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Herald Angel: OK. So our next speakers are
going to talk about the charges against
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Julian Assange and WikiLeaks, which is a
topic that's very close to our hearts. I
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guess, most our hearts at least. And it's
also something that's incredibly important
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for us as a community and it's a threat
against the entire tech community,
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minorities, human rights advocates,
activists. So a lot of people you
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should really care about. And the speakers
are Renata Avila, who's the executive
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director of Fundación Ciudadanía
Inteligente. Yay!
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applause
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Renata Avila: Well done.
Herald Angel: Naomi Colvin, who is the UK
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program director at Blueprint for Free
Speech - which is much easier to
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pronounce, thank you so much -
supporting applause and speakers laughing
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Herald Angel: And Angel Richter, who's a
director and writer and artist and a lot
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of things, and she specializes on
whistleblowing and digital dissidents, and
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one of the plays, which is transmedia
play. You might know, it's called Super
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Nerds. So a round of applause for our
amazing speakers. And let's begin the talk.
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applause and cheering
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Angela Richter: Thank you very much. Good
evening, everyone, and thank you for
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coming here tonight. And thank you also
for our introduction by the moderator, a
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very charming guy, as I thought. And also
good to give a little bit lightness to
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this - for me very serious issue actually
- that we are here. Like you said, I am
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an artist. And for me, WikiLeaks was very
important. And also Julian Assange,
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because somehow they were the entrance for
me as an artist to this community that
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became very dear to me in the last 10
years. And I attended some of the
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Congresses in the last 10 years and
learned a lot about things that I never
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knew before. So I owe a lot, actually, to
WikiLeaks and also to this community,
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because it opened so many things for me
up. So, yeah, this I wanted to say first
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and then I will also show a little piece
of a recent play I did in Zagreb. It's by
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Slavoj Žižek, who is also supported by
Julian. And it is not so much... It is
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related to our topic. It's a little bit
like a mood board that we want to show
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before we start.
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Richter: And like he said, this will be
about how we can support WikiLeaks. And of
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course, Julian Assange, which is also a
very personal matter for me, because he
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became a very close friend in the last 10
years who I also owe a lot. And on the
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other hand, I think it's not only about
him and his life, which is serious enough,
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but I think that this thing that is
happening to him, that he's being charged
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with the Espionage Act - this is the first
time that something like this happens to a
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publisher - is a threat to free speech to
all of our freedom. And it means that
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actually everyone who speaks truth to
power can be kidnapped, extradited to the
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US and then end up in prison for the rest
of his life. And I think that this is -
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for this community also - a threat,
especially because we all know that we are
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trying to be secure. Secure free speech is
very important issue here. So, yeah. We
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will go into the details in the course of
this week. Thank you very much.
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video with soft, slow,
but deep orchestra music
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music gets more,
dramatic and continues
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voices of the speakers are not heard,
music continues
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applause followed by short
silence
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Renata Avila: We will try to be brief to
leave enough time for questions, because
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we think that you have a lot of questions
on this case and so we will alternate and
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discuss different issues, starting with:
What are we at now?
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Richter: Yes. On the left side, you see
Belmarsh Prison. This is the high security
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prison that Julian is housed at the
moment. And what I find very chilling
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about it,is that it's actually a place
where usually you find terrorists,
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murderers and mafia people and so on. So,
high criminals. And he is only at the
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moment being held there for extradition
reasons, which is also extreme, because he
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is 23 hours a day alone in his cell, which
is actually isolation. And then the next
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picture shows a typical room in a prison
in Virginia, where Chelsea Manning is held
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at the moment, again. And I think, it must
be something like 10 months in the
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meantime, that she is again in prison,
because she is not willing to testify
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against Julian Assange in front of a grand
jury.
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Avila: So raise your hand if you have less
than 30 years. So -
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Richter: OK. Thank you.
Avila: - that says a lot, because it means
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that probably your first encounter with
WikiLeaks was just only 5 years ago. And
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you were a teen, when many things were
happening. And we know that today is Young
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Hackers Day, so it was important for us to
quickly go through the important
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publications that WikiLeaks published in
the last decade. Why? Because there are
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many misconceptions since 2016 and a lot
of misinformation followed the election of
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Donald Trump. And so we want to show here
and it is, of course, not a detailed list.
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You can find a detailed list on WikiLeaks,
on Wikipedia - two concepts at the
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beginning were all of them mixed,
actually. And the same principles followed,
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I would say. But what I want to show here
is the most impactful publications by
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WikiLeaks, that changed the course of
history in many places and also -
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highlighted in green - their political
persecution moments. Not only against
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Julian Assange, but against other people
that were closely connected to these
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developments in the last decade. So 2008
was a very exciting year for WikiLeaks
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because I think that - even if it was
created before - was the year that it got
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mainstream. Why? Because it changed
elections in Kenya by exposing
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extrajudicial killings. And it really
changed the outcome of the election. Like
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people realized that one of the candidates
was involved in these extrajudicial
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killings of young people. And that really
impacted deeply the African nation. Not
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only that, you may have forgotten about
that, but he was the first publication of
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the batch of emails from Sarah Palin. And
also, there were lots of publications in
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Latin America. That's how I became
familiar with WikiLeaks and very excited
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about that. Petrol Gate, the biggest
scandal of corruption in Peru. And so,
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publications involving Guerillas and False
Positives in the Colombian war. It has
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started, like, from the places from
Africa, from Latin America and also the
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US. On 2009, I will say that the highlight
and why WikiLeaks became very busy, well,
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it exposed a lot of the censorship lists
out of China and Iran and other countries.
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The Internet was not what it used ... it
is not what it is today. Censorship was
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tangible. You will see a blocked website.
And now, as we will discuss later, now
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it's a different form of censorship. And
so WikiLeaks at the moment was the
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guardian of this free internet and also it
was their big moment in Iceland. And the
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big opportunity for WikiLeaks as well. In
a jurisdiction to become not only a
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publisher, but a designer of a new
ecosystem of freedom of information. So it
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exposed the corrupt involving the
financial scandal there. And it got
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really, really exciting there. Things,
like the EME initiative and all the things
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that are now part of our history. Then
2010 and then 2010 was the year when
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things started to get really complicated.
Why? Because instead of torching countries
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in the periphery or torching developing
countries. So it's OK. It's always cool to
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expose there by human rights violations of
an African or Latin American person in
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power. But when you torch the center of
power, when you torch the most powerful
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military in the world, you get into
trouble. So on 2010, Collateral Murder
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video was published, The Afghan War
Diaries, Iraq War Logs and cable gate. And
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that was the moment when Julian Assange
was arrested. It was not arrested because
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of the publications. It was just a few
days after the publication started that he
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was arrested on behalf of Sweden. And no
charges, it was not because of charges. It
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was because of ongoing investigation.
2011, the Gitmo files, spy files, the spy
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files. The first batch of publication, 160
companies involved in mass surveillance,
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private mass surveillance. That was Pre-
Snowden, remember that. And that, at that
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moment Julian only spent a little in the
same prison that he is now, only a few days.
