1 00:00:00,650 --> 00:00:02,810 [Applause] 2 00:00:04,490 --> 00:00:05,779 Good morning. 3 00:00:05,779 --> 00:00:07,259 Very, very excited to be here. 4 00:00:08,148 --> 00:00:10,180 This, I think, is probably the largest crowd 5 00:00:10,180 --> 00:00:11,929 that I've spoken to before. 6 00:00:11,999 --> 00:00:14,568 And it's kind of interesting to see how ... 7 00:00:16,369 --> 00:00:17,790 I probably wouldn't be here 8 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:19,619 if it wasn't for going out and learning 9 00:00:19,619 --> 00:00:21,980 and practicing Street Epistemology. 10 00:00:22,220 --> 00:00:24,389 And I think one of the reasons why I'm up here is 11 00:00:24,409 --> 00:00:27,850 because this approach has really sparked an interest. 12 00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:30,319 I'm just a regular guy who decided to go out 13 00:00:30,319 --> 00:00:33,050 and just have conversations with people. 14 00:00:33,050 --> 00:00:35,010 And I think it's gotten a lot of attention 15 00:00:35,010 --> 00:00:36,900 from folks and I'm very excited to share it with you. 16 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:39,850 I think this actually could be 17 00:00:39,850 --> 00:00:41,960 a turning point for atheism. 18 00:00:41,990 --> 00:00:43,929 I forgot that I have slides. There we go. 19 00:00:44,194 --> 00:00:46,004 [Laughing] 20 00:00:46,926 --> 00:00:47,926 Okay. 21 00:00:48,939 --> 00:00:51,240 And I think Street Epistemology is going 22 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,070 to be critical to the success of atheism. 23 00:00:55,070 --> 00:00:57,830 Which is why I'm very excited to tell you about it. 24 00:00:57,830 --> 00:01:00,269 We're gonna get really into 25 00:01:00,269 --> 00:01:03,130 my journey and this method. 26 00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:08,530 Okay. 27 00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:11,510 I also want to talk a little bit about truth. 28 00:01:11,550 --> 00:01:14,160 I want to kind of take a step back a little bit. 29 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:17,630 When we have conversations with people, 30 00:01:17,630 --> 00:01:19,950 usually we're interested in 31 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:22,220 changing their mind or helping them to 32 00:01:22,220 --> 00:01:24,220 believe true things and usually we want 33 00:01:24,220 --> 00:01:25,970 to believe true things as well. 34 00:01:26,140 --> 00:01:28,310 So, we engage in debate or dialogue 35 00:01:28,370 --> 00:01:30,060 or conversation with them. 36 00:01:30,530 --> 00:01:32,519 But we have to remind ourselves 37 00:01:32,609 --> 00:01:35,510 that we ourselves are just as capable of believing things 38 00:01:35,620 --> 00:01:36,869 that are not true. 39 00:01:36,869 --> 00:01:38,189 It's entirely possible 40 00:01:38,189 --> 00:01:40,710 that a lot of the things that I believe are not true. 41 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,590 So, what is the best way to determine what is true? 42 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:51,840 What is the best way to determine what is not true? 43 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:56,910 These are questions that have troubled humanity from the beginning, 44 00:01:57,980 --> 00:02:04,379 but as atheists I think we try to accomplish this question about God 45 00:02:04,399 --> 00:02:07,088 when we engage in debate with people we tend to argue 46 00:02:07,088 --> 00:02:09,898 with them or discuss the finer points 47 00:02:09,918 --> 00:02:12,100 of the Bible, for example. 48 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,470 And it's oftentimes hard to get 49 00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:16,230 into the mindset of a believer 50 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:19,430 unless you discuss what that person believes. 51 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:22,700 We tend to focus a lot about that. 52 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:24,820 We tend to focus a lot about what the person believes 53 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,470 as opposed to their reasons or their method. 54 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:29,570 And I think it's really important 55 00:02:29,570 --> 00:02:34,030 that as atheists we need to find a better way 56 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:35,990 of figuring out what is true 57 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,900 and helping people figure out what is not true. 58 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:40,740 And again that's why I'm so excited to be here 59 00:02:40,750 --> 00:02:42,220 to tell you about this method 60 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:45,210 because I think this might be the thing 61 00:02:45,230 --> 00:02:47,780 that helps atheists have better conversations 62 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,270 with the believers who are making these claims. 63 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:53,090 Okay. 64 00:02:53,230 --> 00:02:54,435 I brought along-- 65 00:02:54,445 --> 00:02:55,682 Oh, did I kick out... 66 00:02:55,682 --> 00:02:56,630 Bruce here? 67 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:00,600 Can you maximize that? 68 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,660 Okay, that may have been my fault-- 69 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,580 Okay. So, I brought along a couple of video clips here. 70 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:08,700 So, just still just a little warning. 71 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:10,290 The first video clip I want to show you 72 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:11,730 is about two minutes long. 73 00:03:11,770 --> 00:03:13,380 I've got five video clips total, 74 00:03:13,390 --> 00:03:16,380 but I want to kind of show you how I used to go out 75 00:03:16,390 --> 00:03:18,460 and have talks with believers. 76 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,680 This is a street preacher in front of the Alamo. 77 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:24,150 And this was back in 2012. 78 00:03:24,150 --> 00:03:26,210 This is about two minutes long. 79 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,140 He does talk about hell during this video. 80 00:03:30,140 --> 00:03:33,060 So, fair warning if that troubles you. 81 00:03:33,130 --> 00:03:35,420 You might want to be aware of that. 82 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,680 Oh, there are some people that are really troubled by it and that's fine. 83 00:03:39,730 --> 00:03:40,930 So, just fair warning. 84 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:43,650 And this is NOT an example of Street Epistemology. 85 00:03:43,650 --> 00:03:45,540 Don't watch this video, walk out and think: 86 00:03:45,590 --> 00:03:48,470 �Oh, that's what Street Epistemology is.� 87 00:03:48,490 --> 00:03:50,510 And the other takeaway I wanted to let you know 88 00:03:50,510 --> 00:03:52,880 is that I'm not really proud of this exchange. 89 00:03:53,125 --> 00:03:54,125 [Laughing] 90 00:03:54,370 --> 00:03:55,620 So, here we go. 91 00:03:55,690 --> 00:03:56,359 Street preacher Phil. 92 00:03:56,359 --> 00:03:57,028 IL: Jesus says, 93 00:03:57,028 --> 00:03:57,842 [Playing video clip] 94 00:03:58,004 --> 00:04:00,814 "My mother and my brotheren are these 95 00:04:00,827 --> 00:04:02,447 which hear the word of God and do it." 96 00:04:02,655 --> 00:04:04,145 AM: You said that already. 97 00:04:04,195 --> 00:04:06,419 IL: You have the Word of God. It's in the King James Bible. 98 00:04:06,419 --> 00:04:08,410 It's not the Book of Mormon. 99 00:04:09,140 --> 00:04:10,900 It's not the Kabbalah. 100 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:13,660 It's not the Babylonian Talmud. 101 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,029 There's just a word of God. 102 00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:17,279 The King James Bible. 103 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,579 AM: There's just as much evidence 104 00:04:18,579 --> 00:04:20,789 for those Gods as there's for your God. 105 00:04:20,789 --> 00:04:21,639 IL: Not really. 