0:00:30.791,0:00:32.565 --Hello everyone. I'm Joanne Faryon. 0:00:33.026,0:00:35.171 Welcome to this Envision special 0:00:35.171,0:00:36.987 Life In Prison 0:00:36.987,0:00:42.080 About one in five of all inmates in California are serving life sentences. 0:00:42.080,0:00:48.470 Combined, they could potentially cost taxpayers in this state $140 billion 0:00:48.470,0:00:50.480 over the course of their sentences. 0:00:50.480,0:00:55.500 Lifers are getting more expensive because they're aging in prison and rarely paroled. 0:00:55.500,0:00:59.170 It's all adding up to record health care costs for inmates. 0:00:59.170,0:01:04.300 Tonight, we explore the cost of California's tough on crime legislation. 0:01:04.300,0:01:09.670 It's lead to so much overcrowding in state prisons the federal courts have stepped in. 0:01:09.670,0:01:12.400 You'll meet some lifers - men who were sent to prison 0:01:12.400,0:01:16.480 when Lyndon B. Johnson was president and they're still there. 0:01:16.480,0:01:21.650 This is not a report on whether they should be paroled - it is an examination 0:01:21.650,0:01:25.780 of how much it costs to lock people up and rarely let them out. 0:01:25.780,0:01:30.716 Especially when locking them up means you're responsible for their healthcare. 0:01:46.638,0:01:50.427 At first glance this could look like a nursing home. 0:01:50.612,0:01:54.830 The wheelchairs and walkers have a way of fooling you. 0:02:03.630,0:02:09.080 This is the California Medical Facility, one of California's 33 prisons. 0:02:09.080,0:02:12.470 CMF operates the largest prison hospital. 0:02:12.470,0:02:18.690 It is where many of the states old, sick and dying inmates will end up. 0:02:18.690,0:02:23.892 And these days, those old and sick inmates are growing in number. 0:02:41.907,0:02:47.330 California faces a problem that touches nearly every aspect of society - 0:02:47.330,0:02:53.120 from our economy to our safety to our health - one that forces us to take sides 0:02:53.120,0:02:55.550 between punishment and redemption. 0:02:55.550,0:02:58.290 We have too many men and women in our prisons. 0:02:58.290,0:03:03.410 The statistics say so and so did a federal court in 2002. 0:03:03.410,0:03:09.930 There are 170,000 inmates in prisons that were built for 100,000. 0:03:09.930,0:03:12.970 One in five serving life sentences. 0:03:13.216,0:03:15.300 TERRY CAMPBELL (Inmate): My name is Terry Campbell. 0:03:16.300,0:03:21.225 I'm in prison for murder, first-degree murder, and I've been in prison for 44 years. 0:03:21.502,0:03:27.890 GLENDA VIRGIL (Inmate): "My name is Glenda Virgil, and I'm serving a 15 to life sentence. 0:03:27.890,0:03:30.430 I've been here 23 years. 0:03:30.430,0:03:31.775 --And how old are you? 0:03:31.775,0:03:33.040 And I'm 63 years old. 0:03:33.532,0:03:38.422 RICHARD LAURENZANO (Inmate): Being 62 in prison is a struggle, it's a struggle. 0:03:38.422,0:03:39.108 --Why? 0:03:41.370,0:03:47.763 First of all the reflection of losing 27 years of your life but you get sicker. 0:03:48.040,0:03:51.900 --Richard Lauranzano represents the fastest growing segment 0:03:51.900,0:03:55.120 of the inmate population: men over 50. 0:03:55.120,0:03:57.500 He's also among the most expensive. 0:03:57.500,0:04:02.560 He's been sick and has been treated at hospitals outside the prison system. 0:04:02.560,0:04:07.880 LAURENZANO: I had cancer about four years ago, stage 4. 0:04:09.342,0:04:11.200 The prison system saved my life. 0:04:11.200,0:04:15.030 They sent me to outside hospitals they never hesitated. 0:04:15.368,0:04:18.138 --Glenda Virgil has had surgery. 0:04:18.508,0:04:21.370 VIRGIL: I've had major back surgery. 