0:00:30.079,0:00:32.823 Hello everyone. I'm Joanne Faryon. 0:00:32.823,0:00:35.131 Welcome to this Envision special 0:00:35.131,0:00:37.012 Life In Prison 0:00:37.012,0:00:41.725 About one in five of all inmates in California are serving life sentences. 0:00:41.725,0:00:48.450 Combined, they could potentially cost taxpayers in this state $140 billion 0:00:48.465,0:00:50.047 over the course of their sentences. 0:00:50.047,0:00:55.050 Lifers are getting more expensive because they're aging in prison and rarely paroled. 0:00:55.050,0:00:59.006 It's all adding up to record health care costs for inmates. 0:00:59.017,0:01:04.029 Tonight, we explore the cost of California's tough on crime legislation. 0:01:04.029,0:01:09.056 It's lead to so much overcrowding in state prisons the federal courts have stepped in. 0:01:09.067,0:01:12.040 You'll meet some lifers - men who were sent to prison 0:01:12.040,0:01:16.048 when Lyndon B. Johnson was president and they're still there. 0:01:16.063,0:01:21.188 This is not a report on whether they should be paroled - it is an examination 0:01:21.188,0:01:25.416 of how much it costs to lock people up and rarely let them out. 0:01:25.416,0:01:30.625 Especially when locking them up means you're responsible for their healthcare. 0:01:46.547,0:01:50.042 At first glance this could look like a nursing home. 0:01:50.061,0:01:54.917 The wheelchairs and walkers have a way of fooling you. 0:02:03.062,0:02:09.008 This is the California Medical Facility, one of California's 33 prisons. 0:02:09.008,0:02:12.323 CMF operates the largest prison hospital. 0:02:12.323,0:02:18.068 It's where many of the states old, sick and dying inmates will end up. 0:02:18.068,0:02:23.227 And these days, those old and sick inmates are growing in number. 0:02:41.090,0:02:47.033 California faces a problem that touches nearly every aspect of society - 0:02:47.033,0:02:53.012 from our economy to our safety to our health - one that forces us to take sides 0:02:53.012,0:02:55.055 between punishment and redemption. 0:02:55.055,0:02:58.028 We've too many men and women in our prisons. 0:02:58.028,0:03:03.040 The statistics say so, and so did a federal court in 2002. 0:03:03.040,0:03:09.401 There are 170,000 inmates in prisons that were built for 100,000. 0:03:09.401,0:03:12.096 One in five serving life sentences. 0:03:13.021,0:03:15.030 TERRY CAMPBELL (Inmate): My name is Terry Campbell. 0:03:16.030,0:03:21.453 I'm in prison for murder, first-degree murder, and I've been in prison for 44 years. 0:03:21.453,0:03:27.442 GLENDA VIRGIL (Inmate): "My name is Glenda Virgil, and I'm serving a 15-to-life sentence. 0:03:27.442,0:03:30.043 I've been here 23 years. 0:03:30.043,0:03:31.077 --And how old are you? 0:03:31.077,0:03:33.326 And I'm 63 years old. 0:03:33.326,0:03:38.042 RICHARD LAURENZANO (Inmate): Being 62 in prison is a struggle, it's a struggle. 0:03:38.042,0:03:39.010 --Why? 0:03:39.067,0:03:47.076 Well, first of all the reflection of losing 27 years of your life but you get sicker. 0:03:48.003,0:03:51.505 --Richard Lauranzano represents the fastest growing segment 0:03:51.505,0:03:55.012 of the inmate population: men over 50. 0:03:55.012,0:03:57.050 He's also among the most expensive. 0:03:57.050,0:04:02.641 He's been sick and has been treated at hospitals outside the prison system. 0:04:02.641,0:04:07.087 LAURENZANO: I had cancer about four years ago, stage 4. 0:04:09.034,0:04:11.019 The prison system saved my life. 0:04:11.019,0:04:15.003 They sent me out to outside hospitals they never hesitated. 0:04:15.036,0:04:18.013 --Glenda Virgil has had surgery. 0:04:18.050,0:04:21.360 VIRGIL: I've had major back surgery. 