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Then he was released on bail. But from
that moment, from the moment that he put,
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he presented himself - he surrendered
himself to the police, he never hide -
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he voluntarily went there when he was
requested. From that moment, his life
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became a hell of surveillance. He was, not
only, had a tag on his ankle following him
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everywhere, but he had the most strict
bail conditions that you can imagine. He
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could not even give a talk in London
because he will have to go back. He had
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ridiculous hours to report himself to the
police. He was watched all the time. He
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had to report to the police on a daily
basis. Someone suspected of terrorism was
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enjoying more relaxed conditions than
someone who wasn't charged. And that's a
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constant. In this case and other
politically motivated cases, you are not
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the rule, you are the exception. And
exceptionally harsh the system treats you.
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In 2012 struck for e-mails and also the
Syria files. Syria files is a publication
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that is not often mentioned, but it was
very relevant. Exposing all the dealings
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of the Syrian elites. And Julian is
granted political asylum in Ecuador. He
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could have requested political asylum much
earlier, but he wanted to go through all
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the legal process in the UK and all their
appeals. And it was his last chance to
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exercise that right. Then 2013, the TPP
text and Spy Files 2. And that was the
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moment when Manning was sentenced to 35
years in prison. As Snowden is granted
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asylum in Moscow as well. And Jeremy
Hammond is convicted and sentenced to 10
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years in prison. Jeremy Hammond is the
alleged source of the Stratford, the
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Global Intelligence Files. Then 2014 TISA,
Spy Files 3 and the updated TPP text, then
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2015, the Sony archives, the Saudi cables.
Actually, that Saudi cable publication was
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one of the most dangerous ones. You
saw what happened to journalist Jamal
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Khashoggi. I mean, it is very, very
dangerous publication and hacking team
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searchable database and the TPP final
texts. This is very important because it
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really changed the life for better of
loads of people. I personally work on
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global trade issues and the negotiators of
developing countries or representing
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under-represented communities, like, they
are so thankful to WikiLeaks for releasing
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and publishing the TPP/IP chapter because
it means better access to medicine. It got
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the people with better conditions for
negotiations in key issues such as access
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to medicines. Then 2016, I would say that
I will compare to 2010. And then you,
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again, torch the center of power.
WikiLeaks torch again the center of power
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by publishing the Clinton, Podesta and DNC
emails. And that change allowed the
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narrative and changed a lot the narrative
in a very different world because it was
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not any more tangible censorship on deck
or the clear publication. But our
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information ecosystem, as we know, had
been modified by social networks, by
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different forms of distributing and
accessing content. 2017, Obama leaves the
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administration by commuting Chelsea
Manning sentence and she's later release
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that year. And WikiLeaks publishes NSA
spying on French Election. Vault 7, which
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is their tool kit of spying of the CIA and
the spy files of Russia. 2018, Amazon
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Atlas, US embassy shopping list and their
weapon dealers details. Here is very
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important that the conditions of Julian
changed radically after 2016 at the
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Ecuadorian embassy and the pressure of the
US increased terribly. And he was not
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allowed anymore to do his job as a
journalist. He spent most of the year
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gagged, and he could not participate
activel, directly on his role
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as editor. And 2019, you saw in the video.
Assange is arrested. Manning is arrested
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again. But in spite of that, in spite of
all the pressure, WikiLeaks refuses to
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shut down and continues publishing. The
Pope orders, the Douma Chemical Attack and
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Fishrot. So as you can see, Julian has
upset and WikiLeaks has upset enough
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people from the most powerful army in the
world to the most powerful governments to
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the most powerful corporations. And so
their plans, frustrated with the TPP
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collapse, and the TTAP collapse, and TISA
collapse to even the Pope. So if you
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upset, if you expose so many people, you
have very few allies left. You have
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basically the people as your allies. So
that's why this talk is really, really,
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really important. And you have also the
media, because over the 10 years WikiLeaks
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has worked closely with most of the news
outlets all over the world. If you checked
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your newspaper tomorrow morning, it's
highly likely that it was one of the
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WikiLeaks media partners. This is just a
small sample of over 125
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media organizations all over the
world that had collaborated closely with
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WikiLeaks.
Richter: And I just want to add a very
00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:42.299
interesting little detail that John Goetz
told me, who was at that time - He's a
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journalist. He now works for Süddeutsche
and ARD - and at that time, he was working
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for Der Spiegel, who also worked closely
with WikiLeaks at that time, 2010. And
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they published Cable Gate. And it's
interesting to know that due to a
00:19:57.429 --> 00:20:03.390
technical glitch, because the deal was
that WikiLeaks publishes first and after
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that, the newspapers follow. Spiegel, New
York Times, Guardian and so on. And due to
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:14.810
this glitch, WikiLeaks was not able to
publish in time. So they were too late
00:20:14.810 --> 00:20:20.669
with the publishing and all the newspapers
came out already. So technically they
00:20:20.669 --> 00:20:24.970
published first, which is very important
for the case in a way, because he's
00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:30.910
charged because he published it first, the
Cable Gate. And it would be interesting
00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:35.620
because what does it mean? It means that
actually the journalists from Spiegel and
00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:42.080
New York Times and Guardian could face the
same penalties. And when you imagin that,
00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:46.570
then I think the impact it has on
publishing becomes even more chilling and
00:20:46.570 --> 00:20:51.140
clear, you know. So I thought to tell you
this little detail about the publishing of
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Cable Gate.
Avila: So what happened on
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April 11 when he was expelled from the
embassy and dragged out is something that
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goes beyond just Julian Assange. As a
human rights lawyer, do you know when I
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see political unrest, when I see people,
dissidents at risk, I always tell them
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have a good relationship with a friendly
embassy, that defends human rights and in
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case of trouble, get there, get inside an
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embassy. It is happening now with
dissidents in Bolivia, for example, who
00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:29.670
are like right now at the embassy, in the
embassy in Mexico. And we advise any of
00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:38.360
you do that. But now with caution, because
now, since the violation and since this
00:21:38.360 --> 00:21:44.240
really brutal way that asylum was taken
away from an illegal way, that asylum was
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:49.460
taken away from Julian and the way that
police from a different country enters an
00:21:49.460 --> 00:21:57.070
embassy, asylum has been weakened forever
until we reverse this. That's why this is
00:21:57.070 --> 00:22:02.280
yet another reason why this case is very
important. Right now, you know, even the
00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:09.669
government of Bolivia is threatening the
Mexican embassy to get inside and take out
00:22:09.669 --> 00:22:16.960
the dissidents seeking asylum inside the
embassy. It is really upsetting to see how
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:22.840
an institution has over 400 years that was
designed to protect dissidents is being
00:22:22.840 --> 00:22:30.110
dismantled by this scandalous case. And
well, when he was out, it happened what we
00:22:30.110 --> 00:22:38.110
had predicted for years. For years we have
been saying at the moment when his arrest
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that they will unseal an indictment for
espionage. And everyone will look at us
00:22:42.870 --> 00:22:48.500
like back in 2010 and 2011, say, look,
you're paranoid. There is no way that the
00:22:48.500 --> 00:22:55.020
US is going to prosecute Julian. He's just
hiding from Swedish charges that were
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saying. Always charges, even there were
never charges. And he is a coward and he's
00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:05.110
a paranoid. And this is not going to
happen. It happened immediately, and it
00:23:05.110 --> 00:23:12.809
happened immediately. And just as
predicted, it was so upsetting to see the
00:23:12.809 --> 00:23:18.140
result of the Swedish investigation,
because not only, over there, I mean,
00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:23.410
there was a good journalist doing her job
and she discovered over the years
00:23:23.410 --> 00:23:30.500
different irregularities. Sweden wanted to
shut down the case back in 2013, after the
00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:36.919
asylum was granted. An obstacle... it was
a collusion. And it's really good... if
00:23:36.919 --> 00:23:41.960
you like documents and you like deep
research, get into the documents that are
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:47.980
already available and see how the UK
system put a lot of pressure on Sweden,
00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:55.910
not to prosecute this case as they usually
prosecute any case. Things as simple as a
00:23:55.910 --> 00:24:00.909
videoconference could have been taking
place back in 2010, back on August,
00:24:00.909 --> 00:24:06.640
September 2010. And it didn't happen
because of a lot of political pressure.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:13.669
So, now the charges. There are 18 charges
against Julian Assange and they might be
00:24:13.669 --> 00:24:19.890
charges against more people who were
mentioned in the indictment. The charges,
00:24:19.890 --> 00:24:28.440
that he's facing for publishing, amount
to 175 years in prison. And to make your
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:34.130
life simpler, basically the charges
are: online publishing, protecting
00:24:34.130 --> 00:24:40.530
sources and doing journalism. If you read
what it is about, it's really chilling and
00:24:40.530 --> 00:24:46.920
is especially chilling because look at
who's in charge now. Right now all over
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:52.450
the world. And it is the first time that
the Justice Department gets away with it.
