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[Hasan Ilyas] In the name of Allah, the[br]most Gracious, the most Merciful!

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Assalamu Alaikum. We are coming to you [br]directly from Ghamidi Center, Dallas

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with this weekly question-answer session [br]with Ghamidi Sahab.

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Let us begin…[br]Ghamidi Sahab, thanks a lot for your time.

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The chain of our conversation continues [br]about your viewpoint of the conflict

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between Syedna Ali (ra) and [br]Ameer Muawiya (ra).

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Today, this is the fifteenth episode [br]of the series.

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I am presenting to you, one by one, the [br]questions regarding certain doubts and

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objections that people have raised[br]about your discourse.

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In our last conversation, we comprehended [br]certain important points.

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And I will start by linking up our today’s[br]conversation to the last conversation.

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While being a governor of a province, [br]Syedna Muawiya (ra) demanded retaliation

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from Syedna Ali (ra) against the murderers[br]of Uthman (ra).

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Does this not imply that he considered Ali[br](ra) to be the ruler of the Muslim nation

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and that he considered his government to [br]be an established political fact since

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he is making the demand of Ali (ra) [br]to punish the murderers?

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Had Muawiya (ra) not made the demand, [br]it could have been said that Ali’s (ra)

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government had not been fully established [br]and that

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it was a chaotic situation all around.

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However, the moment Muawiya (ra) put [br]forth his demand it becomes obvious that

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he accepts Ali (ra) as the ruler and is [br]demanding of him to ‘retaliate’ (qisas)

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against Uthman’s (ra) murderers which only[br]the ruler of the Muslims could do?

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[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Muawiya (ra) is [br]making this demand on the basis

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of Ali’s (ra) claim that his government [br]has become established.

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And if it is claimed that the government [br]has been (firmly) established,

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one of its self-evident proofs would be to[br]mete out the

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just punishment to the criminals.’

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‘Otherwise, we have no personal animosity [br]against you.’

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‘We shall accept your government.’

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It is the approach that if a government is[br]established and

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you are hesitant about its establishment [br]or you have some objections regarding it.

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In that case, how are you manifesting [br]your objection?

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In other words, do you object to the [br]person of the ruler?

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If you object to the person of the ruler.

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For instance, a number of people object to[br]many of later rulers as

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individual persons as well: it is believed[br]that a certain person was not fit to rule

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because of his personality, or character, [br]or his lack of political acumen, etc.

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In those cases, it is the opposition to [br]the person of the ruler.

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I have stated this earlier as well that [br]whether it was Muawiya (ra), or

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Syeda Aisha (ra) or Syedna Talha (ra), or [br]Zubair (ra), none of them argued that

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Syedna Ali (ra) was not fit to be [br]the Caliph of the Muslims.

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Instead, they argue that you are of course[br]eligible to be the caliph and

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we have no objections to your person.

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However, from among necessary conditions [br]for the establishment of a government,

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we are demanding of you that you [br]fulfill one important condition.

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Why are governments established at all?

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They are established to curb the abuse [br]of power.

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It is the fundamental objective of the [br]establishment of government to be

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in a position to punish the criminals.

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However, if a government is not in a [br]position to punish the criminals

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although, you can claim that it is in the [br]process of establishing itself,

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but you cannot say it has been fully [br]established as a fiat accompli.

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Thus, they put forward their case with [br]the same reasoning.

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Even today, if a situation of emergency [br]erupts and someone takes over

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the government, then we too shall demand [br]of them to prove their fitness

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for legislation, application of the law, [br]and for the re-establishment of order.

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And only then would the government would [br]be accepted – if only in de facto terms.

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So, they are basically making this case.

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How does it imply that they accepted

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Ali’s (ra) government as an established [br]political fact?

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If indeed Muawiya (ra) had accepted [br]Ali’s (ra) government,

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then his first task would have [br]been to give up his position

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as the governor of Syria, as Ali (ra) [br]had instructed him to do.