0:04:21.360,0:04:28.673 I was in the hospital with two guards 24 hours a day for 11 days. 0:04:28.673,0:04:31.083 Now, I can't imagine what that cost. 0:04:31.083,0:04:37.022 But that just for the guards alone I would imagine that was over $200,000. 0:04:37.023,0:04:44.586 you know because that 2 guards - because I'm a lifer - 2 guards for 24 hours everyday. 0:04:44.586,0:04:48.030 --Terry Campbell has had seven operations. 0:04:48.030,0:04:50.078 CAMPBELL: My back. 0:04:50.078,0:04:55.034 My shoulders because I broke bones in both my back and shoulders. 0:04:57.082,0:05:00.091 My hand, twice. 0:05:01.020,0:05:07.002 CLARK KELSO: We're dealing with a corrections population that is aging in prison. 0:05:07.002,0:05:11.048 --Clark Kelso is in charge of health care in California's prisons. 0:05:11.077,0:05:20.001 So we've seen explosion in Cardiovascular problems, and we've got a lot of Diabetes, 0:05:20.001,0:05:26.040 we have the results of Hepatitis C, there was sort of an epidemic of it, an exposure in the 80's, 0:05:26.040,0:05:28.073 we began to see the results of that now. 0:05:28.073,0:05:32.045 We have a lot of inmates who have very serious liver disease 0:05:32.045,0:05:35.044 as the result of an abuse of drugs and alcohol. 0:05:35.044,0:05:43.026 But they're all at the age now where you have those issues plus other chronic conditions 0:05:43.026,0:05:46.318 that simply require a different type of care. 0:05:46.318,0:05:49.082 --A federal judge made Kelso a receiver 0:05:49.082,0:05:54.058 and put him in charge when a court ruled inmates did not have access to health care 0:05:54.058,0:06:00.023 and mental health services because California's prisons were so over crowded. 0:06:00.023,0:06:04.091 The court ruled lack of health care was cruel and unusual punishment 0:06:04.091,0:06:08.005 and violated inmates' constitutional rights. 0:06:08.005,0:06:12.566 A panel of federal judges has since ordered California to come up with a plan 0:06:12.566,0:06:17.056 to reduce its prison population by 40,000 inmates. 0:06:17.056,0:06:23.057 Both decisions forced the state to confront its overcrowding problem and challenged the public 0:06:23.057,0:06:27.068 to contemplate the health care debate in a whole new way. 0:06:27.068,0:06:33.019 If we as a country can't decide whether health care is a right for all free citizens - 0:06:33.019,0:06:37.479 why is it so easily determined as a right for convicted criminals? 0:06:37.485,0:06:41.465 It's a question Clark Kelso has been asked many times. 0:06:41.465,0:06:46.042 KELSO: The technical legal answer is there's a huge difference 0:06:46.042,0:06:52.013 between government's responsibility to you a citizen, a free citizen, 0:06:52.013,0:06:57.037 and government's responsibility to someone that government is incarcerating. 0:06:57.037,0:07:03.033 Once you have incarcerated someone, government has a constitutional obligation 0:07:03.033,0:07:10.026 under the Eighth Amendment to provide certain levels of care 0:07:10.026,0:07:12.471 and that what the state has to do. 0:07:12.471,0:07:15.018 --Since the receivership assumed control of health care 0:07:15.018,0:07:20.045 in prisons three years ago, spending on medical treatment for inmates has almost doubled - 0:07:20.045,0:07:26.070 from just over one billion dollars a year to nearly two billion dollars. 0:07:26.070,0:07:30.411 And that budget will increase if the state is to continue providing health care 0:07:30.411,0:07:33.062 to its growing geriatric population. 0:07:33.062,0:07:36.054 One independent report projects the number of men 0:07:36.054,0:07:43.006 in California prisons over age 60 will triple by 2018. 