00:24:52.450 --> 00:24:59.070
It is using that very anachronic law to
obtain an indictment from a grand jury,
00:24:59.070 --> 00:25:05.470
that is from a group of people who thinks
that it is okay to prosecute under
00:25:05.470 --> 00:25:13.500
Espionage Act charges, online publication.
If you get a takeaway from tonight: This
00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:19.910
is the takeaway. This is the serious thing
that we are discussing right now. And the
00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:25.270
thing is, this is important, because at
the center of this is our right to know.
00:25:25.270 --> 00:25:34.440
The right to publish it on our site, is
our right to know. Three relevant aspects
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:40.450
of the charges. You will read a lot of:
"Oooh, but WikiLeaks and Julian had blood
00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:47.280
on his hands." "It risked informants and
put at risk." These charges have
00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:53.110
nothing to do with this risk assessment.
That will not be even known by the court.
00:25:53.110 --> 00:25:58.910
These redactions and these measures of
protection, that, over another in media,
00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:05.559
not relevant for their espionage charges.
And it is also important to notice, that
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:10.980
it mentions constantly over the indictment,
WikiLeaks as an intelligence agency of the
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:17.750
people. And that mirrors the language of
Pompeo, the current secretary of state,
00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:26.390
who is trying to frame WikiLeaks as a non-
state terrorist actor. Like the equivalent
00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:33.929
of al-Qaeda. And that has huge, horrible
implications, not only on the core
00:26:33.929 --> 00:26:39.240
WikiLeaks organization, but on supporters
even wearing a T-shirt, reading a book
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:45.789
about it. It can place you in a not so
nice place. The important thing, that is
00:26:45.789 --> 00:26:52.870
very worrying is, that more people may be
detained and charged, before or after the
00:26:52.870 --> 00:26:56.850
extradition takes place.
Colvin: And we don't have to speculate
00:26:56.850 --> 00:27:02.290
about this dragnet, of course, because it
is already here. Already here in its
00:27:02.290 --> 00:27:08.250
pattern of intimidation and petty and
vindictiveness. Chelsea Manning, one of
00:27:08.250 --> 00:27:12.840
the great heroes of our time, one month
before Julian was expelled from the
00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:16.700
Ecuadorian embassy and arrested on U.S.
charges, just like it always said would
00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:22.200
happen. One month before, Chelsea Manning
received a subpoena to testify before a
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:27.549
grand jury in the Eastern District of
Virginia. She refused to testify and was
00:27:27.549 --> 00:27:35.340
imprisoned for contempt. She is
currently... she's served 10 months. Back
00:27:35.340 --> 00:27:40.780
in prison, she is currently being fined a
thousand dollars for every day she spends
00:27:40.780 --> 00:27:46.480
in prison, not testifying. This is what
Chelsea said about what is happening, in a
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:51.630
statement in May: "I believe this grand
jury seeks to undermine the integrity of
00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:56.220
public discourse with the aim of punishing
those who expose any serious, ongoing and
00:27:56.220 --> 00:28:01.485
systematic abuses of power. The idea I
hold the keys to my own cell is an absurd
00:28:01.485 --> 00:28:05.610
one. As I face the prospect of suffering
either way, due to this unnecessary and
00:28:05.610 --> 00:28:11.500
punitive subpoena: I can either go to jail
or betray my principles. The latter exists
00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:18.620
as a much worse prison than the government
can construct." In September, Jeremy
00:28:18.620 --> 00:28:23.779
Hammond, coming to the end of a long
prison sentence for his role in the
00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:30.150
publication of the Go Global intelligence
files. He received a, he was called,
00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:34.640
against his will, to testify before a
grand jury, again, in the Eastern District
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:41.490
of Virginia. Again, he refused to testify.
Again, he's been jailed for a possible 18
00:28:41.490 --> 00:28:48.150
months on contempt. Because this is what
he had to say about it in October: "After
00:28:48.150 --> 00:28:52.320
seven and a half years of paying my debt
to society, the government seeks to punish
00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:56.039
me further with its vindictive,
politically motivated legal maneuver to
00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:00.670
delay my release. I am opposed to all
grand juries, but I am opposed to this one
00:29:00.670 --> 00:29:04.529
in particular because it is a part of the
government's ongoing war on free speech
00:29:04.529 --> 00:29:09.761
journalists and whistleblowers." If this
hadn't happened to Jeremy, he would be in
00:29:09.761 --> 00:29:15.440
a halfway house by now. He would've been
released from prison. He might have been
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:23.429
participating in this Congress. On the
11th of April this year, the same day that
00:29:23.429 --> 00:29:27.980
Julian was expelled from the Ecuadorian
embassy and arrested and indicted by the
00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:32.950
United States, just like he always said
would happen, his friend Ola Bini was
00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:39.110
arrested in Ecuador. Ola spent two months
in an Ecuadorian prison in absolutely
00:29:39.110 --> 00:29:44.387
disgusting conditions, until he was
released by a writ of habeas corpus. Ola
00:29:44.387 --> 00:29:48.240
has now been charged with charges that
suggest that the prosecutors in Ecuador
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.257
don't really understand what it is, that
security researchers do every day. Senior
00:29:53.257 --> 00:29:56.870
Ecuadorian politicians, the most senior
Ecuadorian politicians, have been on
00:29:56.870 --> 00:30:03.254
television in Ecuador, saying that Ola is
guilty before any trial date has been set.
00:30:03.254 --> 00:30:09.460
Organizations like Amnesty and EFF have
said, that Ola's prosecution is political.
00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:16.100
And of course, they are quite correct.