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He did no such thing!

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Instead, positioning himself as the [br]governor of Levant, he asked Ali (ra),

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who had assumed the caliphal office, the [br]proof that

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his power was actually established. [br][Ilyas] Alright…

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Let us move the conversation forward, [br]Ghamidi Sahab.

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It is clear that Muawiya’s (ra) demand did[br]not begin after

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accepting Ali’s (ra) government;

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In fact, the demand is the condition for [br]the acceptance of government:

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'Only after the fulfillment of this [br]condition would

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the other matters be settled.’

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However, the matter was not settled and [br]the dispute reached into the battlefield.

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As the dispute reached the battlefield, [br]and this is also a generally accepted

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historical fact, that those demanding [br]retaliation against the

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murderers of Uthman (ra) and the removal [br]from office of people who had surrounded

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Syedna Ali, (ra),[br]they lost in the battlefield.

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You had described the principle in detail [br]that whenever something like this happens.

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And it proves that Ali’s (ra) government [br]had become established.

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In other words, it existed as a de facto [br]reality and that is how he won the war.

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After all this, the matter should have [br]moved toward settlement…

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The results of the battlefield went in [br]favor of Ali (ra).

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Thus, once the battlefield decided the [br]matter in Ali’s (ra) favor,

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what excuse was left for Muawiya (ra) to[br]still not accept the government

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as a de facto reality? [br][Ghamidi] What was the verdict exactly?

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The verdict was this: Ali (ra) himself [br]accepted to appoint arbiters to decide

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the legality or illegality of his [br]government.

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It was after the Battle of Siffin that [br]the arbiters were appointed.

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What exactly do you accept when you [br]accept arbitration?

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Have you ever reflected on this point?

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It means that you have accepted that [br]you no longer insist on taking

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your government as a de facto reality.

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Instead, the verdict of whether or not to [br]accept the government

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shall be entrusted to certain arbiters.

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Therefore, two people were nominated to [br]be the arbiters in the dispute.

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The clauses of arbitration were drawn up.

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Abu Musa Ashari (ra) was nominated from [br]Ali’s (ra) side

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and Amr bin al ‘As (ra)[br]was nominated from Muawiya’s (ra) side.

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Both were allowed a fixed time period [br]which spanned across many months.

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And, then, it was specified that they [br]would proclaim their verdict in front

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of four hundred people and in that [br]assembly they would give their verdict

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about the rights and wrongs of the dispute[br]and how it should be resolved!

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Therefore, the moment you accept [br]arbitration,

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the legitimacy of your government becomes[br]debatable as a result of your admission.

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If, however, a different scenario would [br]have emerged:

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Muawiya’s (ra) side lost on the [br]battlefield, his men ran away,

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Ali’s (ra) forces captured his territory, [br]and he was able to establish

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the writ of his government throughout [br]the empire.

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In that case, the matter would have [br]been decisively settled.

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So, what was the upshot of the [br]Battle of Siffin?

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And it should also be kept in mind, in the[br]Battle of Siffin,

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the opposing side was not fighting to [br]overtake Ali’s (ra) government.

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Instead, it was Ali’s (ra) position – and [br]he was absolutely sincere in his position

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that his government had been legitimately [br]established and he wanted to enforce

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the writ of his government.

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For this reason, he changed the governors [br]of the provinces too and when Muawiya (ra)

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refused to comply with his order, it was [br]Ali (ra)

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who initiated the hostilities in Siffin.

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And because of this attack, at one point, [br]the opposing side proposed this:

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people, including the Companions, are [br]being martyred in large numbers

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and it would only perpetuate the civil [br]war; instead, is it not better to settle

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this dispute by making the Quran the [br]final arbiter?

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When this proposal was put forward from [br]the opposing side,

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Ali (ra), himself, accepted it.