106 00:04:21,659 --> 00:04:22,669 AM: Yes, there is. 107 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:24,510 There's zero evidence. 108 00:04:24,530 --> 00:04:25,990 IL: The Scripture says: 109 00:04:26,025 --> 00:04:28,935 "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." 110 00:04:29,220 --> 00:04:32,130 AM: That's what it says, but why should we believe it today? 111 00:04:32,130 --> 00:04:33,510 Why should we believe that? 112 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:36,350 IL: Now are you a Mormon or a Baptist or a Catholic 113 00:04:36,350 --> 00:04:39,400 or a Methodist, but are you saved? 114 00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:41,580 The Bible says we must be saved. 115 00:04:42,490 --> 00:04:45,870 Jesus saved me in 1987 in the month of December 116 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,970 and I'm not going back to what I was. 117 00:04:48,990 --> 00:04:51,470 I'm no better than anybody else 118 00:04:51,470 --> 00:04:54,060 but, my friends, as a street preacher 119 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:58,500 I gotta warn you: There is a hell and you're going there. 120 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:00,430 AM: There's absolutely no there's 121 00:05:00,430 --> 00:05:03,010 absolutely no evidence for a hell 122 00:05:03,010 --> 00:05:06,440 or a heaven or a purgatory. 123 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:09,010 There's no evidence for that at all. 124 00:05:09,530 --> 00:05:11,050 IL: You'll find out! 125 00:05:11,350 --> 00:05:14,070 AM: How could you believe in something now 126 00:05:14,070 --> 00:05:16,730 without even knowing that it's true? 127 00:05:16,730 --> 00:05:19,480 AM: You point to the Bible again. 128 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,140 There's no evidence that the Bible is true. 129 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:23,960 IL: You don't believe it, dude. 130 00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:26,020 AM: Of course I don't. I'm not convinced that it is true. 131 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:27,290 IL: Well, that's all right. 132 00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:29,440 I'm not condemning you because you don't, man! 133 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:30,240 AM: You're making the claim. 134 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,570 You need to prove to me that it is true. 135 00:05:31,570 --> 00:05:33,160 IL: I don't have to prove to you anything. 136 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:33,907 AM: Yes, you do! 137 00:05:33,907 --> 00:05:36,773 You can't stand out here and make claims as if it's a fact! 138 00:05:36,773 --> 00:05:38,090 IL: Right here, man, that's my facts! 139 00:05:38,090 --> 00:05:39,440 AM: And scare these people and young kids. 140 00:05:39,505 --> 00:05:40,457 IL: Hey, listen dude ... 141 00:05:40,457 --> 00:05:41,917 AM: What's wrong with you? 142 00:05:42,053 --> 00:05:43,043 [Laughter] 143 00:05:43,176 --> 00:05:44,846 [Applause] 144 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:54,810 I was kind of hoping that would NOT draw an applause line� 145 00:05:55,029 --> 00:05:56,519 [Laughter] 146 00:05:56,909 --> 00:06:00,040 You know, at the time it felt good to humiliate him. 147 00:06:00,070 --> 00:06:00,880 It really did. 148 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,939 He was saying this nonsense and just yelling things and ... 149 00:06:05,979 --> 00:06:07,459 I wasn't aware that there is 150 00:06:07,459 --> 00:06:10,059 a potentially better way to interact with believers. 151 00:06:10,059 --> 00:06:11,710 So, I was arguing with him. 152 00:06:11,730 --> 00:06:14,010 I was just doing what just seemed natural 153 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,770 to point him to evidence, 154 00:06:15,770 --> 00:06:17,729 to challenge what he was saying. 155 00:06:17,729 --> 00:06:20,830 And I didn't realize it at the time 156 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:23,310 that it probably didn't make me as an atheist 157 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:26,539 look very good standing out there. 158 00:06:26,539 --> 00:06:28,739 As I watch this even I noticed that he explains 159 00:06:28,739 --> 00:06:31,110 why he believes that it was true. 160 00:06:31,110 --> 00:06:33,300 He had a difficulty way back 161 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:34,870 when he gave an exact date. 162 00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:36,500 There was some momentous occasion 163 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:38,280 and he didn't want to go back to that time. 164 00:06:38,570 --> 00:06:39,800 He didn't want to go back 165 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,409 to that time of where he was hurting. 166 00:06:41,449 --> 00:06:44,160 So, there's the motivation behind his belief. 167 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,700 But I couldn't even see it 168 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:47,250 because I was so interested in arguing 169 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:50,389 with him and tearing him down. 170 00:06:50,389 --> 00:06:54,270 However, that approach I think does have its place. 171 00:06:54,270 --> 00:06:56,920 If you look there's people in the background watching. 172 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:58,140 There's a young couple there. 173 00:06:58,140 --> 00:07:00,150 Behind the sign there's a little kid. 174 00:07:00,150 --> 00:07:01,930 And you never know what that 175 00:07:01,930 --> 00:07:03,350 takeaway may have been. 176 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:05,710 They may have been shocked to hear somebody 177 00:07:05,710 --> 00:07:07,980 standing up to a believer making a claim. 178 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:10,680 They may have gone home to figure out is the Bible true. 179 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,330 You never know how that may 180 00:07:12,330 --> 00:07:14,300 have landed with people observing. 181 00:07:15,350 --> 00:07:17,289 But let's think about Phil. 182 00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:21,440 Do you think that his mind was changed that day? 183 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,290 It's probably unlikely. 184 00:07:23,330 --> 00:07:27,859 More than likely he went home, read his Bible, said a prayer 185 00:07:27,859 --> 00:07:30,280 and was emboldened by that conversation. 186 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,209 He's probably thinking that it's more true now than ever before 187 00:07:34,229 --> 00:07:36,709 because his belief stood up 188 00:07:36,709 --> 00:07:39,109 to the scrutiny of somebody yelling at him. 189 00:07:39,109 --> 00:07:42,020 And just a little side note: 190 00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:43,149 I follow the street preacher community a little bit. 191 00:07:43,149 --> 00:07:45,170 They love it when people argue with them. 192 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:46,820 They love getting crowds. 193 00:07:46,820 --> 00:07:48,690 One of the worst things I think you could do 194 00:07:48,690 --> 00:07:50,410 is argue with a street preacher 195 00:07:50,410 --> 00:07:52,550 and draw a crowd because they see that as a success. 196 00:07:52,550 --> 00:07:55,299 So, please try to avoid doing that if you can. 197 00:07:56,099 --> 00:07:59,000 Now, I wasn't that aggressive with my family members. 198 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,650 Okay, there was a brother-in-law. 199 00:08:00,650 --> 00:08:02,385 Maybe I was a little bit like that. 200 00:08:02,385 --> 00:08:03,505 [Laughter] 201 00:08:03,532 --> 00:08:05,252 But I'd laugh at them 202 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:07,080 and I'd spend hours digging up facts 203 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,209 to show that they were mistaken 204 00:08:09,209 --> 00:08:11,339 and I jeopardized those relationships 205 00:08:11,389 --> 00:08:13,170 and I'm still trying to rebuild them. 206 00:08:13,170 --> 00:08:15,850 Even though my style has changed completely from that, 207 00:08:15,850 --> 00:08:18,761 I'm still trying to repair those relationships 208 00:08:18,761 --> 00:08:19,781 and that's what kind 209 00:08:19,781 --> 00:08:20,661 of one of the reasons why I'm so eager 210 00:08:20,661 --> 00:08:22,381 to be talking to you today 211 00:08:22,381 --> 00:08:25,651 because I suspect that many people have damaged 212 00:08:25,651 --> 00:08:27,381 relationships with their loved ones 213 00:08:27,381 --> 00:08:30,271 and friends and co-workers and so forth. 