It's all political. Extradition is
00:30:16.100 --> 00:30:20.720
political. Don't let anyone tell you
differently. Extradition is an
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:26.600
institution, developed as a deal behind
closed doors, done between sovereign
00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:31.529
powers. It's only in the past hundred
years or so, the parts that have been
00:30:31.529 --> 00:30:36.440
transferred into courtrooms. But
politicians still have an active role in
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.979
extradition proceedings, and sometimes
extradition is used for political
00:30:39.979 --> 00:30:46.809
purposes. Extradition in the UK is also
very political. What is it that every taxi
00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:50.010
driver in London could tell you about
extradition? if you don't believe me,
00:30:50.010 --> 00:30:53.700
you're welcome to test this out
empirically, next time you're in town.
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:58.840
What is it they'll tell you? They will
tell you that the UK has an unfair,
00:30:58.840 --> 00:31:05.640
unequal, unbalanced, inequitable extradition
treaty with the United States. This treaty
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.039
dates from 2002, when Tony Blair was keen
to give the United States everything it
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:17.960
could possibly want and more. One of the
gentlemen pictured in this slide is Gary
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:23.720
McKinnon. Very shortly after the 2002
extradition treaty came into force, Gary
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:29.140
McKinnon started a 10 year battle not to
be extradited to the United States on
00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:34.080
hacking charges. He prevailed, in the end,
but only after he'd been through the
00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:42.540
entire legal process twice. And he was
rescued, eventually, by the say so of a UK
00:31:42.540 --> 00:31:46.730
home secretary. The other gentleman on
that slide is Lowry Love. In February last
00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:53.450
year, Larry won his battle against
extradition to the United States, again on
00:31:53.450 --> 00:31:58.814
hacking charges, at appeal in the high
court. I was involved in that campaign.
00:31:58.814 --> 00:32:02.770
I'm glad he won. I'm glad he won, because
it means we have a hope of saving Julian.
00:32:02.770 --> 00:32:08.740
He'd be in trouble if he hadn't. Larry won
on two different bases. One of them is
00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:13.400
very relevant. One of the reasons why
Lowry won his battle against extradition
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:17.510
is, because judges in the high court,
including the most senior judge in England
00:32:17.510 --> 00:32:24.120
and Wales, ruled that U.S. prisons are so
bad, the conditions are so barbaric, so
00:32:24.120 --> 00:32:28.280
medieval, that somebody with preexisting
health conditions like Lowry, there was no
00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:33.340
guarantee he'd stay alive in a US prison.
You might be hearing more about that in
00:32:33.340 --> 00:32:41.590
February next year. But there are other
big, big issues involved in Julian
00:32:41.590 --> 00:32:46.600
Assange's extradition case. Big, big
issues that don't necessarily involve him
00:32:46.600 --> 00:32:53.529
that much at all. The first clip on that
slide is a part of Jon Stewart Mill's
00:32:53.529 --> 00:32:58.360
autobiography. John Stuart Mill, liberal
philosopher, and also a British politician,
00:32:58.360 --> 00:33:06.020
for a bit. And in this extract, he's
talking about how he battled to change an
00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:11.980
earlier incarnation of a UK extradition
treaty because he didn't want the British
00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:16.020
government to become, quote, "an
accomplice in the vengeance of foreign
00:33:16.020 --> 00:33:21.010
despotisms". Extradition should not be
used as a political tool for foreign
00:33:21.010 --> 00:33:27.390
governments to pursue and punish people it
doesn't like. People who are guilty of
00:33:27.390 --> 00:33:33.950
political offenses. It's a fundamental
question of sovereignty. If you were at
00:33:33.950 --> 00:33:38.399
Andy Müller-Maguhn's excellent talk
yesterday morning, you will have heard
00:33:38.399 --> 00:33:43.130
about the pervasive, thoroughgoing and
quite frightening surveillance that was
00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:46.940
happening at the at Ecuadorian embassy for
the seven years that Julian Assange was
00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:54.010
living there. This raises a fundamental
issue: If your every legal conference, all
00:33:54.010 --> 00:33:58.800
of your discussions with your lawyers are
being surveilled and allegedly passed
00:33:58.800 --> 00:34:02.390
straight to the power that's trying to
prosecute you, if all of your legal
00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:05.970
documents are handed over, allegedly -
well, actually, we know that - to the
00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:09.920
power that's trying to prosecute you. What
does that mean for your chances of a fair
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:15.349
trial? If you care about surveillance at
all, we're going to have to make a stand
00:34:15.349 --> 00:34:19.349
in this very extreme case, because if we
don't, how are we ever going to stand up
00:34:19.349 --> 00:34:26.510
for fair trial rights for anyone?
Richter: Yes. And before I go further in
00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:31.359
our topic, I just want to say that I have
personal experience with the surveillance
00:34:31.359 --> 00:34:37.679
happening in the embassy, because I used
to visit Julian many, many times, maybe 30
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.799
times from the moment he entered the
embassy till the last time I saw him is
00:34:42.799 --> 00:34:48.049
nearly exactly a year ago. It was around
Christmas last year. And at that point, I
00:34:48.049 --> 00:34:54.700
mean, I really could see the eroding
conditions that he lived in. I mean, just
00:34:54.700 --> 00:34:58.849
to see a person that didn't see the
sunlight for 7 years or something was
00:34:58.849 --> 00:35:06.569
terrible enough. But then the last year
when he lived quasi in isolation, had no
00:35:06.569 --> 00:35:12.650
access to phone or to internet, nothing,
because that was the way that he had
00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:17.739
contact with the world and had no visitors
anymore for nearly a year, I think,
00:35:17.739 --> 00:35:27.390
because we the people that visited him, we
were kind of his door to the world. And it
00:35:27.390 --> 00:35:32.400
was for me, very, very, very weird to be
surveilled all the time when I was there.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:38.890
Sometimes I spend five hours at least
there. And after a while, you just feel
00:35:38.890 --> 00:35:42.970
very uncomfortable. I was so happy when I
could leave that building, actually.
00:35:42.970 --> 00:35:48.430
Especially in the last two years. And then
I could not imagine staying there like him
00:35:48.430 --> 00:35:52.979
having no private moment. I mean, in the
end, they even put cameras in the
00:35:52.979 --> 00:35:58.630
bathrooms and and the toilets and so on. I
know there was this tiny kitchen,
00:35:58.630 --> 00:36:02.440
sometimes we used to hide from the cameras
to just have a moment of just talking
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:09.059
without feeling surveilled. And then he
had also this little apparatus, I think
00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:14.980
Andy was talking about it yesterday in his
talk, that was causing white noise. And I
00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:20.160
was really annoyed, to be honest, by this
little thing. And I was always, I was also
00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:24.729
thinking about, my God, maybe he is too
paranoid, you know. Because the weird
00:36:24.729 --> 00:36:29.150
thing is you get used to everything, and
somehow, like us now being surveilled all
00:36:29.150 --> 00:36:33.920
the time through our phones and laptops
and so on, and we get used to it. But he
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:39.029
always insisted, even when we were talking
like banal stuff about, I don't know, a
00:36:39.029 --> 00:36:45.759
soccer game or something, the little sound
machine was on causing white noise. And
00:36:45.759 --> 00:36:49.660
not only it caused disturbance for the
surveillors, it also caused headaches in
00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:57.339
my head. And so, yeah, it's actually a
very sad story. And for me, it was to see
00:36:57.339 --> 00:37:01.430
the process, when especially after the
government, the conservative government
00:37:01.430 --> 00:37:07.030
came into power in Ecuador, his status
very much changed. And so he became more
00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:12.099
and more something I would describe as a
prisoner and not someone who has asylum.