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People neglect this point that when a [br]ruler accepts arbitration upon whether

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or not his government is a de facto [br]political fact and whether the steps

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he took were legitimate or not, and now[br]arbitrators will make a ruling on it,

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you can imagine the situation.

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So, the matter is not as simple [br]as it seems.

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[Ilyas] Alright. [br]Let us move ahead, Ghamidi Sahab!

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A new point of view has emerged in [br]the last few days…

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It has been stated that the way you [br]portray the matter that it pertains

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to real historical events, wherein the [br]partisans had their principled positions

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and both were sincerely taking certain [br]practical measures based

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on those principled positions.

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Instead, why can’t we say that the large [br]group of the companions

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who supported Muawiya, along with the [br]suggestions he might have gotten

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from the earlier caliphs, combined to [br]deliberately keep the Hashemites,

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i.e., the family of the Prophet (pbuh), [br]away from power?

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It is because once they had gained [br]political power, then,

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because of their status in the eyes of [br]the people due to their descent

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from the Prophet (pbuh), it would have [br]been difficult to wrest it back.

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Therefore, these factors were at work [br]in Muawiya’s (ra) actions and

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in the struggle to seek tribal supremacy[br]among the Umayyads.

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How do you see this line of thinking?

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[Ghamidi] First, you have to tell me [br]when did this “conspiracy”

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to keep the Hashemites out of power begin?

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Did it begin with Abu Bakr’s (ra) [br]election as the Caliph?

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Abu Bakr (ra) was the most exalted [br]companion in the whole umma.

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No person could have the temerity to [br]claim that in Abu Bakr (ra)

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such a man was elected as the Caliph [br]who was not eligible for it.

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Not only did all the companions assent [br]to the election,

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a person like Omar (ra) stated that he [br]proposed the same of such a personality

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that tukta’ul aana qi’lay (people’s necks [br]would bow in front of him).

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In fact, people, subsequently, accepted [br]him in the same station.

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And the way Abu Bakr (ra) ruled also [br]proved his illustriousness.

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Therefore, nobody can be bold enough to [br]claim any of this about Abu Bakr (ra).

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I have already described the election of [br]Omar (ra) that how Abu Bakr (ra)

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invited the entire leadership of the [br]Quraish, put forth his proposal to them,

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listened to the opinions and suggestions [br]of every single one of them,

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and replied to the objections that were [br]raised.

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Only then the final decision was made.

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In this case as well, no such thing was [br]under discussion from which

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one could conclude a deliberate attempt [br]to exclude the Hashemites from power.

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At the most, you could say, at the time [br]of Uthman’s (ra) election,

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when Abdul Rahman bin Awf (ra) was [br]given the authority to choose,

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he might have kept these things in view.

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However, it does not make any difference [br]because whenever you form an opinion

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about anyone at all, you take dozens [br]of factors into consideration.

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So, all these hypotheses can be discussed [br]only with reference to the election

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of the first three caliphs.

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And they would be assessed in accordance [br]with the evidence pertaining

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to the three occasions.

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In Muawiya’s (ra) case, what right do [br]we have to speculate about

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a different opinion than his stated [br]position that is in front of us?

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Did he ever claim that they have decided [br]to keep the Hashemites out of power?

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A power struggle was going on.[br]There is no doubt about it.

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In this backdrop, the establishment of [br]Ali’s (ra) government was announced.

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And a lot of people accepted the new [br]government.

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On the back of a large force, Ali (ra) [br]managed to consolidate his power

0:11:17.382,0:11:21.382
over a large territorial span. [br]Muawiya (ra) put forward a demand.

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And the Mother of the Believers, Syeda [br]Aisha (ra) too pressed the same demand.

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She is not an ordinary woman.

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It was an extraordinary decision on part [br]of Aisha (ra),

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keeping in view her juristic mind, her[br]judgments,

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and her insight in politics and strategy.