0:04:21.370,0:04:29.118 I was in the hospital with two guards 24 hours a day for 11 days. 0:04:29.118,0:04:31.833 I can't imagine what that cost. 0:04:31.833,0:04:37.222 But that just for the guards alone I would imagine that was over $200 0:04:37.237,0:04:44.785 you know because that 2 guards - because I'm a lifer - 2 guards for 24 hours everyday. 0:04:44.785,0:04:48.302 --Terry Campbell has had seven operations. 0:04:48.302,0:04:50.787 CAMPBELL: My back. 0:04:50.787,0:04:55.348 My shoulders because I broke bones in both my back and shoulders. 0:04:57.825,0:05:00.910 My hand, twice. 0:05:01.202,0:05:07.025 CLARK KELSO: We're dealing with a corrections population that is aging in prison. 0:05:07.025,0:05:11.488 --Clark Kelso is in charge of health care in California's prisons. 0:05:11.780,0:05:20.018 So we've seen explosion in Cardiovascular problems, and that a lot of Diabetes, 0:05:20.018,0:05:26.404 we have the results of Hepatitis C, there was ephydemic exposure in the 80's, 0:05:26.404,0:05:28.735 we began to see the results of that now. 0:05:28.735,0:05:32.458 We have a lot of inmates who have very serious liver disease 0:05:32.458,0:05:35.446 as the result of an abuse of drugs and alcohol. 0:05:35.446,0:05:43.265 But they're all at the age now where you have those issues plus other chronic conditions 0:05:43.265,0:05:46.725 that simply require a different type of care. 0:05:46.725,0:05:49.827 --A federal judge made Kelso a receiver 0:05:49.827,0:05:54.590 and put him in charge when a court ruled inmates did not have access to health care 0:05:54.590,0:06:00.230 and mental health services because California's prisons were so over crowded. 0:06:00.230,0:06:04.910 The court ruled lack of health care was cruel and unusual punishment 0:06:04.910,0:06:08.050 and violated inmates' constitutional rights. 0:06:08.050,0:06:12.740 A panel of federal judges has since ordered California to come up with a plan 0:06:12.740,0:06:17.560 to reduce its prison population by 40,000 inmates. 0:06:17.560,0:06:23.580 Both decisions forced the state to confront its overcrowding problem and challenged the public 0:06:23.580,0:06:27.690 to contemplate the health care debate in a whole new way. 0:06:27.690,0:06:33.200 If we as a country can't decide whether health care is a right for all free citizens - 0:06:33.200,0:06:37.482 why is it so easily determined as a right for convicted criminals? 0:06:37.852,0:06:41.500 It's a question Clark Kelso has been asked many times. 0:06:41.500,0:06:46.420 KELSO: The technical legal answer is there's a huge difference 0:06:46.420,0:06:52.140 between government's responsibility to you a citizen, a free citizen, 0:06:52.140,0:06:57.370 and government's responsibility to someone that government is incarcerating. 0:06:57.370,0:07:03.340 Once you have incarcerated someone, government has a constitutional obligation 0:07:03.340,0:07:10.270 under the 8th amendment to provide certain levels of acre 0:07:10.270,0:07:12.250 and that what the state has to do. 0:07:12.419,0:07:15.190 --Since the receivership assumed control of health care 0:07:15.190,0:07:20.460 in prisons three years ago spending on medical treatment for inmates has almost doubled - 0:07:20.460,0:07:26.710 from just over one billion dollars a year to nearly two billion dollars. 0:07:26.710,0:07:30.580 And that budget will increase if the state is to continue providing health care 0:07:30.580,0:07:33.630 to its growing geriatric population. 0:07:33.630,0:07:36.540 One independent report projects the number of men 0:07:36.540,0:07:43.070 in California prisons over age 60 will triple by 2018. 