WEBVTT

00:00:04.568 --> 00:00:06.827
[Hasan Ilyas] In the name of Allah, the
most Gracious, the most Merciful!

00:00:06.827 --> 00:00:10.287
Assalamu Alaikum. We are coming to you 
directly from Ghamidi Center, Dallas

00:00:10.287 --> 00:00:13.270
with this weekly question-answer session 
with Ghamidi Sahab.

00:00:13.270 --> 00:00:15.177
Let us begin…
Ghamidi Sahab, thanks a lot for your time.

00:00:15.177 --> 00:00:19.527
The chain of our conversation continues 
about your viewpoint of the conflict

00:00:19.527 --> 00:00:22.407
between Syedna Ali (ra) and 
Ameer Muawiya (ra).

00:00:22.407 --> 00:00:24.647
Today, this is the fifteenth episode 
of the series.

00:00:24.647 --> 00:00:28.647
I am presenting to you, one by one, the 
questions regarding certain doubts and

00:00:28.647 --> 00:00:31.307
objections that people have raised
about your discourse.

00:00:31.307 --> 00:00:34.977
In our last conversation, we comprehended 
certain important points.

00:00:34.977 --> 00:00:37.817
And I will start by linking up our today’s
conversation to the last conversation.

00:00:37.817 --> 00:00:42.567
While being a governor of a province, 
Syedna Muawiya (ra) demanded retaliation

00:00:42.567 --> 00:00:46.157
from Syedna Ali (ra) against the murderers
of Uthman (ra).

00:00:46.157 --> 00:00:50.277
Does this not imply that he considered Ali
(ra) to be the ruler of the Muslim nation

00:00:50.277 --> 00:00:53.880
and that he considered his government to 
be an established political fact since

00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:55.957
he is making the demand of Ali (ra) 
to punish the murderers?

00:00:55.957 --> 00:00:58.847
Had Muawiya (ra) not made the demand, 
it could have been said that Ali’s (ra)

00:00:58.847 --> 00:01:01.152
government had not been fully established 
and that

00:01:01.152 --> 00:01:02.980
it was a chaotic situation all around.

00:01:02.980 --> 00:01:06.413
However, the moment Muawiya (ra) put 
forth his demand it becomes obvious that

00:01:06.413 --> 00:01:09.950
he accepts Ali (ra) as the ruler and is 
demanding of him to ‘retaliate’ (qisas)

00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:13.013
against Uthman’s (ra) murderers which only
the ruler of the Muslims could do?

00:01:13.513 --> 00:01:17.513
[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Muawiya (ra) is 
making this demand on the basis

00:01:17.513 --> 00:01:21.430
of Ali’s (ra) claim that his government 
has become established.

00:01:22.188 --> 00:01:27.178
And if it is claimed that the government 
has been (firmly) established,

00:01:27.178 --> 00:01:30.538
one of its self-evident proofs would be to
mete out the

00:01:30.538 --> 00:01:32.178
just punishment to the criminals.’

00:01:32.178 --> 00:01:36.398
‘Otherwise, we have no personal animosity 
against you.’

00:01:37.250 --> 00:01:39.437
‘We shall accept your government.’

00:01:40.960 --> 00:01:45.520
It is the approach that if a government is
established and

00:01:45.520 --> 00:01:49.706
you are hesitant about its establishment 
or you have some objections regarding it.

00:01:49.976 --> 00:01:53.976
In that case, how are you manifesting 
your objection?

00:01:54.166 --> 00:01:57.186
In other words, do you object to the 
person of the ruler?

00:01:57.427 --> 00:01:59.717
If you object to the person of the ruler.

00:01:59.717 --> 00:02:03.717
For instance, a number of people object to
many of later rulers as

00:02:03.717 --> 00:02:09.927
individual persons as well: it is believed
that a certain person was not fit to rule

00:02:09.927 --> 00:02:17.447
because of his personality, or character, 
or his lack of political acumen, etc.

00:02:18.046 --> 00:02:20.786
In those cases, it is the opposition to 
the person of the ruler.

00:02:20.786 --> 00:02:25.766
I have stated this earlier as well that 
whether it was Muawiya (ra), or

00:02:25.766 --> 00:02:31.146
Syeda Aisha (ra) or Syedna Talha (ra), or 
Zubair (ra), none of them argued that

00:02:31.146 --> 00:02:34.746
Syedna Ali (ra) was not fit to be 
the Caliph of the Muslims.

00:02:34.746 --> 00:02:38.163
Instead, they argue that you are of course
eligible to be the caliph and

00:02:38.163 --> 00:02:40.143
we have no objections to your person.

00:02:40.143 --> 00:02:45.393
However, from among necessary conditions 
for the establishment of a government,

00:02:45.393 --> 00:02:48.853
we are demanding of you that you 
fulfill one important condition.

00:02:48.853 --> 00:02:51.203
Why are governments established at all?

00:02:51.203 --> 00:02:55.763
They are established to curb the abuse 
of power.