214 00:08:30,471 --> 00:08:32,131 And I'm really excited to be able 215 00:08:32,131 --> 00:08:34,010 to tell you about this approach. 216 00:08:35,321 --> 00:08:36,440 So, let's talk a little bit 217 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,181 about Street Epistemology here. 218 00:08:40,361 --> 00:08:41,361 Okay. 219 00:08:43,461 --> 00:08:46,121 I think Street Epistemology might be 220 00:08:46,121 --> 00:08:49,891 the best approach for having one-on-one conversations 221 00:08:49,891 --> 00:08:52,581 with people about their deeply held belief. 222 00:08:52,611 --> 00:08:54,531 I understand that that's a bold claim, 223 00:08:54,531 --> 00:08:56,681 but I've been doing this for five years 224 00:08:56,681 --> 00:08:59,671 and I've had profound one-on-one conversations, 225 00:08:59,671 --> 00:09:01,011 sometimes two-on-one. 226 00:09:01,011 --> 00:09:02,481 I'll talked to a Mormon couple. 227 00:09:02,481 --> 00:09:05,971 And we've talked for 30 minutes and it was one of the best conversations 228 00:09:05,971 --> 00:09:07,661 that I think I've ever had. 229 00:09:07,661 --> 00:09:10,481 So, before I could explain why I think 230 00:09:10,481 --> 00:09:12,441 Street Epistemology is going to be 231 00:09:12,441 --> 00:09:14,241 fundamental to the success of atheism 232 00:09:14,241 --> 00:09:16,000 --that it's a turning point 233 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,981 --I need to explain to you what Street Epistemology is. 234 00:09:17,981 --> 00:09:20,881 So, the "street" part of it simply means: 235 00:09:20,881 --> 00:09:22,131 "laymen engagements." 236 00:09:22,131 --> 00:09:24,391 You're having a conversation with somebody. 237 00:09:24,391 --> 00:09:26,891 You're not necessarily an expert in the Quran 238 00:09:26,891 --> 00:09:29,031 or the Bible or what the claim is, 239 00:09:29,031 --> 00:09:30,801 but you can engage with them. 240 00:09:30,801 --> 00:09:32,931 It's actually one of the strengths of this method, I think, 241 00:09:32,931 --> 00:09:34,401 is that you don't really have 242 00:09:34,401 --> 00:09:36,171 to be well-versed in the doctrine 243 00:09:36,171 --> 00:09:37,600 to have these dialogues. 244 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,541 In fact, I think the less you know about the claim 245 00:09:41,541 --> 00:09:43,671 the better questions you'll form 246 00:09:43,671 --> 00:09:45,761 when you have these conversations. 247 00:09:45,761 --> 00:09:48,651 So, the "epistemology" part is the study of knowledge. 248 00:09:48,651 --> 00:09:52,531 It's how a person determined that their belief is true. 249 00:09:52,531 --> 00:09:54,900 When you hear the word "epistemology", 250 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,141 my recommendation would be: 251 00:09:56,141 --> 00:09:57,710 Just think of the word "method". 252 00:09:57,710 --> 00:10:00,261 Think of technique, think of approach. 253 00:10:00,261 --> 00:10:01,891 Something like that. 254 00:10:01,891 --> 00:10:04,941 I like to think of SE as a tool that we can use 255 00:10:04,941 --> 00:10:07,491 to challenge people respectfully. 256 00:10:09,571 --> 00:10:11,291 And this isn't my creation. 257 00:10:11,291 --> 00:10:12,751 I didn't come up with this. 258 00:10:12,751 --> 00:10:14,151 This came from a book called 259 00:10:14,151 --> 00:10:17,231 'A Manual for Creating Atheists' by Dr. Peter Boghossian. 260 00:10:17,231 --> 00:10:21,061 And it's based on the Socratic Method. 261 00:10:22,301 --> 00:10:23,451 I read the book, 262 00:10:23,451 --> 00:10:25,011 I started looking for examples online 263 00:10:25,011 --> 00:10:27,471 and there were no examples at all. 264 00:10:28,611 --> 00:10:29,931 And I would go out. 265 00:10:29,931 --> 00:10:32,451 I was going out to try to do Street Epistemology. 266 00:10:32,451 --> 00:10:34,431 There was one good "why" question in there. 267 00:10:34,431 --> 00:10:35,881 When I was yelling at that preacher: 268 00:10:35,881 --> 00:10:37,601 "Why do you think that it's true?" 269 00:10:37,601 --> 00:10:39,841 But there was no rapport building, 270 00:10:39,851 --> 00:10:42,031 the tone was horrible, 271 00:10:42,031 --> 00:10:45,811 and I certainly wasn't trying to understand his methodology. 272 00:10:45,811 --> 00:10:48,531 So, I've been going out 273 00:10:48,531 --> 00:10:50,771 and trying to sort of perfect that 274 00:10:50,771 --> 00:10:52,511 or hone this method the last five years. 275 00:10:52,511 --> 00:10:55,111 Here's the definition of it. 276 00:10:55,111 --> 00:10:56,251 Couple points of here. 277 00:10:56,281 --> 00:10:59,231 Street Epistemology is a conversational tool. 278 00:10:59,231 --> 00:11:00,231 It's not a debate. 279 00:11:01,031 --> 00:11:04,571 It's a polite discussion and it is a tool. 280 00:11:04,571 --> 00:11:05,971 It's something that you can use 281 00:11:05,971 --> 00:11:09,661 if the situation is appropriate depending on your goals. 282 00:11:09,661 --> 00:11:12,261 And the conversations tend 283 00:11:12,261 --> 00:11:14,151 to help people reflect or think 284 00:11:14,151 --> 00:11:17,221 about their belief long after the conversation ends. 285 00:11:17,541 --> 00:11:19,511 When I have a dialogue with somebody 286 00:11:19,511 --> 00:11:20,961 if they think about it then and there 287 00:11:20,961 --> 00:11:22,191 but never think about it again, 288 00:11:22,191 --> 00:11:24,391 then that's really not much of a success to me. 289 00:11:24,901 --> 00:11:26,801 I want these conversations 290 00:11:26,801 --> 00:11:28,691 to resonate with folks. 291 00:11:29,021 --> 00:11:32,311 And then we challenge the method that they used. 292 00:11:32,311 --> 00:11:34,011 Did they use a reliable method 293 00:11:34,011 --> 00:11:35,561 to come to that conclusion? 294 00:11:37,261 --> 00:11:37,971 All right. 295 00:11:38,801 --> 00:11:40,371 So, one of the things I think 296 00:11:40,371 --> 00:11:42,341 I need to kind of get out of the way really quick 297 00:11:42,341 --> 00:11:44,501 are some misconceptions of this, 298 00:11:44,501 --> 00:11:46,961 because the word "street" is in there 299 00:11:47,501 --> 00:11:49,671 and a lot of the examples are people 300 00:11:49,671 --> 00:11:51,101 going out with video cameras 301 00:11:51,101 --> 00:11:52,881 and uploading their conversations 302 00:11:52,881 --> 00:11:54,571 and they're like; "Oh, you're just like 303 00:11:54,571 --> 00:11:56,871 proselytizing for atheism there. 304 00:11:56,871 --> 00:11:58,721 �This is like Ray Comfort or something." 305 00:11:59,421 --> 00:12:02,101 There are no bananas in Street Epistemology. 306 00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:03,446 [Laughing] 307 00:12:03,458 --> 00:12:04,728 [Applause] 308 00:12:06,221 --> 00:12:09,151 Street Epistemology honestly is about helping people. 309 00:12:09,281 --> 00:12:10,861 It's helping people slow down 310 00:12:10,861 --> 00:12:12,641 and think about the belief that they formed. 311 00:12:12,641 --> 00:12:14,311 And did they use a reliable method. 312 00:12:14,311 --> 00:12:15,821 And it's not just about God claims. 313 00:12:15,821 --> 00:12:17,201 It could be about anything. 314 00:12:17,201 --> 00:12:18,721 Some of my best conversations have been 315 00:12:18,721 --> 00:12:21,671 with atheists who are dogmatically sure there are no Gods. 316 00:12:23,371 --> 00:12:26,011 SE is really good about encouraging 317 00:12:26,011 --> 00:12:28,291 people to be less dogmatic 318 00:12:28,291 --> 00:12:30,581 about the beliefs that they formed. 319 00:12:32,341 --> 00:12:34,191 And we try to uncover truth. 320 00:12:34,191 --> 00:12:37,851 Now these conversations can be initiated or organic. 321 00:12:38,351 --> 00:12:40,901 My preference is to have an organic chat 322 00:12:40,901 --> 00:12:42,501 like when I get in an Uber, 323 00:12:42,501 --> 00:12:44,241 I almost always have a chat 324 00:12:44,241 --> 00:12:45,931 with the driver about something. 