0:07:43.070,0:07:49.330 KELSO: The state of California and the people of California have made consistent judgments 0:07:49.330,0:07:55.820 that certain types of crimes or certain patterns of criminal conduct need to be punished 0:07:55.820,0:08:06.500 with life in prison and that's a judgment that has to be respected from my perspective is 0:08:06.500,0:08:12.430 that needs to realize those decisions come with a cost 0:08:12.430,0:08:18.380 that you can't have a prison population 16 or 20 per cent of which in a maybe a decade 0:08:18.380,0:08:24.270 or to are going to be 55 and older, you can't do that unless you're willing 0:08:24.270,0:08:30.230 to devote a very substantial portion of the general fund to their health care 0:08:30.230,0:08:33.120 because those aging prisoners are going 0:08:33.120,0:08:36.620 to have health care needs that are very expensive to meet. 0:08:36.805,0:08:41.050 --There are about 35,000 lifers in California prisons. 0:08:41.050,0:08:46.200 Using government statistics, KPBS calculated how much money the state pays 0:08:46.200,0:08:49.270 to imprison inmates for a life sentence. 0:08:49.270,0:08:57.090 If Inmate X is incarcerated at age 37, he costs taxpayers about $49,000 a year. 0:08:57.090,0:09:01.250 But as he ages, his health care expenses will increase. 0:09:01.250,0:09:07.140 At age 55, he could cost the state $150,000 a year. 0:09:07.140,0:09:11.430 If he lives until he's 77, he will cost California taxpayers 0:09:11.430,0:09:15.775 as much $4 million to keep him in prison for life. 0:09:25.375,0:09:33.140 FARYON: So, when you were first convicted and sent to prison did you expect to still be 0:09:33.140,0:09:35.330 in prison when you were sixty-five? 0:09:35.330,0:09:37.590 CAMPBELL: No, not at all. 0:09:37.590,0:09:44.800 No, I believed the hype that if you change while you're in prison and prove to us 0:09:44.800,0:09:50.880 that you're capable of functioning in society by doing the programs that we provide, 0:09:50.880,0:09:56.090 showing us that you've rehabilitated and the CDC staff supports 0:09:56.090,0:09:59.230 that effort, then you will be paroled. 0:09:59.553,0:10:01.990 --Lifers rarely get parole. 0:10:01.990,0:10:07.530 In 2008, 7,303 lifers were up for parole. 0:10:07.531,0:10:10.099 The board granted 294. 0:10:10.099,0:10:15.106 But the governor has the right to reverse those decisions or send them back for review. 0:10:15.106,0:10:19.975 In 2008 Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied 81 lifers parole 0:10:19.975,0:10:23.510 and sent more than 30 cases back for review. 0:10:23.510,0:10:26.431 Fewer than 60 inmates were released. 0:10:26.431,0:10:32.505 The year before even fewer were paroled and in 2006, fewer still. 0:10:40.560,0:10:44.420 --To understand why Californians developed this tough on crime mantra, 0:10:44.420,0:10:47.540 you have to go back to the days of Charles Manson. 0:10:47.540,0:10:50.520 At the time homicide rates were on the rise - 0:10:50.520,0:10:54.940 nearly doubling from the mid sixties to the late 70's. 0:10:57.780,0:11:00.330 HARRIET SALARNO: Because the high crime, 0:11:00.330,0:11:06.270 murder was on the rampage and people were getting furious. 0:11:06.270,0:11:11.870 FARYON: Harriet Salarno was raising a family in San Francisco at the time. 0:11:11.870,0:11:14.920 She and her husband owned an electronics store. 0:11:14.920,0:11:19.770 They kept a gun because stores like theirs were often the target of robberies. 0:11:19.770,0:11:25.280 It was the gun her daughter's killer would use in 1979. 0:11:25.280,0:11:29.820 SALARNO: And he shot her and murdered her execution style. 