00:02:56.238 --> 00:03:00.238
It is the fundamental objective of the 
establishment of government to be

00:03:00.238 --> 00:03:02.599
in a position to punish the criminals.

00:03:02.994 --> 00:03:06.994
However, if a government is not in a 
position to punish the criminals

00:03:06.994 --> 00:03:10.514
although, you can claim that it is in the 
process of establishing itself,

00:03:10.700 --> 00:03:14.700
but you cannot say it has been fully 
established as a fiat accompli.

00:03:14.700 --> 00:03:18.133
Thus, they put forward their case with 
the same reasoning.

00:03:18.310 --> 00:03:22.310
Even today, if a situation of emergency 
erupts and someone takes over

00:03:22.310 --> 00:03:27.130
the government, then we too shall demand 
of them to prove their fitness

00:03:27.130 --> 00:03:34.467
for legislation, application of the law, 
and for the re-establishment of order.

00:03:34.855 --> 00:03:38.855
And only then would the government would 
be accepted – if only in de facto terms.

00:03:39.207 --> 00:03:41.247
So, they are basically making this case.

00:03:41.247 --> 00:03:42.958
How does it imply that they accepted

00:03:42.958 --> 00:03:45.098
Ali’s (ra) government as an established 
political fact?

00:03:45.098 --> 00:03:47.908
If indeed Muawiya (ra) had accepted 
Ali’s (ra) government,

00:03:47.908 --> 00:03:54.708
then his first task would have 
been to give up his position

00:03:54.708 --> 00:04:00.419
as the governor of Syria, as Ali (ra) 
had instructed him to do.

00:04:00.419 --> 00:04:02.560
He did no such thing!

00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:06.560
Instead, positioning himself as the 
governor of Levant, he asked Ali (ra),

00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.560
who had assumed the caliphal office, the 
proof that

00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.356
his power was actually established. 
[Ilyas] Alright…

00:04:13.636 --> 00:04:18.376
Let us move the conversation forward, 
Ghamidi Sahab.

00:04:18.376 --> 00:04:21.796
It is clear that Muawiya’s (ra) demand did
not begin after

00:04:21.796 --> 00:04:23.410
accepting Ali’s (ra) government;

00:04:23.410 --> 00:04:27.740
In fact, the demand is the condition for 
the acceptance of government:

00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:29.960
'Only after the fulfillment of this 
condition would

00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:31.690
the other matters be settled.’

00:04:31.690 --> 00:04:35.210
However, the matter was not settled and 
the dispute reached into the battlefield.

00:04:35.210 --> 00:04:39.210
As the dispute reached the battlefield, 
and this is also a generally accepted

00:04:39.210 --> 00:04:43.210
historical fact, that those demanding 
retaliation against the

00:04:43.210 --> 00:04:47.330
murderers of Uthman (ra) and the removal 
from office of people who had surrounded

00:04:47.330 --> 00:04:49.240
Syedna Ali, (ra),
they lost in the battlefield.

00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:53.960
You had described the principle in detail 
that whenever something like this happens.

00:04:53.960 --> 00:04:57.960
And it proves that Ali’s (ra) government 
had become established.

00:04:58.555 --> 00:05:03.233
In other words, it existed as a de facto 
reality and that is how he won the war.

00:05:03.535 --> 00:05:07.720
After all this, the matter should have 
moved toward settlement…

00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:10.602
The results of the battlefield went in 
favor of Ali (ra).

00:05:11.200 --> 00:05:15.200
Thus, once the battlefield decided the 
matter in Ali’s (ra) favor,

00:05:15.200 --> 00:05:18.870
what excuse was left for Muawiya (ra) to
still not accept the government

00:05:18.870 --> 00:05:21.428
as a de facto reality? 
[Ghamidi] What was the verdict exactly?

00:05:21.428 --> 00:05:26.418
The verdict was this: Ali (ra) himself 
accepted to appoint arbiters to decide

00:05:26.418 --> 00:05:30.368
the legality or illegality of his 
government.

00:05:31.324 --> 00:05:38.874
It was after the Battle of Siffin that 
the arbiters were appointed.

00:05:38.874 --> 00:05:41.244
What exactly do you accept when you 
accept arbitration?

00:05:41.244 --> 00:05:42.734
Have you ever reflected on this point?

00:05:42.734 --> 00:05:46.454
It means that you have accepted that 
you no longer insist on taking

00:05:46.454 --> 00:05:48.314
your government as a de facto reality.

00:05:48.314 --> 00:05:51.354
Instead, the verdict of whether or not to 
accept the government

00:05:51.354 --> 00:05:53.840
shall be entrusted to certain arbiters.

00:05:53.840 --> 00:05:56.294
Therefore, two people were nominated to 
be the arbiters in the dispute.

00:05:56.294 --> 00:05:58.342
The clauses of arbitration were drawn up.

00:05:58.342 --> 00:06:02.702
Abu Musa Ashari (ra) was nominated from 
Ali’s (ra) side

00:06:02.702 --> 00:06:07.233
and Amr bin al ‘As (ra)
was nominated from Muawiya’s (ra) side.