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And two of the most prominent people [br]from the council that elected Ali (ra),

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i.e., Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra), also [br]joined her in her opposition to Ali (ra).

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So, did all these people come together to [br]conspire

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to keep the Hashemites out of power?

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However, whenever it comes to the [br]point of election and

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when we vote in somebody’s favor, we [br]take dozens of factors into consideration.

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Let me give you a fresh example of this [br]phenomenon.

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Say, elections are going on in our [br]country.

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A number of political parties operate [br]in the country.

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In this backdrop, there is a person who [br]maintains,

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irrespective of his other preferences, [br]he won’t vote for certain parties because,

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according to him, they have become [br]hereditary parties.

0:12:24.147,0:12:26.487
Thus, it can be one important factor [br]determining one’s political preference.

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So, it is possible that some people would [br]have considered

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this factor back then as well.

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However, to consider that it was the [br]only determining factor and

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the sole basis of everything that [br]happened; that everyone came together

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and decided to keep the Hashemites [br]out; and that it was a planned conspiracy

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from the very beginning; etc.

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In my opinion, to make such a far-reaching[br]claim,

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one needs a rather staggering amount [br]of evidence than is generally cited.

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[Ilyas] Alright. [br]Moving forward, Ghamidi Sahab.

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The most important point of our entire [br]conversation,

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the point around which all our explanation[br]and

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all the positions of the partisans revolve[br]and the point that affords

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all sides some benefit of doubt and that is[br]the storm that manifested itself

0:13:02.687,0:13:04.947
in the shape of Uthman’s (ra) murder.

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The question arises in everyone’s mind, [br]whoever has heard your position

0:13:10.687,0:13:12.547
in these fifteen episodes, is this:

0:13:12.547,0:13:19.147
One party is demanding retaliation against[br]the murderers of Uthman (ra).

0:13:19.437,0:13:23.437
However, when the party making the [br]demand comes to power…

0:13:23.437,0:13:27.437
Muawiya (ra) ruled for nineteen years [br]and the reason for his coming to power

0:13:27.437,0:13:30.107
was the dispute around Uthman’s (ra) [br]murder.

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So, if it was not the desire for power and[br]become the ruler of the empire,

0:13:37.867,0:13:41.053
then what became of the real reason [br]for coming to power?

0:13:41.053,0:13:43.633
In other words, what became of Uthman’s[br](ra) murderers in Muawiya’s (ra) reign?

0:13:43.633,0:13:46.253
Muawiya (ra) reigned for 19 years [br]without sharing power with anyone.

0:13:46.253,0:13:49.943
What did he do about the event that led [br]to everything:

0:13:49.943,0:13:53.203
the Battle of the Camel, the Battle of [br]Siffin, and the endless bloodshed

0:13:53.203,0:13:54.515
within the Muslim community?

0:13:54.515,0:13:57.614
[Ghamidi] There were two types of [br]people among Uthman’s (ra) murderers.

0:13:57.614,0:14:00.094
You are familiar, of course, that the [br]incident took the shape of a riot.

0:14:00.094,0:14:01.894
A mob fell upon the city.

0:14:01.894,0:14:08.994
And it was not a couple of men who broke [br]into Uthman’s (ra) house; it was a mob.

0:14:08.994,0:14:13.654
There are two salient names when [br]it comes to who, from the mob,

0:14:13.654,0:14:17.254
laid their hands upon and murdered [br]Uthman (ra).

0:14:17.782,0:14:20.940
One is Muhammad bin Abi Bakr.

0:14:20.940,0:14:27.293
He was the Abu Bakr’s (ra) son and [br]was brought up by Syedna Ali (ra) himself.

0:14:28.029,0:14:33.885
After Abu Bakr’s (ra) death, Ali (ra) [br]had married his widow.

0:14:33.885,0:14:37.315
So, Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was brought [br]up in Syedna Ali’s (ra) household.

