org and make a tax-deductible donation today.