00:06:07.690 --> 00:06:11.690
Both were allowed a fixed time period 
which spanned across many months.

00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:16.100
And, then, it was specified that they 
would proclaim their verdict in front

00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.100
of four hundred people and in that 
assembly they would give their verdict

00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:26.648
about the rights and wrongs of the dispute
and how it should be resolved!

00:06:26.648 --> 00:06:29.985
Therefore, the moment you accept 
arbitration,

00:06:29.985 --> 00:06:36.715
the legitimacy of your government becomes
debatable as a result of your admission.

00:06:37.545 --> 00:06:41.270
If, however, a different scenario would 
have emerged:

00:06:41.270 --> 00:06:43.807
Muawiya’s (ra) side lost on the 
battlefield, his men ran away,

00:06:43.807 --> 00:06:47.807
Ali’s (ra) forces captured his territory, 
and he was able to establish

00:06:47.807 --> 00:06:50.167
the writ of his government throughout 
the empire.

00:06:50.167 --> 00:06:52.691
In that case, the matter would have 
been decisively settled.

00:06:52.691 --> 00:06:54.908
So, what was the upshot of the 
Battle of Siffin?

00:06:54.908 --> 00:06:58.270
And it should also be kept in mind, in the
Battle of Siffin,

00:06:58.270 --> 00:07:01.257
the opposing side was not fighting to 
overtake Ali’s (ra) government.

00:07:01.257 --> 00:07:05.448
Instead, it was Ali’s (ra) position – and 
he was absolutely sincere in his position

00:07:05.448 --> 00:07:09.707
that his government had been legitimately 
established and he wanted to enforce

00:07:09.707 --> 00:07:12.297
the writ of his government.

00:07:12.371 --> 00:07:18.100
For this reason, he changed the governors 
of the provinces too and when Muawiya (ra)

00:07:18.100 --> 00:07:22.100
refused to comply with his order, it was 
Ali (ra)

00:07:22.100 --> 00:07:26.100
who initiated the hostilities in Siffin.

00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:31.035
And because of this attack, at one point, 
the opposing side proposed this:

00:07:31.035 --> 00:07:36.715
people, including the Companions, are 
being martyred in large numbers

00:07:36.715 --> 00:07:42.675
and it would only perpetuate the civil 
war; instead, is it not better to settle

00:07:42.675 --> 00:07:46.675
this dispute by making the Quran the 
final arbiter?

00:07:46.844 --> 00:07:50.274
When this proposal was put forward from 
the opposing side,

00:07:50.274 --> 00:07:52.414
Ali (ra), himself, accepted it.

00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:58.470
People neglect this point that when a 
ruler accepts arbitration upon whether

00:07:58.470 --> 00:08:03.560
or not his government is a de facto 
political fact and whether the steps

00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.878
he took were legitimate or not, and now
arbitrators will make a ruling on it,

00:08:07.878 --> 00:08:11.218
you can imagine the situation.

00:08:11.218 --> 00:08:14.778
So, the matter is not as simple 
as it seems.

00:08:14.778 --> 00:08:16.518
[Ilyas] Alright. 
Let us move ahead, Ghamidi Sahab!

00:08:16.518 --> 00:08:20.518
A new point of view has emerged in 
the last few days…

00:08:20.695 --> 00:08:24.695
It has been stated that the way you 
portray the matter that it pertains

00:08:24.695 --> 00:08:28.695
to real historical events, wherein the 
partisans had their principled positions

00:08:28.695 --> 00:08:31.795
and both were sincerely taking certain 
practical measures based

00:08:31.795 --> 00:08:33.325
on those principled positions.

00:08:33.325 --> 00:08:37.325
Instead, why can’t we say that the large 
group of the companions

00:08:37.325 --> 00:08:42.055
who supported Muawiya, along with the 
suggestions he might have gotten

00:08:42.055 --> 00:08:47.065
from the earlier caliphs, combined to 
deliberately keep the Hashemites,

00:08:47.065 --> 00:08:53.455
i.e., the family of the Prophet (pbuh), 
away from power?

00:08:53.843 --> 00:08:57.843
It is because once they had gained 
political power, then,

00:08:57.843 --> 00:09:01.843
because of their status in the eyes of 
the people due to their descent

00:09:01.843 --> 00:09:05.283
from the Prophet (pbuh), it would have 
been difficult to wrest it back.

00:09:05.283 --> 00:09:09.283
Therefore, these factors were at work 
in Muawiya’s (ra) actions and

00:09:09.283 --> 00:09:12.243
in the struggle to seek tribal supremacy
among the Umayyads.

00:09:12.243 --> 00:09:13.773
How do you see this line of thinking?

00:09:13.773 --> 00:09:16.653
[Ghamidi] First, you have to tell me 
when did this “conspiracy”

00:09:16.653 --> 00:09:19.003
to keep the Hashemites out of power begin?

00:09:19.003 --> 00:09:21.824
Did it begin with Abu Bakr’s (ra) 
election as the Caliph?