0:14:37.315,0:14:40.645
Second was Malik al-Ashtar.

0:14:40.645,0:14:47.255
Both these men could be pointed out [br]as Uthman’s murderers!

0:14:47.764,0:14:51.324
There would, of course, have been a [br]trial first and only then action

0:14:51.324,0:14:53.824
could be taken against them. [br]These were the two people.

0:14:53.824,0:14:56.694
How conspicuous were these two [br]people as Uthman’s murderers?

0:14:56.694,0:14:59.904
You can get a sense of this from that fact[br]that our venerated scholar,

0:14:59.904,0:15:03.904
Maulana Syed Abul Alaa Maududi, who, [br]as compared to mine,

0:15:03.904,0:15:07.904
was making a different case altogether.

0:15:07.904,0:15:11.904
He too was forced to remark: ‘I can [br]explain and justify every action

0:15:11.904,0:15:15.904
taken by Ali (ra), except the position [br]he bestowed upon the two.’

0:15:15.904,0:15:20.841
Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was appointed as [br]the governor of Egypt later on.

0:15:20.841,0:15:22.884
[Ilyas] It happened after Uthman’s (ra) [br]murder?

0:15:22.884,0:15:26.884
[Ghamidi] Of course. After Uthman’s (ra) [br]murder, when Ali (ra) formed his government.

0:15:26.884,0:15:29.554
He would appoint governors after he has [br]formed the government, right?

0:15:29.554,0:15:31.304
They were so conspicuous.

0:15:31.304,0:15:33.774
And both of them were dead when [br]Muawiya (ra) became the sole ruler.

0:15:33.774,0:15:34.964
Now, we are left with others.

0:15:34.964,0:15:38.964
The problem was that there was no [br]certainty who among the other people

0:15:38.964,0:15:42.964
was involved in the murder. [br]It was an open question.

0:15:42.964,0:15:46.294
In fact, if you read the history, you would[br]come to know whenever

0:15:46.294,0:15:51.114
it was found out that someone was involved[br]in the murder, he was brought to justice.

0:15:51.762,0:15:55.762
You will find all the details of these [br]events in a number of historical tracts.

0:15:55.965,0:15:59.965
However, two conspicuous perpetrators [br]who should have been apprehended

0:15:59.965,0:16:04.735
and who were closest to Ali (ra) at the [br]time, both those men were dead

0:16:04.735,0:16:06.955
by the time Muawiya came to power.

0:16:06.955,0:16:13.175
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you give a rational[br]explanation of every partisan’s position

0:16:13.175,0:16:16.245
based on the available evidence.

0:16:17.270,0:16:21.270
I am sure the question would be bothering [br]people and I want you to discuss it:

0:16:21.270,0:16:26.253
If Uthman (ra), the Caliph of the Muslims,[br]was subjected to the gravest injustice,

0:16:26.253,0:16:28.743
and his murderers were known …

0:16:28.743,0:16:31.841
Obviously, Syedna Ali (ra) would have [br]been aware of these things.

0:16:31.841,0:16:34.261
All of us deeply revere Ali (ra).

0:16:34.261,0:16:37.391
You, yourself, gave the examples of his [br]intellect and knowledge.

0:16:37.391,0:16:38.741
So, how this this happen?

0:16:38.741,0:16:42.741
What, according to you, is the explanation[br]for the fact that not only did Ali (ra)

0:16:42.741,0:16:46.741
not bring the two to justice after the [br]notorious murder of the caliph,

0:16:46.741,0:16:54.191
but he appointed them to important [br]positions in his government?

0:16:54.191,0:17:00.021
Do you think there is a justification and [br]explanation for Syedna Ali’s (ra) actions?

0:17:00.528,0:17:04.528
[Ghamidi] As I already remarked that [br]Maulana Syedna Abul Alaa Maududi

0:17:04.528,0:17:09.668
described his entire case. [br]He has defended Ali (ra) in every sense.