325 00:12:45,931 --> 00:12:47,801 They make a claim and it's game on. 326 00:12:47,801 --> 00:12:51,041 I can start asking questions and we usually end it on good terms 327 00:12:51,041 --> 00:12:53,081 and they usually give me a 5 star rating. 328 00:12:53,081 --> 00:12:55,051 So, I think that's okay. 329 00:12:55,051 --> 00:12:59,361 And I do the same for them. 330 00:12:59,361 --> 00:13:00,721 So, I can understand how people might make the connection 331 00:13:00,721 --> 00:13:03,981 that this is like atheist evangelizing or something 332 00:13:04,621 --> 00:13:08,831 and I'm here giving a talk on Street Epistemology to American Atheists. 333 00:13:08,831 --> 00:13:11,171 So, I could understand how you can make that connection. 334 00:13:11,171 --> 00:13:14,511 But this is a tool that can be used for all different types of claims. 335 00:13:14,511 --> 00:13:17,851 It doesn't just have to be about challenging people about God. 336 00:13:17,851 --> 00:13:21,541 And this is so much about placing a pebble in a person's shoe, 337 00:13:22,331 --> 00:13:26,311 helping the person reflect on their belief formation process, 338 00:13:26,311 --> 00:13:28,761 so later, when the conversation�s over, 339 00:13:29,851 --> 00:13:33,011 they can ask themselves: "Do I need to maintain this belief?" 340 00:13:33,011 --> 00:13:35,431 "Do I need to lower my confidence in this belief?" 341 00:13:36,501 --> 00:13:38,691 "Should I discard this belief outright?" 342 00:13:39,801 --> 00:13:43,021 So, I wanted to put Street Epistemology in graphical form. 343 00:13:43,021 --> 00:13:47,301 Now, I have had a thousand conversations at least. 344 00:13:47,301 --> 00:13:49,361 I started looking at transcripts 345 00:13:49,361 --> 00:13:51,771 and I started noticing a little pattern: 346 00:13:51,771 --> 00:13:53,781 That we spend a little bit of time talking 347 00:13:53,781 --> 00:13:55,241 about what they believe, 348 00:13:55,241 --> 00:13:57,821 a little bit more time talking about why they believe it, 349 00:13:58,861 --> 00:14:00,531 but we spend a lot more time talking 350 00:14:00,551 --> 00:14:02,661 about how they determined that that belief is true. 351 00:14:02,881 --> 00:14:07,571 And that I think is what makes these conversations unique, 352 00:14:07,571 --> 00:14:10,201 and Socratic, and Street Epistemology, 353 00:14:10,201 --> 00:14:12,961 is that we're interested in their methodology. 354 00:14:12,961 --> 00:14:15,361 Here's a different way of looking at it. 355 00:14:15,831 --> 00:14:18,091 Same pyramid, but different words. 356 00:14:18,091 --> 00:14:19,991 So, we're interested in what they believe. 357 00:14:20,011 --> 00:14:21,681 We want to understand their reasons, 358 00:14:21,681 --> 00:14:22,861 their main reason, 359 00:14:22,861 --> 00:14:25,511 but it's the methodology that they used. 360 00:14:25,511 --> 00:14:27,751 So, when you think of Street Epistemology, think "method." 361 00:14:27,761 --> 00:14:29,571 We're very, very interested in the method. 362 00:14:29,571 --> 00:14:31,501 Because if the method is faulty, 363 00:14:32,721 --> 00:14:35,791 all the other things above it collapse. 364 00:14:36,721 --> 00:14:37,601 Okay. 365 00:14:37,701 --> 00:14:41,591 Now, that doesn't mean that what they're believing is not true. 366 00:14:41,611 --> 00:14:43,471 If they've based it on it [on an unreliable foundation]. 367 00:14:43,471 --> 00:14:45,651 I could base something on faith. 368 00:14:45,651 --> 00:14:47,441 I can realize it's a faulty methodology 369 00:14:47,441 --> 00:14:50,141 and what I'm believing could actually still be true. 370 00:14:50,141 --> 00:14:55,631 I get that, but ones confidence should probably be adjusted accordingly 371 00:14:55,701 --> 00:14:58,821 if they learned that their method was unreliable. 372 00:14:59,571 --> 00:15:00,521 Okay. 373 00:15:00,691 --> 00:15:02,301 A couple of video examples here. 374 00:15:04,201 --> 00:15:05,851 I want to talk to that actually. 375 00:15:05,851 --> 00:15:09,961 So, I was also thinking about these little [pyramid] sections here. 376 00:15:10,131 --> 00:15:12,401 When we talk about what a person believes, 377 00:15:12,401 --> 00:15:15,331 that's usually what the preacher tells you in Church. 378 00:15:15,331 --> 00:15:17,301 �This is what the Bible says," 379 00:15:17,301 --> 00:15:19,211 �This is what we believe." 380 00:15:19,211 --> 00:15:20,811 When you get to the apologists, 381 00:15:20,811 --> 00:15:22,071 the people that defend the faith. 382 00:15:22,071 --> 00:15:24,841 There was a guy [during the Q&A of the previous speaker] who said he was an apologist.. 383 00:15:24,841 --> 00:15:26,671 These are folks that defend the faith. 384 00:15:26,671 --> 00:15:29,431 They come up with reasons to justify the belief. 385 00:15:29,701 --> 00:15:30,486 Okay. 386 00:15:30,486 --> 00:15:31,911 So, there's this reason level, 387 00:15:31,911 --> 00:15:36,101 but very few people are looking at their foundation. 388 00:15:36,611 --> 00:15:39,321 And that's why these questions I think are powerful. 389 00:15:39,341 --> 00:15:41,731 Because we're not concerned with what you believe. 390 00:15:41,731 --> 00:15:45,441 We're not really concerned with why, but how did you determine that it's true. 391 00:15:45,441 --> 00:15:47,501 And the apologists are taken aback by this. 392 00:15:47,561 --> 00:15:49,371 I'll get into this a little bit later. 393 00:15:49,371 --> 00:15:51,091 They're a little worried about this. 394 00:15:51,091 --> 00:15:52,191 Okay! 395 00:15:54,001 --> 00:15:56,951 When I first started doing this there were no video examples. 396 00:15:56,951 --> 00:16:00,291 Today there are hundreds and some of my favorites are not even mine. 397 00:16:00,401 --> 00:16:02,781 It's really neat to see other people 398 00:16:02,781 --> 00:16:05,671 going out, people in France and England. 399 00:16:06,941 --> 00:16:08,031 Finland, for example. 400 00:16:08,031 --> 00:16:11,791 They are going out and having talks all across the United States. 401 00:16:12,601 --> 00:16:14,721 And this is probably an understatement, 402 00:16:14,721 --> 00:16:17,971 but Street Epistemology did not come naturally to me. 403 00:16:19,111 --> 00:16:22,671 I was arguing with street preacher Phil there 404 00:16:23,001 --> 00:16:25,771 for a good year and a half, I was. 405 00:16:25,931 --> 00:16:27,481 But I was getting out of it. 406 00:16:27,481 --> 00:16:32,171 It was evolving, but uploading these videos, as horrible as they were, 407 00:16:32,321 --> 00:16:34,511 I was getting feedback from folks saying; 408 00:16:34,511 --> 00:16:36,721 "Hey, is that really Street Epistemology?" 409 00:16:36,721 --> 00:16:39,921 And, "Shouldn't you be asking questions rather than telling them what to think." 410 00:16:39,921 --> 00:16:42,471 So, it was changing the way that I was behaving, 411 00:16:42,471 --> 00:16:45,491 it was changing my interactions, and I think, for the better. 412 00:16:46,391 --> 00:16:50,181 So, I realized that it's kind of difficult to explain what Street Epistemology is. 413 00:16:50,181 --> 00:16:51,991 I want to show you a couple of examples. 414 00:16:51,991 --> 00:16:54,591 I have four little video clips, and they're super short. 415 00:16:55,481 --> 00:16:57,801 This next one this is a good one. 416 00:17:00,681 --> 00:17:02,411 A couple of things here. 417 00:17:02,411 --> 00:17:04,421 I'm going to make sure not to laugh into the mic. 418 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:06,680 So, a couple things here. 419 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,189 Set aside your view on pornography whether you think it's harmful or not. 420 00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:12,901 That's not the point of this little clip. 421 00:17:13,069 --> 00:17:15,799 The point is to demonstrate the mechanics of Street Epistemology. 422 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:17,770 This also shows that you don't have 423 00:17:17,770 --> 00:17:20,740 to use Street Epistemology for just God claims. 424 00:17:20,740 --> 00:17:22,201 It's excellent for it, 425 00:17:22,201 --> 00:17:25,339 but in this case the topic of pornography comes up here. 426 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,050 And the other takeaway, I think, 427 00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:30,861 is try to set aside your biases. 