00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:19.250
Okay. This is on my personal note, how I
experienced it. And the other thing is, on
00:37:19.250 --> 00:37:25.150
this picture you see one of the first
protests that we did in Berlin, it was
00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:32.630
this year in May. It was a little after he
was dragged out of the embassy. And we
00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:40.369
were there with some people, including
Srećko Horvat, Croatian philosopher. And
00:37:40.369 --> 00:37:44.369
as you see on the picture also Ai Weiwei,
the Chinese artist and human rights
00:37:44.369 --> 00:37:53.099
advocate, who also openly supported
Assange always, and also not afraid of
00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:59.150
consequences, actually. And he
also visited him in prison. And what is
00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:04.140
also an interesting fact, that Ai Weiwei
also made the connection between the
00:38:04.140 --> 00:38:11.640
protests against the extradition law in
Hong Kong. And he connected with this very
00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:16.730
controversial extradition case of Julian
in the UK at the moment. So for me, it's
00:38:16.730 --> 00:38:21.970
sometimes something I could never believe
in, former times that I will be in a
00:38:21.970 --> 00:38:27.110
situation where we in the West, who are
the good ones and the free West, the so-
00:38:27.110 --> 00:38:33.589
called free West is somehow actually in
the top 10 of having dissidents in
00:38:33.589 --> 00:38:41.880
prisons, including the ones that we just
named, and that no human rights seem to be
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:48.170
valuable anymore. And I find this very
concerning, I must say, also on a private
00:38:48.170 --> 00:39:00.440
level. Yes. And I was there, too, as you
see in the photograph. And before I went
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:07.459
to the protest I was in Moscow, and I
visited Edward Snowden, because I also
00:39:07.459 --> 00:39:11.849
worked with him together. He helped me a
lot on the place I did. And this was the
00:39:11.849 --> 00:39:16.670
third time, actually, that I visited him.
And we also talked about Julian's case,
00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:23.269
and he gave me a letter of support that I
was reading out loud on this protest. And
00:39:23.269 --> 00:39:27.940
I will just read a little bit of it, that
you can see now: "By the government's own
00:39:27.940 --> 00:39:32.009
admission, Assange has been charged for
his role in bringing to light true
00:39:32.009 --> 00:39:37.589
information. Information that exposed war
crimes and wrongdoing perpetrated by the
00:39:37.589 --> 00:39:43.749
most powerful military in the history of
the world. It is not just a man who stands
00:39:43.749 --> 00:39:50.940
in jeopardy, but the future of the free
press." Yes, and I think that he is very
00:39:50.940 --> 00:40:01.849
much right in this case, because what does
it mean? I mean, for me, I'm also in the
00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:07.709
meantime, working as a journalist for Der
Freitag, I published a few of the articles
00:40:07.709 --> 00:40:15.200
about him and Snowden, and basically about
whistleblowing and these things. And if he
00:40:15.200 --> 00:40:21.660
can - if publishing becomes a crime,
telling the truth becomes a crime. And if
00:40:21.660 --> 00:40:28.769
you are not able to work with sources, to
protect sources and to actively also try
00:40:28.769 --> 00:40:39.009
to obtain material about truth. And
because we live in a democracy where the
00:40:39.009 --> 00:40:44.440
powers have to be shared and to have a
balance of power, because as we know, when
00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:54.009
power gets into a monopoly, it will always
be abused. And so...
00:40:54.009 --> 00:40:58.709
mumbling
I will cut it short. It has bad
00:40:58.709 --> 00:41:03.400
implications for journalists. And if this
happens to Julian, it is a threat not only
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:09.540
to journalism, but to democracy itself.
Avila: So we will accelerate, because all
00:41:09.540 --> 00:41:15.059
the what comes next is very, very
important. And yes, we saw immediately
00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:22.940
after the arrest of Julian the situation
going really badly in Australia. But what
00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:28.130
I wanted to discuss, we wanted to discuss
with you tonight, this is about you, about
00:41:28.130 --> 00:41:35.569
someone just like you. You can see, I
mean, I guess I can see you there. I can
00:41:35.569 --> 00:41:40.019
see you in these pictures and I can see
lots of similarities. You belong to the
00:41:40.019 --> 00:41:46.660
same species, basically. He was a single
father. He was prosecuted at a very, very
00:41:46.660 --> 00:41:52.829
young age. Spent five years of his 20s
fighting a legal process. But he was all
00:41:52.829 --> 00:41:57.819
the time with his computer. I cannot, I
really cannot imagine how his life was
00:41:57.819 --> 00:42:02.829
since April, away from his computer. Can
you imagine your life away from your
00:42:02.829 --> 00:42:08.299
computer even for one day? Imagine since
April, he has been away from his computer
00:42:08.299 --> 00:42:15.839
and only having one hour a day outside a
prison cell. And so while he was raising
00:42:15.839 --> 00:42:22.690
up a kid as a single parent, and while he
was dealing with a hacking legal process,
00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:29.089
he also was actively working for our
communities. He was co-running one of the
00:42:29.089 --> 00:42:34.319
first public access Internet providers in
Australia. He was always involved and
00:42:34.319 --> 00:42:40.599
dedicated thousands of hours to the free
software movement. His code was even used
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:47.530
by Apple and other operating system. So
chances are that today, even today, our
00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:54.029
computers, our Apple devices - for the bad
people who uses Apple like me - Ironic
00:42:54.029 --> 00:43:02.180
part of his code. He was also from very
early time trying to find ways for
00:43:02.180 --> 00:43:09.319
vulnerable groups such as human rights
defenders, ways to encrypt their devices.
00:43:09.319 --> 00:43:14.190
And so he was very active before
WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks just was an upgrade,
00:43:14.190 --> 00:43:19.959
kind of, on his plans. And I also want
to mention that the CCC is mentioned,
00:43:19.959 --> 00:43:27.950
expressly mentioned, in that part of the
indictment against Julian. So what happens
00:43:27.950 --> 00:43:37.009
here, you know, it matters there. I think
that the sole fact that the community is
00:43:37.009 --> 00:43:42.130
mentioned on an indictment against a
journalist is enough reason to stand up
00:43:42.130 --> 00:43:46.930
and say something about it and organize
around it. But it is not only the
00:43:46.930 --> 00:43:53.570
community name on the indictment, and the
criminal complaint is also our
00:43:53.570 --> 00:44:00.640
communication practices. Raise your hand
if you have a Jabber account. So, yes, the
00:44:00.640 --> 00:44:04.829
Jabber server, the CCC server, is
mentioned in the criminal complaint
00:44:04.829 --> 00:44:10.809
against Julian.