0:07:43.006,0:07:49.032 KELSO: The state of California and the people of California have made consistent judgments 0:07:49.032,0:07:55.543 that certain types of crimes or certain patterns of criminal conduct need to be punished 0:07:55.543,0:08:06.050 with life in prison and that's a judgment that has to be respected. I think from my perspective 0:08:06.050,0:08:12.043 what the State needs to realize is, that those decisions come with a cost. 0:08:12.043,0:08:18.037 That you can't have a prison population 16, 20 per cent of which in a maybe a decade or two 0:08:18.037,0:08:24.026 are going to be 55 and older. You can't do that unless you're willing 0:08:24.026,0:08:30.023 to devote a very substantial portion of the general fund to their health care 0:08:30.023,0:08:33.012 because those aging prisoners are going 0:08:33.012,0:08:36.400 to have health care needs that are very expensive to meet. 0:08:36.400,0:08:41.004 --There are about 35,000 lifers in California prisons. 0:08:41.004,0:08:46.020 Using government statistics, KPBS calculated how much money the state pays 0:08:46.020,0:08:49.026 to imprison inmates for a life sentence. 0:08:49.026,0:08:57.009 If Inmate X is incarcerated at age 37, he costs taxpayers about $49,000 a year. 0:08:57.009,0:09:01.025 But as he ages, his health care expenses will increase. 0:09:01.025,0:09:07.013 At age 55, he could cost the state $150,000 a year. 0:09:07.013,0:09:11.042 If he lives until he's 77, he will cost California taxpayers 0:09:11.042,0:09:15.077 as much $4 million to keep him in prison for life. 0:09:25.037,0:09:33.013 FARYON: So, when you were first convicted and sent to prison, did you expect to still be 0:09:33.013,0:09:35.033 in prison when you were sixty-five? 0:09:35.033,0:09:37.059 CAMPBELL: No, not at all. 0:09:37.059,0:09:44.356 No, I believed the hype that if you change while you're in prison and prove to us 0:09:44.356,0:09:50.087 that you're capable of functioning in society by doing the programs that we provide, 0:09:50.087,0:09:54.886 showing us that you've rehabilitated and the staff supports 0:09:54.886,0:09:59.023 that effort then, CDC staff supports that effort, then you will be paroled. 0:09:59.055,0:10:01.099 --Lifers rarely get parole. 0:10:01.099,0:10:07.052 In 2008, 7,303 lifers were up for parole. 0:10:07.053,0:10:10.009 The board granted 294. 0:10:10.009,0:10:15.010 But the Governor has the right to reverse those decisions or send them back for review. 0:10:15.010,0:10:19.097 In 2008, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied 81 lifers parole 0:10:19.097,0:10:23.050 and sent more than 30 cases back for review. 0:10:23.050,0:10:26.043 Fewer than 60 inmates were released. 0:10:26.043,0:10:32.050 The year before even fewer were paroled and in 2006, fewer still. 0:10:40.686,0:10:44.041 --To understand why Californians developed this 'tough on crime' mantra, 0:10:44.041,0:10:47.053 you have to go back to the days of Charles Manson. 0:10:47.053,0:10:50.051 At the time, homicide rates were on the rise - 0:10:50.051,0:10:54.094 nearly doubling from the mid-sixties to the late 70's. 0:10:57.077,0:11:00.033 HARRIET SALARNO: Because the high crime, 0:11:00.033,0:11:07.380 murder was on the rampage and the people were getting furious. 0:11:07.380,0:11:11.349 FARYON: Harriet Salarno was raising a family in San Francisco at the time. 0:11:11.349,0:11:14.614 She and her husband owned an electronics store. 0:11:14.614,0:11:19.076 They kept a gun because stores like theirs were often the target of robberies. 0:11:19.076,0:11:25.027 It was the gun her daughter's killer would use in 1979. 0:11:25.027,0:11:29.082 SALARNO: And he shot her and murdered her execution style. 