428 00:17:30,861 --> 00:17:33,561 When I'm having a dialogue with a person, 429 00:17:35,151 --> 00:17:38,171 my stance on pornography is not important at this point. 430 00:17:38,671 --> 00:17:41,721 I want to understand why HE thinks that it's harmful for example. 431 00:17:41,721 --> 00:17:43,781 So, that's what this conversation is about. 432 00:17:44,341 --> 00:17:47,541 And pay close attention to the real reason 433 00:17:47,541 --> 00:17:50,941 why he holds his view on pornography. 434 00:17:50,941 --> 00:17:53,951 IL: The scientific evidence is 435 00:17:53,951 --> 00:17:55,801 just like any kind of drug, you know, 436 00:17:55,801 --> 00:17:57,571 like, the first time you watch it. 437 00:17:57,571 --> 00:17:59,061 AM: Do you value scientific evidence? 438 00:17:59,061 --> 00:18:00,341 IL: Yeah, yeah, definitely. 439 00:18:00,341 --> 00:18:05,291 AM: Denzel, if we can provide you, 440 00:18:05,291 --> 00:18:08,181 if I can provide you or somebody that follows us closely.. 441 00:18:08,361 --> 00:18:11,241 If I discovered some scientific evidence that showed that everything 442 00:18:11,251 --> 00:18:14,551 that you've just described very eloquently, 443 00:18:14,571 --> 00:18:18,201 that it doesn't work in that way. 444 00:18:18,211 --> 00:18:20,371 They've interviewed 10,000 porn stars 445 00:18:20,371 --> 00:18:22,651 and a hundred thousand men and women. 446 00:18:22,651 --> 00:18:29,071 And the overall result suggests that it's a positive. 447 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:30,216 All right. 448 00:18:30,216 --> 00:18:33,021 People feel better about themselves. They�re living longer, 449 00:18:33,051 --> 00:18:36,601 marriages are actually prospering, 450 00:18:36,601 --> 00:18:39,091 crime is going down, like across the board. 451 00:18:39,091 --> 00:18:40,301 And I don't even know if that can even be measured, 452 00:18:40,301 --> 00:18:48,751 but if it could, if there was a reliable study that 453 00:18:48,751 --> 00:18:52,361 showed something completely different than what you're outlining just now, 454 00:18:52,391 --> 00:18:55,181 would you change your mind on it? 455 00:18:56,496 --> 00:18:57,766 IL: No, I wouldn't. 456 00:18:57,801 --> 00:18:59,711 Because at the end of the day 457 00:18:59,721 --> 00:19:04,081 I do value like, you know, scientific evidence, historical evidence 458 00:19:04,081 --> 00:19:06,461 and that kind of stuff. 459 00:19:06,461 --> 00:19:08,291 But at the heart of it I'm a Christian. 460 00:19:08,291 --> 00:19:10,171 So, I live by a finite set of principles. 461 00:19:11,851 --> 00:19:12,661 Okay. 462 00:19:14,751 --> 00:19:15,921 That was Denzel. 463 00:19:16,541 --> 00:19:18,941 So, we could have spent a lot of time wasted 464 00:19:18,941 --> 00:19:20,831 just discussing pornography, 465 00:19:22,171 --> 00:19:24,451 because he admits there that it's not based on evidence. 466 00:19:24,451 --> 00:19:26,051 Even if he was shown evidence 467 00:19:26,051 --> 00:19:28,391 that it was not harmful, he'd still hold the belief. 468 00:19:28,601 --> 00:19:31,541 And that's what I love about this method is that it's efficient. 469 00:19:31,571 --> 00:19:34,841 You don't have to spend any time arguing about things that don't matter. 470 00:19:35,511 --> 00:19:39,441 If somebody raises contradictions in the Bible as their reason, but they�d 471 00:19:39,441 --> 00:19:42,401 still believe if every contradiction was adequately explained, 472 00:19:42,401 --> 00:19:45,321 don't discuss contradictions with them. 473 00:19:45,321 --> 00:19:46,431 Move on to the real reasons. 474 00:19:46,431 --> 00:19:47,431 Get to the core. 475 00:19:47,431 --> 00:19:49,011 Get to the lowest level. 476 00:19:49,161 --> 00:19:52,591 And that�s what I think is so great about Street Epistemology. 477 00:19:52,591 --> 00:19:53,881 If I were to meet with him again, 478 00:19:53,961 --> 00:19:56,131 I wouldn't discuss porn at all. 479 00:19:56,151 --> 00:19:58,311 I would talk about why he thinks his God is real. 480 00:19:59,291 --> 00:20:00,881 And what's really interesting is 481 00:20:00,881 --> 00:20:03,261 that once that God belief goes, 482 00:20:03,261 --> 00:20:04,051 so many other beliefs fall away. 483 00:20:04,051 --> 00:20:06,191 Well, and I'm sure many people here used to believe in God.. 484 00:20:06,191 --> 00:20:07,621 Once you lose that God belief, 485 00:20:07,621 --> 00:20:09,581 so many other things fall by the wayside. 486 00:20:10,501 --> 00:20:12,801 So, I'd love the efficiency of this approach. 487 00:20:13,651 --> 00:20:16,161 And you may have noticed that 488 00:20:16,161 --> 00:20:18,491 I didn't give him statistics 489 00:20:18,491 --> 00:20:21,771 to show how beneficial pornography was or anything like that. 490 00:20:21,771 --> 00:20:23,891 It probably would've been way more 491 00:20:23,891 --> 00:20:25,261 likely [this this talk] would have been 492 00:20:25,261 --> 00:20:26,971 a waste of time with this individual. 493 00:20:26,971 --> 00:20:28,811 In fact, there's this thing called the backfire effect. 494 00:20:30,121 --> 00:20:31,481 I don't know if I'm... 495 00:20:31,481 --> 00:20:33,511 Show of hands, who's heard of this before? 496 00:20:34,231 --> 00:20:35,971 Lots of hands, good. Okay. 497 00:20:36,711 --> 00:20:38,401 So, this is somewhat controversial. 498 00:20:38,431 --> 00:20:40,661 This is a hypothesis that suggests 499 00:20:40,661 --> 00:20:42,731 that if you provide people with evidence 500 00:20:42,731 --> 00:20:43,990 that shows that they're mistaken, 501 00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:46,850 especially on a belief that's very tied to who they are, 502 00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:49,571 they are less likely to accept your evidence 503 00:20:49,571 --> 00:20:51,081 and let it change their mind. 504 00:20:51,081 --> 00:20:55,801 Now, the backfire effect part of that 505 00:20:55,801 --> 00:20:58,701 is that some people even believe what they believe even more. 506 00:20:59,071 --> 00:21:01,911 There does seem to be some new research that suggests that 507 00:21:01,911 --> 00:21:04,901 people sometimes might accept your evidence, 508 00:21:04,901 --> 00:21:09,061 but their attitude doesn't change about the belief. 509 00:21:09,261 --> 00:21:11,901 So, I think we're still good with the SE thing here. 510 00:21:12,081 --> 00:21:14,541 And that's the beauty of this approach. 511 00:21:14,581 --> 00:21:16,660 We're not debating what they believe. 512 00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:18,841 We aren't dismissing their reasons. 513 00:21:18,841 --> 00:21:20,411 You don't need to know anything 514 00:21:20,411 --> 00:21:22,541 about their holy book or anything like that. 515 00:21:22,541 --> 00:21:26,111 You don't even have to provide evidence to a person when you have these talks. 516 00:21:26,111 --> 00:21:27,741 It kind of takes the pressure off. 517 00:21:27,741 --> 00:21:30,731 "I'm a questioner, help me understand, 518 00:21:30,731 --> 00:21:33,020 teach me why you think that this is true." 519 00:21:33,020 --> 00:21:35,661 When you start looking at these conversations that way, 520 00:21:36,831 --> 00:21:38,491 I think it's really like I said, 521 00:21:38,491 --> 00:21:39,801 it does take the pressure off. 522 00:21:39,801 --> 00:21:41,931 It makes these conversations so much easier. 523 00:21:46,261 --> 00:21:48,631 And somebody once described this approach 524 00:21:48,631 --> 00:21:50,981 as making people "comfortably uncomfortable." 525 00:21:50,981 --> 00:21:52,581 You may have noticed the difference 526 00:21:52,581 --> 00:21:54,330 between the conversation with Denzel 527 00:21:54,330 --> 00:21:55,471 and the one with Phil. 528 00:21:55,491 --> 00:21:57,171 How drastic a difference. 529 00:21:57,171 --> 00:21:58,591 I was asking him questions. 530 00:21:58,591 --> 00:22:01,471 I was listening to him, and that type of thing. 531 00:22:01,521 --> 00:22:02,280 Okay. 532 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,730 One more video clip. 533 00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:06,341 I've got about 15-16 minutes, it looks like, left. 534 00:22:06,761 --> 00:22:09,531 This is Gordon. This is two and a half minutes long. 535 00:22:09,531 --> 00:22:12,021 He's elderly and I picked this one 536 00:22:12,021 --> 00:22:14,561 because a lot of the early examples 537 00:22:14,561 --> 00:22:16,161 that I uploaded was me interviewing 538 00:22:16,161 --> 00:22:18,340 college-age students on campuses 539 00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:19,861 and people would say �you're just picking on young, 540 00:22:19,861 --> 00:22:21,701 inexperienced people." 