0:17:09.668,0:17:12.475
However, he too could not defend [br]him on this point.

0:17:12.475,0:17:14.478
Here, he couldn’t defend Ali’s (ra) [br]position at all.

0:17:14.478,0:17:18.058
Nonetheless, I would argue that Ali’s (ra)[br]action, according to me,

0:17:18.058,0:17:19.748
could have a reason of its own.

0:17:19.748,0:17:23.508
In other words, I am claiming that despite[br]all this, Ali’s (ra) position has a rationale.

0:17:23.508,0:17:25.178
Syedna Ali (ra) made a decision.

0:17:25.178,0:17:27.738
It was the decision of assuming the [br]responsibility

0:17:27.738,0:17:29.798
of the government of the Muslim empire.

0:17:29.798,0:17:32.478
There could have been two responses [br]to the situation.

0:17:32.478,0:17:36.108
One response would have been this: when [br]he was requested to assume

0:17:36.108,0:17:39.028
the responsibility of government, he [br]could have refused.

0:17:39.028,0:17:43.348
Instead, he could have said that they must[br]first wait for the leadership of Quraish

0:17:43.348,0:17:46.408
and the Muslims to arrive from different [br]corners of the empire.

0:17:46.408,0:17:50.408
Or, that all the leaders, representatives[br]of the people should first assemble,

0:17:50.408,0:17:54.408
and then, they could freely elect either [br]Ali (ra) or

0:17:54.408,0:17:57.198
anyone else to be the next caliph.

0:17:57.198,0:18:00.649
It could have been the case that on the [br]occasion he would not have taken

0:18:00.649,0:18:02.629
control of the reins of the government.

0:18:02.629,0:18:04.879
This could have been one possible response[br]or decision to the situation.

0:18:04.879,0:18:06.849
However, Ali (ra) did not make this [br]decision.

0:18:06.849,0:18:10.509
Although, the events that followed have [br]made it clear that the first scenario

0:18:10.509,0:18:12.811
would possibly have been better [br]for everyone.

0:18:12.811,0:18:16.811
But, Ali (ra) made a different decision. [br]And the decision was this:

0:18:16.811,0:18:20.811
the manner in which the rioters had [br]occupied Medina and the way

0:18:20.811,0:18:24.811
the situation has descended into a [br]bloodbath in order to rescue

0:18:24.811,0:18:27.231
the Muslim community from the [br]catastrophe,

0:18:27.231,0:18:31.935
Ali (ra), with utmost sincerity – and all [br]signs point toward his utmost sincerity –

0:18:31.935,0:18:35.935
resolved to assume the responsibility [br]of government.

0:18:35.935,0:18:39.486
I have pointed this out earlier as well: [br]at the time, Ali (ra) was the most

0:18:39.486,0:18:41.516
exalted personality in the [br]Muslim community.

0:18:41.516,0:18:44.996
In other words, it can also become a [br]reason for impelling you to action

0:18:44.996,0:18:48.763
when you believe that you are the best [br]person upon whom the people could unite.

0:18:48.763,0:18:52.913
On such occasions, you form an opinion.

0:18:53.125,0:18:55.605
He formed an opinion and took over [br]the government.

0:18:55.605,0:18:59.485
One of the possible consequences, as he [br]assumed the responsibility of government,

0:18:59.485,0:19:02.735
would have been the unanimous [br]acceptance of this act by the people.

0:19:02.735,0:19:06.735
In such a scenario, all the people would [br]abide by his edicts and

0:19:06.735,0:19:10.735
all the provincial governors would accept [br]his command in the same spirit

0:19:10.735,0:19:16.385
as had been the norm during the reign [br]of earlier Rightly Guided Caliphs.

0:19:16.634,0:19:20.634
Similarly, people would not have rallied [br]against Ali (ra) under Aisha’s (ra) banner

0:19:20.634,0:19:24.634
And Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra) too would [br]not have adopted the position they did.