0:11:29.082,0:11:40.004 And he went up to his dorm didn't call any help or anything watched her try to call and she died 0:11:40.004,0:11:45.014 and finally another student found her and it was too late. 0:11:45.014,0:11:48.074 FARYON: When Salarno learned her daughter's killer was up for parole 0:11:48.074,0:11:52.058 after just serving 10 years, she began a life-long campaign 0:11:52.058,0:11:56.028 for tougher sentencing laws and stricter parole policies. 0:11:56.028,0:12:02.064 Her victims rights group raises enough money to employ a full-time lobbyist in Sacramento. 0:12:02.064,0:12:07.027 SALARNO: Public safety is in our constitution 0:12:07.027,0:12:12.037 and it's the priority and it must be served first. 0:12:12.037,0:12:16.027 So, we will back right there lobbying as heavy 0:12:16.027,0:12:27.013 as we can every morning we'll have a new case that we will be able to discuss with whatever legislator we meet that day 0:12:27.013,0:12:34.046 because somebody was murdered. It will be on the morning news as it is every morning. 0:12:34.046,0:12:37.090 And we'll be back there. And that's their obligation. 0:12:37.090,0:12:41.084 Their obligation as legislators is to do this. 0:12:41.084,0:12:47.015 FARYON: Dozens of changes to sentencing laws in the last few decades have all contributed 0:12:47.015,0:12:50.049 to California's highest rate of lifers in prison. 0:12:50.049,0:12:55.024 Two of the most significant, are determinate sentencing in 1977, 0:12:55.024,0:13:00.052 which imposed minimum sentences, and three strikes in 1994, 0:13:00.052,0:13:04.001 which allowed repeat offenders to be sentenced to life. 0:13:04.001,0:13:06.020 LINDA: My sentence is 15 to life. 0:13:06.020,0:13:07.082 FARYON: And you've been here how long? 0:13:07.082,0:13:09.040 LINDA: I'm in my 24th year. 0:13:09.040,0:13:12.074 FARYON: And Glenda? 0:13:12.074,0:13:16.094 VIRGIL: Fifteen to life, plus two for a gun allocation. 0:13:16.094,0:13:21.027 And I've been here for 23 years. 0:13:21.027,0:13:22.017 FARYON: And Marylinn? 0:13:22.017,0:13:27.034 MARYLINN: Mine is 15 to life for second-degree murder and I've been down 25. 0:13:27.034,0:13:32.095 FARYON: At the California Institution for Women in Corona California, a group of inmates, 0:13:32.095,0:13:38.049 all convicted murderers, all women, talk about what its like to grow old in prison. 0:13:38.049,0:13:42.034 LINDA: The change is for me my health. 0:13:42.034,0:13:51.074 My health has declined and the getting around that I don't have anymore. 0:13:51.074,0:13:55.007 I didn't think that I would ever grow old. 0:13:55.007,0:14:01.072 That my hips wouldn't work, that I couldn't get down or get up anymore, or my legs. 0:14:01.072,0:14:06.013 MARYLINN: And never in my life did I think I'd be sitting in prison and going, 0:14:06.013,0:14:09.051 "Wow, I'm 70 years old and I don't even have a retirement plan." 0:14:09.051,0:14:12.013 I don't have to go to work everyday because that's the program. 0:14:12.013,0:14:14.039 That's what you have to do. 0:14:14.039,0:14:18.053 Or that I would have lost my whole family behind these circumstances. 0:14:18.053,0:14:21.074 That I would no longer have a family to reach out to. 0:14:21.074,0:14:25.028 FARYON: The women are part of a group called the Golden Girls, 0:14:25.028,0:14:29.003 inmates over 55 who are granted special privileges 0:14:29.003,0:14:31.042 like a double mattress on their metal cots. 0:14:31.042,0:14:33.098 And they're first in line during meals. 0:14:33.098,0:14:35.067 But this is still prison. 0:14:35.067,0:14:37.028 And there are rules. 0:14:37.028,0:14:41.011 Like getting down on the floor when an alarm sounds. 0:14:41.011,0:14:42.060 This happened while we were there. 0:14:42.060,0:14:48.076 59-year-old Linda Vivian can barely make it down or back up again. 0:14:48.076,0:14:53.073 DR. JOSEPH BICK: Prisons weren't built to make it easy 0:14:53.073,0:14:56.076 for mobility-impaired people to get around. 