0:11:29.820,0:11:40.050 And he went up to his dorm didn't call any help or anything watched her try to call and she died 0:11:40.050,0:11:45.150 and finally another student found her and it was too late. 0:11:45.150,0:11:48.740 FARYON: When Salarno learned her daughter's killer was up for parole 0:11:48.740,0:11:52.580 after just serving 10 years, she began a life-long campaign 0:11:52.580,0:11:56.290 for tougher sentencing laws and stricter parole policies. 0:11:56.290,0:12:02.650 Her victims rights group raises enough money to employ a full time lobbyist in Sacramento. 0:12:02.650,0:12:07.280 SALARNO: Public safety is in our constitution 0:12:07.280,0:12:12.370 and it's the priority and it must be served first. 0:12:12.370,0:12:16.280 We will back right there lobbying as heavy 0:12:16.280,0:12:27.140 as we can every morning we will have a new case we will be able to discuss with a legislator 0:12:27.140,0:12:34.460 because somebody was murdered it will be on the morning news as it is every morning. 0:12:34.460,0:12:37.910 And that's their obligation. 0:12:37.910,0:12:41.840 Their obligation as legislators is to do this. 0:12:41.840,0:12:47.160 FARYON: Dozens of changes to sentencing laws in the last few decades have all contributed 0:12:47.160,0:12:50.490 to California's highest rate of lifers in prison. 0:12:50.490,0:12:55.240 Two of the most significant, are determinate sentencing in 1977, 0:12:55.240,0:13:00.530 which imposed minimum sentences, and three strikes in 1994, 0:13:00.530,0:13:04.020 which allowed repeat offenders to be sentenced to life. 0:13:04.020,0:13:06.200 LINDA: My sentence is 15 to life. 0:13:06.200,0:13:07.820 FARYON: And you've been here how long? 0:13:07.820,0:13:09.410 LINDA: I'm in my 24th year. 0:13:09.410,0:13:12.740 FARYON: And Glenda? 0:13:12.740,0:13:16.940 VIRGIL: Fifteen to life, plus two for a gun allocation. 0:13:16.940,0:13:21.280 And I've been here for 23 years. 0:13:21.280,0:13:22.180 FARYON: And Marylinn? 0:13:22.180,0:13:27.340 MARYLINN: Mine is 15 to life for second-degree murder and I've been down 25. 0:13:27.340,0:13:32.950 FARYON: At the California Institution for Women in Corona California, a group of inmates, 0:13:32.950,0:13:38.490 all convicted murderers, all women, talk about what its like to grow old in prison. 0:13:38.490,0:13:42.340 LINDA: The change is for me my health. 0:13:42.340,0:13:51.740 My health has declined and the getting around that I don't have anymore. 0:13:51.740,0:13:55.070 I didn't think that I'd ever grow old. 0:13:55.070,0:14:01.720 That my hips wouldn't work, that I couldn't get down or get up anymore, or my legs. 0:14:01.720,0:14:06.140 MARYLINN: And never in my life did I think I'd be sitting in prison and going, 0:14:06.140,0:14:09.520 wow I'm 70 years old and I don't even have a retirement plan. 0:14:09.520,0:14:12.140 I don't have to go to work everyday because that's the program. 0:14:12.140,0:14:14.400 That's what you have to do. 0:14:14.400,0:14:18.540 Or that I would have lost my whole family behind these circumstances. 0:14:18.540,0:14:21.740 That I would no longer have a family to reach out to. 0:14:21.740,0:14:25.290 FARYON: The women are part of a group called the Golden Girls, 0:14:25.290,0:14:29.040 inmates over 55 who are granted special privileges 0:14:29.040,0:14:31.430 like a double mattress on their metal cots. 0:14:31.430,0:14:33.980 And they're first in line during meals. 0:14:33.980,0:14:35.680 But this is still prison. 0:14:35.680,0:14:37.290 And there are rules. 0:14:37.290,0:14:41.110 Like getting down on the floor when an alarm sounds. 0:14:41.110,0:14:42.600 This happened while we were there. 0:14:42.600,0:14:48.770 59-year-old Linda can barely make it down or back up again. 0:14:48.770,0:14:53.730 DR. JOSEPH BICK: Prisons weren't built to make it easy 0:14:53.730,0:14:56.770 for mobility-impaired people to get around. 