541 00:22:21,901 --> 00:22:24,080 So, I said "I'm gonna go talk to some older people." 542 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,411 So, for the last two years I've been 543 00:22:25,411 --> 00:22:26,871 on this hiking trail, talking to people, 544 00:22:26,871 --> 00:22:28,481 and this is Gordon. 545 00:22:30,451 --> 00:22:32,201 So, there's really no age limit 546 00:22:32,201 --> 00:22:33,780 but during this little talk, 547 00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:35,051 which is two minutes long, 548 00:22:36,131 --> 00:22:38,591 the video will stop twice when he says something 549 00:22:38,631 --> 00:22:41,501 that I think would be raw meat to an atheist. 550 00:22:42,461 --> 00:22:43,891 Where you'd hear it and you're like: 551 00:22:43,891 --> 00:22:46,171 "There's no way he's getting away with that." 552 00:22:46,266 --> 00:22:47,266 [Laughing] 553 00:22:48,211 --> 00:22:52,141 So, the video pauses at those moments 554 00:22:52,141 --> 00:22:54,571 and a picture of my face will appear. 555 00:22:54,571 --> 00:22:57,431 I was gonna have a picture of raw meat show up. 556 00:22:57,431 --> 00:23:00,521 It's just my face like: "Mm-hmm� in a thinker�s pose. 557 00:23:00,521 --> 00:23:02,191 When that happens you'll be alerted 558 00:23:02,191 --> 00:23:04,641 to that and there's a really big reveal at the end. 559 00:23:04,641 --> 00:23:05,481 So, pay attention. 560 00:23:06,431 --> 00:23:10,351 AM: Why Gordon do you believe that a God even exists? 561 00:23:10,351 --> 00:23:12,651 IL: Because I was brought up a Christian. 562 00:23:12,651 --> 00:23:17,131 I've brought up to believe that. 563 00:23:17,811 --> 00:23:18,691 I mean. 564 00:23:19,341 --> 00:23:22,831 AM: How long have you had the belief? 565 00:23:22,831 --> 00:23:25,431 IL: Since I was able to think. 566 00:23:25,471 --> 00:23:27,071 [he laughs] 567 00:23:30,351 --> 00:23:32,651 And it gets stronger as I grew older. 568 00:23:32,651 --> 00:23:34,191 AM: Interesting. 569 00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:35,406 IL: Yeah. 570 00:23:40,141 --> 00:23:45,531 AM: Yesterday I ran into a family that had a little four month-old baby 571 00:23:45,531 --> 00:23:46,981 IL: Uh-huh. 572 00:23:46,991 --> 00:23:49,350 AM: and they identified themselves as Christians, 573 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:52,151 but they could have easily been Hindus or 574 00:23:52,151 --> 00:23:54,341 Muslims or Pagans ... 575 00:23:54,416 --> 00:23:55,568 IL: Doesn't matter. 576 00:23:55,568 --> 00:23:57,768 Well, not Pagans. Pagans are non-believers. 577 00:23:57,843 --> 00:24:01,503 [Laughing] 578 00:24:01,579 --> 00:24:04,129 But, it doesn't matter what what religion you come from 579 00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:06,590 or what your ethnicity is 580 00:24:06,610 --> 00:24:10,720 as long as you believe in a Supreme Being. 581 00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:12,651 You can call him Allah or God or 582 00:24:12,651 --> 00:24:15,581 Neihu or whatever as long as you believe 583 00:24:15,581 --> 00:24:19,321 in the same being, it doesn't matter. 584 00:24:19,971 --> 00:24:22,430 AM: Let's say that little girl is raised 585 00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:24,311 to believe that there's no God. 586 00:24:24,756 --> 00:24:26,576 IL: Well, I feel sorry for her. 587 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:29,686 [Laughing] 588 00:24:29,696 --> 00:24:32,580 AM: Would she be just as correct in her belief as you 589 00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:34,220 being raised with your belief? 590 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,401 IL: Just as correct? 591 00:24:39,651 --> 00:24:41,191 No, I mean ... 592 00:24:41,191 --> 00:24:42,211 AM: Why not? 593 00:24:42,211 --> 00:24:47,631 IL: Because just we're all created for us by God 594 00:24:47,661 --> 00:24:51,460 and we look for eternal life 595 00:24:51,460 --> 00:24:54,781 and that comes through salvation. 596 00:24:54,781 --> 00:24:58,001 And if you don't believe in God then you can't have salvation. 597 00:24:58,201 --> 00:25:02,000 AM: Are you saying that if a child 598 00:25:02,050 --> 00:25:04,661 is raised to believe in a God, 599 00:25:04,661 --> 00:25:07,830 they're justified in having the belief 600 00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:10,580 but if a child is raised to believe in no gods, they're not? 601 00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:13,291 IL: A young child has no concept 602 00:25:13,291 --> 00:25:15,481 of what's right or wrong at that point. 603 00:25:15,481 --> 00:25:17,231 They believe only what they're told 604 00:25:17,231 --> 00:25:19,551 And so what they are taught 605 00:25:19,551 --> 00:25:21,901 in the first five years of life 606 00:25:21,901 --> 00:25:24,641 will probably be with them for the rest of their life. 607 00:25:24,641 --> 00:25:26,311 Which is unfortunate. 608 00:25:26,601 --> 00:25:29,911 [Laughing] 609 00:25:34,081 --> 00:25:34,900 Okay. 610 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:39,640 So, because I avoided the raw meat 611 00:25:39,651 --> 00:25:42,200 of those two exchanges there 612 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,155 when he said that. 613 00:25:43,155 --> 00:25:44,741 He said pagans are non-believers. 614 00:25:44,741 --> 00:25:45,891 Well, that's not true. 615 00:25:45,891 --> 00:25:47,370 I could have interrupted him 616 00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:48,651 and corrected him and we could have gone on 617 00:25:48,651 --> 00:25:50,021 this different tangent, but I didn't. 618 00:25:50,021 --> 00:25:52,061 I just let it go. It's not important, really. 619 00:25:52,061 --> 00:25:54,151 And then he said; "I'd feel sorry for the little girl 620 00:25:54,151 --> 00:25:56,161 who was raised atheist." 621 00:25:56,161 --> 00:25:59,631 That pisses me off. 622 00:25:59,631 --> 00:26:01,641 I have two kids and they're the greatest kids. 623 00:26:01,641 --> 00:26:04,170 But that really has nothing to do with it. 624 00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:08,240 But if I went ... If I chased those distractions, 625 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,681 it would have been really unfortunate if I had done that 626 00:26:11,681 --> 00:26:13,070 because we wouldn't have had 627 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:16,511 that wonderful discovery at the end, really quickly. 628 00:26:19,271 --> 00:26:23,061 It's easy to be angry when you hear stuff like that. 629 00:26:23,061 --> 00:26:26,240 Okay. Because let's face it: 630 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,691 We were told lies by the people that we love and it hurts. 631 00:26:31,041 --> 00:26:32,171 We have a right to be angry. 632 00:26:32,171 --> 00:26:35,530 We really do and yet most of us found our way out. 633 00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:36,771 And I'm hopeful that 634 00:26:36,771 --> 00:26:39,301 we can channel that anger into something positive. 635 00:26:39,691 --> 00:26:41,211 Try to let those things slide 636 00:26:41,211 --> 00:26:42,801 for the benefit of the conversation, 637 00:26:42,831 --> 00:26:44,691 for the benefit of the discovery. 638 00:26:44,761 --> 00:26:47,511 Like I did there with our friend Gordon. 639 00:26:48,201 --> 00:26:49,571 Alright. I've got one more clip 640 00:26:49,641 --> 00:26:51,731 Gosh, I just have 10 minutes left. 641 00:26:51,731 --> 00:26:54,100 I think I'm going to skip this clip 642 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,091 That kills me to do that. 643 00:26:56,916 --> 00:26:58,896 [Protest from the public] 644 00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:01,761 It's not in my control. I'm sorry. 645 00:27:03,701 --> 00:27:06,791 [Laughter] 646 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:10,910 This clip that's this minute... 647 00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:12,610 I'm trying to decide where to go here. 648 00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:13,840 Alright, let's stop talking about it. 649 00:27:13,870 --> 00:27:15,000 I'm gonna show you one more clip. 650 00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:16,660 I talked about the angry atheist. 