0:14:56.076,0:15:03.025 Prisons were built to safely incarcerate individuals who are sent away 0:15:03.025,0:15:05.062 and keep them from escaping. 0:15:05.062,0:15:10.076 So we're trying to deal with things about how do you accommodate activities of daily living 0:15:10.076,0:15:14.014 of somebody who's in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. 0:15:14.014,0:15:18.079 Simple things like getting their clothes on, using the bathroom, 0:15:18.079,0:15:22.075 ambulating down the hallway to the dining halls. 0:15:22.075,0:15:25.047 Having enough time to eat. 0:15:25.047,0:15:28.080 Having more than 15 minutes to consume a meal. 0:15:28.080,0:15:33.050 FARYON: Dr. Joseph Bick has been working as a prison doctor for 20 years. 0:15:33.050,0:15:38.029 He tends to patients at CMF's hospital and the prison hospice, 0:15:38.029,0:15:41.050 where he's held the hand of many dying inmates. 0:15:41.050,0:15:45.066 DR. JOSEPH BICK: I'm not privy to inmates' commitment offenses as a clinician, 0:15:45.066,0:15:48.052 it's something I'm not particularly interested in knowing. 0:15:48.052,0:15:52.010 In fact I endeavour to not know because I think my job is 0:15:52.010,0:15:57.007 to provide the best quality of health care I can. 0:15:57.007,0:16:01.075 But I'm human too and I don't want to run the risk of being influenced 0:16:01.075,0:16:09.071 by knowledge of someone's commitment offense. 0:16:09.071,0:16:18.050 FARYON: We met two inmates in the prison hospice on the day of our visit. 0:16:18.050,0:16:22.010 Angelo Chavez has end-stage liver disease. 0:16:22.010,0:16:28.033 ANGELO CHAVEZ: I was hoping they would give me a compassionate release 0:16:28.033,0:16:34.040 and that's what I'm waiting for, to see if I can go home to my family. 0:16:34.040,0:16:38.049 FARYON: Chavez is a three striker and serving a life sentence. 0:16:38.049,0:16:42.065 His convictions include drug possession, robbery and manslaughter. 0:16:42.065,0:16:48.050 CHAVEZ: I would love to go home and die out there, than to die here. 0:16:48.050,0:16:50.087 FARYON: We also met Brian Long. 0:16:50.087,0:16:54.061 He has cancer and is expected to live another three months. 0:16:54.061,0:17:00.013 In 1993, Long was convicted of having sex with a minor and served six years. 0:17:00.013,0:17:06.024 In 2003 he was sentenced to 11 years for a second sexual offense against a child. 0:17:06.024,0:17:10.050 In California, inmates can be released for compassionate reasons 0:17:10.050,0:17:13.025 if they have less than six months to live. 0:17:13.025,0:17:17.061 Last year there were 57 requests. 0:17:17.061,0:17:19.058 Three were granted by the courts. 0:17:19.058,0:17:23.005 DR. JOSEPH BICK: People have very strong opinions on all sides 0:17:23.005,0:17:29.038 of this discussion you certainly have people who have been victims or their family members 0:17:29.038,0:17:35.058 of some very heinous crimes from some of the people who live in this facility. 0:17:35.058,0:17:41.007 And they strongly feel that it doesn't matter how old somebody gets or how sick they get 0:17:41.007,0:17:46.003 or what they're likelihood of reoffending is they should spend the rest 0:17:46.003,0:17:47.023 of their life in prison. 0:17:47.023,0:17:50.086 FARYON: But Dr. Bick says we can't deny them health care. 0:17:50.086,0:17:55.045 Not only is it the law, it is also a matter of public health. 0:17:55.045,0:18:00.023 DR. JOSEPH BICK: With so many people incarcerated we choose as a society 0:18:00.023,0:18:05.005 to incarcerate people that come to us with such an incredible burden of disease, 0:18:05.005,0:18:09.033 HIV and hepatitis and tuberculosis and mental illness 0:18:09.033,0:18:14.065 and substance abuse whoa re someday going to go home, to me the tragedy is 0:18:14.065,0:18:18.026 to somehow ignore them an put them off there and assume 0:18:18.026,0:18:21.096 because they're incarcerated they don't matter or they're not going 0:18:21.096,0:18:26.076 to somehow impact upon the general health at time of release. 