0:14:56.770,0:15:03.260 Prisons were built to safely incarcerate individuals whoa re sent away 0:15:03.260,0:15:05.630 and keep them from escaping. 0:15:05.630,0:15:10.770 So we're trying to deal with things how do you accommodate activities of daily living 0:15:10.770,0:15:14.150 of somebody who's in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. 0:15:14.150,0:15:18.800 Simple things like getting their clothes on, going to the bathroom, 0:15:18.800,0:15:22.760 ambulating down the hallway to the dining halls. 0:15:22.760,0:15:25.470 Having enough time to eat. 0:15:25.470,0:15:28.810 Having more than 15 minutes to consume a meal. 0:15:28.810,0:15:33.500 FARYON: Dr. Joseph Bick has been working as a prison doctor for 20 years. 0:15:33.500,0:15:38.300 He tends to patients at CMF's hospital and the prison hospice, 0:15:38.300,0:15:41.500 where he's held the hand of many dying inmates. 0:15:41.500,0:15:45.670 DR. JOSEPH BICK: I'm not privy to inmates' commitment offenses as a clinician, 0:15:45.670,0:15:48.530 it's something I'm not particularly interested in knowing. 0:15:48.530,0:15:52.100 In fact I endeavour to not know because I think my job is 0:15:52.100,0:15:57.070 to provide the best quality of health care I can. 0:15:57.070,0:16:01.750 But I'm human too and I don't want to run the risk of being influenced 0:16:01.750,0:16:09.710 by knowledge of someone's commitment offense. 0:16:09.710,0:16:18.500 FARYON: We met two inmates in the prison hospice on the day of our visit. 0:16:18.500,0:16:22.100 Angelo Chavez has end-stage liver disease. 0:16:22.100,0:16:28.330 ANGELO CHAVEZ: I was hoping they would give me a compassionate release 0:16:28.330,0:16:34.410 and that's what I'm waiting for, to see if I can go home to my family. 0:16:34.410,0:16:38.490 FARYON: Chavez is a three striker and serving a life sentence. 0:16:38.490,0:16:42.660 His convictions include drug possession, robbery and manslaughter. 0:16:42.660,0:16:48.500 CHAVEZ: I would love to go home and die out there, than to die here. 0:16:48.500,0:16:50.880 FARYON: We also met Brian Long. 0:16:50.880,0:16:54.610 He has cancer and is expected to live another three months. 0:16:54.610,0:17:00.140 In 1993, Long was convicted of having sex with a minor and served six years. 0:17:00.140,0:17:06.240 In 2003 he was sentenced to 11 years for a second sexual offense against a child. 0:17:06.240,0:17:10.510 In California, inmates can be released for compassionate reasons 0:17:10.510,0:17:13.250 if they have less than six months to live. 0:17:13.250,0:17:17.620 Last year there were 57 requests. 0:17:17.620,0:17:19.590 Three were granted by the courts. 0:17:19.590,0:17:23.060 DR. JOSEPH BICK: People have very strong opinions on all sides 0:17:23.060,0:17:29.380 of this discussion you certainly have people who have been victims or their family members 0:17:29.380,0:17:35.590 of some very heinous crimes from some of the people who live in this facility. 0:17:35.590,0:17:41.080 And they strongly feel that it doesn't matter how old somebody gets or how sick they get 0:17:41.080,0:17:46.040 or what they're likelihood of reoffending is they should spend the rest 0:17:46.040,0:17:47.230 of their life in prison. 0:17:47.230,0:17:50.870 FARYON: But Dr. Bick says we can't deny them health care. 0:17:50.870,0:17:55.450 Not only is it the law, it is also a matter of public health. 0:17:55.450,0:18:00.230 DR. JOSEPH BICK: With so many people incarcerated we choose as a society 0:18:00.230,0:18:05.060 to incarcerate people that come to us with such an incredible burden of disease, 0:18:05.060,0:18:09.340 HIV and hepatitis and tuberculosis and mental illness 0:18:09.340,0:18:14.650 and substance abuse whoa re someday going to go home, to me the tragedy is 0:18:14.650,0:18:18.270 to somehow ignore them an put them off there and assume 0:18:18.270,0:18:21.960 because they're incarcerated they don't matter or they're not going 0:18:21.960,0:18:26.770 to somehow impact upon the general health at time of release. 