0:19:25.071,0:19:27.009
This could have been one scenario!

0:19:27.321,0:19:31.321
It would have been exactly the same [br]scenario that Syedna Omar (ra) described

0:19:31.321,0:19:34.211
with reference to Syedna Abu Bakr’s (ra) [br]appointment as the caliph:

0:19:34.211,0:19:39.291
‘I had made an emergency decision [br]and Allah saved us from its harm.’

0:19:39.751,0:19:44.791
In Ali’s (ra) case, however, the decision [br]he took led, in practical terms, to harm.

0:19:45.243,0:19:48.593
In other words, a lot of people did [br]not accept the decision.

0:19:48.593,0:19:51.353
Gradually, the opposition kept growing.

0:19:51.353,0:19:55.353
Obviously, in this backdrop, there was [br]just one option left for him:

0:19:55.353,0:19:59.353
to run the administration with the help [br]of the people who supported him.

0:19:59.924,0:20:03.924
In other words, as his opponents did [br]not accept it and

0:20:03.924,0:20:07.924
he also refused to rescind his decision, [br]then he would,

0:20:07.924,0:20:13.195
of course, run the government and [br]commandeer his army

0:20:13.195,0:20:18.011
with the same people because they [br]accepted his authority in the first stage.

0:20:18.011,0:20:25.200
So for me, such decisions are not barren: [br]they have their consequences.

0:20:25.200,0:20:29.790
And even the greatest of men just [br]have to accept the consequences.

0:20:29.790,0:20:33.230
So Ali (ra) seems to have accepted the [br]ramifications of his decision.

0:20:33.230,0:20:36.200
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, the explanation [br]you just gave illustrates the principle

0:20:36.200,0:20:38.240
you have been trying to get across to [br]the people

0:20:38.240,0:20:39.950
from the beginning of the series:

0:20:39.950,0:20:43.610
that is, instead of looking at an [br]individual’s political decisions

0:20:43.610,0:20:47.480
and practical affairs from the viewpoint[br]of the notion of truth or falsehood,

0:20:47.480,0:20:50.650
if we approach them [br]considering the practical realities,

0:20:50.650,0:20:55.720
expediencies, and constraints within [br]a political context,

0:20:55.720,0:20:59.330
then we can explain all actions.

0:20:59.375,0:21:01.795
However, if you try to frame it within [br]a strictly religious discourse and

0:21:01.795,0:21:04.245
start condemning people for their [br]perceived moral failures,

0:21:04.245,0:21:07.125
then every single individual becomes [br]susceptible to the greatest condemnation.

0:21:07.125,0:21:11.125
[Ghamidi] If we adopt this approach, [br]then we might even have to discuss

0:21:11.125,0:21:15.125
certain measures taken by Omar (ra) [br]and Abu Bakr (ra) as well.

0:21:15.370,0:21:19.370
And political expediencies are kept in [br]consideration in political actions.

0:21:19.489,0:21:21.659
At times, many things have to be [br]kept in consideration…

0:21:21.659,0:21:26.549
Look, even the Prophet (pbuh) had to [br]take care of certain things:

0:21:26.549,0:21:29.109
We know that Abdullah bin Ubay [br]adopted a malicious approach

0:21:29.109,0:21:30.489
toward the Prophet (pbuh).

0:21:30.489,0:21:34.489
During the Expedition of Banu Mustaliq, [br]he instigated people

0:21:34.489,0:21:36.239
against the Prophet (pbuh).

0:21:36.239,0:21:41.559
And we also know that he uttered [br]a poisonous sentence –

0:21:41.559,0:21:44.879
and the Quran has reproduced the [br]sentence –

0:21:44.879,0:21:47.739
that could be considered insolence [br]and insult of the last degree.

0:21:47.739,0:21:50.628
Quran has reproduced the sentence [br]he uttered in Surah al-Munafiqun.