0:18:26.076,0:18:33.008 FARYON: And how do you see your life playing out then here as you age? 0:18:41.089,0:18:45.033 CAMPBELL: I'll just grow old and eventually I'll die. 0:18:45.033,0:18:48.076 I don't see it as - you know I'm well adapted. 0:18:48.076,0:18:50.076 Institutionalized, if you will. 0:18:50.076,0:18:57.025 So I don't see a problem just existing. 0:18:57.025,0:19:00.028 Eventually I wont be able to function anymore and eventually I'll end 0:19:00.028,0:19:03.008 up in a hospital and eventually I'll die. 0:19:05.022,0:19:09.058 But in the meantime it's going to cost the state an awful lot of money to take care of me. 0:19:09.058,0:19:14.081 FARYON: Terry Campbell was convicted in 1966 of murder during an armed robbery. 0:19:14.081,0:19:21.041 He has two other convictions from 1968 and 1973, both while incarcerated. 0:19:21.041,0:19:25.032 He told KPBS he was mixed up with prison gang violence. 0:19:25.032,0:19:32.044 Since that time Campbell has earned two college degrees FARYON: 0:19:32.044,0:19:37.017 What's your biggest fear about growing old in prison? 0:19:43.079,0:19:51.092 CAMPBELL: I don't know if it's a fear, but my biggest concern about growing old in prison is 0:19:51.092,0:19:56.095 that I went through all the trouble - on a personal level I went through all the trouble 0:19:56.095,0:20:12.008 to change, to become a different person and now I don't know 0:20:12.008,0:20:16.053 for what reason other than personal satisfaction. 0:20:16.053,0:20:18.064 I can't give anything back. 0:20:18.064,0:20:21.034 VIRGIL: And being alone. 0:20:22.048,0:20:33.067 Dying alone where there isn't anyone who cares about you or knows you. 0:20:33.067,0:20:39.060 FARYON: Glenda Virgil was convicted of second-degree murder in 1987 for shooting 0:20:39.060,0:20:41.086 and killing the man with whom she had been involved. 0:20:41.086,0:20:45.013 She told KPBS she had been a battered woman. 0:20:45.013,0:20:47.005 LAURANZANO: They didn't give you life without, 0:20:47.005,0:20:51.041 they didn't give you the death penalty they gave you 25 to life or 15 to life 0:20:51.041,0:20:54.009 that means you get out at some point. 0:20:54.009,0:20:58.042 And if you do everything they say you should get out and be a functioning member of society. 0:20:58.042,0:21:02.024 FARYON: Richard Lauranzano was convicted of seven counts 0:21:02.024,0:21:10.065 of sexual assault with children under 14 in 1984. 0:21:10.065,0:21:15.047 While in prison he was also convicted of murder in connection. 0:21:15.047,0:21:26.001 He is serving a 50-year sentence but is eligible for parole in 2013. 0:21:26.001,0:21:33.081 Lauranzano's cancer is in remission, but he has heart trouble 0:21:33.081,0:21:39.051 and is consulting with experts about surgery. 0:21:39.051,0:21:43.099 GOVERNOR: 30 years ago 10% of the general fund went 0:21:43.099,0:21:48.073 to higher education and only 3% went to prisons. 0:21:48.073,0:21:56.071 Today almost 11% goes to prisons and only 7.5% goes to higher education. 0:21:56.071,0:22:06.000 Spending 45% more on prisons than universities is no way to proceed into the future. 0:22:06.000,0:22:14.009 FARYON: But it will be a difficult ship to turn given California's 30-year history of support 0:22:14.009,0:22:22.095 for longer prison sentences and this administration's record of denying parole. 0:22:22.095,0:22:31.036 Plans to build a new billion-dollar prison to house old inmates who need chronic care 0:22:31.036,0:22:35.014 and inmates who need mental health services are now underway. 