0:18:26.770,0:18:33.090 FARYON: And how do you see your life playing out then here as you age? 0:18:41.890,0:18:45.340 CAMPBELL: I'll just grow old and eventually I'll die. 0:18:45.340,0:18:48.770 I don't see it as - you know I'm well adapted. 0:18:48.770,0:18:50.770 Institutionalized, if you will. 0:18:50.770,0:18:57.250 So I don't see a problem just existing. 0:18:57.250,0:19:00.290 Eventually I wont be able to function anymore and eventually I'll end 0:19:00.290,0:19:03.090 up in a hospital and eventually I'll die. 0:19:05.220,0:19:09.590 But in the meantime it's going to cost the state an awful lot of money to take care of me. 0:19:09.590,0:19:14.820 FARYON: Terry Campbell was convicted in 1966 of murder during an armed robbery. 0:19:14.820,0:19:21.410 He has two other convictions from 1968 and 1973, both while incarcerated. 0:19:21.410,0:19:25.330 He told KPBS he was mixed up with prison gang violence. 0:19:25.330,0:19:32.440 Since that time Campbell has earned two college degrees FARYON: 0:19:32.440,0:19:37.170 What's your biggest fear about growing old in prison? 0:19:43.800,0:19:51.920 CAMPBELL: I don't know if it's a fear, but my biggest concern about growing old in prison is 0:19:51.920,0:19:56.950 that I went through all the trouble - on a personal level I went through all the trouble 0:19:56.950,0:20:12.090 to change, to become a different person and now I don't know 0:20:12.090,0:20:16.540 for what reason other than personal satisfaction. 0:20:16.540,0:20:18.640 I can't give anything back. 0:20:18.640,0:20:21.350 VIRGIL: And being alone. 0:20:22.480,0:20:33.670 Dying alone where there isn't anyone who cares about you or knows you. 0:20:33.670,0:20:39.610 FARYON: Glenda Virgil was convicted of second-degree murder in 1987 for shooting 0:20:39.610,0:20:41.870 and killing the man with whom she had been involved. 0:20:41.870,0:20:45.130 She told KPBS she had been a battered woman. 0:20:45.130,0:20:47.060 LAURANZANO: They didn't give you life without, 0:20:47.060,0:20:51.410 they didn't give you the death penalty they gave you 25 to life or 15 to life 0:20:51.410,0:20:54.100 that means you get out at some point. 0:20:54.100,0:20:58.420 And if you do everything they say you should get out and be a functioning member of society. 0:20:58.420,0:21:02.240 FARYON: Richard Lauranzano was convicted of seven counts 0:21:02.240,0:21:10.650 of sexual assault with children under 14 in 1984. 0:21:10.650,0:21:15.470 While in prison he was also convicted of murder in connection. 0:21:15.470,0:21:26.020 He is serving a 50-year sentence but is eligible for parole in 2013. 0:21:26.020,0:21:33.820 Lauranzano's cancer is in remission, but he has heart trouble 0:21:33.820,0:21:39.520 and is consulting with experts about surgery. 0:21:39.520,0:21:43.990 GOVERNOR: 30 years ago 10% of the general fund went 0:21:43.990,0:21:48.730 to higher education and only 3% went to prisons. 0:21:48.730,0:21:56.710 Today almost 11% goes to prisons and only 7.5% goes to higher education. 0:21:56.710,0:22:06.000 Spending 45% more on prisons than universities is no way to proceed into the future. 0:22:06.000,0:22:14.100 FARYON: But it will be a difficult ship to turn given California's 30-year history of support 0:22:14.100,0:22:22.950 for longer prison sentences and this administration's record of denying parole. 0:22:22.950,0:22:31.370 Plans to build a new billion-dollar prison to house old inmates who need chronic care 0:22:31.370,0:22:35.140 and inmates who need mental health services are now underway. 