Colvin: Well, yeah, I mean, but what's
00:44:10.809 --> 00:44:17.971
even more worrying is - oh, the microphone
- What's there is worrying, but what's
00:44:17.971 --> 00:44:23.079
even more worrying is that it's a moving
target. Things are still continuing. This
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:28.180
is part of a submission the US government
made in Chelsea Manning's ongoing
00:44:28.180 --> 00:44:32.969
procedures talk about an ongoing
investigation. There's more to come. And
00:44:32.969 --> 00:44:40.999
it's even more bad omens. microphone noise Like that one.
Even more bad omens from from across the
00:44:40.999 --> 00:44:47.799
water in unrelated cases and will
prosecutorial series that are being put
00:44:47.799 --> 00:44:53.160
together, which are very disturbing and
augur for very bad things to come. I can't
00:44:53.160 --> 00:44:57.359
talk about that now, but it's an excellent
issue for the Q and A. What happens next?
00:44:57.359 --> 00:45:01.489
Well, immediately what's going to happen
next is that on the 24th of February, for
00:45:01.489 --> 00:45:05.880
three or four weeks, Julian Assange will
have his extradition hearing. To give you
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:09.940
an indication of the size and scale of
this case, Larry loves extradition
00:45:09.940 --> 00:45:13.529
hearing, which was quite a big deal and
quite big. Took two and a half days.
00:45:13.529 --> 00:45:18.940
Julian's is going to be three or four
weeks. It will take place in Belmarsh
00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:23.792
Magistrates Court in a horrible part of
south east London, near the prison. It
00:45:23.792 --> 00:45:27.180
will probably take place in the courthouse
next door. They've got bigger courts, but
00:45:27.180 --> 00:45:34.779
it will be in that place in London.
Richter: So what can you do? OK. Do not be
00:45:34.779 --> 00:45:40.779
afraid to speak up, speak with people and
so on. And don't be afraid. We still live
00:45:40.779 --> 00:45:45.729
in a free country. Immunize yourself
against propaganda, which is really
00:45:45.729 --> 00:45:51.130
something that you should be beware. That
happened massively in the case of Julian.
00:45:51.130 --> 00:45:56.109
I think you know what I mean. And
understand what is at stake. This is a
00:45:56.109 --> 00:46:02.280
political persecution and it's about
everyone. And I want to quote Nils Melzer,
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:07.640
the U.N. special rapporteur on torture,
who I met recently and this is a very
00:46:07.640 --> 00:46:13.089
famous quote of him, that he was
continuously actually saying to people in
00:46:13.089 --> 00:46:18.369
power. "Assange has been systematically
slandered to divert attention, attention
00:46:18.369 --> 00:46:24.369
from the crimes, crimes he exposed once he
had been dehumanized through isolation,
00:46:24.369 --> 00:46:29.529
ridicule and shame. Just like the witches
we used to burn at the stake. It was easy
00:46:29.529 --> 00:46:34.269
to deprive him of his most fundamental
rights and without provoking public
00:46:34.269 --> 00:46:39.599
outrage worldwide." And I think this is
exactly what happened to him.
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.209
Avila: And this is a picture of really
courageous journalists from all over the
00:46:43.209 --> 00:46:48.600
world who stand up and say, like, stop
this prosecution. And they are a community
00:46:48.600 --> 00:46:55.779
Julian belongs to. But I have seen very
few real statements from this community.
00:46:55.779 --> 00:47:00.940
So our request tonight will be like,
please try to organize and try to do a
00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:05.880
similar effort that matters a lot. Now, we
will explain why.
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:09.900
Colvin: It's really important, because no
man is an island and the UK is not an
00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:14.119
island. Even after Brexit, right? The UK
government does care about its
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:18.369
international reputation, maybe unlike the
US. And the UK government needs to know
00:47:18.369 --> 00:47:22.719
that the world is watching. The world is
watching, they are hosting entirely
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:29.780
unnecessarily, the most ridiculous, the
most important press freedom truck case of
00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:32.799
a generation, completely unnecessarily.
They need to know that we're keeping a
00:47:32.799 --> 00:47:36.779
careful eye on it. Over the past few
months, we've been putting a lot of effort
00:47:36.779 --> 00:47:41.749
into ensuring that the extradition
hearing, the trial, if you like, in
00:47:41.749 --> 00:47:46.359
February is properly monitored. We have 25
elected parliamentarians and 12 European
00:47:46.359 --> 00:47:50.019
countries who have committed to be being
part of those monitoring efforts.
00:47:50.019 --> 00:47:54.920
Reporters sans Frontières are going to are
going to monitor. We have a whole group of
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.725
medics who are going to monitor the
extradition proceedings. And I think it
00:47:58.725 --> 00:48:02.469
would be good to have a similar effort
from this community, too, frankly.
00:48:02.469 --> 00:48:06.959
Avila: Especially because there are many
technical issues being discussed. Your
00:48:06.959 --> 00:48:11.509
opinion really matters for this trial, you
know. And he can't do it. He cannot do it
00:48:11.509 --> 00:48:16.319
from prison. He counts on you to help
lawyers, to help the press, to help
00:48:16.319 --> 00:48:21.549
everyone understand what is and what
isn't online publishing and online
00:48:21.549 --> 00:48:26.849
journalism. 21st Century journalism is at
stake on this case.
00:48:26.849 --> 00:48:30.859
Colvin: And your voice really matters
here. It really does. Yes.
00:48:30.859 --> 00:48:36.680
Avila: And, you know, he's our friend. And
it's not only someone we support, but he's
00:48:36.680 --> 00:48:42.150
our friend. And he likes to have the final
word, always. So we can now bring,
00:48:42.150 --> 00:48:49.309
bringing him back from the - eleven years
ago from a Congress like this one, to have
00:48:49.309 --> 00:48:56.349
the final word.
video sound fails
00:48:56.349 --> 00:49:09.809
Voice from the off: Oh, oh, oh. Hey, CIA?
Yeah. No, it's only a glitch. He's going
00:49:09.809 --> 00:49:23.019
to be frustrated, really angry. laughs
Richter: Try again?
00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:28.939
Avila: Is it ok?
Richter: Should we try?
00:49:28.939 --> 00:49:33.999
Avila: If not, we can... In the meantime,
we can read it out, we can read it out,
00:49:33.999 --> 00:49:42.249
so...
Colvin: "Justice doesn't just happen.
00:49:42.249 --> 00:49:46.279
Justice is forced by people coming
together and exercising strength, unity
00:49:46.279 --> 00:49:52.520
and intelligence." That's Julian at 25C3.
00:49:52.520 --> 00:50:09.882
applause
00:50:09.882 --> 00:50:12.220
Avila: Shall we try?
Richter: Should we try?
00:50:12.220 --> 00:50:18.319
Avila: Let's try one last time. No. Oh, my
God, silence.
00:50:18.319 --> 00:50:21.839
Colvin: He'll be annoyed by that. He would
be very annoyed. He's going to be really
00:50:21.839 --> 00:50:25.479
angry about that. All right.
Avila: Please do not tell him.
00:50:25.479 --> 00:50:28.479
Colvin: Yeah. Yeah, don't tell him. If you
don't tell him, he won't know.