00:09:21.824 --> 00:09:28.335
Abu Bakr (ra) was the most exalted 
companion in the whole umma.

00:09:28.785 --> 00:09:32.785
No person could have the temerity to 
claim that in Abu Bakr (ra)

00:09:32.785 --> 00:09:38.195
such a man was elected as the Caliph 
who was not eligible for it.

00:09:38.363 --> 00:09:42.363
Not only did all the companions assent 
to the election,

00:09:42.363 --> 00:09:46.363
a person like Omar (ra) stated that he 
proposed the same of such a personality

00:09:46.363 --> 00:09:50.363
that tukta’ul aana qi’lay (people’s necks 
would bow in front of him).

00:09:50.363 --> 00:09:53.823
In fact, people, subsequently, accepted 
him in the same station.

00:09:53.823 --> 00:09:57.823
And the way Abu Bakr (ra) ruled also 
proved his illustriousness.

00:09:57.823 --> 00:10:01.823
Therefore, nobody can be bold enough to 
claim any of this about Abu Bakr (ra).

00:10:01.823 --> 00:10:05.823
I have already described the election of 
Omar (ra) that how Abu Bakr (ra)

00:10:05.823 --> 00:10:09.823
invited the entire leadership of the 
Quraish, put forth his proposal to them,

00:10:09.823 --> 00:10:13.823
listened to the opinions and suggestions 
of every single one of them,

00:10:13.823 --> 00:10:16.223
and replied to the objections that were 
raised.

00:10:16.223 --> 00:10:18.187
Only then the final decision was made.

00:10:18.187 --> 00:10:21.087
In this case as well, no such thing was 
under discussion from which

00:10:21.087 --> 00:10:23.527
one could conclude a deliberate attempt 
to exclude the Hashemites from power.

00:10:23.527 --> 00:10:26.627
At the most, you could say, at the time 
of Uthman’s (ra) election,

00:10:26.627 --> 00:10:30.037
when Abdul Rahman bin Awf (ra) was 
given the authority to choose,

00:10:30.037 --> 00:10:32.617
he might have kept these things in view.

00:10:32.617 --> 00:10:36.617
However, it does not make any difference 
because whenever you form an opinion

00:10:36.617 --> 00:10:39.357
about anyone at all, you take dozens 
of factors into consideration.

00:10:39.357 --> 00:10:42.657
So, all these hypotheses can be discussed 
only with reference to the election

00:10:42.657 --> 00:10:44.077
of the first three caliphs.

00:10:44.077 --> 00:10:45.827
And they would be assessed in accordance 
with the evidence pertaining

00:10:45.827 --> 00:10:46.964
to the three occasions.

00:10:46.964 --> 00:10:50.734
In Muawiya’s (ra) case, what right do 
we have to speculate about

00:10:50.734 --> 00:10:54.734
a different opinion than his stated 
position that is in front of us?

00:10:54.853 --> 00:11:00.296
Did he ever claim that they have decided 
to keep the Hashemites out of power?

00:11:01.055 --> 00:11:05.055
A power struggle was going on.
There is no doubt about it.

00:11:05.273 --> 00:11:09.273
In this backdrop, the establishment of 
Ali’s (ra) government was announced.

00:11:09.570 --> 00:11:13.140
And a lot of people accepted the new 
government.

00:11:13.382 --> 00:11:17.382
On the back of a large force, Ali (ra) 
managed to consolidate his power

00:11:17.382 --> 00:11:21.382
over a large territorial span. 
Muawiya (ra) put forward a demand.

00:11:21.382 --> 00:11:25.369
And the Mother of the Believers, Syeda 
Aisha (ra) too pressed the same demand.

00:11:25.369 --> 00:11:27.397
She is not an ordinary woman.

00:11:27.397 --> 00:11:31.397
It was an extraordinary decision on part 
of Aisha (ra),

00:11:31.397 --> 00:11:34.717
keeping in view her juristic mind, her
judgments,

00:11:34.717 --> 00:11:37.427
and her insight in politics and strategy.

00:11:37.427 --> 00:11:43.537
And two of the most prominent people 
from the council that elected Ali (ra),

00:11:43.537 --> 00:11:48.347
i.e., Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra), also 
joined her in her opposition to Ali (ra).

00:11:48.666 --> 00:11:52.656
So, did all these people come together to 
conspire

00:11:52.656 --> 00:11:55.222
to keep the Hashemites out of power?

00:11:55.222 --> 00:11:58.892
However, whenever it comes to the 
point of election and

00:11:58.892 --> 00:12:02.882
when we vote in somebody’s favor, we 
take dozens of factors into consideration.

00:12:02.882 --> 00:12:06.512
Let me give you a fresh example of this 
phenomenon.

00:12:06.512 --> 00:12:09.367
Say, elections are going on in our 
country.

00:12:09.367 --> 00:12:11.827
A number of political parties operate 
in the country.