0:22:35.140,0:22:37.470 There isn't room for them anywhere else. 0:22:37.470,0:22:41.920 Clark Kelso is also looking at ways to get his outside hospital costs down. 0:22:41.920,0:22:49.360 Last year the state spent 500 million dollars on those visits - about 1,000 very sick 0:22:49.360,0:22:52.730 and dying inmates accounted for most of that cost. 0:22:52.730,0:22:55.700 KELSO: There are solutions I think the legislature 0:22:55.700,0:23:00.790 and the people need o become more comfortable with such as medical parole or other types 0:23:00.790,0:23:05.140 of programs that will get these unhealthy inmates these again inmates 0:23:05.140,0:23:10.810 who don't pose very much threat to the public in terms of recidivism very good numbers there, 0:23:10.810,0:23:16.130 we have to come to a better public understanding in California 0:23:16.130,0:23:19.440 with how to take care of those inmates. 0:23:19.440,0:23:26.000 FARYON: Kelso has been in talks with officials, including the governor's office, 0:23:26.000,0:23:30.160 about releasing some inmates to privately run secure nursing homes. 0:23:30.160,0:23:34.330 According to government statistics, people over 55 have less 0:23:34.330,0:23:38.940 than a four per cent recidivism rate which means they are the least likely of all inmates 0:23:38.940,0:23:41.660 to commit another offense and return to prison. 0:23:41.660,0:23:48.690 And once released from state run prisons, it's likely they'd be eligible 0:23:48.690,0:23:51.140 for federal health care subsidies. 0:23:51.140,0:23:53.900 KELSO: One way or another health care needs 0:23:53.900,0:23:57.360 of these people are going to be paid for by somebody. 0:23:57.360,0:24:01.670 FARYON: Should a life sentence mean a life sentence in California? 0:24:01.670,0:24:04.320 If they're not rehabilitated absolutely. 0:24:04.320,0:24:08.970 HARRIET: What are you going to do with them if you let them out? 0:24:08.970,0:24:11.870 Where are they going to go? 0:24:11.870,0:24:14.380 What are you going to do with them? 0:24:14.380,0:24:18.080 You're going to say they're not going to commit a crime if they can't get a job 0:24:18.080,0:24:27.380 and you're talking maybe 65 they need to make some income and they cant get a job 0:24:27.380,0:24:32.860 and they have no place to live what are they going to do they're going 0:24:32.860,0:24:36.200 to rob somebody's home, where are they going to get the money. 0:24:36.200,0:24:42.610 You just don't open the door here's your $200 go get the bus. 0:24:42.610,0:24:45.340 FARYON: Do you ever think you will get out? 0:24:45.340,0:24:47.370 CAMPBELL: No. 0:24:47.370,0:24:47.970 No I don't. 0:24:47.970,0:24:59.080 That saying about it doesn't really matter where you are, but it always matters who you are? 0:24:59.080,0:25:00.000 You know, that applies. 0:25:00.000,0:25:11.460 That applies to a lot of us that are in prison because there are a lot of lifers who came 0:25:11.460,0:25:20.660 to prison, who didn't get into trouble like I got into trouble 0:25:20.660,0:25:28.180 when I came to prison, who are still here. 0:25:28.180,0:25:37.040 And they're sitting around wondering, well what do I have to do? 0:25:37.040,0:25:42.470 What do I have to do to get out of prison? 0:25:42.470,0:25:48.930 How do I prove myself and who do I prove myself to? 0:25:48.930,0:25:53.270 And there's no answer. 0:25:53.270,0:26:16.180 FARYON: You can learn more about this issue by going to our website, kpbs.org/prisons. 0:26:16.180,0:26:25.280 And you can also leave a comment. 0:26:25.280,0:26:30.330 We'd love to hear from you. 0:26:30.330,0:26:45.120 For KPBS, I'm Joanne Faryon, thanks for watching.