0:22:35.014,0:22:37.047 There isn't room for them anywhere else. 0:22:37.047,0:22:41.092 Clark Kelso is also looking at ways to get his outside hospital costs down. 0:22:41.092,0:22:49.035 Last year the state spent 500 million dollars on those visits - about 1,000 very sick 0:22:49.035,0:22:52.073 and dying inmates accounted for most of that cost. 0:22:52.073,0:22:55.070 KELSO: There are solutions I think the legislature 0:22:55.070,0:23:00.078 and the people need o become more comfortable with such as medical parole or other types 0:23:00.078,0:23:05.014 of programs that will get these unhealthy inmates these again inmates 0:23:05.014,0:23:10.080 who don't pose very much threat to the public in terms of recidivism very good numbers there, 0:23:10.080,0:23:16.013 we have to come to a better public understanding in California 0:23:16.013,0:23:19.044 with how to take care of those inmates. 0:23:19.044,0:23:26.000 FARYON: Kelso has been in talks with officials, including the governor's office, 0:23:26.000,0:23:30.016 about releasing some inmates to privately run secure nursing homes. 0:23:30.016,0:23:34.032 According to government statistics, people over 55 have less 0:23:34.032,0:23:38.094 than a four per cent recidivism rate which means they are the least likely of all inmates 0:23:38.094,0:23:41.066 to commit another offense and return to prison. 0:23:41.066,0:23:48.069 And once released from state run prisons, it's likely they'd be eligible 0:23:48.069,0:23:51.014 for federal health care subsidies. 0:23:51.014,0:23:53.090 KELSO: One way or another health care needs 0:23:53.090,0:23:57.035 of these people are going to be paid for by somebody. 0:23:57.035,0:24:01.067 FARYON: Should a life sentence mean a life sentence in California? 0:24:01.067,0:24:04.031 If they're not rehabilitated absolutely. 0:24:04.031,0:24:08.097 HARRIET: What are you going to do with them if you let them out? 0:24:08.097,0:24:11.086 Where are they going to go? 0:24:11.086,0:24:14.038 What are you going to do with them? 0:24:14.038,0:24:18.007 You're going to say they're not going to commit a crime if they can't get a job 0:24:18.007,0:24:27.038 and you're talking maybe 65 they need to make some income and they cant get a job 0:24:27.038,0:24:32.085 and they have no place to live what are they going to do they're going 0:24:32.085,0:24:36.020 to rob somebody's home, where are they going to get the money. 0:24:36.020,0:24:42.060 You just don't open the door here's your $200 go get the bus. 0:24:42.060,0:24:45.033 FARYON: Do you ever think you will get out? 0:24:45.033,0:24:47.036 CAMPBELL: No. 0:24:47.036,0:24:47.097 No I don't. 0:24:47.097,0:24:59.007 That saying about it doesn't really matter where you are, but it always matters who you are? 0:24:59.007,0:25:00.000 You know, that applies. 0:25:00.000,0:25:11.046 That applies to a lot of us that are in prison because there are a lot of lifers who came 0:25:11.046,0:25:20.066 to prison, who didn't get into trouble like I got into trouble 0:25:20.066,0:25:28.018 when I came to prison, who are still here. 0:25:28.018,0:25:37.003 And they're sitting around wondering, well what do I have to do? 0:25:37.003,0:25:42.047 What do I have to do to get out of prison? 0:25:42.047,0:25:48.093 How do I prove myself and who do I prove myself to? 0:25:48.093,0:25:53.026 And there's no answer. 0:25:53.026,0:26:16.018 FARYON: You can learn more about this issue by going to our website, kpbs.org/prisons. 0:26:16.018,0:26:25.027 And you can also leave us a comment. 0:26:25.027,0:26:30.032 We'd love to hear from you. 0:26:30.032,0:26:45.011 For KPBS, I'm Joanne Faryon, thanks for watching.