00:12:11.827 --> 00:12:15.827
In this backdrop, there is a person who 
maintains,

00:12:15.827 --> 00:12:21.397
irrespective of his other preferences, 
he won’t vote for certain parties because,

00:12:21.397 --> 00:12:24.147
according to him, they have become 
hereditary parties.

00:12:24.147 --> 00:12:26.487
Thus, it can be one important factor 
determining one’s political preference.

00:12:26.487 --> 00:12:28.897
So, it is possible that some people would 
have considered

00:12:28.897 --> 00:12:30.167
this factor back then as well.

00:12:30.167 --> 00:12:32.317
However, to consider that it was the 
only determining factor and

00:12:32.317 --> 00:12:34.847
the sole basis of everything that 
happened; that everyone came together

00:12:34.847 --> 00:12:37.397
and decided to keep the Hashemites 
out; and that it was a planned conspiracy

00:12:37.397 --> 00:12:38.797
from the very beginning; etc.

00:12:38.797 --> 00:12:41.997
In my opinion, to make such a far-reaching
claim,

00:12:41.997 --> 00:12:45.577
one needs a rather staggering amount 
of evidence than is generally cited.

00:12:45.577 --> 00:12:47.357
[Ilyas] Alright. 
Moving forward, Ghamidi Sahab.

00:12:47.357 --> 00:12:51.357
The most important point of our entire 
conversation,

00:12:51.357 --> 00:12:55.357
the point around which all our explanation
and

00:12:55.357 --> 00:12:59.357
all the positions of the partisans revolve
and the point that affords

00:12:59.357 --> 00:13:02.687
all sides some benefit of doubt and that is
the storm that manifested itself

00:13:02.687 --> 00:13:04.947
in the shape of Uthman’s (ra) murder.

00:13:04.947 --> 00:13:10.687
The question arises in everyone’s mind, 
whoever has heard your position

00:13:10.687 --> 00:13:12.547
in these fifteen episodes, is this:

00:13:12.547 --> 00:13:19.147
One party is demanding retaliation against
the murderers of Uthman (ra).

00:13:19.437 --> 00:13:23.437
However, when the party making the 
demand comes to power…

00:13:23.437 --> 00:13:27.437
Muawiya (ra) ruled for nineteen years 
and the reason for his coming to power

00:13:27.437 --> 00:13:30.107
was the dispute around Uthman’s (ra) 
murder.

00:13:30.107 --> 00:13:37.867
So, if it was not the desire for power and
become the ruler of the empire,

00:13:37.867 --> 00:13:41.053
then what became of the real reason 
for coming to power?

00:13:41.053 --> 00:13:43.633
In other words, what became of Uthman’s
(ra) murderers in Muawiya’s (ra) reign?

00:13:43.633 --> 00:13:46.253
Muawiya (ra) reigned for 19 years 
without sharing power with anyone.

00:13:46.253 --> 00:13:49.943
What did he do about the event that led 
to everything:

00:13:49.943 --> 00:13:53.203
the Battle of the Camel, the Battle of 
Siffin, and the endless bloodshed

00:13:53.203 --> 00:13:54.515
within the Muslim community?

00:13:54.515 --> 00:13:57.614
[Ghamidi] There were two types of 
people among Uthman’s (ra) murderers.

00:13:57.614 --> 00:14:00.094
You are familiar, of course, that the 
incident took the shape of a riot.

00:14:00.094 --> 00:14:01.894
A mob fell upon the city.

00:14:01.894 --> 00:14:08.994
And it was not a couple of men who broke 
into Uthman’s (ra) house; it was a mob.

00:14:08.994 --> 00:14:13.654
There are two salient names when 
it comes to who, from the mob,

00:14:13.654 --> 00:14:17.254
laid their hands upon and murdered 
Uthman (ra).

00:14:17.782 --> 00:14:20.940
One is Muhammad bin Abi Bakr.

00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:27.293
He was the Abu Bakr’s (ra) son and 
was brought up by Syedna Ali (ra) himself.

00:14:28.029 --> 00:14:33.885
After Abu Bakr’s (ra) death, Ali (ra) 
had married his widow.

00:14:33.885 --> 00:14:37.315
So, Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was brought 
up in Syedna Ali’s (ra) household.

00:14:37.315 --> 00:14:40.645
Second was Malik al-Ashtar.

00:14:40.645 --> 00:14:47.255
Both these men could be pointed out 
as Uthman’s murderers!

00:14:47.764 --> 00:14:51.324
There would, of course, have been a 
trial first and only then action

00:14:51.324 --> 00:14:53.824
could be taken against them. 
These were the two people.

00:14:53.824 --> 00:14:56.694
How conspicuous were these two 
people as Uthman’s murderers?

00:14:56.694 --> 00:14:59.904
You can get a sense of this from that fact
that our venerated scholar,

00:14:59.904 --> 00:15:03.904
Maulana Syed Abul Alaa Maududi, who, 
as compared to mine,

00:15:03.904 --> 00:15:07.904
was making a different case altogether.