00:50:28.479 --> 00:50:31.479
Avila: Yeah. So we are ready for some
questions. I think that we have very
00:50:31.479 --> 00:50:35.769
little time, but if we don't have enough
time, we will be hanging out that the
00:50:35.769 --> 00:50:41.989
teahouse and you can come to us and ask
questions and how to help.
00:50:41.989 --> 00:50:45.059
Herald Angel: Thank you so much.
00:50:45.059 --> 00:50:53.819
applause
00:50:53.819 --> 00:51:00.729
It was very insightful, moving and
incredibly important. So I remind everyone
00:51:00.729 --> 00:51:07.329
that we have six microphones. If you have
questions, line up behind them. And also
00:51:07.329 --> 00:51:12.860
our wonderful signal angels are going to
take some questions from the internet, one
00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:20.170
of which we're going to answer right now.
Signal Angel: Ok, there was the question
00:51:20.170 --> 00:51:24.219
that: Which reasons could there be to
explain the lack of fair and well balanced
00:51:24.219 --> 00:51:30.569
media reports in the Assange case?
Colvin: What are the reasons for the lack
00:51:30.569 --> 00:51:43.720
of support of media coverage? OK.
Avila: You want to answer that?
00:51:43.720 --> 00:51:48.630
Richter: You start and I will also help.
Mumbling
00:51:48.630 --> 00:51:53.769
Avila: Very quickly I will say that,
going back to this slide on who he
00:51:53.769 --> 00:51:58.599
exposed: the most powerful people. If
you have the most powerful people, like,
00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:06.209
in the world, private sector, public
sector, even hidden sector against you and
00:52:06.209 --> 00:52:13.789
with unlimited resources to take you down,
it's quite easy to kill positive stories. It
00:52:13.789 --> 00:52:18.660
is really hard in times that journalism is
on the resource and that the courageous
00:52:18.660 --> 00:52:23.789
journalists are not, like, really
rewarded. It is really difficult
00:52:23.789 --> 00:52:28.619
to navigate that ecosystem.
Richter: Yes. And I want to add that also
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:34.369
there is a reason. I think if journalism
today would be - do a proper job of
00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:39.670
investigating and exposing the powerful,
that it would not be necessary that
00:52:39.670 --> 00:52:45.799
WikiLeaks even exists. I think if they
would do their job as the fourth, so-
00:52:45.799 --> 00:52:52.569
called fourth estate in democracy, then
something like WikiLeaks wouldn't even be
00:52:52.569 --> 00:52:58.519
there. And I think that might be a reason
that I think that the - he not only
00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:01.859
exposed the powerful, but he also a
little bit exposed, of course, his
00:53:01.859 --> 00:53:05.900
colleagues at the so-called established
press. And I think that every
00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:11.269
reason that he gave, and there were some
because he's not perfect, Julian Assange
00:53:11.269 --> 00:53:16.759
is only human, and he did make mistakes
like everybody of us. And I could say, OK,
00:53:16.759 --> 00:53:22.119
take the first stone and throw it. But I
think that, of course, bad news is always
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:27.910
good news. And let's say many people who
knew him said, let's say, negative things
00:53:27.910 --> 00:53:32.640
that the press picked up. But, like, when
I would say to press - or I also know
00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:36.579
him, I think he's a decent guy. Nobody
wants to report that because it's boring
00:53:36.579 --> 00:53:39.859
and not interesting. So, yeah. There are
many reasons for that, I think.
00:53:39.859 --> 00:53:42.410
Colvin: I'm going to add that, I mean, the
fact that there are 10 years of history
00:53:42.410 --> 00:53:46.131
here definitely makes a difference. But
look, I speak to a lot of journalists and
00:53:46.131 --> 00:53:52.279
I speak to a lot of journalists about this
case in the UK and particularly as it's
00:53:52.279 --> 00:53:57.939
become more obvious that Julian is not
doing very well, that he's very unwell. I
00:53:57.939 --> 00:54:02.399
think people are shocked. And I can you
know. People are frightened about it. They
00:54:02.399 --> 00:54:06.519
might not be talking about it very much at
the moment, but they will. It is what is
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:09.999
changing around for sure.
Richter: Yes. And then, speaking of being
00:54:09.999 --> 00:54:13.499
frightened, also, don't underestimate that
people might be afraid.
00:54:13.499 --> 00:54:18.390
Avila: And also, I know that there are
many journalists here tonight. This is
00:54:18.390 --> 00:54:23.259
your opportunity to change the narrative
because you are next if you stay silent.
00:54:23.259 --> 00:54:29.749
Herald: Thank you. We're going to take the
next question from a man who's wearing a
00:54:29.749 --> 00:54:35.699
Julian Assange mask. Gathering worth the
effort and microphone 2 please.
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:42.439
M2: Oh, hi. I want to thank you so
much for your talk. When we are all facing
00:54:42.439 --> 00:54:47.989
this situation of asking ourselves what we
can do, we should take inspiration from
00:54:47.989 --> 00:54:54.079
what you just said and what you just did.
It is not just about Julian. It is about
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:57.839
every one of us here.
Herald: This is wonderful, but that is not
00:54:57.839 --> 00:54:59.839
a question.
M2: No, but I'm getting there.
00:54:59.839 --> 00:55:04.529
Herald: Can you get there faster?
M2: It's about historical perspective on
00:55:04.529 --> 00:55:10.240
all these aspects about war, about power,
about what we can do, about what the
00:55:10.240 --> 00:55:15.880
internet is about to question power. It is
about also maybe admitting -
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:21.039
Herald: Maybe much faster?
M2: much faster. It is not perfect. You may
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:25.930
have said stupid things on Twitter like we
all did. And like anyone would do after
00:55:25.930 --> 00:55:30.880
seven years in detention.
Yet he's one of us. So when asking
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:34.870
ourselves what to do. It's a modest
contribution from the internet. There is a
00:55:34.870 --> 00:55:39.289
wiki that is online for a few days now on
these stickers that you
00:55:39.289 --> 00:55:47.299
Herald: okay. We're going to take an
actual question. I am really sorry, but.
00:55:47.299 --> 00:55:52.079
Microphone 1, please. applause
Richter: Okay, still thank you.
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:58.689
M1: I thank you for the inspiring talk, so
I am a Pakistani journalist I now live in
00:55:58.689 --> 00:56:05.599
exile in Berlin. But what the story of
Assange and what we just saw this. You
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:09.359
know, everything that happened and the
perpetrators that even put the
00:56:09.359 --> 00:56:15.029
authoritarian regimes and their leaders in
shame, especially how the system of asylum
00:56:15.029 --> 00:56:19.729
has been breached. That also scares me. I
have actually called because I'm scared.
00:56:19.729 --> 00:56:23.509
But my question is, could you as
journalists maybe shed some light on the
00:56:23.509 --> 00:56:27.429
on the chilling effect for journalists? I
mean, I can only imagine that there might
00:56:27.429 --> 00:56:31.759
be more leaks in line that would have
happened, but maybe has not happened
00:56:31.759 --> 00:56:36.910
because the journalists are also now self
censoring. So what would you advise to
00:56:36.910 --> 00:56:43.339
such journalists? Thank you.