651 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,545 This is Joanna, and we're on a trail. 652 00:27:18,545 --> 00:27:21,620 She said she was ninety percent confident that God it was real. 653 00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:24,300 She pumps it up to a hundred after ten minutes into the talk. 654 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:26,480 This is about twenty minutes into the talk. 655 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,470 It's a five-minute chat 656 00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:30,110 and I want you to notice 657 00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:33,190 her thinker's pose. And notice the pacing of this, 658 00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:34,950 notice the calm nature of it, 659 00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:37,550 notice the respect and the attention, 660 00:27:37,550 --> 00:27:39,770 and the intention of wanting to fully understand 661 00:27:39,770 --> 00:27:41,170 what she's saying. 662 00:27:44,780 --> 00:27:46,910 AM: If this belief that's in your head 663 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,550 and this hundred percent certainty 664 00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:53,770 that the God exists 665 00:27:53,790 --> 00:27:58,010 is based on a foundation of you being raised and taught something, 666 00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:02,550 how can you be certain that it's actually true? 667 00:28:04,365 --> 00:28:07,075 IL: That's kind of like we we�re talking about earlier. 668 00:28:07,097 --> 00:28:10,797 It's very faith-based. 669 00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:14,170 AM: We're gonna to definitely have to unpack this faith based thing. 670 00:28:14,170 --> 00:28:16,050 IL: It's pretty broad. 671 00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:17,070 Um ... 672 00:28:17,930 --> 00:28:19,451 AM: On what is a faith based... 673 00:28:19,471 --> 00:28:22,471 IL: "Faith based" is that you can't see Him. 674 00:28:22,496 --> 00:28:24,128 You can't always hear Him. 675 00:28:24,128 --> 00:28:26,851 You just have to believe that 676 00:28:26,851 --> 00:28:28,760 He'll pull through for your favor. 677 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,450 And even if it isn't in your favor, 678 00:28:30,450 --> 00:28:32,330 that can work into your favor somehow. 679 00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:34,730 'Cause a lot of negative things happen in life, 680 00:28:34,730 --> 00:28:39,650 but really depends on which route you take. 681 00:28:40,145 --> 00:28:40,945 But... 682 00:28:41,695 --> 00:28:42,501 Gosh... 683 00:28:42,511 --> 00:28:43,641 How... 684 00:28:43,651 --> 00:28:47,060 That's the only way to put it too. 685 00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:49,940 I just think it's something that's inside of you as well. 686 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,461 Which could go along other religions, too. 687 00:28:52,501 --> 00:28:54,001 'Cause, like, being out in nature 688 00:28:54,001 --> 00:28:55,341 gives you a lot of peace. 689 00:28:55,341 --> 00:28:57,711 When I pray I have a lot of peace. 690 00:28:57,711 --> 00:29:00,001 I feel like I have more direction. 691 00:29:00,001 --> 00:29:02,211 I pause and reflect more. 692 00:29:04,531 --> 00:29:05,380 You know. 693 00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:08,730 You can never be... 694 00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:09,565 Ahh... 695 00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:12,490 kind of like you're thinking about that 90%, but... 696 00:29:14,050 --> 00:29:15,781 I don't know how else to put it! 697 00:29:15,781 --> 00:29:16,501 That's hard. 698 00:29:16,501 --> 00:29:20,811 I haven't actually talked that out with somebody before fully. 699 00:29:20,830 --> 00:29:22,270 I don't really have words. 700 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,500 AM: That's fine. 701 00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:25,976 Now can I ask you one more question and then we'll wrap it up? 702 00:29:25,976 --> 00:29:27,416 IL: Yeah. 703 00:29:35,061 --> 00:29:38,251 AM: I suppose my question is: 704 00:29:38,251 --> 00:29:45,741 if you couldn't use faith to conclude that your God exists, 705 00:29:45,771 --> 00:29:48,671 to know with 100% level of confidence... 706 00:29:48,671 --> 00:29:53,681 If a faith-based foundation wasn't an option for you, 707 00:29:53,711 --> 00:29:54,671 IL: Mmm-hmm. 708 00:29:55,591 --> 00:30:00,611 where do you think you would be in terms of your confidence that God existed. 709 00:30:02,031 --> 00:30:04,621 IL: It wouldn't be very high. 710 00:30:04,621 --> 00:30:07,261 Because like I said before, there's not really ... 711 00:30:07,261 --> 00:30:10,031 He's not literally standing in front of us, right now? 712 00:30:10,051 --> 00:30:12,071 IF that makes sense. I mean ... 713 00:30:13,611 --> 00:30:15,691 AM: So, you can't see Him, you can't hear ... 714 00:30:16,501 --> 00:30:19,561 IL: A lot of people kind of need concrete things in front of them 715 00:30:19,561 --> 00:30:22,681 in order to kind of have that 100% ... faith. 716 00:30:22,681 --> 00:30:24,066 Not faith-based, sorry. 717 00:30:24,066 --> 00:30:27,266 100% trust in something. 718 00:30:27,348 --> 00:30:31,368 Especially something that you base your whole life off of. 719 00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:35,014 I feel like if you don't have ... 720 00:30:35,024 --> 00:30:38,641 Faith is one of those things where you don't always feel like you're in control. 721 00:30:38,641 --> 00:30:43,421 And I feel like as humans we always like to have control. 722 00:30:43,431 --> 00:30:45,141 It's another thing where I kind of stray 723 00:30:45,151 --> 00:30:47,001 everyone kind of strays off of their path, 724 00:30:47,001 --> 00:30:48,791 but I always find my way back. 725 00:30:48,811 --> 00:30:49,581 AM: Okay. 726 00:30:51,491 --> 00:30:53,811 May I ask you one more question. 727 00:30:53,811 --> 00:30:56,411 And I promise this will be the last one unless you say: 728 00:30:56,441 --> 00:30:58,941 "Please, keep asking me questions." But this is my last. 729 00:31:03,481 --> 00:31:04,971 In these conversations 730 00:31:04,971 --> 00:31:06,641 that I've had with lots of people 731 00:31:06,891 --> 00:31:09,581 regardless of what God they believe in 732 00:31:09,581 --> 00:31:11,951 and regardless of how they were raised. 733 00:31:11,951 --> 00:31:15,081 They will often say that "I believe it because of faith." 734 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,401 I can't see the God. I can't hear the God. 735 00:31:17,401 --> 00:31:20,441 But I believe it and they are believing 736 00:31:20,441 --> 00:31:24,171 in completely different deities, wildly different. 737 00:31:24,226 --> 00:31:25,256 IL: Yeah. 738 00:31:25,256 --> 00:31:29,901 So, my last question to you is: 739 00:31:29,901 --> 00:31:31,610 [Sounds] 740 00:31:33,341 --> 00:31:37,411 Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, 741 00:31:37,411 --> 00:31:42,911 if anyone can use it for anything? 742 00:31:43,671 --> 00:31:45,661 IL: That's a good question. 743 00:31:46,366 --> 00:31:47,486 Oh. Wow! 744 00:31:51,018 --> 00:31:52,838 You got me there. 745 00:31:54,921 --> 00:31:57,290 It doesn't change what I believe. 746 00:31:57,305 --> 00:31:58,485 But ... 747 00:32:00,502 --> 00:32:02,322 You actually have a good point. 748 00:32:02,346 --> 00:32:05,086 A lot of religions are a lot of faith ... 749 00:32:05,113 --> 00:32:06,753 Um, is faith-based. 750 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:11,748 AM: I beg your pardon. 751 00:32:11,748 --> 00:32:15,458 Is there another way you can ask that? 752 00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:19,121 IL: Or is it a question or is it kind of like an open-ended ... 753 00:32:19,161 --> 00:32:21,781 AM: We can certainly end it on that point and if you want to... 754 00:32:21,781 --> 00:32:24,771 you seem like a thinker and if you want to think about it 755 00:32:24,841 --> 00:32:26,120 And we can ... 