00:15:07.904 --> 00:15:11.904
He too was forced to remark: ‘I can 
explain and justify every action

00:15:11.904 --> 00:15:15.904
taken by Ali (ra), except the position 
he bestowed upon the two.’

00:15:15.904 --> 00:15:20.841
Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was appointed as 
the governor of Egypt later on.

00:15:20.841 --> 00:15:22.884
[Ilyas] It happened after Uthman’s (ra) 
murder?

00:15:22.884 --> 00:15:26.884
[Ghamidi] Of course. After Uthman’s (ra) 
murder, when Ali (ra) formed his government.

00:15:26.884 --> 00:15:29.554
He would appoint governors after he has 
formed the government, right?

00:15:29.554 --> 00:15:31.304
They were so conspicuous.

00:15:31.304 --> 00:15:33.774
And both of them were dead when 
Muawiya (ra) became the sole ruler.

00:15:33.774 --> 00:15:34.964
Now, we are left with others.

00:15:34.964 --> 00:15:38.964
The problem was that there was no 
certainty who among the other people

00:15:38.964 --> 00:15:42.964
was involved in the murder. 
It was an open question.

00:15:42.964 --> 00:15:46.294
In fact, if you read the history, you would
come to know whenever

00:15:46.294 --> 00:15:51.114
it was found out that someone was involved
in the murder, he was brought to justice.

00:15:51.762 --> 00:15:55.762
You will find all the details of these 
events in a number of historical tracts.

00:15:55.965 --> 00:15:59.965
However, two conspicuous perpetrators 
who should have been apprehended

00:15:59.965 --> 00:16:04.735
and who were closest to Ali (ra) at the 
time, both those men were dead

00:16:04.735 --> 00:16:06.955
by the time Muawiya came to power.

00:16:06.955 --> 00:16:13.175
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you give a rational
explanation of every partisan’s position

00:16:13.175 --> 00:16:16.245
based on the available evidence.

00:16:17.270 --> 00:16:21.270
I am sure the question would be bothering 
people and I want you to discuss it:

00:16:21.270 --> 00:16:26.253
If Uthman (ra), the Caliph of the Muslims,
was subjected to the gravest injustice,

00:16:26.253 --> 00:16:28.743
and his murderers were known …

00:16:28.743 --> 00:16:31.841
Obviously, Syedna Ali (ra) would have 
been aware of these things.

00:16:31.841 --> 00:16:34.261
All of us deeply revere Ali (ra).

00:16:34.261 --> 00:16:37.391
You, yourself, gave the examples of his 
intellect and knowledge.

00:16:37.391 --> 00:16:38.741
So, how this this happen?

00:16:38.741 --> 00:16:42.741
What, according to you, is the explanation
for the fact that not only did Ali (ra)

00:16:42.741 --> 00:16:46.741
not bring the two to justice after the 
notorious murder of the caliph,

00:16:46.741 --> 00:16:54.191
but he appointed them to important 
positions in his government?

00:16:54.191 --> 00:17:00.021
Do you think there is a justification and 
explanation for Syedna Ali’s (ra) actions?

00:17:00.528 --> 00:17:04.528
[Ghamidi] As I already remarked that 
Maulana Syedna Abul Alaa Maududi

00:17:04.528 --> 00:17:09.668
described his entire case. 
He has defended Ali (ra) in every sense.

00:17:09.668 --> 00:17:12.475
However, he too could not defend 
him on this point.

00:17:12.475 --> 00:17:14.478
Here, he couldn’t defend Ali’s (ra) 
position at all.

00:17:14.478 --> 00:17:18.058
Nonetheless, I would argue that Ali’s (ra)
action, according to me,

00:17:18.058 --> 00:17:19.748
could have a reason of its own.

00:17:19.748 --> 00:17:23.508
In other words, I am claiming that despite
all this, Ali’s (ra) position has a rationale.

00:17:23.508 --> 00:17:25.178
Syedna Ali (ra) made a decision.

00:17:25.178 --> 00:17:27.738
It was the decision of assuming the 
responsibility

00:17:27.738 --> 00:17:29.798
of the government of the Muslim empire.

00:17:29.798 --> 00:17:32.478
There could have been two responses 
to the situation.

00:17:32.478 --> 00:17:36.108
One response would have been this: when 
he was requested to assume

00:17:36.108 --> 00:17:39.028
the responsibility of government, he 
could have refused.

00:17:39.028 --> 00:17:43.348
Instead, he could have said that they must
first wait for the leadership of Quraish

00:17:43.348 --> 00:17:46.408
and the Muslims to arrive from different 
corners of the empire.

00:17:46.408 --> 00:17:50.408
Or, that all the leaders, representatives
of the people should first assemble,

00:17:50.408 --> 00:17:54.408
and then, they could freely elect either 
Ali (ra) or

00:17:54.408 --> 00:17:57.198
anyone else to be the next caliph.

00:17:57.198 --> 00:18:00.649
It could have been the case that on the 
occasion he would not have taken

00:18:00.649 --> 00:18:02.629
control of the reins of the government.