0:21:50.628,0:21:55.998
However, despite the fact that [br]Abdullah bin Ubay’s son offered

0:21:55.998,0:22:00.468
to behead his father, the Prophet [br](pbuh) refused.

0:22:00.468,0:22:02.288
He declined his offer and replied:

0:22:02.288,0:22:05.223
‘People would say that Muhammad [br]kills his companions!’

0:22:05.223,0:22:08.993
Thus, in political matters, certain things[br]have to be similarly overlooked.

0:22:08.993,0:22:12.582
However, Uthman’s murder pertained to the [br]questions of retributive justice (qisas).

0:22:12.582,0:22:15.572
The former case pertains to Abdullah [br]bin Ubay’s insolence.

0:22:15.572,0:22:19.572
It was such a matter in which you [br]could not identify a specific crime.

0:22:19.846,0:22:21.516
Thus, it was overlooked.

0:22:21.516,0:22:25.516
However, qisas has an irreducible [br]moral dimension.

0:22:25.516,0:22:31.010
So, the matters that pertain to moral [br]questions may be delayed…

0:22:31.010,0:22:35.010
And in my view, Ali’s (ra) decision was

0:22:35.010,0:22:38.830
not to let Uthman’s (ra) murderers [br]off the hook.

0:22:38.850,0:22:41.280
However, he delayed the delivery [br]of justice.

0:22:41.280,0:22:44.100
And he repeatedly underscored the [br]reasons for the delay:

0:22:44.100,0:22:52.010
I can only execute this task if you accept[br]my decision and come to my assistance!

0:22:52.010,0:22:54.330
So, this is the plea Ali (ra) is making…

0:22:54.330,0:22:57.360
He did not evade the issue of delivering [br]justice to Uthman (ra).

0:22:57.360,0:23:02.330
The point I am trying to clarify is this: [br]the attitude has developed

0:23:02.330,0:23:06.330
in our society to judge and condemn [br]one or the other party.

0:23:06.330,0:23:10.330
However, in such sensitive matters [br]the positions of and the constraints

0:23:10.330,0:23:12.690
upon every group must be kept in [br]consideration.

0:23:12.690,0:23:16.410
And in today’s world, when we form [br]opinions and make decisions

0:23:16.410,0:23:19.130
about political matters, we take all [br]these factors into consideration.

0:23:19.130,0:23:23.130
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you provided the [br]explanation and

0:23:23.130,0:23:27.130
justification of Ali’s (ra) steps, which [br]according to you, Maulana Maududi,

0:23:27.130,0:23:29.850
who stands opposite to you in [br]the entire matter, couldn’t offer.

0:23:29.850,0:23:33.640
But you have highlighted a new and [br]unique dimension for the people

0:23:33.640,0:23:36.780
whom you are trying to teach the art [br]of assessing the positions

0:23:36.780,0:23:39.420
of the opposing sides in an [br]unbiased manner.

0:23:39.420,0:23:41.075
We shall take the conversation forward.

0:23:41.075,0:23:44.555
Inshallah, in the next episode, we shall [br]ask you about Muawiya (ra),

0:23:44.555,0:23:47.975
whom we give a lot of leeway that there [br]was no house of representatives

0:23:47.975,0:23:51.745
in that age. However, the empire had [br]already expanded when Uthman (ra)

0:23:51.745,0:23:54.225
was elected as the caliph, but still a [br]scientific approach was adopted

0:23:54.225,0:23:55.459
to choose the new ruler.

0:23:55.459,0:23:57.439
Why did Muawiya (ra) not adopt the [br]same approach and

0:23:57.439,0:23:59.274
why did he insist on transferring [br]the government to Yazid?

0:23:59.274,0:24:00.465
All these topics shall be brought [br]under discussion.

0:24:00.465,0:24:04.465
We are running out of time. [br]We shall take your leave. Allah Hafiz!