Richter: Well, that is is really exactly a
00:56:43.339 --> 00:56:48.289
very tough question. And this is exactly
one of the dangers that we are pointing to
00:56:48.289 --> 00:56:53.440
you know, that people might just not
expose it. And like I said, people are
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:58.824
starting to get afraid. What can we say to
them? Well, ...
00:56:58.824 --> 00:57:00.649
Avila: I have something
00:57:00.649 --> 00:57:04.570
and I think that Julian has something to
say, this is endless with justice, with as
00:57:04.570 --> 00:57:10.380
a community, with strength, unity and
indulgence. I mean, look at the talent in
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:17.949
this room. Look, it's not necessarily just
the brilliance of one whistleblower or one
00:57:17.949 --> 00:57:23.979
person. It's the ecosystem that we need to
create to create resilient media. And we
00:57:23.979 --> 00:57:29.630
need a resilient media for democracy to
work. And if it cannot happen, even here
00:57:29.630 --> 00:57:33.689
in Germany, with all the resources and
with all the brilliant minds, where is it
00:57:33.689 --> 00:57:39.249
going to happen? So I think that we cannot
stop innovating and we need to push for
00:57:39.249 --> 00:57:48.199
the next wave of innovations for the
journalism that we've served these needs
00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:52.739
in our times. And that's why this case
matters a lot, because it's punishing
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:57.380
these innovations that these two
redistributed power among people. Yeah.
00:57:57.380 --> 00:58:01.069
There also needs to be a recognition. A
bit of solidarity is necessary here,
00:58:01.069 --> 00:58:06.359
because this isn't just about Julian. As
Renata mentioned briefly, things in
00:58:06.359 --> 00:58:10.410
Australia have gone to pop since Julian
was arrested. And more than that, one of
00:58:10.410 --> 00:58:14.969
the slides I flicked over was the
indictment of a drone with alleged drone
00:58:14.969 --> 00:58:19.569
whistleblower, Daniel Hale. In Daniel Hale
the count - one of Daniel Hale's
00:58:19.569 --> 00:58:24.309
indictment accuses him of unlawfully
releasing information. About unlawfully
00:58:24.309 --> 00:58:29.449
releasing information to a journalist who
he knew would have used it unlawfully. So
00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:34.219
this is like the second time in a US
indictment we have an accusation of a
00:58:34.219 --> 00:58:39.589
publisher, a journalist acting unlawfully
by publishing true information in the
00:58:39.589 --> 00:58:46.200
public interest. We need to be aware and
we need to raise the alarm, because this
00:58:46.200 --> 00:58:51.169
isn't just about Julian. The threat is
very real and it's very broad.
00:58:51.169 --> 00:59:01.259
Herald: Thank you. We have time for one
last question and we're going to ask our
00:59:01.259 --> 00:59:04.989
signal angels again.
Signal Angel: So there was the question
00:59:04.989 --> 00:59:10.329
how can we help and support Manning,
Assange and Snowden?
00:59:10.329 --> 00:59:18.970
Richter: Well, like we just said also, I think
it's very important to show solidarity in
00:59:18.970 --> 00:59:26.890
different ways by raising your voice.
Well, even supporting with donation, it's
00:59:26.890 --> 00:59:30.890
always good. It's good for Manning. It's
good for everyone. I think Courage
00:59:30.890 --> 00:59:36.420
Foundation is someone who's supporting
everyone, including Jeremy Hammond and
00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:41.450
Chelsea Manning, who are not so much in
the focus maybe like Julian, but also for
00:59:41.450 --> 00:59:46.739
Julian. I think that his trial will cost -
- my God - hundreds of thousands of
00:59:46.739 --> 00:59:53.829
pounds. Let's hope that the pound
goes down after Brexit. But, OK. No. I
00:59:53.829 --> 00:59:59.089
mean, and I think speaking up and like
Renata also said, to have the feeling that
00:59:59.089 --> 01:00:03.650
we are many and I think exactly this thing
that he said. People coming together and
01:00:03.650 --> 01:00:11.929
sharing and kind of be brave like "Courage
is contagious." is one of my favorite quotes
01:00:11.929 --> 01:00:19.059
of him. And so I think I take a stand.
Have an attitude and do as much as you can
01:00:19.059 --> 01:00:24.499
in your possibilities, which which are
not so little, I think. And I think it is
01:00:24.499 --> 01:00:28.790
for the good of everyone, not only the
names, people who are in danger now, but
01:00:28.790 --> 01:00:36.089
for all of our freedom. Colvin: Resist
practically. There's a lot to do and
01:00:36.089 --> 01:00:41.579
there's a lot of work to go round or as
we've mentioned in the talk, organizing in
01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:45.829
the communities you're part of. His work
is very important here in Germany. To take
01:00:45.829 --> 01:00:49.299
an example, we've had parliamentarians
coming forward. We've also had the
01:00:49.299 --> 01:00:53.409
journalists' union. We've also had
collections of lawyers. All of this is
01:00:53.409 --> 01:00:55.569
really important. And it makes a
difference to the work that's being done
01:00:55.569 --> 01:01:00.450
in the U.K. There are lots of different
organizations and groups doing work on
01:01:00.450 --> 01:01:05.230
this case and it's all really valuable.
Contribute as you will, find a group that
01:01:05.230 --> 01:01:08.289
you think is doing is doing good work.
Either work that you think will make a
01:01:08.289 --> 01:01:13.530
difference or that accords with your own
ideological perspective and support them.
01:01:13.530 --> 01:01:20.760
There's a lot of people doing good work
here. I know one of the saving graces of
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:24.869
what has been quite a depressing year is
meeting so many people who were doing
01:01:24.869 --> 01:01:29.869
important work on this most dire of
issues. Avila: And we have a lot of faith on you
01:01:29.869 --> 01:01:35.730
as a community, to be honest. We count on
you and this community do not leave behind
01:01:35.730 --> 01:01:41.939
people belonging here. And I think that if
we can see - I think that Julian will be
01:01:41.939 --> 01:01:46.640
like incredibly thrilled and Chelsea will
be like super happy to know that there's
01:01:46.640 --> 01:01:52.479
organized efforts to follow this case
closely and to have delegations present
01:01:52.479 --> 01:01:58.219
during the hearings. And if they know that
you are there, even symbolically there,
01:01:58.219 --> 01:02:04.479
they will feel so much better because more
and more to any community, Snowden,
01:02:04.479 --> 01:02:10.529
Chelsea, Julian really love this. Love,
admire and count on this community. So
01:02:10.529 --> 01:02:15.049
please be there, and find us later, we
will explain the more detailed ways to
01:02:15.049 --> 01:02:19.839
help. And thank you so much for attending
this talk. Like, really, it means a lot.
01:02:19.839 --> 01:02:23.809
It means a lot to have a full room. And I
know that there's many people watching as
01:02:23.809 --> 01:02:30.299
well and will watch this again. Please
continue following this case. We will
01:02:30.299 --> 01:02:34.999
prepare all the information that you need.
But what you - we need you to activate
01:02:34.999 --> 01:02:38.639
it and to translate it into action. Thank
you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:40.115
applause
01:02:40.115 --> 01:02:42.192
Herald: Thank you for this.
01:02:42.192 --> 01:02:45.139
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01:02:45.139 --> 01:03:08.000
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