00:18:02.629 --> 00:18:04.879
This could have been one possible response
or decision to the situation.

00:18:04.879 --> 00:18:06.849
However, Ali (ra) did not make this 
decision.

00:18:06.849 --> 00:18:10.509
Although, the events that followed have 
made it clear that the first scenario

00:18:10.509 --> 00:18:12.811
would possibly have been better 
for everyone.

00:18:12.811 --> 00:18:16.811
But, Ali (ra) made a different decision. 
And the decision was this:

00:18:16.811 --> 00:18:20.811
the manner in which the rioters had 
occupied Medina and the way

00:18:20.811 --> 00:18:24.811
the situation has descended into a 
bloodbath in order to rescue

00:18:24.811 --> 00:18:27.231
the Muslim community from the 
catastrophe,

00:18:27.231 --> 00:18:31.935
Ali (ra), with utmost sincerity – and all 
signs point toward his utmost sincerity –

00:18:31.935 --> 00:18:35.935
resolved to assume the responsibility 
of government.

00:18:35.935 --> 00:18:39.486
I have pointed this out earlier as well: 
at the time, Ali (ra) was the most

00:18:39.486 --> 00:18:41.516
exalted personality in the 
Muslim community.

00:18:41.516 --> 00:18:44.996
In other words, it can also become a 
reason for impelling you to action

00:18:44.996 --> 00:18:48.763
when you believe that you are the best 
person upon whom the people could unite.

00:18:48.763 --> 00:18:52.913
On such occasions, you form an opinion.

00:18:53.125 --> 00:18:55.605
He formed an opinion and took over 
the government.

00:18:55.605 --> 00:18:59.485
One of the possible consequences, as he 
assumed the responsibility of government,

00:18:59.485 --> 00:19:02.735
would have been the unanimous 
acceptance of this act by the people.

00:19:02.735 --> 00:19:06.735
In such a scenario, all the people would 
abide by his edicts and

00:19:06.735 --> 00:19:10.735
all the provincial governors would accept 
his command in the same spirit

00:19:10.735 --> 00:19:16.385
as had been the norm during the reign 
of earlier Rightly Guided Caliphs.

00:19:16.634 --> 00:19:20.634
Similarly, people would not have rallied 
against Ali (ra) under Aisha’s (ra) banner

00:19:20.634 --> 00:19:24.634
And Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra) too would 
not have adopted the position they did.

00:19:25.071 --> 00:19:27.009
This could have been one scenario!

00:19:27.321 --> 00:19:31.321
It would have been exactly the same 
scenario that Syedna Omar (ra) described

00:19:31.321 --> 00:19:34.211
with reference to Syedna Abu Bakr’s (ra) 
appointment as the caliph:

00:19:34.211 --> 00:19:39.291
‘I had made an emergency decision 
and Allah saved us from its harm.’

00:19:39.751 --> 00:19:44.791
In Ali’s (ra) case, however, the decision 
he took led, in practical terms, to harm.

00:19:45.243 --> 00:19:48.593
In other words, a lot of people did 
not accept the decision.

00:19:48.593 --> 00:19:51.353
Gradually, the opposition kept growing.

00:19:51.353 --> 00:19:55.353
Obviously, in this backdrop, there was 
just one option left for him:

00:19:55.353 --> 00:19:59.353
to run the administration with the help 
of the people who supported him.

00:19:59.924 --> 00:20:03.924
In other words, as his opponents did 
not accept it and

00:20:03.924 --> 00:20:07.924
he also refused to rescind his decision, 
then he would,

00:20:07.924 --> 00:20:13.195
of course, run the government and 
commandeer his army

00:20:13.195 --> 00:20:18.011
with the same people because they 
accepted his authority in the first stage.

00:20:18.011 --> 00:20:25.200
So for me, such decisions are not barren: 
they have their consequences.

00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.790
And even the greatest of men just 
have to accept the consequences.

00:20:29.790 --> 00:20:33.230
So Ali (ra) seems to have accepted the 
ramifications of his decision.

00:20:33.230 --> 00:20:36.200
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, the explanation 
you just gave illustrates the principle

00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.240
you have been trying to get across to 
the people

00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:39.950
from the beginning of the series:

00:20:39.950 --> 00:20:43.610
that is, instead of looking at an 
individual’s political decisions

00:20:43.610 --> 00:20:47.480
and practical affairs from the viewpoint
of the notion of truth or falsehood,

00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.650
if we approach them 
considering the practical realities,

00:20:50.650 --> 00:20:55.720
expediencies, and constraints within 
a political context,

00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.330
then we can explain all actions.

00:20:59.375 --> 00:21:01.795
However, if you try to frame it within 
a strictly religious discourse and

00:21:01.795 --> 00:21:04.245
start condemning people for their 
perceived moral failures,

00:21:04.245 --> 00:21:07.125
then every single individual becomes 
susceptible to the greatest condemnation.