756 00:32:26,170 --> 00:32:27,731 And if I never hear from you again 757 00:32:27,731 --> 00:32:28,930 that's fine but if you want to ping me, 758 00:32:28,930 --> 00:32:29,991 I can give you my email address. 759 00:32:30,021 --> 00:32:31,391 IL: Yeah. 760 00:32:31,611 --> 00:32:34,191 AM: I can rephrase it, to leave it with you one more time. 761 00:32:34,191 --> 00:32:35,761 You can think about it I'll give you the card. 762 00:32:35,811 --> 00:32:37,370 So, I suppose the final question 763 00:32:37,370 --> 00:32:39,541 that you can either answer now 764 00:32:39,541 --> 00:32:44,381 or just think about it would be: 765 00:32:45,121 --> 00:32:52,291 If anyone can use faith to conclude that anything is true, 766 00:32:52,311 --> 00:32:55,100 why on earth would they want to use that method? 767 00:32:56,350 --> 00:32:57,350 IL: Mmm-hmm. 768 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,061 That's a good one. 769 00:33:00,091 --> 00:33:01,231 I'm going to ponder. 770 00:33:01,241 --> 00:33:03,171 I'm definitely a thinker. 771 00:33:10,711 --> 00:33:13,450 I have five minutes here. 772 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:15,990 So, just really quick. 773 00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:17,541 Did you notice the pacing of it? 774 00:33:17,541 --> 00:33:19,910 Did you notice that it was calm? I was asking questions. 775 00:33:19,910 --> 00:33:22,311 I wasn't telling her a damn thing. 776 00:33:22,311 --> 00:33:23,821 I was just giving her some of my observations. 777 00:33:23,821 --> 00:33:25,961 I was telling a story like the previous speaker had mentioned. 778 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,481 The importance of storytelling. 779 00:33:28,481 --> 00:33:32,461 Now this approach is freaking out professional believers. 780 00:33:32,461 --> 00:33:34,521 They're worried about it because I think they would 781 00:33:34,521 --> 00:33:38,760 rather see us argue like I did there with street preacher Phil. 782 00:33:40,750 --> 00:33:42,701 It's a lot easier to demonize an atheist 783 00:33:42,701 --> 00:33:45,780 when I'm behaving like that as opposed to 784 00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:47,741 when I'm having a cordial conversation 785 00:33:47,741 --> 00:33:51,721 with somebody like Joanna there. 786 00:33:51,721 --> 00:33:53,231 Okay. I've got one more video and we got like three minutes left. 787 00:33:53,231 --> 00:33:54,240 So, let�s wrap this up. 788 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,961 This one is one and a half minutes long 789 00:33:55,961 --> 00:33:57,920 and I'm showing you this video 790 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,951 because this one is so cool. 791 00:33:59,951 --> 00:34:03,881 It's this couple, we start talking how this fellow is getting pressure from one... 792 00:34:03,881 --> 00:34:06,721 He's a Christian. He's hundred percent sure yet he's getting 793 00:34:06,721 --> 00:34:08,299 pressure from one of his friends 794 00:34:08,299 --> 00:34:09,351 who's a Jehovah's Witness. 795 00:34:09,351 --> 00:34:12,761 And we had this wonderful conversation. 796 00:34:12,761 --> 00:34:14,351 His wife came up and listened mostly. 797 00:34:14,351 --> 00:34:18,779 And he's extolling the virtues of the conversation that he just had 798 00:34:18,779 --> 00:34:20,329 where I was using this approach. 799 00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:21,509 IL: But you got me thinking though, Anthony! 800 00:34:21,509 --> 00:34:22,768 I might have to email you. 801 00:34:22,849 --> 00:34:23,649 James ... 802 00:34:23,918 --> 00:34:25,569 AM: Nothing will make me happier. 803 00:34:25,589 --> 00:34:27,518 [continues giving his email] 804 00:34:28,724 --> 00:34:31,074 IL: Don't put it in the junk folder! 805 00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:32,331 AM: I'll be watching for it. 806 00:34:32,331 --> 00:34:33,311 AM: Yeah, hit me up. 807 00:34:33,331 --> 00:34:34,821 I'd really like to find out if there's 808 00:34:34,821 --> 00:34:37,520 a better way to conclude that this God exists 809 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,371 other than the reasons that you gave me. 810 00:34:39,371 --> 00:34:42,051 Do you find that the reasons 811 00:34:42,051 --> 00:34:43,260 that you've explained to me, 812 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:44,228 very great, very well... 813 00:34:44,253 --> 00:34:45,958 IL: That's a good question for my friend... 814 00:34:45,958 --> 00:34:47,688 That's a good question for him. 815 00:34:47,704 --> 00:34:48,400 AM: Why? 816 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,960 IL: 'Cause he's so strong in his beliefs! 817 00:34:50,966 --> 00:34:51,735 AM: Mmmm. 818 00:34:51,735 --> 00:34:52,572 IL: You know? 819 00:34:52,572 --> 00:34:53,492 My buddy, Gilbert. 820 00:34:53,492 --> 00:34:54,616 He's so strong in his beliefs, 821 00:34:54,616 --> 00:34:55,505 I'm going to ask him: 822 00:34:55,538 --> 00:34:58,518 "Hey, is there..." 823 00:34:58,534 --> 00:34:59,984 "How sure are you?" 824 00:35:00,062 --> 00:35:00,852 "How?" 825 00:35:00,856 --> 00:35:02,046 And I'm going to see what his... 826 00:35:02,063 --> 00:35:04,801 I think his answers are going to be similar to what I just gave you. 827 00:35:04,801 --> 00:35:05,801 But I'm going to ask him. 828 00:35:05,826 --> 00:35:07,756 AM: You know what I think would be really cool 829 00:35:07,861 --> 00:35:09,291 is if you were to learn about Street Epistemology, 830 00:35:09,291 --> 00:35:10,660 watch a couple of my videos 831 00:35:10,660 --> 00:35:11,430 and then engage with your friend. 832 00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:12,351 IL: You got videos on that website? 833 00:35:12,351 --> 00:35:13,021 AM: Yeah. 834 00:35:13,021 --> 00:35:15,751 If you email me I'll send you the link to my channel 835 00:35:15,751 --> 00:35:16,651 IL: Okay. 836 00:35:16,711 --> 00:35:18,281 AM: And you can check them out. 837 00:35:18,391 --> 00:35:19,201 IL: All right. 838 00:35:19,201 --> 00:35:21,091 AM: Thank you so much, really, really enjoyed it. 839 00:35:21,141 --> 00:35:23,401 Lovely talk, thank you. Bye. 840 00:35:23,541 --> 00:35:24,391 Got me thinking now! 841 00:35:24,391 --> 00:35:28,141 Good thing I don't have to work today! 842 00:35:28,141 --> 00:35:30,261 [Laughter] 843 00:35:30,263 --> 00:35:31,943 [Applause] 844 00:35:31,966 --> 00:35:32,916 James! 845 00:35:38,271 --> 00:35:40,101 If you'd like to learn how to do that, 846 00:35:40,101 --> 00:35:42,351 we get into a lot more detail. 847 00:35:42,351 --> 00:35:45,111 We had a workshop yesterday. 848 00:35:45,111 --> 00:35:46,591 The organizers here were kind enough 849 00:35:46,591 --> 00:35:49,471 to schedule another one for tomorrow at noon in another room. 850 00:35:49,471 --> 00:35:51,071 In that room over there. 851 00:35:51,071 --> 00:35:52,811 You'll find it. 852 00:35:52,811 --> 00:35:53,811 So it's at Noon tomorrow. 853 00:35:53,811 --> 00:35:56,351 We are tabling as well. And just to wrap this up... 854 00:35:56,351 --> 00:35:57,781 I've got two minutes. 855 00:35:57,781 --> 00:35:59,071 Let me just wrap it up. 856 00:35:59,071 --> 00:36:03,431 I do think that's this method is changing the way atheists interact with believers. 857 00:36:03,431 --> 00:36:07,431 And it's harder for believers to say: 858 00:36:07,431 --> 00:36:10,731 "Don't talk to that person because she's asking hard questions." 859 00:36:10,731 --> 00:36:14,911 If you have the truth it should stand up to the scrutiny of some simple questions. 860 00:36:14,941 --> 00:36:18,181 And did you notice in that video how James was picking up that 861 00:36:18,181 --> 00:36:20,321 I was asked him "how" questions? 862 00:36:20,321 --> 00:36:21,851 "How did he figure out that that's true?" 863 00:36:22,111 --> 00:36:24,291 So, he was getting it there at the end. 864 00:36:24,291 --> 00:36:25,971 And I really do think that 865 00:36:25,971 --> 00:36:30,841 when the history books are written on the success of atheism in America 866 00:36:30,851 --> 00:36:33,801 that there will be chapters on Street Epistemology. 867 00:36:33,801 --> 00:36:35,901 So, my question to you is: 868 00:36:35,901 --> 00:36:40,491 "Are you willing and able to help us make that happen?" 869 00:36:40,491 --> 00:36:42,911 Thank you very much. 870 00:36:43,491 --> 00:36:47,101 [Applause]