00:21:07.125 --> 00:21:11.125
[Ghamidi] If we adopt this approach, 
then we might even have to discuss

00:21:11.125 --> 00:21:15.125
certain measures taken by Omar (ra) 
and Abu Bakr (ra) as well.

00:21:15.370 --> 00:21:19.370
And political expediencies are kept in 
consideration in political actions.

00:21:19.489 --> 00:21:21.659
At times, many things have to be 
kept in consideration…

00:21:21.659 --> 00:21:26.549
Look, even the Prophet (pbuh) had to 
take care of certain things:

00:21:26.549 --> 00:21:29.109
We know that Abdullah bin Ubay 
adopted a malicious approach

00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:30.489
toward the Prophet (pbuh).

00:21:30.489 --> 00:21:34.489
During the Expedition of Banu Mustaliq, 
he instigated people

00:21:34.489 --> 00:21:36.239
against the Prophet (pbuh).

00:21:36.239 --> 00:21:41.559
And we also know that he uttered 
a poisonous sentence –

00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:44.879
and the Quran has reproduced the 
sentence –

00:21:44.879 --> 00:21:47.739
that could be considered insolence 
and insult of the last degree.

00:21:47.739 --> 00:21:50.628
Quran has reproduced the sentence 
he uttered in Surah al-Munafiqun.

00:21:50.628 --> 00:21:55.998
However, despite the fact that 
Abdullah bin Ubay’s son offered

00:21:55.998 --> 00:22:00.468
to behead his father, the Prophet 
(pbuh) refused.

00:22:00.468 --> 00:22:02.288
He declined his offer and replied:

00:22:02.288 --> 00:22:05.223
‘People would say that Muhammad 
kills his companions!’

00:22:05.223 --> 00:22:08.993
Thus, in political matters, certain things
have to be similarly overlooked.

00:22:08.993 --> 00:22:12.582
However, Uthman’s murder pertained to the 
questions of retributive justice (qisas).

00:22:12.582 --> 00:22:15.572
The former case pertains to Abdullah 
bin Ubay’s insolence.

00:22:15.572 --> 00:22:19.572
It was such a matter in which you 
could not identify a specific crime.

00:22:19.846 --> 00:22:21.516
Thus, it was overlooked.

00:22:21.516 --> 00:22:25.516
However, qisas has an irreducible 
moral dimension.

00:22:25.516 --> 00:22:31.010
So, the matters that pertain to moral 
questions may be delayed…

00:22:31.010 --> 00:22:35.010
And in my view, Ali’s (ra) decision was

00:22:35.010 --> 00:22:38.830
not to let Uthman’s (ra) murderers 
off the hook.

00:22:38.850 --> 00:22:41.280
However, he delayed the delivery 
of justice.

00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:44.100
And he repeatedly underscored the 
reasons for the delay:

00:22:44.100 --> 00:22:52.010
I can only execute this task if you accept
my decision and come to my assistance!

00:22:52.010 --> 00:22:54.330
So, this is the plea Ali (ra) is making…

00:22:54.330 --> 00:22:57.360
He did not evade the issue of delivering 
justice to Uthman (ra).

00:22:57.360 --> 00:23:02.330
The point I am trying to clarify is this: 
the attitude has developed

00:23:02.330 --> 00:23:06.330
in our society to judge and condemn 
one or the other party.

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:10.330
However, in such sensitive matters 
the positions of and the constraints

00:23:10.330 --> 00:23:12.690
upon every group must be kept in 
consideration.

00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:16.410
And in today’s world, when we form 
opinions and make decisions

00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:19.130
about political matters, we take all 
these factors into consideration.

00:23:19.130 --> 00:23:23.130
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you provided the 
explanation and

00:23:23.130 --> 00:23:27.130
justification of Ali’s (ra) steps, which 
according to you, Maulana Maududi,

00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:29.850
who stands opposite to you in 
the entire matter, couldn’t offer.

00:23:29.850 --> 00:23:33.640
But you have highlighted a new and 
unique dimension for the people

00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:36.780
whom you are trying to teach the art 
of assessing the positions

00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:39.420
of the opposing sides in an 
unbiased manner.

00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.075
We shall take the conversation forward.

00:23:41.075 --> 00:23:44.555
Inshallah, in the next episode, we shall 
ask you about Muawiya (ra),

00:23:44.555 --> 00:23:47.975
whom we give a lot of leeway that there 
was no house of representatives

00:23:47.975 --> 00:23:51.745
in that age. However, the empire had 
already expanded when Uthman (ra)

00:23:51.745 --> 00:23:54.225
was elected as the caliph, but still a 
scientific approach was adopted

00:23:54.225 --> 00:23:55.459
to choose the new ruler.

00:23:55.459 --> 00:23:57.439
Why did Muawiya (ra) not adopt the 
same approach and

00:23:57.439 --> 00:23:59.274
why did he insist on transferring 
the government to Yazid?

00:23:59.274 --> 00:24:00.465
All these topics shall be brought 
under discussion.

00:24:00.465 --> 00:24:04.465
We are running out of time. 
We shall take your leave. Allah Hafiz!